Ampersand Biomedicines CEO Jason Gardner, D.Phil. first took the leap from a global pharmaceutical giant to a startup at the forefront of transplant medicine innovation. Since that time, he's seen most of the ups and the downs that come with biotech leadership, and in his latest venture with the Flagship Pioneering-backed Ampersand, he's putting all those hard-fought lessons to good use. On this episode of the Business of Biotech -- the final (finally!) of several recorded at the JPM Healthcare Conference in January -- Gardner shares how and why he's applying his experience to the buildout of a precision medicine platform company, his thoughts on how big data and AI are influencing the precision medicine space and putting the "tech" in "techbio," his company's acquisition strategy, most recently demonstrated by Ampersand's acquisition of AbCheck, why "paranoid optimism" is central to his company's culture, and much, much more.
You've listened along for years -- now you can watch along, too! Go to bioprocessonline.com/solution/the-business-of-biotech-podcast, where you can put faces to voices as you watch hundreds of interviews with the world's best biotech builders. While you're there, subscribe to the #BusinessofBiotech newsletter at bioprocessonline.com/bob for more real, honest, transparent interactions with the leaders of emerging biotech. It's a once-per-month dose of insight and intel that you'll actually look forward to receiving! Check it out at bioprocessonline.com/bob!
Ampersand Biomedicines CEO Jason Gardner, D.Phil. first took the leap from a global pharmaceutical giant to a startup at the forefront of transplant medicine innovation. Since that time, he's seen most of the ups and the downs that come with biotech leadership, and in his latest venture with the Flagship Pioneering-backed Ampersand, he's putting all those hard-fought lessons to good use. On this episode of the Business of Biotech -- the final (finally!) of several recorded at the JPM Healthcare Conference in January -- Gardner shares how and why he's applying his experience to the buildout of a precision medicine platform company, his thoughts on how big data and AI are influencing the precision medicine space and putting the "tech" in "techbio," his company's acquisition strategy, most recently demonstrated by Ampersand's acquisition of AbCheck, why "paranoid optimism" is central to his company's culture, and much, much more.
You've listened along for years -- now you can watch along, too! Go to bioprocessonline.com/solution/the-business-of-biotech-podcast, where you can put faces to voices as you watch hundreds of interviews with the world's best biotech builders. While you're there, subscribe to the #BusinessofBiotech newsletter at bioprocessonline.com/bob for more real, honest, transparent interactions with the leaders of emerging biotech. It's a once-per-month dose of insight and intel that you'll actually look forward to receiving! Check it out at bioprocessonline.com/bob!
I'm Matt Pillar, host of the Business of Biotech podcast, and if you're listening to my voice right now but not seeing my face, maybe you haven't heard that we've launched a new Business of Biotech video cast page under the Listen and Watch tab at bioprocessonlinecom. There you'll find hundreds of videos of my interviews with biotech builders, categorized by topic, like finance and capital markets, regulatory discovery and manufacturing.
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Matt Pillar:I'm not shy about my admiration for the flagship pioneering community. It's a veritable breeding ground for biotech innovation and the organization has given us generous access to its partner CEOs itself a who's who of biotech entrepreneurship. Less than a year into his role as CEO at Ampersand Biomedicines, Jason Gardner offers a case in point. He joined Ampersand on the heels of his leadership of the rise and ultimate wind down of Magenta Therapeutics, that tenure preceded by a lengthy career that started at Chiron and saw a long stay at GSK. Jason's seen some things, experienced the highs and the lows, and come back for more, demonstrating the kind of fortitude required of a leader in this tough business. At Ampersand, he's working on a tech-driven platform that aims to redefine how we identify local precision medicine targets and develop navigable therapeutics to address those targets pluggable therapeutics to address those targets. I'm Matt Piller, this is the Business of Biotech, and I was honored to sit down with Jason in San.
Matt Pillar:Francisco to discuss this heady stuff and a whole lot more. Let's give it a listen. Jason Gardner, CEO at Ampersand. Before we get into learning about Ampersand, I want to rewind a little bit and get to know you. It's always interesting to me when an exec leaves the at least perceived comforts of a company like GSK, where you were for 11 years to jump into sort of a biotech. You did that, notably leading Magenta Therapeutics, after 11 years at GSK. So the fundamental question is what motivated you to make that move?
Jason Gardner:Yes. So first of all, my clients would have been no my pleasure to be here. So, reflecting back at that time and that decision, there were really three memories we had. So first, the science the science of transplant medicine was really coming together, with a number of academic labs and new programs coming out. It was a great opportunity to potentially build a company around it. Second was the impact of the patients.
Jason Gardner:So transplants are curative. Transplants are really not done as widely as they could be because it's quite hard for patients to go through it. The initial transplant and swab regenerative was built to solve with this new site. And the third was the team people. So one of the people who's co-founded with me was my boss post-op at Harvard, david Skadden, and then both Atlas Ventures and Third Rock Ventures were interested in science, in building center companies, and so we were able to bring them together and build one company and that became Magenta Therapeutics. So that combination and we'll talk a bit more about that in the future, a future decision-making In the science, the impact on patients and the people to me it was very important and so, even though I wasn't looking to leave GST, that was the end of the stream of motivation.
Matt Pillar:There's got to be and I ask this question often and sometimes I get honest there's got to be, you know, at least some degree of trepidation when you make a move like that. I mean people spend their entire careers at companies like gsk, comfortably especially in leadership positions like you are in. I mean, yes, you know it wasn't like there was the end of a career trajectory there, right? So walk me through that, like speaking to uh folks who may be considering making such a move how do you?
Matt Pillar:how do you?
Matt Pillar:rationalize it. And how did your wife take it, jason?
Jason Gardner:so so I've been in biotech before gsk, spent eight years first here at chiron and as a junior scientist and then at bridger's okay in new york the most senior site, so I knew a bit about Vita and life in a smaller company and again I'd be very happy and I had great opportunities at GSK. But this was a moment for me to really look at those three principles the science, the impact on patients and the team and I just felt doing that in a new company startup environment would be impactful and also a challenge to me personally in the next chapter of my career, so that dinner table conversation with my wife was very interesting and I got very clear feedback that if this was the moment, this is what I should do.
Jason Gardner:Yeah.
Matt Pillar:So, yeah, the support is fundamental.
Jason Gardner:And you're incredibly. Can I just double click on that? So when I was building Magenta, and then similarly now at Appas and I talk about that we got employees. Our employees, families and their friends and their networks are really part of our extended team and we rely on them. Sometimes, you know, when the days are long and there are ups and downs and twists and turns in our industry and our work. It's often our families and our friends who provide that support. So I always thank our team members to ensure the big bounce to the to that team, that extended team, yeah, yeah.
Matt Pillar:Another transition that I wanted to get your perspective on would be I mean, you mentioned that you started out as a. You're a research scientist, yes, yeah. At what point along the road did you begin to develop an interest in, in leadership and business development?
Jason Gardner:and, yeah, so basically I, you know, I went into biotech and into the industry principally because I loved science, but I really wanted to make medicines and then I just thought that was the best way to do that. Um, and so learning the science of the industry, which is really the foundation of our industry, was terrific. We were talking about how it became medicine, so I was very fortunate in that world with great teams. And then, naturally, I was fortunate to get leadership opportunities, leading projects first and then leading teams and then building teams and then building units over the years. And then the business side just came along. So I started setting up budgets, setting up partnerships, knowing how to do that, learning, adapting and thinking strategically.
Jason Gardner:And then, in Sioux, I learned a lot of the business from people who I worked with, from my doing and delivering, and I think that's a very important way to learn a lot in school and a lot both on the science and the business side, but doing that to practice and doing that with great people who you can learn from, and being humble. Being humble and also knowing that everything we do here in the industry is as a team, being able to communicate well, listen, learn, ask. It's been. I think I've been very lucky to have those opportunities and I'm excited. Oh, we're doing that, yeah.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, very good. Was there a particular point where you know, as you assume those responsibilities, those leadership responsibilities, was there a particular point, where was it? You know a light bulb moment, like I want to run the show.
Jason Gardner:Yeah, so that's an interesting question. I believe in, you know, my values will be around investing potions and I was using science to do that in a leadership role. That was in battle and then to me if I could make more of it. I never woke up one day and thought I have to be a CEO, I want to be a CEO. It was more of a natural progression and for me, I was also very fortunate to have a number of influential mentors and still do in my career, both at GSK, both beyond GSK and until today in the venture world and in the biotech world.
