Filling the Pipeline: Hiring and internships

High Reliability, The Healthcare FM Podcast is brought to you by Gosselin/Martin Associates. Our show discusses the issues, challenges, and opportunities within the Facilities Management (FM) function.  

In this episode of High Reliability,  we have excerpted an episode from the Healthcare Facilities Network. This YouTube Network, created by Gosselin/Martin Associates,   aims to increase awareness that the rewarding and stable career of healthcare facility management is open and available to all. However, an influx of new professionals is needed, from the trades to the management level. 

So in today's podcast, we speak about Filling the Pipeline. Filling the Pipeline was the genesis of the Healthcare Facilities Network:  To perform outreach and publicize that rewarding careers exist in Healthcare Facilities Management.  

Our panel covers a great deal of ground, beginning with a simple question: Is the hiring process used in healthcare today able to meet the demands of the 2023 labor market? Their answers may surprise you. 

In the second part of this podcast, we look at internships and some challenges organizations face in attracting students.

Our thanks to today's guests:

• CJ Brown, Women & Infants Hospital, Providence, RI
• Steven Call, Ph.D., Washington State University, Pullman, WA 
• Clay Ciolek, Facilities Manager at Providence Health & Services, Olympia, WA 
• Lamar Davis, Shirley Ryan Ability Lab, Chicago, IL 
• Christine Pirri, Bassett Healthcare, Cooperstown, NY 
• Maryanne Richards, Massachusetts Maritime Academy, Buzzards Bay, MA 
• Nancy Vanasse, Massachusetts Maritime Academy, Buzzards Bay, MA 

 

@BassettNetwork @massachusettsmaritime @ShirleyRyanAbilityLab @HealthcareFacilitiesNetwork @carenewengland@ProvidenceVancouver @WSUPullman @providenceswedish@asheaha @IFMAGlobal @HealthcareFacilitiesNetwork

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

Hello, welcome to the High Reliability Podcast. I am your host, Peter Martin, president of Gosselin Martin Associates. I thank you for clicking on the podcast today and listening to it. Today's podcast is called Filling the Pipeline, and it is excerpted from a show that we recently recorded for the Healthcare Facilities Network. The Healthcare Facilities Network is Gosselin Martin Associates' YouTube channel, that deals with all things healthcare facilities related. The goal of the Healthcare Facilities Network, like the goal of the High Reliability Podcast, is to inform and to educate folks that this career is out there. And as you've heard me say many hundreds of times, perhaps, We want to expand and we want to promote this opportunity to others because we know we simply do not have enough people who are coming into the profession. So this is a filling the pipeline roundtable that we recorded on the Healthcare Facilities Network. And you will hear me a couple of times refer to the Healthcare Facilities Network. That is why. But we recorded this roundtable with a cross-section of folks from the industry who will be named in a couple of minutes. But Some of them from the world of academics, some of them from the world of human resources, many of them from the world of healthcare facilities management currently in director role. And the goal of this particular episode was just to start to take steps to help promote this discipline. And this conversation went really in a direction I didn't expect. We talked a lot about the hiring process and if the hiring process that's used in 2023 is still effective, due to all the changes in demographics and employees and mobility and how people get their information. So pretty much the first half of this podcast, we'll be talking about the hiring process, talking about career fairs and are they effective, talking about getting to or reaching people where they are, where they get their information. One of our guests called current hiring processes antiquated. So we talk a lot about the hiring process. And then from there, we transition into internships and the issues with filling internships that exist. We also talk a little bit about salary. We talk a little bit about work-life balance. So I think it's a good discussion with a really well-represented group of people. So we've called this particular episode Filling the Pipeline. I hope you give it a listen. I also hope that you go to the Healthcare Facilities Network on YouTube. It's, again, the Gosselin-Martin Associates page there. Please become a subscriber. What we would like, again, is just to promote, and we need to reach people. We need to reach people who are young. We need to reach people who are mid-career. We need to reach people who have some tread on their feet because we need more people in the world of healthcare facilities management. It's too critical. of a discipline to be suffering from what could be coming down the road five, six, seven years. So anyways, thank you for listening to this podcast. I am going to stop talking and the next time you hear me, you will hear me introducing the Healthcare Facilities Network. Thank you so much for listening to the High Reliability Podcast. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_07 3:34

