Inside Publishing
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Inside Publishing
All Things Publicity with Sofia Saghir, Campaigns Manager at Riot Communications
In this episode, Gemma interviews Sofia Saghir - Campaigns Manager at Riot Communications, a PR agency specialising in arts, culture and entertainment. Sofia discusses the difference between delivering campaigns while working in-house vs at an agency. Also she talks about the range of coverage needed for a successful PR campaign and how the growing importance of BookTok is changing the media landscape. She shares how her career began on her book blog, along with some invaluable advice for aspiring PR and publishing professionals.
Sofia's links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sofia-saghir-5505b5230/
Riot Communications: https://www.riotcommunications.com/
Episode Transcript: https://otter.ai/u/HwOya2CCO8GJoznkxbKUSOQrsaY?utm_source=copy_url
Hosted and edited by Gemma Jackson (SYP London Podcast Officer)
Instagram @syp_london
X @SYP_UK
Website https://thesyp.org.uk
If you have any questions about this episode or wish to partake in the show, drop us a line at podcast.syp@gmail.com
Welcome to this episode of Inside Publishing, the series where we interview industry experts on everything publishing.
Gemma Jackson:Hi everyone. My name is Gemma, and I'm the podcast officer for SYP London. Today, I'll be talking to Sophia Saghir, the campaigns manager at Riot communications. We discuss the difference between working in house compared to at an agency, the range of coverage needed for a successful PR campaign, and how the growing importance of book talk is changing the media landscape. Sofia shares how her career began on her book blog, along with some invaluable advice for aspiring PR and publishing professionals, I hope you enjoy! so thank you so much for joining me today on inside publishing. You're currently the campaigns manager at Riot Communications, and I wanted to ask, firstly, how would you describe riot communications, and how does it differ from working in a publicity department within a publishing house?
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, of course. So Riot is an arts and culture PR agency, our sort of bread and butter is in books, which is kind of what we like to say. We started off very books focused, started by two former publishing professionals who wanted to start their own agency. Over time, we've kind of grown a little bit more to do other things, like film, TV and animation, things like that, but the heart of a lot of what we do is books, and it's not just always a book itself. We work on like publishing related things like awards and prizes. We do the PR for the Nero Book Awards. So we kind of get to work on the industry as a whole. And I think that's the main difference is you're not always... like in house, you're often just working on a book itself, or maybe if you're, like, quite senior, like the brand of the publisher, but in like an agency side, you get to do like wider scope things. You get to see a real spread of the industry in that way. And also work across, like age groups and genres, things like that. Because I'm working on some children stuff, also some adult stuff, non fiction, fiction, which I quite like, because then it means I don't really get bored. I'm always mixing it up.
Gemma Jackson:So how does your planning process differ between like you say you work with authors overall, or with prizes and things. So how do you have the same kind of like, I don't know, tool kit that you go for different campaigns, or do you start from scratch each time?
Sofia Saghir:I think it sort of differs partly because, well, PR, like publicity is just quite a simple thing where you're trying to get media coverage at the end of the day, but the scale very much differs depending on what you're doing. Like, for example, for the Nero book awards, we're involved quite heavily in it, so we do a lot of events planning, like the actual ceremony itself, and a lot of logistical things, but also like strategy related things. Whereas with a book, you can sometimes work on a book that's a little bit more straightforward, you're trying to get reviews, interviews, features, but no two campaigns are the same, which is what I quite enjoy.
Gemma Jackson:Are you part of like a team, or do you work a lot independently?
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, so there are nine of us that write quite a small team, and we always work as a team. There's never just one person on an account, which I really like, because I previously worked in house as a publicist, and I really enjoyed the experience. I thought was really great, but I really craved having a team to really bounce off of, not just relying on yourself to come up with creative ideas and like feature pitches and all these things. Like being able to rely on other people and ask them questions in the same way they're across things the same way you are, is just really helpful, and it makes it like quite a nice environment.
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, it must be nice to, like, bounce ideas off each other and everything.