Jason Gardner:I believe firmly that those types of experienced mentors, those folks who have been CEOs or been leaders, provide a huge amount of feedback into our system, even though they're not the most operational roles. That's incredibly important. You look at the diaspora, certainly in the Boston biotech community, of companies that have become great companies and team members who have gone on to do great things in other companies and then beyond. It's an amazing network, yeah, and it's one of the reasons I believe the venture firms and the investors like Blacksheet, have talent-based networks to be able to access and tap into that, and so, as a CEO, I remember one of my mentors, right took the role. Well was recreated and profounded. Magenta told me the CEO is the loneliest job in the world. It is the time where you find out how you can make hard decisions. But it doesn't need to be. You have to have an experienced board, a team around you and then so see, those networks can be very helpful.
Matt Pillar:Did you take advantage of any formalized network opportunities, or was it more of an informal?
Jason Gardner:Oh no, it's more informal and I would say, you know, I think folks have been very generous with that time, which, with the the years, and I also like to network with people as well and share experiences. And in today's flagship world as well, there is a very vibrant cross-CEO and cross-company within the flagship ecosystem. Right, lots of sharing of experiences and ideas as well. It's a great model. We'll talk more about it Company creation. It's also a great model of network for company building and company execution as well. That interplay Sure. So I think networking and the networking skills and I tell my children who are teenagers about that and what you learn in college is going to be important. What you then do with that is going to be important in your careers. But who and how you work and building those networks over the years is going to be important for whatever career choice you're in, particularly in finance.
Matt Pillar:Entirely. I mean, I could go along on stories about this. My son just started, uh, college this past fall, you know, and he's he's of this mindset where he just thinks he has to have everything mapped out and I'm like, but you can map it out all you want, it's not going to play out the way you but, but it's it's who, what and and how right you interact. So, um, I want to get the get the story behind your arrival on the scene at flagship. So you're, you're only six or so months on the scene right now. Five, five, okay, so not even six yet, yeah, so so new there. Uh, you joined flagship sort of on the heels of magenta's wind down yes, that'd be the appropriate way to put it. So how did that come to pass?
Jason Gardner:Yeah, so basically I was thinking about my next role and the way I could impact patients and science and really bring my experience to an organization. So I got to do the flagship team. I had several members that were ready to pull beyond the EU Medicine was a great capacity as well the rest of the folks and we started a conversation about you know what could be an interesting opportunity for somebody to dive in on. And I got to know a back of Asia and the Ampersand team and I went on the cda. Uh, I read the website and I listened to lots of the flagship uh interviews, uh on youtube as well. So really don't understand about what it's like to work, that good diligence as folks, people. But I went on the cd and I put her and saw the under seven data, the science, and then it's blown away and I thought this is what I have to do next and what's wrong if it's about what company's doing.
Jason Gardner:Yeah, the platform. But I really wanted to build a platform company. Just the business optionality, I think the opportunities of ships would we've talked about that In this current capital markets. It's very powerful. I like the impact of this platform on how it's an architectural and then the team. So the team was terrific and the flagship model and the expertise the flagship raised, so it checked those three boxes for me and so it was a very, in the end, straightforward decision. I'm about to say the dinner table conversation this time, and then I have to rely on my wife. It was, uh, very straightforward yeah, very nice.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, half percent formed up officially in 21. Yes, so, uh, obviously it was before your arrival on the scene. But give me a little bit of the backstory into how and why.
Jason Gardner:Yeah, so this is really, I think, very important about the flagship model. So the science comes from flagship explorations into emerging areas of big breaking science. So three years ago, if you wind the clock back, was really when big biology, big data, ai was starting to emerge on super biotech. So flagship creates companies around. Audacious questions right. Questions that other investors would look at and ask why we've asked that question Right.
Jason Gardner:And so you know, that can be incredibly powerful, thinking about what could happen next. And the question for Amberson basically was what if we could program smarter medicines to act and work only where they're needed in the body, right? So this is a question that has challenged the industry since the start. We make many medicines that work and we give them to patients. The vast majority of them do not specifically target exactly where they need to be. So I'll give you an example Steroids Steroids widely. There's a neutral information Steroids work. Steroids work across lots of tissues. It causes lots of side effects and we wish we could just target them specifically to where they're needed, right. So there's lots of other types of medicines that could also apply that.
Jason Gardner:So with that question, how do you do that? Well, with big data and AI starting to emerge, three years ago, basically, they built the company around this challenge of creating an addressed map, molecular anatomy of the human body, tissue, cellular and protein level, understanding all the potential targets that you could then use to send medicines exactly to. Whatever you do, it programmed biologics. So basically they're going to drug and say it's in the kidney and then make an antibody just to bind to that address and then attach the antibody to an active drug that you then send to the kidney and it only works in the kidney. You already know the drug's active, maybe an approved drug, right. But it could be a drug that's already been there suddenly but didn't work out because it didn't have the right potency levels or it didn't have the safety effects. But you can then apply this address map across very different tissues and diseases right as a platform.
