Business Of Biotech

Emerging From Stealth With Vima Therapeutics' Bernard Ravina, M.D.

• Ben Comer • Episode 278

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On this week's episode of the Business of Biotech, we're speaking with Bernard Ravina, M.D., CEO at Vima Therapeutics, a company that emerged from stealth in May with $60 million Series A financing to develop an oral candidate for dystonia, a movement disorder. Ravina talks about transitioning from government and academic medicine to industry, partnering with Atlas Ventures and defining the company's thesis, the reasons behind working in stealth mode and when to emerge, and the clinical plan and potential for VIM0423.  

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Ben Comer:

Welcome back to the Business of Biotech. I'm Ben Comer, Chief Editor at Life Science Leader, and today I'm speaking with Bernard Ravina MD, CEO at Vima Therapeutics, a company that launched from stealth with a $60 million Series A this past May. Vima is focused on neurological diseases, and the company's first program is an oral treatment in phase one for Dystonia, a movement disorder. Bernard is a Johns Hopkins trained neurologist who also holds a master's degree in biostatistics and epidemiology from University of Pennsylvania. After a decade in government and academia at the NIH and then at the University of Rochester, he crossed over into the biopharmaceutical industry and has worked at Biogen, Voyager Therapeutics, Praxis Precision Medicine, and as an entrepreneur in residence at Atlas Venture, which led to Vima's Series A raise. Bernard is a first-time CEO at Vima, and I'm excited to speak with him about the formation of the company and working in stealth mode, how Vima chose an initial product candidate, how Destonia relates to other neurological disorders, and his plans for the company's future. Thanks so much for being here, Bernard. Thanks, Beth. It's great to talk with you. Thanks for the nice intro.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

I appreciate it.

Ben Comer:

Absolutely. I uh I mentioned your background work at the NIH. Um, would you mind talking a little bit about what you did there?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, happy to. So I was fortunate, uh, as you mentioned in your intro, I finished training. I specialized neurology movement disorder uh in epidemiology and biostatistics. Then I had this opportunity to go to NIH. And as you may be familiar, NIH has two parts. It's got the intramural where you kind of conduct your own research, then the extramural, which actually does the uh outside funding of universities and helps set up research priorities. So uh I had colleagues who had moved there from the University of Pennsylvania, uh senior colleagues. I was a junior guy at the time. Uh, but I had the chance to work in both those parts of NIH. Uh and worked in the intramural side in a very genetics lab uh with a great mentor named Kurt Fishband. Uh and on the kind of external-facing extramural side, I helped set up uh research and centers and clinical trials in Parkinson's. It was it was a wonderful experience. I was there for about five years. And I think kind of one of the key perspectives you get being at NIH is kind of understanding like what are the gaps in research, what are the scientific gaps or the gaps in infrastructure, and you know, what is the government need to do? How can NIH help facilitate progress in those areas?

Ben Comer:

Yeah, did that I'm curious if that, you know, experience in in public health is something that, you know, if there are lessons that have kind of carried through your career since then, or or do you feel like it's more of, you know, we'll we'll talk a little bit about um, you know, your your work at the University of Rochester, but I guess I'm thinking about moving into the industry. I mean, is it something that that you know, are there things you learned at the NIH that have have stayed with you?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, very much so. Because uh I think the key thing that's kind of stayed with me is that perspective on like where are the gaps? What's what's needed? Uh, you know, scientifically, clinically, that I think that's a key perspective coming in the industry. Understand what's going on in the landscape and how that how you can help uh or build a new organization or company uh that can help close those gaps and develop new treatments like that. Absolutely.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um after you left the NIH, you ran a part of the academic medical center at the University of Rochester. Was that uh similar to the work that you did at NIH, or was that something, you know, totally new and different?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