Hello.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

And welcome to the Healthcare Facilities Network. I'm Peter Martin, president of Gosselin Martin Associates. I'm very excited to be joined today by a distinguished group of guests who you can see in the gallery presentation before you. We will go into introductions for each of these folks who have been kind enough to join me this morning. This is the first episode we have done of filling the pipeline. And as you know, I mean, I've said this in pretty much every video. I don't need to say it again. The goal of the Healthcare Facilities Network, the core goal, the reason we started it is to fill the pipeline because we need people into this profession. And I think the group we have in front of us today is a great way to kick that off. Just a couple of details. I did a little bit of research As I said, you folks, most of the people who are watching us, you work in healthcare facilities management. You know it can be difficult to hire people. You know that people are retiring. So rather than just list some of the statistics that we've got from Healthcare Facilities Network, I just bumped around the internet, found a couple of stats, and I'll kick it off with that, and then we'll do the introductions. But from now until 2030, and this is from seniorliving.org, 10,000 baby boomers each day will hit the retirement age. So 10,000, so that's like a third of Fenway Park every day are going to retire. The CBO, the Congressional Budget Office, projects the potential labor force to expand by a mere 3.6% between 2022 and 2031, one eighth of the pace in the 1970s. Over the following decade, that growth is projected to slow even more to 2.9%. So pretty much a stagnant labor pool coming up over the next couple of decades. That's from Business Insider. They also said in an article about last year, 2022, by one estimate, 29% of managers were 55 or older. They also said 40% of CEOs were 55 or older, but we're not dealing with CEOs. Last statistic, and this one is sad and kind of sobering. But another consideration is the rising mortality rate among working age Americans. Since 2010, death rates have risen for both young and older adults, driven in part by drug overdose, alcohol, suicide, diabetes, and obesity related to health conditions. COVID-19 further exacerbated this trend, spurring an estimated 58 deaths per 100,000 people, in the 15 to 76 age group, 15 to 64 age group, excuse me, in 2022 alone. That was from the Population Reference Bureau in January, 2023. So certainly some, that's a sad statistic, but everything in every industry is pointing to not enough people for the next couple of decades. And folks, you're experiencing it. I know that you are. So with that said, what I would like to do though, is do some member introductions so you know who is here on this call today. Each person, I would just ask who you are. I know who you are, but people watching don't know who you are. Who you are, what you do, and how long you have been doing it. You don't have to give me your ages. How long you have been doing what you've been doing. Clay, can we start with you, please?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Certainly. Good morning, Peter, and all, and appreciate this opportunity to share. My name is Clay Silek. I'm the facilities manager with Providence Health and Services, and I'm in Washington State. So I have a hospital responsibility that extends and includes into grounds as well as some fleet, but day-to-day operations.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

Thank you, Clay. Clay is out on the West Coast, so it's an early... warning for him. I usually run into Clay once a year. We run into each other, although haven't the past couple of years at the Ashy Annual. So, Clay, I hope to see you in August. Let's go. I will try. I hear you. We'll skip me. How about we go down to Mass Maritime, please?

SPEAKER_08 8:06

Good morning, everyone. Mary Ann Richards. I'm the Director of Career Services here at Massachusetts Maritime Academy, and I've been here in this role for 14 years.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

And good morning. My name is Nancy Vanas. I'm also in Career Services. I actually work with our facilities engineering students, as well as our energy systems engineering students. And I've been at Mass Maritime for, gosh, three and a half years now, but I've been in higher ed for a lot longer, 20 years. I've been in over 20 years now, I've been in higher ed,

SPEAKER_04 8:40

so. Thank you ladies. And Massachusetts Maritime, so Mass Maritime in Bourne isn't too far from our office down here in Walpole. And so that is a great environment to get people, potential candidates into healthcare facilities management. We've visited a couple of times and just a beautiful campus right at the beginning of the Cape Cod Canal in Bourne. So if you're not familiar with the location and the education, both worthwhile to check out. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

Christine, you want to go?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Absolutely. Good morning. I'm Christine Peary. I'm the Chief People and Diversity Officer here for Bassett Healthcare Network. I've been with Bassett for about nine and a half years, and I've been in human resources for about 20 years.

SPEAKER_07 9:26

Thank you, Christine. Steve, how about

SPEAKER_06 9:30

you? Yes, hello everyone. Steve Call, professor at Washington State University in the School of Design and Construction. You'll notice the palm trees behind me. I'm actually in Florida today at the ASHE chapter conference here. But started my career actually in the Texas Children's Hospital doing maintenance supervision and was a director of facilities. in the Chicago area. And so I did that for about 15 years in healthcare facility management and eventually transitioned into academia. So my research focuses really exclusively on hospital facility management, facility optimization, workforce planning. So I kind of have that practical background as well as an academic research background in this world of facility management. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Thank you. And as we know, and Steve and I did a podcast, because I've done podcasts with a lot of you folks on this, so I appreciate that. We did our podcast in November, I think, and Steve does a lot of research on salaries and competitiveness. And so I'm looking forward to talking about that. I've never been to Washington State, though. I've been to Washington State. I haven't been to your university. I'm sure it's just as beautiful as the folks down there at Mass Maritime.

SPEAKER_06 10:49

It is. Anytime. Come visit.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Thank you. I might. I'll tell my wife. Lamar, you please.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Morning, everyone. Lamar Davis. I am the Executive Director for Facilities Engineering and Support Services with the Shirley Ryan Ability Lab here in the Chicago area. I've been here for seven years now, and I've been in the industry for 30 years. Can't believe I can say that right now. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

Thank you, Lamar. You know, Lamar, had you not said located in Chicago, I was going to say you can probably tell where Lamar is located by looking behind him. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Is that the socks up top? No, the white socks are hiding behind me, but you see the bears there.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Yes. So those are all bear

SPEAKER_02 11:44

logos. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:45

I need new glasses. Last but not least. Thank you, Lamar.

UNKNOWN 11:50

No problem.

