GB 151 Popcorn, Pumpkins TRANSCRIPT
29:40
SPEAKERS
Debbie Flower, Lisa in Carmichael (CA), Warren Roberts, Farmer Fred
Farmer Fred 00:00
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.
Farmer Fred 00:32
Today we feature two garden crops that might still be lingering at your place, outdoors or indoors. It's popcorn and pumpkins. The plant of the week is that Halloween decoration that's collecting mold on your front porch right now, pumpkins. But it's more than something to be used as an October 31 ornament. UC Davis Arboretum superintendent emeritus Warren Roberts discusses the history of the pumpkin and the vital uses it has served humans for more than 1000 years. Plus, it's kind of tasty too. We're still getting questions from gardeners about their outdoor popcorn crop here in USDA zone nine. Retired college horticulture Professor Debbie flower and I have tips for harvesting and enjoying this versatile crop. And we have a few warnings to pass along as well. Podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the abutilon jungle in suburban Purgatory, it's episode 151 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we'll do it all in under 30 minutes. Let's go.
Lisa in Carmichael (CA) 01:38
Hi, Fred. I understand you're our area's popcorn celebrity. So I have some questions. I grew strawberry popcorn in Smart Pots in my Carmichael backyard this year. And I'm trying to decide when and how to harvest dry, etc. The husks are starting to turn brown and the kernels are hard, but they don't come off the cob easily yet. After I picked them, should I leave them in the husk and let them dry for a longer time? Can I pop them on the cob in the microwave just by putting them in a paper bag? And is there anything else you would recommend that I do? They're super cute. And I'm really excited. Thanks.
Farmer Fred 02:17
Oh, we love super cute popcorn. It's fun to grow. Debbie Flower is here. Our favorite retired college horticultural professor. And Debbie, growing your own popcorn is fun. But there are certain steps you have to take along the way. And one of the critical times is at harvest time. And a lot of people wait too long or don't wait long enough to harvest. They're thinking in terms of sweet corn. But when it comes to popcorn, you can wait for that entire stock to turn brown. In our area, that's usually the first week of baseball playoffs in October, you would just snap off or cut off the ear, husk and all, and put it in a place where there's good air circulation and let it dry for a couple of weeks because what you're trying to achieve is a moisture consistency of somewhere between 13 and 17%.
Debbie Flower 03:12
Oh, of course. Yeah. You definitely know more about growing popcorn than I do. I just understand that the reason it pops is that the outer coating on each kernel gets to be so hard that the water when you heat it, the water inside boils and it causes the explosion of the kernel.
Farmer Fred 03:33
Hence, if you let it get too dry, it won't pop.
Debbie Flower 03:37
Not enough moisture to cause the boiling.
Farmer Fred 03:39
And if you harvest it when there's way too much moisture, it only opens a slight bit haha. So that 13 to 17% moisture level. I mean, if you want to spend the money you can buy a popcorn moisture meter
Debbie Flower 03:53
really? Wow.
Farmer Fred 03:54
But I wouldn't go that far. I think all you really need to do is try it on your stovetop. After you've harvested those ears with the husks still on, just put them in a place I like to put them in orange bags. I used to say pantyhose but nobody knows what that is anymore.
Debbie Flower 04:10
Or or sweet potato bags.
Farmer Fred 04:12
Yeah, sweet potato bag, something that has good air circulation bag, right? Anything where they can get some good air circulation, I would leave it there for a week or two. And then open up the husks and take a handful of kernels. Five, six or seven kernels and stick them on the stovetop in a pan with a little bit of oil in it. Let the oil heat up first. Throw in those kernels. If they pop together, that's a good sign. If they're fully opened, it's ready. If on the other hand, they only open up a little bit, they're not ready yet. So use that as a guide. Now let's say they do open a little bit. Then go back out to where you've got all those wrapped up husks and peel off the husks and then just leave the corncobs.
Debbie Flower 05:00
Because that'll expose them more and give them dry out a little bit fast, right.
Farmer Fred 05:05
And then within a few days, try that popping test again on the stovetop, when all the kernels that you put in at the same time in that heated oil pop in fairly close range, then you're ready. And then what you do is you strip off the kernels, which is not an easy job.
Debbie Flower 05:23
I was gonna ask if that was easy, if they don't just fall out.
