Garden Basics with Farmer Fred

155 Battling Bermudagrass. The Persimmon Tree.

December 03, 2021 Fred Hoffman Season 2 Episode 155
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred
155 Battling Bermudagrass. The Persimmon Tree.
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Farmer Fred Garden Rule #1: Bermudagrass is forever. You think I’m kidding? Ask any gardener who is battling this triple threat weed, which can reproduce and spread via seed, stems and rootstocks.

Retired college horticulture professor Debbie Flower gives us some ideas for control and suppression tactics when battling bermudagrass (please note, I did NOT say, eradicate). 

The UC Davis Arboretum and Public Garden’s Superintendent Emeritus, Warren Roberts, tells us about a tree that has it all: great fall color, an interesting form, and tasty fruit this time of year. It’s our Plant of the Week, the Persimmon Tree.

Podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory, it’s episode 155 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery

And we will do it all in just a little over 30 minutes. Let’s go!

November through January, the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast slows its production schedule. Look for new episodes each Friday. In February, we will return to twice a week podcasts, on Tuesdays and Fridays.

Pictured:
The Persimmon Tree (Diospyros kaki 'Yamon') in the Fall

Links:
Subscribe to the free, The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter
Smart Pots
Dave Wilson Nursery
Bemudagrass Control Tactics from UCANR
Univ. of Maryland Bermudagrass Control
UCANR Soil Solarization Tips (for controlling bermudagrass)
Turflon Ester (Bermudagrass control)
Turflon Ester Product Label (for Bermudagrass control)
The Farmer Fred Rant: THE Edible Ornamental of the Fall, the Persimmon Tree

More episodes and info available at Garden Basics with Farmer Fred

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Farmer Fred

Thank you for listening, subscribing and commenting on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast and the Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter.

GB 155 Controlling Bermudagrass, The Persimmon Tree. TRANSCRIPT

34:39

SPEAKERS

Debbie Flower, Warren Roberts, Farmer Fred


Farmer Fred  00:00

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.


Farmer Fred  00:33

 It's Farmer Fred Garden Rule Number One:  Bermudagrass is forever. You think I'm kidding? Ask any gardener who's battled this triple threat weed, which can reproduce and spread via seed, stems, and rootstocks. Retired college horticulture Professor Debbie Flower gives us some ideas for control and suppression tactics when it comes to battling Bermuda grass. And please note, I didn't say eradicate. Among her suggestions for controlling this weed: remembering the first letters of the phrase "Clean My Plants Before Christmas." That would be C-M-P-B-C. If you remember that insight and put it into practice, it's going to help you control a wide variety of backyard pests, including weeds. The UC Davis Arboretum and Public Garden Superintendent Emeritus Warren Roberts tells us about a tree that has it all: great fall color, interesting form, and tasty fruit this time of year. What is the plant of the week? Why it's the persimmon tree! Podcasting from Barking Dogs Studios, here in the beautiful abutilon jungle, in Suburban Purgatory. It's Episode 155 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smartpots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we'll do it all in just a little over 30 minutes. Let's go. 


Farmer Fred  01:56

We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics Podcast. You can send your questions in a myriad of ways. You can phone them in or you can text them in. The number to call: 916-292-8964, 916-292-8964. Or you can go to Speakpipe.com/gardenbasics and talk into your computer and leave a question that way. And you can also leave questions at our social media sites such as Instagram and Facebook and Twitter (you'll find links in the show notes). And today's question came in via Facebook. Debbie Flower is here, our favorite retired college horticultural professor, and we've been tackling a lot of weeds lately. And people seem to have their favorite weeds. All weeds are local.


Debbie Flower  02:40

Yeah, they are. That's true. The population changes depending on where you live.


Farmer Fred  02:44

And I believe that today's weed is one that I know is very popular here in California, and probably elsewhere throughout the West.


Debbie Flower  02:53

Yes, in the warmer places.


Farmer Fred  02:54

And it is Bermuda grass. Oh man. And this person asked at the Get Growing with Farmer Fred Facebook page, "Are there any plants that overpower or nudge out Bermuda grass? Are there any organic methods to eradicate it?" Well, that's the good news that there are ways, maybe we shouldn't say eradicate, let's just say, suppress or control. In fact, if you look at chemical solutions for Bermuda grass, it's never eradicate, right?


