The Real Purpose of Succession Planning in Healthcare Facilities

Succession planning is rarely a smooth process. According to Paul and Ryan, it involves life vests, knee scrapes, back stops, and sometimes avoiding the metaphorical bus altogether.

In this episode of Healthcare Facilities Network, the conversation reframes succession planning as something much bigger: business continuity planning. Rather than simply preparing the next leader, Paul and Ryan explain why healthcare organizations must ensure hospitals continue to operate effectively when key players are suddenly unavailable or gone.

The discussion dives into the leadership challenges that often prevent organizations from planning ahead, including fear, ego, and stubbornness. Paul and Ryan also explore the importance of mentorship, accountability, professional presence, and creating environments where future leaders are allowed to grow through experience without allowing mistakes to become catastrophic failures.

As Ryan explains, one phrase Paul often uses captures that philosophy perfectly: “I’m gonna let you scrape your knee and not get hit by the bus.”

Whether you are actively building future leaders or simply thinking about the long-term stability of your organization, this episode offers practical insight into developing people while protecting the future of the hospital.

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Today's Guests:
👥 Connect with Paul: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-deviller-chfm-3626955/
👥 Connect with Ryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-gagnon/

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Transcript

Opening And The Stakes

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So he was going to meetings that I really had no business being in. I mean, I I didn't understand anything that was going on, but at least I got exposed to it. And that goes even into back you know back to HR. We we did a kind of a changeover of the department in the last seven years. And early on, Paul was meeting with HR and just saying, Hey, Ryan's gonna sit in just so he can hear what's going on. And it's invaluable. I it was did it feel like I was doing two jobs sometimes to an extent because I got all his meetings to the end of the day, and I'm coming in early and staying late to get my stuff done. But if you put the hours in it, it did pay dividends, and then just seeing it, you're you're ready. And then in addition to that, we talked about FaceTime and you know first impressions and all that stuff. After you've been to all these meetings with these higher-level folks and talking about more complex things, they start to build a trust in you just because you're there.

SPEAKER_04 0:55

There's a major crisis facing healthcare facilities management. We have aging employees, aging buildings, and aging infrastructure. We've created the healthcare facilities network, a content network designed specifically to help solve for these three pressing issues in healthcare facilities management. We bring on thought leaders and experts from across healthcare facilities management, all the way from the C-suite to the technician level, because at the end of the day, we're all invested in solving the aging issue. Thanks for tuning in. Look at our videos. You will find that is a theme across our content. This is the Healthcare Facilities Network. I'm your host, Peter Martin. I appreciate my two guests joining me today because we are going to be talking about succession planning. Big topic throughout the industry, and I can think of no two better people to appear on this succession planning talk than my two guests, Paul DeViller, Ryan Gagnan. Gentlemen, before I kind of go into it, can you both introduce yourself, who you are, what your roles are, where you are. You can do it better than I. Paul, why don't we start with you, please?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Absolutely, Pete. Thanks for having us. Uh so I'm Paul DeViller. I'm the director of Plan Operations, Engineering and Maintenance for Leahy Medical Center uh in Burlington and Peabody, part of the BILH system. Um, I'm currently the um the most recent past president of Nehees. Um, and I'm very glad to be here and look forward to the questions.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Thank you, Paul. Uh my name is Ryan Gagnan. I'm the assistant director of plant operations maintenance here at uh Leahy Hospital Medical Center, again, part of Beth Israel Health. Um currently the treasurer of Nehee, so getting getting my feet wet in the executive report there. Again, thank you. Uh thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Paul, Ryan, you both have been on before. Um and one of the reasons I wanted to have uh both these gentlemen on for succession planning is you just started. Paul, director, Ryan, assistant director. And Paul, I've told you this before. You and I think probably known each other since like 2014 when you were up at Peabody working at that location. And you have always struck me um and you come across as just you know, uh you kind of do anything, right? You roll your sleeves up. I remember the first first time we talked, you talked about grabbing the grabbing the uh broom if you had to. And so every time we talked, you would always talk about education, succession planning, bringing up the others. You've been very focused on that. Uh Ryan, you as well have been very involved from Mass Maritime, kind of giving back to that next generation, trying to set up a curriculum to draw people in. So with these two gentlemen working together, we want to talk specifically about succession planning and what they're doing at Lahey to account for the future.

Dressing For The Table

SPEAKER_04 3:52

But before we go there, and I've talked a lot and I will stop talking, we were talking before the camera roll that Paul and Ryan are shaming me with clothing, the way they are both dressed today with suits and ties, which looks very professional, looks very good. Your organization still wears suits and ties in the FM department. That's part of the expectation.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Correct. We we become smarter when we get the extra napkins. Um, so I think that's where, you know, so it's just kind of one of those, you know, I learned that a long time ago, you know, coming up from different places where um just being in the rooms that we're in and and having the the people that you're trying to communicate to. Um it seems you know funny, but like you know, wearing a suit when them wearing a suit kind of puts you on the same level, I guess, rather than you know, a maintenance guy talking to the CEO. Um, and so it for whatever reason, it just kind of the the message comes across more serious. And and so I just something that I adopted a long time ago and it maintained that and kind of you know asked my team to do the same. And I think, you know, I'll let Ryan speak to it, but I think he's he's seen it as well. So he's you know, I'm not I'm not making this up. It you kind of just see it as it as it happens.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, for for for me it was uh I bought into it right away because you know, starting at I was 22 as a manager and it you know, act the part, it it gave me some credibility along with a beard to make me look a little bit older. And uh he looked at it a little bit differently, especially when you're you know brand new to the role and right out of school. So yeah, I bought into that right away.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

