166 Roses vs Weeds. Transplanting Tips. Artwork

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred

Tips for beginning and experienced gardeners. New episodes arrive every Friday. Fred Hoffman has been a U.C. Certified Master Gardener since 1982 and writes a weekly garden column for the Lodi News-Sentinel in Lodi, CA. A four-decade fixture in Sacramento radio, he hosted three radio shows for Northern California gardeners and farmers: The KFBK Garden Show, Get Growing with Farmer Fred, and the KSTE Farm Hour. Episode Website: https://gardenbasics.net

All Episodes

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred

166 Roses vs Weeds. Transplanting Tips.

February 08, 2022 • Fred Hoffman • Season 3 • Episode 166

Winter rose care season is here for many of us. Besides pruning, weed killing may be on your list of things to do in the rose bed. But before you reach for that spray bottle of weed killer, listen to what Master Rosarian Charlotte Owendyk has to say. Plus, she has alternatives for thwarting weeds among your rose bushes. It’s also the time of year for transplanting many perennials and shrubs. Debbie Flower, our favorite retired college horticulture professor, goes through the how’s and the why’s to transplant successfully. And perhaps to your surprise, she is a fan of using strictly native soil when it comes to transplanting perennials and shrubs. And it has to do with watering. She explains.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory, it’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery.

And we will do it all in under 30 minutes. Let’s go!
Live links, product information, transcripts, and chapters available at the Buzzsprout home site for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred.

Pictured:
Glyphosate Damage on Rose Bush (Photo courtesy of Oregon State University)

Links:
Subscribe to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter . It's free!
Smart Pots
Dave Wilson Nursery
Roses: Cultural Practices and Weed Control
Roses: Diseases and Disorders
Round Up Pro Label Instructions
Roundup Pro
How Water Flows (or Doesn't Flow) Through Soil

Got a garden question?

• Leave an audio question without making a phone call via Speakpipe, at https://www.speakpipe.com/gardenbasics

• Call or text us the question: 916-292-8964.

• E-mail: fred@farmerfred.com

All About Farmer Fred:
The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter
Farmer Fred website: http://farmerfred.com
Daily Garden tips and snark on Twitter
The Farmer Fred Rant! Blog
Facebook: "Get Growing with Farmer Fred"
Instagram: farmerfredhoffman
Farmer Fred Garden Videos on YouTube

As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases from possible links mentioned here.

And thank you for listening.

Thank you for listening, subscribing and commenting on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast and the Beyond the Garden Basics Newsletter.

Garden Basics 166 Roses vs Weeds. Transplanting Tips. TRANSCRIPT Feb. 8, 2022

Farmer Fred 0:00

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. it's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred. Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred 0:32

Farmer Fred 1:36

Here on the Garden Basics podcast, we like to answer your questions. You know how to get your questions in. We have a phone number that you can call. And, you can text with pictures, as well. The number is 916 292 8964 , 916 292 8964 . Or better yet, go to speakpipe.com/garden basics and yell the question at your computer. It's great audio quality: speakpipe.com/garden basics. Email? Yes. Send it to Fred at farmerfred.com dot com. You can leave questions at the Get Growing with Farmer Fred Facebook page. Or at the Farmer Fred Hoffman pages on Instagram or Twitter. We get a question today via email, from Debbie, who writes in: "I have a rose bed that's become overgrown with grass in between the rose bushes. What can I put down that will kill the grass but not the roses? Thank you for any input you might have." Let's bring in a rose expert. It's Charlotte Owendyk, Master Rosarian with the Sierra Foothills Rose Society. And yes, if people inherit an overgrown patch of rose bushes, there may be stuff growing beneath them.