Jason Gardner:So that was three years ago, in the first year, starting to assemble all these publicly available data sets, start learning algorithms to to particular targets, and then, over the next two years, developed even bigger data sets, both public as well as proprietary data sets, probably in the flagship ecosystem, and then started to generate data because the algorithms and the machine learning can actually design the molecules on the computer Such that you can then test them on the computer in the machine learning and then you can test a handful in the lab and you can do that within months, which would normally take years and frankly, would still have a high risk of whether the biology would work. And I'll just take a step back Today at the start of clinical development. 90% of the drugs start clinical development with FAPE Right.
Jason Gardner:So imagine if you're a sports player, right, and you're at 90% or 10% batting average of the baseball player right, it just wouldn't work.
Jason Gardner:So one of the reasons that that number is so high, the federated rate, is because our ability to select the targets and send those to the right places, the biodistribution of our medicines, has never been possible to make it precise a program without this type of platform, possible to make it precise a program without this type of platform. So that was the that really. I mean the foundational science in this platform, the address map, machine learning, the algorithms, the ability to get started to drugs within months, not years. And then I started to look at the data and the early projects and talk about someone and it was really exciting, and so I knew this would be a big story. The vision and the vision that you could actually show and understand that it was working very quickly, even in pre-clinical studies. And then the opportunities across all sets of diseases, the opportunities for partnerships and, I think, the opportunities to make a massive impact that would not have been possible before.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, I think the opportunity to make a massive impact that would not have been possible before. Yeah, when you started talking about sort of the idea and you said the investment community, the traditional investment community, might you know, look at that wide-eyed right, raise an eyebrow, perhaps Flagship strikes me as interesting in its commitment to the exploratory. I don't know, there's probably a more eloquent way of saying that, but it's unique and I wonder how it's rationalized, like, what's your perception on that? How do you rationalize funding, especially in this economy when there are so many, so many uh vcs? Are, you know, tranching deals based on outcomes, civic milestones, like and if it doesn't happen, it's, it's over? Like you're not. You're talking about putting significant resources behind big concepts. I'm just curious how, like what?
Jason Gardner:how would you actually so it's a great question and from my perspective, it really is best answered in through the lens of the platform. Do you really believe you have a platform and you're building a platform company, or are you really interested in building an asset in a company with one or two assets? So in order to have a platform, right, I believe as a business, you'd have to set out milestones to demonstrate that you have a platform. So what does it take to build a platform? And this was interesting as I got to know Flagship and got on the CDA and I remember visiting Ampersand, talking to some of the scientists. It was really great, very exciting. And then that night one of the flagship recruitment team members called me and said hey, jason, could you come in to flagship tomorrow? We'd like to give a presentation on the efficient For the company. We'll talk about platform building approach with Archer. So in the CEO world, you have to be ready to hustle and respond and react. So we had that conversation I remember talking about and Flagship, the Flagship partnership, are, you know, one of the ultimate platform-building company groups.
Jason Gardner:So showing that you have a platform, that you can do this multiple times, that you can do it on demand, right, and you really can do something that's not been done before. And then if you really… that's principle one Are you going to link back on company show that you can do it multiple times From a preclinical perspective. Do you have the right data set? Then you can pick projects that can become your portfolio. You can pick projects that you can partner with potential partner partner companies as well. But if you really take the time and the emphasis and the investment and just reach in, knowing that you've got a platform and you're recruiting people who want to build platform companies, versus just saying, yeah, of course we want to get to that, yes, of course we want to, it doesn't matter. But spending the time to ensure that that mindset and that culture is built in and starts to come out, it's incredibly important. So it's not just from an investor perspective, it's also from a team. Yeah, yeah.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, when you stepped into the role at Ampersand what five months ago. You're well aware of the environment, the financial environment, when you take that position, take that position. How did you personally rationalize that? Yes, stepping into a startup?
Jason Gardner:Yes, right, a pretty rocky time yes, so you know the capital market's been turbulent, as you're living to, for some time, both in the private as well as public markets, and sector macro forces and sector-specific forces.