You know, as we kick off a succession planning discussion, I think though, dressing the part and being at the table and being accepted by peers very early on, that is kind of a passive component of succession planning, right? If you don't look the part, then you're not gonna be seen as able to do the part, I don't think. Do you gentlemen find that? Absolutely, I do.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yeah, I do too. You can't just dress the part, you have to you you get into the room, so at some point in time you have to have some substance to what you're saying. So like it doesn't this doesn't fix everything. Um, but like it's like and sometimes in order to get into that room, you have to fit the part, you have to, you know, you have to fit the part, but like ultimately at the end of the day, like you also have to be able to like deliver on the information that you need to deliver on.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yes, yes. And yeah, all right. I think I think it just creates a great first impression. Any new C-suite or who are any anyone new coming to the building, even a nurse manager that I'm introducing myself to for the first time, it creates a good first impression and puts them at ease for again, like Paul said with the extra napkin and it puts them at ease a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

And it's funny because it's just like even you know, Ryan and I will, you know, we'll be rounding and we'll go look at you know, just different departments and we're looking at some of the work that's getting done, and you hear, you know, uh-oh, the suits are here, you know, and then and then you laugh and it's like, don't worry about us, we're fine. But it's just but that's kind of it automatically like they automatically think that you're even higher up the food chain than you are just because you're in a suit. So um I think that that you know, it sort of allows us to, you know, almost um level the playing field a little bit with some of the various departments.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

Yeah, yes, especially when facilities isn't always seen as uh as a peer to those clinical departments, which is uh unfair in a topic for another one. You know, you guys just jarred my memory a little bit. You were talking about being seen as dressing the part, and you might think that once you're already hired and you've established yourself in an organization that, okay, they know I can work, they know I'm a good person, I can rise and move on in the organization. But it's funny, I was talking to a gentleman, this was a couple of months ago, actually, now he had worked at his organization for four or five years. He was going for, he was at the supervisory level, wanted to go to the manager level in another department, but a parallel department. And he went to the interview where he knew a lot of the people who were interviewing him, and he was dressed, I don't want to say down, but business casually, he wasn't wearing what you guys were wearing. And that was part of, he didn't get the role, that was part of the feedback that he got was his dress, too much informality. And it's so it's it's very interesting. Like you you said first impressions, Ryan. And I think first impression, whether you're going to an organization for the first time or you're interviewing, you have to dress that part, right? To to to move up.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Back in the day, like even if you were going for like a basic entry-level job, like you dressed up. Like it was that wasn't even part of the, you know, you you you had a shirt, a tie, you know, like you're and that was like entry-level. That was even in the trades. Like if you were going for like an electrical job, like you put a shirt tie on and went met, you know, met the foreman of the company. And over the last you know, 30 or 40 years, it's kind of really changed to the point where people like legitimately believe that they can kind of show up and you know, hats on backwards and you know, and you know, you know, non-college shirts and stuff, and then and you know, and that really does it sets the stage for, you know, all right, well, how serious are you on on the position? And um, you know, if you can't make an investment in in your appearance, like why should we make an investment in you to, you know, to work for us?

SPEAKER_04 8:50

I tell my kids all the time, and you know, my kids while they're a little bit older than your oldest, and Ryan much older than yours. Uh when now they're going out interviewing, and I tell them that all the time. And fortunately, they listen to me on that one. You know, they dress up, and you guys know this because you're dealing with younger generations. That's half the battle, right? I mean, just appearance and manners and all of that stuff that's kind of gone by the wayside, it gives you a nice advantage. Like you said, you gotta be able to uh pull through on it, but that look is important. And right now I may go get a suit coat because I feel very out of grasp of you two gentlemen. But no, let's let's jump into uh uh succession planning. But again, I

Identifying Talent And Early Mentorship

SPEAKER_04 9:32

I do believe that appearance is part of that succession planning. Paul, we'll start with you though. Um when did you realize that Ryan might be kind of part of your succession succession planning? What did you see in him? And I guess how long have you two been working together? Let's start with that. How long have you been working together? And and at what point did you say to yourself, listen, this guy may, you know, I may be able to implement succession planning with him?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Uh well, I mean, we've been we've been working together officially for like seven and a half years. Um, and where I was working at Peabody before I took over the role here as director, Ryan was interning under uh Paul Cantrell. So we had kind of informally kind of crossed paths here because I was helping Paula with some things at that time and Ryan was working on those. So we started to work together there. Um and then when I came on board, um, was right pretty much around the time that Ryan was graduating. Um, so I think I think you might have still been like an intern for like the first year, Ryan. And then after that, it was, you know, um, you know, he showed interest and he was passionate about healthcare and and was, you know, engaged in all the things that we were trying to do. Um, and it wasn't um, you know, I think what I found so far with a lot of the uh mass maritime cadets coming out, or especially there, they're very, very, very focused in on the engineering side of things and the mechanical side, which is important and you want that, which is why they're so valued. Um, but Ryan actually like took a liking and a and and an interest in the actual behind the scenes part of it, which is like the HR component and hiring, firing, how to develop, you know, crews, how to develop, you know, standards, how to, you know, uh, you know, set up um um a schedule and like manage that. So like he he was very much engaged in that from the beginning. So it became um you know really easy for me to like spend a lot of time with him over those times. Um, you know, at the very beginning, when you know you know, when you take on a new job, it's it's it's a long day for a long period of time just to catch up. And Ryan was, you know, Ryan was in those trenches with me from the get-go when I was coming into a new a new job with a staff that you know had been um institutionalized, you know, and and probably needed you know some change, and you know, and that that becomes very difficult, you know. And as you're aware, like you know, people are afraid and intimidated by change. And when the new guy comes in and starts to make, you know, we've never done this for 30 years, and you're telling them they have to. Um it's it's not exactly a pleasant experience for for anybody. Um so Ryan was, you know, Ryan got a chance to witness that uh right from the get-go. So I think that was where I was that was what impressed me about him was that he was he was it wasn't just about you know the co-gen, it was about all of the other things that you know make a a manager or a leader successful.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Interesting. Uh, you know what you said, um, Paul, that Ryan showed an interest in the HR component of the job. Ryan, I want to go to you on on that particular thing. You're so you're coming out of mass maritime, you're young, right? And you you you you haven't really, I mean, you've been in the workforce, but you've been in healthcare. What was it about the HR component that interested you? It's it's just interesting that the the HR part.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, so in in hindsight, I think I looked at it as a tool. I mean, I I came in 22 years old, green as can be, and I had the challenge of winning over and also earning the respect of guys that have been here for 30, sometimes 40 years, that all of a sudden there's a new guy coming in. What does he know? So even just learning that HR side of things and kind of how that game worked, and it it helped how it taught me how to speak with staff in an effective way and then kind of gain that trust and respect.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

