Inside Publishing
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Inside Publishing
Interview with Lauri Kubuitsile, author of The Scattering
In this episode of Inside Publishing, Gemma interviews Lauri Kubuitsile, author of The Scattering. We talk about her experiences as an author who has worked with many publishers, her views on genres as a marketing tool and why she doesn’t have a literary agent. Her historical novel, The Scattering explores the lives of two women and their experiences of two historical atrocities in Southern Africa at the beginning of the twentieth century: the Herero and Nama genocide, and the Anglo-Boer war. Now published in the UK by DAS Editions, Lauri shares why she was compelled to write this story and how she conducted her research when the historical record is so fragmentary.
Lauri's book: The Scattering https://www.daseditions.com/books/the-scattering
DAS Editions
Website: www.daseditions.com
Instagram: @daseditions
Books mentioned
The Memory of Love by Aminatta Forna
Half of a Yellow Sun by Chimamanda Ngozi Adiche
There are Rivers in the Sky by Elif Shafak
Episode transcript:
https://otter.ai/u/6npnuhI7u8cUsnr7mqVLc7y9oSk?utm_source=copy_url
Instagram: @syp_london
Website: https://thesyp.org.uk
If you have any questions about this episode or wish to partake in the show, drop us a line at podcast.syp@gmail.com
Welcome to this episode of Inside Publishing, the series where we interview industry experts on everything publishing.
Gemma Jackson:Hi everyone. I'm Gemma, the podcast officer for SYP London. Today, I'm joined by Lauri Kubuitsile, the author of the scattering. We talk about her experiences as an author who has worked with many different publishers, her views on genres as a marketing tool, and why she doesn't have a literary agent. We also discuss why she was compelled to write the scattering and how she conducted her research when the historical record is so fragmentary. I hope you enjoy! So thank you so much for being here today.
Lauri Kubuitsile:Yeah, thank you for inviting me
Gemma Jackson:so to begin with, could you introduce yourself and maybe give a brief like overview of your career as an author?
Lauri Kubuitsile:Okay, My name is Lauri Kubuitsile. I live in a place called Mahalapi. It's a very large village in Botswana. I've been a full time writer for about 20 years. Prior to that, I was a science teacher. I owned a newspaper for a little while, a printing and publishing company. I'm a bit of a generalist, but I've always loved reading since I was a very young child, and stories of all sorts. And so, yeah, I've I started, I was sort of writing genre. I had a mystery novella, detective series. Actually, there are four books published with different publishers, but the first one was published by Macmillan, and it got chosen as a set work in Botswana. So then after that, I decided, okay, let me try to be more serious about my writing, because I was just sort of doing it, sort of casually sending short stories, you know, out to literary magazines and things. So since then, I've written lot of books. I really am not someone who writes certain things, because that, like, right now, as I'm talking yesterday, I have a children's picture book coming out. So yesterday I was doing marketing things for that book, and now I'm doing, you know, marketing things for a historical novel. And so I have a I have two historical novels that were published by Penguin and originally, and the one we're talking about today, the sketching was the first one that was in 20 It was published in in South Africa, penguin in 2016 and then it did. It did very well. It won a prize in sha ra SHA International Book Fair in Dubai, and then it was published in I had a publishing deal in North America for a while, and then it's been translated into German. It's part and now it's being it was republished in Namibia and Southern Africa last year, and now it's being republished in UK this year. So, yeah, I've had sort of a long career and diverse like, I've written for television, I've written computer games, I've written romance, lots of children's books. I just like stories. I mean, I'm also, I'm a playback theater actor. So I do. I just like stories in all their forms. Yeah.
Gemma Jackson:oh, wow, that's so amazing. Um, how does, how do you get into, like, the different headspace to write different genres?
