The Life of a Ghostwriter with Matthew Harms

You can tell when a book is written by a real person, because it sounds like a real person. After four months of calls, drafts, and “ghost doctoring,” my ghostwriter Matt Harms, founder of Pen For Hire,  finally joins me in the studio to talk about what it actually takes to turn messy notes and life stories into a finished manuscript, and why the best ghostwriting never feels like someone else taking over your voice.

We dig into the nuts and bolts of ghostwriting: how Matt keeps projects moving when clients are busy, how he pulls the right stories out of you with the kind of questions that feel suspiciously therapeutic, and what “good collaboration” looks like when you’re building trust fast. We also talk about the reality that most books do not earn back their cost in direct sales, and why that is not the point. A great nonfiction book can still be your most powerful credibility tool, your clearest philosophy statement, and a way to help one reader at the exact right moment.

AI shows up in a big way too. Matt shares a genuinely exciting use case: AI-assisted illustration for children’s books that can turn families into consistent characters and speed up production. Then we flip to the downside, why AI writing often reads polished but empty, and why “garbage in, garbage out” still rules. If you’re thinking about writing a book and wondering whether to hire a ghostwriter, choose a publisher package, or try author coaching, this conversation will help you pick the path that matches your budget, timeline, and goals.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share this with someone sitting on a book idea, and leave a review if it helps. What would you want your book to do for the people who read it?

Proud to say my book is set to be out by the end of 2026, The title is: The Human Advantage - Genuine Curiosity, Deep Connection and Being Fully Authentic in an AI World.  BIG thanks to Matthew Harms from Pen For Hire!! 

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Welcome to The Brad Weisman Show, where we dive into the world of real people, real life, and everything in between with your host, Brad Weisman! 🎙️ Join us for candid conversations, laughter, and a fresh take on the real world. Get ready to explore the ups and downs of life with a side of humor. From property to personality, we've got it all covered. Tune in, laugh along, and let's get real! 🏡🌟 #TheBradWeismanShow #RealPeopleRealLife 

Credits - The music for my podcast was written and performed by Jeff Miller. 

Transcript

Cold Open And Show Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is gonna be a good one, Hugo. The Brad Wiseman Show. Real people, real life, and everything in between. So, what do your kids think of this?

SPEAKER_04 0:09

Oh, they are so embarrassed.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

In order to be unstoppable, you simply don't give up. You get knocked down, you get back up again. Where curiosity opens the door to genuine connection. And really struggle with their emotions. They really struggle with even understanding what's going on. Unfiltered conversations with the people shaping our world. What kind of show is this? And there's red quilted leather all over the walls. There's a swing hanging from the ceiling. I mean, I don't sweat you. And now your host, Brad Wiseman. All right. Hugo. Hi.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Oh, you're here? Yes, I am. Good, good, good. I'm glad you're here. Glad you're here. You know, this is this is different. All right. I always say that. I always say it's different, but this is definitely different. We we have somebody in the studio here, and we're gonna do introduce them a little bit. But I don't know if you know this, but I started writing a book back in January. Yes, I have heard. Did you hear about that? Yes. All right, good. Because I'm I'm glad I brought it up. But yeah, I started writing a book, and what's interesting when I went to start writing a book, like Sylvie had said, write a book. There's different different people that said you need to write a book,

Meeting The Ghostwriter In Person

SPEAKER_03 1:15

need to write a book, and then I started doing it. Then you start sitting there and going, What the hell do I do to write a book? I didn't know what to do. So I found a company that got me in touch with a ghostwriter.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

And I thought after we got done writing the book, I'm gonna have him in to the studio. So we just got done writing the book yesterday. And guess who's here? All right. My ghostwriter, Matt Harms, is here. Matt, how are you doing, man? I'm amazing. Thank you, Brad. Good, good. Yeah, thank you for being here, man. Thanks for driving down here from Westchester, New York.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I mean, how could I not when you told me of people flying in from Canada?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Like I would just look at very bad if I couldn't make a three-hour drive. Well, you could have flown too if you wanted to. I mean, I could have, but the amount of time I'd spend in TSA would have This is so true.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

So true, especially these days. But yeah, so thanks for being here. And you know, it it's so weird because we were just talking about this before we started recording. Is I we've been working together since January 7th, I think we decided, or we came out with you came out with that. And so it's almost four months to the day, I think, next week, if I'm not mistaken. And what's interesting is I thought you were gonna be shorter. I mean, not like me short, like I thought you're gonna be shorter. And it's funny, you come in, I I come out to the lobby and I see this guy that's six foot, you're six foot two. Six two. Yeah, you started getting up and you kept getting up. And I was like, this guy's tall. I'm like, I didn't know my ghostwriter was this tall. But it's not that it mattered. I mean, it wasn't like I asked for a short ghostwriter or anything like that. But you know, this is just cool. It's so cool to meet you in person, and the amount of time we've spent together in the past four months is something I that I never experienced before. And it was cool, really cool. So, so how was your experience dealing with me for the last four months?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, I mean, I'd like to know what your conception of height for ghosts in general are.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

