Elon Musk and Jeffrey Epstein w/ Ed Niedermeyer

Paris Marx is joined by Ed Niedermeyer to discuss the years-long relationship between Elon Musk and Jeffrey Epstein, and how their relationship sheds light on the murky inner workings of the one percent.

Ed Niedermeyer is the author of Ludicrous: The Unvarnished Story of Tesla Motors and a co-host of the Autonocast.

Tech Won’t Save Us offers a critical perspective on tech, its worldview, and wider society with the goal of inspiring people to demand better tech and a better world. Support the show on Patreon.

The podcast is made in partnership with The Nation. Production is by Kyla Hewson.

Go to surfshark.com/SAVEUS to get 4 extra months of Surfshark VPN, plus there’s a 30-day money-back guarantee or just punch in code SAVEUS at checkout!

Also mentioned in this episode:

• Ed has written two recent pieces about Elon Musk’s relationship with Epstein.
• Here’s more information on Juleanna Glover’s relationship with Epstein.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This world is run by an elite that has this solidarity with each other. Again, their interests may align or or conflict moment to moment, and it doesn't matter. What matters is their power and that they have it and that that doesn't change. And so that to me is really the lesson of the Epstein files. I've seen firsthand, you know, all this reporting and then nothing ever happens. Why is that? Well, now we're finally starting to get a look at sort of the mechanics that explain what's gotten so badly broken in in our society and in our world more broadly and welcome to Tech Won's Save Us, made in partnership with The Nation magazine.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

I'm your host, Pyrus Marks, and this week my guest is Ed Niedermeyer. Now, if you're a regular listener to the show, you will hopefully be familiar with Ed by now because he has been on the show many times to talk about Tesla and Elon Musk, autonomous vehicles, all these other things. And he is back once again. Of course, if you're not familiar with him, he is the author of Ludicrous, The Unvarnished Story of Tesla Motors, and is working on another book at the moment. And he's also a co-host of The Autonicast. But I wanted to have him on this week because obviously Jeffrey Epstein is, you know, very much in the conversation the past couple months because of these Epstein files. And of course, we know that Elon Musk has had some association with Jeffrey Epstein for a while. You know, we have known about the emails where Elon Musk is kind of asking about uh going to Epstein's island and trying to figure out the best time to go do that. But these documents that are out there now reveal a lot of other information about the relationship between these two men, how it developed, and you know, whether much ultimately came of it. And the good thing about talking to Ed about this is that because he knows so much about the history of Tesla and Elon Musk, there are a lot of things that he could kind of glean from the files that were maybe not uh, you know, expressed outright. Things about certain business dealings and relationships between other people that might have had an association with Elon Musk at different times. And so I think that this is a fascinating conversation because we get into not just what motivated Epstein to try to find a relationship with Musk, and yes, it was Epstein that tried to cultivate that relationship, not Musk trying to do so, and certainly how he, you know, one of his routes into that was through Kimball, uh, Elon Musk's brother. But then we also get into talking about the business dealings that maybe came of or, you know, had some relationship to Jeffrey Epstein and the relationship that these men had to one another. So, you know, we talk about attempts to try to get Musk to go into Israel that Epstein tried to facilitate, things around Dubai and the United Arab Emirates, you know, and then just this bigger question as we get closer toward the end of Epstein's life, and he is having, you know, these conversations with Elon Musk and trying to connect people to him. Um, and certainly that gets us to the point where there's this big scandal where Elon Musk tries to take Tesla private and there's talk of Saudi money involved. And based on Ed's reading of the files, it looks like you know Epstein was kind of behind the scenes and had some involvement in that too. And so basically, what I'm trying to say is I think that this is a really insightful conversation for us to figure out more about the relationship between Elon Musk and Jeffrey Epstein and what motivated these men to, you know, basically come together, basically have these conversations and what each of them was getting out of it. I think for now, this is probably going to be the final episode that we do on Jeffrey Epstein and his relationship to these billionaires in the tech industry. Obviously, there's a lot more that we could talk about, especially when you see names like Peter Thiel in the Epstein Files as well. But for me, I don't think that there's value in getting into every, you know, different character who comes up in the Epstein Files. I think that Bill Gates and Elon Musk were some of the two major characters that were important for us to dig into in these conversations. And I think, you know, we're worth having more drawn-out discussions about. But, you know, I'm less convinced about that with some of these other people. But if it gets to a point where I deem that that's necessary, maybe I'll revisit it and maybe we'll have a conversation about some other of those folks as well. So for now, if you do enjoy this conversation, make sure to leave a five-star view on your podcast platform of choice. You can share the show on social media or with any friends or colleagues who you think would learn from it. And if you do want to support the work that goes into making tech won't save us every single week, so we can keep having these critical, in-depth conversations about so many different aspects of the tech industry and the people who lead it and run it, um, and occasionally have some, you know, more uh hopeful conversations, I guess, as we did last week with Gita Jackson, then you can join supporters like Jack in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Anna in Chicago by going to patreon.com slash tech won't save us, where you can become a supporter as well. Thanks so much and enjoy this week's conversation. Ed, welcome back to Tech Won't Save Us.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, thanks for having me. Always good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Absolutely. It's always great to chat and get your insights on Elon Musk and you know everything involving him. And, you know, unfortunately, this week we're talking about one of his more sorted aspects of his career, his life, I guess. People will be familiar with his name being in the Epstein files. Um, and so we obviously want to dig into that today because, you know, there's the kind of general reporting that people have been hearing about the obvious mentions of his name, but you're very familiar with Musk and his history. So getting in there, you can see things that maybe other people aren't connecting the dots on. And that was why I was really eager to talk to you to learn more about this. But before we dig into those specifics, I want to ask you what you make of what we've been learning about the tech industry and you know, kind of broader elite society from the Epstein Files and what has been coming out in them.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

You know, obviously the the focus of the Epstein Files and just the whole situation surrounding it is of course on the victims, right? And and the um the sexual crimes that took place, the exploitation, rightly so, right? Like that that should be the focus. But I think, you know, for those of us who've been investigating uh various aspects of how power and and money work in our world, there's this whole other layer to this, right? Where it's like it's sort of like the I compare it to the ground opening up beneath our feet, and we get this, you know, limited, right? It's and and this is I think really important preface for the whole conversation that we'll be having here. It gives a very limited look inside the sort of nuts and bolts and mechanics of of how our world works at the elite level. Uh unfortunately, it is limited. And so there's gonna be a lot of stuff that that where we're sort of having to stream together sort of pieces here. And for me, you know, I think what's fascinating about it is is as you were sort of alluded to, is that I have all this context of covering Elon Musk. And the number one sort of thing about about all this, you know, it's been I've looked at so many different parts of so many different of his businesses and and and the different, whether it's financial or technological or all these sorts of different things and and exposing all this stuff. And, you know, throughout this now 11 years almost that I've been doing it, the frustrating and and baffling part is that like you keep bringing these facts up, you know, to light, and then things just don't work the way we were sort of raised in school to believe that that that that they were supposed to work, right? You're supposed to the facts come out and the markets respond to them, the regulators respond to them, law enforcement responds to them, the the system whirrs into action with the with the receipt of new information. That's that hasn't been happening. And throughout it, the mystery at so many different points in so many different ways. Why does the stock keep going up? Why, why does, you know, what is going on here? And I think these these files, and again, it's very limited. It doesn't tell us the whole story, unfortunately. It's like almost tantalizing a lot of times how how close we're getting to understanding what's actually going on, but at least it gives us a view, and it's like a first step, in my view, towards understanding, you know, again, for me, what what's really been fascinating is the Elon Musk stuff, but I think it applies to a lot of different things. And so we now have the basis to start to piece together what are the mechanisms that actually make the world work. And when we see them, we understand that it's it's relationships and it's it is sex and power and and cool factor and and very like high school kind of dynamics in a lot of sense, in a lot of ways. The history starts to make more sense because you understand, like, okay, this is and and and above all, in in all this, it's it's the class solidarity of the elite, is the is the piece of this that I think you know really rings rings out. And um, when you start to understand, like, okay, this is how the world works, it's not markets and and a liberal order and and all the again, all the stuff that we're taught in school about how how things are supposed to work, that it is like high school and it is just clicks and and power and mutual interest and and class solidarity among the elite, then all of a sudden things start to make a little bit more sense.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Absolutely. And, you know, as you're saying, like, I believe if I'm correct, we only have like a segment of the Epstein files themselves because there's still a ton of documents that they're not releasing. And then, you know, on top of that is like, okay, how many of these emails got deleted that we don't even have? So as you're saying, like we have, you know, a very small picture. But even then, that picture tells us a whole lot just on its face, but also, like you're saying, when you have the context that you have and digging into it further and seeing that there's a lot of things that's not unwritten, but there are hints to when you pair it with other events going on at the time, you can understand more what is going on there, you know, which is obviously what you you've been doing with relation to Musk, but that other people have been doing with so many of the other people mentioned in these files, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Absolutely. And and yeah, no, it's a really good point. So not only it's a limited window in terms of it's one guy's emails, right? And and the the most interesting ones we don't even know who they're to and from because the because the the other party has redacted. And then on top of it, there is all kinds of evidence that that this is an incomplete survey of that, of even that limited view, right? And so, you know, we'll probably talk about whether or not Musk went to the island and and like it's fascinating because there's all these, you know, allusions to, you know, certainly his desire to go and their relationship is is really interesting. But the smoking guns all seem to be kind of mysteriously not there. And again, you know, in the instance of the island, I think there is maybe some some ambiguity about whether or not he actually did. But again, that's not also the whole point. And I think that's you know, the number one thing I want to get across about the Epstein Files. Again, I don't want to take up anything away from the victims and the justice that they've been denied and and deserve. But this is a really an amazing resource to understand so many other things. And again, it's it's imperfect, but a really big first step because before before these files, we just had to guess, you know, whether we we didn't even have breadcrumbs to sort of follow and try and understand where they led.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Absolutely. And and even then, you know, the way that Epstein utilized these women who he was trafficking, you know, even come up in the story around Musk, but but so many of these other people as well, right? Like it's key, as you were talking about, you know, all the things that you see in the files and the relationships between these powerful people, the procuring and the use of these women, of these girls, really, is a key part of what was connecting Epstein to so many of them.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