Charlotte Owendyk 2:43

Yeah, roses don't like a lot of competition because they're hungry and they're big feeders. And so if you have a lot of grass around your roses, you can't put weed killer down. You can't put Roundup because the rose bush stems have a very thin bark and the Roundup will get absorbed and they will actually get stunted. We oftentimes get called out when people say, "What's wrong with my roses?" It's Roundup damage. The rose bushes get crinkly, they get kind of contorted. And sometimes someone will have sprayed 15-20 feet away and the spray will drift and we'll still see Roundup damage. So keep that Roundup, keep the grass killers away from your roses. There's two things you can do. You can try to smother those weeds, put newspaper down or cardboard down and then put mulch on top. And if you have any weeds coming up through that, pull, pull those out as best you can. And just be consistent. Be tough. The more consistent you are, the weed seeds, rhizomes and little bulblets that come up, you got to pull them out, you got to outlast them. And most of the Rosarians around here, we're pretty tough on them. We walk around and that's one of the things that we do, is we make sure we don't get any grass seeds or any Oxalis or other noxious weeds around our roses. A lot of us just go and do hand pruning. I had a noxious weed in my vegetable patch, I have a raised vegetable bed. I did the smother routine, and that really worked and I will continue to do it again. Because all I do is plant my tomatoes in there and then when any popped up, I would pull out those weeds. So that's all I can recommend on that, except if you have too many weeds, you don't think that smothering is going to work for you, then the best thing to do if you really want those roses, you could try taking cuttings in there and put it in in a little bit of pot with some good potting soil and keep it moist. No full sun, keep the cuttings in the shade and see if it'll start for you. Or, shovel prune those roses. In other words, get rid of those roses or take them out. You can get rid of the roses. Shovel them out. If they're older roses, you'll find they've got some pretty good roots in there. And get rid of all the grass around it, hose it off, get rid of everything, put them in a pot and keep them growing, and then go to town and work on eliminating all the grass in that area. I know someone who had that situation. They had a lot of bermuda grass. They basically pulled all the roses out. He then did the roundup. He did the smothering, and then he put raised beds on top of that. He says, I want to make sure. And he waited over a year. He just kept track of it. Every time he saw something come up, he would attack it. So he's pretty sure in that area where his raised bed is going to be fine.

Farmer Fred 5:41

Yeah, people don't realize that roses are rather thin skinned creatures. And even though you might be wanting to spray Roundup, by the way, the active ingredient in Roundup is glyphosate. They may be wanting to spray that glyphosate when the rose is dormant, when there's no leaves on the plant. How can it be possibly be absorbed, they might ask. It can be absorbed through the skin of a dormant rose bush, and you will not see the damage until it starts putting out new leaves and flowers.

Charlotte Owendyk 6:08

I had one situation where I just painted a little bit of Roundup on a noxious weed underneath one of my miniatures, because it was really close, I couldn't quite get it. It evaporated, and I could see Roundup damage.

Farmer Fred 6:24

Wow, I was thinking well, maybe you know, applying it like that, painting it or with a sponge or something like that. But you're right, the vapors could get easily through the rose branch skin, right.

Charlotte Owendyk 6:36

And that was a miniature rose. So it was really close by, but I could see it. So I ended up that I cut out a few canes in that area. The rest of the plant wasn't really damaged. But I saw it right away. So it didn't. But yeah, that can happen. Sometimes people say, "well, nobody sprayed any Roundup." But it could have been the neighbor, if you've got a good windy day, and it can impact on your yard.

Farmer Fred 7:00

That brings up a whole other set of issues about spraying glyphosate, and the perfect weather conditions for doing it. It's when the wind isn't blowing. And for it to be effective, the temperature has to be above 55, but below 85 In order for it to be the most effective. And what a lot of people don't realize is they think, "oh a foggy day, though there's no wind, I will do it when it's overcast, there's a lot of moisture in the air." The problem is that glyphosate can stay suspended in the air because of all that moisture, and travel even further on the slightest of breezes. So yeah, every time I hear somebody say, "nobody sprayed any Roundup around here", I have to think well, maybe not you. I like the idea of smothering it. That's always a good idea. Put down some newspaper or cardboard, and some mulch. Okay, so you have to go in there once and clean it out.