So thematically it was the same. So I've been you know interested in movement disorders and therapeutics, uh in urology kind of broadly. That that's kind of the theme that goes through my career, whether it's uh government, academic, or industry. But going to the University of Rochester again, I was very fortunate, wonderful colleagues, great medical center. And we had a uh a great setup there where uh our department was very focused on clinical research. Uh so we did our own hands-on clinical research with our own studies, patients uh who were participating from the community. But we also had what I kind of call an academic uh CRO. So we helped run studies, you know, for uh for companies. We had multiple study groups that specialize in different disease areas, Parkinson's, Huntington's, epilepsy. And so we would coordinate and organize and run those studies, whether it was industry funded or uh NIH funded or foundation like the Michael J. Fox Foundation. Uh so we had about 75 or 80 people involved there. So that was a great experience that kind of bridged that whole uh world of academic industry and some government funding, collaborating uh to develop new therapeutics and run high-quality trials.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, and it also, I'm sure, created a kind of platform or at least built the fundamentals that you would need to move into industry, which I wanted to ask you about. What kind of triggered that decision? What made you decide that you know it was time to leave the University of Rochester and head over to Biogen, I think, in in 2010?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, that's right. Um, yeah, like that was a great setting. I got a lot of exposure to industry. Uh in the my interest, uh, as I mentioned, kind of carried through neuroscience, specifically movement disorders, and developing new therapies. It's a it was almost a natural move because it really is like the three-legged stool of like you know, scientific breakthroughs in healthcare is is uh is government academia in industry. And I kind of knew that if I really wanted to focus uh on therapeutics development, that I'd move to industry at some point, um was really at the forefront in neuroscience. When I like when I was uh a medical student, there were really very few uh drugs for neurologic diseases. And I remember when the first like interferons came out for the treatment of uh relapsing remitting MS. It's like this is this is it, this is the leading edge. Uh, we're gonna have a lot more. Uh and so, yeah, those are a great place to go for a first industry job, you know, wonderful colleagues who really knew uh neuroscience drug development. So yeah, it was a a great initial step and one that I felt very comfortable with knowing some of those people.

Ben Comer:

Did you was there an appeal to actually see a product go from the early stages of clinical research, you know, all the way into patients? I mean, you could have continued doing clinical, you know, you talked about having to work with, you know, getting to work with private industry, with with government, with foundations conducting clinical research, uh, but it strikes me as you know the real difference being if you're at a company, you're there all the way through, you know, approval, hopefully approval and commercialization.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, that that that's exactly right, Ben. As like, so when you're doing it in an academic setting, like you're collaborating, but you get pieces of it, right? Right. So, you know, a company's doing some things, they're collaborating with you on some things. Exactly to your point, it's like, want to do it right from scratch, see all of it and see it through longitudinally. I I don't think I appreciated, like, you know, coming from academics, like how long that takes, how hard that really is, and what it looks like, you know, from inside a company, from inside a sponsor that's really driving that. But that's exactly the experience I wanted to get.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, and then you found found that out firsthand. You worked as a chief medical officer. You worked in clinical development, but you worked as a chief medical officer at both uh Voyager and Praxis Precision Medicines uh before taking the CEO role at at Vima. Um, what about that transition? What made you want to go from you know a CMO role to um uh you know a CEO role or uh a role that's you know responsible for for company formation and leadership?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah. So you know both those moves going from bi-gen and clinical development to CMO, uh, and then CMO to CEO, like you learn a lot uh along the way, right? And so go from biogen uh to CMO roles, uh going from a kind of mid-sized company with a lot of support to uh companies that were really, really interesting that had programs that I really wanted to work on, but you help build the infrastructure. So you're you know, go from a supported environment to one in which like you're gonna build it, choose the people, uh you know, get all the policies, procedures, and practices in place. Like that's just kind of appealing if you like building things. Um so I spent about 10 years in that CMO role, which I think is one of the best roles in biotech, like being a CMO, running the clinical studies, reviewing the data, that's where the rubber beats the road. But kind of in that capacity, I had the good fortune to work with, I think it was four different CEOs, uh, and do two IPOs. Um and you just you get to see like well, the science of the clinical data are super important. You can't be better than that, but you need everything to come together. You know, you know, you need uh to understand the market, you need to build and support the company, you need to fund it. Um and so I think the thing for me that was motivating was just uh really in uh I don't know if enjoying is the right word, but but really like you know, liking and being intensely interested in how all that comes together, and like you just you synthesize it and you synchronize your science and your fundraising and try and keep those in pace. So it was that kind of big picture. And I think if you if you like the big picture, um the this the CEO role is really um appealing in that one.