It's a currency in that, yeah, that it's just that's exactly right. It was, you know, part of it was, I mean, there was a lot of elements to it in the in the different relationships. Clearly, there was uh an element of mutual compromise that builds trust. There was also, you know, using women to attract people like like Mus, right? So and I think to start to get into their relationship a little bit here, like there's been all this controversy about like, did Elon go to the island? And like, like, was he too uncool to go to the island? And there's like all these different sorts of theories. And so I think it is cool to be able to have some ability to to talk about what that relationship really was. And and what's interesting is you know, in the early years, Epstein was very clearly pursuing Musk. The way to make this all make sense is think about it in terms of high school and like soap operas and stuff, right? Like the first times that Elon Musk's name comes up that again, based on what we have in in these files and in Epstein's emails, is from people like um like Tom Pritzker, who's the the chairman of Hyatt at the time. And and he was like, you know, already a very wealthy guy, right? Like this, I think he was second generation sort of wealth, but but he it was sort of not running right the the business anymore. And he was investing in like green energy stuff. And if you think about the early to the 2010s, you know, that was a cool thing for wealthy people to do. And so Elon, and so he would, you know, he you know, Prince got an email to Epstein where he talks about buying a Tesla. And again, this is you know, this is how Tesla started. It was wealthy people who would go for a test drive in the car, they'd be blown away by the acceleration, the same way that a lot of people buy EVs, you know, ever since. But in addition to putting down money to to get a roadsterm in those early days, they would almost, if you could afford to put down $50,000 or whatever it was to and and wait, you know, sort of an almost unlimited, you know, who knew how long, if ever, they were going to take to deliver. If you had that kind of money, chances are you also wanted to invest in the company. And so it was this dual thing. And this has been, you know, a really important thread in in understanding Tesla as a company. But the point that I'm getting at is that is that wealthy people see, and and Epstein himself, he he there's not a lot of evidence that he cared about EVs or green energy or anything like that. Like he wasn't interested in Elon for that part of the business. I think there's evidence he was interested in the satellites and things like that and and SpaceX. We can get into that. But what was what first brought him to the radar was that just Elon was a rising star. And specifically, he was a rising star among the elite. And it's you know, it's like again, the new kid at high school, you know, or they or the kid who had the glow up over the summer and all of a sudden he goes from being a nobody to like like, oh, this guy's cool, and like everybody, and so and so Epstein, you know, the first references are are are people saying, like, hey, do you know him? Or or or yeah, you know, I've invested in this and I think it's really cool. And so you just see Musk getting onto his radar. And then sort of that first year, and and and I read a blog post that's sort of like call it year one, it's a little bit more than a year, but it's sort of like late 2012 to through the sort of end of 2013. And that's when we start to see in the files that Epstein really starts pursuing Elon. And that's fascinating as well, because that's when you you start to see the women sort of come into it.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Definitely. And and even just to pick up on what you're saying about like Elon Musk is the rising star, he's the cool kid on the block, kind of a thing. You know, he's the new kid in the playground, whatever you want to say. There's also the fact that Epstein's kind of power and influence came in part from the network that he had cultivated, right? And the fact that you have all these people kind of turning to him for connections and investment, you know, there was other reporting on how he was involved in, you know, funding for different tech companies and and making connections there and things like that. And so it's like if you start having all of these wealthy people being like, hey, do you know this guy, Elon Musk? Then if you're someone like Jeffrey Epstein and, you know, your currency is in part relationships, it's also underage girls and things, then it's like, I need to make this connection. I'm probably interested in him too. But I have all these other people who, if I have a connection to Musk and I can use that connection to my advantage, then that further increases my importance to all these people, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah. And and you know, one of the things that again, this is it's been freeing in a way, right? So I've been struggling with this thing for so long. And one of the ways I realized like that the Epstein File has revealed why I've struggled so much to understand what was going on, is that, you know, I approach this as uh from a sort of fundamentals analysis perspective. For me, it was, you know, is the auto industry going all electric, right? Is Tesla a company that that is positioned and has the culture and the and the resources to capitalize on that? And what's fascinating about this is that you know, Epstein he doesn't even talk about it that much about the because he's invested in all these, he's all these different investments. And and he he doesn't talk about it that much. He relies on other people. I think this is why he he he sort of it has helps explain his gloming on to academics and and quote unquote intellectuals, is that he he understood that he maybe wasn't smart enough to really understand this stuff. But when you do see him talking about stuff, there's one email I think it was with with Sultan uh bin Sulaym, who who shows up all over the files. Uh, it may have been with someone else, though. I'm not remembering I don't have it in front of me at the moment. But he talks about about like batteries and about how, and this is you know, in the in the early 2010s, and he talks about how the the cost of batteries is high, which you know is understood at the time, but he thought that like biobat he has this reference of biobatteries, like he his analysis when you read it is just like it's fantasy, it's completely disconnected from reality. He doesn't understand any of the stuff he's investing in, and it doesn't matter because he exemplifies how the world actually works, which is it's all social. If if everyone else who has money believes in something, it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. It doesn't matter if you do the investigation and you see maybe maybe we're overestimating like the potential for EV adoption in the short term, maybe we're wildly overestimating Tesla's ability to build vehicles at scale and to deliver on the mission that they say that that the company's about. None of that matters. It doesn't matter. And and again, it has it hasn't mattered. And that's been like the freeing thing for me is seeing how Epstein operated, seeing how that class operates and and the power that they have to impose reality on the rest of us, it's been freeing for me because it helps me understand how I've how I've both been so right and so wrong about this, which has been, you know, has kept me up a few nights.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Oh, definitely. 100%, right? And even when you're saying that, it's like of anybody, it feels like Elon Musk is one of the best people who like exemplifies what you're talking about, right? The fact that these relationships, the fact that these social dynamics keep these companies elevated, even if the business fundamentals aren't there. It's like, who is it, who who demonstrates that better than someone like Elon Musk and his companies? Of course, now we don't need to worry about the electric cars because the robots are, you know, Elon's just gonna make all those instead, and that's gonna justify all the valuations. It's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