That's really that's really wise, Paul. You know, when when we're trying to identify uh kind of that younger generation to to take over, to succeed, to put them in place. What do you think from your experience? And you know, you've lived this for a while now, but from your experience, what might people in your position overlook with somebody in Ryan's position? Overlook or not value? Does that question make sense to you? Like what might they miss that they shouldn't miss?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Um yeah, I mean, I think that's a it's a it's a pointed question because I think it could go in a lot of

Business Continuity Mindset

SPEAKER_00 13:52

different ways. I think um, you know, one, and you and I have had this, we've we've actually done some presentations on this together, but it's like I I don't really look at this as succession planning more as it is business continuity. Um and I think that, you know, at in my position, I have a responsibility to the organization that I'm that is paying me to make sure that, you know, in the event for whatever reason that never mind firing or you know, leaving for you know, under bad circumstances, that I, you know, I can't come to work tomorrow for a family reason or you know, something happens and and I I'm I need to build a team behind me that can actually run it without me. Um, and I think to get to more to your question, I think that's where ego gets in the way of a lot of people because it becomes almost like uh, oh my God, if I teach him everything, then they don't need me. And then so people purposely don't look into it because it's almost like, well, I got here by myself, I don't need to give them, they'll figure it out. Someone, you know, and uh, you know, or you know, leadership makes a decision, I don't get to pick that. So when I leave, they'll decide who they want. I don't tell them who it is. And I don't disagree with that. I just think that like as a as a manager and a mentor and someone that's looking at succession planning, my succession planning for Ryan isn't even for this job, it's for a job. He should be able to like like working for me, I should be, I should be able to give him or help him gain the tools and and the experience so that he can go anywhere and work successfully. It's not just about him taking my seat. Um, so I think that that's what people overlook. It's kind of it gets ego and you know, uh like fear of, you know, if I if I make him, he's he makes less money than I do. And if I show him everything, then they don't need me anymore. And and that's a those are all valid reasons. This this stuff happens. But if you're if you run on fear, you know, I I don't think you can ever be successful at anything. So I think that, you know, you have to, and and again, I feel truly valued by this organization and have for you know 25 years. So I don't I don't really sit there looking over my shoulder thinking they're they're you know actively engaged in trying to replace me. Um, but if they do, they okay. I mean, that's their prerogative. And and hopefully, you know, I've done my job at and what they're paying me for, so that when, you know, when and if I do move out, they Ryan can fill right in and they won't miss a beat and they won't, you know, they'll miss me for about seven minutes and then everything will work back to normal.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

It's funny you say that. I was talking to somebody this morning. I always hate when I say I was talking to somebody, but I truly, because I always thought when people would say that they were making things up, but I really wasn't. I was talking to somebody this morning, and it was kind of about that, Paul. Um, this person had moved on from an organization to another organization. And we were talking about kind of the past where the person went from. And I was like, listen, they forget about you in a week too, like they have to. Like, so if you're thinking about them, they're not thinking about you. Like you said, you're gone in seven minutes, right? It's the next person up because the patients are still coming through that front door or you just got to move out. Uh I love your thing, uh, your thing, your your your distinction between business continuity and succession planning, because it really does kind of reframe how you look at the issue, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Uh yeah, I mean, I to me, I think that's where succession planning is and it's great, and that is important and and for you know, it it puts context to certain things, but this isn't just about like promotion, like my promotion, Ryan's promotion, or anybody else's promotion, it really is about setting up the organization so that they have three, you know, they're two, three, four levels deep, um, you know, in the event of um, you know, something happening so that like when joint commission comes in and organi, you know, like any, you know, MDEP, anybody comes in to take a visit, OSHA, that I'm not the only one holding the key, that there's other people in here that can that can hold the fort down in the event that I'm on vacation or incapacitated for some reason, you know. Um, you know, and I think that that's where um you know it gets it gets lost a lot amongst a lot of people that that's what this is you know truly about. It's not it's not just about like you know, building Ryan up so that he can get a promotion, it's about making sure that the organization is is safe, that you know, we can run under any any sort of situation at any given time, no matter what the situation.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

I'd add that that doesn't just stop at one person, too, because Paul and I both mentioned we're on the Nees board. If we're both at a conference, we need to feel confident that there's someone else here that if a DEP or someone showed up, we're confident that it's being handled before either if we have to come back or not, it we we have confidence being done.

SPEAKER_04 18:34

So from your perspective, Ryan, when did like you know, so you're coming in, you guys have been working together what you said, seven and a half years roughly, Paul. Um, when did you know in your mind, when did you shift from kind of the mentor to hey, listen, maybe this is a career path, maybe maybe I'm a potential successor. How does that how did that change happen for you? And does that change how you look at your role or do your

Learning Under Regulatory Pressure

SPEAKER_04 18:58

role?