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, exactly because I started my career at a different PR agency, then moved in house, and then I moved to Riot, and I when I moved in house, that was a big shift for me was the fact that everyone kind of has their own books, very much, works on their own, and might ask for help here and there, but it's very siloed. Whereas I really like having a team and there's and we have different team members for different accounts, which is really nice, and different people have different experience and know different things, so they can bring unique ideas that you probably don't think of. Yeah, that's so nice.
Gemma Jackson:Did you always want to work in PR? Did you always see yourself or, like, Did you always want to work in publishing? Like, how did you how did your career journey?
Sofia Saghir:So I got really into reading at the age of like, 11, 12, and I discovered the book into the side of the internet. At the time it was mainly booktube was the big one, and I just absolutely loved it. And then I started my own book blog. I was reviewing books from the age of 13 onwards, and that kind of solidified my love of publishing and wanting to work in the industry, publicity was always kind of the one I was more gravitating towards. Because as a book reviewer, it's often publicists you're talking to the most. They're the ones sending you books for free, asking you to review books. So those were the people I knew in the industry, and I therefore wanted to do their job, because I thought it was cool, because I was like, oh, like, I know how much it meant to me as a 13 year old receiving a book for the first time, and being able to do that with other people is really nice. So I always knew I wanted to work in publishing and PR. Specifically, I was kind of debating between PR and marketing, because they do sort of go hand in hand, but they are sort of quite different. But PR was sort of just where I ended up. But I did, I did a degree in publishing at the University of Derby. I was part of the first cohort to do that, which was so helpful, because it covered all the different areas of publishing rights, like the legal side as well, obviously, editorial, marketing, PR and I found that super useful, because it allowed me to kind of get a understanding of the different areas, even if I knew I didn't want to work like I didn't really want to work in editorial, I knew that, but like being able to study it in that way really helped. And whilst at University, I also did a few work experience placements at Children's publishers, because I really love children's books, so I did some at Usborne. There was one at Knights Of and Little Tiger. So a lot of small indie children's publishers,
Gemma Jackson:Were they like organized through your course, or did you do that afterwards?
Sofia Saghir:So I sort of it's kind of, I think it doesn't really exist in the same way. But when I was a book blogger, Twitter was like a big thing, and I just sort of became friends with those of people who worked in publishing through that. So that's how I managed to secure the work experience of Little Tiger, which was my first one, and also night serve, because I came friends with the owner through that Usborne was actually they, I don't know if it's come back post covid. They had a thing called the Usborne Academy, which is a week long placement for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. And you kind of, it's kind of seen as like a crash course in publishing. You spend half a day in each department, and you go around, they put you, put us in accommodation. They paid for our food. They also paid us and paid for our travel, which was absolutely incredible and like an experience you can't really get from anywhere else. You know, there were so many of us who wouldn't have been able to afford a free week of living in London or doing work experience that was, like, absolutely incredible, and getting to see the different departments was really helpful there. So that was how I ended up getting those. But yeah, I feel like that connection. I don't know if there was really a place anymore for that, because Twitter is not really the same way.
Gemma Jackson:So did you think you might like go into children's publishing off the back of that?
Sofia Saghir:I feel I would, I really wanted to, and that is one thing I really like about agency, is that I do a lot of children's books, even within it, whenever there's anything related to children's books, it always comes my way. I'm currently working on the 100th anniversary of Winnie the Pooh, which is next year, which is like, such a great one to work on. I just think, like the books you read as a child really shape you, and you really make an impact in that area. It's a very different side of publicity than adult fiction. It's just wildly different. But I really like having that mix, because I think I would have, when I worked in house, I did a lot of fantasy which I love to read. I absolutely love fantasy books, but I found that working on the same thing sort of again and again, like I wasn't feeling as creative as I do as an agency.
