In this episode, we sit down with Family Law Attorney, Kimberly Brown, to discuss the impact that divorce can have with virtually everything in your life, such as your relationship with your kids, your family, your home, and yourself, and how you can mentally prepare for and embrace those changes. In this interview, Kimberly touches on how divorce might have an impact on the following:
• Your Relationship with Your Children
• Your Relationship with Your Home.
• Your Relationship with Your Finances
• Your Relationship with Your Family
• Your Relationship with Your Friends
• Your Relationship with Your Community
• Your Relationship with Yourself
If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
In this episode, we sit down with Family Law Attorney, Kimberly Brown, to discuss the impact that divorce can have with virtually everything in your life, such as your relationship with your kids, your family, your home, and yourself, and how you can mentally prepare for and embrace those changes. In this interview, Kimberly touches on how divorce might have an impact on the following:
• Your Relationship with Your Children
• Your Relationship with Your Home.
• Your Relationship with Your Finances
• Your Relationship with Your Family
• Your Relationship with Your Friends
• Your Relationship with Your Community
• Your Relationship with Yourself
If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.
Steve Altishin
Welcome, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today we have one of our family law attorneys, Kimberly Brown, to talk about how a divorce changes the relationship you have with, well, everything. Kimberly, how are you doing today?
Kimberly Brown
I am well, I am well, I'm sorry that we're a little late. It's my computer's fault. So I'm a little stressed. But I am I'm doing really well. Thank you.
Steve Altishin
I feel like computers are like children, they never do what you ask them to do. So for folks who have not yet seen you here, which can't be many, could you just give us a little bit of information about yourself?
Kimberly Brown
Sure. Kimberly Brown is my name. I've been a lawyer for this is my 25th year of being a lawyer. I've been a family law lawyer the whole time that I've been practicing. And prior to that I did some work with legal services to the poor. I love being a lawyer. I love being a family law lawyer. And I appreciate these opportunities to chat with everybody.
Steve Altishin
Oh, right. I do too. And this one, you made a bold statement here on this thing, you know, changes every relationship. That's a lot of stuff going on. I mean, we understand, obviously changes the relationship of your ex spouse. But we were talking and you said you advise your clients to prepare for changes in every relationship they have in their lives. Why is that so important to understand?
Kimberly Brown
Well, I think that one of the things that we don't think about a lot is that we have this cultural expectation about what marriage is, what it means. What's it supposed to look like you're supposed to stay together forever. We especially women are raised with the Cinderella fairy tale kind of expectation. But we don't go into a marriage or a relationship, a significant relationship of any kind, with the idea that one day will break up, we go into a relationship that is going to be forever. And so we form relationships with our spouse, regarding how we're going to be with each other, how we're going to relate to our friends, when we have children, how our children are going to be raised, that's relationship. And we have relationships with their family, and they have relationships with our family. And we make money decisions and how we handle money together. And and then you end that relationship divorce, separation, if you were in a domestic partnership of some sort. And all of those relationships, and many more are affected by the separation. Yeah, you change your spouse, significant other changes, and those changes, and how you're going to raise your children all affect those relationships will change all of those other relationships, the families, how you're going to handle money, how you're going to be around your house, all of that stuff, is now have to be reconfigured in your life in some fashion. Yeah.
Steve Altishin
So let's start with the kids. What are sort of the major relationship changes that you will have with your children following a divorce?
Kimberly Brown
Well, first of all, remember that your children are changing tip. I mean, one of the things I think that a lot of times is as adults as as we're going through changes in our relationships, we forget that these children that we've brought into the world adopted whatever way that they came to us. have relationships with us have expectations with us. And so when when the parents separate and start the divorce proceedings, or the ending of the relationship proceedings, that child has questions, that has concerns has anxiety, how they interact with you will change which of course then requires you to change how you respond to this child's expectations, anxiety and all the rest of that. That's part of of the I think that's the easiest part to explain about how relationships change. However, when you separate Write from the other parent, parents, usually co parent, there may be a primary care who does more of the parenting or says, stay at home parents, but you co parent in a way of wait till your mom gets home. And I tell her is the easiest example. But you make decisions together and you sort of have roles in that relationship with the kids and the kids know who to ask for, for if they want to go ice hockey, or if they want to go paddle in a pool or, or if they want to play games on the video, those are examples. But that now goes and you are on your own. And you have when the kids are in your care, you have to be all of the roles that you and your partner were together, all of a sudden, you're the only person in that household with those children at the times that you have them. So you've got them changing, you're changing, the configuration of the family has changed. And so now we have to figure out, how are we going to be in relationship with one another, the kids in you in a new way? It's not all brand new, of course, we've had these kids for a year 15 depending on their ages, but But it's new. And it's different than when you were together and co parenting with somebody else.