SPEAKER_05 11:52

Good morning, CJ Brown. I am the Director of Facilities Engineering at Women and Infants Hospital in Providence, Rhode Island. I have been here for just about five years and in the field for 13 years.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Great. Thank you. Thank you, CJ. And CJ, before you jumped on, I was just talking a little bit about your unique background with your nursing background and kind of your transition. So I think that This is a great group of folks. We had a couple other people who will be part of this group. Unfortunately, they weren't able to join today. As you all know, schedules these days are crazy. But I think there's a nice diversification of folks. And I wanted to start with a question, again, just to the group. And do feel free to talk to each other and ask questions. I received a text just honestly this morning. I always think that when you watch TV, pretty much everything is staged. But I really did receive this text. this morning. And it was by a person, a colleague who's interviewing. And the text says, so my team chair had three interviews this morning for a position. They had one no-show. They had a person who said they would be there by 8.30-ish. And they had a third who showed up in jeans and a hoodie. And the text concluded with, What is the matter with these people? They want a job. And so given what our first question here is, I thought that text was really interesting because the first question I want to ask this group, and again, our goal is to fill the pipeline. We can't do that overnight. And it's going to take a cross-section of people. But I think about this often because it's what we do here. But I wanted to know, do you feel... that the current process and the current system of hiring employees is conducive or works in the market of 2023. What do folks think about that? Does the process, does the system of hiring people still work? And I don't know what we would go to, but I just, as a baseline, what do you think? Christine, let's start with you, only because. You're VP of HR and diversity, and I know that you're passionate about this. So I hope you don't mind me picking on you first.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Not at all, not at all. And I feel like I have been on the receiving end of those messages, those texts, those emails a number of times. And I don't think the current system and process works. And as I've been thinking about this leading up to this discussion, sort of also thinking about how, if it doesn't work, how would it change, right? And so I feel like there are a number of different factors at play. I think, at least in my space, we are required by either New York State or the federal government to make sure we get certain information during a hiring process, which can be cumbersome. You know, when filling out an application, so shortening applications, creating short applications that then feed into a larger application as people progress, looking at things like that. But also identifying, I think some of the standard career fairs also don't work. You know, I think we're trying to pivot and move to a model where we're meeting candidates where they are. because I don't know, I would be interested in your other group and hearing from them how they feel about sort of how they perceive it, but holding career fairs requires people to take time out of their day that they probably don't have to then go and attend and visit you, right? What makes you so special? And I would say to them, Probably nothing. So how do you insert yourself where they are? And then it's learning their patterns. And then I think that gets into a bit of AI and figuring out where you need to set up a kiosk. I know some other organizations do this really well, but you set up at a Starbucks somewhere that's on the way for someone who's going into work so that you catch them while they're stopping and grabbing a coffee rather than having them dedicate time to come to you.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Interesting. I was going to ask you, when you said meeting people where they are, so that meeting people where they are, Starbucks would be an example. Meet them where they get their coffee in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think we really need to think differently. But also then, I also think what I'm seeing, not just as the head of HR, but also as a mom of kids now, one entering high school in the fall, they're not exposed to anything and they can't get exposed to anything because of these age requirements. And so I'll just give an example. My daughter, she's interested in becoming a vet. Well, what a perfect time for her to shadow various different opportunities in a veterinarian office before she goes into college to see if that's right for her. They won't take anybody until they're 18. The opportunity's gone. By then, she's in college and she's beginning to figure out what she wants to do. So I just sort of give that one example because I'm sure it's across the entire healthcare spectrum, right, where there's opportunities where we could get in front of get in front of kids and show them the opportunities we have available before they're already out into the world.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Sure. Well, thank you. CJ, I think you had something to say.

SPEAKER_05 17:54

Yeah. I do think the whole hiring process is extremely antiquated. I mean, you look at applying and it asks you to upload your resume. So you upload your resume and then the next step is now retype everything that's already on your resume into this full six-page application process. And then you do all that and you go through the process and then you go through the whole interview process and then you get to the last day and you start talking salary.

SPEAKER_07 18:21

And

SPEAKER_05 18:22

then you realize, hey, you know what? Where I need to be isn't where you can be. So now we've just wasted each other's time for the last six months. Because we all know hiring doesn't happen overnight. Figuring out a way to be more upfront and more... technologically savvy with the application process.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah. That's one thing I've, I agree with you on the salary and we won't, we don't have to go down that lane, but I know that, you know, from our perspective here, I'll always put the salary up front. Really? Once you tell me you're interested in a role, I'll let you know what the salary is. Cause like there are some barriers that you cannot overcome. I mean, if you want to be at X and I'm off by$40,000, you're not coming. So, I've never understood that waiting until the end. I mean, you know, if they're replying, they're interested. Yeah, that's. Or even, you

SPEAKER_05 19:19

know, on the opposite side, you know, as the hiring manager, I go to HR and say, all right, here's the person's qualifications. Can you let me know what the salary will be? And they come back and they give you, all right, you can go in this range. The couple of times I've offered positions to people, I say, look, I'm not going to make this be a used car sales. Like HR offered me this range. I think you are worth this. And this is my final offer. Like this is all I can do. I hate that when you're applying for a job and it's like, well, I really want this. And it's another five day back and forth on trying to get that salary that you want. Like there's nothing that feels good about it.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

I like the analogy to buying a car.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Does anybody else on the call have the trade pay transparency law in effect? Or is that just New York State? I think it's