Jason Gardner:Having learned a lot from the Vigento experience as a private company CEO and a public company CEO, it was very helpful for me to rationalize that. But in my opinion at the time, at the time, my view was that that type of turbulence actually selects for the best science. It selects for the best opportunities and the best teams, and so I found it relatively, in my opinion, straightforward to filter and think about that. And so when I got some pleasure from Ampersand, it was a blow away like amazing opportunity. And so when I got some of their flagship and Alparsad, it was a blow away like amazing opportunity. And then so the world around became very still and I think Yubar refers to it as the poly crisis right, that drives innovation, it drives opportunities, and for me it was actually relatively straightforward, actually relatively straightforward, seeing the science and those you know principles I talked about the opportunity for patients and seeing, yeah, all right, so let's talk about, you know, the, the, the team, the science.
Matt Pillar:Those were probably the first and easiest boxes to check. Yes, uh, the, the patient impact. I want to, I want to have a conversation around the platform, dig into the platform and sort of translate that to. She flicks away. But the intended patient impact you talked briefly about the address navigate, determine and trademarked and platform. Um, give us a little more color on that. Yes, yes.
Jason Gardner:So basically, the three pillars to platform the address map first, right. So that's that big data set. They were constantly curating, constantly updating and increasing. So we have um lots data over a terabyte of data, which is over 100 billion data points across disease, across different OX, across different proteins, and so mapping tissues and cells that exquisite well Together with an algorithm you can use to predict addresses has constantly been updated in a team of computational monitors and a team of scientists who work very closely within the flagship intelligence team of the cloud system. So a lot of really heavy-duty data and scientists.
Jason Gardner:So then the second pillar is the navigators of building these molecules in Silicode, which I think is really being a massive step forward for the industry over the last several years, and the ability to do that and to convert basically what would have taken years into months to design molecules and fine-tune them. So in our case we've got hand bodies, sort of like an antibody targeting piece and an active drug. We can fine-tune both of those between silicon, so we can take an approved drug and make it better, not just by telling it's the right place, but by optimizing its properties yeah, good, so you can do that and then the determinant piece which. The determinant piece which is when we make a few of these molecules, we can test them in the lab. So we have lab-based scientists. Lab-based scientists run these studies and then the data that come out of these studies very quickly feed back into the platform through machine learning and the platform becomes even more powerful and more active. So that's a true existence. Now we also last week announced we acquired an antibody-distilled platform company in.
Jason Gardner:Europe, yeah. So Abcheck yeah, that's right. So the reason we did that was because we were starting to see that science emerged from the M-cell platform and we knew that we would need to make antibody binding. And AdCheck had the experience, the capabilities, to be able to do that with full stack discovery technologies in the lab, including cutting edge technologies like micro fluidics and functional antibody screening, so you can go end to end to generate ample grade antibodies. They have a huge amount of experience. So on day one we became an integrated antibody.
Jason Gardner:The story company can now take a really cool platform early science and start to make medicines and then took us on it very different. So we basically not only double the size of the company, but it became a different company because of that and really accelerated the development. So somewhat unusual for a startup company to be acquiring a platform company right. Often happens the other way around and I give lots of credit to Flagship and the Ampersand. They've been shipped together going through that as a team and it's going to be exciting for you for this year. Yeah, actually.
Matt Pillar:A bunch of follow-up questions there, but I want to start with one of the boxes that you had to check and that was the people. And in a company such as you're describing, it's a common refrain that you know the marriage and I see it getting better I want your perspective on it. The marriage of computational biology and computational anything right, like that's the tech folks and the science folks it's a difficult one to officiate, right. So I've heard, you know, I've heard multiple approaches. I've talked to biotech CEOs who are in this space and in the AI space who've talked about, you know, throwing them in a room together, making sure they're in close proximity and they start speaking the same language as a starting point. I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Like, how are you making sure that that box, those people, are the rare breed that can walk both sides of that line right, or at least work together on other side of that line?
Jason Gardner:Yeah, so we start with the business. So we are one company, right, I've got an amp, a sound, a chair, a vision, style, rates and so on, and so you know having our team on site, we now have two sites, right, but certainly together in the same room talking about a science. But also it works both ways, this communication, dialogue. So it's also about the computational biology team sharing what they're doing and our lab-based scientists sharing what they're doing and listening to each other, and those are two different styles. But I think you're right in terms of alluding to the different backgrounds and different cultures. If you're in front of the computer doing all your work on the computer every day, yeah. If you're a scientist in the lab, the pen it's almost two different models, right. I think it's part of my job, part of the leadership team's job, to make sure that we are able to communicate within the company as well and share that knowledge and share that culture together. I think another thing you have to put on the table and say look, this could be a challenge.