Steve Altishin
Oh, yeah. You were kind of talking about the home there for a second. And it made me remember that you also talked about, and this is something that kind of struck me when you said it, well, you know, your relationship with your home will change. And I thought that was interesting. How does that go?
Kimberly Brown
Well, think about it. When you bought your home, if you bought it with your spouse, this was a home that the two of you agreed would be the best for both of you, there may have been something that was way more important to you that you found in this house that your spouse didn't necessarily find. Or it may be that the yard was just the best thing, we have to have this house because we have an acre of land and some of the other stuff that you might have wanted was sort of not as important. And then at the separation somebody has, somebody is going to leave the house, if not both of you, if you're the one staying in the home. Now all of a sudden, all of the tasks chores around the house are yours. The house holds memories of the intention when you bought this house was it gonna be your forever home, your retirement on, kids are gonna grow up and and we're gonna be here happily ever after? Well, it's not happily ever after anymore. And so was it more there twice to have this house and you're staying in it, because financially, it's better for you to stay in it. Or it's better for the children to be able to stay in it so that they can finish their high school or grade school or whatever. So it's like the house, the house has its role and its position in your relationship. And all of a sudden, it's now yours. Only. And if you were the one that loved this house, you just loved this house. But you can't, you don't you don't want to stay there, then you move out and that house becomes I think you just sort of pining for the house in a way differently than you would pined for, you know, the relationship with your with your ex spouse or whatever. But there's still that yearning. This was the perfect house, I bought this. I've put all this love and energy into it. And now it was taken away from me. So, you know, there's a burden and a loss to change.
Steve Altishin
Yeah, it's wide. I know you've talked about this a lot. It's hard sometimes to talk to your client about not taking the house because it's a terrible financial deal. But that's, like you said, that's not necessarily what they're looking at when they want that house.
Kimberly Brown
Right,right. It's their, it's, I think so many people that especially first time owners, but even even as you get older and you buy your second house, and it's like a step up from your first house, you know, your little poor when you buy your first house a little bit more successfully buy a second house. But but there's this there's, for some reason, what happens to us when we're separating and in a divorce. We want to cling on two things that I think we do this in in almost any relationship, I shouldn't make it just a divorce. But I think we just think a little harder in a divorce or separation proceeding to the status quo. If we have to have to let the house go if we have to sell it because neither one of us is going to have a good financial deal or if you're going to keep it because you want to check oh, I want this house. And and and then you know I say you have this mortgage, there's no equity in it. How are you going to pay for it if all of those things ended? So I don't care. This is my house. I'm not giving it up.
Steve Altishin
Yeah. I was just going to say, it seems like there's jealousy also, cause it's like, there's another house now. That's where the infidelity was. It's my house now. There's another house my children like.
Kimberly Brown
It's, you know, it's interesting you put infidelity there. Where I find, I mean, there is some, especially on houses, but one of the things that always comes up is, if the ex gets a new car, how can they get that afford that new car, that whatever they looked up on the internet, the amount of the money is, and I'm still driving the 2008, Honda Accord? And you are jealous about the car, because that seems more important.
Steve Altishin
Well, that's the other relationship that you had talked about that people really need to understand this, they are going to change their relationship with their finances.
Kimberly Brown
Right, right. Right, I think that it's the hardest part for people to to come to terms with. When you are together, you have your income of 50,000, their income of 25,000. And together you have $75,000, that's the 100% of the monies that are available for you to for your house for your car payments for your children's education, clothing, food, electricity, and 100% of is 75,000. When you separate whether you're the spouse owning 50, or earning 50,000, or the spouse earning 25,000, you no longer have 75,000 and, and there are certain kinds of fixed costs. A mortgage doesn't change, if you're staying in the house, it's 1200 2400, whatever it is, but But 100% helped make you helped enable you to make that payment 1200 or 20 425,000, or 50,000, you still have the same payment, but you don't have 100%, that was the decision to going in to buying that house. And so how you feel about money is, is always a stress in most most marriages, there's, there's quite a lot of stress around around money and how you spend it. But losing some of that is is and the stress of having to afford everything. Without that 100% of the monies, changes how you are in relationship with your own wages, with your own ability to afford things. Some people become very fearful around money. And it's like they become like squirrels and they stored away for the winter, depriving themselves of things so that they have some money for the winter. But which never comes I mean, the winter never comes. But they're still storing. And then other people have the opposite reaction of I don't have any money, let's spend it all. And so you know, and there are people who just figure it out in some way and just do with do the same with less. But it's always a different way of being when you don't have 100% You only have 25% or 37% or whatever. Yeah.