Lauri Kubuitsile:To me, I think a lot of those genres are quite artificial. I think they're just helping to market the book. You know, there's so many books out there, so they need to put you in some categories so the right readers can find you. So for me, stories just come to me, and then, you know, if it's a children's book, it's a children's book. If it's a short story, it's a short story. Like right now I've been writing for the last about year and a half, I'm writing a very political sort of humorous novel. It's just stories, just if they come to me and they keep sort of harassing me. I always have this kind of scientific way of thinking about stories, like I always will think of something. And then if it has legs, if it's going to go somewhere, it will keep being in my mind. And I have something I call fiction pressure. It is just a made up thing, but when it gets to a certain it has to get to a certain, like manic sort of way. And then I must just. Write it, and that's why I can write, like, rough drafts very fast, like three, 4000 words a day, very ugly, ugly rough drafts. But yeah, so I don't really, yeah, genre. It's just, this is a children's story. This is a teenage story. This is it just comes as a story.
Gemma Jackson:Do you have an agent or, like, how do you balance that?
Lauri Kubuitsile:No, I've never had an agent in southern Africa. We don't need agents. We can just approach publishers directly. And then the deals I've had overseas, like, I have books, eight children's books with Oxford University Press in UK. They were just, I mean, that one, someone at OUP knew my work, and they contacted me. Do you want to write for us like this? I kind of prefer, I think. Anyway, I've never had a manager, so I don't know, but, I mean an agent, but I feel like I wouldn't, I'm not well suited for that, because I'm bit I don't want to be branded or any of this. I want to be free, and I think an agent would want to get me into a lane and stick there. And that's not really my personality
Gemma Jackson:It gives you a lot more flexibility to choose,
Lauri Kubuitsile:yeah, and I, and, you know, I've managed to make a living for the last 20 years from my writing, which is kind of, I mean, because I do, I was, I was a teacher also. So I write some, I write fiction that's often used in the schools, and you make bad for me, you make better money in educational writing, so it kind of supports my trade publishing. And occasionally, you know, things happen. I've had books optioned for films, so you get some money falls on your head from that. And I just managed to survive. I suppose if I had an agent, it would not be quite so chaotic. But I like chaos.
Gemma Jackson:So what's it like getting awards and like? What's the process like for awards and prizes and things,
Lauri Kubuitsile:you know, okay, I've won, I've won a few awards. I mean, for my short stories. I don't know if you know the Kane prize, the Kane prize, it used to be, but I think it's still quite prestigious. But it used to be extremely prestigious for African writers. So and if you were on the cane list, it was like the beginning of your career, really, but so I was shortlisted for the Caine prize. And it was nice because, you know, you get a trip to London, you have lunch at the House of Lords, and you go to the borderland for the dinner and, and so, I mean, it's just fun as a human and other words, like even the word in Dubai, I was supposed to go, unfortunately, at the time, I was house sitting in the in Cape Town for a friend who had a cat, so I couldn't go. So my daughter went. My daughter had a good time. She collected the prize. And, yeah, I mean, you get and it does get your name out there. I mean, I've won a couple prizes for children's writing. And, yeah, it's, you get to travel use you sometimes get money, and you get your name out there.
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, with translations, how? How does that work? How do you like negotiate being translated into different countries. And how do, how much do you work with the translator on your manuscript?
Lauri Kubuitsile:It really depends, because, like with the German translation of the of the sketching, my translator was fantastic, and she, she really, we worked together a lot. I mean, she had a lot of questions and even afterwards. I mean, she often gets gigs for me in Germany, you know, at lit festivals and stuff. Um, but, like, I had a book teenage, a book for teenagers. It. It's called signed hope to see in love. It's actually, sounds like a romance, but it's actually a humorous book that was translated into Slovakian. I never, ever met the translator. It was done. It was a deal done to the publisher. And I've had short stories translated into Swedish and French and things. Again, no contact with the with the transfer. It just really met. You know, it just depends on the situation. And anyway, I think in a lot of ways, because I don't speak that language, I just have to have faith that they've done a good job. It's only with German, with the German edition, that's scattering. I'm lucky, because I know, you know, I've. I like, I I've been to Namibia a lot, and I've, I've had different events, and I meet a lot of people who have, have read the book both in English and German, because there's a lot of German speaking Namibians, and they've told me that it's a very good translation as well. So, yeah, I mean, you just have to have faith that they don't mangle your work. Yeah.
Gemma Jackson:So before we get onto more about The Scattering, I wanted to ask about how much your experience of being published varies between different countries, and how the process maybe differs.