Gemma Jackson:So what was like a typical day look like for you
Sofia Saghir:It's hard to say what a typical day would be, Yeah, it's really tricky, because we're for each account, I'm sort of doing different things which I really enjoy that because it means that if I'm getting quite fed up about a certain particular element of my job, I can just move into something else. But we do a lot of obviously reaching out to media and seeing if they're interested in reviewing a book or interviewing an author, which can feel a bit relentless sometimes, because you're just sending a lot of emails and you don't get as many back as you would like, but it kind of forces you to really push and be persistent, which I really, really enjoy, because it makes me think outside the box, which I don't always do sometimes, unless I'm forced to. And we also do, like event planning, like guest lists, and also just like organizing, the running of an event and different things like that, which is a whole other beast, really. But I enjoy kind of flitting between things like that, because it mixes it up a bit. But yeah, because I work on, like, some awards, like the Nero book awards, that's obviously doing PR for like a prize. So you do a lot of talking to publishers and talking to people who are shortlisted and organizing interviews and organizing various things like, there's a lot to kind of keep afloat with it.
Gemma Jackson:So do you mostly do kind of like, like coverage via, like newspapers and things like that, or do you do like radio like, what kind of placements are you getting?
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, so I think for a lot of accounts, the main people really still want the newspapers, because those are the biggies. And also radio, particularly radio four. Radio four is huge for books, because that's where they do the most book coverage of any radio show. But also one thing that I started my career in 2021, and one thing that I feel quite passionate about is, like, looking at different types of media that you probably don't think of but that do actually have an impact, like specific things within communities, you know, community newspapers, like regional elements, but also, like, you know, Tiktok is a big thing for that as well, and how that can sometimes, even though you might not think it is as important as like a review in The Guardian review on Tiktok could sell way more books than the other way, and is just dependent on each book and finding the right audience for it, like there's no one size fits all, because I do a lot of work with like podcasts as well, because it can take some time, but like doing research into particular areas. For example, I worked on a book last year, an unfiction book by James Middleton, the brother of Kate Middleton, and it was about mental health and how his dog sort of saved him, and though there's a lot about male mental health and pets, and so that was a whole area I was not used to. I didn't really, I don't know anything about dogs. I did not know anything. But I discovered so many like media outlets and charities and podcasts that like are that perfect audience for that book, and it's just about reaching the right audience. And it can be quite gratifying when you know what you're doing is going to get the book in the hands of the right people who are actually going to read and love this book.
Gemma Jackson:Yeah, that must be so rewarding when you find the niche
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, exactly like with the James Middleton one. We also organized like, a book launch at Waterstones, Tottenham Court road, and there he wanted loads of dogs there. So I think there were about 40 people and like 60 dogs, kind of chaos, but it was exactly right for that book and for what he was trying to achieve. So it's perfect. Yeah.
Gemma Jackson:Do you think you've seen a shift over like your career, of more and more like influencers being a part of your campaigns and everything?
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, definitely. I think I was very much the beginning of that when I started my career. You know, that was part of why I think I got my first job, was my knowledge of Tiktok and Instagram and how many book influences there are, because, you know, there are a lot of people who don't consume that content and don't really know, I think, unless you know what book talk is like, you can't really see it at a glance, like you have to really be in it to understand it. And whilst I don't post videos, I feel like I've seen them since the beginning. I watch a lot of them, and that I what I quite like is how many times we're working with influencers on things that really, you know, shine and make a point. And that makes sense. It's really nice to see some of these influences grow like there were some I've worked with since 2021 and I was one of the first people to give them, like a book or to offer them a paid opportunity, and now to see them like doing it quite regularly, and doing all that like it's really cool. And I think because of how much book talk in particular has influenced, you know, how many people are reading and the books are being bought, the publishing industry is really taking it seriously, which I don't think they've done in the past with other influencers, which is really nice to see a shift.
Gemma Jackson:What advice do you have for people who might want to go into like your area, into publicity?