Charlotte Owendyk 7:56

You just got to be persistent. I helped a friend of ours, and she just got overwhelmed by the Bermuda grass in a new bed. So we just tackled it. We had a great time. We sat there, us gals sat there, you get to yakking and we had a good time for an hour, two hours. And then had a little adult libation afterwards. And she's a great baker. And that that was a fun time.

Farmer Fred 8:22

Oh, a weed party.

Charlotte Owendyk 8:24

Yes, we had a weed party.

Farmer Fred 8:27

There you go. That's how you control weeds under roses.

Charlotte Owendyk 8:31

We have a tendency to be old school when you have roses because of the problem with the drift in the Roundup.

Farmer Fred 8:39

Charlotte Owendyk, thanks for helping us control those grassy weeds underneath our roses.

Charlotte Owendyk 8:43

You're welcome.

Farmer Fred 8:48

Smart Pots. It's the original award winning fabric planter. It's sold worldwide and Smart Pots are proudly made 100% in the USA. Smart Pots, by the way, are BPA-free with no risk of chemicals leaching into your soil, your herbs, vegetables and other animals. That's why organic growers prefer Smart Pots. And they last for years. Some gardeners have been using the same Smart Pots for over a decade. Smart Pots breathable fabric creates a healthy root structure for plants. Because the fabric breathes, Smart Pots are better suited than plastic pots, especially for really hot and really cold climates. And unlike a plastic pot, the fabric won't crack or break from frost or when dropped. For more information, visit SmartPots.com/Fred. And don't forget that "slash Fred" part, because on that page are details of discounts when you buy Smart Pots at Amazon. Visit SmartPots.com/Fred.

Farmer Fred 9:52

Debbie Flower is here. Our favorite retired college horticultural professor. We have a quick tip about transplanting shrubs and perennials. I like to call this part of the show, "Life is too short to put up with a problem plant." Sometimes, this time of year, you go out and you stare at a plant. And your neighbors walk by, wondering, What are you staring at? I'm staring at my garden, Thank you. I'm staring at this plant, trying to remember if it did anything this year, did it bloom? Did it not bloom? Is it over three years old? If it hasn't done anything in three years, life is too short to put up with a problem plant. So either move it to an area that's more hospitable to good growth. Or what I like to do is, pot them up and give them away, and say, "Here, you try."

Debbie Flower 10:41

Yeah, Gee, thanks. I think I have some of those that you gave me in my yard.

Farmer Fred 10:45

I guess I can't offer you the dinner plate hibiscus that I have potted up, that I took out?

Debbie Flower 10:51

I wouldn't take it. It takes too much moisture.

Farmer Fred 10:54

Well, there's that and I took them out. Because they're tropical plants or tropical looking plants. I don't have a tropical garden. It just didn't fit in the garden,

Debbie Flower 11:03

Right. Yeah. Right.

Farmer Fred 11:05

There's a lot of reasons under the definition, "problem plant."

Debbie Flower 11:08

Right. And everybody's reasons are going to be different,

Farmer Fred 11:10

A few basic rules for moving or transplanting shrubs or perennials, here in California USDA zone nine. You can get away with it now, in the wintertime. Because the ground isn't frozen.

Debbie Flower 11:26

We have fairly warm temperatures. Well, nights are getting down into the 30s.

Farmer Fred 11:31

Yeah, where we live, and soil temperatures are in the mid 40s.

Debbie Flower 11:34

Right. And you can get root growth when soil temperatures are 45 degrees. The plants can be active, it's not fast-active, but it's active.

Farmer Fred 11:44

I think basically, when it comes to transplanting shrubs or perennials, the general rule would be, don't do it in the extreme seasons, wherever you live, to avoid too much heat, or too much cold. And too much rain.