Debbie Flower  03:22

Right. It's subdue. But not eradicate. And someone I know, and you may know this person, too, says Bermuda grass is forever.


Farmer Fred  03:30

Bermuda grass is forever. Indeed it is. Explain why that is.


Debbie Flower  03:34

It is for me, too. Bermudagrass has multiple ways of reproducing and storing food, so that it can regrow if other parts have broken off. So it has what are called rhizomes, which is an underground stem that grows horizontally under the soil. And it is somewhat fat, not super fat, but it's fat enough for it to store food all along the length of that underground stem and it can be very deep in the soil. The depth that things grow in soil is very dependent on soil type and the availability of oxygen and water there. But Bermuda grass has proven to be able to grow in very variable conditions including deeper in the soil. So that's one way that it stores food. And if you break off a piece of that rhizome and put it on the soil somewhere else, it will regrow from there. It also has stolons. Stolons are another type of stem,  stems that also stores food, and they travel across the surface of the soil. I used to tell my students that "stolons steal space". 


Farmer Fred  04:35

Stolons steal space. 


Debbie Flower  04:37

Yes, because as the stem grows across the surface of the soil, at every node. And a node is where a leaf or another stem or branch would grow. It can also grow roots. And so you can break off either side of that node and it can make itself a whole new plant. So it can reproduce that way. And then, of course, it flowers and so it produces a stalk. It looks like the ribs of an umbrella, it's the flower structure. And there are lots of little seeds in there and so it can reproduce from seeds


Farmer Fred  05:07

They look kind of like turkey legs. 


Debbie Flower  05:08

Yes, it's true


Farmer Fred  05:10

 We used to say that. Okay. By the way for you Scrabble or Words with Friends fans, a stolon, like what we're talking about here, is s t o l o n.


Debbie Flower  05:20

That's correct. It doesn't actually have the E in it. That when someone robs you.


Farmer Fred  05:25

However, stolons do rob you of soil. 


Debbie Flower  05:28

They rob you of soil, they rob your plants of space to grow. And then those stolons are very waxy and they can, if you let the Bermuda grass grow, if you inherit a patch of heavily infested soil that is heavily infested with Bermuda grass, they will grow over each other. And eventually you get a layer of very waxy stems that will not allow water to penetrate. And so it's very difficult for other things to grow up. So if you go to pull it out, you've left the rhizomes underground and potentially broken off the stolons where they have rooted at other places in the ground. And so it just makes more plants.


Farmer Fred  06:04

Stolons, rhizomes can last for up to 50 years. 


Debbie Flower  06:08

Wow. 


Farmer Fred  06:10

That's just crazy. Oh yeah, Bermuda grass is forever. Now, way back when we were discussing  field bindweed, you came up with your Hawaiian vacation mnemonic of POI ATM. Hence, if you go to a luau in Hawaii, you better save your money, or you're going to be using the ATM before you go to the luau, if you want to eat the poi. 


Debbie Flower  06:33

exactly 


Farmer Fred  06:34

POI ATM stands for... Be my guest.


Debbie Flower  06:38

These are the integrated pest management strategies. Prevent. Prevent the pest in the first place. Observe. So, watch the landscape and see when that pest shows up. It's much easier to control pests when they are either in small population or a young seedling. So they're very young. Identify. You got to know what it is if you're going to take care of it. A and T both work together as Action Threshold. So at what point do you need to take action with things like Bermuda grass and field bindweed? Right away. Your action threshold is when you see the first plant. Other things, maybe like aphids, if we're talking insects, you can wait and see what's going to happen. So your Action Threshold may not be when you see it the very first day. And then there are Management methods. That's what the M is for.


Farmer Fred  07:27

And interestingly enough, you came up with a another mnemonic, when we were talking about oxalis. It is sort of a subset of the Action Threshold, and it was BISS.


Debbie Flower  07:38

BISS - control weeds Before It Sets Seed. If  you have one plant, if you allow it to set seed, you potentially have 1000s of plants or weeds, because they survive well. And they reproduce vigorously, often through seed production.