Farmer Fred 05:27
No, no, they don't fall out. And you will go through a pair of gloves if you're trying to peel them off with your fingers and, and do wear gloves because if you try peeling them off, you will have no skin left. There are devices you can buy that strip the kernels off of popcorn cobs. One of my favorites is called the Lil' Stripper. But there are more proper names for it. And we'll have some links online about where you can find these. And these are basically cones, made of metal, that you would put over one end of the cob. And in these cones are ribs. And you just twist it as you go down the cob and the kernels fall off.
Debbie Flower 06:07
So it's not the round circle with this sort of teeth on it that you push down a cob of corn, knock off the corn, right? This is something different, right? Because
Farmer Fred 06:16
Because when on sweet corn like that, yeah, those kernels will just, fall off very nicely, because they're not that strongly attached. Popcorn, they are strongly attached, and you want that cone to sort of keep them from flying all over the place. Yes, when you do that, do it inside a big eight quart dutch oven or so, to limit their spread. And then you have the issue after you do that of, you're gonna have a lot of frass in there. And one of the easiest ways to get rid of the frass is to put it in a nylon bag. And where you might put
Debbie Flower 06:50
Where you might put laundry, a laundry bag.
Farmer Fred 06:52
like a laundry bag, okay? Like for bras or whatever, put it in one of those bags and go outside and shake it.
Debbie Flower 06:58
And the frass will go out in the holes, right?
Farmer Fred 07:01
And get rid of it that way. Or if you have an old hairdryer, put it on low setting, on cool. And you can spread out those kernels on a cookie sheet and then blow that into your yard.
Debbie Flower 07:12
The frass goes and the kernel stay.
Farmer Fred 07:15
Then you want to store them properly. And it should be a fairly airtight situation. I like to use canning jars and just fill it up and put a lid on it. And y you can use a seal-a-meal too.
Debbie Flower 07:31
And do it that way. What about a Ziploc bag?
Farmer Fred 07:36
If you can squeeze out a lot of the air,
Debbie Flower 07:38
I think they're not as resistant to air and moisture movement as a jar is.
Farmer Fred 07:44
right, right. The problem, though, is you may be sealing up those kernels with either too much moisture or too little moisture. So I would recommend that you jar it or put it in other containers that are fairly small. So you're not going to contaminate the whole bunch in too large of a jar. Because if it is it has too much moisture, you're going to see mold forming. If there's not enough moisture, the easy trick is to just put a few drops of water in it, shake it up and let it sit for a week in that jar. And then they should be okay to pop.
Debbie Flower 08:19
And if there's not enough moisture, they won't pop it all.
Farmer Fred 08:23
If there is not enough moisture. Yes, they will not pop it all. And anybody who has ever bitten on an unpopped hybrid variety of popcorn knows those can take your fillings out. They're very hard. The beauty of growing heirloom popcorn like one of my favorites is called Pennsylvania Butter Flavor 1886 popcorn. And those kernels that don't pop. It's like a crunchy treat. Oh yeah, they're very nice. And I like that a lot of heirloom varieties are like that. The hybrid varieties, not so much. So now, we noticed that she mentioned about sticking the whole cob inside of a microwave in a bag and turning it on. How's your fire insurance holding up?
Debbie Flower 09:10
Yes, I did that with my kids once and it caught fire.
Farmer Fred 09:15
Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people if they do use some sort of microwave cooker, or a popcorn popper is they leave it on too long. Use with the suggested amount to put in that popcorn popper, along with the suggested time. On the Presto air popper that I use in the microwave, it says 1/3 a cup of popcorn, unpopped popcorn. And turn on the microwave on high for three minutes and 15 seconds with the corn in there. Oh yeah with the corn in there. There's a lid on this popper.
Debbie Flower 09:50
Okay, well you just said the oil so Oh, no, no,
Farmer Fred 09:55
Oil is for stove top cooking. We can go into all the methods of cooking popcorn. Yes. There's air poppers. There's the microwave popper. And you don't need to use oil. And that's why I like it. On the microwave. Oh, so yeah, less oil.
Debbie Flower 10:06
That's nice. Yeah.
Farmer Fred 10:08
And of course, the old fashioned way. on the stovetop. I grew up making popcorn. I think since the time I could reach the top of the stove. And it was an old frying pan with a lid. And there was a big container of old bacon grease on the side. I was using that. And it's very tasty popcorn, I bet Yes. And you just shake it constantly so it doesn't burn.