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's I think it kind of clicked within the first year. We had some some issue with uh um regulatory agency, and like Paul said, this is more business continuity than anything. But he was dealing with some home or whatever it was, and I was he trusted me to kind of grab the bull by the horns and kind of run with it. And he was there for general oversight, but me along with the safety officer at the time kind of handled it and joint commission came back in and everything ended up being fine. And after that, I it kind of clicked where I need to be prepared to do these things. If you know Paul wins the lottery tomorrow and leaves, I need to be prepared to step up or at least have the opportunity to step up. Um, so that's kind of when it clicked for me within that first year. And I it's unfortunately fortunate that you know, regulatory or whatever comes up all the time, but it's a great training mechanism. Um and you know, you you learn the most during disasters. So that's that that was a great learning opportunity for me, and kind of when it clicked. And then I mean it certainly changed how I look at the role as more holistically an entire uh department, not just okay, I'm handling the maintenance folks right now. I don't need to worry about the regulatory, I don't need to worry about other things. It it made me start digging into different aspects, even though it was like drinking through a fire hose for a little while. It it paid off that you know, just getting exposure to everything.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

So that's interesting. Um that you you said kind of the role click to a whole list a holistic you and that clicked pretty early on for you when you're coming in, and you and I I think we've talked about this before, like you're a um you know, coming out of mass maritime, you you're a you're a good commodity, right? People kind of want to hire you guys coming out of the maritime. There's lots of avenues you can go. You got into healthcare, you stayed in healthcare, and then you saw kind of the bigger picture. What was it that made you think of this kind of like as a career? Because we're trying to, you know, this again, you're trying to develop curriculum. We're trying to get people like you in. But for you, what what click that you're like, you know what, I want to stay in this and do this and and advance?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yep. Honestly, it was working with folks like Paul and Paul Cantrell, who is you know there before Paul, and seeing Paul has said to me before, DeViller has said, you know, we're not just here for a job, we're not just here to make money. If you want to do that, we can go somewhere else and probably make more because it's healthcare. It's when I come to work, and I talk about with my wife all the time, it's funny, but when I come to work, I feel like I'm actually doing good. There's patients in this building, our building is the patient. If that air handler isn't working or you have firewalls unprotected, or things like that, it can impact our patients and staff here. So I I truly feel uh have purpose coming to work. Um, and yeah, I was told that early on is hey, try to look at it this way, and it that that really stuck with me.

SPEAKER_04 21:54

That's a that's a key point you just say there. So so you directors of FM, you leaders of FM, and some comes in like Ryan, kind of paint that picture, right? That what you're doing makes a difference and maybe that hooks you in.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah, I mean, I on even on all even to this day, like on all interviews, any interviews I do, I'm I I my statement to the to the candidate is I'm looking for someone that wants to be part of something larger than just themselves. And you can see it immediately like the people that get that the light bulb goes on and then the ones that don't, you know, they just want the job because it's close to home. You know, there's you know over 350 people in here right now at any given moment that can't just get up and walk out of here and are dependent upon us to keep them safe and secure. And um it most of it's behind the scenes so they'll never even know about the damper or the air handler or the filter system or whatever it is that we're working on. But that's they shouldn't have to they got other they're here because they're they're ill and they're in a time of need. They don't need to be worried about the air handler.

Hiring For Purpose And Soft Skills

SPEAKER_04 22:53

What traits do you look for when trying to identify somebody who may be that next level, you know, maybe up for that next level and advancing within the organization?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

I mean I think we're always constantly looking. I think that um you know and it's it's it's again it's part of the the management part of the job that I really enjoy it is that is is is not just looking at like hard skills but looking at the soft skills as well and trying to um one with communication and asking people like I find that I get I I get really good responses when I ask the question you know what do you want to do and where do you want to go and do you see yourself in management do you not want to be management um and I usually we'll start that dialogue pretty early in the process. And then it's kind of um you know it's you give them you give those folks that show an interest um stretch assignments. You know you give them you know things that they wouldn't normally get involved in. You know we've had you know people that were showing promise in our organization that you know during the last survey we brought them with us so that they could actually see and live on the front lines of why we're so critical on you know how we want our paperwork and where it comes and why it needs to be on time so that you know they were in the room and they got to see the surveyor and they got to do the tour and it was eye-opening because they they weren't they they saw why we're so stressed out around these things because they you know they were they were like wow I can't even believe how tough that was and so it changed you know their perspective and and his specifically like on you know on the quality of his paperwork and how he was turning it in and the attention to detail on that on on the stuff he was doing. So I think that that's really what I look at is someone that you know has the ability to communicate that they want to move and then when given the opportunity they take it. I'm here because when I was given opportunities I didn't go no I don't really want that I I I took the opportunity and um I was able to grow and luckily I had people in my in my career and still in my career that you know took an interest in me and spent the time to teach me and and let me you know make the mistakes but also guide me into how not to make mistakes um and I I kind of look to pay that forward really is like I you know as much as I can help people that want to move forward um and want to put the work in I will always invest time into them.