Farmer Fred  08:01

And then a while back, we learned a new one from Warren Roberts, the superintendent of the UC Davis Arboretum, who was trying to remember how to spell ginkgo, the ginkgo tree. Is it G-I-N-K-G-O, or G-I-N-G-K-O. And he remembers it by dividing the work into two, very well known products: gin, that you might imbibe in, and KGO, which is a radio station in San Francisco. So that is now permanently emblazoned in my brain.


Debbie Flower  08:29

Yes, mnemonics are wonderful things if you're trying to learn something. 


Farmer Fred  08:32

And I learned a new one, too, for astronomy students. 


Farmer Fred  08:36

One that determines the temperature of stars. You know, when you stare at stars at night, some might appear blue, some appear red. Our sun is a star, it appears kind of white with a yellowish tinge. Well, it all has to do with the temperature of that particular star. And the way to remember how they're classified, the students use the mnemonic, "Oh, Be A Fine Girl, Kiss Me." Oh be a fine girl, kiss me, which is O-B-A-F-G-K-M. And that refers to the class of star they're in. The O class are the brightest stars, and it goes on down the line. Our Sun is a G classification. And what happened though, is this was developed like decades ago, but since they have more powerful telescopes, now, they have discovered brown dwarfs or faint stars that also have to fall into a classification. So they added some new classifications. So, to "Oh, Be A Fine Girl, Kiss Me they added, "No Tongue, Yo." The N T and Y are for the new classifications of stars. 


Debbie Flower  08:36

Oh yes? f


Debbie Flower  09:47

That's funny. 


Farmer Fred  09:48

And of course, now in college textbooks, where they have this, they've actually made it more politically correct. So now it's "Oh, Be A Fine Girl/Guy, No Talk, Yo." Do you have one for an IPM integrated pest management technique for Bermuda grass?


Debbie Flower  10:05

It's an order of management methods that is suggested by the integrated pest management techniques so that you do the least damage to the earth first. 


Farmer Fred  10:15

Fair enough. .


Debbie Flower  10:16

Mm hmm. 


Farmer Fred  10:21

Clean My Plants Before Christmas.  C-M-P-B-C.  What does that mean?


Debbie Flower  10:29

So that's the order of operations to try to control a pest. So C is cultural. And cultural is how you maintain the plant. Maybe how often you water it? Well, that's an example. 


Farmer Fred  10:45

What about mowing? 


Debbie Flower  10:47

Whether you mow it? Yeah, mow. Change the level of mowing. Mow it for Bermuda grass, you would mow high. That is because Bermuda grass doesn't do well in shady places. And if you have long grass blades, who would be three inches here, in an arid place; it would be two inches in a more humid place, then the bermudagrass doesn't grow so well. They don't disappear, necessarily, but they don't grow as well with the shade that the extra length of the grass blade provides.


Farmer Fred  11:12

Some may be wondering, well, where are those grass blades coming from? If you have a Bermuda grass lawn, a lot of people here in the West - if they have a Bermuda grass lawn - Bermuda grass goes dormant in the wintertime and turn brown. So a lot of people got in the habit of overseeding with rye grass. Yes, rye grass doesn't do very well in high heat, but nine months of the year it'll grow. And it's beautiful. Yeah. And so the ryegrass is what could possibly be used to shade out competition from the Bermuda grass, right?


Debbie Flower  11:42

Or if you're like me and have a fescue lawn, the Bermuda grass, fescue is a bunch grass and so it grows in tufts, kind of, we let it grow long. So it becomes very tough to grasp. If you mow it, it doesn't become so hummocky. But especially in the very sunny edges of the lawn right up against the concrete driveway, the Bermuda grass has found its way in.


Farmer Fred  12:04

I love hummocky. That means lumpy.


Debbie Flower  12:06

Lumpy. Yeah, let's see. "My" is for mechanical. Mechanical is like hand pulling, or digging it out. Especially before the seeds form at my house, my husband, it's my husband's lawn. We wouldn't have lawn if it were my house. If it were, excuse me, we wouldn't have a lawn if it were just my landscape.


Farmer Fred  12:28

He gets it in the divorce.