Debbie Flower 10:31
Professor, can I review? And see if I got this lesson right? Okay, so for the harvest, you want to wait till the stalk is completely brown, correct. And then cut or break the ears off. And still in the husk, still covered up, just cutting them off of the stalk, and then use the stalk for decoration. And then take them in the house and put them in a place where they're going to get lots of airflow, like a bag that you buy yams in, or you could use maybe those laundry bags, and let them sit for a week or so, probably two weeks. Let them sit for two weeks, then take off a few kernels, four or five, heat some oil in the pan and throw the kernels in. And what we're looking for is even popping of all the kernels at the same time. And they should be fully popped, right? If they don't pop enough, then they're going they're probably under dried and need a little bit more time. If they need a little bit more time, then we're going to pull the husks off put the ears back in the airy situation and let them dry for another week, let's say and try again. And we do that until we get even popping up all the kernels, then we take the kernels off of the ear, we do not want to try to pop them on the ear because that causes fire. Yes, so we take the kernels off the ear and there's a special cone for that. And then we have to separate the frass from the kernels. And that's done with air primarily somehow blow it with a cool hair dryer, put it back in in the bag with holes and shake it outside, something like that, and then store it in small canning jars. Because there could be a bad kernel in there that could mold the whole jar. It smells bad too, moldy things generally do. And then there are many, many methods for popping the corn. But we do not want to pop the whole ear in the microwave.
Farmer Fred 12:37
Correct. Yeah, and it should last for over a year.
Debbie Flower 12:41
Oh wow.
Farmer Fred 12:42
In those containers. Now, if you discovered that they didn't pop at all then they were too dry. One thing you could try is what we talked about as well, go ahead and put it in jar but add a little bit of water a few drops of water to that small jar, shake it up and see in a week or so if that helps. And you might get them to pop,
Debbie Flower 13:01
Corn kernels are seeds. So corn kernels contain baby plants, and food for the baby plants. So at some point they could dry out so much they would just die. But they can get pretty dry before that happens. I'm just thinking out loud. Sorry. That's okay.
Farmer Fred 13:22
With heirloom varieties, and if you're growing heirloom varieties, you want to save some seed for planting the next year. Be sure you're not growing any other varieties of popcorn near it. And especially don't mix sweet corn with popcorn when you're planting corn, right? either one or the other. You need like 500 feet of separation between sweet corn and popcorn.
Debbie Flower 13:42
Because you're gonna have to check with your neighbors. In most cases, if you're growing popcorn, you want to make sure your neighbors aren't growing sweet corn, right?
Farmer Fred 13:50
Another way to do that too, is to find out when they're planting and then arrange your planting so that they're not setting pollen at the same time.
Debbie Flower 14:00
I was in Ames, Iowa once and that's a big agriculture school and it's a big corn growing state. And they had basically tents they were rectangular, they have a very fine mesh and they were growing their corn inside of those tents.
Farmer Fred 14:20
To avoid cross pollination. Yes, yes. Well, especially with hybrid varieties like that, where they're trying to grow just one strict variety if your neighbor has a different hybrid variety, it might be an interesting mix.
Debbie Flower 14:32
It's the one crop where the part that we eat is influenced by how it was pollinated this year.
Farmer Fred 14:40
Yeah, that year. That is unusual.
Debbie Flower 14:42
It is unusual. The other crops like melons and cucumbers and things. They can be pollinated by close relatives that produce different fruit but the fruit you get on those plants in year one is what that plant was designated to produce. However, the change occurs in the seed. And in corn, the seed is the thing that we eat. So we see that change in the first year.
Farmer Fred 15:07
Yeah, you can definitely save the seed for planting in the following year. And you would save those seeds, like you would save any seed in a cool dry location. Mm hmm.
Debbie Flower 15:18
A container in the refrigerator in a Ziploc bag or a jar? That's my choice for me.
Farmer Fred 15:26
Mine is in a box in the office.
Debbie Flower 15:29
But not in the garage. Yeah. Where it gets very hot and very cold and very dry and very wet.
Farmer Fred 15:35
Yeah, there is some amazing tasty popcorn varieties that you've probably never experienced that if you grew up just eating Reddenbacher and Jolly Time and most everything you buy at the grocery store, or for that matter, movie popcorn. Heirloom popcorn actually has taste.
Debbie Flower 15:53
Yeah, I was thinking movie popcorn and jolly time, etc. The taste is in the butter and the salt.
Farmer Fred 15:58
Yeah, exactly. Or cinnamon or whatever you put on, right.
Debbie Flower 16:01
And if you're on a diet and you're not eating butter, salt, then it's boring food.