And and the thing, right? That's exactly right. And because the the narrative around the company has changed, the circumstances, the material reality of this company has changed so much, the trajectory, all everything about Tesla and Elon Musk himself as a person has changed. The only thing that hasn't is that the Epstein class sees him as this rainmaker. Simply as a result of them perceiving him that way, it's true. Like if enough of wealthy people see you a certain way and believe you, you know, then then it it comes into being. This is how our world works in in a real way. And Epstein understood, right? Like his power comes from understanding how this world and this class works. And he understood that just in the same way that underage women or the consequence and free environment of a private island, or the um consequence-free environment and and freedom that that a private jet offers, all these things, these are all different kinds of currency. And so what one of the things that's frustrating about these early years, and particularly while throughout it, is that there's just so much about the the intent and what the plan is. What are people, what is what is their theory of mind around all this? That is has always been the hard part with Elon. It's very difficult with Epstein because we only have this stuff. But what does seem to to to float up through all of this is that Epstein saw Musk as this rising star, which in itself is a form of social currency. Other people in that network are asking about him, other people are reflecting to Elon. I sorry, to Epstein that this guy is is cool and doing good things, amazing things, and and building a better future and doing things that they want to be a part of. And in the absence of more granular data, which may still come to light, you know, hopefully, it casts more light into exactly what Epstein wanted because the timing of their like the 2012 or 2013 meeting at SpaceX is interesting. And we don't know what the meeting was about. And I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit because we're skipping through through the use of women to get to what he wants. But what we see is, you know, he's pursuing it because of the social cachet that Elon's stardom creates.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

I want to explore the first year a bit more and and how they get to know one another. But briefly before we do that, what did we know about Elon Musk's relationship with Epstein before these files were released? Like, you know, what was the degree of knowledge that we had about how they were connected?

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Not almost none. So so as the files, one of the very earliest releases, there was like something that the the the House Dems released where it was like a schedule item of like Elon to the island, but it was very ambiguous. And that was that was just in the last year or so. Prior to that, you know, what's interesting is the only thing, and and and we'll get to the funding secured episode of 2018. One of the huge mysteries of all this was that in 2019, when Epstein passed away, all of a sudden the New York Times ran this very baffling story about how this guy went to Epstein's you know townhouse and they had like this on background or off the record conversation about Tesla. And it was and and about about Elon Musk, and that was sort of in the in the context of this whole funding secured craziness that happened at the end of the summer of 2018.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

This is when Elon Musk is saying that Tesla is gonna go private, that he has the money to do it just to the Saudis in specific are going to are going to take him private.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

And I remember that story coming out in 2019 and being like, like, why would Epstein be involved with Elon Musk? Like it was that in 2019, it was it was just incomprehensible. Like like Epstein was not the meme that he is today. So it didn't have that immediate, like, oh my God, like you know, he definitely went to the island kind of thing or anything like that. that it was there was no it was it was impossible to piece it together but it was like it was so weird it a it was weird for the New York Times and we'll get into to their relate you know how they fit into all this too if you want but but the the the New York Times running a piece after a guy died saying we had an off the off the record like background conversation with him was like that's a weird thing to do from a journalistic perspective but then it will also so anyway but this is just one of many mysteries you know throughout all this that that we now can sort of look at and and understand but other than that no one knew anything you know I've been as close I think to as anyone to to Elon Musk's various dirt you know and I it just never came up. And so and and to be perfectly honest like there's so much stuff to investigate with Elon that like I very long time ago got very good at saying like okay that's interesting but like I'm never gonna be able to prove anything there. And so I'm just not gonna bother like you really have to decide what you're gonna what's worth investing your time into and whatnot. And and so so FC never was like it would like would it flitted across the radar once but the idea that there was more there would not have occurred to me until we just got this massive dump and it was literally in real time as I'm going through the emails it's like oh wow like these guys were these guys were in in deep yeah and I would add the only other kind of piece there is a photo of Elon Musk with Gislaine Maxwell at a party that has been circulating for for a number of years, right? That is right. Yes and and there was I'm trying to remember there was some email about kung fu lessons there were there were a couple of these little of these little grains again I it's it's it's one of the things I just had to beat into my head covering Elon Musk is like there's too much. There's always too much and it's just like you really have to optimize for for where you can actually make an impact on something because I've certainly wasted a lot of time digging really into really compelling stuff and just not being able to prove it and that that teaches you be ruthless about what you decide to invest in. And so yeah so there were there were a couple little crumps but nothing to suggest the kind of relationship that we now know. And again we there's a lot we still don't know but we do know that that they were more than just casual acquaintances.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Absolutely and and so let's dig into that right because as you're saying the first piece and you have a series of three pieces that you've written kind of digging into Elon Musk's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and and what you were able to to kind of glean from these files that have been released again a a limited portion of of what actually is out there exists but is not out there right. How does Elon Musk ultimately get connected with Epstein? You were saying that Epstein was was pursuing Musk for a while and you know one of the things that really stood out to me was the important role that the connection with his brother Kimball seemed to play to actually finally make that connection to Musk himself.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

In this world it's it's again it's it's high school it's a social world and what and the thing that's very clear in the first year especially of email is that Elon is he doesn't need Epstein for anything. Like he's not he doesn't understand Epstein is pursuing him and it's not clear exactly what Epstein wants other than then the currency of being close to a someone who his his social group sees as a rising star. But what we know is is how he gets to him right and and the direct approach is it's just not an option Elon is already enough of a rising star that he's you know random people can't just be like hey I'm I'm this rich guy like you know let's be buddies. So so how does he do it right and and again it it's a fascinating insight into who Epstein was and how he operated that he went after Elon Musk brother. Now Kimball Musk is not you know super well known outside of of us you know freaks who who pay way too much attention to the Musk clan and and all of that. You mean not everyone's buying his cookbook and right so so Kimball Musk is ostensibly I mean he's famous for being Elon Musk's brother. That's it like that's you know he ran this like the kitchen which I guess had a couple of restaurants and he positions himself as like a food influencer or you know thought leader or whatever. But like he's kind of a joke you know and and like and like in a lot of ways I say this like he's a he's actually the most like relatable like he's a goofball for the most part he's sort of the most human of the musks in a certain sense. I I feel like if anybody like remembers a clip of Kimball Musk, it's him like basically pushing Elon Musk on stage to admit that they were like illegal immigrants and working in ways that didn't actually were not included under their under under their visas and Elon is like no like you know the illegal immigration A yeah yeah no exactly like that's and Kimball he's like he's fun loving he's on the board or he was he got kicked off the board of a burning man he's a he's a bon vivant and and so Arrow Musk their father talks about them and and he basically it's very funny how he describes him because he's like it's like yeah Elon was like a a nerd Kimball was like the ladies' man like he's like you know handsome and like confident and he had all the things that Elon didn't have in a way the way it's funny was the way their father talks about him Kimball that seems to have the sort of you know je ne sais quoi that that we now somehow Elon has become like the the avatar of this sort of like people want to be around him and whatever. Like so Kimball was like I think it's it's it's helpful to think of him as a as a womanizer and as a kind of a party boy a little bit. Elon comes across in these in these emails as being very you know I mean and this is this is the period where Elon was was building his legend of the guy who is just sort of constantly at the computer you know always answering email he wasn't in like the lab you know he wants people to believe that but even when he's a workaholic he wasn't like you know working on batteries or any of that shit like no he was he was he was emailing a lot and he was he was working a lot and that's really clear in in in the correspondence because he's very curt with with Epson a lot but Kimball is both you know out there in the mix partying I think a bit of a social climber running the kinds of businesses that don't get investment based on you know the it's the people who invest in restaurants like that that is very much a social world. Womanizer he'd already I think been through a divorce at this point and it's it's it's it's this web of connections. Epstein leverages Boris Nikolich who worked for for Bill Gates of course to get and and and he and and we don't know exactly how Nikolich and and Kimball had linked up but they were friends. And it's very clear in the email like when when this starts happening towards the end of in in September of 2012 the Musk brothers are coming to New York and so Epstein sees this as this opportunity to get his hooks into them basically he leverages Nicolich a sort of it looks like he and and Kimball are sort of you know like like to be lads out on the town kind of a thing. Like that's very clearly their dynamic and that provides Epstein the inn because that's Epstein knows how to deal with those guys right like those guys are are Epstein's bread and butter. And so through Nicolich he connects Kimball Musk with a woman Nicolich asks in one of the one of a number of very disgusting and and troubling passages he says prepare this woman for for Kimball it says that Kimball still has an ex or like a soon to be ex sort of in the picture but it's okay we'll sort of handle that prepare this woman for for Kimball and the the phrasing of it is just I mean is she may also like Elon and that's Epstein saying that.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