Debbie Flower  12:31

Right. So he wanted the lawn, he wants it his way. Fine. I don't take care of it. But I will point out when it goes into seed, that Bermuda grass is seeding over the fescue, or I will just go out there and pull that off myself because I know how to pull it is to let that happen. 


Farmer Fred  12:47

You're a great weed puller. 


Debbie Flower  12:48

Okay, I'm a great weed puller. It's my therapy. Yeah, it's cheaper than a therapist.


Farmer Fred  12:52

So that's a mechanical control, not a physical control. 


Debbie Flower  12:57

Physical is like creating a physical environment, is what it really refers to. So it's creating the environment that either benefits the plant or does not benefit the weed and in this case, shade. If you grew other plants around it, like I said, the Bermuda grass is invading the sunny hot spots of my lawn, not the shady, moister spots. So if you were able to create shade in those hot sunny spots in the Bermuda grass, it would not do so well. 


Farmer Fred  13:24

Plant other plants on the south side, to shade the bermuda grass.  Well, it's not going to eliminate it, but it's going to slow it down. Right. And that's what we're trying to do. Right? 


Debbie Flower  13:35

That's all we can do. Yeah, clean my plants... "Before" is "biological". For other pests there are biological controls, meaning insects that eat insects, or diseases that will infect insects, or there are insects that will eat the seeds of weeds. I am not aware of any biological controls for bermudagrass. And then C (Christmas) is "Chemical". So that's the last resort. Chemical control meaning pesticides. In this case, herbicides, it is the last resort to control a pest. We want to try everything else before we can break out the chemicals because chemicals are poisons and the more poisons we add to our Earth, the less quality of life we may have.


Farmer Fred  14:18

This is the one thing that, I think, has been the sea change in horticulture over the past 30 or 40 years, from my own experience answering gardening questions on the radio. The questions used to be way back when, "What can I buy to control ___? What can I spray?" Yeah, and now more and more people are saying, "What can I DO to control whatever? And that's where the integrated pest management comes in.


Debbie Flower  14:44

I agree. 100% Yeah. 


Farmer Fred  14:46

And darn if it doesn't work. 


Debbie Flower  14:48

You want another mnemonic? 


Farmer Fred  14:49

Sure. Why not? 


Debbie Flower  14:51

This one is for the signal words on pesticide labels. Pesticides have to be registered with the federal government first, the Environmental Protection Agency; and then the states get to decide how they want to register them, based on what the federal government has done. In California, we have our own Cal State EPA. And so, some pesticides are not allowed in California that the federal government allows. But you can't do the reverse. We can't use pesticides in California that are not allowed by the federal government. Pesticides are rated by their level of toxicity. And toxicity means poisonous. And  it's rated for humans. How toxic are they to humans? How poisonous are they to humans? And so then they're given a word and a number.  And I always had trouble with that. "Danger", to me, sounds like the worst word. I always had trouble remembering which came next: warning or caution, caution or warning. So my mnemonic is, "3-2-1, Cat Will Die."


Farmer Fred  15:58

Okay, I went the other way from least toxic to most toxic. Well, while you were talking I came up with "Cows Wander Dairies."


Debbie Flower  16:08

Okay, that works.


Farmer Fred  16:11

But basically, yeah, if you're shopping for... and by the way, let's define what a pesticide is. Because people may be confused. They're thinking, "I thought they were talking about weeds, and now they're talking pesticides" Well, everything's a pest.


Debbie Flower  16:23

Yes, right. Weeds are a pest. I was talking to my son, who's now a homeowner, and he wants to control his weeds. And he said, well, not a pesticide, a herbicide. So well, an herbicide is a pesticide. "Pesticide" is an umbrella term for all the pests. Weeds are pests, diseases are pests. Vertebrates, which is anything with a backbone, can be a pest, insects are pests. They're invertebrates. They don't have a backbone. So we have all different kinds under pesticides. We have herbicides for weeds, insecticides for insects, we have algaecides for algae. We have fungicides for fungus, bacteriacides for bacteria, etc. An herbicide is a type of pesticide.


Farmer Fred  17:03

And of the herbicides, if we really want to go into this conversation, I'm not so sure, just because it is so very confusing. There are products on the market that talk about suppressing and controlling Bermuda grass, but they have to be applied at the right time. And in the right situations. You have to make sure that your other turf areas or ornamental plants won't be affected by the product.


Debbie Flower  17:27

Right. A big part of that registration through the federal government and then through the state government is the creation of the label. And the label is a legal document, you have to, by law, you have to follow it. Technically, you can be fined if you do not follow the label and you are applying pesticides for hire. So homeowners, you know, you can poison yourself all you want according to the the government. But if you work in the industry, or you have someone come in and maintain your garden, they must have a license in order to apply pesticides. And they have to follow the label. The label is the law. And the label will tell you under what conditions to apply or to not apply this pesticide. And that's could be the growth condition of the weed, could be temperature of the air. It could be season based on the physiology of the plant and the weed itself.


Debbie Flower  17:35

And how the plant is growing, too. Can it be stressed and apply it? Probably not. It probably needs to be actively growing.


Debbie Flower  18:30

Right. That's one thing people get confused about with herbicides, pesticides that kill plants is that...and I do it, I go out and I think, "I got to treat this Bermuda grass" but I'm out here, with my hands and I start pulling. That means I have to wait. You want to apply the herbicide when the weed is actively growing and big and lush and happy. Because then it will be able to absorb the chemical pesticide, the most and the best. And that's what you want to subdue or control that weed.


Farmer Fred  19:04

And read and follow all label directions. Right? It's the law. Yeah. And it is such a morass, I will have a link to a very good chemical discussion of what to use to control or suppress Bermuda grass in today's show notes from the University of California. It'll also be in the Garden Basics newsletter for this episode as well. So check that out. If you're looking for names like "Weed-B-Gone" or "Turflon" or whatever. And, you know, it's interesting how in that University of California discussion, they get right back to saying, really, the only thing that works is soil solarization.


Debbie Flower  19:45

And even that only works in the top few inches. And if this is a horrible Bermuda grass infestation, those roots can go down, what, a foot more?  And potentially the rhizomes are down there too, and it could resprout, but hopefully it'll take time.


Farmer Fred  20:02

Soil solarization is best accomplished in the heat of the summer. So you're talking June, July and August tha's when it has a chance for a well-saturated area that's covered with clear plastic to reach temperatures of 120 degrees or more. And then when you're done, don't rototill because that just brings up more rhizomes and stolons and whatever seeds are there up to the surface. I did soil solarization once on  2000 square feet of what was originally planted as a Bermuda grass lawn. Stupid me, but then back then, that was popular, as far as planting a Bermuda grass lawn.


Debbie Flower  20:40

Oh, okay.


Farmer Fred  20:41

But the soil solarization worked like a charm. I kept that clear plastic down there for six weeks. When I removed it, I put down three inches of a fine compost and on top of that four inches of a rough mulch, chipped and shredded tree parts. For me, the bermudagrass never came back. And if it did, it was just like one little seedling popped up that you could just pull out really easily.


Debbie Flower  21:07

And that may have seeded in. That may have been a new infestation. Exactly.


Farmer Fred  21:11

So it does work. If you do it at the right time. We'll have a link to soil solarization as well. Is it called soil solarization when you do it in the wintertime? When you're just throwing down 12 inches of mulch or whatever?


Debbie Flower  21:26

That would be eliminating the light I would think.


Farmer Fred  21:29

Yeah, and that's an option, but it's not as effective as heating the soil.


Debbie Flower  21:34

Right. Eliminating the light. I've tried different things in the path of a newly planted vegetable garden, using old pieces of carpet, for instance. And the seeds still germinate in the darkness of the soil and the garden under the rug or under the very thick mulch, but they can't get to the sun in order to make their own food and grow and thrive so they die instead. When you do cover an area with something that makes it dark. And I know people do it, but please don't do this: Black plastic. It is something people think of to do this, but it just makes a mess. Landscape fabric is the same thing. I see people do it. The weeds will grow right into that landscape fabric. But you can use other things. People talk about sheet mulching. It has its pros and cons, using newspaper and cardboard and mulch, with the mulch on top. Watch the edges of that bed, whatever it is. Even laying carpet down in the aisle of the vegetable garden, the weeds will come up right around the edge. Anyplace that they can find to get some sun, that's what they're looking for.