Sofia Saghir:I think with publicity, the main thing is to just be aware of the media landscape, because even when I joined I knew about the media, but not in the same way I do now. And it means reading quite widely, like reading all the newspapers, even the ones that probably are not your usual cup of tea and are not the ones you wouldn't typically read, but there is a book for that audience. So just making sure you read the making sure you listen to particular like radio shows, like the radio four front row is a really good one, and different things like that to kind of get an idea of the landscape and podcast, because that is where the impact will be made. Loads of people are passionate about books and passionate about the industry, but a bit having knowledge of the media really makes a difference. And also, just like, yeah, non traditional media, like influencers and different podcasts and things like that as well. Just having knowledge of what's out there, what books are getting covered, who is talking about, what, where, I think that really helps, because so many people, like, I very much at the beginning was just spending a lot of time reading these newspapers and trying to get a handle of, okay, what do the telegraph actually cover? Like, where is their books coverage, all that stuff. So it's really useful to have that knowledge going in, and particularly for any interviews, like understanding, okay, Like they do a book review every week, or they do this, like a big author interview every month. Kind of thing really makes a difference.
Gemma Jackson:What do you think your like favorite project or like your favorite thing about working in PR is?
Sofia Saghir:I think no matter how many really cool things I work on, like we were the first we riot have been enrolled in the Nero Book Awards since the beginning. So we launched the awards and we like, that's so cool, being able to see that impact, and being able to be the person calling up these publishers like, Oh, your book's been shortlisted, your book has won, like that is just really rewarding. But also, I still think like working with a debut author and getting them really good coverage is just like, there's no feeling like it when they you know, they've put their all into these books, and they don't know what to expect, and they're quite worried and not sure how it's going to go. And when you get really good coverage for them, it just feels really satisfying. Like last year, I worked on a debut novel that was like a police procedural crime book by an author who used to work for the police, and I got her on woman's hour, which is the radio four show, and it just meant so much to her. And I could really tell, like, she was really emotional about being able to attend, being able to, like, show her book to the world like that, and be able to talk about it on such a national platform that it really made my heart warm. That's probably my favorite part. Is like seeing the impact it makes on authors. Because so many times, I think a lot of people in publishing can get bogged down with like the day to day life and the workload and all all the various things that are very true and they exist, but remembering at the end of the day that there's an author on the other side of this, who often, you know, is putting their trust in your hands to sell the sell their books and get it out to the world and get it to the right readers. That is where the like, the impact comes from, and that's what kind of motivates me to stay
Gemma Jackson:Yeah. So do you feel like the authors have a lot of kind of input into the different coverage that they get, as well, like or as an agency, do talk a lot with the, I don't know, the publishers that are with the authors? How does the communication kind of work?
Sofia Saghir:Well, it kind of depends, because, you know, we can be hired by a publisher if they maybe don't have in terms of working on a book, if they don't have capacity to do it, or if it's a particular niche area that they don't know anything about, they might hire us. But also an author might hire us if they think they need a little bit more of a push. So it depends on who we're working with as the direct client, but we always, even when we're working directly with a publisher, we always have, like, calls very early on with the author, like, I think it's really important to ask them, like, what they're comfortable talking about and what they're not and also what media outlets, because people you know, have opinions about particular media outlets that they don't want to be associated with. So it's really important to have that information beginning. So you're always putting the author's comfort first. And what they need and what they want is really important. So we're constant communication with them. We always like to update them, because I know how anxious it can make people feel when they're just like, Oh, someone's doing something for my book, but I have no idea, and nobody's telling me anything. So like having regular updates really makes a difference, because even if it's like very small things of like, Oh, we're still having this conversation with this person. They really appreciate it. So communication is a key part of our job.
Gemma Jackson:What do you wish people knew about working in PR? Like, what do you think some something like, hidden about the job that doesn't get talked about enough.