Lauri Kubuitsile:Okay, I've mostly been published in southern in South Africa. Actually, I have a lot of publishers in South Africa. And even within those publishers, I mean, like penguin is a multinational, Macmillan, Oxford University Press, the South African one I have a couple books with them. It's different compared to like, there's a publisher that I had to a lot of writing for. I have a lot of contracts with them, vivlila, the independent, black owned publisher in Joburg. It's different overseas, mostly my overseas publishers have been okay, Oxford University Press, UK, I have a guy there who is just my guy. I don't know much about the publishing, but he's lovely. And I and then Waveland, there was a publisher in North America. Waveland kind of a university publisher that had the rights for the scattering for North America, that was a deal done by Penguin, so I was sort of out of it. And what else? Oh, like even the Slovakian a lot of these international publishers, I mean, they go through your your local publisher, and they leave you sort of out, only I, sometimes I don't even see the contract. I just get sort of deal with my with my local publisher. So I don't know it's not, it's not a big part of my life, I'll be honest. But with with this new, this new publisher for the sketch ring in in UK. I mean, Gersy is very communicating with me. We're doing a lot of marketing things together. She really loves the book. She's very excited about republishing it in the UK. So I think it will be a bit like my German publisher, who I'm very close to as well. I mean, that was a good experience the public, a small publishing house all run by women. They have a they have a bookstore in Berlin, African bookstore. They run the African Book Festival in Berlin. So they're very connected to that. You know, the whole continent, continental literary scene, where some of these publishers, you know, if they know nothing about Africa, they can be a bit of a problem. But yeah, Gersy is great.
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, she is, yeah. So The Scattering is originally published in 2016 with Penguin South Africa coming to the UK this October with published by DAS Editions. And I've read it myself, and I adored it. It's so it's so raw and visceral, and it's just incredibly written. Yeah, so could you tell us a bit about the story and who we follow?
Lauri Kubuitsile:Yeah, yeah. The book is about two women, Tjipuka, who's Herero woman, and Riette, who's Afrikaner woman, both of them find themselves in the middle of wars that they themselves are not so committed to, but they become the victims of those wars. Tjipuka, it's the war between the Baherero and the Germans, and for Riette, it's the second Anglo Boer War. And both of them, in the end, after going through quite a bit, end up in ngamiland, which is in the northern part of Botswana, around the Okavango Delta. And although they're very different, I mean, they do, they have a commonality, and they become a sort of friends, friends, and sort of help each other through the the things, especially that Tjipuka is going through when she arrives there. It's a historical novel. Yeah, about those two wars. And those two women.
Gemma Jackson:Why did you choose this story? Why did you want to tell the story of these two women?
Lauri Kubuitsile:You know, initially, because by the time when I was writing this, I mean, it was really like 2014 2013 when I started to think about the idea, I always tell this story, but I'll tell you also, you know, my husband and I, our kids were quite small then, and we used to go camping in Namibia at the coast. We'd always go to Swakopmund, or up north from Swakopmund. And then one year, we decided to go to Luderitz, which is in the southern part of Namibia on the coast, and we were camping. And the where the campsite is is Shark island. It was one of the Herrero nama concentration camps. There's even a big unmarked graveyard there, and I there's nothing written there, and we didn't know anything. And the most terrible thing is, I live in mahalabi, and mahalabi is where Kgosi Maharero eventually moved with his people. We have a very large hararo population here. We have a school named after Mahara. I know many hararo people. I knew Johannes Maharero, who was the chief for them for a long time. He's late now, but so we camped there. And then the next year, I was at the Cape Town book fair, and I just read a very beautiful memoir published by mojaji books called the undisciplined heart, and the author was going to be there. So I was at the mojaji stand. Her name was Jane kachavivi, and she's Namibian. She was British, and she married a very important Peter kachavivi. He's a he's a speaker for parliament. Anyway, so I met Jane, and I was just telling her, you know, we love Namibia. We always go there, what, what? And then I said, Yeah, we were just in Luderitz. We were we were camping there. And then Jane said, Do