Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Ep. 161 Succulents. School Gardens
27:42
SPEAKERS
Robin Stockwell, Debbie Flower, Farmer Fred
Farmer Fred 00:00
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot
Farmer Fred 00:32
You can grow them indoors and outdoors; they’re easy to care for; and, are very unique and colorful! But which ones are the easiest to care for? We’re talking about succulents today with renowned expert Robin Stockwell. Starting a school garden, or even a home school garden? Which plants and concepts should you consider before turning that first shovelful of soil? We’re going back to school, with Debbie Flower, who knows a thing or two about school gardens. We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory, it’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. And we will do it all in under 30 minutes. Let’s get started!
Farmer Fred 01:20
People looking for a drought tolerant landscape don't need to look any further than succulents. And there's a whole world of succulents that do well in the Central Valley. We're talking to the author of the book, "Succulents, the ultimate guide to choosing designing and growing 200 easy care plants." It's Robin Stockwell. And Robin, you've been associated with succulents for a long time; you've had a nursery.
Robin Stockwell 01:42
The nursery that I sold two and a half years ago is Succulent Gardens located on the Monterey Bay.
Farmer Fred 01:48
This book, "Succulents," is just a gorgeous book. It's much more than a coffee table book. It's really a great how-to if people want an introduction to the world of succulents. And the beautiful part about succulents is it's a great small space garden. Even if you just have a sunny patio or just want to do container gardening. There's a succulent that will fit.
Robin Stockwell 02:08
Absolutely. And actually when I first started out growing succulents, I would ride my bicycle through what then were called trailer parks. Now they're called mobile home parks. But because people who lived in those mobile home parks lived in pretty small spaces, you often found succulents growing on their porches. And so if I saw variety that I didn't have, I'd knock on the door and ask for a cutting or trade for a cutting. And I never took them without permission.
Farmer Fred 02:39
That's important, isn't it? But you learned at an early age how to take cuttings?
Robin Stockwell 02:44
I did, I did.
Farmer Fred 02:45
So how did that interest in succulents begin?
02:48
My interest in succulents actually began by helping a friend. I had gotten out of the army and went back to school and the friends I was in school with, they all graduated from college. And I went back to college and helped a friend who, when he got out of school, he started growing plants and selling them at the farmers market in San Jose, or the flea market. And at that time, I was helping him. We drove to Monterey through the artichoke fields, and saw little sign that said "Mulligan Hill Cactus" and Mulligan Hill Cactus turned out to be a collection of plants that one of the artichoke foreman was growing. And I ended up buying his collection. My friend and I became partners and started growing plants together. And we were just enamored by all the flowers. They were mostly cacti, it was springtime, and they were all in bloom. So we were just enamored and that's how we started working together growing plants.
Farmer Fred 03:51
Well, let's get back to the subject on hand which is your book, "Succulents the ultimate guide to choosing designing and growing 200 easy care plants". And I should mention that if you hear noise around us it's because we are at the wholesalehorticultural show for Northern California called NorCal, here in San Mateo. So we're taking a little break from visiting booths and talking with Robin Stockwell here. Robin, what are some good container succulents that would be easy for people to grow?
Robin Stockwell 04:19
I love echeverias; and echeverias love me. You might know of some echeverias, referred to as hen and chicks. Because the mother plant, the central plant, which sends out babies around the base. The central plant being the hen and babies, the offsets to the mother plant, being the chicks. And there are many, many, many kinds of echeverias. They lend themselves extremely well to container plantings. The roots are somewhat shallow, and they're just tough, versatile plants and there's hundreds and hundreds of varieties and the foliage comes in white black, blue, pink, purple, all different colors. And they flower in the spring and summer, so you get the flowers. Hummingbirds love the flowers. So if you like hummingbirds, they draw hummingbirds. So that's one plant. I love using containers. I love seeing them. I see them doing extremely well in the Central Valley. Probably, they'll do a little bit better in the summertime with a little afternoon protection from the sun. The sedums, there's many types of sedums and they tend to be little ground cover types, and they'll cascade over the side of the pot so they really look cool and they grow out of the side of the pot. And then I think that sempervivums, aloes... most succulents do extremely well in containers.
Farmer Fred 05:48
What sort of exposure do they need?
Robin Stockwell 05:50
They want about two to three hours of sun a day, some varieties will take full sun, even in Sacramento, but they want to be a mature plant, you don't want to take a juvenile and then put it in the full sun. If you're going to put a container in full sun, you really want to get it well established. I myself, even on the coast, where I have been raised and growing my plants. Even on the coast. I love morning sun for growing my plants, and afternoon shade. So some filtering of the sunlight will make your plants a little more vibrant and colorful and have a nice form. Too little sun and they'll they'll start to lose color. So they get 2-3-4 hours sun a day. That's a good amount.
Farmer Fred 06:38
So an Eastern exposure.
Robin Stockwell 06:39
Eastern exposure is wonderful.
Farmer Fred 06:42
What sort of soil mix is best for a containerized succulent?
Robin Stockwell 06:45
So all succulents like to have good drainage. And if you're going to buy a potting mix, you can buy a cactus mix which is basically a mix that has good drainage and aeration. If you don't want to buy a cactus mix, you want to take your own potting mix and use it for succulents. It's a good idea to amend it with either crushed lava or perlite or pumice. Either one of those three things will help you give the aeration and if you take about one part of the crushed lava and three parts of the potting mix. That's a good mix to make a blend that is aerated and drains well.
Farmer Fred 07:29
What are the watering requirements for containerized succulents?
Robin Stockwell 07:34
Watering for succulents is somewhat dependent on the exposure, the time of year, and the type of container. Glazed containers, non porous containers, tend to dry out more slowly. But typically, we water about once a week in a container. In the Central Valley, the maximum you're going to want to water is twice a week during the hotter months. But that's the most you're going to want a water. The important thing is, when you do water, water thoroughly. Make sure the water gets all the way in to the roots. Don't don't just give it a dab of water and assume that's going to help the plant. It will help a little bit, but you'll get better results if you get it all the way down into the bottom.
Farmer Fred 08:19
In the winter time, should they be offered some protection? Or can they take the full elements outdoors?
Robin Stockwell 08:25
When you talk about winter protection. Generally you're talking about freezes, sub freezing temperatures, succulents, almost all the succulents I've grown are good down to 32 degrees. Once you go below 32, you start to thin out the varieties that you can grow. You really want to try to get good information about the plants that you're growing. I recommend, first of all, that when you go to a nursery, if you look at the succulents in the nursery, and they're not labeled, tell the nursery people, "Hey, please start getting labels on plants". And get labels with good information on what grows where, how cold it can go. If you look at my book, you have all the plants list their cold tolerance. It shows how how long it takes to get bigger, how big do they grow? When do they flower? What color of flower? That's what labeling is about. We're kind of in a transition now. And what you want to do as a consumer is insist on good information from your nursery folks.
Farmer Fred 09:32
Excellent advice, there. And, of course, your book is an excellent resource as well: "Succulents" by Robin Stockwell. One more question, and I've heard this answered both ways. And I'm not sure which is right. During a frost or a freeze. It's not uncommon advice to water plants to help stave off the effects of a frost or a freeze. But I've heard with succulents, do not water them if a frost or freeze is predicted. True or false?
Robin Stockwell 09:59
My thing about a freeze is they go through the freeze better if they're dry. Sometimes you don't have that ability because you might have a rainstorm and then it clears and freezes. So there's not much you can do about that. But if you have the option, I like them to be dry during a hard freeze.
Farmer Fred 10:20
All right, excellent advice. The book again is "Succulents - the ultimate guide to choosing designing and growing 200 easy care plants." It is by Robin Stockwell. It's published by Oxmore House.
Robin Stockwell 10:31
And it's basically a Sunset book.
Farmer Fred 10:35
And it's a beautiful book too. I mean, it's easy to understand, beautiful pictures. Robin, it's a pleasure to meet you and running into you, here at the NorCal show. And this is one of my favorite books. I'm not giving this one away.
Robin Stockwell 10:48
This has been serendipitous. You and I did not schedule this meeting. We had a phone call scheduled on Monday. Yes. And here we are.
Farmer Fred 10:57
I think that's wonderful. All right. It's all good. "Succulents" by Robin Stockwell. Robin, thank you so much.
Robin Stockwell 11:02
I've been wanting to meet you. This is awesome. Thank you so much, Fred.
Farmer Fred 11:07
Please excuse the audio quality that you just heard, on our interview with Robin Stockwell. That interview was conducted a few years ago (in a noisy location).
Farmer Fred 11:18
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Farmer Fred 12:23
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Farmer Fred 13:43
Have you taken a look at the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter yet? There’s one that accompanies each episode of the Garden Basics podcast. It’s a deeper dive into what was discussed on the podcast, along with more great gardening information. And yes, we will have more information about succulents and school gardens, but we will also answer a common question among vegetable growers this time of year: How can you speed up pepper seed germination? Our tips can cut a week or more off the usual two or three weeks it takes to see pepper seed sprouts. You can find a link to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter in the podcast show notes; or, at Farmer Fred dot com; or, by going to substack dot com slash garden basics. Think of it as your garden resource that goes beyond the basics. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter. And it’s free. Please subscribe and share it with your gardening friends and family. The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter. And thank you for listening.
Farmer Fred 14:51
We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. A lot of ways for you to get your question into the show. You can email us: Fred at farmer Fred dot com. You can call us: 916-292-8964 .You can text us at that number as well. 916-292-8964. Go to speakpipe.com/garden basics ; there, you can talk to your computer or your smartphone and leave a question that way. You can leave it at the Get Growing with Farmer Fred Facebook page or at @FarmerFred on Twitter or Farmer Fred Hoffman on Instagram. Several ways you can get your questions in, like Nick, who is a school teacher. Debbie Flower is here, she used to be a school teacher. A college professor.
Debbie Flower 15:35
I was, yes. He says he's an assistant superintendent. He's a manager of a school.
Farmer Fred 15:40
All right. Nick, wants to start a school garden in Santa Clarita, which is in the northern most reaches of Los Angeles County. And interesting that he drives from Kern County in the Bakersfield area to Santa Clarita. People who drive the Grapevine every day get a special place in heaven. He says, "We have the opportunity to build an Edible Schoolyard at one of our elementary schools and we are doing it big. We would put in a backyard orchard to teach backyard orchard culture, we are trying to select the landscape. What should be planted around the kitchen lab? Do you have any good ideas, maybe plants that can be used as dyes? Maybe just natives? I'm hoping that you can come up with something for the kids. And any information would be appreciated." So, a school garden.
Debbie Flower 16:29
That's ambitious.
Farmer Fred 16:30
Yes, he is ambitious. And all gardening is local. And in California. One thing to consider if you're teaching children about gardening is to make them aware of drought tolerant plants, right?
Debbie Flower 16:41
Yes, drought tolerant plants and the possibly changing environment that it's getting warmer and drier here.
Farmer Fred 16:48
Yeah. I'm not sure how you're going to irrigate these plants. But that is something you're going to have to consider.
Debbie Flower 16:54
Yeah, I didn't get a lot of details. So you don't know how big is big, and what the exposure is, the sun exposure; where the building is, what the winds are. There's a lot of things we don't know. But I've done a little bit of gardening with children. And it depends on their age, and what they're interested in. The flashy things, of course, are always interesting to them, meaning flowers, things that attract insects, because they can look at the insects. When my boys were very young. They went to a daycare that had a playground on the west side of a brick building in Reno, Nevada. That was covered with gravel. And on the other side of the fence was a blacktop parking lot.
Farmer Fred 17:37
No heat there.
Debbie Flower 17:38
Yes. So it's a very hot place and it just drove me crazy. So I planted scarlet runner beans, I did a lot of investigation, because these were young children from toddlers on up, and they might eat the plant or the seed or the pod. And my research indicated the entire plant can be consumed and not cause harm to the children. So I planted them. It took a long time. Bean seeds only germinate when the soil is very warm.
Farmer Fred 18:06
The kids count plant them, those are big seeds.