Debbie Flower 11:58

Yes, yes, you need to wait two to three days after a rainstorm. You want two to three dry days after a rainstorm to allow the soil to do whatever drainage it's going to do. Walking on, digging in very wet soil will damage soil structure. And that makes the soil less hospitable for roots. So you don't want to do that. You want to make sure that you've got two to three days dry days after a rainstorm, too, before you start digging in. The type of soil you have will potentially make a difference. If you have clay, you might even want to wait longer than that. But clay will take a really, really long time to drain. Plants in the fall and winter have sent a lot of storage food to their roots so that they can live through the winter without having to do a lot of photosynthesis. So even moving dormant plants can be done right now. You want to dig a nice circle around the plant, out from the plant, with as much of a root ball as you can carry, as you can handle. Dig down, get under it and then pop that puppy out of the soil, move it to the new spot. Hopefully you've already dug a hole there for that new plant. Be sure to rough up the sides of the hole that you dig to put the new plant in. That gives the plant a place for the rootsto just sort of grab on to and move into the field soil. If you have a slick side inside the hole that you dug where you're putting the plant it can act like a pot. So then rough up the sides, put the plant in at field level or slightly above because you are using the same kind of soil, make sure you fill in any gaps that are between the root ball you moved in the hole you dug and mulch up to the edge of the hole or even a little bit beyondt but not not touching the stem or trunk of whatever plant you just moved.

Farmer Fred 13:49

You brought up a very interesting question there. And that is what kind of soil should I be filling in with? If you dig out a plant, you're going to have a hole. And chances are, you've got a big ball of soil going along with that plant. And that's not that big a problem to transplant that someplace else in your garden if that area of the garden has the same conditions. But then you got a hole in the original spot.

Debbie Flower 14:15

You want to take that soil from the hole you dug and move that back to where you took the plant out.

Farmer Fred 14:22

What about all the soil that's around that plant? Would it be better to keep that intact and put that in a new spot? Or should you wash off that soil from the plant and plant it in a new spot if that's what you're going to do?

Debbie Flower 14:37

Personally I would leave the soil attached to the roots of the plant I am moving. Put it in the hole I dug. Use whatever soil I took out of that hole to settle that plant in so it's stable and then take the rest of it and move it back to the hole where I took the plant out and fill the hole with the soil from the other hole.

Farmer Fred 15:01

OK, double digging, basically. So you're replacing the soil you took out from hole A with the soil you took out from Hole B,

Debbie Flower 15:09

yes. It should be similar. It may not. There are landscapes where that will not be similar, but it is closer to the texture of the soil you have in the ground than say something you bought in a bag.

Farmer Fred 15:24

I think that's what most people do though, is they will be using that potting soil that they bought at the nursery as, if you will, hamburger helper, to fill in the gaps. What are the problems with that?

Debbie Flower 15:36

That creates a change, a drastic change in texture, and that will impede water movement into the root ball and out of the root ball. And so you're basically containerizing the plant if you surround it with what some people call "the good soil" or the bagged stuff, something you brought in, it's very different than what you have in the ground. And you create, you basically pot the plant, and that will limit its ability to do anything to grow to absorb moisture and nutrients, it's the wrong thing to do.

Farmer Fred 16:04

Unlike most Washington politicians, I'm willing to compromise. So how about taking that commercial potting soil that you bought, and mixing it 50-50 with the existing soil in order to fill in the gaps?

Debbie Flower 16:18

I still wouldn't do it now.

Farmer Fred 16:19

Really?

Debbie Flower 16:19

Yeah. That is done sometimes to create an entire bed, to creating a new bed for your annuals or your iris garden or something, some theme, a tropical section, and you want to make it easier to plant in, you want your plants to take off really well. Or you're doing a lawn, then some amendment that comes in a bag, some sort of container. So some sort, it's always organic matter is mixed in with the top of the entire bed the topsoil of the entire bed out of 50-50, at most, it should really only be 20% of the new stuff.

Farmer Fred 16:54

See, you are willing to compromise.

Debbie Flower 16:56

Okay, I'll go 20%.

Farmer Fred 16:58

All right, as long as you have enough soil to fill in the gaps.

Debbie Flower 17:04

For transplanting I would only use field soil. The only time I would amend is if I'm doing an entire bed. Because the roots need to grow far and wide. Plant roots grow two and a half to three times the height of the plant away from the trunk. So it makes a huge root system. Anything you put in its way that changes the texture of the soil will stop that and you'll start getting circling, girdling roots, and the plant will fall over, if it's a tall one, in the wind.