Jason Gardner:So let's A recognize that, b think about how we continue to communicate transparently and share information.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, when you look at the talent pool that's available to you to serve those needs, are you seeing change there in terms of, like, what academia is putting out? You know people who are well-versed in both languages, understanding the value of computational, you know coming in outside side and vice versa. Like, do you? You know I mean what? When the concept began, there really wasn't, I'm assuming, an academia, uh, an academic path toward being a computational biologist.
Jason Gardner:yes, so I think what we're seeing now my sense, strong sense is we're actually seeing folks on the comp biology side moving into their second or third roles in industry, so seeing people join earlier stage companies, bringing more experience now from the industry, together with the epidemic track, well, those kind of roles. And so I think there's a very interesting maturation of the talent pool happening right now very quickly, and I think some of that is being accelerated as well by a number of the company changes that we've seen in the sector over the last year. So that's also happening in the biology side as well.
Jason Gardner:And I think that's helping right in terms of how we recruit, you know. Think about talent development.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, Another common refrain around AI and ML is that, like you know, there are obvious benefits and applications happening in terms of speed of discovery and speed of design efficiency. But a question that comes up often in my conversation is what the next application for these technologies is. When you enter the clinic, like because that's where the expenses mount, that's where failure happens quickly. Sometimes not so quickly. Failure happens after a lot of money's invested. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like where, uh, where a company like ampersand as it continues out sort of the clinical continuum where it might be able to leverage some of these technologies to improve efficiencies? Yes, beyond discovery yeah.
Jason Gardner:So you know, I think there's a couple of areas. Uh, it's a great question and I do think there's a couple of areas. It's a great question and I do think it's a very important question for us in industry. Going back to that 90% failure rate number yes, so how do we take clinical data and early translational medicine data and feedback into our user data? It was like a continuum of our life-based data. How can we learn quickly from our medicines early in the clinic versus late in development? And so I actually see a natural opportunity to start applying MSR to our platform and to start machine learning with more molecules, I mean in the clinic, and we definitely intend to do that. I mean I know it's within the flagship ecosystem that pioneering intelligent is so essential. We are a machine learning team within flagship and across flagship. That is a huge area. I'm excited about the announcement this week with the Samsung partnership flagship. There's some of that element within that partnership and clinical trial centers.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, can you share anything in terms of like what a pipeline development plan might look like? Right?
Jason Gardner:Yeah, so that is very exciting. So, as I mentioned, you know building out a platform first, and then we have a built-in fiber platform and then we have projects that are ongoing. We have around a dozen active projects going on across different diseases. What I will tell you first of all is all of those projects have big and iconic propositions clinically. So we've really directed the platform early on Hard, hard problems, not easy, small step changes, modified molecule safety but can we improve both problem-seeking and safety with the same type of hidden molecules in the state, right for molecules on new drugs that are not being used in a broader patient population as possible? So I will say at this point, we are seeing some really nice data in autoimmune potatoes, immuno-oncology. Can we target tumors more effectively? Avoiding side effects is a very powerful mechanism. So we're seeing some very nice data there.
Jason Gardner:So we'll talk more about the portfolio as it evolves, but we think about it from our own core portfolio and then also what we do in partnerships. There are certain areas disease areas where it would be incredibly synergistic to apply the Amsterdam platform and run for some to develop into those areas with a parliament that brings up expertise, potentially, brings thoughts that they want to optimise and send to the right place. So it's natural areas with laughing interest. We're already having some partnership discussions during this week in Chattanooga yeah, I spoke to our meeting, so it seems a lot more. Similar interest we're already having some scholarship discussions during this week yeah, meeting, so it seems a lot more a platform company has all sorts of optionality in terms of partnerships, exits, mergers.
Matt Pillar:You know, optionality is like the name of the game. Do you run sort of as you know, obviously you're in early but looking forward? Are you running kind of fast and loose and looking for opportunities like wherever they might present themselves? Or do you have some sort of an idea, like you know, this is a platform that we could outsource or this is a platform that we could handily stick around forever spinning off products that we, then that we is it opportunity presents itself when you realize it, when you see it.
Jason Gardner:Yeah, so you spend a lot of time thinking about partnerships and initial partnerships. Early partnerships for a platform company are very important, first of all because they have the opportunity to validate it, and then second is to build out projects and programs that potentially wouldn't do. There are categories to come, so we spend a lot of time planning, through storage, how they could look so that we are, I would say, ready and prepared for opportunities, versus being loose and unprepared.
Matt Pillar:I should have known the response I was going to get to that.
Jason Gardner:But maximizing optionality is important. I would say there's no type of partnership, there's no type of deal, structure or therapy together that we would not consider the platform support. That's it. The question is really, in terms of quantity and quality, what we decide to do internally in that next term.
Matt Pillar:Is there, like you know, all indicators not all indicators, but many indicators are kind of pointing to a return on the markets, right, Like things are starting to look better. In a situation like yours, when you're looking for and open to early deals, early platform deals, is there a more ideal sort of market condition for that kind of thing and a less ideal market condition in a less ideal market condition, would it be a scenario where you might go you know what, we're ready, but we could probably strike some better deals if it's six months from now and some of these indicators like inflation and the merger, m&a markets continue to look good and deals are looking better? We're going to kind of hold our cards here a bit.
Matt Pillar:Right. Is that a?
Matt Pillar:fair question to ask. Well, I think it's important.
Jason Gardner:I mean, I think that I'm looking at it a different way, matt which is you know what do you control and what do you not. So we all control the map forces, things that are in the market places where we do control that. So you can think about these potential partnerships when and how it was before. That's why it's important. But I would like to take a step back because as we think about this platform, you must have seen the explosion of antibody drug conjugate partnerships, approvals, M&A acquisition.
Jason Gardner:Antibody drug conjugates are really the core starting point of what we do at Anvisa. Except we're not just working in tumors. Using three classes of pain loads toxic pain loads and 11 tumor target, we're actually able to deliver different types of molecules and to adjust to multiple tissues. So this is like the next generation of antibody drug conjugates. So this whole concept of targeting drugs to the right place is what we need. We see ADC as being a food principle at that, but in a very small target space. That's intolerance. So we have close to 700 targets across different tissues. Yeah, that would be dreadful. So when you think about, you know, the weight of interest in ADCs, the types of market conditions, I find that very interesting. From a microsector perspective within biota, that obviously is very different from macro forces. I think we could talk about high rate pressure and how it plays a role in the industry at large and how innovation, high quality science and location impact with platform companies are incredibly powerful.
Matt Pillar:What's the next big step for Eppers? Obviously you're here. That's a big step when you get back to your day-to-day. This year is going to be exciting.
Jason Gardner:We're going to see more science emerge from the platform. Selecting our first set of lead projects to move forward, to develop candidates this concludes the milestone and then executing on partnerships. We have a lot to do this year. We just acquired a company Obviously did that last week, so building out the antibody discovery capabilities and lots of execution. We are in discussions with both partners and investors about the next chapter. It's all built on science and the story and about it proposition. There's a lot going on.
Matt Pillar:It's great yeah, it is a lot. Your plate is full. Um, another question about that, uh, that acquisition um, whenever you acquire a company, obviously it's it's disruptive. It's good I was, I mean there's yeah, it's there's value, but it's also disruptive, uh, you know, to the, to the mission you were. You were on prior to the acquisition. So give us some color on how you're sort of managing through the integration of this company, maybe even some uh illustration of what that integration is going to look like in terms of physical space and integrating people.
Jason Gardner:Sure. So we had a head start with Amtrak because we had already been working on a distillery campaign. So we had that relationship. We've lapsed it and then we were already applied to success. So we've already been partners here. We had toici together.
Jason Gardner:So both groups working together, pushing about, you know, decision-making communication. So they're based in the Czech Republic, so obviously, time to engagement, they are used to. We are used to working across time zones but working by video conferences, but, you know, really playing that forward and can be overly communicating. And so starting to lay out objectives and plans and it's actually it's early days, it's going well so far, but planning for what could go wrong before it happens, and then being able to communicate, I think it's incredibly important from a culture perspective, and so that's something that we're working on together, powered for this year and beyond. And also I will add that within the flagship ecosystem, that capability is also very powerful being able to generate our own antibodies, not just at Ampersand but also together with other flagship companies as well. I'm going to see this platform really accelerate next year or two.
Jason Gardner:What haven't I covered.
Matt Pillar:If I were a veteran interviewer, what should I have asked you that?
Jason Gardner:I didn't. I think we covered the full landscape here. I think we covered the full landscape here.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, we covered a lot of culture.
Jason Gardner:You either have something great or you're white, yeah and that I get asked a lot is what keeps you awake at night.
Matt Pillar:It's a good question. Yeah, it's always a combination of data and people. Data and people keeps you awake at night. It's a good question.