Steve Altishin
Even the retirement, that means that the golden years are changed for them. I mean, it's you're right, it's just all these different things. Earlier you talked about not just you and your kids, but your family. Let's talk about that. Because you do see that a lot. The relationships in your family, you know, beyond your spouse, and kids can really change.
Kimberly Brown
Yeah. I always say that my family likes my spouse better than they liked me. You know, I have a wonderful spouse. And if we separated, I think I'd be hard pressed to think that they would just stay in relationship only with me and choose my side. That's what I'm saying when I say that there's a different relationship when when people separate breakup, they want their team, they want their side, and they want their side to be on with them and to to feel just as angry or hurt or disappointed with the spouse of forming significant other. And yet, if you've been together especially, you know longer than a week, the relationship that your spouse has formed with the family is their relationship and it's actually really separate from you. And so they may not want to lose that relationship with the other person. They they may have fun fishing trips with them and they still want to go fishing with that person or they love to go and do quilting at Pioneer School. But you know, and those activities, bonds them with family members and they still want to carry those out. And over and over again. I see people be so hurt and so angry, my mom still talks to my ex, my sister and my ex, still go to movies together. And it's a it's a divorce sometimes becomes a win or lose situation. We, we, especially as Americans, as people, for the United States, we have this kind of winning mentality, we have to win, we have to prevail. And there's never a winning side and divorce. It's, it's just, it's just can you what's the best you can do for yourself and your children in terms of taking care of each other, emotionally and whatnot. But we want to win, and the best way we can see about winning is my family's cutting you out. Right? And when that doesn't happen, we feel like, somehow or another there's, we've lost? Yeah.
Steve Altishin
Well, and on the other side, you know, I like golfing with my brother in law. Now I can't, so you know, it feels like you're losing someone.
Kimberly Brown
Right, it's very painful when I mean, it's so funny to me. Because I say to you, I hear I hear from the spouse that says, my mom still does this, or my brother still does that. It is the same, I tried to call my mother in law, I tried to call my father in law, and we always, you know, went golfing together and now he doesn't want to golf with me anymore. Or she doesn't want to golf with me anymore. And, and so there's just all this hurt, which comes into you, which then affects all of these other relationships, we're talking about your relationships, your spouse relationship with your kids, the relationship with the house, you know, you always hosted the Thanksgiving or Christmas event. Now, nobody wants to come to your house. Yeah, well, that's, that's, that's hurtful, you know, and understandable on all these other parts, it's awkward to have those relationships continue. And it just compounds. And so I really recommend that to every client that comes into my office, Steve, I recommend they get into therapy, not because I think that they are mentally ill or because I think there's something wrong with them or anything like that. But because so much change is happening in every aspect of your life, because for some reason the relationship has ended. And you need to be able to have somebody help you work through the anger work through the mostly I think it's not, I think it's grief. I don't you know, I don't think it's great. I don't think it's rage, it's grief. And that grief impacts everything. And so you need to have somebody who's trained and licensed, who knows how to help you separate out what's grief? And how's grief affecting that? And what is it that you want to be the relationship in the future? How are you going to co parent with the spouse, because you have kids together, you're going to be in relationship together? How are you going to co parent together in a way that is healthy for the children healthy for you, and healthy for the other side. And sometimes you have to be the healthier one because the other side's not going to be the healthy one. They're not doing therapy or whatever. And so you need somebody to help you learn how to reform the relationship in a way that makes you able to go to see the spouse to exchange the children to talk to the spouse about how well your child did at a basketball game. You know, and the therapist can help you with that they you know, they can help you with learning to re to re configure your budget because your finances are less learning to be grateful for what little you have. And if they got a new car and you're still the 2008 accord that a court has gotten us for 15 years Aren't you pleased that you have a car that's that selfie I'm using that's that's kind of a simplification, but you know, you have to learn about these these ways of being in a new relationship with everything.
Steve Altishin
Oh my gosh, and everything is right. It feels like dropping a stone, you know, in a lake it like a ripple effect. Everything you've described, expanding your universe of relationships. And I mean, even your friends, I mean exactly to make big changes because you know, now they have to make really tough decisions.
Kimberly Brown
Right? