GB 156 TRANSCRIPT Air Pruning with Smart Pots. Rain vs Irrigation. The Cotoneaster.
31:18
SPEAKERS
Debbie Flower, Kurt Reiger, Warren Roberts, Farmer Fred
Farmer Fred 00:00
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.
Farmer Fred 00:32
Did you ever pull a sick, root bound plant out of a too-small plastic or ceramic container and look at the root ball? All those thick roots, going round and round, along the sides and throughout the bottom? All those thick roots impeded the flow of water and fertilizer throughout the plant’s root zone, which may be why that plant was sick! We talk with Smart Pots president Kurt Reiger about how their fabric plant containers don’t let that happen to your plants! It’s called air pruning. We’ll explain. Retired college horticulture professor Debbie Flower answers a listener’s question: how soon should you water your garden after a big rainstorm? It depends. She has tips for using moisture meters, too. The UC Davis Arboretum and Public Garden’s Superintendent Emeritus, Warren Roberts, tells us about the Plant of the Week, a shrub that puts on its show in the winter with colorful berries, the cotoneaster. Podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory, it’s episode 156 of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we will do it all in 30 minutes. Let’s go!
Farmer Fred 01:54
We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. Tim left us a message on the Get Growing with Farmer Fred Facebook page. And he must live here in Northern California, because he says, "After five inches of rain in 24 hours, how long can you not water lawns and plants?" And yes, indeed, back in October, a central swath of California from west to east had an atmospheric river stall out over our heads and dump record amounts of rain in a very short period of time. And let's face it, these atmospheric rivers can happen just about anywhere Debbie Flower.
Debbie Flower 02:29
Yes, they can. As our climate changes, things are intensifying in small locations. So it could happen anywhere.
Farmer Fred 02:37
So I guess the question is, as he says, "How long can you now go without watering lawns and plants?" I'll say it: it depends.
Debbie Flower 02:45
As do many things in horticulture, in the garden, it depends. So you're gonna just have to know the signs of when to water. Temperatures have cooled off, now after that tremendous rain that we had. And so the use of water by the plants has slowed down. Plus, the loss of water from soil has slowed down because humidity is very high due to all the moisture in the air and in the soil. The days are shorter; temperatures are lower. I have lots of pots outside of my kitchen, my kitchen has a sliding glass door, I have a whole collection of potted plants there and the one thing I do to decide when they need water, and, by the way, the watering of them has also slowed down very much. But the one thing I do to figure out when to go out and check for if they need water is to have an "indicator plant". Observe which plant wilts first. For me, that one right now is a vine in a pot that's probably too small for it, but it's an annual vine and it's going to die and so I'm not going to pot it up. And so I watch that one, and when it shows wilting, then I'll go out and check everybody else, and water everybody else. So an indicator plant in your garden works equally as well. You can use a moisture meter if you know how to use it. Moisture meters, what they're really measuring is electrical conductivity in the soil. So the type of soil and the amount of fertilizer in the soil will change the readings and so what you need to do is to learn how to use it. Stick it in the soil when you know it's dry and see where it reads. And then water the soil, let it drain so it's going to take maybe an hour or two. Stick it in the soil again, and you're only going down to the root zone. They have maybe 10 inch, two foot long shanks on them. You don't need to go that deep, maybe only halfway. And see where it reads when it is completely wet. Depending on your soil type and how much fertilizer you've used, that needle will be in various places. So you may want to mark the shank with a marker or something. And so then you can check your soil. When it gets to the low spot, then you know it's time to water.
Farmer Fred 04:49
Yeah, the containers in full sun are probably going to dry out first. If you have raised beds they may dry out quicker than a lawn situation. Lawns are probably going to be the last thing that will be losing water.
Debbie Flower 05:02
Yes. And again, it depends whether there are other plants around the lawn that have their roots underneath the soil; a clay soil; type of grass that you have, how low or tall it's been mowed. So there are many, many ways to check. When I was teaching at the Skill Center, which is a vocational high school in the Sacramento City School District, my students maintained a landscape which included lawn and ornamental plants, as well. They established a vegetable garden. And when I was grading them, I would take a very long shanked screwdriver, it was probably 10 inches long, so eight to 10 inches long. And I was checking that they were irrigating deep enough. And so I wanted to make sure that the shank went down at least six inches, I want that water at least six inches deep. When you hit dry soil, it stops. Soil will typically dry from the top down. But if it's still moist at the bottom, you don't need to irrigate. There are roots down there; they're doing just fine. So you can take a long shank screwdriver and put it in the soil and if it doesn't go in, then you know it's too dry.
Farmer Fred 06:01
And that, too, depends on the soil type. Sandy soil, that screwdriver may go all the way in very easily. In clay soil, you might get a half-inch in.
Debbie Flower 06:09
Right, right. So you need to know all of these things. You need to calibrate. You need to check when you know the soil is dry, how the moisture meter or the screwdriver are going to react. And then, when you know it's wet, how they're going to react.
Farmer Fred 06:21
And if the pot is small enough, you could pick it up. Pick it up when it's dry, then pick it up after you water, and notice the weight difference.
Debbie Flower 06:27
Absolutely. And if you do have a lot of pots and the plants have been in there a long time and a long time is months, it's doesn't have to be longer than that. If they get very, very dry, you may need to put the the whole pot in a bowl or a bucket. I use kitty litter trays and fill that with water and walk away for a while and let it soak up through, because dry soil will not absorb water readily. The soil ball shrinks in the pot. And if you water from the top and you think you've got it nice and wet because the water is going around the outside and through the holes at the bottom. But it hasn't actually entered the soil that the plant is growing in. Put it in another container that you can fill with water, walk away for an hour, then come back. Take it out, let it drain. You've allowed the water to soak in and you get a good watering done that way.
Farmer Fred 07:17
I guess I should stop using Jeanne's roasting pan for this.
Debbie Flower 07:21
You may need it for another purpose. Yes.
Farmer Fred 07:24
All right. So Tim, yeah, it depends. But monitor the situation. Act accordingly. Let us know. Debbie Flower thanks for your help on this. You're welcome Fred.
Farmer Fred 07:38
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Farmer Fred 08:41
I had an interesting discovery. The other day I was taking out a dying tomato plant. It's the end of the season, it had produced its last tomato. It was a Gardener's Delight tomato. I was a little curious about where it was growing, because I was growing this Gardeners Delight tomato in a 15 gallon Smart Pot. And I was really curious about what the roots look like. If you've listened to the Garden Basics podcast for any length of time, you know one thing we talk about a lot: It's all about the soil. Healthy soil means healthy plants. And the one problem that you might have, if you have plants in containers, those plants could develop roots that just go round and round and round. The plant roots gets girdled. And when a plant develops roots that can't go anywhere, t those roots just get fatter and bigger. They can impede water, they can impede fertilizer. It really restricts the health of a plant. And I know that happens with plastic pots. I've seen it happen in ceramic pots with tomatoes and peppers, even. And I was wondering, "Well okay, let's see what the roots look like, coming out of a Smart Pot." So, I pulled that Gardeners Delight tomato out of the 15 gallon Smart Pot and took a look at the results. I will post that picture in the Garden Basics newsletter for this week, because that root system looked like it had been growing in the ground. There were no circling roots. There were no girdling roots. The bottom of it was fully open, so water could penetrate, it looked beautiful. Now, how the heck does a Smart Pot do that? That's why I wanted to bring in Kurt Reiger. He is the president of High Caliper growing, that's the mothership for Smart Pots. And Kurt, thanks for spending a few minutes with us. As anybody knows who listens to this show, I'm a big believer in Smart Pots. I like to have people like you on board who are offering products or services that I believe in, that I use, that I enjoy, that I would purchase again. And these Smart Pots, by the way, were not new Smart Pots. I've had these five or six years. And they hold up, year after year. And I was still amazed at how that healthy roots system developed in the Smart Pot as opposed to a plastic pot or a ceramic pot. How the heck does it do that, Kurt?
Kurt Reiger 11:01
Well, thank you, Fred, for having me on. I really, really appreciate it. And we're a big fan of yours. And I've actually listened to your show before and listened to your show long ago when I was up in Willits, California. And so it's great to be on and great for you to ask me, I'm always happy to come on and talk about roots.
Farmer Fred 11:23
Now with that picture that I sent you, Kurt, and it's a picture that will appear at the Garden Basics newsletter, as well, of that root structure of the tomato plant that has grown in that Smart Pot. Now I know you're a root geek, Kurt, and that's a good thing. Did you notice anything about that root system that stood out to you?
Kurt Reiger 11:42
Well, what I wanted to mention, Fred, is that root structure is actually fascinating, because you said that it looked like it was an in-ground root structure. But if you look at it closely, the tips of those roots are actually swelling or bulbing, there's actually a swelling or bulbing effect at the tip of the roots where it encounters the Smart Pot. And that is a build up. If you were to slice little thin layers of that tip of the root, you'd find a buildup of carbohydrate energy in that root area in that root structure. When the carbohydrates produced by the photosynthesis traveled down the phloem of the plant, they build up or kind of stop. And it forms a bulb of what I call a radish or a carrot forms a bulb at the tip of those root structures, and that bulb of carbohydrate energy greatly adds to the health of the plant, and adds to the plant's ability to form more vegetables and just perform better because you have a buildup in the root structure. It's fascinating.
Farmer Fred 12:45
It's everything a plant wants. And when you give the plants what they need, they will produce for you.
Kurt Reiger 12:51
Yes, and if you can build up a greater amount of carbohydrate energy, you're gonna do better. And the Smart Pot helps you do that. Roots are apically dominated, as you may know, meaning the root grows at the tip of the root. The root growth is at the tip, or the apex of the root and moisture and nutrients travel are absorbed by that root tip and travel up the root structure. And so those feeder roots at the tips of the roots are what you want, you want as much of that as you can get. And that's what absorbs moisture; nutrients are absorbed by that. And in a plastic or a ceramic pot, the root tip comes and it hits that plastic and it starts to circle around and around. And pretty soon the travel distance for moisture and nutrients gets longer and longer because you have, with the circling of a root structure. In a Smart Pot, the root tip hits the side of the fabric, it's engaged in that side of the fabric, kind of caught in the side of the fabric, and it air root prunes, meaning that it kind of dries a little bit and it stops. And that signals the root to branch or fill out, so you have a root pruning and root enhancement. And you literally double or even triple the size of the root structure and most importantly, you double and triple the amount of fibrous feeder roots in the root structure. So, instead of a root circling around 100 times, you have 100 different branching or fibering of the root structure, which allows you to uptake a lot more moisture and nutrients into the plant. And if you have a better root structure, you're going to have more fruit. More roots means more fruit.
Farmer Fred 14:48
Exactly. It's all about the health of the plant. And what amazed me, too, was when I lifted that Smart Pot off the ground with the plant still in it. I was expecting, "I bet that it's gonna be just attached to the soil from roots penetrating the Smart Pot and just be holding itself to the ground." But no, it came right up, there were some little tiny roots that had come out, but it was no big deal to remove that plant from the Smart Pot, and the Smart Pot is still intact.
Kurt Reiger 15:20
Right. But those little tiny roots actually have a purpose and a function that gives your plant an intimate, what I call, an intimate ground contact. You have a close ground contact. When you're in a plastic pot or ceramic pot, you're divorced from the ground. And having that ground contact gives you moisture and nutrient movement up from the ground into the plant. And also most importantly, ground temperatures. You have a ground temperature because of those small little roots inside the container as opposed to being in an ambient situation where ambient temperatures fluctuate greatly, you know, throughout the day, and throughout the week. But if you can have more of a ground temperature situation, which is what you have with a Smart Pot, you're a lot better off and will produce a much better plant.
Farmer Fred 16:12
And that goes without saying, too, that a Smart Pot is going to stay cooler in the summertime, as well.
Kurt Reiger 16:19
Correct. Because it's going to stay at your ground temperature. It reflects the ground temperature, and not just the regular, a hot summer day or, or the cold evenings.
Farmer Fred 16:33
So I followed the advice on your website, SmartPots.com, on the FAQ page, about cleaning the Smart Pot after use. And I've got it sitting on a brick wall, drying out and then I can just brush it off and put it away for the winter.
Kurt Reiger 16:49
Correct. Yeah, and uses it again. And you said you'd used them for how many years?
Farmer Fred 16:54
2015 or 2016 was the first season I used them.
Kurt Reiger 16:59
Right. So, heck you're only on your fifth year. You'll get a lot of use out of it. It'll hold up for a lot longer than that. Smart Pots in my yard are about 12 years old, but we have some customers who used them a lot longer than that. They have used the same one. Unfortunately, it may be better for us if it fell apart and they'd have to buy it again. But it's a very well-made product and will last essentially forever.
Farmer Fred 17:24
And being that they're made in the USA, you weren't waiting at the ports of Long Beach or Los Angeles, waiting for supplies to come in, because it's all made here in the US.
Kurt Reiger 17:34
That is correct. We are headquartered in Oklahoma City and we're a manufacturing company plant here in Oklahoma City. And the materials that go into the product are made in various places, North Carolina, Rhode Island. We get our threads out of Rhode Island. So as long as you consider Oklahoma part of the USA. then it's you made in USA.
Farmer Fred 17:59
Talk a little bit about the line of Smart Pots to because they come in a wide variety of sizes.
Kurt Reiger 18:04
We go all the way from one gallon up to 1000 gallons, and everything in between. We have great customers for all of those sizes. So yeah, we have a very full line. And then we have trays, growing trays, we have raised beds. Kind of rectangle raised beds, raised beds with PVC piping, and we have a number of different sizes.
Farmer Fred 18:39
Some come with handles, or like you mentioned even a PVC frame.
Kurt Reiger 18:44
The fabric is very tough, as you know. So even if you don't have handles, you're able to grab it and yank it around and pull it around. It's not gonna fall apart. It's a very tough product, but we do have handles. And then we also have colors. Our most popular colors are kind of a natural color, a black natural, we have a green and a blue and some other colors as well.
Farmer Fred 19:07
I pity the person who thinks they're doing the right thing by putting drain holes in Smart Pots. They don't need them.
Kurt Reiger 19:14
There are already a million holes. And a Smart Pot is a porous fabric, exceedingly porous. So you don't need to cut holes. In a plastic pot, you need to have a few holes, because that's the only way it can drain. But in a Smart Pot, you literally have a million holes in the fabric so it drains readily. And that again sets up this this intimate ground contact. And of course, it allows the air pruning on the side of the plant. Actually, I don't know if you go out and look at the plants in the morning. Sometimes you can even see small, little white roots creeping through, poking through on the bottom side of the plant. And then by the afternoon, they'll kind of recede back a little bit, but that tells you how healthy the plant is and how vibrant the root structure is growing.
Farmer Fred 20:09
That's called air pruning. Right?
Kurt Reiger 20:11
That's called Air pruning.
Farmer Fred 20:12
All right. For more information about Smart Pots, check out their website: SmartPots.com . And you can find Smart Pots throughout the United States at great retailers like Ace Hardware and True Value stores as well as your favorite local independent nurseries and garden centers. Again, Smart Pots are not only available in the United States, they are available around the world, aren't they?
Kurt Reiger 20:34
Yes, they are. We try to get them out there. Yes.
Farmer Fred 20:38
Alright. So check it out. They might be in a store near you. SmartPots.com is the website for more information. And I hear, coming soon, you'll be able to buy them online.
Kurt Reiger 20:49
We'll sell them online as well. So certainly, SmartPots.com That's for sure.
Farmer Fred 20:53
Alright, Kurt Reiger is the president of High Caliber growing, the manufacturers of Smart Pots. It's a great product. I'll be saving mine and using them again next year. Kurt. Thanks for a few minutes of your time here.
Kurt Reiger 21:05
Thanks for having me on for it. I sure appreciate it. Thank you.
Farmer Fred 21:11
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Farmer Fred 22:32
Maybe your interest was piqued when Debbie Flower said this about moisture meters earlier in this episode:
Debbie Flower 22:38
You can use a moisture meter if you know how to use it. Moisture meters, what they're really measuring, is electrical conductivity in the soil. So the type of soil and the amount of fertilizer in the soil will change the reading.
Farmer Fred 22:52
Whoa…fertilizers can give you a false reading when you use a moisture meter? Why is that? And how do you avoid that, and yet feed your plants and check the soil moisture? The current Garden Basics newsletter, on Substack does a deep dive into how moisture meters work, including the inexpensive ones. And how they can be fooled by the fertilizer that might be in your soil. And, we’ll have that picture of the root ball of that nine month old tomato plant that has been in the same 15 gallon Smart Pot for its whole life. It’s a healthy root ball with no girdling roots. Proof that the Smart Pot’s ability to air prune roots works, the end result being a much healthier plant. As the Garden Basics newsletter grows, so will the subject matter. So, yes, it will be a good supplement for the Garden Basics podcast, along with a lot more garden related material. Find it in the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter on Substack. And best of all, it’s free! There’s a link in today’s show notes; there’s a link near the top of the page at farmerfred.com. Or, just go to substack.com, and do a search for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. That’s substack.com slash garden basics (one word). Think of it as your garden resource that goes beyond the basics. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter. And for you, it’s free. So, remember me in your will. Thank you.
Farmer Fred 24:11
Every week we like to talk with Warren Roberts from the University of California Davis Arboretum and Public Garden, he is their superintendent emeritus. He always has a Plant of the Week for us. And this is a very nice time of the year because there are so many shrubs with berries on them. And today Warren this plant is no exception. Beautiful red berries on this one.
Warren Roberts 24:34
Yes the Cotoneaster. It is also pronounced "cotton easter". It is a rather large genus of shrubs. I think there are about 50 species from the old world, meaning Europe and Asia. It is one of the dependable shrubs, for colors for the berries. Now not all cotoneasters have red berries. There's some that have black fruit. But the ones that are commonly grown are the ones that have beautiful red berries, there are some that are evergreen. And there's some that are deciduous. The deciduous ones, the ones that lose their leaves in the winter, are typically the more cold hardy ones. And there's a cotoneaster called Cotoneaster horizontalis, or rock cotoneaster, which has dependably beautiful red foliage. The stems when they're, they're almost like a very dark gray fish skeleton with the branches come off of the main stem.
Farmer Fred 25:34
That's a good way to put it. I like that. Yes, that's a herringbone pattern.
Warren Roberts 25:39
But yes, it is. But not the smell. The flowers of cotoneaster are typically fly pollinated, so they don't have the fragrances, it's a bit off. However they're dependable plants for winter color with the fruit, whether they're evergreen or deciduous, some of them have become weedy. In the United States, I think in California, we have at least three species that are considered weeds or naturalized. Those are evergreen species. I believe in the landscape they have many uses. They can be pruned, like the hedge; or, just allowed to grow. Some of them can become trees, if you prune them in the right way. I think they're altogether very useful. Just keep in mind that some of them can become a bit weedy, and escape into the environment. The fruit is edible. In fact, there is a species in China, let me see if I've got the right name, is called Cotoneaster racemiflorus. It is a source of a sweet manna-like substance high in dextrose used in Iran and India. And also they have good vitamin C quality as well. Mainly though, they're grown just in gardening, they're grown just for the beautiful fruit stays on the plant all winter. So one of the characteristic color combinations at this time of year is red and green. And you suddenly get that with the Evergreen cotoneasters.
Farmer Fred 27:20
This is a shrub that kind of likes it on the rough side a little bit according to the Sunset Western Garden Book. Cotoneasters look better and produce better crops of berries if planted on dry slopes where they can, by the way, reduce erosion, or plant them in poor soil rather than in rich moist garden soil.
Warren Roberts 27:40
Yes, that is true. I think that rings true to me from my own experience. However, the cotoneasters, almost all of them, come from areas that get almost an inch of rain a week.
Farmer Fred 27:53
Hmm. But it must be good draining soil, then.
Warren Roberts 27:56
Yes, well drained soil typically. Certainly the ones that have become weedy in California, actually one of my favorites, Cotoneaster lacteus, which can be proved to be a nice small tree is one that has become a problem in the moister environments here in California. You could look up which ones are weedy and then plant the ones that are not on the list.
Farmer Fred 28:23
Exactly. And you know, treatment of Cotoneasters is exactly what you want in a spouse. It's something that requires little or no maintenance.
Warren Roberts 28:35
I don't know any spouses, like that. I'm afraid that I would be one of the spouses that needs some care and maintenance. Goodness. And then, some cotoneasters have leaves that are very tiny, very small, about an eighth of an inch across, and then some varieties have leaves that are more than an inch long. So you can get various textures, as well. And some of them like we've already mentioned, the Cotoneaster horizontalis, if you plan it in the right spot, since it's a low growing spreading plant, you really don't have to do very much to it, except give it water once every two weeks, I suppose.
Farmer Fred 29:20
Cotoneasters come in whatever you want in a plant. They can be evergreen, they could be semi evergreen, and they could be deciduous. And it sounds like some of these deciduous cotoneasters really shine in cold winter climates and produce some really nice looking fall foliage and the berries, too.
Warren Roberts 29:41
Yes, altogether a very useful group of plants, a very useful genus of shrubs.
Farmer Fred 29:47
The cotoneaster. It's the plant of the week, courtesy of Warren Roberts, Superintendent emeritus of the University of California Davis, Arboretum and Public Garden. The arboretum should definitely be a garden stop on your bucket list. If you're hitting Arboretums across the United States of America in the near future, add the UC Davis Arboretum to that list. More information at arboretum.uc davis.edu. Warren, thanks for the Cotoneaster.
Warren Roberts 30:16
You're welcome. And another nice thing about the UC Davis Arboretum, it's free.
Farmer Fred 30:21
That seems un-American! But I'll go for it.
Warren Roberts 30:27
Thank you, Fred.
Farmer Fred 30:27
Thank you Warren.
Farmer Fred 30:39
Don’t forget, if you want to learn more about the topics covered on today’s episode of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, subscribe to the free Garden Basics newsletter, on Substack. Details are in today’s show notes. The Garden Basics Podcast will be on its winter schedule from November through January. Which means there will only be one episode per week during this three month period. It’ll come out on Fridays. Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, and we thank them for their support. Garden Basics is available for free wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening, subscribing and leaving comments. We appreciate it.
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