SPEAKER_04 25:15

Ryan you mentioned kind of the the regulatory issue that you just had to jump into but you know as you look back on it what are some of the you know Paul just talked about giving people experiences giving them stretch assignments is there anything or an anything in your memory that kind of sticks out that helped prepare you for this or an experience you're shaking your head so I'm gonna stop talking I don't think it was just one thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

I mean even as an intern when I first met Paul and we were on that project for Mr. Cantrell uh we were walking the building together you know attached to the hip trying to solve problems together and then when I came on full time that didn't change so he was going to meetings that I really had no business being in I mean I I didn't understand anything that was going on but at least I got exposed to it. And that goes even into back you know back to HR we we did a kind of a changeover of the department in the last seven years and early on Paul was meeting with HR and just saying hey Ryan's gonna sit in just so he can hear what's going on and it's invaluable. I it was did it feel like I was doing two jobs sometimes to an extent because I got all his meetings there for the day and I'm coming in early and staying late to get my stuff done but if you put the hours in it it did pay dividends and then just seeing it you're you're ready. And then in addition to that we talked about FaceTime and and you know first impressions and all that stuff at after you've been to all these meetings with these higher level folks and talking about more complex things they start to build a trust in you just because you're there. So on that first 4th of July weekend when you're having Roland Brownouts Paul's up north or whatever it is I'm trusted that okay you know what's going on you're gonna get us out of this and we're good to go. So yeah I don't think it was just one thing I think it was a a series of intentional dragging me along to to meetings and different places for exposure.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

If you like this video please like and subscribe to the network and more importantly share it with your colleagues in the healthcare industry. Together we can solve the aging crisis that's impacting all of us so when you're sitting in those meetings and when there's stuff kind of above you that you just don't understand I remember you know when I was starting in in in jobs when I didn't know what people were talking about and I was at a meeting now I'm older than you I would always just kind of write things down in my notebook and then go back and and check on it afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

What did you do when something you didn't understand so how did you learn from that and put that to action even to the point of because you know I went to Mass Marathon facilities engineering degree we got into HVAC and things like that but I don't understand everything about HVAC and I have these guys that four years experience come and talk to me about things I got very good at literally Googling things as I was having conversations. Along with taking notes and later on doing some research. And then if if I ran into something where I had no idea about it I then spend time figuring out everything I possibly can about it just so the next time I I would know.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

That's awesome I love I love that answer. Yeah I guess I guess that's the difference in age between you and me because when I was doing it there was nothing to Google was something that got you in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

And now it's and now it's the next step with AI people are getting answers immediately even faster.

SPEAKER_04 28:53

It's amazing isn't it oh you think how quickly um it's gone by it's it's just crazy.

Politics, Trust, And Communication

SPEAKER_04 29:00

I want to talk a little bit and Paul I want to go back to you kind of on a plan but um Ryan were you surprised and every organization is political Paul I mean you've been around you know this and Ryan you're learning it but were you did the politics of the organization or the politics of healthcare take the leahy part out of it you you've had a couple of different jobs did you expect like when you're a maritime and you were doing an internship so maybe but how did the politics of an organization it was it what you expected different or um it was more than I expected.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

So honestly it's something that when I was in school I didn't even think about yeah and where I really started seeing it is when Paul was trying to get me on board. Initially being no no management experience that people were hesitant to hire me out of school with rightfully so. So even just having Paul to walk through that and he would keep me informed as to okay this is what's going on was a huge exposure piece for me to see kind of how the politics work on that end of things.

SPEAKER_04 30:02

So yeah and then being at different organizations the culture is different everywhere you go but ultimately it kind of works a little bit the same so yeah different just sheep in different clothing I guess right exactly well Paul you and I have talked about this before I mean I'm not saying this because you're here you are a master at handling I mean you just kind of deal with the politics of the argument you work within it to advance what you need to be done and and you handle it well.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

I appreciate that I'm not sure I'm not sure everybody would agree with that stuff but I but I um but no I I do appreciate it but I think that's a critical you know one of the things that you know from from Ryan you know and him and I working together right from the get go is it was important to me that he understands that because that's the key you can't if it's not and it's not politics like Washington. It's politics of like you have to know like who has what position and who has you know control over what and then learning how to have you know develop relationships with those people because relationships get things done and and it's not just you know formulating an email and hit and send it's about you know them having you know like Ryan just touched upon it a little while ago is that is building that trust and faith that you know when I call you answer and I know that you always do and then they do they do it back for you. It's it's you know it's like the psychology of sales. It's like you know that the salesman used to go to the door and you know if you let me show you my vacuum I'll give you this real like cookie jar. And then you know it's inherent in people to you know well if you're gonna offer me something I feel like I have to at least like take something you know I have to listen to you. And and that's really like it's true. Like there's a whole book and on that whole subject on you know like the the training of you know salespeople but um I think it it works very similar in this environment where you know people have to have trust in you and you have to have trust in them um and and healthcare because of the nature of what everybody does for work. You know you know and I don't I don't mean to overshoot this because we are just facilities and I understand that but like people's lives do depend on actions that we're taking across the spectrum inside the hospital from the nurses, the nurse manager, you know, the C-suite facilities, environmental services like there's a lot of moving parts in this building with a lot of you know nasty things that can happen if the wrong choices are made or or you know the lines of communication are not open and you know are opened in real time. And I I think we all learned that you know during COVID of you know how things shifted so quickly because we had no idea what was happening but we still had to like do things. So to me I think that that's you know a key driver to anybody's career you know coming in you know from and especially in management like starting in management and and healthcare is to really understand um how it all ties together and how it works and being able to learn to navigate that and and not take it personally because that's that's where a lot of people's downfall it can it can get easily personal or people think it's like directed directly to them and it's not yeah that's actually Paul um a good future episode because I'm hearing that a lot uh more increasingly where people take it personally and it's not it's business and like you said that air hand you talked about the air handler the patient doesn't know there's an air handler but if that air handler's not functioning the patient's gonna might not know the reason but they're not getting the care that they need or or deserve.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

So yeah that's a really good point.

Flexible Plans And Earned Responsibility

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Paul this is to you um you know people sometimes let's talk suggestion planning not the business continuity though I really do like that business continuity part but sometimes people get stuck um with trying to formulate a plan right sometimes it's okay I don't know what to do that stops them from moving forward right but it doesn't no do you formulate a plan I mean there's a lot of learning by doing and you're including right but do you have a formal plan that you lay out or is it how do you how do you work that process I don't have a formal plan I I mean I think and I I guess you could and I wish I was I wish I was that you know dedicated and and you know uh able to put something like that together and and and and hold to it but I I I kind of like to go with the flow I guess and for um I think everybody's personality is different everybody's learning style is different um so I think that to you know have a one plan fits all type of a thing I don't I don't know that that would work for me because I I I one I don't want to I have to be able to respond in real time in the in the situation and I and I I like that and I'm I think I'm good at it. So I think that trying to have a rigid program I mean I think there's there's some baselines in my in my head as to like what kind of criteria as we talked about before of a person that I'm going to invest time and and and money into um but yeah there's no I don't have a set hard you know this is the program and follow the program or else because I think like I said everybody learns differently so and some people's career paths go in different you know I you don't have to not you know the world still needs like environmental services people not everybody's going to be a manager so like it's okay we need those folks like I it's okay if you just want to be an electrician or you just just be the best one you can be like you don't have to you know strive to be the leader of of the organization just do the job you do it and do it well and I think that um you know that to me is more my my plan than it is like some sort of rigid you know template that you know I could hand off and I am handing it off like I was doing it verbally and Ryan is seeing it and he's learning he's learning from my mistakes so like just like I did I've learned more from I learned more and by watching other people of what not to do than I have of probably what to do. And I'm hoping Ryan's getting the same the same experience where you know he he sees where I I've fallen off the tracks and and and is you know we'll hopefully when he has the opportunity to make those decisions we'll we'll be able to you know have a higher level of um insight because of watching all the different things that have happened.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Ryan how do you respond to that?

SPEAKER_02 36:16

I mean I especially on the point of everyone's a little bit different I mean that goes into succession planning but also just general management where everyone's managed a little bit differently everyone needs a little bit different things um whether it's how we talk to them, tone of voice, you know whatever it is.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

So I I agree with that wholeheartedly so from from your perspective Ryan your perspective um like when you started on this road it's kind of like not informal but you're just kind of accumulating as you go along as as opposed to following as opposed to saying okay I'm gonna hit this metric that metric this metric. It's it's what sounds like it it and it works.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Yeah I I I'd agree with that because it me coming in I could have been stronger in one thing than another you know topic so it's it it I I feel like it changed kind of day to day it was consistent messaging but what the the learning process kind of changed day to day or you know he waited Paul waited a little while to get me really involved in budgets but over the a couple years into it all of a sudden it's okay now we're gonna sit down and do the budget together so you fully understand this where we didn't have to dive into that right away because he was kind of doing that and there was different things to do.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

So it's yeah as it comes yeah let's talk Paul to you let's talk about that a little bit so you're a couple years in now you're exposing Ryan to the budget and then we talked about you don't necessarily have that formal process map but in your mind are there kind of like biting off not biting off too much right away not giving too much right away because you realize that Ryan's still kind of learning and managing how do you think about that process um it's an earned process I like you know what I I've said that Ryan from and all the managers that work for me it's you know and something I believe in and you know and and management especially is is like you know if you do a good job you'll get more and and like you'll continue to get more until you don't succeed and then that will stop and that will be where your career plateaus.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Every time I give Ryan or any one of the managers an assignment one I'm I'm giving them an assignment that I truly believe that they can succeed in. So I'm not setting them up for failure. But then if they don't you know can't succeed or they can't do it and even after trying to help them out well then that's the end of the road as far as like you're not gonna you're not gonna get three levels up if you can't do this. So it's really more of an earned thing I would say that it's to each of the you know Ryan to each of the managers I've had, they've earned everything they've gotten because the assignments that they've received or whether it's taken on different departments or it's taken on joint commission or you know a you know a revalidation survey or whatever it is and they've handled it and they've succeeded and not only succeeded but like overly you know impressed people with it that was the the opportunity to give them more responsibility so that you know they could because they weren't they they they moved past that level and now they were ready for the next level. So it was you know before I give you the keys to the to the to the to the the car which is the the budget like I need to make sure that you understand like okay well how does everything else work like how does the operations work so you know how to you know clearly put money into it like if you don't know how it works. So he did all of those things. So it was really kind of one you know it's a step by step and because it is healthcare and I think you know to get back to you know like a kind of a more rigid program it's our day-to-day like life in healthcare is completely different every minute to minute every day like I I come in every day with a plan of what I'm gonna do only to change it as soon as I walk in the door because something happened that I wasn't expecting. So I think um you know Ryan being able to adapt that type of environment and and you know succeed at everything that has been given to him and excel at it I think is that's really this has nothing to do with me. I I I this is their work. It's his work he's he's doing the work and then I'm able because he's able to successfully do the work and have the bandwidth to do it I can give him more which allows me to move into different directions and do different things in my career.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

And part of that is giving your managers or supervisor whatever is the confidence that it you're gonna make mistakes and that's okay. I mean Paul tells I think every manager he has that I'm gonna let you scrape your knee and got not get hit by the bus. And love it. Yeah I I took that to heart saying okay you have the confidence in me that I'm gonna do this and if it does start to go off the rails I have a backstop and you that I can go to if if if needed that's actually the next that was actually the next question that I was going to ask kind of two part Ryan starting with you um running the process that way has have there been any difficulties or or learning moments for you and then Paul I want to ask you how do you let them like when do you decide to jump in and I think Ryan you're you know I'm gonna let you scrape your knee but I'm not gonna let you get hit by the

Guardrails, Decisions, And Sharing Credit

SPEAKER_02 41:08

bus.

SPEAKER_04 41:08

How do you determine when it's time to let them learn let them fail and then kind of come in and I'm imagining it's pretty amorphous but for you Ryan have there been difficulties or one area and Paul how do you let them swim and get on their own?

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah I mean especially early on there's always difficulties just because the sheer volume of work that I wasn't expecting when I first started where it's out more than you thought yeah significantly just it was a lot to learn but also manage at the same time so when I said drinking through a fire hose it it wasn't a joke. It was it felt like I was constantly being being bombarded with something else you're going to look at one thing while getting three other phone calls to do something else especially depending on your building and the people you have I mean when we first came here we had an aging infrastructure and we still do and you know things are still breaking but it wasn't just okay I know what to do because I've done this before I had to learn the process and learn what I didn't know to now make it easier. So yeah I Paul fortunately let me loose a little bit and said okay let's see what you do just check in with me and make sure so you know when we get the floods in the middle of the night we don't both have to be there in the middle of the night or whatever it is. It's you know the first couple times we were both there up to our ankles in water. But after you learn the process and then the cleanup and that kind of stuff afterwards you you build that confidence and can just kind of start doing it on your own. So there's always challenges um specifically I I don't know anything specific that you know I really struggle with this. I think it's it all just comes and you learn about it and kind of grow through it.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

So just a challenge that's it and Paul from your perspective throwing that life preserver?

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Yeah so I I mean again it it starts from the very beginning so it's again I'm not setting up the people that work for me for failure. So like I I will never give someone one I will never make someone do something I won't do but two I won't I don't like I'm not gonna give Ryan you know the hardest thing that he possibly ever have to do in healthcare on his first week in in healthcare like so it's it's it's allowing them so you know it's it's separate you know all right go go mark all of these panels and then you know and label them down and then when that comes back and it's all done and it's organized and all right then I know all right I don't need to tell all right this is what I want you to do figure out how to do it just put it in there. So it starts kind of like that and then I I kind of like my my thought process with it really is is you know anything that would get me called to the carpet to explain, you need to run by me. If it's a localized decision internally like where it's all internal like okay I'm gonna give you the autonomy to make that decision. If you run into something that you don't understand or you need some guidance come to me but I'm not gonna micromanage the process but like if this is something that's gonna affect where I'm gonna get called to the president's office or my boss's office to explain Then I'm I'm I really want you to come by and talk to me before you make a move because I'm the one that's going to have to answer for it.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

That sounds like an effective guardrail. Has that worked well for you, Ryan? Kind of in your head to know that and keep you.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah, for sure. And even on top of that, you know, if I if I went to him with uh, hey, this is what we're dealing with, he goes, So what do you think we should do? Not just give me the answer. I'd work through it and already have an answer ready for him, but it's just something to bounce off of them. And it's either, yep, yep, that's what I would do, go for it, or okay, what do we have you thought about it this way? And yeah, so it's been very effective, guardrail, backstop, whatever you want to call it. Um to to have that option just to bounce ideas off of.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

And I would say too, like, and the you know, to kind of go in that with all, you know, Ryan's heard this many times, and everybody else that's you know come to work for me as a manager's heard. This is, you know, you're the operations function of the of the of the office. Like, so like I'm expecting you to handle the operations. And if I have to do the operations, I don't need you. Like this is if you know, and it's so this isn't all like you know, sunshine and rainbows. It's like I'm I can be I'm I'm tough and demanding, I'm demanding on myself, I'm demanding on my staff. So it's not like a free ride. Like, there's a you have to earn the right to be here and do all of the work that you're getting. So it's not just, I don't want to do anything, so you handle it. There's a there is a method to the madness, even if it's not in in on the paper. Um, but it's it's it, you know, that's really what to me is is you know, Ryan comes in. I already know, like now we've worked together for so long. I already, I'm like, before I even say it, I'm like, all right, uh, you already have the answer to this. What do you want to do? Like, I know he's already he, and that's you know, one thing that I've really liked. Um, and watching him like grow as a manager and as a leader is is that like he he understands that he's thinking about stuff constantly. So it's not just like he's not winging it, like it's it it I don't want to say bothers him, but like it it's it's it's important enough to him that he thinks about it in times that he shouldn't be thinking about it. And and I do a lot of the same thing. And I think people that are successful at their jobs, it's not just a I don't just go home and completely shut off. There's some times when I have to think about my next steps and how I'm gonna do it, you know, and the strategy behind it. And and Brian is very similar to that. And a lot of my other managers are too. Like they they come with you know solutions and not just problems. And and that sounds so cliche, but it's so important because so many people don't get that. Like I'm not I'm not here to solve all of the problems, I'm here to direct traffic. Like your operations, like you need to be able to, you know, assess what you're working with and then make a plan of action. And you know, just like we, you know, when we were at the conference, you know, the the spring conference with uh, you know, this the keynote speaker, and he was talking about, you know, the you know, not making a decision is making a decision. Yeah, you know, so and that's the worst thing you could possibly do when it sends the wrong message to your team when you're indecisive and people, you know, I didn't have enough information. Well, you're never gonna have enough information. It's you know, sometimes you have to, you know, you have to take initiative and you have to like be comfortable comfortable and confident in your ability to lead the people that you're leading. And um, you know, I think that that's I try to instill that in in all the people that work for me. And and if you micromanage, then people are afraid to take that step because they're gonna they don't want to get in trouble. Yeah, like I you have to be willing to get in trouble sometimes to make decisions.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

And you're gonna fail. I thought the keynote speaker last week, uh Lieutenant Colonel, do you remember his name? It was like Oakland McCullough. Oh was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

I mean, I might be my new hero.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Yeah, but he was up there for what? Um 70-75 minutes. I could have listened, I could have gone another hour. I mean, he was outstanding.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yeah, he might be one of the best like keynote speakers that we've ever had from a Nehis group.

SPEAKER_04 47:45

Did you guys get good feedback from the attendees?

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, I mean, I mean, so far we'll see we did the questionnaires like so people for the certificate, so we're still waiting on the final, but as far as attendance, it was over 425 people this year, which is a very high number for us. So um, I'm pretty sure that people, anybody that got the opportunity to witness his his um delivery, like if you didn't, if you weren't impressed by that, I don't know what to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yeah, for the keynote in particular, I got a lot of positive feedback.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Yeah, he was great. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I like I said, I could have listened to him. So we're coming up at the end of an hour because these two guys just don't do succession planning and talk, they actually do real work. Um for like Paul, to you for an FM leader, and maybe I know what your answer is going to be, but we'll ask anyways. But for an FM leader who's watching this, they knew they do something, they knew they all talk about it, not everybody does it. Is there a piece of advice you could give them just to get started? And then both of you, because you're both experienced, are there some common mistakes to avoid? So I guess Paul, do you how do you just get started? And then to both of you, are there mistakes that you could tell people that you guys have made or you're aware of to avoid and have it go smoothly? It's never gonna go smoothly, you know what I mean. Smooth doesn't always work.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

I don't know. I think again, every situation is different and organizations are different. And again, I I've I've been very fortunate that for the last 25 years of my career, I've been inside the Leahy organization. Um, and you know, so they've been they've been very good to me, and they do have a culture that kind of looks at, you know, the way in which we treat one another and and how they treat us. And I think so it was easy for me to like to do some of the things that I'm doing because the cult culturally it was accepted. Um I I think it's really to me, like the biggest thing is is to um engage and and like and drop your guard. Like again, again, don't be don't be like if you're going into this and you're really worried about like losing your job or giving someone you know all the information and then they won't need you anymore. I I think I think you're not ready to like do succession planning. You actually need to start taking a look at like, is this the career for you? And like, is this organization right for you? Because if every waking moment of my day I felt like my organization was looking for ways to remove me, I I'd forget setting them up for the future. I I don't have a future, you know, like I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know that that's a good environment. So I think that you know, it in order to have a successful secession planning or continuity of operation, you have to have a you have to have an organization that like believes in their people and wants to help where they can. And again, you know, lay is not giving things away. Um, that like you got to earn it. And and like, you know, people that earn it, like in my experience with with the with the organization and and leadership over the years is that um they value that and they they you know move it forward when they can and and they will work with you to help you and and and help you better your career. So I think that um you know, you have to have that's the key driver, and and and if you have that, you know, that the person like myself and my role, I I can't be worried about you know, if Ryan's gonna take my job or not. Like I, you know, I you know, and I've I've said it to Ryan, I've laughed at, you know, seven it's a pretty much everybody that I've worked with. Like, I don't, you know, try and take my job. Like, go ahead. You won't be the first one, you won't be the last one. And honestly, that makes me stronger, right? Like, because I have to see I have to stay on my A game. So it's not just I'm I'm learning as much from Ryan and my team as hopefully they're learning from me. It's not a one-way street. And you know, so I and and that that camarader and it's camaraderie and it's it's healthy, you know, challenging. It's not it's not like backstabbing and trying to step on someone's neck to get to where you want to go. It's like I have a very high performing team that I'm very proud of, but it makes me have to have my A game all the time because I'll be the one that's I will lose my job because they deserve to be where I'm at. So I'm like, bring it. It's you know, it's good, you know. But a lot of people have you know, they have a fear of that kind of healthy competition.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Brian, anyway. I think also it's it's Paul mentioned ego earlier. It's trying to take ego out of it and yeah, giving credit where credit's due. So, for example, if if you have a manager or someone that's looking up to you and you give them a task and they do it, let them present it or let them be the face of it. Don't take their work and present it as your own things like that, which I think is that happens. Yeah, it's common. And because you know, I'm the director, I need to be the guy that talks to them, and it's well, give them an opportunity to prove themselves. And and I'm thankful that Paul's never been like that. If it's my work, I get credit for that work. So it gives gives his team an opportunity to shine, which in turn lets him shine because he built that team.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Like you got to build your brand, and that's how you do that here, is is by being able to present and show your work. And um, you know, I I see it, I've seen it so many times with people exactly like Ryan said, like, you know, I got all my people in the back working, you know, till you know seven o'clock at night, slaving away trying to get all these like PowerPoint presentations together, and then I I show up at the big meeting show, look what we did. And I I hate that.

SPEAKER_04 53:08

You know, I know we gotta go, you gotta go. That's funny. You say that, Paul. I heard a story once, and um it's a true story. There was somebody who was doing a presentation at a regional conference, and the person up there presenting, there was a person in the audience who's like, that's part of my presentation. That's part of my presentation that the first so or how and I've heard it happen numerous times. What I love about what you said is you know, this is so much of a soft skill that you're really good at. I mean, if you can't communicate, take your ego out, and the last thing I think you hit on what we might title this, see if the marketing people agree, succession planning. Engage and drop your

Closing And Ways To Engage

SPEAKER_04 53:50

guard. Isn't that like that is engage and drop your guard? Because if you can't do that, you're not gonna succession plan.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

I love that line. I'm I might pay you for it if I trademark.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

All right, there you go. My royalties as a as my future blogger career goes for.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

We're not bloggers, we're videographers. I don't even know the lingo. That shows you. Yeah, it's all right. You'll be my succession plan. There you go. Taking over for Pete. Next, Pete, next month. We'll see you guys there.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

There you go. Paul DeViller, right? I appreciate your time. Paul, you want to close it out? Close it out. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Um, thank you so much for having us. We really uh look forward to um you know seeing seeing the results of this, and I hope I hope people that watch this get something out of it. And um, if you want to hear more, you want to talk to any of us, you know, reach out to Pete. We'll be more than happy to you know communicate or touch base with anybody that has any questions.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

Awesome. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you, Pete. If you want to be a guest on a future episode of the Healthcare Facilities Network, go to healthcarefacilities network.com and let us know who you are and what you want to talk about. Because together, we can solve this critical aging issue.