Like how many This is true. You're making a good point. Yeah, like well, Casper was very short. He was also very friendly. Well, I'm very friendly. Yeah, you're very friendly. You're very friendly. Uh, but no, it it's it is interesting that I finally get to meet you. It is funny how we have in our minds how tall somebody is when we're when they're seeing them on Zoom for the last four months. And what a great experience it was. You were the first ghostwriter I was introduced to. And I remember I as soon as they introduced me to you, we did a quick Zoom, and they said, Well, we can you can meet as many as you want, and and you pick the person you want. And we talked for maybe five, 10 minutes, I think. And that was it. I was like, Yep, this is the guy. And I'm very Is that called speed dating?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Kind of. Don't tell our wives. No, don't worry about it. No, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Don't don't don't tell us.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Um, but I I'm very selective. I I want to work with people because we spent a lot of time together, like you said. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

So I got the same impression in five, 10 minutes. I'm like, we're gonna have fun.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

And I like it.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

And we did.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

We had a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

We had a lot of fun. A lot of fun. We got we but we got a good book written. We did. I think we did. I think we did. So let's go into that. Like, you you obviously did you come out of high school going, I want to be a ghostwriter. Man, that's a funny story. Uh yeah, we'll tell it.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I'll give you the brief version of the game. Give me the brief version of it. Yeah, we can't wait to hear it. So, in high in senior year of high school, I was selling term papers for money. Oh my gosh. I think I sold my entire senior class. That is hilarious. And

Matt’s Unusual Path Into Writing

SPEAKER_01 4:25

I wrote them in ways that everyone got the grade the teacher would expect them to get. So I didn't write D students in a paper. That's great. I wrote my own paper at 2 a.m. the day before it was due. I got a terrible grade. Teacher was shocked. I was like, well, I wasn't a paying client, so I didn't get the service.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Oh my gosh. Is it legal to even say this now? I mean I believe the statute probably doctors out there that probably didn't deserve their degrees that you were writing for or something.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

This was high school English in the Bronx.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Okay, yeah. So you know that didn't really matter.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So I get in my head, I'm gonna be a writer. Tell my parents that's what I want to do for a living, and they're like, Yeah, no, you're going to college and you're gonna get a job. Yeah. I'm like, no, no, but really. No, but no, but mom. Yeah, and then the answer was, well, that's great. You could just move out then. And I'm like, well, I don't really want to do that either.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

She's like, write your ass out of here.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah. So I I go to college, I get a finance degree because I didn't know what else to do. Figure, you know, dollar signs, finance. Absolutely. I'll go work on Wall Street. No one tells you the rest of where that go to college and get a good job direction ends. So I had to figure that part out. Stopping at a bachelor's qualified qualified me for just about nothing other than financial sales. So I sold life insurance, I sold mutual funds. Wow. Wound up in banking, became a bank manager. That's cool for I don't know, way too long.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

And then in 2015, no, yeah, by 15, I knew it was getting bad. 16, 17, I had to get out, took a leap of faith, quit, started teaching writing to public school students in New York City, sixth, seventh, and eighth graders on how to use words to express their emotions and step their fists. That was that was interesting. Yeah. That's a whole interesting podcast. Yes. Then COVID happened, they shut down the schools. I wasn't actually a teacher, so I didn't get paid. So now I'm like, oh shoot, what do I do? Yeah, getting paid's important. Getting paid's kind of important. You know, I had two kids, a mortgage. So then you start writing. I throughout that time, the the benefit of that job was I only had like three groups a day, but I was in the school the whole day. So I started writing my own stuff. So I put out my first book, put out a second book, and then once COVID happened, panic just like everyone else. I started joining every networking group, mastermind group, like anything I could join to be like, can someone help me make money?

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

And I wound up meeting a gentleman who was already an Amazon best-selling author. He was the guy who ran the group. And he was like, I need another book. I just don't have time. Like my business is doing so good because he was in IT and the whole world was going remote. Yep. He was like, So you're gonna write it for me. And I'm like, what? That's so wild. He's like, is this a term paper? Basically, I like I forgot all about that part of my life. Yeah, he's like, I don't know if you've ever seen the 40-year-old virgin. Oh, yes. So there's that scene where Jonah Hill goes in and he wants to buy the whatever it is and she won't sell it to him. Yes. And he's like, I don't understand. I have money. You have what I want. Why can't we just do this? Make a deal. So he had to explain it to me like that. He's like, You know how to write books. Yes, I do. Yes. I have money. Yeah. You write me a book.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

This is like caveman talk here. It really is. It's like, you have money, yes. I have I have writing, yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Like, oh my God. Kind of like us. The next thing I know, it's history. He's like, here's my notes. How are we gonna do this? And I learned through the process of working with him. I I think I did a pretty good job because he's the one who told me to set up a business. That's when Pen for Hire started.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Yeah, 2017 is no 2019. That's what I have here in my notes.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Referred me my first couple clients, and um, it's just been on a progressive uptick since. It's that's in I mean, that's not that long ago. It feels like an eternity, but you're not gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

But it's really not. I mean, the in fact, also to how much you're into it now. I mean, you're in it. I mean, I feel you are. I mean, you so how many books are you writing with somebody at a time? Six to ten. Six to ten at a time. At a time. Wow. Yeah, I think you had said to me, I think that's what you told me. Yeah, when I asked you, I think early on I had asked you some of those questions just because I was curious. And six to ten. So, and these are all, are they all all those books that you're writing at one time with somebody? Are they vastly different, or do you try to keep it like in like a realm of that you understand or not understand, but that makes sense to you or you feel comfortable with?