Farmer Fred 16:07
Popcorn is high in fiber, it's high in protein. And as long as you don't muck it up with too much fat, you know, you're okay.
Debbie Flower 16:14
But the heirlooms are gonna give you that taste right? That makes it so much better.
Farmer Fred 16:18
It'll persuade you to use less butter and salt.
Debbie Flower 16:22
There you go. And get the protein and the fiber, which are the good parts. Yeah.
Farmer Fred 16:26
All right. Lori, I think you'll have a fun time growing popcorn and that strawberry popcorn is certainly beautiful too. By the way, if you did decide to plant several varieties of heirloom popcorn of different colors, you're going to get some interesting mixes on the cobs of colors.
Debbie Flower 16:44
I assume strawberry popcorn is red, correct? Yeah.
Farmer Fred 16:46
But there's things like Cherokee Long Ear or Wisconsin Black. And Pennsylvania Butter Corn is is sort of a pale yellow. But I've had instances where I've mixed like Wisconsin, Black, Cherokee Long Ear and the Pennsylvania butter corn. And you end up with a cornucopia of colors on one cob.
Debbie Flower 17:05
But it all still pops. Mm hmm. Nice. Yeah.
Farmer Fred 17:08
So have fun Lori, I think that'll be a fun thing to do next year again. Thank you, Debbie.
Debbie Flower 17:13
My pleasure, Fred. I learned from this for sure. Okay.
Farmer Fred 17:21
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Farmer Fred 18:25
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Farmer Fred 19:15
If you want more information about the topics discussed on today’s podcast, including all the implements we discussed for drying, preserving and enjoying popcorn, you can find it in the latest Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter, where we go beyond the basics. Plus, we have tips for growing Giant Pumpkins in 2022. Now is a good time to be planning your 2022 garden, because many of the seed catalogs have sales going on this month. We have a list of those garden outlets offering seeds at bargain prices. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter on Substack. And best of all, it’s free! There’s a link in today’s show notes, and near the top of the page at farmerfred.com. Or, just go to substack.com, and do a search for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. That’s substack.com slash garden basics (one word). Think of it as your garden resource that goes beyond the basics. It’s The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter. Did I tell you it’s free? It’s free.
Farmer Fred 19:18
Every week we like to talk with Warren Roberts out at the UC Davis Arboretum in public garden because every week he has a plant of the week. And today's plant is one that you may still have sitting on your front porch or even growing in your backyard or it's smashed up against a window. It would be the pumpkin. And Warren, the pumpkin is a very interesting plant. Is it a vegetable? Is it a fruit? Is it a berry? What is it?
Warren Roberts 19:43
Oh, that's a good question. It's a fruit really, but it seems usually if you eat it, you eat it as a vegetable. There's a wonderful candied pumpkin in Mexico. That's one of my favorite treats. Cucurbita pepo is the botanical name. And Cucurbita is a genus from the Americas from Mexico down into the Andes. Actually no, we have, I think we have a members of that genus and native in California, too. But not edible ones. But the pumpkin itself is probably originally from Mexico, what you see today is often a hybrid, especially the really, really big ones with another Cucurbita called Cucurbita maxima, which is one that, when I lived in the Andes, in Peru, I got to know and there as big as those big exercise balls, that you see two or three feet across, and not usually the markets who would be sold not as an entire fruit, but a big chunk, and the flesh was about four inches thick. So the color of that one is kind of a celadon green-gray. The hybrids, though, with the regular pumpkin are kind of the dark orange. And those are the ones that win the prizes for biggest pumpkin, but they're not really strictly the typical pumpkin species Cucurbita pepo, which is a smaller fruit. Now the pumpkin is used as a Jack O' Lantern for Halloween, but the original Jack O' Lanterns from Europe were actually hollowed out turnips or rutabagas. A turnip or rutabaga that has gotten too woody or to old to eat really. It would be hollowed out, and was used as a way of transporting the coals that is to say, live coals from a fire that this is in times when the wooden matches were not available, and you had to bring the fire in some kind of a container and that was used for that. I found that out just recently. That's ingenious. Yeah, it is. The pumpkin was a much easier and a larger way of doing that same thing. Particularly this custom comes over from Ireland and the rest is tradition and history. Anyway of the 27 or so species, Cucurbita pepo is the one that is called the pumpkin. Now the name Cucurbita comes from Latin and it means "gourd" that is a little bit slightly confusing because the genus cucurbit is not found in Europe, as well as the winter melon, in China, too. There's similar squash-like plants, but the true squashes the ones that we call squash are native to the Americas. Squash, I think, is an Algonquian Indian name from the central Atlantic Coast area. The pumpkin by now you have probably converted your pumpkins after the holiday into something edible maybe you can make wonderful soup out of pumpkins or any of these so-called winter squashes and I like my pumpkin soup flavored more with garlic and oregano than than the traditional pumpkin spices. Occasionally you'll have pumpkin soup that tastes like pumpkin pie and that's not my personal favorite.
