The Secret to Constructive Co-Parenting: Establishing Key Pillars for Success Post-Divorce

Join us as we sit down with Family Counselor, Sandra Kwesell, to discuss the key pillars to successful and constructive co-parenting. In this podcast episode, Sandra discusses the following:

 •    Common issues that co-parents run into as they adjust to new dynamics.
 •    How to separate your relationship with your ex from your child’s relationship with their parent and move forward from past hurts.
 •    Unique co-parenting considerations for custodial and non-custodial parents. 
 •    How co-parents can identify challenges that need work, but stay focused on shared goals.
 •    How to communicate with children in a way that mitigates damage and honors their relationship with both parents.
 •    …and much more!

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

If you're interested in getting in touch with Sandra, you can do so by visiting her website: https://www.pillarsforsuccess.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.

Steve Altishin  
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today, we have family counselor and author, Sandy Kwesell, to talk about the secret to constructive co-parenting in establishing key pillars for success, post divorce. So Sandy, how you doing today?

Sandra Kwesell  
Just fine. And I'm just excited about being part of this conversation.

Steve Altishin  
I am too, this is gonna be a good one. Something that we had a lot of co parenting Facebook allies, and in various kinds of subjects. But I really like the concept of cooperative, constructive co-parenting because it doesn't really exist very much sometimes. And that's first obvious question I'm gonna ask out the door is, you know, co parenting is really hard, isn't it?

Sandra Kwesell  
Yes, caring for someone else, as in the term co parenting, we are not only individual adults, we are also the products of our own parenting of how our parents parented us and the childhoods that we survived and celebrated. And so we bring that with us to all of our other experiences, whether we're aware or not, the degree to which you are aware of it, is the degree to which you can be more in control of it, and nobody has had the perfect childhood. So we bring some silk wrap suitcases and we bring some baggage.

Steve Altishin  
No question about that. 

Sandra Kwesell  
And the degree to which we are aware of the baggage is the degree to which we can be in control of it. The problem is not the baggage as much as it is we are not aware of its effects on us.

Steve Altishin  
That is a great bit of insight. Because you know, we're a law firm, we do family law and get a lot of people talking about the problem. They're talking about the bag, talking about what the other person did, talking about how the divorce is so hard talking about all of those things. And I imagine you've gotten a lot of that from both sides, because there's the person with the custody of the kids. And, you know, not always the wife, but a lot person, you know, not in custody, not always the father but a lot. And they, they tend to see things differently, don't they?

Sandra Kwesell  
Yes, they do. And depending on what their experience has been within the legal system, within their extended families, whether there's moms and dads still in grandparent aged people who are still involved and feeling supportive or feeling critical of what's going on in the marriage and in the relationship. I mean, there are so many additional factors that we sort of overlook when we're trying to understand and cope, what's going on in our lives. So there are many contributing factors to the stresses that families go through. When imbalance occurs and their relationships.

Steve Altishin  
I was reading or listening to one of your, your, I think maybe podcasts or reading a blog that you did, where you talked about. That's only part of the story is the parents. But that's not the whole story. Because you you talk about where children get involved. Yes, that's a whole new lens, they don't see necessarily what's going on through the lens that the adults it gone on.

Sandra Kwesell  
They don't have the maturity to do it. They don't have life experiences to do it. They don't have brain development to be able to do it. Children are children and they're more concrete thinkers than they are planners and, and things along those lines. Overall, each person brings their own unique self, there are developmental levels, every human being has different developmental levels they have to ages as you would need to. We have our logical age based on the year of our birth. And then we have developmental age, based on where we are at in terms of our growth and our life experiences. And then that breaks down to different areas of growth. Also, it's your physical growth, your speech and language growth, your emotional growth. You or social growth, it just goes on and on and on. But without getting into the complexity of it, I just want you to appreciate that what happens in relationships, whether they're going well, or whether they're experiencing frustration and loss is a result of all of those factors.