SPEAKER_05 20:11

coming to Rhode Island, but I don't think it's happened yet.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Washington State has it. Yeah, this is Clay. Washington State changed just recently to where we had to post a range. And I got caught up in that just recently with a hire, but... uh i actually think that that helps except that you know that may raise some expectations on candidates who aren't qualified but nevertheless it still um put something out there ahead of time that is uh is uh kind of starts that conversation that yes that otherwise tends to wait till the end

SPEAKER_07 20:59

marianne

SPEAKER_08 20:59

i was just going to add um to the comment about the career fairs, Christine, and working together. I think if we're talking about entry-level positions, which I know is different than many of the positions you have, but if we're looking at entry-level positions, from our point of view, we have two career fairs a year and we try to make them very valuable for the employers who come. But it does take a strong partnership to do that. If you just come for your first time to a school and they don't know who you are, the students may or may not even stop at your booth. So there's a lot of kind of prep work first to have a partnership with the school. And I would say you only want to work with schools that have a good result for you, where you do hire interns and alumni and graduates so that your name is recognized on campus and it's a good match. And I hope it would be worthwhile, but it does take work to figure out what's the right schools to go to. And then the other thing is educating students at a young age, which I know that the problem with they can't go to a vet tech, for example, the shadow, but freshman year, we have a section later, we'll talk about more, but Educating, say freshmen in college, for us that would work. Coming to campus, not necessarily the career fair, but to speak in a class to explain what career opportunities are there in the healthcare industry for facilities engineers. They don't know what it is. They don't know what career paths there are. Get them excited about it so that then when you do come to the career fair and they're sophomores and you have internships, then they recognize, oh, that's a hospital. There are jobs for me there. I'll go learn more about it. So that the kind of, we try to get things early, freshman, sophomore year, rather than wait till they're seniors. They may or may not even apply for a job with you. Right, right. A couple of thoughts that

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I have. No, I think that's so important, right? So, and I hope I didn't imply the career fairs were not important at all because that was not my intent. I

SPEAKER_08 23:11

know, I know that,

SPEAKER_01 23:12

yeah. But I think it's an example of how, from a recruiting perspective, there are so many different avenues that we need to think about. And I don't know about anybody else on this call, but certainly my talent acquisition team is trying to do so many different things. And it feels as though there are so many avenues we need to tackle. to get in front of candidates to then grab their attention and get them interested and show them what we can do and show them what we can offer. It feels as though you're trying to tackle all of it without this huge army behind you to do what you need because to your other point, gathering the data behind what has been effective is also another benchmark and data point and something that you need to keep tracking. because you don't want to expand the limited resources you have with partnerships that may not be working in the way that they're working. And then you need to take those resources and maybe develop a different partnership with that partner, not cancel the partnership, but maybe there's a different pipeline opportunity that wasn't working with whatever that partnership was before. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 24:31

so really what I wanted to do is I kind of wanted to piggyback on what you're all saying is that, you know, by the time you might be meeting with potential candidates, you know, for example, the facilities engineers. Yeah, sure, they can all work in a hospital, right? But they're being bombarded by other different industries. So they're exposed to so many different industries that, you know, that they could potentially, you know, start down their careers with. So, you know, just power plants, universities, banks, commercial buildings, there's just so, the list can go on and on. And so, when I work with my students, I kind of break down like the certain companies that say come to our career fair, I'll break them down by industry to help them kind of map it out and who they wanna speak to. And I think that's also a deterrent as well. And I don't know, I just think that there's so much competition even within the field.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

Within, piggybacking on that and maybe, Steve and Marianne and Nancy, do other industries do, I don't want to say a better job, but do other industries start marketing themselves to college students at younger ages? I guess what I'm saying is, are hospitals and healthcare a little bit behind in that competition to market to those young kids? Steve, let's start with you, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_06 26:00

Sure. And let me back up a little bit. I do think it's important to differentiate when we're talking, you know, trade or engineering specific roles versus management roles. And so we're here today because as we all know, we're saying this, we're all experiencing headwinds regardless of industry, but specific to healthcare facility management, you know, there's a struggle to find, you you know, enough, and then to find competent talent to fill these roles. So, you know, the question you earlier posed was, you know, are you all experiencing, you know, is what we're doing, is what we are doing, has it worked? Is it not working? And what my research is showing is that historically, the path into healthcare facility management was through the trades, right? You'd hire someone, they'd be in a tech role or a trade role, A decade later, you'd promote them into a management position. That's the way that it's been done historically. And so I think step number one is for us to realize that that's not broken. That's still a valid source for talent, but it just is not supplying enough talent to fill this wave of folks that are retiring. So that number one, I think if everybody can embrace the idea that we've got to do things a little differently, And that has been a struggle within healthcare, frankly, that culturally it's a struggle to shift and say, well, how can we find talent that haven't grown up through the trades? And that still hasn't been fully embraced. Even if you do embrace the idea that, for example, hiring students from college to move into facility management role, even if you embrace that idea, which by the way, that's one of the reasons that the General facility management field outside of healthcare has really addressed this attrition challenge. A decade ago, everybody in FM was dealing with this. Generally speaking, in the FM world, this is no longer such a big problem because they have embraced the idea of hiring college students. Facility management programs have grown exponentially throughout the country. Students are being hired almost at 100% placement. So there's huge demand for FM students. But in health care, that's just simply not happening. And I have a number of it. Every 100 facility management jobs open in health care, only three of them are students hired for those roles. So they're just simply not leveraging that that growing resource that's been shown to be effective outside of Healthcare FM. One of the main challenges, like I said, even if you embrace that idea, is that healthcare simply is not paying even remotely close to what students can get in other industries. So it's a huge roadblock. And that's why, and frankly, on top of that, they're not paying as much as other industries. And the job is more difficult. I've been a healthcare facility manager myself. The compliance issues, the life safety issues, the 24-7 operations, it's a challenging role. So there's a couple of really, really key roadblocks. And I think it's valid to talk about the application process is challenging and those sort of things, which is true. but we really need to focus on what are the core roadblocks that are preventing the industry from addressing this attrition challenge. And it really comes back to the shifting or the openness to looking at other ways of recruiting people outside of just the trades. And secondly, open to the idea that the healthcare industry needs to start paying more competitively. So those for me are the two key issues.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