Farmer Fred 17:33

So basically, when the roots hit that commercial potting mix, they go, Oh, hey, this is really nice. I'm staying here.

Debbie Flower 17:40

NO, they go, this is different. And I'm so I'm staying where I know what's going on.

Farmer Fred 17:45

Oh, okay. So it even stops before it hits that soil or just as it hits them.

Debbie Flower 17:50

Because there's a change in moisture. The organic matter can either dry out faster, or it can stay too moist. There's a lot of variables in there. But it's a change, a drastic change, in texture. And so the water movement stops at a drastic change in texture, and the roots won't go there.

Farmer Fred 18:10

You're destroying the entire bagged soil industry here.

Debbie Flower 18:14

Well, that's kind of what I was gonna say. It's an industry. And the myth that you need to amend and amend means to till into your field soil, that comes from them, I believe, I don't have proof. Using it on the surface is different. If I had a whole bunch, if somebody dumped a whole bunch of bagged goods on my driveway for some strange reason, I'd open them up and lay them on the surface, use it as a mulch.

Farmer Fred 18:40

Then you still have two different layers of soil. Right and you have a watering issue. The water would stop after it got through the really porous.

Debbie Flower 18:48

That's right, it does. It goes through the porous stuff, it stops at the field soil and it penetrates the field soil at the rate the field soil will accept it. All my plants have their roots in the field soil. And so they get the water at the same rate. But the mulch on top will break down over time if it's organic, and release nutrients to the plants.

Farmer Fred 19:07

Alright, riddle me this then. I'm building a raised bed. Obviously, I need a lot of soil to fill that raised bed. How much of the new stuff should I incorporate with the soil layer at the bottom of the raised bed at the foundation there? How deep?

Debbie Flower 19:25

Yeah. The first is how deep can you go? What kind of tool are you going to use? You know, you can't go two feet deep which would be a good depth for root system. If you're using a rototiller, you're going to go maybe three, four inches deep. So then I would put two inches of the new stuff on top and I would till it in well, to get a mixture of a layer, a transition layer, if you will, of the bagged goods that are going to be in the raised bed and the field soil and that does help with the drainage.

Farmer Fred 19:58

I guess if you're are really industrious, you could maybe dig out from the bottom of the raised bed, dig out another six inches or so of soil and mix that.

Debbie Flower 20:09

In a wheelbarrow at 50-50. Well, for a transition zone, you want to be 50.

Farmer Fred 20:15

Okay, all right. And because that's important to get the water to percolate deeper into the soil, because if the water is running out of your raised bed just at the bottom of your border, that means that you've got some penetration issues going on, and the roots are going to stop there.

Debbie Flower 20:30

Right. And so you've containerized your plants in your raised bed, and their roots aren't going any deeper, and you can grow stuff that way. That's doable. It's just more stressful because it's a big container. But it heats up quickly, it cools down quickly, it gets saturated with water quickly, it dries out more quickly. If you can have a open bottom to your raised bed, so that the roots can go deeper, the water can go deeper, it's easier to take care of those plants in that raised bed.

Farmer Fred 20:55

This is gonna be a tough one to do.

Debbie Flower 20:57

I'll tell you this is one of the hardest things for people to understand. Yeah, I have a series of slides that I would show in teaching slides. Yes, slides, which I digitized. Oh, then I made it a PowerPoint. But I initially got them as slides. It's physics of soil and water. And that has not changed over time. And it was done in a laboratory at a college and they had a university and they put sand over clay, Clay over sand, gravel in the middle. That went side to side, gravel in the middle, that was just as if you dug a hole and only put gravel in the bottom. Water avoids that gravel. It goes totally around it and so your plant will have no water underneath it. Water stops at the gravel, water stops at the sand-clay interface, regardless of whether the sand is on top or the clay is on top. Loam was in there, too. Water stops until you've saturated the upper level, then the next drop pushes water through. The water does move. But all the pores in that upper level are full of water and not oxygen, and roots need oxygen to be healthy.