SPEAKER_01 8:31

There's really only like two topics that I try not to write about. Yeah. Well, one, I don't like to write about finance or strictly because you did it and hated it or what? Because I hated everything. And and I think I because the book wouldn't turn out good. And there's too much risk of me imparting my own emotion, feeling, knowledge of like that's not good. The book's got to be the person's. Um but otherwise, like quantum physics,

What Ghostwriting Is Really Like

SPEAKER_01 8:55

medical, anything that's super technical and gonna bore the hell out of me. I didn't start doing this to be bored. That's why I left my actual job.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

I I can't even imagine writing a book for somebody like that. I mean, there's no way it'd be fun.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

No, no. Yeah, quantum physics. I mean, really? I mean, that would be so boring. I took a cybersecurity project one time just because person was highly referred and it was almost like I would be insulted if I didn't take it.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Like a referral for a house. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I wanted to grate my face on a cheese grater for most of the projects.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, that's not good. It's not a good feel.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Not a good feel, not a good look either.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Thankfully, I didn't do it, but oh man.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

So, yes, so that is incredible. So 2019, and it's called Pen for Hire, and you're doing this pretty much it's full-time. This is your full-time gig. I mean, this is what you do. And you're very good at it. I mean, you know what's really cool, Hugo, is that he he always made you feel comfortable on nothing I said was stupid. Nothing and and if I wrote something down and and I was like, eh, what do you think of this? He would say, Oh, okay, well, yeah, maybe let's try it this way or whatever. But I never felt like because I'm not a big English, you know, guru or anything like that. I I know what I like to read and know what what I like to uh talk about. But it was just neat that he he took it and kind of just you know just brings it down into where it needed to be. And uh what I said, ghost doctoring, right? Yeah, I would I would give him a paragraph and I'd say, you you gotta work on this. Like this is basically what I want to say, but you gotta ghost doctor this because it's not they're not saying what I want to say.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Well, and in all fairness, I don't think Brad's giving himself enough credit because it didn't really take a whole lot of ghost doctoring. Sometimes it was just changing a few words or starting a new paragraph. Yeah. I've had some people who it's it's just word salad, and I'm like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

So is that so let's go there. Is it times where you're like, Jesus, I'm writing the whole book? Like the guy gave me one sentence for this chapter, and I'm writing the whole chapter. Dude, what do you say then? Do you say, uh, dude, I don't have enough content. You need to give me more.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Well, yeah, that that's always the like the problem is when they don't stop talking about things that are completely irrelevant and off topic because I did that a lot. No, not so much because we still got done and in almost.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Yes, we did, yes, we did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

It's it's the complete tangents of like, you know, when I was six, and I'm like, this this isn't going in the book, this isn't even relevant to your book. And you can't gently bring them back. So in an hour call, they've talked about the the part you're writing for maybe eight minutes.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yeah, not good. Yeah, no, that's not good. That's where it struck us. And then what about just and the and then I have a ton of other stuff here, questions. I hope you're okay with that. But you know, what about the the person that is not respectful of your either your time or respectful of what you're writing, or is just not nice. Have you ever had that?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

You know, very, very, very few and far between. Again, the beauty of working for myself is I don't have to you can fire them. Yeah, and I don't have to take the project to begin with if I if I sense like, ooh, this is gonna be a problem. Yeah, the respect of time that that does come up, unfortunately, more often than I'd like, just because my clients are thought leaders, they're business people, they're they're busy. Yeah. So I I try to take that with a grain of salt. There's only been two clients out of over 50 projects where I've had to either go back to them or the publisher who hired me and just said have to come to Jesus talk with them because we've had six cancellations and I can deal with cancellations and reschedule, but when they're constantly 10 minutes before our call.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Not cool. No, that's not respectful of your time because this is what you do. This is what you do for a living. Right. Now what I mean if you have somebody else backed up then too to go, you know, it's yeah, not cool.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

And and it's a different mindset for me to sit down and write versus talk with somebody. So if I have an hour blocked and now you don't show up, I can't just easily snap my fingers and say, okay, I'm gonna go work on something else. Like I'm in a different headspace.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah, because you've already you have that time situated for that. So there's some stuff that we we talked about just a little bit before we got on here, and and I think we should get into it right away, and then we'll get into some other questions I have too. I have some some uh interesting questions. So AI, we talk about this all the time. We talked about in the book that that we wrote together. Let's talk, let's tell what the book's called, and then we can get into that. The the human advantage is what we came up with, and it's genuine curiosity, deep connection, and being fully you in an AI world. That's that's that's what we came up with for the title, and really excited about that. But let's go, because we talk about AI, let's go into AI when it comes to ghostwriting. Okay. Two things. There's always a positive and a negative. Okay. The positive you told me, which is just amazing, you showed me pictures just recently, is there that in the illustration world of children's books, which you are getting into more now than you were before,

AI Illustrations And Children’s Books

SPEAKER_03 13:35

is the illustration part is just fascinating. So tell me what that means for you, and how did you get into trying to get, or why are you getting into children's books now? How did that was like a natural progression or something?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Or I started mentioning it to you off camera, but one of my very good clients who I think we've done five or six books, he's got three other all business books in the works. We've been working together for almost four years. Oh, cool. One day was just randomly like, hey, I know you guys don't do children's books, but I wrote a series of 12 children's books. My grandkids are me and my grandkids are the characters. Twelve. Twelve.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah. And as yeah, that's that's incredible. And he had been writing it over a period of years, so he had a folder with all of these books. And it the more we wrote his other books, the more he was like, I want to do something with this.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

So he was like, Can you point me in the right direction? And I had always kind of wanted to get into children's books. I've got kids, like sure. But the illustration part, right? Finding a good illustrator who can draw well, who's affordable, who can meet a timeline, like all three of those together. Yeah, it's it's it was just never worth the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

Right. Because there's no real there's not a lot of illustration in the books we do. Correct. So you're not that's not really part of your that's not in your wheelhouse at this point, but now it is.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Well, now it is because I said, you know what, he's such a great client. I tasked my assistant with going out and saying, Hey, can you look into what options we have to help him get this done? Interesting. And she came back to me and said, Hey, I found a great AI illustrator. They'll they'll take if he provides pictures of himself and his grandkids, they'll take it, they'll run it through their AI, and they'll turn them into Pixar characters. And it follows the story. And it yeah, so basically once they create the image that matches their likeness, yeah, we then just go and write the story of the story's written, then just have the character poses and the action match what's going on on that page.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Unbelievable. And it's good. I saw, I mean, I saw firsthand what this looks like. It's well, you know, Hugo, you deal with a lot of this stuff too. Hugoes into mus uh music, into illustration and videos and things like that. And it's incredible. It really is. And and and there's a positive, a really nice positive AI in your industry. Now, the other side of it, like I told you before we started recording, is my first step into writing looking at writing a book was was a little you don't know what to do, you don't know where to go. So of course I went to AI and I took a couple of my not just the quotes, but I had a lot of notes that I had written. I think I shared some of that stuff with you when in the beginning. A lot of notes I'd written since 2017 or 19, whatever it was. And I just put them in the AI and think, oh, this is gonna be great. It's gonna write, it's gonna write a whole paragraph or a whole chapter for me. You could put it in, and it writes like maybe three or four paragraphs off of that, and then that's it. And then you're reading the paragraphs, you're like, okay, this is all over the place. Like there's no, there's no rhyme or reason. It just basically takes it kind of takes in your information and pukes it out. It's the best term I can use for this. Pukes it out onto the table, but it looks really nice what it puked out, kind of. Yep. It's the way it that's the way I fell. So I did that for about 20 minutes and realized that this isn't gonna work. Do you find that in in like do you find people that are they think that you're the same as AI?

SPEAKER_01 16:52

I don't think I they they think I'm the same as AI.

Why AI Writing Falls Short

SPEAKER_01 16:55

They think that AI is better and cheaper until they realize, yeah. And as I I mentioned earlier, there's there's hallmarks of AI. Like someone gives you a manuscript or a chapter. I can read a paragraph and be like, how much of this is AI? Like, level with me. And and it's not just the obvious M-dashes and the other like M dash. What do you mean M dashes? You know those line dashes that you use instead of a comma? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

AI loves that.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Loves it. There it at least three times a paragraph.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

You're kidding me. I have to now I'm learning. This is like CSI.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

This is go in whatever AI you use, and outside of the little cool little emoji things he puts at the beginning of each to make it look fancy. Yes, yes. There's m-dashes all over.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Oh, I gotta like it.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Every paragraph is 50% m-dashes. That's that's sign number one.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

So that's sign number one.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Sign number two, it's all over the place. There's words in there that are just like, where did you come up with that word?

SPEAKER_03 17:47

That's what it did.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Um it was cool for a little bit. And I was like, this is unbelievable. And then I started reading, I'm like, this doesn't read well. Well, look, AI is kind of like WebMD. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

WebMD could be really good for figuring out what that bump on your arm is. But it's not gonna operate on you. Or and if you spend too long, by the time you're done, you got cancer.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

So true. So true. Who here looks up their shit that's something that goes wrong in your body, and what do you do? You you look it up, right? And by the time I'm done reading that, I'm dead. I'm a goner. You're calling your wife like, hey, I'm buying sedimentary plot. I've made plans. I'm like, Jess, I've made plans. I've made plans. What do you make plans to do? Vacation? No, no, I'm I'm going to the confidence. What's for dinner tonight? Because it's the last supper. Oh man, but seriously, it's true, right? If you go on Land MD, you're dying. No matter what it is. It could be a hangnail. I'm done.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

AI is the same thing. Like Google, if you Google long enough, like the world's ending. Yep. If you AI long enough, you wind up with a bunch of words that mean nothing. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

So true.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

And it's Hugo would know this. It's like a computer programming term, garbage in, garbage out. And AI is out there scrubbing the internet. Yeah. So if you're asking it for like, and I've used AI in limited capacity. I'm like, hey, help me plan a trip to Disney. Sure. Things like that. And then you pick and choose what you like. But outside of that, it's out there scrubbing unfiltered the internet. And we all know who contributes to what's out there on the internet.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

All kinds of stuff. All kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

All kinds of stuff and people who are definitely not experts.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

No, definitely not. Wikipedia. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of stuff on there. It's crazy. So the AI thing is that was it. I think it's already kind of come into your industry and it and it's probably getting realized really quickly that it's not going to be something that's going to replace ghostwriting.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

For for it to write a book for somebody, the amount of hours the user has to put into teaching the AI, it's cheaper and easier to work with a ghostwriter and have a more enjoyable experience. Yeah. Because otherwise, by the time you're done with like six months of training your clawed or your Gronk, you're going to be in a physical relationship with it.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah, absolutely. You're so true. Yeah, exactly. You'll probably be getting divorced or something. You know what's really it was really interesting too. I I had no idea what to expect in this process, which I love that in life at 55, when you when you dive into something and you really have no clue what you're getting into. I knew that I had I wanted to get something out that was in me or that was written down with quotes and all these things. And I talked to Hugo about it for many years, and he kept saying to me, When are you gonna write this thing? When are you gonna write it? Keep talking about it. He did it, Hugo. Yeah, it's finally finally there, it's finally there. But but what's interesting is that you were almost like a therapist in a way, too. Do you hear that? That's the way it was. Like I felt like I was on a couch sitting down, like in his office, and he's like, So, Brad, what happened when you flunk first grade? How did you feel? And this is in the book, so you'll know. But but how did you feel when you flunk first grade? I'm like, I feel I don't know. But you drew stuff, you drew stuff out of me that I didn't even realize I still remembered or had still remembered the experience of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

That's actually beyond the the writing is probably the easiest part of what I do because I know how to write, it comes naturally to me. It's all of the other unsung parts.