Farmer Fred  22:48

It's Farmer Fred Garden Rule Number One: Bermudagrass is forever. Yeah, but you can suppress or control it.


Debbie Flower  22:54

Suppress or control, yes. 


Farmer Fred  22:56

Good luck to all of us. Debbie Flower, thanks for the help.


Debbie Flower  22:59

Thank you, Fred.


Farmer Fred  23:04

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Farmer Fred  24:09

Every week we like to talk with Warren Roberts. He is the Superintendent Emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum and Public Garden. We always like to get a Plant of the Week from him. And today's plant is one of my favorites. It has great fall color. It has tasty fruit. It has a wonderful, whitish bark. It's hard to dislike anything about the persimmon, Warren.


Warren Roberts  24:35

No, I agree. It's a tree we're talking about the scientific name is Diospyros kaki.  Kaki is a specific epithet, in this case, it is the Japanese common name.


Farmer Fred  24:54

Now we should not confuse that with the American persimmon.


Warren Roberts  24:57

The name persimmon comes from the Powhatan language of the Algonquian language group. Powhatan was spoken, or still is, in the Virginia area. And in fact, the word opossum, is also from the same language and opossums feed on persimmons.


Farmer Fred  25:17

Oh, wow. It's  a rather widespread American tree. It's native from Connecticut to Kansas to Texas and Florida.


Warren Roberts  25:24

Yes, I think it even gets into Mexico. And in Mexico, this species is the Diospyros dagina, which is the sapote negro, or the black sapote. And also, this is a rather large fruit. The Diospyros virginiana, is about the size of a ping pong ball, maybe a little smaller. And a very similar species in Asia is Diaspyros lotus, looks much the same. Now almost all persimmons, to be edible, need to let blet, B-L-E-T. And that means a softening, ripening. When the fruit is firm, it's amazingly astringent. There are exceptions. But the fruit needs to blet or soften, then it can be et. Let it blet before it's et.


Farmer Fred  26:13

In the world of the Japanese or oriental persimmon. Of course, there's the Fuyu persimmon which is non astringent, and you can eat that one when it's firm.


Warren Roberts  26:23

That one and the Gosho cultivar, which is similar but larger than the Fuyu. Yes, you can eat them. They should be a good orange color, though, right? If they still have some green on them, you can eat them, but they're not very sweet. And persimmons are so very delicious. Oh, my goodness, it's great in so many things,  salads and desserts. And then you can also let the Fuji ripen like the Hachiya, which is the large one with a rather pointed tip. That one cannot be firm. But it when it softens, it's tasty. 


Farmer Fred  26:57

You could eat it when it is firm, but have somebody standing by with a camera to take a picture of your face.


Warren Roberts  27:04

Yes, you can. There's also a way of making little slits underneath the calyx, that's the rather beautiful four pointed leafy structure at the the base of the persimmon, and then turning the persimmon upside down and putting alcohol, ethanol, regular vodka in the space. And then after several days, the astringency disappears. I've never tried that, I've just heard about that. 


Farmer Fred  27:34

Seems like a waste of vodka. 


Warren Roberts  27:36

Well, except then you have a Hachiya which is firm and you can eat it. That's when it's fun. And if you have persimmon trees, usually they produce way more fruit than a family can eat, but you can make wonderful desserts from it. Persimmon pudding is something I've done most of my life and it's like plum pudding, but using persimmon and walnuts. It's just so delicious. But it used to be that I said I would eat one persimmon a year as big sloppy, soft as she is and enjoy it. And then next year, I'd have one again. But, over the years, I've softened, as it were, and I eat them whenever they're available.


Farmer Fred  28:26

Well you've lost a lot of your astringency.


Warren Roberts  28:31

But one of the really fine things, as you're pointing out earlier about persimmon, is how beautiful they are on the tree. And the fall color of the Diospyros kaki, the common one we call the Asian persimmon or Japanese persimmon is that the fall colors are beautifu.l Oranges, reds, and in between. And then when the leaves fall, the tree is still ornamented with these beautiful orange fruit, which stay on the tree until they drop or until they're picked. And it's really a breathtaking sight in the late fall, of a persimmon tree with the fruit still hanging in the tree.