Ben Comer:

Did you know that about yourself, like as far back as Biogen or maybe at Voyager? Were you, I mean, at that point, were you looking at those CEOs that you worked with and starting to kind of take notes about things that you know that worked or didn't work with the you know kind of secret knowledge, you know, that you may want to do it yourself one day, or or or did that come more recently?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

So so seems to believe my answer, because I do think there are a lot of people who like who did like think you know they grow up knowing that they want to be a CEO or something. For me, not at all the case. I really liked the clinical side of things. And it was just kind of growing into it, seeing it, and and the realization that like you know, if you want to own one one piece of it, like and be able to really control the direction of that, you kind of need all of it to come together. So it was really it was a much more recent thing over the last few years. And some of the advice uh I got from you know, really smart, experienced people was be rare, you know, careful what you wish for, like especially nowadays. Like now I look back and I think like, well, uh, you know, I guess I had it pretty good, right? Exactly. It's like, yeah, I uh didn't really need to lose more sleep. So yeah.

Ben Comer:

Well, you're a first-time CEO now. What what has that experience been like so far? You know, is there well, I guess what part of the job has surprised you the most about you know being in charge of the whole operation?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, uh that's a great question. I mean, I've been fortunate because uh started this company, incubated it uh with Atlas, and they have a you know really well-developed kind of ecosystem and support network. And uh and so they're really helpful getting a company off the ground, and they're obviously very experienced. Um, I think they that the thing that was probably predictable, but maybe surprising for me is just how much you learn in the course uh of doing this. Uh and also just the point about uh the people part of it. It's the clarity, and you you have it's you know, as the CMO, you um you know, your team is kind of your team, right? They're critically oriented, they know what you're doing. As the CEO, you have a much more diverse team. And your team is uh internal and external in terms of your communication, and so it's kind of the clarity of the vision, clarity around what you're trying to do when you execute, making sure that different audiences kind of all hear the same thing, uh, and that you set the right expectation. So just it's a lot more work than I expected.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, uh incubated uh in Atlas Venture. I was curious how you kind of first got connected with Atlas Venture, and um, you know, what what more could you say about how Vima, you know, came about? You know, what was the catalyst that kind of triggered it and made you know, like, this is it, this is the company that you know I want to start up.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, yeah. So um the it came together really nicely. I knew I had colleagues here at Atlas, uh Dave Grayzel, one of the partners, somebody I know for a long time. And we all kind of know each other through the ecosystem. Uh, and then just meeting the rest of the partnership, it was Claire was a fit, uh very you know, straightforward group. Uh, and then I joined in late 22. Uh, it was fall of 22. And I I asked myself two key questions, uh, which is you know, wait, where's their white space? Where haven't there been new therapeutics developed uh in a while?

Ben Comer:

And of course, in neurology specifically, sorry to interrupt you.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

No, no, not at all. Yeah. In in neuros specifically, and by you know, my heart beat and and movement disorders, I focus on dystonia. And I know those patients that treated them, uh, and I knew there wasn't anything new there for decades. And so the second question I asked is well, you know, where where are there good genetics uh that can clearly help me get confidence that we have the right biological target? And so started diving into Stonian genetics, and we arrived at uh some mechanisms that we'll we'll I'm sure we'll talk about. But it was that clarity that uh clinical need got validated mechanism, uh that really resonated with the Atlas team and later on other investors, and that of course, ability to you know fill the space there in terms of clinical development, uh, so that we can you know fulfill the that unmet clinical need.

Ben Comer:

I I definitely want to get into um into Vima's lead um program, clinical program and uh and product candidate that you're developing. I just want to ask you know one more question just about the startup, which is kind of the the elements of securing that $60 million Series A. You know, the listeners of business of biotech, a lot of them are ambitious, you know, um folks that want to lead companies or want to grow their business. Funding, it's no secret. It's tough to find for early stage companies at the moment. Um, what else could you say just about, you know, you you kind of decided, it sounds like you decided on a mechanism, you decided on a general therapeutic area. How how did you make that how did that funding come in to actually get things moving?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, I mean that's that's one of the great things about working with uh experienced venture group like Atlas. They um, you know, once we had the concept that we were talking about and working, targeting muscarinic cholinergic receptors and convinced that was uh a solid mechanism, we did uh we were able to get seek funding from Atlas, which was uh just a few million dollars initially, and do some key experiments that convinced us that this was a tractable uh approach that we were taking. And then um based on those data, uh in the usual materials you put together, uh, you know, your high-level development plan, your overall strategy, uh, we went out uh and talked with uh other investors, very fortunate. Um, and uh every company is different in that way, but the story really resonated with Access Industries uh and Kanan. And so they joined Atlas uh in the $60 million Series A. And all three are very um you know sophisticated biotech investors who have been real partners, but they also really understand clinical development. Uh, and I think given that our program and approach was moving along very quickly towards clinic where we are now, that was really a great fit for all of us.