Debbie Flower 18:08
They are big seeds. But I planted and germinated them. It took three plantings because the soil was just not warm enough yet. Finally, they started growing up this cyclone fence, he mesh metal fence, and they did really really well. And they bloomed red, which the kids loved. They were visited by insects, which the kids loved. And then they produce these beautiful long pods which were green and brown speckled, and then they became pink and brown speckled, and then they became brown. And then they opened them up, and there are these shiny, beautiful seeds inside. And so things like that, depending on your age group, things like that are very interesting to children.
Farmer Fred 18:45
One aspect of agriculture here in California that's growing by leaps and bounds are hedgerows. And a hedgerow, I think, would be a great idea for a school garden where you're growing a variety of plants, from perennials up to shrubs, maybe some small trees as well, that attract a whole host of garden good guys, including birds.
Debbie Flower 19:06
Yes, you want a hedgerow. It has been promoted for California agriculture for fields, like around a grape vineyard, or any other kind of a truck crop field, any kind of monoculture like an orchard of almonds or something, so that the beneficials - the animals, insects, etc, that control the other bad guys in the garden - have a place to live and feed and be protected.
Farmer Fred 19:33
It's amazing how by attracting the birds, just how much control they have over the worm population. I mean the bad worm population: the tomato worms, the cabbage loopers.
Debbie Flower 19:46
My current garden is right under some low tension power lines there. They're not the big high ones. And the birds sit there regularly and I have never had a tomato hornworm in this vegetable garden since I moved here.
Farmer Fred 19:57
And we've seen here in California and maybe where you live, as well, that a lot of community gardens now are in those spaces, the right-of-ways, that are taken up by power lines. And that's a great idea.
Debbie Flower 20:08
It is. You get some hawks that will be up in those high places. You got bat boxes. I have a chart which I have seen numerous times in over decades and it's for California but it's establishing hedgerows for pest control and wildlife. And it lists the plants which are primarily shrubs: Willow, they don't have to be trees, they can be shrubs. Ceanothus which is also called California lilac, Coffee Berry, holly leaf cherry, Yarrow, which is Aesculus. Silver lacevine, toyon, which is Christmas Berry, golden sticky monkey flower, elderberry, California buckwheat, deer grass, creeping Boobialla, which is an Australian groundcover, California fuchsia, narrowleaf milkweed, St. Catharines' lace, and coyote bush. And then this chart shows you what months they bloom. And that is critical. That you have something in bloom every month of the year, so that the insects have a place to hang out, the grasses, the ornamental grasses, deer grasses, one of them is a place that the beneficial insects spend their winter and hibernate. And so they come out and so we don't want to cut them back. This is specific to California but wherever you live, you should be able to find a series of plants. If you don't have a list for hedgerow plants, then maybe pollinator plants, insectary plants or bee-attractive plants might be available from your local Cooperative Extension or local ag commission. They might be able to give you a list of those plants. Notice that the list also includes deciduous plants as well as evergreen. And the Evergreen ones are the ones that some of the good guys are going to make nests in, and hide in, and be protected. And so you need that in the hedgerow.
Farmer Fred 21:54
Yeah, very important to keep the small bird population happy. Have those evergreen shrubs, right? Plants like ceanothus where they can protect themselves from those hawks who are on the powerlines.
Debbie Flower 22:06
Another idea he mentioned, dye plants. That would be a cool thing for the students to work in. That's D-Y-E. You can dye yarns or whatever if they have a local sheep population. Another category of plants that would be good around a kitchen lab would be herbs. And I have, as I get older and lazier in my gardening, something I've concentrated more on is herbs for the cooking. So I have sage and thyme, and marjoram and oregano, which here in California are perennials. Rosemary is a shrub. But these can also all be grown in containers and covered for the winter or protected for the winter, if that's necessary. And then you have your annual shrubs like cilantro, parsley and basil, which all can be used in cooking.
Farmer Fred 22:55
I noticed on your chart, I can't even read the chart from where you're sitting. But I noticed that the longest line and I'm just guessing, that the longest line something that is in bloom is from May through December. I bet that's California buckwheat,
Debbie Flower 23:07
it is. California buckwheat is April through December, yes. And I have a couple of those.