But it's a it's also shocking like to see the way they communicated with each other such that am I right that Nicolik is the one who's reaching out and being like prepare this woman kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

You're right it is Nicolik yeah yeah and so and so Nicolai clearly understands who Epstein is and how he operates like that is from one email. And maybe it's worth saying this is in 2012 is that right so this is 2012 yeah yeah so this is after Jeffrey Epstein has already been convicted of sex crimes years before right absolutely his conviction was 2008 I think so Nichol is is is clearly he's he's a middleman he understands what he's doing again I I'm just interpreting based on the email I don't know the man I've never spoken to him I don't know what's in his heart but um you know the emails are interpretable and and that's it's very clear that he understands that this that both he and this woman are an intermediary between not just Kimball but I think I well the email doesn't make it clear he understands that Kimball is a way to get get to Elon but I have to imagine that goes without saying uh because why you know I don't think Jeffrey Everton wanted to invest in the kitchen right in Denver. So yeah so it's it's and it's like this woman is a way to get to to and she has to be prepared for Kimball but again it's it's she may like Elon. And so that the implication that right like where this is going is is sort of there right right from the beginning. There they meet up it's hard to parse exactly and and there's always ambiguity you know and it makes sense right people don't send emails well sometimes they'll send emails and say it was good to meet right I had a good meeting with you or whatever and like you know have a safe flight back or whatever. There are there's some of that but there's a number of of points where there's some ambiguity about where exactly the meeting took place. But it's clear that that a meeting took place Epstein I think was trying to get them to his house which is interesting as well because that brings up right there's all the cameras and there's all the the sort of rumors and and speculation about about blackmail and things like that. It sounds like Kimball went probably went to his his home. Again with Elon it's always a little less clear um and I think it's probably because Elon was just less of a guy to send those kinds of emails it his emails are all very short and very curt and you can tell he's got a lot on his plate and again if you know the history of what he was going through at the time he had a hell of a lot on his plate and so it makes perfect sense. Not that he wasn't interested because as we'll get to like he was and and when the moment presents itself he he he becomes very interested. But I think what's in important about that first meeting and then and I think they come back to New York like shortly thereafter this leads up to the first sort of maybe maybe we'll go to the island around the new year. So you know again I think for me the most important thing of that is is that dynamic of Elon comes up on the radar you know of in this world he's becoming a star. Epstein pursues him through a web of social connections using women as a currency and that ultimately you know Elon is and for a while after this continues to be curt with him continues to sort of be a little even dismissive of him but that ultimately the appeal of what Epstein has to offer is something that very clearly connects with Musk.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Just to be clear we don't know exactly when Elon Musk and Jeffrey Epstein meet for the first time but we do know that Jeffrey Epstein makes a trip to SpaceX specifically in 2013.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

That is a confirmed one but we don't know when they meet before that is that right yeah so so there's talk about him coming to the island uh December 2012 January 2013 the email suggests that they struggled to link up the timing was off and that I it it looks like maybe they met for lunch in like St. Bart's or something like that in that area but it doesn't it's not clear that that Elon actually went to the island. And in fact the next year as well Elon by this time was was looking forward to going to the island and and we'll maybe get into maybe why that that interest was had grown over the over the course of that year. But even then Epstein was like I can't make it and so they didn't it seems like they didn't link up then either. So it's not you know I think I think there's been a lot of speculation on on social media and stuff about you know was Elon too uncool to go to to Epstein Island? I don't think that was the thing. We also don't have you know really as you say the definitive proof like yes he was definitely here on this date you know um and Epstein was there whatever so so there is ambiguity about the island piece of this but what's unambiguous is that there's something going on between them right so so there's there's some sort of meeting I think in in the um in the Virgin Islands somewhere over that sort of new year period and then in sort of February so just months later Epstein's assistants are reaching out to Musk's Elon Musk's assistants organizing a meeting at SpaceX between the two of them so the two of them and three girls that he brings with him and am I right and three girls yeah that's exactly right and and so you know that there had to have been something there. I think the missing piece in all of this is what was Epstein's interest. The emails are really shaky on that front um the sort of theory of mind of like what exactly was Epstein trying to get because again I clearly there was the social cachet and he this was going to be a useful person to him in a in a generic sense but like that wasn't enough to to to precipitate a meeting in at SpaceX headquarters. It's one thing for them to meet up on vacation have lunch and who knows what they talked about. But meeting up at SpaceX it's a big deal if only because you know you you referred to these three girls you know they had to send their passports right so there's like a record of their passports at SpaceX visiting in order to comply with you know ITAR I don't know I don't know all the the the details of defense uh legal compliance right that that that exists to prevent you know foreign entities from from infiltrating you know folks who are who are part of the military industrial uh complex but clearly they you know it was this interesting thing where where you don't have a meeting at SpaceX just for you know to to hang out with women like there was clearly some business angle to it and we don't know. And I think this is the part and I didn't even write this in in my year one piece it's too speculative because we don't know. We have no hint of evidence about what the business angle is for that first that that SpaceX meeting what can't be ignored though is the fact that that first quarter of 2013 was what I call the immaculate quarter for Tesla. It's one of the most mis earliest and most mysterious periods in the country uh the company's history because the Model S had been in production since summer but like it was not doing well. The quality sucked they only had a couple of colors it was available in the qual uh the word of mouth was not good. People were sort of saying it was sort of you know kick car it's sort of what what you know one of the things you expect with a small startup car company and the sales weren't doing well they turned that around not just in that first quarter of 2013 but the last month. And I I think I don't have the dates in front of me but the the meeting was in like April and like mysteriously the next month Tesla sold enough Model S's like turned around the sales sold enough to make their first profit uh which then they leveraged into borrowing money, paying off the government loan and this is where Tesla's stock started to go crazy. So again it's too speculative to say like like I really I you know I want to avoid legal problems I want to you know and I want to make it clear that like this is this could very easily just be a coincidence and I have no evidence that there was more. All I know is I don't know what the business relationship was. I don't think that Epstein like the evidence doesn't suggest that Epstein was interested in Tesla as a business was interested in green energy was interested in electric vehicles but he was a guy whose currency was favors. And so you know if Elon was desperate at that moment and needed someone to raise money to buy some cars to get them off Tesla's books and maybe they would buy someone buy back later who knows you know I mean like if there was some sort of stealth bailout that happened there Epstein certainly would have been the kind of guy to do it. So again I'm not alleging anything I just don't know but the the if you know the context that mysterious involvement right at that particular moment is certainly interesting.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Yeah it certainly raises some questions right questions that could potentially be answered if more files were released maybe you know but uh or at least you know hint hint towards something it's hard to say if you listen to this show you already know that Silicon Valley wants to shape the future and also harvest as much of your personal data as possible along the way. That's why I use Surfshark because while we're busy critically examining the tech industry I'd prefer it not to be critically examining me. Surfshark encrypts your internet activity the moment you connect so advertisers, data brokers and the platforms we talk about every week can't quietly track everything you click on. One account works on unlimited devices your phone, laptop, tablet, whatever you're using to read, research or doom scroll you've got 4500 plus servers in over a hundred locations, but the real game changer is CleanWeb. It blocks ads, trackers and malware automatically so you stop feeding the surveillance economy every time you open a browser. It's especially useful on public Wi-Fi, airports, cafes, hotels, basically anywhere your data is floating around like it's up for grabs. And if you've noticed how prices change depending on where you're browsing from Surfshark lets you switch locations instantly to bypass that dynamic pricing and stop getting ripped off. If tech isn't going to save us we can at least protect ourselves from it a little. Go to Surfshark.com slash save us to get four extra months of Surfshark VPN plus there's a 30 day money back guarantee or just punch in code save us at checkout. That's surfshark.com slash save us because if we're going to critique the system we might as well not fund it with our browsing history I feel like you know in this kind of first period there's one other piece that stood out to me that I feel like even links us into the next part of the story that you talk about and this is of course Ehud Barak who is a former Israeli politician. I can't remember the exact month that he's reaching out but like 2013 he's still he's still in government he's Minister of Defense early early in that year is reaching out essentially to try to see if Epstein can arrange you know a connection with Musk to try to get Tesla into Israel and you know he's like significantly rebuffed in that moment by Musk but but that's those kinds of requests are not rebuffed in the same way a few years later. So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Yeah so it's it's also yeah the the context of what was going on with Musk and and Tesla at the various points in the story matter. And again not in a way that that conclusively prove anything but as we are piecing this together it suggests some some some things right so again so so why was it that Elon Musk was willing to meet with at SpaceX with a convicted sex offender six months after meeting him while we can point to the fact that Tesla was in financial crisis and and and Epstein had you know access to sort of shady and socially intertwined money right um maybe that maybe that explains it why was later that year see because once once Tesla got through that first quarter of 2013 they paid off their government loan which they contrasted against you know GM and Ford not doing it. They started talking about the it was the this is when the the solar you know solar superchargers this is exactly when he first started talking about autopilot basically as soon as they paid off that government loan Elon very clearly set out to and I call it going you know he went ludicrous mode right um it's starting in that second quarter of 2013. And you can't even see it on the stock price now because it's so that dynamic that started literally in that second quarter of 2013 has become so huge that you can't see it starting on the stock chart anymore. But if you go back and you look at from IPO until 20 whatever 16 17 18 wherever you can see that is the inflection point. That is where Tesla becomes you know seven years before the term meme stock existed Tesla was becoming a meme stock it was he was creating the the the the profile for that. So when Eh Barak reaches out to Epstein then Epstein reaches out to Musk that is I don't know it's later that in 2013 it's after the stock has started to go crazy it's solved so so Elon has solved his problems in the short term. And it suggests the fact that he rebuffs Epstein it it doesn't rule out the possibility that he owes Epstein a favor but it it may kind of maybe hints that maybe you know Epstein didn't just completely bail him out which is again why I don't want to forward that theory too strongly what's clear is that is that is that Tesla's short term problems are over. The stock is going crazy that's the engine of it's always been the engine of of that whole thing. And and also you know Tesla was struggling to expand right the Model S had only been on on sale for a a year they were still producing it at very small numbers and the original tooling for the Model S was 2000 units a year which is tiny tiny tiny tiny volume. It's funny it was big huge by by roadster standards right there was a big leap but it was still minuscule. And so they were struggling at that time with like as you right you need to open to a global market. You're selling a car to rich people you have to open global markets but you have to be really smart because you don't have a lot of money to invest in the sales and the service locations. And so it's literally right it's like you think of like the the luxury brands have this thing. So that's why you see Paris and New York and and Tokyo and and London you know or Dubai like a couple of little then Dubai being a much later thing. At that time Tesla had very little money to it to invest in new markets and and they were uh supply constrained so they had more demand already by by the the mid to late 2013 than they were able to you know because they were very struggling it was their first time building a car themselves properly uh and so they were really struggling with that.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