you know what that place is? And then she told me, and I was just, I was devastated. I was like, here I am a citizen of Southern Africa, you know, living in a place surrounded by Herrero who have gone through this horrible thing, and I don't know this history. And I camped at this place, I felt a sort of, you know, guilt, or guilt at my ignorance and I'm and the shocking thing is, like when the scattering first came out, we did a launch, one of the book launches at Parliament in Windhoek, at the parliament restaurant. So many Namibians, Namibians don't know this history at all. Yeah. And so anyway, when I came back home to mahalabi, I was, I wanted to just educate myself, that's all. So I just started reading, and, you know, learning about what happened. And, you know, a story sort of came in my mind. But by that time, I was mostly writing like books for teens and romance. And I did feel that historical fiction was a little bit above my weight class. I thought I wasn't quite ready for something like this. And then anyway, I went to, I went to Nairobi. I was invited to the story moja literary festival. And I met because I was trying to do some research. And you, you know, I mean, I've spoken about this a lot, also about the historical record. I mean, the historical record, especially for Africa, but the whole world actually is the record of the winners. And the winners are usually white men, and everyone else is just missing. And so it's really hard to find the Herero side of the story, the side of women. You know, it's as if they, in the past, only white men existed, you know. And so I was really struggling. And I went to, I was in Nairobi, and I kept being like I was on panels. But, you know, when you're not on panels, you go to other things. And I kept being sitting next to this guy. We sort of were friendly and and then he asked me at one point, what are you working on? And I said, this is what I'm working on. And I said, but I'm really struggling with research. And I mean, this guy, I think he was, like a PR, he was a very educated person, a PhD somebody. And for some reason, he knew the entire history, and he gave me, like, all these books and academic papers that I must read. So then I came back and to mahalappy, and I felt like, you know, I'm equipped now, at least I know where to start. And then, yeah, so I did all the research about ship puka and like the pre colonial history of Herero, the When the Germans came, that relationship between Kgosi Maherero and the German. And leadership there. And then I knew, I knew the story was that react and shipa would meet in ngamiland. And I knew reacts back story. I mean, I knew all of it, but it wasn't in the book at first. And then in one of the very early rough drafts. I had a reader, a Namibian guy who lives in Canada. Now he's the big author, Peter midgely. And he said, You know what? I just have a feeling that this Riyadh story is bigger than you're letting it be. So I decided to write Riyadh story, sort of separate from shipukas, until they got to ngami land, which was they were already together. And so, yeah, that's how it because at first it was really all about rhubarb, and shippuka was like a love story and the tragedy how war, you know, destroys everything and but especially and the personal, you know, I was thinking a lot about Aminatta Forna's book, which I can't remember at the moment, the one set in Sierra Leone, but also Half of a Yellow Sun by Chimamanda Adiche. Like these kind of, these kind of books that are about war, but on a very personal level, because it's so easy, you know, you say 100,000 Heraro were killed, or whatever. It's so big a number. But when you say, you know, this is what Ruhapo went through, or this is what Tjipuka went through, yeah, I just feel that we can find it's a, it's a human size tragedy that you can actually feel, you know? So, yeah, then, then, then when I got react more inside the book, sort of shifted to become something else it was, it was like, kind of like, oh, you know, it's like, this a lot with writing. I don't know if you are also a writer, but you think you know what you're writing, and then when you're done and you look, it wasn't what you were writing. And that's, that's the thing I love most about writing, is that it helps me to understand what I understand or what I know or want to know. So, yeah, that's what happened,
Gemma Jackson:Amazing, and that's exactly what strike struck me reading the book, is how like, personal and how it was as much about like, the in kind of individual conflict of everybody, as much as their interaction with the world around them. Yeah, it was just amazing. Um so did you like base Tjipula and Ruhapo and Riette on any specific like individuals. Were there any stories that you came across during your research that you sort of brought like the details from specific people, or were they sort of a like amalgamation of different things that you came across?