So Steve, just a clarifying question on my end, and I agree like the pay thing, we can get to, too. I don't know if we would in this episode, because that's a huge, you know, that's a huge element all to itself. But you are saying, though, that other industries outside of healthcare do a better job embracing and hiring in those younger folks into their environment at a younger, at an earlier point in the process. Is that fair? Yeah,

SPEAKER_06 30:12

yeah, absolutely. So an example is if I'm going to make an assumption that those who are on this call, their organization probably has a requirement for five to 10 years minimum of trade experience before they'll be eligible for a management position in their organization. That's a pretty standard job, right? A college student is not going to have that. And so that's just step number one, like adjusting these expectations of what what an entry-level facility manager looks like. And I'm not talking about hiring a college student for a director role or a VP role. That's out of the question. But even entry-level type roles, which again gets complicated because entry-level roles really only work for large systems. You've got these small hospitals where you've got a lead tech and a director. There is no entry level. That's a different ballgame really when you're talking about rural settings as well. But yes, in general, industries outside of healthcare have accepted and embraced this growing pool of facility management trained students. If you want to hire an accountant, you go to an accounting school and that's the traditional process. I will add one more thing. So healthcare isn't embracing college students as a recruitment source. They're not embracing the idea that they need to pay competitively. And so they bring in you know, they are able to fill those roles, but they're usually filled with folks that are trade heavy, you know, that are technically sound, but don't necessarily have undergraduate education or some of those data analysis, communication, you know, business type competencies. And so it actually clogs the pipeline because they have people in entry-level roles that aren't prepared to move on to mid and senior level roles And so it just clogs the pipeline because the folks that are already in the profession aren't adequately trained and ready to move on to the next level. So there's, you know, there's a consequence to not bringing in folks that maybe have some of that, you know, higher levels, higher level business skillset.

SPEAKER_04 32:23

So let's go Lamar. I know you are passionate about this topic. You and I have talked in the past. I know you're, You do a great deal of succession planning with staff and people who've been under you. What are your thoughts on process and where we are? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah, I'm squirming in my seat here. I figured you would be. Everybody is saying such great points. And I don't want to copy what everybody's already said. So here's what I want to add new to it. and you and I talked about this over the phone, when we were all kids, right, we were in the backyard playing, right? We were either playing police officer, firefighter, doctor, you know, teacher, you know, we were playing one of those careers, right? I don't think any of us here were playing, oh, I'm gonna be a facilities manager. So I think what we need to do on top of what everybody else has said, we have to, to Christine's point, We got to get to the high schoolers. We got to get to the eighth graders. We got to get to the seventh graders. And we got to get them playing in the yard, being facility directors, right? Or being carpenter or being, I mean, all of it. And I don't know what the answer to that is yet, but we have to make it attractive to young people so they are doing that. I oversimplified it, but I think that's what we need to get to.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

I think Nancy and Marianne, I think when I was down there in June, you told me in June, and I think it was January because it was cold, it was the wintertime. You told me something that I thought was interesting. And I don't know if you remember what you told me. But you mentioned that organizations come to you now. And when I say organization, professional organizations come to you and say, what are you doing? And correct me if I'm paraphrasing incorrectly. What are you, Mass Maritime, doing? to reach out to high school students, to reach out to those younger kids, to let them know that your career path exists and that your college exists so that you were able to create that pipeline into their industries. Am I recounting that to you correctly? Do organizations come to you and say, hey, what are you doing to reach out to younger kids?

SPEAKER_08 34:38

Well, we're trying to work with more of them. And the reason is enrollment. So the admissions office here does that. They work with middle school students and junior high students and schools guidance counselors to talk about mass maritime and what we have to offer them and what a degree in this field might mean when you graduate. These are careers and we do it selfishly so that we can get more students. We're doing it for enrollment purposes, but it does help because we don't want students that don't want to go into one of our seven disciplines. And we would love to have partner employers work with us to help get the word out. And it's selfish for them too. They want more in pipeline to hire, but they need to go through college first to be ready to work for them. So we are working with some employers. We'd love to work with more at that early age group. I mean, our office works with employers that are looking for interns as underclassmen and then as full-time employees when they graduate. Is that kind of what you were inferring?

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_08 35:53

Let's

SPEAKER_04 35:56

go a little bit to kind of that intern route, if you don't mind. For those of you who have hired interns, and I guess I'm looking at the, you know, CJ, Lamar, Clay, you guys are in the role now. Are interns an avenue you've explored or are there obstacles to bringing interns in? How viable are interns and do you use them?

SPEAKER_07 36:18

I've thought about it many times, especially with, you know, I'll throw a little plug here with the New England Healthcare Engineer Society.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

You know, we've been talking a lot lately, again, you know, fill in the pipeline. How do we recruit and retain membership? And I've been pushing that we need to partner with Mass Maritime and a couple of these other institutions in New England to make a pipeline for their interns where they're pre-set up. And they know, you know, Women and Infants Hospital has one intern position every year. You know, Butler Hospital has one. And how do we get that rolling to make it easy? Within facilities,

SPEAKER_04 36:59

CJ, you have one intern position per year? I would like

SPEAKER_05 37:01

to.

SPEAKER_04 37:02

I don't have it yet, but I would like to get there.

SPEAKER_05 37:04

where right now it's such a roadblock to get it set up. No offense, Christine, but with HR and all the paperwork that needs to get done, by the time you get it started, it's January. And now it's halfway through the school year and it's just getting that initial ball rolling to get it done, I think.

SPEAKER_08 37:24

We'll help any organization on our end kind of develop a good, robust co-op for them. And it does take time. but I know Nancy's prepared to talk about the value of our, we have a cooperative education program that's mandatory. She'll talk more about why it's so valuable for both us, the student, but it's also super valuable for employers for filling the pipeline, which is exactly what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_07 37:51

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 37:52

Lamar, let's go to you first, if you could talk about that intern question.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Yeah, so as you know, Peter, I've, had some success with interns over the I'd say past 10 years or so, I've hired a couple. A couple have left me and moved on. So I actually echo CJ's concern about nothing against HR. Every year is getting harder because of labor laws and all the kind of things you gotta do. And again, nothing against them. I know they have to comply with the law. But my other challenge is, again, I would love to tap into the maritime school as well. However, we're in Chicago. the interns may live in the New England area. So now I got to put them up, right? I got to put them up for housing and things like that. So that's been my challenge because here locally, we only have a couple of colleges, but even there, they're two, three hours away. So now I got to put them up, right? So that's the issues. And the students have had challenges with coming up with the money for the board for the summer and so forth. So I'm a strong proponent of it. I just wish I could tap into more money to handle some of those soft costs. Clay.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Yeah. Thank you. Going on the comments that Steven call made, I was glad to hear that there is programs. I used to hear a few years ago that there was just a few facility FMs that could transition easily into health care. around the country, mostly seeing that exposure from ASHI. But so that's encouraging. But one of the things that my system is 53 hospitals. And with that could come a lot of bureaucracy and the hiring process, but also we uh have had the experience of a program where the company dedicated and made a decision that they were going to have a small cohort of interns these people would be brought on as actual full-time employees and made the investment into salary right off the get-go with them

SPEAKER_07 40:11

now

SPEAKER_00 40:12

they tended to be graduates uh and we had One that I was worked with in the last year was just phenomenal. A mechanical engineering graduate, but the guy could do business analytics like there was no tomorrow. And that just helps us in so many ways. And the acumen of technology and those kinds of things. But what I think is the difference is that we've also had an intern program, which is just Busy work. It actually takes more time and less value to have something for these people. But it's just night and day differences to the programs that are set up. So where I think the commitment can be made, because as was mentioned, you have experience that's wanted, whether it's five or 10 years experience, but how to get that. I see these internships in a very targeted way to help cover some of that gap, just depending upon what interests they are when they finish the program. And the intent is that, okay, we're going to have somebody go through like three years of an internship and then still have them as a valuable candidate for wherever they might see their best interests align with the organization. So these individuals are on a rotation. They're going to different hospitals. They're going around the country. Uh, and it's, uh, it's been a very, um, I feel dedicated and, um, I can't help, but think it will be successful in the end, especially based on, um, the interaction that we've had, but the, the local kind of like, uh, fluff and buff internships for just those that, um, They haven't even necessarily graduated yet or are still seeking college level. It's like they're not sure. So what we throw at them doesn't necessarily, they don't have necessarily the expertise to help us with some of the busy work that we may need. That's been one successful thing that I've seen. And hopefully more of that can happen because I don't know how else when you have someone who has a degree in something, But yet the position as a facilities manager entails someone having that, knowing the other hospital support services, what they do, how it interacts, other trade understanding, that kind of a thing. It's a matter of time and there will be a gap unless you've got someone who is just willing to absorb and work on it.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

Christine, not that you need to, and not that you represent HR across the United States and for Clay's 50th.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

I certainly hope not, considering I've had a couple of call-outs

SPEAKER_04 43:15

on HR. I'm not able to put you on the spot, but I know that you are always willing to share your opinion. Thoughts on like kind of the, not just, you know, I'm not talking, you don't have to speak specifically to BASA, but internships in general and some of the barriers that exist. Do you find that to

SPEAKER_01 43:33

be the case? I think Clay is right in that what I have seen from hiring managers throughout my entire career is that it creates more work to partner and have this internship where the person isn't completely contributing to the work that has to get done. And at the end of it, you've invested this time and then they are either going off back to college because the internship is over, so they're not continuing with you, or they're going off and maybe working somewhere else. So I do think it's a fine balance in finding the right internship that provides exposure, experience, and opportunity with also providing us, the employer, value in getting the work that needs to get done done, right? Because at the end of the day, we have a lot of work and we don't need extra work, right? When at the end, it's not providing value. If I could just ask a quick question, I've heard a couple of people mention the five to 10 years of experience or in the education and the requirements. And it sounds a little bit like that's a pain point. And has anybody on the call had any experience or have you tried to push back on that with your HR department?

SPEAKER_05 45:02

Yeah, so I'll say, so my most recent hire, my manager, I hired him a year ago. He only had two years of supervisory experience. And, you know, my HR department, they were like, hey, it's your hire. Like, you have the qualifications that are built into the generic job description. But if you feel like he's the right candidate, then we're not going to stop you.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

My second, I've had three jerseys and I went over 34 years. So my previous employer, they tried to set a bar that they wanted managers, directors to have a master's degree. Well, that was okay for me because I qualified for that. But nevertheless, it became apparent pretty soon that they weren't attracting enough people. And so they basically rescinded back down on that. And So I don't really see that changing. I will see a lot of things where we are, if they want someone who has a degree in architecture or mechanical electrical engineering degree, background, that kind of a thing. So I don't know how much, I mean, that would very much help in facilities management. I don't know how much of that is a barrier. for those that don't have that than something like CHFM certification might help fill that gap. But yeah, it was interesting when employment would seem to be more booming and then things changed and they had to back down.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Yeah, it's been my experience as well. We've eased on the requirements and hoping to kind of put some things together as Clay mentioned. you know, if you don't have the years and experience, you know, do you have the CHFM or we've even required, you must, you know, get to CHFM within three years of employment, you know? So we're doing a combination of things that kind of ease on that experience.

SPEAKER_04 47:13

And almost dictated. dictated by the market and some of those statistics. And I think, Clay, you just said it. I mean, when it was booming, you could be selective. Not booming anymore, unfortunately. I want to... We're coming up closer to the end. I do want to respect everybody's time. This is interesting. You create or you kind of think of a topic you want to cover. And I honestly thought we'd get further than this particular area, this particular... And that's a good thing. So... Not a complaint at all. I enjoyed it. And what I'll do is create, at least for this group, kind of a meeting notes because we want to continue to push forward. But what I'd like to end with, and Steve and Marianne and Nancy, let's just start with you and folks, feel free to chime in, the folks outside of that education. We talk a lot about, and we hear it everywhere, kind of generationally and generation differences. And I don't want to create an us versus them, because we actually have a generations group that I'm going to be working with to, you know, younger folks to talk to them about, listen, how do we get people like you who are involved? How do we make this field attractive to your peers? And how do we get more? So this certainly is not a is not a generations us versus them. But I wanted to ask, is today's student, you know, we're talking about internships, And students have expectations. I see I have four kids between 17 and 22. And happy birthday, Katie, it's your birthday. So I see how they're different than what I was. But relative to internships and attracting, the expectation of today's students, the groups that you work with, how has it changed? So I'm going to ask that a little bit. How have their expectations changed from maybe when you were growing up? And are their standards, are their expectations different than they were 10 years ago, 15 years ago?

SPEAKER_06 49:08

I can start. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 49:11

Well, I'm sure you'll tell us what you see at work. So for us, for parents who go to work, right, hopefully it's the same thing. But the younger generation that we're working with now, the data shows that what matters to them in the world of work are things like, obviously salary does matter, but it may not be the top thing anymore. They want to know what the professional opportunities are for them, that they have opportunities, what the career growth is for them within the company and within the field. They also want to feel valued and feel like they have an impact somewhere, which I think is really wonderful with this industry that you're talking about. They're going to have a huge impact. So you can kind of sell that as a selling point, I think. They also want to have a good work-life balance. That's very important to them. It has been for a while. That's not a new thing. And camaraderie at work. Community and a sense of camaraderie in addition to salary and income. Anyway, the other last thing that is talked about is they wanna have some, so know that they're being socially responsible so that the company has some sense of social responsibility. Those are kind of some of the key buzzwords with this generation going to work.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

Thank you, Steve.

SPEAKER_06 50:36

Yeah, what I'll speak to is, is the FM profession has matured and evolved over the years. And so if you look at what the typical facility manager looked like decades ago versus what it looks like now, that's changed. So traditionally, there was a huge emphasis placed upon technical experience. And now that FM role is becoming more of a business leader, understanding finance and data analysis and strategy, And so those competencies of what's expected of a facility manager, there is no, in my opinion, perfect fit right now because you have half of it, the technical expertise hasn't gone away, but also this idea of the business skills has really been added to it. So if you have a younger employee or a younger candidate, typically they're not going to have a lot of trading experience, but they're generally going to have an undergraduate education in facility management, many of them. And so you have to, as Clay mentioned, in your fellowship type programs, you may have to focus on on giving them or helping them gain that trade experience versus an older candidate traditionally needed to usually go back to school and get some of those business skills. And so it's just a matter of understanding what the strengths and weaknesses are, what competencies these folks are missing. And traditionally that was more of a business. skill that needed to be developed. And now it's more of a, we gotta help people develop maybe some trade expertise. So that's the difference I see and kind of the generational differences between facility managers.