Ghostwriting As Therapy And Trust

SPEAKER_01 21:05

I I felt like a therapist, not just with you and other clients, a counselor, a priest.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

You know, I I have clients who've been through some horrific stuff, like domestic violence, civil war in Africa. Wow, like just things that would keep keep me up at night. Yeah, because you you become it. Yeah, right. You start you start feeling it. I've got to listen to all the physical details and then turn around and rewrite it in a way.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Interesting. So, and that's that leads me to another question, real quick. Is that as it went on in our process like it would go on in any other person that you work with process, in the beginning, you don't know me from anybody. Okay. And and and we, you know, we kind of get to know each other a little bit just through the first beginnings of the book. And there was one time I said to you, I think there was only one thing I ever said to you of trying to explain how I wanted it to come about. And I think it was really simple. I think I just said, I'm a casual. I want it written in a casual fun. Remember, I said about fun. I want it to be fun. I want it to be casual. And then also as as we started, as we went along with this process, you it's like anybody, it's like any relationship. You know, when you call it your wife or whatever, but there was times where I think you understood faster what I meant or what I was talking about, because you get to learn the person and how they react and what their life was was going, what their life was. Do you did you feel that do you feel that on the ways you're going? Like, oh, I kind of get what he's saying because I know Brad now.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah. And in fact, that's kind of part of the reason I'm so happy to be here today, is whenever any of my clients come to New York or I get the opportunity to meet them, because I spend six months with them. Yeah. Like on a on a very non-sexual, intimate way. Yeah, sure. Getting their entire life in a hell yeah. And then it's like, okay, books done, bye. It's like a breakup every six months, and I'm writing six to ten books at a time. So I have six to ten breakups every six months.

SPEAKER_03 22:54

That's crazy. Is he gonna jump off a bridge before he goes home? I'm just I'm a little worried about it. We've got to keep tabs on you on the way home. Well, there's several bridges. Just don't monitor my speed. Now that I would never judge on. There's no judging on that. The faster the better. That's right. But yeah, so that's interesting. And I and I I kind of felt that as I went along. It was like it was easier for me to explain myself or say, hey, you know, you and what you know what I mean. Just make this a little bit more this, you know, whatever. So it's really, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah, but in the three-month mark, if someone says to me, you know what I mean, and I don't know what they mean, yeah, there's a disconnect.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah, true. Interesting. Interesting. So let's get into you're also an author. I am. Yeah. Which I thought was really cool. And you're also a realtor. I am. Which is so funny. When we figured that out, I think it was a couple weeks later. It did never came up, I don't think, in the beginning. It was like maybe a couple weeks into it. You're like, oh yeah, I have my broker's license. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 23:42

How did we not know this? You know? Well, that was actually the only reservation I had when I got your book plan when I when I they told me who you were. I had to read your entire book plan to make sure it wasn't a book on real estate. Which it wasn't. Because if it was, I would have had to give the disclaimer of like, I might know a little too much about what you're writing about, kind of like finance. Yep. But when it was just like, no, it we're only bringing in the real estate as an experience.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Yes. Because it's what I those are my experiences.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Correct. That's the point where I was like, this is gonna work well because I know those horror stuff.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Oh my god, it's just funny or I'm like, also he chimed in the one time, like, wait a minute, how do you know this? This is interesting. You know, I know what buyers are like, or but no, you've written a couple books. You have the ones that I have that I know about is the um I don't know what was the first book? Because you said that the first book. What was the first book you read?

SPEAKER_01 24:28

The first book was Employed, a career readiness manual.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Right, okay. And is that that was a fiction or is that an actual nonfiction?

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Non-fiction.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Non-fiction. So it's career readiness. So it's it's telling people how to get ready, ready for a certain careers.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

The first part of the book that was how it started. And then I went back and realized when I went back to my own story that the first part of the book was figure out what the hell you want to do.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

And don't let anyone tell you you can't do it, that you can't make money doing it. Because the irony is here I am 20 years later.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Isn't that funny?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

And writing is a career that pays the bills. Now, maybe not the way I thought. My book sales aren't putting food on the table.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

That was meaningful to me, and it was helpful to show everyone else who may potentially want to work with me. Like, yeah, I can I've written my own books. Like, I'm not just saying that I can do it.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

That's that's cool. Yeah, it's almost like a realtor that's renting their home. Seriously, I'm nothing bad about realtors that are renting their home, but but you know, you try to buy a home as soon as you can when you become a realtor because you know, as as that's your thing. Now, up in New York City and things like that, it's it's hard to buy. And there are probably a lot of realtors that rent, and that's all good. But it's just funny, that I always say about rent here. You should buy. So you also so you can have the experience. It's like a car mechanic with a broken down car. Yes. Yes, exactly. Not a good thing. Not a good look. Not a good look at the room.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

No one's coming to your shop when your car's broken down on the side of the road.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

So true. So then you had another one's called was it, should have known? Is that oh that that's my fiction novel. Fiction novel. Okay. And then grow up. Grow up. That is another that was a another fiction, or that's not.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

No, that's not that's nonfiction. That was a book about the 10, I think it was 10 or 12, it's been a while. I mean, I've written way too much to remember exactly. But the things they didn't teach me in college that I was really pissed off about. Because again, I got a finance degree. They never taught me how to balance a checkbook. Wow. They never taught me how to figure out like leasing versus buying a car, how much money you're paying on. They taught me how to amateurize a 30-year mortgage by hand. But by hand, yeah, yeah. With using a scientific calculator, like date myself a little bit, but not like what the impact of how much interest you're paying is and the benefit of doing a 15-year mortgage versus a 30-year mortgage.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Yep. So compound interest.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

The cooking versus going to McDonald's six times a day. Absolutely. So I was really when I sat back and reflected, I was like, man, I they owe me a refund for like half the shit they didn't teach me.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

And you're and you're right about that. There's a lot of things, even at high and in high school we talk about that. There's things that's the basics of life that sometimes we don't learn. You know, because those are the things that have to happen before you can do anything else.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah. If you don't know how to make yourself lunch, if you Yeah, that's a problem. If you don't know how to, I don't know, get from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

And there's a lot of people that don't. It's they're they're very book smart, not street smart. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

If you don't know how to pay for something in a store and make sure you're getting either back the right change.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Oh

Being An Author And Needing Editors

SPEAKER_03 27:10

yeah, that's always a good one. Did you ever give did you ever go to a store with your change with and it maybe it comes out to being like you know $3.57, and then you you give them the 57 cents? Oh my god. They have no idea what they're like, what what what do we do now? Or I don't even know how to do this, you know. And the younger the person is, the worse the guy and your center going, you need to give me this. That's and they're like, oh, okay. I should just say you need to give me $50 back. You know, because I think oh, okay. They're just happy you're giving them an answer because otherwise they're a deer in headlights. That's so true, so true. That's funny. So then you also wrote a real estate book. I did called Get Real: Building Knowledge and Wealth Through Real Estate, which I looked at a little bit. I did not get to read any of these.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

I'm gonna I'm gonna send you a copy of all three.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

I've got that would be wonderful. That'd be great. Because I'm gonna put another shelf up here for some books up top because I think we need to get more books in here. But yeah, so you've written the book, so you've done it. You know what it's like to go through this. And you you obviously don't have a ghostwriter, I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

No, no, I I do see that's the thing. I'm just you said a good editor. Editor. Yes. So I'm smart enough to know that I can't edit my own work. In fact, I don't think anyone, this is my personal belief, but I don't think anyone on earth should ever edit something they've written. Because you don't see it. You don't see it. Your mind reads what you think is on the page.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Or what you meant to put on the page.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

It's not realizing that you left out an entire train of thought like the train derailed at Albuquerque.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Yeah, right. And and now it's not making any sense.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

And now it's not making any sense. And sometimes it's just a word, right? Like you've you've pointed out when you've read what I've written for you, like something about this sentence that I'm not.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Well, because I can tell you're writing so freaking fast. I've seen him write too, so it's really cool, Hugo. There's so he he uses uh Google, what is it, Google Docs? So I can there's times where I go in your nighttime and I see this like that's what I hear in my head, by the way. But it you know what I mean? So I hear I see the line, it's like it's like it's just writing itself. It's like you're like this. No hands, mom. And it's writing itself. But then I'd like to see him go, it goes, and he goes, So it's like it's constantly typing, and then he would he would mess up someone and come back. And then the one time he yelled at me, he's like, You need to get out of here while I'm trying to write.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Because he was he was working on the paragraph that I was working on, like he was trying to fix something, and I'm like, get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

You're not supposed to see this shit. It's like making it like watching the sausage get made.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

Yes, not a good idea. Nobody wants to see that or a hot dog. Nobody wants to see a hot dog get made. So let's go into some of this. I have some other questions here that I think is so author or ghostwriter, which one's more fun?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

You know, they're they're equally fun. If I had to pick, I'm gonna say ghostwriter. Yeah, because I get to meet interesting, knowledgeable people. Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Author, I gotta spend a little too much time in my own head. Yeah, I got it. And that's not a good place to be for too long. There's dust in there and shit.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

I'm a Gemini, so there's a consistent battle in my head.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

That's funny. So that this is the thing that some of the stuff that I came up with that was that was let me see if we can find it in here. I just want to make sure I think I know what it was gonna say. So the part that I think is really interesting about ghostwriting, and and I don't know if I should go in make a comparison with this, but I'm going to.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Go for it.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

I think of you kind of like a surrogate mother.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

And I don't know how, and this is and I'm not making belittling surrogate mothers or people that can't have babies. This is just an analogy that I see. Because for for a couple that can't get pregnant or whatever, because I have no idea how to write a book. Okay? And I had no eye, and I I didn't know how to put my ideas in a book format. You go and help me write this book, you guide me through the whole process, you write the book from my the things that come out of my head. So you're basically carrying the book for me for the past four months. And at the end, you hand it over. Okay? Now you've been in the book, you've written the book, you've listened to the all the stories of going what's going in the book, and the background stuff that doesn't even make it the book because of stories that I've told you that I was like, eh, I don't think we should put that in the book. All that stuff. How is there an attachment? Like I always think of the surrogate mother when all of a sudden the baby now goes to the family that gets the baby. Is there that type of attachment to the book? Or like saying, damn it, that was I put a lot of my I put a lot of good shit into that with that author, and now I feel like I get nothing back.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