Farmer Fred 22:05

Alright, getting back though, to transplanting trees and shrubs. Remember, that's what we're talking about here. We talked about you want three or four dry days in order to ease the process. And the other thing we should point out, too, is that you don't want to be walking on wet soil. It compacts.

Debbie Flower 22:22

Yes, in fact, you don't want soil naked to a rainstorm. Because water is powerful enough that it will cause the soil to compact. It will break down soil structure and cause it to compact. So, mulch of some type is really desirable during a rainstorm. And don't walk on it.

Farmer Fred 22:40

And that's why I put oak leaves, shredded oak leaves, on my raised beds for the winter if I'm not planting in them. And even if I'm planting in them, I will still put oak leaves around the plants. In order to calm down the rain, if you will.

Debbie Flower 22:56

Right. When that water droplet comes down, and if you Google "water droplet" you can see it's very powerful and it will hit the shredded oak leaf then and will roll off the leaf, into the bed, and so the water will get to the bed in a gentle way. And the leaf has stopped the power of the water from compacting the soil and destroying the soil structure.

Farmer Fred 23:16

The only way they're removing bagged soil, is out of my cold dead hands.

Debbie Flower 23:22

You're using that in your raised beds.

Farmer Fred 23:23

Oh yeah, I do. And I use worm castings and compost, and of course, bagged soil for containerized plants.

Debbie Flower 23:32

Yes containerized plants. That's the reason bagged soil should exist. And so the bag soil industry should be happy because containerized plants are becoming more and more useful to people and more and more popular.

Farmer Fred 23:45

Thank you for tossing them a bone. Debbie Flower, she's the one. Thanks for helping us transplant shrubs and perennials with an interesting scenic bypass.

Debbie Flower 23:55

Right, I hope it was understandable.

Farmer Fred 24:07

If you haven’t shopped at your favorite independently owned nursery lately, you’re missing out! Now arriving at California, Arizona and Texas nurseries: Dave Wilson Nursery’s excellent lineup of Farmers Market Favorites of great tasting, healthy, fruit and nut varieties. They are already potted up and ready to be planted. We’re talking about almonds, blackberries, blueberries, boysenberries, figs, grapes, hops, kiwi, mulberries, olives, pomegranates and much more! For you gardeners in the pacific northwest, mountain and southern states, look for Dave Wilson’s Farmers Market Favorites in January and February. You want more? By the second week in January, you’ll find your favorite Dave Wilson bare root deciduous fruit trees in stock, including my favorite, the plum-apricot cross, the Pluot. Wholesale grower Dave Wilson Nursery has probably the best lineup of great tasting fruit and nut trees of any grower in the U.S. Find out more at their website, DaveWilson dot com. While you’re there, check out all the videos they have on how to plant and grow all their delicious varieties of fruit and nut trees. Plus, at dave wilson dot com, you can find the nursery nearest you that carries Dave Wilson plants. Your harvest to better health begins at Dave Wilson dot com.

Farmer Fred 25:28

Because there are so many demands on your time these days, I like to keep the Garden Basics podcast to under 30 minutes. Still, there is a lot more to tackle on all the garden subjects we bring up on the podcast. So, for that, and a lot more, we’re starting up The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter, on Substack. As the newsletter grows, so will the subject matter. So, yes, it will be a good supplement for the Garden Basics podcast, but there will be a lot more garden related material and probably pictures of my dogs and cats, as well. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Newsletter on Substack. And best of all, it’s free! There’s a link in today’s show notes. Or, just go to substack.com, and do a search for Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. That’s substack.com. The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred newsletter. Did I tell you it’s free? It’s free.

Farmer Fred 26:31

Garden Basics comes out every Tuesday and Friday. It's brought to you by Smart Pots. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. And that includes Apple, Iheart, Stitcher, Spotify, Overcast, Google, Podcast Addict, Cast Box, and Pocket Casts. Thank you for listening, subscribing and leaving comments. We appreciate it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai