In this episode, SYP Ireland's Elizabeth Goldrick had the pleasure of speaking with Gráinne O’Toole and Nidhi Zak of Irish independent press, Skein Press. Established in 2017, Skein Press is a writer-centred publishing house that supports writers traditionally underrepresented in Irish literature by publishing beautiful, thought-provoking books. Skein are also committed to seeing greater diversity in the in-house team. They provide opportunities that encourage those traditionally excluded from publishing, perhaps due to class or education, to enter into careers as publishers, editors and marketing managers. Skein are also committed to campaigning for industry wide change: they want to see fairer, more sustainable wages across the board that will allow people to enter into and remain in publishing careers.
The conversation, held in a beautiful park in the centre of Dublin, was lively and thought-provoking and we hope it will be much enjoyed by all who listen.
Skeine Press: https://skeinpress.com/
Skeine Press on Twitter: @SkeinPress
Play it Forward: https://skeinpress.com/play-it-forward-fellowship/
Welcome to this episode of Inside publishing the series where we interview industry experts on everything publishing. In this episode, we're talking to Irish publishing house scheme press, a writer centred press supporting authors traditionally underrepresented in Irish literature, their writing, as well as their commitment campaign for industry wide change. And just some of the areas we'll be exploring in this lively and thought provoking episode brought to you by SVP Island. I'm Elizabeth and I am the SDLP. Ireland chair. This is the first year that the SI P have been in Ireland. And so part of our aim is to get to know the various publishing houses in Ireland. And like what makes publishing houses in Ireland different and unique. And so, a good place to start is by meeting publishers. So today I am with Granja to Nidhi, Zach from scheme press, and I would quite likely undersell you both. So can I ask you to introduce yourself, who you are as people and then who you are as an organisation? My name is Nikki, I'm an editor with scheme. And I started skiing earlier this year in January. Working with Gordon falooda on the books that are being published this year, next year. New CV 2022 Hi, I'm Granja working scheme press with fanola Nidhi. We set up scheme press 2018. It was a collaboration between writers and publishers to see how we could start publishing books that we weren't seeing in the Irish literary scene. So books from writers who we felt were underrepresented in literature and watched the stories they wanted to tell. So we focused in on that. And so far, we've published three books. And we are supporting the player forward fellowship with steam fly that Nidhi is heading up. And that's a whole career pathway for writers from underrepresented backgrounds who haven't had the opportunity before, to access writing and networks and publishing and editorial and mentorship. So maybe we can talk more about that. So yeah, so it's a very exciting time. And we're very new press. Are you Ireland's youngest press. At least one of the at least one Yeah, yeah, probably was. And can I ask? So it's very interesting that you said the correct. Have you? Had you worked a long time in publishing beforehand? Or what is your background? Yeah. My background is community work and human rights. But I always had an interest in reading and writing. And I did create fighting over the years. So I love writing and editing. I suppose in my other life, having met a lot of writers and from different communities often wondered how, why we weren't seeing the work. Yeah, in print. Yeah, you're hearing stories, but not seeing, not seeing it. Seeing Ireland represented, as it should be culturally, in our landscape seemed very monocultural. To me. Yeah, seemed like the diversity and enrichment of people and ideas was coming through the wage shot. So that suppose that was the current of the idea for me. And luckily for Nullah, or our other colleague, has publishing experience and worked for many years in Krishna Fein Irish language publishing, which is very interesting in and of itself, because it's also marginalised in some ways or not to the main, certainly, conserving something or, Yes, bring us into modern. And was there any, like particular moment that made you think, Okay, we have to establish our press. Now? Was there a sudden moment? Or did it just make sense? I think key to the establishment scheme press was Mulatu. Work meant to be chokecherry. When we read her stories, we said, I had normal data for years, and she was sending we were working together on stories, and we were sharing stories. And I thought when I read her stories, how come her work isn't such a clever, talented short story writer for a start. And I just was wondering why we were in Siena published and then with Fula. And Malachi, we had this conversation about doing a very short run on the stories that we that were just finished and phenomenal stories of the collection is it's just three stories with an essay from law to at the beginning. So we just saw these should be out there there. They'll make such a contribution to literature and Ireland. So that was the basis and start From what what happened was the response to that book was so phenomenal, and that we had to organise the press more formally. Then we decided, well, look, and we also in the background knew on Dr. Doom who was writing these beautiful stories, and we thought, well, if we do one more thing, his work needs to be published. And then the press evolved really from Asia. And so there's always one. Yeah, so it kind of evolved like that, but very much a writer centred press, I mean, you know, trying to support writers to develop what their vision is, and what their purpose is, is key to what we want to do and what we want to preserve going forward. So we very much make decisions, but writers at the heart of it, and what they'd like to see and create, and I think, and then for us, we we can we can fit in around that, because we're not constrained because we're very new, you know, working from some institutional framework that your deliberations in the sense that you almost don't have, you have set goals, but they're there to celebrate someone else's voice rather than Yeah, that might lead us nicely, actually, to the play it forward fellowships. Will you tell us more about those? Well, initially, in 2019, Skene, had a session with Galway 2020, which was sort of an Information Exchange Workshop between writers from different backgrounds who hadn't been represented in Irish literature. And the motivation behind it was to understand what the barriers might be for these writers and what we could do in terms of providing them with resources, or helping them along their way to becoming a published writer. So one of the things that emerged from that workshop and other conversations that we've had with Veritas that there was a real lack of support in terms of taking a writer from, you know, draft manuscript stage to publishing, that, a lot of times a lot of the networks and opportunities that are available in Ireland to writers seeds to not be as accessible to these writers, as they might be to some other emerging writers. So we put together a programme that sort of gives you a comprehensive structure in terms of how to move from, you know, the initial stages of developing your manuscript and developing your craft, through to how to get in touch with agents and publishers, how to work with editors, you know, how to apply for grant funding or other resources that could support writers during their careers. And then also giving them a community within which to work because we found that that's been really the motivation to keep going, Yeah, particularly during the pandemic and lockdown like writers have felt so isolated, you know, because even the the usual support that you would have, whether it was a writing group, or you know, going to workshops and things like this has not been, you know, as readily available. So, what we have done with Kate forward is the sort of sustained programme that includes, you know, one on one mentoring, and sort of really concentrated focus on craft, but then it also has workshops, seminars, and the opportunity to showcase work at festivals and other literary events so that our fellows really feel plugged into the literary world. So they're not, you know, on the margins or feeling like they're called on for specific topics or opportunities. That's great. And how many people are currently fellows. So this is our first year. It's a two year fellowship. And we have five fellows, four of them who came to the pay forward programme, and then one currently sponsored by the independent living movement, Ireland, for their members. Fantastic. And it sounds like a very creative programme. But something I certainly notice in my role is how I know you're constantly trying to improve my digital skills. So is there any scope for I don't know getting getting comfortable even with PDF markups? Or things like that within the fellowship? Or is it more creative focused? When it is focused on the work mainly, but because because of lockdown, and because of the situation? A lot of the mentorships are taking place online at the moment. And so they have had to share their work online and in digital formats. And so I think they're all getting used to that. No, but yeah, mentors are used to that. Yeah, yeah. It's a real learning curve. And it's something that's I noticed in publishing, you realise just how computer skills are so needed. Yeah. And I think that that can serve as a barrier to some people. Okay, so I'm meeting both of you And I've learned about your roles. And can you tell me more about your team? And I think you're all part time. Yeah, well, at the moment, we have, there's four of us, in our team, and myself and for newly Fionnula and Nidhi, our directors scheme press, and we do everything to do with the press. So from finance, to strategic planning to the publication programme, and the Pay It Forward programme, and so on. So we oversee all of that together. And we each have different roles within this and in which we are, which are evolving all the time. But we have different responsibilities for aspects of the work, but we all I am, I suppose our passion, and our love is working with writers and on books. And so we all do an element of that together as well. Nice. So you're a contributing editor. And then we just learned in the last couple of weeks, we're really lucky to get Sri sand to come and work with us. And tree is an expert in digital marketing. So she is a content developer journalists. So she's with us one day a week. And so she's managing, like, our website or social media programme. Yeah. So yeah, so it's that that's also at the moment. And we I suppose we're what we believe in, and we think is key. And Nidhi, has definitely parachuted us in to this area as well with her thinking, but I suppose what we have found is having a diverse team, with different lenses has made us better, you know, as a company, and I suppose we would have always worked with writers closely and brought their vision to the page. So we like that way of working. And then having Nidhi, as part of the company is just brought of so much knowledge and expertise. Because of the way we all look at things differently. And I think that just enriches what we're doing. And then we also have Sri, so we're very committed to try and open up spaces and opportunities for for writers, editors, publishers, from different backgrounds to get involved, we need that I think the scene is very, you know, there's very little opportunity, as I understand for people anyway, to get even a