Steve Altishin  
I imagine that these factors that you talk about whoever put it, they get changed, even in a divorce. Because people, the divorce itself is an event that can change how people think

Sandra Kwesell  
I would refer to the divorce more as a trauma than an event. Yeah, yeah. Because it has a dramatic impact on everyone who is involved. And regardless of how you got into the marriage, regardless of what your dreams and expectations were, and how you feel they were fulfilled, Something blew up, something fell apart. And here you are, without any skills, rules and tools to begin to try to understand what's happening and get control over it and maybe find healing. I mean, if you and I were in a car accident, and could have potentially been crippled, it decided to Oh, yeah, we'll have that surgery, the outcomes are different depending on the course of action that you take. So there's a lot of damage that has occurred in the relationships. And maybe some of it was part of the formulation of the relationships, it was just on the undersurface of what the relationship was. But gradually, under the stresses of living life, and those things that we covered up not intentionally, we do it to survive and thrive in our lives, they begin to come forward. And it can be something as simple as that. But I

Steve Altishin  
love what you said, I actually love to things you just burst about the analogy to the car accident, we also do some personal injury, our personal injury attorney talks a lot about the first thing he has a client do is it, you know, have come to him and have him start doing stuff. It's to go to the doctor. And it's that idea of healing yourself from, you know, an accident from a cataclysmic event. And this is sort of like that. And then what you said, and this is where I want to get into kind of a heart of our talk is they don't necessarily have parents the skills to cope with this whole group of new stuff they have to do. Yes, when pressure. And so let's talk about that. Because that really is sort of at the heart, I think what our today's topic is, and, you know, I'm going to call it a secret to constructive co parenting, you know, and establishing key pillars for success. So feels to me like this the time does, let's talk about some of those pillars, maybe in the skill that you can help people with, to deal with them.

Sandra Kwesell  
Yes, yes. So I'm going to without naming pillars at first, I'm going to just give you some basic principles that I pulled out of the pillars for success for this today's conversation. And so one of the points is, kids don't think about behavior, they don't think about relationships, they mostly think about what they need and what they want. And they also think about how they're gonna get it. So children developmentally are much more self centered, much more, the word is egocentric, and they focus on themselves, partly because of brain development. That's as far as they've gone, partly because of life's experiences. They came into the world, this wonderful, uniform little organism, and it's been a focus on them and a focus on them. So that's kind of where their world is, along with the limitations of their cognitive development when they're very young. So kids are very self centered. And that's not unusual. On the other hand, I bet you if I said to you, I'll give you a minute and a half, namely five people who you think are self centered, and they're over the age of 30, or 20, or you know, whatever. You know, for some of us, we get past that. So my point is that we bring who we are, we bring our experiences in life we bring the skills that we do have and the skills that we are lacking into our relationships, into challenges we face, in our relationships, in our careers and all of that. And depending on where we're at with that, it has huge implications for how we're able to resolve it. So for the most part, I'm sure as your agencies work with families who have or adults who are getting divorced. I'm sure you have seen a broad array Change. You've got a bully wife or the bully husband who says it's this way, and I'm not talking about it, it's this way or the highway, or I'm gonna get myself in. And then there's others who Keep massaging it and how can we save it and they end up back in tears. And they blame the spouse for while then they say, oh, yeah, but look when I never did. And so it's as much a psychological experience as it is legal experience, as I'm sure you would agree.

Steve Altishin  
Oh, yeah. Well, we see a lot of is anger, flat out anger? And from both parents? How, how can they resolve them? Seems to be if they could get past the anger, that would be a big step.

Sandra Kwesell  
Well, you are, well, I thought you were and stuck with you. And I'm stuck with the fact that you're going to try and SAP me of all of our assets that you know, yeah, I'm angry. You bet. I'm angry. I'm angry. Yes.

Steve Altishin  
The so how do you know?