Farmer Fred  29:14

I was marveling at one today, while driving up to the Sierra Nevada foothills, to Auburn. it was next to the road and it was a big tree, it looked to be about 40 feet tall, and it did look like it was covered in Christmas ornaments.


Warren Roberts  29:27

Yes they do. Just amazing. Of course, Christmas ornaments are said to imitate the fruit, anyway. But I think in this case, in eastern Asia, it is the pomegranate. But the persimmon tree is so beautiful. But if you have one make sure you have friends or family members who like the tree because they make a real mess if you're just let them fall. In our neighborhood we have three species of squirrels two are native and one is not, that will pick up after the persimmon tree. But most of the time, the fruit is clipped and shared.


Farmer Fred  30:10

Exactly. And as I like to do, dehydrate them, slice them up into a quarter inch slices and put them on the dehydrator for a few hours.


Warren Roberts  30:18

Oh, yes. And then you can enjoy them all year. Oh, another little footnote to persimmons. The ebony, the beautiful black tropical wood, is the wood of species of persimmon. So the persimmon is in the ebony family, Ebenaceae. I think, though, it's better to let the tree stand and save the wood for the tree itself and enjoy the fruit. 


Farmer Fred  30:46

We should probably delineate a bit about the differences between the American persimmon and the Japanese persimmon, the tree itself. The American persimmon isn't quite as well mannered, shall we say, as the Japanese persimmon?


Warren Roberts  31:01

Well  I guess you could say that. But in that case, the fruit is certainly not edible until it is it has blet and fallen. But then when you eat it,  it has a taste like butterscotch. It is so delicious. The American persimmon is amazingly tasty. But again, if if you don't want the fruit, it's probably not a good idea to plant the tree. However, possums love them, and they will clean up after them. There are several mature North American persimmons in the area. There's an old one in Capitol Park (Sacramento) that has beautifully tessellated bark, that looks like tiles set in the trunk. And in that case, there are female trees and male trees for the American persimmon. But I don't know if anybody who has selected them for the male form which would be more useful in landscapes, I think.


Farmer Fred  31:59

Yeah, the Japanese persimmon, you can control the height of the tree as well, to make it easier to pick the fruit. And I will vouch for what you were saying about possums and persimmon trees. In my former place, there were broken branches in the persimmon trees from possum climbing the tree and going too far out on the branch. 


Warren Roberts  32:20

Sort of the impossumble dream. 


Farmer Fred  32:23

The impossumble dream. Thank you very much for that. Yes. But the persimmon. It's tasty fruit once it's either softened up if it's an astringent variety, or if it's a non astringent variety like the Fuyu,  the best selling home persimmon on the market is the Fuyu persimmon. And it is just a wonderful fall treat. I would highly recommend you get one. Warren Roberts, superintendent emeritus of the UC Davis Arboretum and Public Garden (arboretum.ucdavis.edu). Hey, thanks for the persimmon. You're welcome. 


Farmer Fred  32:59

If you're thinking of growing fruit trees, or maybe you already have your own backyard full of fruit trees, you probably have a million questions. Like, which fruit trees will grow well where I live? What are the tastiest fruits to grow? How do I care for them? What are the most important things to know when starting a backyard orchard? Well, the good news is: those answers are just a click away with the informative videos that you can find at DaveWilson.com. That's Dave Wilson Nursery, the nation's largest grower of fruit trees for the backyard garden. At DaveWilson.com , you'll also find planting tips, taste test results, fruit variety recommendations, and links to nurseries in your area that carry Dave Wilson fruit trees. Your harvest to better health begins at DaveWilson.com.


Farmer Fred  33:59

Don’t forget, if you want to learn more about the topics covered on today’s episode of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, subscribe to the free Garden Basics newsletter, on Substack. Details are in today’s show notes. The Garden Basics Podcast will be on its winter schedule from November through January. Which means there will only be one episode per week during this three month period. It’ll come out on Fridays. Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, and we thank them for their support. Garden Basics is available for free wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening, subscribing and leaving comments. We appreciate it.


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