So and of course as you reported Elon Musk made a bunch of design decisions that made it even harder to build but you know that's a whole other topic.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Absolutely yeah no so so so the point being is is that Israel it was very easy for him to just blow Israel off. Like they did not actually go into Israel and I don't have the the The number in front of me. I think it was in the 2020s. Okay. The Israeli car market is tiny, it's notoriously corrupt. Like Mazda's the best-selling car. I'm not again, I feel like I have a lawyer sitting on my shoulder this whole episode. I'm not accusing Mazda or the Israeli automotive authorities of corrupt. I'm just reflecting what Israelis have told me about how their car market worked and the fact that their car market looks super different than every other car market in the world, which tends to suggest or imply that something other than the same market dynamics that are driving those markets are at play in Israel. So the point being is that Tesla didn't go there until like much later. I think after the Model 3 came out, which makes sense because it's just not a market it makes sense for them to invest in. So Musk rebuffs that. And then later that year, you know, it's it looks like their relationship is sort of getting a little rocky again. And again, I, you know, who knows what exactly is going on behind the scenes. But Epstein reaches out again, and he does this a lot where he just emails people and and he just sort of says, you know, when do you come to New York? When do you come to New York? Hey, buddy, kind of stuff. It's the files are full of this. And it's again, it's an insight into how the world works. People love that, right? People love to feel like someone who's wealthy and powerful cares about them. It's a great way to manipulate people. I say this as, you know, it's happened, people have tried this on me, you know, like when you're a blogger and some CEO emails you, you're like, you know, and it's like it's a powerful tool. Epstein reaches out later in in 2013 and says, hey, the general, the UN General Assembly is meeting in New York. There's gonna be a lot of interesting people at the place. You're gonna come hang out. And I think for you know, most people in that clique, you know, in that world, that's very appealing, compelling thing. Elon responds very currently, and this like exchange, I think, encapsulates their relationship really well. Elon responds and is like just super bitchy with him. He's just like, I'm running, you know, and you can tell it's it's the he is now starting to believe by by late 2013, he's getting high on his own supply. He's believing his own press. And this machine that has now gone way off the rails is really starting to build up a head of steam. And he's like, I'm running two very important companies. I'm very critical to their success. I can't just, well, he's like, this just doesn't, you know, going off to New York and hanging out with a bunch of diplomats just doesn't seem like, you know, a good use of my time. And Epstein, you know, is clearly been putting a lot of effort, it's been a year of cultivating this relationship and and and quite successfully. Uh, and he sees it, I think, slipping away. And he goes back to, I think, the baseline of like, okay, what how do I make this work? What does this, what do I have that this guy wants? Because it's not diplomats in the the UN General Assembly, right? It's women. He said, he and he says, he's like, what do you think? I'm a arsler. No one there is gonna be under 25 or over 25, and everyone will be super cute. And again, Elon doesn't respond to this, but it's very telling to me that you know, Epstein is trying to understand him. He's trying to figure out what makes this guy tick. And those are the sort of the two things, the two major currencies that Epstein trades in. It's status and prestige, which is which is symbolized by the UN General Assembly to be able to rub elbows with the people who who run the world, uh, at least in a you know, formalized, you know, sort of performance of running the world, or it's sex. Elon is not, Elon's sort of a new class of of elite that is coming in, and and Epstein is is figuring out which of these currencies works with him. And it's not the status thing, it's the sex thing. By the end of that that year, Elon is like, okay, I'm ready for a vacation. And again, if you look at Tesla was just doing better at the end of 2013 than it was at the end of 2012. And and that's where the infamous Elon, like, you know, went to the big party on the island. Or that actually that may have been the the year earlier. But he's but e by by the end of 2013, Elon is just unambiguously, I really want to go hang out on your island.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

And unfortunately, we don't have emails to confirm whether that actually happened or not. But you know, you mentioned E. Musk kind of blowing off this potential, you know, relationship to Israel. But of course, you write that several years later, Sultan bin Suleim, the CEO of Dubai Worldport, uh, is kind of reaching out to Epstein, making a similar request, right, to get Tesla into uh into Dubai, uh, to make to get that all set up. And by 2017, this is this is kind of bearing fruit. So, what do we make of that relationship and why Musk seems much more open to you know pursuing this kind of relationship in this moment versus uh when the Israelis reached out?