No, so you know, I'm gonna give two answers. Do you understand? Do you get the parallel? I understand exactly, and I'm gonna give you two answers. The first is that's the exact reason I don't ghostwrite fiction. Because like fiction, I'm sorry. I your imagination. It's your imagination. If you can't song, if you can get it, isn't that uh yeah? If you can't take what's in your head that you're imagining and seeing, yeah, and right now I'm gonna feel like it's like I your imagination, my imagination. Gotcha. Very good. Oh, that's that's hands off. I will help, I'll I'll I'll I'll coach people, I'll do developmental editing and kind of point out where their plot flaws are. Yes, yes, but I'm not writing your characters out of your head. I'm not creating your dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

That's because then it's actually out of your head.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, now it's like my baby, and I'm not giving it over. With something like this, Dan, does that make sense? The the author, you, your you're fully involved. It's it's all you. I am really just the vessel. Yeah, well Sarah Gan. There you go. Um it's your words, it's your knowledge. I didn't create any of that. Right. All I did was put in words. I helped I helped it make take shape.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

But it's all still yours.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Interesting. Because in my in what I in my mind was what what I just said. I sat there and thought, how would I feel at this moment? And I guess it's just different. You're right. I can see the fiction thing being so different because now you're cre now you're actually helping develop characters. Whereas in my story, the characters are already already developed. Correct. Chad was developed.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

We're gonna get Chad into the book.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Oh, that's who I'm going with tomorrow. That's who I'm going to the beach with tomorrow. Chad is the one going with me, isn't that funny? And he wrote, he read the part that I that we wrote. Okay. And he loved it. He loved it. He's like, I can't believe first of all, he goes, How the hell did I make it in your book? I said, I don't know, but you did. Because it was just something that we started talking about.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

He actually wound up in there twice and referred back to us.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Yes, exactly. Chad made it in the book, which is really funny. Let's just put it, I wanted to say the other thing is have you ever put into words something that you're like, damn, I should have saved that though from my book? But you said the fiction's the only time that you would do that. Kind of answers that question, I think, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, yeah. No, there's uh anything that I've put in someone's book,

Choosing Publisher Vs Ghostwriter Coaching

SPEAKER_01 33:35

it was theirs.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

It was theirs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, so in honest, in all honesty, if I took something that I didn't put in their book and put in my book, I'd I'd feel kind of dirty.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Yeah. And is there ever time when you were like, Thank God, this freaking book is over? If you say now, I just the podcast is over. If he says, yeah, that whole human advantage bullshit, then he's out of here.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Look, I drive three hours to get away from bullshit. Not to drive two weeks. So that should be.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

No, but there are any if there are times you're like, oh my God, or just say to your wife, guess what? I'm finally done with Bob's book.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

So number one, I don't share too much about most of those. I did have there. There's a few clients where if they never call me again, I won't be upset. Got it.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

And that's like any business. It's every business has that.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yeah, they still got a quality.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

They take more from you than you can give.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

That is correct.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Yeah. Yeah. And you feel empty afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah. And those are usually the people who somehow winding up with my cell phone number that I don't generally give out. And it's a guess who has it? An 11. But you've you've never 11 p.m. texted me like, hey, can you look at uh page 30, line three? Like no, I can't. No, that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

It's absolutely ridiculous. So, how long does it typically take to write a book? I think if there's somebody that's looking to write a book, what do you suggest as the process? To find the publisher first, like we like I did, and then that got me to you? Or do they go directly to you from your website for Pen for Hire? Can they start there just and go through you?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah. So I mean it really depends what someone needs. Yeah. So you went directly through the publisher, which is great because they've got the entire team beyond just book production. Yeah. They've got the marketing, they've got the support. They're the ones that are going to get you wide. It's a package, a big package. They're going to get you the wider reach.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

I'm more brass tacks. We write the book. My team will get it edited for you. And then we're either going to guide you to getting a self-puzz doing it yourself, getting your own. So there's plenty of those. Which is plenty of those. Or kicking you over too if you have the budget.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Because they do awk art also. They do. Yeah. And I saw that they do a la cart, which is cool.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

My first piece of advice generally is figure out what your budget and your time frame is. Yeah. If you're someone's like, you know, I I really don't got a whole lot of money to put into this, but I've got the time. That's why I do author coaching. It's very much the same as the ghostwriting process. Where we That's what we talked about author coaching. We talk, we we shoot the sh all the ideas go down on paper, but between meetings, instead of me writing it and asking you to read it, you're writing it and I'm reading it.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

I do not like that one. So don't like that process at all.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

And that's for the people again who one either like writing, they just need some help and accountability, or a combination, hopefully, of that. Because if you can't write, you probably coaching's still not the right arrangement. Um, or two, you know, you can write, but you don't have the budget, but you have more time to give to doing it, and you just need someone to make sure you're doing it. Sure. If you've got a higher budget, then yeah, start figuring out first what is your goal from the project. Most people never make their money back in books.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

I have no, no, no, I have that's not my desire. I had no desire from the beginning. This was not for making any money. This is for getting the things out in my mind that I think will help other people.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