Lauri Kubuitsile:you know, I tried to use the research because, as I said, the historical record has all these holes. There's just nothing. So the research is sort of setting up the stage, sort of, you know, and then, no, it wasn't individual people, although with Riyad. I mean, of course, the africaners really have a lot about, I mean, there's a lot of information there, even for the women, because the women were left behind, and the, you know, the British were very cruel. I mean, they, you know, they and those concentration camps for the women and children, the Afrikaner women and children. And also, like I, whenever I speak about this, I mean, of course, there were concentration camps for the black workers, and those Africana farms, which were far worse, even than the ones for the Afrikaner women and children, and so there's a lot about them and about women who fell in love with British soldiers. And I mean, that's something I've always found a bit fascinating. Long ago, I did an article for a law firm in in in Scandinavia somewhere, where they were talking about the like during World War, two women who fell in love with German soldiers in the occupied countries, and how after the war They were just crucified. Those women and their children, their children in some of those the Scandinavian countries were not allowed to go to school. I mean, they were called horrible names. So that has always been part of living in my mind. So in the case with Riette, I did. Find stories about that, you know, non fiction stories also where, you know, the women's food was poisoned by other Africana women, you know, and, yeah, so in that sense, it was a little bit based on some of the research. But Tjipuka, I mean, you don't find Herero Women anyway, in in that historical record, yeah.
Gemma Jackson:Do you think it's the research, the amount of research that out, that's out there, has kind of stayed the same since you began writing, like 10 years ago? Or has it improved in any way?
Lauri Kubuitsile:I think it's been improving, and even the fiction poetry around the genocide, because, you know, now also, I mean, the hararo and nama people have had a court case with the Germans. There was a deal which they rejected. And so there's been a lot of publicity, and so more people are knowing about it. Yeah, a lot has changed since, since I started, and since, you know, the book came out first in 2016
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, that's really good,
Lauri Kubuitsile:Although still people don't know about it! I mean, I still find people that are just like, What? What is this? Yeah.
Gemma Jackson:I didn't know anything about it before coming across the book either. Yeah, I'm so glad that I know about it now. What was your experience like pitching the book to different to like penguin and to DAS?
Lauri Kubuitsile:I didn't pitch to DAS. She read the book, and then she reached out to me, and she wanted to publish it. That's it, because she heard that it was out of print with Penguin. Do I remember? I think I just sent to them. I'd never been published by Penguin, and I sort of had been thinking, you know, for trade fiction, I didn't want big publishers. I just wanted independent publishers and an editor friend of mine who is a big editor in South Africa, he said, You know what, Lauri, Penguin is the best publisher in South Africa. They're the ones who get awards and everything. So you just must, you know, put your ego on the shelf and do what they tell you and take the deal. And so I did, I remember that, but I've forgotten now what they wanted me to change, but there was a bit of a rewrite. I've forgotten what it was now. But yeah, you know, you just submit as an author and you get acceptance or rejection. That's how it happens in Africa, most of the continent, we don't have agents.
Gemma Jackson:Do you have any advice for listeners who might want to become editors or be like, interacting with authors in any kind of like capacity, like, what do you wish publishers knew?
Lauri Kubuitsile:Ah, yeah. You know, I mean, I hate to sound so, I mean, especially if any publishers who want to publish me are listening. But I do feel, I do feel like I was talking just last year when we were launching the Namibian edition of the sketching. And one young writer asked me about writing and publishing, and I really feel nowadays that I really feel, especially for trade fiction, I just feel like publishing my work is just an option. It's nothing to do with what's important to me. So I really have become someone like, if you give me too much grief, I just dip because I've already finished what I wanted from the novel or from the short story. Because I feel like, you know, publishing, writing and publishing have nothing to do with it each other. Writing is, is art, and you shouldn't, you know, get in like you shouldn't think, okay, I want, like a lot of people, you know, when they first start, oh, I want to be rich like JK Rowling, okay, I'm going to write a book about wizards. Okay, you can do that if, if you want to write a book about wizards, please do it, you know. But know that that's the art. Publishing is a whole it's business. It is business. And when you go there with your, you know, especially new writers, you go there with your heart so wide open and so vulnerable, your your your novel is a part of you, like, you know, and then you give it to these people who are like, all about business. They're not your friends. You can think that your friends, they're not your friends. They want to make