SPEAKER_01 48:52

There's sort of the the cyclical nature of Tesla's business. You know, again, by by you know, 2012 was was an almost going bankrupt year. 2013 was you know, solve that, you know, and then you're doing good sort of into 2014. By 2015, things are getting challenging again, right? You've had to make these big investments in growth. Again, the quality problems are persisting. You know, the Model S, you know, is doing okay, but um, the Model X is is really struggling to get to market when uh Ben Suleim's interest in Tesla too, it starts with with the Model X. He he just wants to get a Model X. And and Ben Suleim and Epsy were very close and had been quite for quite some time. You know, the background there is really Dubai had a series of distressed debt moments as well. And and again, like this is this hints at maybe why Elon what the business relationship was, is that when when you are a profligate overspender, as both Elon and and the guy who ran to Dubai Port's world at different scales, totally different scales at this time, of course, but they both sort of were beyond their means in a corporate sense, right? They were not keeping that eagle eye on the bottom line, they were very, you know, boom bust sort of things. And when when these sorts of guys run into trouble, Epstein is just one of the people they call. And again, this is you know, talking about like how is it that companies that don't have good business models, you know, can just stay in business and and and their valuations continue to grow, understanding that there are guys like Epstein out there that connect people with various sources of capital and that they have all these relationships that are not necessarily just built on the bottom line, right? And building successful businesses. It's not. That's that's almost secondary or tertiary, even in a lot of these cases. Binsoliam had had they had this long relationship with with Epstein. You know, he he would like email Epstein asking him to find apartments in New York. He treated him like a like a concierge a lot, and and Epstein was very gracious. You know, again, this is how these relationships work. You take those kind of undignified moments in stride, you help out the powerful guy, and then when it's your turn, you get something out of them. There's a there's a mysterious moment where uh, you know, Epstein is asked by Ben Salayam to get about a about a Model X. It's very confusing about where Epstein's getting his information about the availability of the Model X. Um, there's a couple of different, like the way he basically says, we'll find out November 15th. And it's possible that like there was a typo, and because obviously his emails are full of typos, and it's possible by November 5th when when Tesla, like that's the most sort of innocuous explanation, is that Tesla was releasing information on the 5th. But even then, it came out earlier. The other thing was like November, it could be November 15, which is actually very close to when the Model X ended up coming to market. And what's fascinating is that again, you have to contrast what's going on behind the scenes with what's going on out in public. At this exact moment, Adam Jonas of Morgan Stanley, who is basically Elon's, this is my personal characterization, basically Elon Musk like, you know, chief stock pumper for many years. As this request for information is happening, he is starting to drip feed out ahead of that earnings release the fact that the Model X is delayed and then it won't come out until Q3 of 2015. So anyway, it's it's it's again, there's there's hints that maybe Epstein is actually getting even like non-public, material non-public information from inside Tesla. There are interpretations where that's not the case. It's it's sort of hard to tell. But it's the start of this of this interest. And again, this is why Epstein was positioned himself to have a relationship with Tesla, is because he knew, you know, eventually people who are less plugged in than Tom Pritzker, but equally, if not more wealthy, were gonna find out about this Tesla thing and want in on it. And and Binsol AM sort of exemplifies that.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah, because I think he's reaching out, like specifically looking for three cars, right? For him, his wife, and his son or something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yes. And so that sort of resolves ambiguously because the model monologue isn't ready. And then going into 2014, yeah, 2015, uh, the you get a version of the of the same request that Aud Barack uh had forwarded through through Epstein, which is come to this time come to Dubai. Now, I think the big difference, other than so, so there's the market is is different. It's a much more established luxury car market than uh Israel. You know, Dubai has has become one of those Paris, New York, London sort of fashion tour kind of luxury destination type of places by this point as well. But the other, there's this other subtext going on here too, which is notably absent from the Ehud Barak once you once you see the contrast, which is he basically straight up says, you don't have to bribe anyone. I will make sure that you can get in to Dubai. I will put you on, I'm forgetting the name, it's the main commercial strip in in Dubai. There's a former Porsche dealership, actually. As is one of the interesting things, there was Porsche had built a brand new location in Dubai, and their old place needed a tenant. That's the other subtext to this. You know, the pitch was we'll basically we'll roll out the red carpet. Like this is a it's a luxury market. I will get you in there. I'm I'm the only guy who can get you in without, and this is the other crucial thing, without a partner. You know, a lot of car markets, whether so on a the big scale of this is China. And again, Tesla was the first foreign automaker to enter into China without a without a local partner. This is a number one priority for Elon. He does not want enforced partners, he will just not go to your country. And so that was also the other thing was it was like, you know, you don't have to, and again, he said it all as explicitly as you can put it in an email. You don't have to bribe me or anyone else. I will make sure to do it. I'll put you on the commercial strip and we will help you out. And sure enough, the UAE becomes not just a source of sales, right? They they get that former Porsche dealership, they get the big building. Elon comes there, he talks about how the Burj Khalifa is this amazing tribute to humanity, kind of in the same way that the the pyramids were, I guess, uh, and other sort of slave labor-built monuments. And then the big thing is that the government buys a lot of cars. And and what's amazing is that you know, Tesla was just in the very earliest days of even hyping the self-driving and autopilot thing at this point. And there's what's at the Dubai Future Foundation makes this incredible video. It was like AI slot before AI Slop. It was, it was just really bad. They took, it was literally, they took a Tesla Model S and they made this video that shows, you know, uh an Emirati man, of course, getting in the backseat. And it's got this whole user interface that's like projected onto the window, and it's fully driverless, but it's a Tesla. And it's like taking Teslas, what Tesla at that time was still just sort of hinting at. Like it was, it was the self-driving pitch was just in its infancy, and they're taking it and turbocharging it, you know. And so they're they're essentially they're doing you know, government-funded advertising. The local taxi uh organization is buying, you know, Model S's, which is a hard sell for a taxi company. Well, again, with the prospect, and they're hyping it as, you know, in Dubai you're gonna show. And by the way, they're still struggling to put this together. Now they got the Chinese companies in there to try, because they they had this future vision that like 30% of their rides would be autonomous by 3030 or whatever. I'm sorry, by 2030. And they thought Tesla was gonna, or or they were willing to buy into the to the vision of Tesla was gonna provide that. So I think it was a it was a lot of things that made that work. One was this, the, the sort of timing of of where Tesla was. It was Dubai is a more appealing thing. It was the you don't have to bribe anyone, it was the government is gonna support you. But there was one other element as well, which is that apparently Epstein pitched him in person. This was not just sort of an email saying, hey, Ehud asked me to ask you, you know, what do you think? kind of a thing. He was in person, as far as we can tell. It looks very again, we don't have, you know, the timestamp photos and you know, but it looks pretty clear. Uh uh Epstein says, I'm gonna meet with Elon today. Remind me, get give me more detail on that pitch you mentioned. And Binsulayam sends it and then and then immediately like asks, well, how did it go? How did it go? How did it go? The other thing, by the way, too, that that Dubai got out of all this was it really was right when they were turbocharging their world government symposium or whatever they call it. And Elon Musk came for that. Now they already had like big names. I will, you know, it's not like he made it, but it's this mutualistic exchange that we see with Elon again and again, which is you treat him like he's a big deal. He treats you like you're on the cutting edge of the future. And it's a circle jerk that has sort of taken over our world.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Yeah, everyone kind of wins in the sense that they get what they what they want out of a right. You know, the Emiratis want the cars.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Except for the self-driving taxis, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Of course, of course, yeah. Well, you know, but at least they get the boost, you know, they have the Teslas, you know, they get to participate in the PR, they get to like, you know, bask in the aura of Elon Musk. Uh, you know, and he again gets gets pumped up in in this way. You know, we're talking about the Emiratis here, but obviously, you know, as you were talking about earlier, the Saudis and Musk, there's also a very important relationship there that really you know is is most emblematic in 2018, as you were saying, when Elon Musk announces that he's going to take Tesla private, that he has secured the Saudi money to do it. And I know that there is stuff in the Epstein files that you're after finding that that relates to that as well. So, what is that telling us about what are these Epstein files further revealing about what is going on in 2018 around Elon Musk's uh supposed intentions uh to take Tesla private in that moment?

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Yeah, so Epstein claimed in his emails to have links to the Saudi, the King of Saudi Arabia, going back to 2011 was the earliest I found. So quite early as far as the files are concerned. So clearly, and and I, you know, I don't really know where that relationship started, where it comes from like, you know, um, there's emails from uh French diplomat talking about, you know, the harem that the Saudi king has. So there's there's you know implications of of you know that that maybe the sexual thing is a a factor in that. We d I don't know. It's it's there's so little about about the origins of that relationship that I can't even begin to speculate really. The relationship with the Saudis between between um Epstein and the Saudis seems to intensify based on my reading of the files, sort of around that 14, 15, 16, sort of culminating in a trip that he takes to Saudi Arabia, where apparently uh Mohammed bin Salman meets him on the airplane, uh meets him at the on the tarmac rather when his airplane lands. That's you know pretty pretty significant. This is around the time that Mohammed bin Salman also sort of solidifies his position as the, you know, as the as the power in Saudi Arabia where he locks family members up. Epstein was was certainly interested in that as that was going on. He was very interested in the the Saudi Aramco IPO. He had a theory that the by going public, that it could create an exposure, um, a sort of an attack surface that would create vulnerabilities for the Saudi state. So he's clearly advising them. And more importantly, by by you know, certainly by 2017, 18, people are emailing him and saying and asking him about his Saudi friends. And these are well connected, you know, Landa Thomas at the uh junior at the New York Times and Juliana Glover, who a lot of people don't know, but she's she sort of figures in in all this. Juliana Glover is someone that I I got the pleasure of figuring out who she was through my coverage of Tesla. She was is an amend is an immensely powerful woman uh in the East Coast establishment. She was uh involved in the um Bush administration. She so she, I think, was sort of a chain y person, but she's positioned herself very much as a centrist in in DC. She's very sort of equally at home, sort of with either party. And Michael Wolfe connects her with Elon. I'm sorry, connects her with, she was already connected with Elon, connects her with Epstein because they were both sort of kind of anti-Trump a little bit in the first Trump administration. So, so you know, there's and there's sort of like, oh, he's going off the rails. And and she was writing about how there needs to be a third, a third-party candidate, which is again classic belt beltway, sort of, you know, oh, well, we just need, you know, someone who's sensible in charge, and you know, uh, and and Epstein, of course, is like, oh, you're so smart. You're so smart. When Michael Wolfe introduces him, so and so Epstein is basically talking to Michael Wolfe, and and Michael Wolfe is the author of Fire and Fury or whatever it is, the book about the Trump administration, very and fascinating character in his own right, is the author. But basically, Epstein is saying, I need help with PR. And Michael Wolf says, Well, this woman, Juliana Glover, he says multiple times, she's wholly owned by Elon. Elon has bought her out. And so she can't take other work, but like, you guys will get along. And sure enough, they do. And they're sort of talking about this sort of third-party kind of anti-Trump stuff a little bit. But then all of a sudden, the funding secured thing blows up. And all of a sudden, she's in his email saying, in case you're uh advising certain parties that may or not be involved in what's going on, like I can help you sort of message, you know, like the potential of Tesla. So, you know, really clearly leading through the reading through the lines, and and again, I, you know, what we know about, you know, the Saudi Arabia. So so Mohammed bin Salman had been, you know, clearly was interested in, and what we've seen with the rise of Mohammed bin Salman is this interest in Saudi Arabia from Saudi Arabia in the tech sector. And we've had, you know, these big state visits and meeting all the the Titans, and we've had huge investments, and clearly, you know, and and so I think Well, there was that big controversial visit where he came over and like spent so much time visiting all these CEOs in Silicon Valley and and all that kind of stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

This was before the kind of murder of uh Jamal Khashoji, which turned them off for a bit, but now they're all back in the Saudi uh sphere again.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Yeah. Well, and and you you think about the sort of heel turn that that Silicon Valley has really sort of leaned into so heavily, and it makes sense that a lot of that comes from, you know, this huge influx of wealth from the Gulf states, you know, and that then they're targeting that as a source of investment. It was also, of course, you know, in the ZERP era, it was hard to get yield elsewhere, uh except outside of Silicon Valley. So so they weren't the only ones. But um, but Epstein seems to have been at the forefront of that trend of the Gulf states getting into and and and meeting up with the tech sector. So I don't know if Epstein personally brokered the Saudi meeting about because the Saudis did meet with Musk that summer of 2018, and there was talk of an investment, but there was not the funding was not secure, right? We know the funding was not secured, and Elon just sort of popped off about it. As there's this like multi-day scandal, Epstein makes it clear, like he blows off other people who's dealing with crypto stuff at the same time, and he's like, I can't deal with this right now. I'm like fully engaged in in this Elon thing. It sounds, it seems like both so he and Juliana are ostensibly, Julian Glover, ostensibly on opposite sides of this deal. He's advising the Saudis, she's advising Elon, or representing Elon. And yet they're collaborating. And they're collaborating on, among other things, manipulating the New York Times. And that's the the sort of the number one thing that that comes out from for me in this period is they are talking, they are both getting information in and out of the New York Times. They are from their sources who work at the Times, they're learning about stories before they before they come out. And then they are collaborating to manipulate those stories and manipulate the coverage. When you know that, right? And then then it's like, okay, so now it makes sense that that, you know, this guy, and and I can't remember exactly which reporter it was who um, I think it was James, it was James Stewart, who goes to uh Epstein's townhouse and and records uh an interview with him, or not records a has an interview with him, and then doesn't write about it until the guy dies a year later. Like all of a sudden, this this makes a little more sense. What does it there's a lot that still doesn't make sense though? So so we can see how they how they manipulated the the situation, but like we still don't really understand why Elon sort of announced this in the first place. Like whether whether there was there was clearly something else going on, like the deal didn't exist and he was trying to will it into being. Fascinatingly, Epstein is has a horror of drug use. And at this time, he's like, he's like, your boy is like smoking weed on Joe Rogan, right? That was also happening at this time. And he's like, this is, you know, and his employees were emailing him about it and being like, this is bonkers. Like every time everyone in Epstein's little world was like, oh my God, drug people are bad. Keep them away from us. Like they're they do, they're they're those people. We're, you know, one of us means, you know, you're not a drugie, you're you're into the stuff that we're into. You know, they they the the relationship between him and and Glover is really fascinating because again, like the number one thing that comes through is they're on opposite sides of the deal, but they're also both part of the same class. They both have access to the New York Times, they both are able to manipulate it, they both and they're they're they're working together, I think, to sort of uh diffuse, you know, and by the way, she of course is like, oh, Elon does barely even drinks. She's trying to manipulate him too. So they're they're both collaborating and many people anyway. It's it's it's one of those things where it's like you realize these people are both in this class, they both wield immense power. And even though they're on opposite sides of this deal, this is just one deal. And like they all have other angles and other interests, and and this moment will come and it will go, and they will still be there. And they will continue to, and again, in the moment, whether they're trying to spin each other or collaborating to spin the times or whatever else it is that they're doing, there's this interplay of conflict, but but that is smothered by again the the class solidarity that that happens in this world.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