Jason Gardner:Yeah, it's always a combination of data and people.
Matt Pillar:Data and people keep you up at night.
Jason Gardner:It's always, constantly You're thinking about what will the days look like? How do you recruit for the best talent? How do we compete? How do you build a company? The combination of that is any co-occurring CEO. How do you build a company? The combination of that is any co-occurring CEO is thinking about that. I'm not going to tell you that.
Matt Pillar:When you say data the data that keeps you up at night Be more specific.
Jason Gardner:What's the next data set look like. Are we on track?
Matt Pillar:Not the machine learning, not the data sets that you're using in the application.
Jason Gardner:So the data sets for machine learning. Actually, when we see the data in the lab on these molecules that come out of the M-SAM platform, we almost cannot lose Because, on the one hand, the data from the lab experiments could be positive right, and the molecules would. So, if they're being designed, that's cool, that's great, great for the platform, great for the potential partner. If they don't work, that's actually hugely valuable because that's its platform and the machine like that uses training data sets. They're like gold, yeah, both positive and negative. So as a machine learning platform, your platform gets stronger, both on positive and negative data. The result of the experiments have been run with the right controls.
Matt Pillar:Yeah, that negative data, the failure data, the stuff that doesn't work. Is that largely proprietary?
Jason Gardner:I was just having a conversation Purposefully. Yeah, we actually like to make a couple molecules that we think are not going to work as well, to test the negatives and all hypotheses. Yeah, other than just having a no treatment, if you like control, we have to make a molecule that is designed not to work as well. Yeah, I've been trying to look, that's interesting.
Matt Pillar:I was talking to someone earlier today who was talking about a panel presentation here at this event that addressed that issue that you know, in the public domain there's plenty of success data right, yes, To pull from, but there's very little in the way of, you know, deep failure data and that was acknowledged as a problem as AI and Apple become more pervasive in the process. Yeah, I agree, I agree, pervasive in the process.
Jason Gardner:Yeah, I agree. I think the underreporting of negative data has been with us as an industry for a long time. I think from a culture perspective in terms of building a company, recognizing the importance of getting to no-go decision products through negative data is really tough. I think the best companies are able to recognize and celebrate that and understand how that can be a high quality, very impactful piece. But now you know to go back to the platform machine like these incredible ones have high quality data set feeding back in and the know-how that goes with that.
Matt Pillar:You you framed that question that I should have asked is what, what keeps me up at night, which you know as sort of a, a negative, negative intonation, like a concerned intonation are the things that keep you up at night in a concerned way, the same things that excite you?
Jason Gardner:oh sure yeah, absolutely, and so you know, I think. So. Just to go back to this piece of um, you know, living without ambiguity and optionality can actually drive, I think, great innovation, progress, finding solutions quickly and flagship this is called paranoid optimism Avert the turn. So it exists on a daily basis. Package in the CEO world and it comes to that point where it's just you know you have to be able to. I remember mentors over the years telling me spend time predicting the future, because if you're not as a CEO, nobody else is going to do that as effectively. And trying to do that and also being proud of it kind of both optimistic in the role is very challenging, but super exciting it is. And so sometimes we get exciting data and positive data where we least expect it, and the opposite can be true as well in the industry. But early discovery platform companies at this time, and I think within the Flash ecosystem is a great place to be yeah, that's terrific, all right.
Matt Pillar:So personal question, because paranoia and optimism can both be unhealthy if taken in too large a dose. What would you do to personally like, what do you do to decompress, to make sure that you're you're not taking your paranoia and your and your height home with you and to and to keep your, keep your, you know your sanity?
Jason Gardner:Yeah, simple. Turn up my phone and do it all the time. Yeah, start that. Everything else is straightforward. Very good, yeah.
Matt Pillar:Well, I appreciate the time. This has been very insightful and I enjoyed meeting with you. I thank you for spending. I know there's a lot of demand for your time, so I'm honored that you spent some of it. Oh question Matt. Yeah, I really enjoyed it, thank you.
Jason Gardner:Nice to talk to you. Good to meet you, thanks.
Matt Pillar:I'm Matt Pillar and you just listened to the Business of community of subscribers at bioprocessonline. com Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or anywhere you get your podcasts. You can also subscribe to our never-spammy, always insightful monthly newsletter at bioprocessonline. com/bob. If you have feedback or topic and guest suggestions, hit me up on LinkedIn and let's chat and, as always, thanks for listening.