And that's the second part of when you're deciding what direction to go, figure out, and this is what I coach people through on our first one or two free consultations is what is your goal from this project? Do you want to are you making the world a better place? Hopefully, because those are the projects I like. Sure. Are you looking to bring, like I wrote my real estate book for myself to kind of back up my philosophy that your book is your business card? Absolutely. In New York, in Westchester County, there's I don't know, 20,000 realtors.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

So when someone says to me, What makes you different from the other guy? I have a book. I'm like, did he write a book on real estate? Here, here's here's a copy. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Like that's it's like a mic drop.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

It's it's a resume on steroids. It's a resume on steroids. No one's ever gonna read the friggin' thing, but who's gonna remember? There's a guy. In fact, the pages are blank.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Pages are blank, it just has a cover on a back and it's it.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

That's funny. Shh, Brad, you're giving away all my things.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

They're like, wow, this is great. Take it home. There's nothing in the book.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

You know, just pictures of houses. I have joked with clients before that you could probably, like, if you really wanted to run a social experiment, just create a really nice cover, a really nice title, an introduction. And that's it. And the rest of the thing is. And most people wouldn't even realize.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

No, and you could ask someone in three months, what'd you think of my book? And they'll lie to you. They'll be like, oh, it's great. So good. So good. What'd you think after page 12?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yeah, exactly. Nothing. Oh man. Well, we're gonna wrap this up soon. There was a couple other things. Let me see if I covered everything I wanted to. You talked about the children's books, which is cool. And then I think one thing is how does somebody know? You know, I think I I I sometimes I look at uh life and the world and go, how does somebody they have something they feel they want to get out? Okay, like I did. And how do you know when it's it's it's time to write a book? Or do you think there's like a that you should have enough written? You should have you have to have enough ideas, obviously, and enough focus on what you're doing. But there's a lot of people probably afraid of doing it. But I think if they knew about the process that I did with you, there'd be a lot more people writing books.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

I truly believe everyone has a book in them.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

You know, what the subject of that book is, who the audience is, whether or not they have the means. Because everybody has a story. Because everyone has a story, everyone has a story, and from the beginning of humanity, yeah, we've been teaching in stories. Cave, cave paintings, hieroglyphics, campfires, yeah,

Everyone Has A Book And Final Advice

SPEAKER_01 38:55

what the written word, right? Like it's just got it's gotten us to the point we're at today. Yeah. So everyone has something. I think if if anyone's still questioning that, think do you find yourself as someone who people come to for advice all the time? Are people always saying you should write a book? Are people, you know, are are you the most sought-after person in a conversation for whatever? Those are the things that kind of indicate that people like listening to you. And if they like listening to you, you can only speak to so many people at a time. Yeah. But if if you put everything you got to say down in a book, whether you I think it's valuable or not, you never know who's gonna one person could get something out of your book that is life-changing for them.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Yeah, so true. So true. Do you have anything you want to add before we end it? Are you working on any books right now for yourself? I am actually. Are you? I am what what are you gonna tell us what it is or not?

SPEAKER_01 39:48

So there's two. The first, it's funny, the person came to me as a referral to hire me. He had written half a book on self-directed IRAs. Oh, wow. If you're familiar with and it's all about how he used them, he used real estate in his self-directed IRA. Yep. I read his stuff and I was like, Dan, I I I can't write this for you. Like, I can't take your money.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

So he was like, You want to partner on it? And I was like, that's interesting. Yeah. So I said, You already wrote most of it. Sure. Like, I'll impart my knowledge, we'll we'll put it together. That's cool. So that's finishing up soon. It's actually the same gentleman who, because of this book, I decided to get my license in Florida now.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

And then all of this sparked a book I started right after I finished the Get Real book, which is kind of like a property management Bible. Oh, nice. So another real estate themed book, but all of the ins and outs of property management, from the horror stories to the best practices.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

A lot of horror stories, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Property management's is it's a whole different world. A whole different world.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Let me tell you. You you you've been in apartments, you've been in home.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah, I did it for years. When you see the way some people live, it's just like on both extremes.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Oh, yeah. Almost like, do you really need a $4,000 toilet with a heat seat?

SPEAKER_03 41:03

But then you see people that are sleeping on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

And then you see people that are sleeping on boxes piled high because they're hoarding the last 90 years worth of their stuff.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, it's so cool. Do you have anything for him, Hugo?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

No, just pretty intrigued. That's pretty cool. Pretty intrigued, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Pretty interesting topic. Well, thanks for coming down here, buddy. I appreciate it so much. It it has been a great process. You have been awesome to work with. Uh, I'm very excited about getting on to the next phase of it and getting the book out there. And uh, hopefully by the end of the year or next year. Um, if anybody is looking to write a book, I suggest they get in touch with you. Uh Matt Harms, it's Pen for Hire. And that's if you look that up, you'll find it. I mean, it's pretty simple. And we'll have it on our socials when we air this and we'll be able to get in touch with you. All right.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Amazing. Brad, this is this is well worth the ride. Um, it was like a condensed four months just in 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Exactly. It's so true, so true. So thanks for not for coming down. I appreciate it. Same here. All right, there you go. Matt Harms, yeah, pen for hire. Uh, if you're looking for Ghost Rider, if you're thinking about writing a book, please look him up.

Where To Find Matt And Wrap-Up

SPEAKER_03 42:05

He makes the process comfortable, easy to do, and to uh it's just a great process. I really enjoyed it. And uh, if you're looking to do that, get in touch with him. All right, that's about it. We'll see you next Thursday at 7 p.m. All right, talk to you later.