SPEAKER_04 52:20

Thank you. Clay and Christine and Lamar and CJ, what about you? What are you seeing on the ground?

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Well, I see a need that doesn't, it seems to be all the more important and It's been talked about very well in the past in that succession planning, but I don't see it happening within current organizations necessarily. I intend to give my leadership at least a year advance notice. Just recently, having hired a key position for our central power plant operations, from a time that it took a vacancy in mid-December, it took me pushing uphill amongst about six different individuals with an outsourced service for HR talent acquisition to finally arrive at being able to make an offer yesterday. So that's, in essence, that's almost approaching six months and that's not for a facilities management position. So why not couple that with, get somebody in here ahead of time who's committing to taking over, succeeding, and shadowing for at least six months. And yes, that's an overlap on the budget. But as we've described, there's so much to it that some people may not know what they've gotten themselves into. We really want to make sure that there's a good easing of easing the way for someone to leave and someone to come in that has gained respect and all of that. So I really see that to be an important piece, but I don't hear it talked about much anymore.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Great. Yes, I can add to that what Clay's saying that the challenge I'm seeing is the younger folks really are emphasizing a work-life balance. They say, I don't want to do what you do. You're crazy, right? The 24-7, the this, the that, the stress. I try to tell them, I say, yes, it's stressful, but it's rewarding. I try to sell up the you know, the upsides. And they said, no, I remember that time they called you when you were on vacation. It happened one time, but, you know, it gets escalated, you know, it happened 20 times. So the challenge has been, you know, getting them to see that other side and they're really focused on the work-life balance. And they're not going to respect that, but, you know, they just said, no, I'm just, I'm happy right here, you know, project manager doing this particular role.

UNKNOWN 55:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Well,

SPEAKER_04 55:17

that

SPEAKER_02 55:18

was,

SPEAKER_04 55:18

It's interesting and I wrote that down because we do we hear work life balance all the time and one of the episodes I would like to do at some point is, does this career. I mean it has to allow for work life balance. But how does it because like you said you are you're accountable, all the time so knowing that work life balance is a thing and folks are looking for it. How do you balance your work life balance. with your management responsibilities, because it's got to be difficult to do, but can be done. I want to just lastly, CJ, Christine, anything to jump in on work-life balances. You guys can go on that, but

SPEAKER_05 55:55

I'll spin off that one real quick. Cause obviously, you know, you know, my history and work-life balance is one of the most important things for me. You know, I have three kids, you know, 10, eight and five. So nothing is more important than going home and having dinner with them every night.

SPEAKER_07 56:11

And

SPEAKER_05 56:11

that is something that I struggled with early on in my career. And then I made it a priority. And unless water is pouring through, the building's on fire, nine times out of 10, everything can wait till tomorrow. And I've made it a purpose where a certain time of the day, I shut the computer down and I go home. It was much easier when I was a manager because I wasn't on call 24-7, one week on, one week off. And when it was my week off, for the most part, I was truly off. And then once you get to that director role, even when my manager's on call, I'm still on call. So it's a little bit harder, but it's still doable and showing it and, you know, leading by example, you know, family, family is always first. And at times work comes first, but you still need to remember that family's first and having the leadership that supports that is what makes it truly possible.

SPEAKER_04 57:05

Yeah, that is true. Last word goes to Christine. It just worked out that way.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

This was all great conversation. I love hearing it. And Clay, I think your points about succession planning, I would love the opportunity to do more succession planning with my leadership team, but it feels as though the tenure of of our leadership or even those individuals who would be the plan for succession, the turnover is as such that it doesn't lend itself to do the succession planning that I think we probably all would love to do. Work-life balance is incredibly important. And I think we're seeing that coming out of COVID more so, now it's more so more than ever with the generation now entering the workforce and they've seen sort of everything we've all been through. So learning to adapt to that. And then what I think might, we had mentioned a couple of times about pay and how healthcare lags in pay typically. And something that I know I've just had the pleasure of learning about from my time in operations is the reimbursement that we get for doing and performing the services is certainly not what any other industry would have to tolerate. So the fact that we do not get reimbursed for a lot of the services we perform, that makes it incredibly challenging then to have revenue to then turn around and spend on our staff. So.

SPEAKER_04 58:48

Wow. All right. Final word. There we go. There's a lot of great content here. I'm going to pour through it and we will have Definitely we can dive into some of these. I wanna thank Clay. Clay, I always have a hard time with last name. Clay Silek from out in Washington. Marianne Richards, Nancy Vanass from Mass Maritime. Christine Perry from Bassett Healthcare. Steven Call from Washington State University. Lamar Davis from the Shirley Ryan Ability Lab. And CJ Brown down the road at Women and Infants in Providence, Rhode Island. Thank you so much for joining me today. We're gonna speak again if you guys are willing to. I'd love to dive into some of these issues. I knew it would bring up a lot And this is why this issue can't be solved in just one broad stroke. So I thank you for your time. I thank people for tuning in. Peter Martin from the Healthcare Facilities Network. Thank you very much.