Sandra Kwesell  
It wasn't the way I thought it was going to? Look? Where? How do you get past that? Yeah. Well, one of the things we're talking about is just some basic foundational concepts that I asked people to take a look at, in themselves. And as they parent their children, so some of the thoughts are one of them is their developmental age, which breaks down into many subcategories, their emotional development, their social development, their physical development, their, you know, it just goes on and on into every area of development. And to totally understand the human being and what's going on in relationships, it's important to understand how those factors are impacting the quality of the relationship, the ability to problem solve, the ability to be open and honest and be as good a listener as the one who's doing all the talking and demanding. And so keeping in mind that everybody has a stake a tos, I think, as a principle for understanding human interactions. The other thing is, depending on how we're feeling, and our level of frustration, we act and react to one another very differently, very differently. So you and I are being very polite, well accepted conversation here respecting each other. If something went awry about that, if I found out afterward that you quoted the local newspaper saying I could barely finish the talk, whether she didn't know what he was talking about, you know, I might have a different attitude about that. So what I'm saying is, other factor pretty much affects what's going on in a relationship. And it's important, but kids don't think about behavior. And kids don't think about relationships. Those are higher cognitive processes, and their brains don't work that way. They mostly think about what they need and want, and how they're going to get it. Well, when you talk about couples that are coming for divorce steps toward divorce, does that sound familiar? What they need? They're gonna get it, it comes down to those basic survival things. And also who's going to win this war? Because I married? I thought you were the nicest guy. And now all of a sudden, we're in World Wars. Three. And, and I want to win that war, because you've ruined my life.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah. It's the reason the judge in courts. On the legal side, always say that the dentist, best interest of the child is first. But they can only really order that in a legal sense. And you can't order someone to act their age. That's their developmental age, or they're really,

Sandra Kwesell  
No, you can't order someone to do that. But in my field, you can respond to someone more productively. And I would think that a lot of other fields, including business and legal fields, if you understood where they're at, so how many times do people appear in a court situation? And they don't really grasp conversations about or what the judge is trying to impart to them that they should be considering? It's beyond them? Because they can't see past their own? Yes.

Steve Altishin  
So how does the therapist get past them?

Sandra Kwesell  
Help them? Well, it can be different with different people. The techniques are different with different people. Sometimes I just asked the question, I'll just say like, I just did really with you. I might say, let me repeat that and tell me if you're Am I understanding you correctly? And so sometimes, and it's really because I do want to know, but it's also because it helps the person rethink Add area and what it is. And the other thing that I'll also bring up. So let's say, let's say it's a woman who is going through a divorce, and she's mad, and she's angry, and she's got 152 ways he has messed her life and bad decisions he's made. And I say to her, but you want and they've got kids, and they're fighting over the kids. And I might say to her, but you're trying to come to a place where you can have a productive conversation, or somehow get to a place where you can talk about this other thing, which is sharing the parenting of the kids and not losing your children. How are we going to do that? What do you think would be most effective to try to find their own choices? And I guide them along the way? And the reason I do that is because most people will do what they think they it's an unconscious process. You can listen to me, I can help you sort through within facts, different feelings. But when you see your axe, and you haven't seen your kid for the last month, you're going to do what comes right out. Yes. So which and you're not going to say, you know, Susie, I'd like to talk to you. It's been four weeks since I've seen Bobby. And I don't want to have to go to the court to have a legal decree to make this happen. I was hoping you and I could make that decision. So what are we going to do? Otherwise, I'm going to take it back to court and and make sure that baboons rights, our son, Bobby's rights are respected and his needs, and mine too. So if people choice, is there a very powerful mechanism to get people to rethink things? Or to realize that behind the the choice, opportunity is, I'm not messing around? Where you're going to react to these choices, or I will take whatever steps I need to take to make this happen. legal steps.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah, no, I love that idea of giving choices, because a lot of divorce, co parenting sometimes ends up with the parents, or at least one of the feeling, they have no choice. Like they're they're always being backed into a wall. And there's no other choice. But so I like that idea of of you, when you create a choice, you create a path out of the bad situation.

Sandra Kwesell  
And part of the explanation of the choice also is because we're working together to do this, if we could have worked together to solve a lot of other challenges we faced, we wouldn't be in this court right now. So clearly, that's not an area of strength for us. But because we have this choice, we also now have the extra challenge to be able to let go of some of it. So that we both walk away feeling that we have compromised in a way that we are accepting of what our request looks like now, how it's modified so that we can both accept it. It's not either one of us the way we wanted it to be. But if we would have been good at that we probably wouldn't be in this court right now. Or

Steve Altishin  
that is the truth. And that's what you do, I'm assuming, as a family counselor is. And that gets to sort of the second part of what we're talking about, and a book you're on. It's the the pillars to create that success. And so if I'm coming in to see you, what are taught to you, what sort of, you know, things can you do? What's your approach, I should ask?

Sandra Kwesell  
A lot of people come to me because their kids are driving them nuts and their kids. That would be like coming to me with a fever. But we really don't know what the diagnosis is. So why are there kids driving are two years old, or you know, 18 years old, we have to get to the bottom of that. And generally, it's not just lying within the kid. It's an effect of a lot of variables going on in that family. But what I did learn is so I have a training that I put together for parents who are working with kids, not just parents, parents and professionals who are working with kids. It's based on the chronological years, but it's actually the foundation of it is based on developmental levels. So if you and I had a long enough conversation, I could probably give you some feedback about your developmental levels. And I'm the same way by the way, all human beings, what I did was I learned there wasn't a friendly, tired, angry parent anywhere on planet earth who wanted to read 150 page book. So what I created was just a very short you can see it's a small book. It's not even the size of a typical book. And it goes through nine basic ideas having to do with human development and is written in everyday language. That's the other thing is that I was impressed throughout my college and postgraduate education with the complexity of vocabulary words that were like made up in Mars. But I also learned their parents and people involved in relationship issues or any other major issues, don't understand that language anyway, makes the professionals feel really good about themselves. Because boy, they really got fancy words, they're, well don't know what to do about it. So what I've done is I've taken all of that out of my training, and it's all written in the English language, not in not in professional ease. And then the other thing that goes along with it, and these are both available on Amazon, and parents can do this right on their own is a painting workbook, which takes the concepts in this and allows you to practice that in here. And so that's what this is about. Now, with all this got out in the last couple of several years of our history, people don't want to sit down anymore, right, they need to have an electron, they need to be plugged in somewhere electronically. And they don't want to have the group experience and which is very therapeutic, then it's pretty powerful. What else goes on in the discussion in the classroom, dealing with a lot more than just content in a book. So I'm going to be now developing an online training that people can sit and stare at their screen, no human contact, really, except whatever they vision through the screen. And but that seems to be where planet Earth is these days? Yeah. Well, I still give the training personally, for people who I have as clients, and also for agencies who requested, but I'm also getting ready because things are getting even more rigid in terms of electronics.

Steve Altishin  
My technical age is, I don't know, 910.

Sandra Kwesell  
really grown up and mature. I think my technical range is somewhere between one and a half and two and a half years of age. Yeah.

Steve Altishin  
The Well, this was really cool. This was a great conversation. And thank you so much for being here. It really was good to hear. You know, some people say obvious, but it's not obvious because people don't ever put it into play. And then you said you got Oh, of course, you know that that makes sense. And it's so thank you, because it's not easy to talk about subject like this and come out with someone like me going well, that makes sense. You did it.

Sandra Kwesell  
So to go into it, I could give you the most sophisticated research sentences to explain, which would be unintelligible to you. Or I could just say it in everyday English, and explain to you their insight into understanding human behavior, not just children's behavior.

Steve Altishin  
Absolutely. And that gets people farther. It really does. We're not all there. It's funny. A lot of professionals and attorneys do this as well use jargon and legalese in the attorneys, which they just expect other people to understand. Right? But they don't because they didn't go to school for 42 years in one subject. And you did. And you know, those and you know what they mean? And you know what they mean in English. So that's kind of cool. 

Sandra Kwesell  
And I also know that people don't benefit in the best possible way unless you say it in English.

Steve Altishin  
Yeah. Yep, exactly. So again, thank you so much, Sandy, for sitting down and talking to us today. And really want to thank you for doing it. My pleasure. Thank you and everyone else. Thank you for joining us today. For anyone that has further questions on today's topic. You can post it here and we can get you connected with Sandy. Or you can go on her website or find her books Amazon that she said so until then everybody stay safe, stay happy and be well.

Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Landerholm Family Law and Pacific Cascade Family Law, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at landerholmlaw.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.