decent paying job in the sector, like totally get that what we're trying to do is open that up and say, Look, we're trying to create these spaces and a bit why we are part time and what we do, because we have a full programme of work, we're trying to bring in other people, yes. So that's our model at the moment. So to enable that to happen, you know, we're just creating the spaces and trying to bring in people to do certain jobs with the skills rather than trying to do everything ourselves. And over time that our model will become sustainable, that will have real jobs for people. Yeah, we are also like, see ourselves very much a social enterprise model. So everything that we do for the company, goes back into the values and ethos of the company, which are about inclusion, participation, and ultimately beautiful books that contribute to the cultural diversity of our society. So we have that broader societal goal. So yeah, I mean, we, we absolutely believe and are passionate about that, that needs to happen. And scheme needs to be a diverse and forward looking company. Yeah. So we have we have challenges in that. I mean, you know, myself and Fionnula, are middle class white women who probably, you know, we are doing other jobs to facilitate this, but we're determined, as with Nidhi, the three of us are determined to make it a company that reflects, you know, our society into the future. So, for that to happen, people need to be brought into publishing into editorial, you know, writers need to have community that meeting spoke about so that they can converse, and then, you know, we can move beyond empty conversations about diversity, diversity, whatever be doing on diversity, what are you doing? How can we do diversity? We got with diversity in them, you know, where people themselves are doing the work, you're actually creating, you know, when people say, I know, well, I mean, it's what people are starting to based on when you're saying, Well, guys, we just need to do stuff now. Yeah, no, there's no diversity, to pick it up. And yeah, and it's not easy, because resources are tight. So we understand that. Yeah, you know, but you know, need you could talk about that till the cows come home, but I don't want to leave the responsibility to talk about that. So that's why I said it first. On it, I suppose on an immediate practical step, if you were to advise, like a publishing house, okay, what's the first thing you can do to not just make diversity and inclusion a box ticking exercise? I don't know. Is there a practical for what there are many steps but what would you advise or what do you think we need to see kind of more off in submissions or commissions, or I think we really need to see more more editors from diverse backgrounds. Yes, the lens that you read through is sometimes as important as what you're reading. And there seems to be a real idea of what Irish literature is, which, you know, is inherited, there's a legacy there. Some of that needs to be challenged, some of that needs to be progressed a little bit, and it will only happen if we have readers coming in with different, maybe slightly newer eyes, you know, in looking at what is being talked about it. And it's very difficult to do in publishing, because the arts industry, in and of itself is very low paying, like the jobs are very low, it isn't feasible for somebody to have a full time job in publishing. So you have to, you have to be privileged anyway, to be able to do it, you know, as a side gig, or as a second job or whatever it might be. And that's something that we're really actively trying to address working with the Arts Council to set at least the base level of income for people who want to work in politicians, Society of Young Publishers, members will be really happy to hear that you're doing it is one of the most important things because until we do that, you know, it's all it's all just lip service, because you're not actually going to be able to to give someone a decent job, which is a sustainable job. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so that's sort of where we're investing a lot of resources at the moment is looking at, it's not that there isn't any work like there is actually work, but it just isn't, you know, we can't, in good conscience, ask someone to come and work for, you know, a couple of 1000 a year, it just doesn't, just doesn't work. So yeah, I think part of the problem is that part of the problem is, we have really small independent presses and, and they've all been functioning, because people have been underpaid for a long time or not paid at all, sometimes, you know, done on like a voluntary basis. And then that's become sort of the benchmark, and the standard for whereas it doesn't actually work financially. So so that I think needs to be addressed and looked at. And I think we need to be a lot more transparent in terms of what the models are for this kind of business and whether they work and if they do, you know, how, how do we keep that going? And if they don't, how do we actually move the goalposts so that, so that we aren't stretched every month to, you know, be able to pay people for the work that we do? So that's one thing that I think remains to be to be looked at is how can we bring people in from diverse backgrounds into well paying jobs so that they feel like they're contributing, and they're being valued in an organisation? And that isn't just a few people who can afford to work and proficient? Which, which is what it is? Can you afford to work? The problems? Yes, sir. Do you have another job? You have a second source of income? Do you live with somebody who's putting your rent bill? You know, would you have to live in Dublin to work in publishing, which is another? And I think it happens in all the countries to do you have to live in the capital city to actually work where most of the publishers are based. So there's a lot of those kinds of things as well, which I think are barriers for people at the financial what seems to be the biggest one. But yeah, I think that's a very good start. And a kinda leads on before we started the interview, and Nikki and I were talking a little yesterday, a very big book was published. And I think often in the book industry, like there's particular hype about certain books. And ultimately, small presses are just as much a business. How do you? How do you encourage the audience to buy your books? I know, you've mentioned your new social media. So that's good. And even so I work in children's press, and we also publish ya. And we've tried to like start a book talk. I'm very dinosaur up so I can't talk about that. But there are certain platforms you need to use or how to hide to small presses kind of make that noise or I think it's a it's a big thing is looking at the audiences like we there's a number of aspects to it. I think we have to invest time in booksellers and Messenger. Yeah, a lot of hand selling has to happen. Yeah. You know, at the moment, I think, you know, some of the key sales The reality is they come through the bookshops and the booksellers. So I think building relationships there and having good practice around how we connect. Yeah. And so that people are interested in you and and the books that you're bringing out and let them know, good information, different points. And that helps their sales. So that's one aspect of it. It digital, of course, I mean, we have Shri on board now who can advise and help us I mean, we've been doing our best with us. And, you know, showcasing authors focusing on campaigns, and we're becoming more strategic artists over the year trying to plan it. And on a monthly basis looking at content trying to be, you know, a bit more meaningful in our engagement as well, I think is important. But also there's a lot of infrastructure we you can tap into out there. And community based organisations, for example, we found when we published in Mulatu, spoke, there was a different kind of audience for it, who have built up now with the press, you know, and we have customers in the press who are interested that haven't read my latest book, they're interested in your next publication. So I suppose what we're trying to do is look at strategies how to relate to our our direct customers, who are actually really interested in what we're doing, and because they're books that spoke to them, and that they really wanted to read it and but outside that there's a whole range of community networks there's, you know, that we've utilised say with own spoke that you know, there's there's other aspects. So I suppose aspects of saying teach book, what Weren't you think that was? Said? He would be interested in that? Yeah. So owns book, for example, there's been a huge interest in it, because at the moment, you know, traveller culture has been totally suppressed and hidden. And so there's no materials about traveller culture, and owns book in some way speaks to that. So that was a whole other area where people were saying, Well, look, it'd be great to have this in schools or yeah, great to have this in universities. Are it because it's in the folklore tradition? How do we link with that? So I suppose it is about trying to score bows every and looking at unusual audiences. And I think this is where some of the assumptions come in. It's only a certain kind of reader who read those books. Actually, we found you know, the audiences are endless if we find them, but you know, some outreach work is vital. Going where the author has community base, as well. So it is about broadening our horizons, yes, doing the traditional things, but realising you know, that their sales and, and audiences who love these books in different corners of the country, and it's nice that you mentioned Owens book, wide mean travels, because we did it as RSVP book club. And a lot of the members that are like many people over locked in, I just haven't been able to get into anything. And this was something so different. And yes, we all felt it was like something someone had told us at some point, like the stories and so yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And that it's great. Let's say for example, if it is introduced in schools, because it like makes people recognise Oh, actually, I don't just have to read the next book and the particular series I like, or I don't just like x Gianna, or Yeah, so it was, we were at without meaning to sidestep too much. We were quite fascinated by why the moon travels. And we wondered actually about the editorial process, because it must be very hard to edit a book that is essentially spoken. Can you talk a little bit about that, or yeah, we'll own. He was phenomenal, really. He had his own process. And his process was very much steeped in the oral tradition. So he would hear a story in his head voice from someone who told it to him, and then it would shape up in his mind. And what he does is he records, the stories, and then he transcribes Some, yeah, so I suppose it was very much working like that. But it was, but this is the other part. To this process is fascinating, because I suppose for myself and for Newton, who worked on that book with him, we were very conscious, we're working cross culturally, yeah, so we're bringing a whole level of assumptions to that process. And so, we I mean, own is very forthright anyway and very in control of his material and what he was doing and his vision for the book. And so, I suppose we would have been very careful how to approach that. So we would have met on in a workshop format, to check wordings very minor editing, like, you know, just kind of how certain words had certain meaning certain phrases, and because the language is quite beautiful. So you have to roll with that and the phrase ology and difference you get into the rhythm of