Sofia Saghir:I mean, I think a lot of people get confused in PR and marketing a lot of the time, and I can understand why. I think my Mom, to be honest, gets confused about what I'm doing and thinks I work in Marketing sometimes but because PR is a little bit more relentless, I think, than other areas. You know, you can we spend your entire day really pushing a book, and not a single person will respond to you or want to do it. So it's like all you have to do is keep putting an effort and keep trying. I think it can sometimes get a bit of a bad rep where people like, oh, the publicity for this book, and this publicity for this author is not very good, but there are so many factors at play, and there are so many things that are happening that it's not as easy as people think it is. You know, you have to really keep trying, and you have to be passionate about each book and each author and really getting that coverage. You know, we've all, everyone in my team, have had moments where, like, you just know that this book would work for somebody and that it's, it's a great feature piece that you've come up with that would really highlight it, but you're just not getting anywhere with it. But it's just all about being persistent and like pivoting and moving maybe to a different perspective and a different way to get it across.That's kind of the main thing. I think
Gemma Jackson:The media landscape's changing a lot and different trends and everything. Like, do you feel that change? Like trends might affect, you know, bits of coverage that you really wanted to have.
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, I think trends. But also, like, as you said, the media landscape is changing and books coverage is shrinking. You know, there are less reviews and newspapers now than there were three years ago. There's just less space at the end of the day. That's where, like, being really, what's the word? Just really thinking of new ideas and thinking outside of the box, like really comes into it more. I think now things that you know three years ago, you could have relied on, oh, this will easily get reviews and like the women's magazines, like women's weekly, etc. Now that's probably not as likely. So it's like, what else can I do to reach that same audience, and the answer is not as easy as people might think it is sometimes and often you're like, God, I don't know how to get there, but it's just all about trying to stay creative and keep hanging on your feet and really pushing.
Gemma Jackson:Do you do any analysis after a campaign, or any sort of any numbers and stats and things that you look at to help for the next one?
Sofia Saghir:Yeah. So one thing I also quite like about agency life is usually because we're hired by somebody to work on it, we will set like KPIs at the beginning things we want to achieve, whether it's like X number of reviews, X number of feature pieces, like radio PR interviews, etc, which in house. I mean, I don't know if it applies to all of them, because I've only worked in one, but that wasn't really a thing where I was. So having like a target in mind always is very helpful. And then you can kind of see at the end, like, we always do an evaluation and we see like, Okay, if we didn't quite hit it, was there a particular reason? Like, did we get a lot of feedback along the same lines, like, where, where did we not quite hit it and why? Because it's always important to learn. Because, you know, you're not always going to get the pieces of coverage that you really think gonna like land for this, but it's just important to analyze it and see what you can do going forward.
Gemma Jackson:Last question and a kind of fun one to finish on, what are you reading at the moment? Or what do you recommend for listeners to go out and read?
Sofia Saghir:I'm actually rereading my favorite book series, because I reread it every every year, November, December, time, which I read for the first time in 2012 so it's been a long time, which is the Infernal Devices by Cassandra Claire. It's like it's a shadow hunter world, like Demon Hunters set in Victorian London. It's a trilogy, and I reread it every year, because it's like, as soon as it starts to get cold, it just gives me, like the wintery, cozy feeling. I reread it every year
Gemma Jackson:Yes perfect for this time of year!
Sofia Saghir:exactly? Yeah, it's just like the perfect read. As soon as the slight chill gets into the air, I'm like, great,
Gemma Jackson:Thank you for talking with me today. It's all let me get that first book out again. So that's what I'm been so interesting, because I don't really know much about agency life or anything, so I've learned a lot. reading at the moment.
Sofia Saghir:Yeah, it's quite a unique area. I think not many people know about it, and people always just want to work in house. But I, even when I started working in the industry, you know, I'd applied for jobs everywhere, and this was like an agency was just the first place I ended up. But I just very quickly realized that I really liked the pace of it and how it was working. And I just really like the collaborative element, which I think is not always the case in house. So I think agency life is great, and they're often, you know, hidden part of the industry.
Gemma Jackson:Thank you for listening to Inside Publishing. I've been your host, Gemma. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple podcast Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast, it really helps us to reach more people. Also feel free to let us know your thoughts on social media or send suggestions our way at podcast.syp@gmail.com See you next time!