Ben Comer:

Do you think it was beneficial for you, uh, you know, in that phase of attracting capital, starting the company, to know those patients, those dystopia or uh um dystonia patients, and be able to kind of talk very specifically about unmet need? I mean, was that and I'm just thinking about other leaders and you know, you're coming from a you know, an academic and government public health, as well as a CMO role. You know, how helpful, I guess, was that in making the case, you know, for fundraising, you know, around this particular target?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, that it's a great question, Ben. I think the answer is very it was burdened the alcohol. You know, there's there hasn't been the reason there's unmet need is because nobody's developed therapeutics for dystonia. And since nobody's developed therapeutics, there's some unknowns. Like, and so being able to speak about those patients uh with real, you know, firsthand understanding, I think goes a long way. And being able to kind of envision and articulate like this is what we would do, this is what success looks like. Uh that that really resonated in that you know, I think uh some of those investors who I mentioned, they they've they really talked about that. It's that it's the vision uh and uh the the background and the ability to execute.

Ben Comer:

Um I want to ask you about your stealth period. Vima, I mentioned in the intro, emerged from stealth uh in in May. You were doing work before that, I think going back to 2023 is what you said. Um we we hear companies, you know, we hear about companies emerging from stealth somewhat regularly. It's not always clear to me, at least, what the specific reasons for being in stealth mode are or or for when you emerge or or don't emerge. Uh can you talk about Vima's stealth period a little bit and just kind of the the decision-making process for for when and why to launch publicly?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah. It's such a good question. It's like one of those things that I've I've learned as uh it and I I never really critically thought about that topic. So that kind of came with the work and assumption, and it's like uh you know, you put the company together and then you go out and tell everybody about it because you want it to know. But you know, you flick that and it's like, well, why? What do you need you know, the the broader public and biotech ecosystem to know and what? Uh and so once I started thinking about that, it's like we had um we're we're hiring a great team, uh, largely kind of from within our venture network and our own network, so as people are known to us. So we didn't need to attract talent. We were well funded, so uh, you know, we weren't uh looking for new funding or partnerships. So question really be I once I thought about it for a while, it's like, well, you know, we need the community to engage as we get closer to phase two, and we're going to be looking to partner with the patient community and ask people to enroll in our studies. So that that was really um kind of the thinking behind it. And so that's why we came out of stealth um just a few months ago.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And I I've thought about it in the past, and I I granted, I'm not totally clear on why some companies come out when they do or or don't come out uh when they do, but it it it seems at least it seemed to me in the past likely that there was a kind of fundraising strategy involved with it. So maybe if you need you know money to make those initial hires or or do those initial experiences, then you know you can't be stealth if you if you want to bring investors on board. So so that that's that's I think a part of it or a big part of it, I would assume.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Absolutely. That's a big part of it. It's uh you know, attracting talent, attracting capital, uh potential partners. And but you know, the the other, another reason to kind of wait on that is the more you know of your story, uh when you're telling it, the better you can tell that. Big part of being a CEO is communicating clearly. And it's like, you know, let me tell you the story when we're a little further along. We know a little bit more about it. Um, but yeah, I think I think those are really the reasons.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, wait till you have a good story to tell, right? What? Uh let's talk a little bit about uh VIM 0423. This is your uh first and lead candidate develop um development program. Um how did you choose that candidate uh for your first development program, Bernard? And and where did it come from?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, so it's a it's a homegrown program. And uh I'll I'll take a quick step back. And so we um got convinced of this mechanism that muscarinic cholinergic receptors were really the key target in the stem. That these patients have never seen an oral therapeutic. They can only have brain surgery or um injections of toxin to weaken muscle. Um and uh so we got convinced of the mechanism that it's a homegrown program. It's actually it's a small molecule approach, it's actually a combination. Um and uh the overall goal is the program is that we know that muscarinic cholinergic receptors, antagonizing them in the brain can work really well. And historically, there are drugs for Parkinson's that target that mechanism, but they've been very poorly tolerated, so they get very little clinical use. So the real kind of next question was how do we make that better? Uh, how do we make it more tolerable, wider therapeutic window, be able to drive the pharmacology in the brake uh to safely get efficacy? And so we arrived at this combination small molecule approach to do that. We're gonna talk uh, you know, in the spirit of like uh telling the story when you know more, we're wrapping up our phase one. And so we'll be talking a lot more about specifics around the mechanism just probably later this year, early next year, but homegrown program uh that really solves that very clear clinical problem.

Ben Comer:

Got it. So um the VIM0423, it targets uh muscarinic, uh cholinergic receptors in the brain. Uh, I know there are people that are listening that are gonna hear muscarinic and think of uh Coruna therapeutics acquired by Bristol Meyer Squibb, you know, for around $13 billion two years ago. Uh they uh Coruna developed a drug that targets muscarinic receptors, uh, but as a treatment for schizophrenia, uh that drug's now approved and commercialized as Cobenfy by BMS. Um is the is the VIM O423 mechanism uh similar uh to to Cobenfy or or different? And and maybe you can you know say a little bit more just about uh musk um muscarinic receptors, you know, as a drug target.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, yeah. It's uh it's a great topic. So it's we've known about muscarate receptors for a very long time. And um, but but there's a hundred years, right?

Ben Comer:

They were identified a hundred years ago.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

I think, yeah, that's right. Uh but you know, like a lot of other targets, like these things come and go, even modalities come and go, and there's been this incredible renaissance led in by schizophrenia uh these developments and schizophrenia. Uh and so uh our approach is related, except it's it's uh kind of the inverse. So uh Cobenfy and other drugs uh being developed for schizophrenia, they agonize uh or enhance activity at musteranic receptors. In movement disorders, it's the flip side, whether it's dystonia or Parkinson's, uh, you antagonize. Uh so we're looking for central antagonism in the periphery to balance that out, uh, to offset uh symptoms to uh adverse effects that are known to be caused by agonism in the periphery. So um, yeah, these are kind of mirror images of each other, and you see that with other neurotransmitters like dopamine, um block dopamine as known antipsychotics, enhancing dopamine improves movement and Parkinson's and other conditions.

Ben Comer:

I see. And you're you're right. There does seem to be kind of different mechanisms, different targets that move in and out of vogue. Um with the muscarinic receptors, is there I'm just curious if there's any kind of if there's like a new technology or some new way to target these receptors that have helped uh enable this, you know, renaissance that that you mentioned or or not?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, it's uh I think it's a couple of things. I think one has been just seeing clinical developments here, and uh knowing that these drugs can work, uh, they target those receptors safely. Uh so that that's been one. Uh that's been years in the making, but I think the other is the ability to be a little bit more selective uh in you know which receptors and where. Uh so I think that that's what's really driving the enhanced safety, and that's a key, key component of our thinking and approach. Got it. Okay.

Ben Comer:

I want to uh just uh dig in a little bit on dystonia. Um uh, you know, I'll have you describe the unmet need, but I I was I'm not sure if there are subtypes of dystonia or if I I think there are obviously more severe cases and and less severe cases, but uh, you know, what would you say about the unmet need and I guess you know the the dystonia patient population broadly?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, so dystonia is an involuntary movement disorder. It leads to it's driven by abnormal signals in the brain, which is why we're targeting those receptors in the brain, but it shows up as involuntary muscle contractions. And those contractions can and do occur in pretty much every part of the body. So people can have uh dystonia in virtually any part of the body. Uh tends to happen in kids and kind of young, uh, really young to adults to midlife is the peak. Uh, and it's very disabling because these movements are painful, uh, and they open they often worsen as people try and kind of do voluntary movements. So uh interfere with their regular function. Um So the need there uh is very clear. There are a couple of approaches to treating it, no orals as we match it. People can have deep brain surgery, which is a kind of brain surgery with indwelling hardware and stimulators and stuff.

Ben Comer:

That would be for the like the most severe cases.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Severe, yeah. And of course, most people don't want to have that. Sure. It's it's so it's uh less than about 3% of people have it. And then the other approach to treating it is repeated injections of botulinum toxin. And so that's the same like kind of Botox that people use for cosmetic purposes. And headaches now, too, right? And headaches. That's right. Uh and actually it can work well. Uh, but here you're injecting it into muscles to weaken them versus treating the underlying cause. And it can work well in some people, but for a lot of people, it's not enough for a kid to widespread injections across multiple areas of the body. So, you know, our our belief and patient community and clinical community clearly support this is that for the about 160,000 people uh who have dystonia and no other neurologic conditions, they would uh choose an oral therapeutic before surgery or repeated injections.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also curious if, you know, in thinking through the launch of this company, getting started, conducting initial experiments, did you find uh, you know, this VIM 0423 candidate and then do some work and figure out kind of like what indication it might work best in? Or did you land on this um dystonia and then go out and find or or produce or you know, or or invent, you know, uh a drug that could treat that? How did that work?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, yeah. We went backwards from uh or you know, I don't know which which way is forward, which way is backwards. So we went from you know clinical and biological understanding to go find uh candidates and develop a drug that would work for that. So we understood the biology and then to you know how are developing VIMO423 to address that versus drug, where does this fit? And one of the really important things we kind of figured out along the way is you you asked, are all these dystonias one thing or are they different? We realized there are genetic dystonias, uh, there are sporadic, no known cause. And then there are dystonias that occur in the setting of other neurologic disorders, like Parkinson's or children with cerebral palsy. What we realize is the biology and the role of muscaretic cholinergic receptors are very similar across those. So the the implication is you know, understanding that biology, one approach that's well tolerated, where you can really drive the doses, could treat all of those. So we start with the 160,000 people who have isolated dystonia, um, but we hope to branch out to uh dystonian Parkinson's, cerebral palsy, and other other areas.

Ben Comer:

Do you think the the the muscarinic receptors are um you know a a good potential for you know other neurological conditions as well, you know, beyond uh dystonia? Do you have you know plans to kind of expand out in the category with a similar target or no?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, well, there's uh there's definitely a role uh in in other clinical areas like tremor, uh tremor in the setting of Parkinson's. Um so I I think as we're seeing in psychiatry like started schizophrenia, moving to Alzheimer's and other areas, we'll we'll see this grow as we get more you know clinical validation and further in development.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, I I also wanted to ask just uh kind of about your uh clinical strategy. Well, first you're you're when do you anticipate going into your first human clinical trials?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Uh right around the end of the year. Uh we're actually we're completing phase one now. So we should have that done by the end of the year. And then we'll go to phase two in isolated Dystonia um by around the end of the year, early next year.

Ben Comer:

Okay. And then what's your um what do you anticipate your your kind of pipeline looking like in a I mean, what are you gonna pursue this candidate kind of up until the late stages of of clinical development? Focus all your energy on that. Do you anticipate starting up new programs with either other molecules or or additional indications? How are you thinking about that at this point?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, really good question. I think uh it's something we you know, I we as a team think about a lot. Like we're very excited about the MO4 and moving this into phase two. Opportunity to be the first oral. As we understand more about the biology and kind of the clinical relevance that you are getting at here, we'll we'll hopefully unlock uh you know more potential programs and applications. But that you know, that remains uh to be seen, and we'll talk about that more in the future. Right. Okay.

Ben Comer:

Um what are your Bernard, what are your top priorities for the next uh let's say 12 months? Uh uh are there, you know, you mentioned getting into the clinic. I assume that's a key, a key milestone that you're working toward right now. Are there are there any other uh priorities that you would mention um uh clinically or you know in terms of business strategy or fundraising?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, we're we're very much focused on clinical execution. So uh wrapping up phase one, uh moving into phase two. Really, this is the first oral drug development program in uh dystonia. Uh so you know, everything else has kind of been devices injectables. So um executing here, partnering with the patient community, um, to you know, really support participation, support our uh understanding of how clinical trials work, uh, and setting expectations there. That that's really what we're focused on. We've got great investors who are supporting us through uh phase two readout. And um, yeah, and then we'll we'll see what's next after that.

Ben Comer:

All right, got it. And well, let me ask this. Uh in terms of a lot, you know, a fate, let's just say a phase three trial, given you know what you know about the the dystonia population, like how long how large do you think, and how long of a trial, but how large of a trial do you think that would need to be in phase three?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, so one one of the nice things uh that's great for drug development about uh this approach in Dystonia is you can see treatment benefit in just a few months and kind of get a maximal treatment uh benefit we expect in you know three to four months. The trials aren't very long. So it's recruitment time uh followed by you know four months on drug. Uh it's a uh sample sizes. We'll be talking more about the the phase two and and uh future phase threes, but these aren't huge studies, and even phase threes have like with the toxins have typically been around the 200 patient range. So these are manageable, not too long clinical development studies, unlike disease modification or you know, looking for you know, rate of decline in Alzheimer's disease. Those are those are challenging, longer studies to conduct.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, and I I realize it's early, uh early days uh in the development of this product, but do you have a I assume that it will be administered chronically for patients? Is that right? Do you have a sense of like what the dosing will look like yet? That's right.

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, we expect this to be you know once a day dosing and it chronic like because you want to you know keep the drug on the receptors and keep that treatment effect going. Got it. Okay.

Ben Comer:

Um, my final question for you, uh, Bernard, is there any advice that you'd like to give to listeners who are perhaps working in academia, but maybe you know, considering a jump into the life science industry, or or maybe, you know, they have a a really great invention or something that they're interested in in academia that they want to form a company around, you know, uh what would you tell them?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, so uh it's interesting. A lot a lot of my colleagues from academics are are interested in an industry. And uh, you know, the the thing I tell them, I really like it. There's a learning curve. I think a couple of things is, you know, for kind of younger researchers, is like, you know, complete your training, really have like a body of knowledge, kind of skill set that you can help contribute and plug in. Uh, and then you'll, you know, you'll grow once you get into an industry role and you can kind of differentiate, learn new things there. But I think it's really important that, especially on the clinical research side, to have a strong skill set coming in. Uh, and then the other thing that I I uh tell uh colleagues and people who are interested in moving into industry is culture really matters. Uh like you know, if you're working at one academic medical big academic medical center, Hopkins and Harvard are probably more similar than different. But you know, company to company, you know, little startup, mid-sized company, those are those are very different. So really, you know, really pay attention to culture and colleagues.

Ben Comer:

Yeah, well, that that makes me want to ask uh uh an additional last question, if it's okay, uh, which is you know, you talked about your um that you like to build things, you're you're building a brand new company, you've made some of your, you know, your early hires. What what is your approach to to finding people to that you're that you want to work with, that you want to hire? Um obviously you're looking for really talented people, you know, that that can bring, you know, perhaps a skill that that isn't in the company yet. But is there anything else you would say uh everybody wants good people to work at their company? What is there anything that you would say specifically about kind of what you look for in whether it's you know an executive team or or just anyone that you're hiring to come work at Vima?

Bernard Ravina, M.D.:

Yeah, yeah, and it's it's right. Choosing our colleagues is one of the hardest things we do. Like we're not that good at it, right? Like interview people, like the you know, predictive value isn't that great. So what one of the things we've emphasized, we're small, so it's easier, uh, but is kind of within that work, you know, people we know, or somebody else we, you know, a colleague of ours has worked with them and like we know their style. And I think the kind of number one thing I want um is the focus on the the work and the purpose in a low ego kind of environment, like focus on getting it right, not being right. Um, and so you can get some very high-drive people who really want to look. It's great. Um, but uh uh our our team in particular really likes to focus on collaboration, understanding, and getting it right.

Ben Comer:

Bernard, thank you so much for coming on the show. Oh, it's been a pleasure. Really appreciate it talking with it. We've been speaking with Bernard Ravina, CEO at Vima Therapeutics. I'm Ben Comer, and you've just listened to the Business of Biotech. Find us and subscribe anywhere you listen to podcasts, and be sure to check out our new weekly video cast of these conversations every Monday under the Business of Biotech tab at life scienceleader.com. We'll see you next week, and thanks as always for listening.

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