Farmer Fred 23:34
You can always roast the seeds, too.
Warren Roberts 23:36
Yes, the seeds. And traditionally the seeds are roasted shelled, in Mexico, to make pipiens sauce which is very tasty actually. Some people actually take the toasted pumpkin seeds and crack them and know how to do that without making a an inedible mess in the mouth.
Farmer Fred 23:57
That's a skill. So, the pumpkin is an interesting plant because you have to grow it when the weather is warm it grows during the summer, but it's still quite classified as a winter squash.
Warren Roberts 24:11
It is. But it's not a terribly long lasting of the winter squashes. We've often found out we've left the Jack o Lantern out, or even a carved pumpkin; and all of a sudden when you pick it up, it bottoms out. So there are other squashes which last longer in the winter. But the young, immature pumpkin can be cooked kind of like summer squash or zucchini, or some of the wonderful squashes that that are traditionally in gardens in North America. And then don't forget the flowers. The flowers can also be eaten and you can have pumpkin flowers soup or dip them in batter and fry them. So there are many ways to to eat the pumpkin and enjoy them.
Farmer Fred 25:02
Yeah, and you get some protein too because there's usually ants in the flowers.
Warren Roberts 25:06
Oh, yes, I would up the ante.
Farmer Fred 25:09
Thank you very much.
Warren Roberts 25:11
I think that you probably want to wash them. Ants would certainly add a bit of flavor. The formic acid might be a little bit much.
Farmer Fred 25:21
Yeah, just a bit. But they are there they're performing a service, they're helping to pollinate.
Warren Roberts 25:28
I suppose, I suppose they are. I think, though, that often bees are busy doing the pollination as well. And there are different kinds of flowers. There are female flowers and male flowers, on the same plant. And now we think of the typical pumpkin colors orange, the same color pretty much as the California State flower, the California Poppy. But there are now pumpkins that are mature and pure white.
Farmer Fred 25:53
Right. The Lumina.
Warren Roberts 25:57
First time I saw one of these, I was I was amazed. I hadn't heard about them. And there they were, for sale.
Farmer Fred 26:03
Yeah, I planted three different varieties of mini pumpkins this year, the Jill-be-little, the Wee-be-little, and Spark. And the spark was just gorgeous. It was like striated red and orange coloring on this mini pumpkin. And I noticed that at the grocery store the other day, they were selling them for like $3 each. And my wife turned to me and said, "you should have grown more."
Warren Roberts 26:29
Yes, well, I think the pumpkin is certainly sort of part of American culture, but it's grown in other places as well. Now pumpkin pie, most people that I know from other countries don't appreciate pumpkin pie that much. And I wish I liked it better than I do, as well. But certainly in South America, I became very fond of the pumpkin soup that is made quite delicious.
Farmer Fred 26:56
There are seeds available and really they are best planted from seed. so the good thing to do during late fall and winter is peruse the seed catalogs and look for pumpkin seeds that are interesting to you. Just remember that they do have a long growing season, it usually takes 90 to 120 days to get from sowing to harvest. So plant them after the soil has warmed up considerably in mid May through June. And stand back because those vines go everywhere
Warren Roberts 27:25
They do, bless their hearts.
Farmer Fred 27:27
Warren Roberts and the Plant of the week, the pumpkin. He's the superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum and public garden. Thanks for a very colorful plant of the week, Warren.
Warren Roberts 27:38
Welcome, it's my pleasure.
Farmer Fred 28:55
Don't forget if you want to learn more about the topics covered on today's episode of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, subscribe to the free Garden Basics newsletter on Substack. Details are in today's show notes. The Garden Basics podcast will be on its winter schedule from November through January. And that means there will only be one episode per week during that three month period, released every Friday. But because there's so much to talk about, there's a good chance those weekly episodes will be longer than 30 minutes. Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots. And the podcast is available for free wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening, subscribing, and leaving comments. We appreciate it.