it. But then it's also a big learning a big learning curve, but also being conscious that look, you know, the phrase ology of the use of words, also this gammon throughout the book as well. So there was a big discussion on how that would be presented in the book. Yeah, we're very much laid by own so we worked in workshop format, and talking about lines talking about things recording them what we agreed would be a change. Yeah, so we just sound our rhythm. Yeah, with that focus. It's a long process. And not really once we gone into once the stories were decided upon how many what the collection would look like we kind of flew through it really into But it was an intense period. That was good. Because yeah, it was a creative, but an interesting one in our recent publication unsettled by rolls and McDonogh. That was a really interesting process. Because we were very conscious with that book that Rosie would have a reader of her choice from the community sensitivity readers would read that because, again, we're working on the book, but we may not be seeing something practically speaking, if people wanted to do, you know, positive stuff like that it is, you know, from a writing perspective, it's about less submissions not using, I mean, what we found in Pay It Forward was, I mean, the applications that that we receive to that process were so from so many different backgrounds, people we hadn't met before, hadn't heard before. So you no need to put a phenomenal amount of work into finding alternative methodologies and reaching writers. And I think people have to do that if you if you want, if you really care about, you know, your list and being diverse, you've got to reach out, but also invest in writers and invest in relationships. I mean, it's not the case that you're going to get, you know, really anymore. I think all these amazing submissions is deciding what kind of books you want to produce. And reaching out targeting grace. Yeah. Mentioning but reaching out. Yeah, well, yeah. And commissioning base to that. So I suppose the model of commissioning, but I'm not just saying, you know, you're right, you know, it is reaching out, instilling confidence in people that you're also a publishing house that is invested in writers that wants to work with writers that is prepared to put, you know, time and effort into people's work as well. I think that's one of the distinct things about steam as apprentices that we do work with writers. So it's not, it's not meant to get a polished manuscript in that's ready to go, you know, and then just have that, that six months of time where you're working on the finer aspects, but though you do actually take the concept or the vision the writer has, and then look at what sort of story can be taught from that, you know, and it is, it is a very collaborative process in a way, which I think is something that I, as a writer, really love is working on bringing that to life in a way because when you're going to sometimes you don't see a lot of things like have blind spots in your own writing. Really? Yeah, of course. So yeah, but then someone else who comes in with a different is able to forget it and say, Well, this is what you're trying to say. But it isn't kind of a prospect or anything. That's where, you know, working with writers, especially writers from from backgrounds that are different from your own is such a learning process for for both sides, you know, because you really do have that, you know that you need both sides, like you can't just have the one. And that for me is really, it's really cool, feeling quite rewarding. As a writer, and as an editor. I know you mentioned that as a team, we do everything together. And you try to do as much with your writers as possible. When it comes to things like covers, or does anyone some publishing has even the title ultimately, the publisher kind of decides but in skiing, how do you Well, it's writer lead and I think they're important, I think so I remember as a writer, you know, I had a writing course having a an input one day about covers and house songwriters, they're from Ireland, you know, who would be hopefully she will talk to us about covers and how they there they are sold a particular way where ism meets, you know, your your vision of your book, and how you have to give up a little bit. Yeah, to go this way. Oh, that's a shift. And you know, but I think that might happen to Skeen. All right, if we sold the rights of a book, you know, to another publishing house Sitecore particular way more control over then. But I think we those What was that what I love about Skene? Is we have control, we can say yes or say no. And when I say we I mean writers, if we're showing a cover to a writer and they don't like if we're not going to run with that we watch try and come up with a concept early on we talk and it's great talking about covers early on because it makes you feel like I'm gonna have a book so it's actually a good milestone to motivate and support people to see look this is gonna happen it's yeah, you know, you're getting there you're very close. Now these are just edits we promise this is normal. And, and yeah, and typesetting and all that and people who've got it takes so long to produce a book you see importance of font fits the telephone, but also to publicity sides of things is very important. I think. Having you know, one of my responsibilities in scheme was was kind of the publicity side Over the last few years, that's why I'm so delighted to have Shree out me and give me some expertise. But, um, it's it's really important. I think that writers are comfortable that they do what they feel is appropriate that it's real and authentic and that, you know, we're not shoving people into spaces, you know, an overloading them. Oh, yeah. So it can be kind of very cruel. So, like, kind of knowing how to be protected. This space is very important. I will just ask a few more questions. Um, but I am very interested in high scheme came to be in Ireland. And so do you think there's like a comparable press abroad? Or have you and you mentioned selling rights? Has that happened yet? Or is it something you're looking into? Or? Yeah, I mean, we we did so the, the rights of this hostel life to Virgo nations. Yeah, yes. Yeah. That would that happen fairly early on. So that's why scheme organised itself as well, because we had all these requests and wanted to make sure that Minocin had the best possible. I mean, that's another thing we want writers to want to come to scheme, because keen is good press. It's a home for them. We respect so that they will ask you mentioned money. Yeah. Yeah. That's a you know, and that's another aspect that we you know, needy spoke about there around. I mean, a bit of the problem is that if press have been founded in programmes, you know, if you've got a great proposition from there you go, well, we're not getting funded for salary or costs. So that needs to change. And I think the Arts Council is going to examine that, but that is definitely something as needy said that we've been lobbying for as well. But you know, you're not going to produce publishing programme unless you have the right people to produce it. It's not you know, it's just it on your serves that. Absolutely. So I think the Arts Council is going to shift because they were very much a programme funder. Yams and the Arts Council are the bread, you know, they are an important anchor funder for a lot of presses. So yeah, so I think that that's the first thing but also for writers pay the artist. How do you pay the artists when you've your funding on, you know, so it's fine having aspirations but unless we get into the nitty gritty, and so for us pay the artists were really trying to see how our contracts, and we've improved them even over the last couple of years, and to try and pay the artists that's trying to have a fair model of how writers can make money from sales. So I suppose what we can offer right is we can say, look, in Ireland, we're pretty, you're pretty good at established, we know what we're doing. We have, we understand who the sellers and the booksellers are, we think read your book we can sell definitely sell 5000 copies. I mean, that would be our commitment to most of our books, yes, we actually believe we can do that. So we're committed to that. And then we base while author advance should be based on what we think we're going to sell. And we should commit them to selling that for income for them. And income for us that can be invested back into into other books, and so on. So it's trying to raise and then we also try and have a fee as well, sometimes as well as advance, we try and pay a fee where possible. Again, it depends on resources, but I mean, just trying as best we can to but it shouldn't even be I shouldn't even be saying that trying as best we can. We should be paying the writers because trying it's stealing Yeah, doing it. But you know, and then we also have to make sure that books it makes sense to produce. Yeah, it's become such a environmental cost. Yeah. Or financial. And, and because the environmental aspect is so important, but Anna costs that so prohibitive, that look, we can't really do this, you can't pay the writer pay the staff produce the book in actual high quality. And that stands out that it's worth bringing to a publisher. And then also, you know, do it all we just not breaking even so it is a challenging environment. And and you also mentioned the environmental aspect. I mean, that's something we're starting to look at now and say, Well, look, what are the inks we're using? What's the paper, you know? So there's policy challenges in there, but they're all good ones. They're ones we should be looking at? Yeah, so we've decided, Well look, our model, we need to get percentage of our funding from Arts Council. That's an anchor funder, but then we need to offer our sales. So that makes us work harder for the writers. And then we're also looking at other avenues of funding. So that, you know, social enterprise model for us seems to make sense, given that we have a developmental aspect to our work as well. And the societal impact we want to make so busy busy times ahead. It's great. Yeah, yeah, I can see how your goals remain the same, but you're just like, branching out and just making the I think the Arts Council funding is fantastic. You do want to have your own stability as well. So the books we just need them sold and bought I am so then I suppose my final question really is advice for publishing hopeful. So what would you why? Why work in an independent press? And if you do want to work in an independent press, what are the skills you can bring? Maybe you could, I think you've been quite open about the challenges. But a few think of any other challenges. And also the benefits was one of the things for me is if you do want to work in an independent press, you have to learn everything, you have to learn things that you might not particularly be interested in or want to do. But because because of the nature of small presses that you wouldn't, you wouldn't have to do a lot of other you will have to like, at least know about other areas of publishing, which can be quite interesting. But yet to have an open mind about you know, what, what that job entails and maybe to is an opportunity to shadow somebody within a publishing house, you know, Shadow Lee, we're moving out of a pandemic and shadowing is possible or conversations at a safe distance. Yeah. But no, it does help to see what what people do day to day, I think in publishing houses because I think like any job it gets romanticised, you know, the editorial aspect of it or working with writers, which, you know, is a big, it's a big aspect of it is really wonderful. But then there's all this other stuff as well, that, you know, you do spend, probably most of your time on, this isn't isn't as exciting. But I think one of the things about about Ireland is that because it is so small, and because there are so few presses that you can actually, you can progress quite quickly in your career if you if you're so inclined, you know, and so being able to actually establish those relationships with voters and work with readers and with media outlets and booksellers, and agents, and you know, it's a lot easier to do than it would be in New York or London or in that way. It's I think it's wonderful that and we do have the MA in publishing. in Galway, that's right, yeah. And we've spoken actually to one of the lecturers from the AMA in Galway, and it's so oversubscribed. Yeah, amazing, and incredible, because a lot of those graduates when they do graduate from that programme, don't actually find opportunities within Ireland. So they end up going to somewhere in the UK. Yeah. And so we are losing out on a lot of talent. And they actually do want to stay here, but there isn't, there just isn't enough, you know, there aren't enough opportunities available for them. So I think that's on us as publishers to create those sort of programmes where you know, you can take someone in for a year and give them that experience. And maybe it is a sort of rotating opportunity in terms of you know, maybe you work with two or three different publishers during the year, you get different experience from them in terms of like, whether it's, you know, selling rights, or what editorial or marketing or whatever your speciality would be. So think you're researching property, the areas that you're interested in, and then finding presses that focus on that. And then keeping in touch with them about, you know, what opportunities might come up with might always be a full time position, but you can definitely come in on certain projects, or maybe certain books start out that way. So we are definitely also looking at providing opportunities for people from next year onwards, something between an internship and an apprenticeship. Yeah, something that would still, it would still be paid, you know, it would still be feasible, but it would be probably project based more than position to start over. But I think that works for someone coming in as well. Because then you sort of get an idea of what you would be doing and absolutely to reality can is always different. Yeah, yeah. Anything else you think Granja or, I mean, I think that's the nail on the head, is you prefer to do everything, you know, particularly the art scene, it is so small, you know, people could think about, you know, learning, learning with a vision of setting up their own precedence or some aspect of hard work and challenging but, you know, if you learn the trade, you could do something that particularly interests you in books that you're passionate about, that isn't here. I mean, it's, you know, there's a lot of areas we don't have in Ireland, of publishing, that could be specialised in that could be, you know, a small business or a part time business. You know, there are funding streams out there if the models if you get the models, right, so, yeah, we definitely say Dear Publishing people, you know, yeah, you know, it's not it's a very tough industry because you're not walking out into jobs that are so few jobs that you See, but there is opportunities there. So and we would love to create more particularly editorial and may be great to see diversity across the board and book selling and probably yeah and cover designer, like, every height setting because I'm I'm looking at types in a limited way or something. Because English is my first language. So even I don't know, I sometimes think about that. Yeah, so I think you'd be you know, people can research their own business other I've no doubt we'll be publishing graduates who come out they have a great idea for a concept that they haven't seen. Yeah, you don't be afraid, start small you know, it's a project or whatever and, and then get in touch Absolutely. And go for any opportunities that interests them and be prepared to do lots of different things from posting off a pile of books to do an account of spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheets. essential key has an awful lot of administrative work involved in organising but I think that no matter what job you go into, there's always such an element of that, but you don't expect but look the rewards from creating and with writers, they're beautiful books is you know, and then getting involved in other areas and trying to create opportunities is very exciting. So it feels that way, the the challenging aspects of the job. If you love marketing and talking to her, she can meet a lot of people in advance Absolutely. Exciting anecdotes, or Yeah, perhaps, particularly and for people listening, they can probably tell that we're together, which is a nice change and like publishing is actually it's a lot of isolated work, but it is a lot of connection like within your team. So yeah, I think the bus community element of publishing will begin to come back which is nice. Well, I think that's everything. Thank you so much both and I think this will be invaluable so RSVP podcast is listened to by people in Ireland and across the UK. So that's nice. And as I said our SAP Ireland now you through our book club, which he gave us I was really of discussion which is great. And I know some people brought it on holidays and people have passed it on to both children and their their own adult parents. So it's been well received. So thank you for for having me. That was Elizabeth Goldrick. In conversation regarding your intel and ladies back from skein, press. Find out more about SCADA. Visit their website, LinkedIn the footnotes or to discover more content from SAP Island. Follow them on Twitter at SVP Island