Hearing everything that you're talking about, that like obviously there's the whole piece with Elon Musk and you know, with the deal with the Saudis, and again, how Epstein is involved in this very key moment in, you know, kind of like the history of Elon Musk's business empire, certainly one that we have talked about many times, but you know, this kind of wrinkle of it was not something that we were aware of, you know, again, until these files were released. But the other piece that really stands out to me again is this relationship to the media and to the New York Times and kind of the influence and the passing of information that is there that also I would say presents some big red flags, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Yeah. So and and the part where I have some personal experience with this, you know, is fascinating. You know, I was at around this time frame, actually a little before this, I was contributing regularly to Bloomberg. It was called Bloomberg View at the time, now Bloomberg Opinion. And, you know, I was starting to write more and more about Tesla. There was one instance specifically, and it was in 2016, so it was before this, but after Juliana Glover, this is how I found out who she was I wrote about the uh painted black, basically Tesla doing this fake uh self-driving video, and this is when they started doing you know full self-driving. I write this draft about it, and I'm very skeptical, critical, and we're in edits, and then all of a sudden, my editor gets this lit laundry list of corrections from Juliana Glover. And to be perfectly honest, like they're they're almost all, in fact, they were all no, there was one, there was one where I'd said a few, there'd been a few deaths because we knew about two, we had two proven deaths, and then there was the Gao Yanning uh in until we knew Josh Brown and I think it was not Jeremy Banner somewhere else. Anyway, the point is I I could prove two and I suspected a third, and it was it was all but but obvious that there was a third, but okay, so we'll say two instead of a few. That was the one correction that was like fine, yes, legitimate, one word. And then there was this laundry list of others, most of which were just sort of we dismissed out of hand, and some of which actually went in. And I could show you this piece today. For example, like she says that the drive that they did started at Tesla's factory, which is in Fremont, and ends up at their headquarters in Palo Alto. Well, how does it cross the Bay? It doesn't cross the Bay. Like I grew up in the Bay Area, like I'm sorry, this is like the easy, most easily disproven and stupid correction, but it's still in that piece 11 years later, you know, or 10 years, almost 10 years later, it's still in that piece. And this is the power of Juliana Clever. And then I went on Bloomberg TV in San Francisco. It's my first time doing it in person, you know, at the Bloomberg studio in San Francisco. I was so excited for it. And Emily Chang is there, who's great, by the way. And and you we're we're literally five minutes to going on air. And Emily Chang gets his phone call. She's like, okay, mm-mm, gets off the phone and she looks at me and she's like, I am so sorry about this. Like, this doesn't happen. That was my boss's boss or my boss's boss's boss, something like that. It wasn't just her boss, it was someone way up. And she's like, you know, we've had the word has come down, and I have to ask you about corrections that were made to your piece. And I'm like, I'm sitting here, I'm like, wait a second. This is Bloomberg TV asking about one word, one word correction after a bunch was dismissed out of hand in in your own outlet. It was a Bloomberg, you published the thing, and now I'm on TV to promote it on your TV channel. And anyway, this was like this was my first hint at the kind of power that is for sale in this country and that Elon had bought. And and we now know from Michael Wolfe, he just he bought her out. Like I shudder to think what her annual rate is to not work for anyone else. It's got to be a lot of money. And boy, does she get results. Like, I again I saw it firsthand. And so to see her and Epstein collaborating, and then just to see all the things that he has his fingers in, this world is run by an elite that has this solidarity with each other. Again, their interests may align or or conflict moment to moment, and it doesn't matter. What matters is their power and that they have it and that that doesn't change. And so that to me is is really the the lesson of the Epstein files. And I've seen it firsthand, you know, all this reporting and then nothing ever happens. Why is that? Well, now we're finally starting to get a look at at sort of the mechanics that explain what's gotten so badly broken in in our society and our world more broadly.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Totally. And and Elon Musk is just one of those, right? You know, you're talking about your experience with regard to Elon Musk and reporting on Elon Musk. But when you touch so many of these other billionaires, you find that they have their own PR people and fixers and lawyers who are doing the same sort of thing to try to make sure that negative coverage of them and their businesses are staying out of the headlines, you know, are not being reported on, are being, as you say, corrected so that, you know, it it is not as critical. It better reflects their narrative, that sort of a thing, to try to take uh, you know, the potential pain of this out of it. But I just want to pick up on, you know, to kind of close off our interview. The moment we're talking about here is about a year before Jeffrey Epstein is arrested and then ultimately goes on to supposedly kill himself. I know there are still questions about that, uh, you know, what ultimately happens there. But like this is already getting close to the end of his life, and he still has this, you know, very close involvement with Elon Musk and his empire. And so, you know, as we wrap this up, I wonder in your mind, you know, again, based on the limited information that we have, what do these revelations tell you, big picture, about the relationship between Epstein and Musk and how that all operated?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

Yeah. So so I think it it there's a couple of things. One, one is just that, you know, Epstein represented this point of entry, this nexus of money and power. If you could get close to him, when things got sketchy, and again, I'm not just talking about Elon, you know, uh, or or when you wanted something, he would he he was a fixer. He was a fixer, and the realities of the business didn't matter. You look at at how he did business, and he was, you know, he would ask for these very sketchy characterizations of financial deals that he was being asked to participate in, had very loose grasp of of the fundamentals of of businesses that he was involved in, and everything was uh was sort of social. And I think, right, that that's understanding that we don't live in, again, the world that that we were taught as as school children to believe, you know, that that there's a system and that it works in systematic ways. Well, there is a system, but it doesn't work in systematic ways, it's a social system. That's the number one, but the number two of it, and I think this is something that is going to bear a lot more reporting, and I think it it it helps explain not just Elon Musk, but a lot of the things that are happening, I think, in our world, our politics right now, especially as we go to war uh in the Middle East, is the role of Gulf Oil, to be perfectly blunt, and a lot of things. And I think you can sort of step back and look at some high-level things, and and again, maybe you know, we need more information to flesh a lot of this out. But you know, you see the rise of the idea of the network state, and you see, you know, that is that is what that's what Dubai is, is a literature network, right? And it's it's sort of the the template for what a lot of people are trying to create from Silicon Valley. And you just see a general attitude where you know, tech companies act more like Gulf states than they do sort of American companies. For better for us, I don't want to, I don't want to romanticize American business culture because obviously there's a lot wrong there going way back. But, you know, and we see this in our politics too. And even in, you know, I made a joke on Blue Sky about P about how you can't get a PR job anymore because like when someone reports negative news about the company, like the response is just like the CEO like puts out a tweet that's like, yeah, we did it, and it's part of some bizarre, you know, like ideological thing, right? Like there's no denying anymore. It's like like people, the the masks have are off. And how that's happened in both business and technology and then in our politics, like I don't want to, I don't, I also don't want to say, like, oh, it's all these foreigners and their and their money, but like we know that that oil and oil money are one of the foundations of our world and that that and it creates a lot of power, and that power is wielded by people who have what I consider to be very objectionable values. And I see them seducing the power in our country towards those values because those power, those values privilege power and the naked use of power against the less powerful and and justifies it in any and all circumstances. And so I see where our country across again, business and politics and everything else is drifting, we're drifting towards a Dubai type world of intense wealth and the spectacle of wealth and technology that that is built on slavery and exploitation. And that feels like the world where we're we're headed to. And I think that I think that as we get more information, I hope we do, and and I think I think if nothing else, I hope the Epstein Files inspires hackers to not, you know, to that this information is power. We need to see more about what's happening into uh happening in in this. But I think Epstein was really the the midwife in a lot of ways, or certainly a facilitator of this transition from you know letting loose the last vestiges of I think what are sort of reasonably good American values, which again, I don't want to romanticize American history, but but this this noticeable turn towards things that that that look even worse, right? For those of us who've been critical of America's past, that that the future looks even worse. And I see Epstein sort of at the center of brokering the relationship between certainly technology and that sort of petrodollar power. So um so I think you know, on that basis, he is a a linchpin in understanding this very mysterious, in a lot of ways, the mechanics of it don't make I think a lot of people find themselves baffled by this turn that's taking place. And I think the Epstein files hold a lot of answers as to why this is all happening. And they suggest that we need to do a lot more digging and we need to uh expose a lot more emails from a lot more people because what's happening is really important and you know, we haven't been asked to vote on it or or even have a proper discourse about it because we don't have the facts. And so hopefully this is step one in in uh you know, at least trying to do some of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

Yeah, very well said. You know, we need to be having that discussion. You know, we need to get more of these files, whether that's through hacking or through leaking, you know, someone can uh put them out there because they do exist. But then the other piece, of course, you know, picking up on what you say, is okay, we know this much about Jeffrey Epstein, you know, still a very limited amount, but how many more Jeffrey Epsteins are out there trying to do a similar sort of thing as well, right? You know, there's a lot of, I think, accountability that is really needed for what is happening here. And unfortunately, we're not seeing nearly enough of that, um, certainly in the United States, but but in many other places as well. Ed, it is always great to speak to you, to get your insights, even when it's terrible topics like this one. But we need to know what is going on and how this world actually works and how these powerful figures are are connected through these networks that are just terrible. Um, so I appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Absolutely, it's a pleasure as always.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

Ed Niedermeyer is the author of Ludacris and a co-host of the Autonicast. Tech Won's Save Us is made in partnership with the Nation magazine and is hosted by me, Paris Marks. Production is by Kyla Hewson. Tech Won't Save Us relies on the support of listeners like you to keep providing critical perspectives on the tech industry. You can join hundreds of other supporters by going to patreon.com slash tech won't save us and making a pledge of your own. Thanks for listening and make sure to come back next week.