Farmer Fred 23:16
It's an amazing plant, in that the flower actually changes color over the months. It starts off kind of white. And by December it's this beautiful, reddish brown, rusty color.
Debbie Flower 23:30
Yes. And if not pruned, it becomes a mound. The stems grow up and fall over. And I imagine they're things that maybe crawl under that mound for protection.
Farmer Fred 23:38
Wherever you live, there are native plants like that. Right where the garden good guys want to live, spend the winter. Yes, it's often been said that if you have deer grass, don't trim it back too early in the winter, wait until February or March to trim it back. Because ladybugs like to spend the winter right in the middle of that clump.
Debbie Flower 23:47
If you expose them, that's a problem. So, diversity in the garden leads to a healthy garden. A school garden to begin with, is ambitious. You need people to take care of it. You need good irrigation, good pest control, mulching, all kinds of stuff. It's great for the children. But pest control can be greatly reduced. If you have this hedgerow of plants, this diversity in the landscape will allow nature to take care of itself.
Farmer Fred 24:31
You could probably combine this as a science project, you could probably combine it with a Native American studies class, as well, about which local Indian tribes lived in your area. And what did they do with what grew there.
Debbie Flower 24:45
Yes. What are their practices? Yeah, very good idea. Very good idea.
Farmer Fred 24:50
Here in the Sacramento area, there are an amazing number of sites you can visit where there are these crevices in the rocks, where the Native American tribes, I think in this case, it was the Miwuks, would be crushing acorns, grinding acorns on grinding rocks. And then over in the Delta area where they would be using elderberry stems for weaving or to make pipes. Yeah. Or to make pipes.
Debbie Flower 25:15
Yeah, that's to shoot peas. Yes.
Farmer Fred 25:19
Study what your local Native Americans did with what grew there.
Debbie Flower 25:24
That would be a great thing to add to a school garden, that would make so many lessons. Yes.
Farmer Fred 25:30
So there you go, Nick, lots of help there. Thanks so much for writing in, good luck with the school garden program. And I hope more and more schools, and for that matter, homeschool kids, get that opportunity too.
Debbie Flower 25:41
Don't let your lack of space limit your ability to do at least a little bit of that. You can always use containers.
Farmer Fred 25:48
Exactly. Yeah, and I understand Smart Pots are very good for that.
Debbie Flower 25:51
I was just gonna say Smart Pot. Smart Pots come in variety of sizes, including huge.
Farmer Fred 25:56
Yes, by the way, I want to mention that I had a pepper plant growing in a Smart Pot that I had in one part of the yard. And I decided to move it to the warmest part of the yard, and It is still producing peppers.
Debbie Flower 26:10
Oh my gosh. It's out there on top of a barrel here. We are a week before Thanksgiving. Yeah, I can see it now.
Farmer Fred 26:16
It's loaded with little peppers. Yeah, it's called the Nadapeno. It's an heirloom sweet pepper.
Debbie Flower 26:21
Oh, it is sweet. I was thinking the smaller they are the hotter they are.
Farmer Fred 26:25
That is why it's called the NADA peno.
Debbie Flower 26:26
Okay. So it's not hot. The name is telling. It's sweet. Yeah.
Farmer Fred 26:30
But yeah, it likes it there.. All right. And with a Smart Pot, you can easily move these plants. If they're in containers, the Smart Pot containers, you can move them place to place and maybe get a little longer seasonality out of them.
Debbie Flower 26:45
Good point. Do that with a school garden too.
Farmer Fred 26:47
Yes. Debbie Flower. Thanks for your help on this.
Debbie Flower 26:50
Oh, it's a pleasure, Fred. Thank you.
Farmer Fred 27:03
Don’t forget, if you want to learn more about the topics covered on today’s episode of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred, subscribe to the free Garden Basics newsletter, on Substack. Details are in today’s show notes. The Garden Basics Podcast will be on its winter schedule from November through January. Which means there will only be one episode per week during this three month period. It’ll come out on Fridays. Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, and we thank them for their support. Garden Basics is available for free wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening, subscribing and leaving comments. We appreciate it.
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