money. I mean, not that that's a bad thing. We all want to make money, but you must really just like. Cut yourself publishing writing. So when I go there like I'm because I don't have an agent, I do switch off my writer side, and I really try to be business like, and I think that, you know, like they offer 10% royalties, I always say, Okay, I want 15, or I want 18. Like, I always tell people, you know, say the even 20 if you want. And then, you know, they might think you're insane, but you'll get some what you won't get 10, you know. So, so I think, I mean, I don't know what to tell the publishing side. I know what to tell the writing side, the publisher side, I just wish that. I wish the landscape was not as brutal as it is, but it is what it is, and it's worse after covid, as we all know. I wish, yeah, I just wish that, but it's a wish that can never be fulfilled, because it's business, and I know that. So they do what they do. And you as a writer, you must just know what, what you're doing here. What are you doing? You know, if you are after, you know, big bucks, then you should go maybe, you know, write romance. You pop out one every couple months, and, you know, people get it or some big series, but you shouldn't. I mean, if you're a writer, you should worry about your art and what you're doing here,
Gemma Jackson:Write the story that you... is true to yourself,
Lauri Kubuitsile:yeah, that comes to you. or otherwise. I mean, like, you know, because a lot of times, like with me, because I do write sort of sparsely and direct, and I don't have a lot of idling around with scenery, and I just don't write like that. And even when I try to like when I go back and think, Okay, let me spend take a little bit of time here, I'll write it. And when a next a rough draft up in the future, I'll delete all that because I know it doesn't belong there. So you just have to write, how you write your your story, and maybe it'll get published, and maybe it won't, and maybe it'll find readers, and maybe it won't, but that shouldn't be where, because, like, I always tell people, um, would you're the only one who can tell that story like people are like, Oh, but this story has been told before. Yeah, this stories have been told over and over, but you're the only one who can tell YOUR story the way that you're going to tell it. So if you're not going to do that, then what are you doing here? You know, if you're going to try to write a book like Stephen King, Stephen King is the best. Stephen King, you know, Kate Atkinson is the best. Kate Atkinson, you're not gonna be able to, you know. So you should just write the way you write. Yes, you should always work at your craft. Oh, you should get it better. You should read a lot. You should do. But no, no, no, if the publishing scene is not there for you, you know, like Bessie head. I don't know if you know Bessie Head, she's a big writer from Botswana anyway. She was born in South Africa, but we take her as a Botswana writer. She she was living in a village just nearby, and you know, Bessie had, when she first submitted her work, they were saying that it's children's writing. Imagine A Question of Power being considered a children's book? Because Bessie used solid, simple language, and she just persisted. And really honestly, I think she's one of the greatest writers in Africa. You know, when they talk about Chinua Achebe, Bessie Head, should always be there, and, you know, she she didn't bend to their will. She just kept in in what she knew she had to do. And she was genius, brilliant.
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, so I've just got one final question, which is, What you reading at the moment? Or what would you recommend for listeners?
Lauri Kubuitsile:Well, I just finished rivers, the There are Rivers in the Sky. And I just, I, I'm actually not reading. I'm reading something. I'm reading a book of my friends at the moment, Tendai Huchu for a a teenage book. He has a very good series. I'm just reading that because I can't read another novel. Just now. I just want to be thinking about that book. I thought it was just fabulous. I mean, one of the best books I've read in years. It's such a beautiful book I got. I keep meeting people like, have you read this? Have you read this? You must read Yeah.
Gemma Jackson:I'm like that as well I read it, I'm just recommending it to everyone.
Lauri Kubuitsile:Yeah, I have another one of her earlier books. It's on my table. But even that one I don't want to pick up, it's on my table ready to be read. But I'm like, No, I want to think about this longer. I don't want to be interfered with. So I'm reading other other things, you know, like a humor. I'm reading some humorous detective novel set in Florida. You know, sometimes I do that, like I'll read sort of genre because I want to be thinking about that novel more fully, yeah? But it was a beautiful book.
Gemma Jackson:Thank you so much for talking with me today. It's been brilliant.
Lauri Kubuitsile:Yeah, thank you.
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, just thank you for writing The Scattering, such an amazing book. I hope everyone will go out and find it now!
Lauri Kubuitsile:Thank you. It was lovely talking to you.
Gemma Jackson:Thank you for listening to Inside Publishing. I've been your host, Gemma. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, it really helps us reach more people. Also feel free to let us know your thoughts on social media or send suggestions our way at podcast.syp@gmail.com. See you next time!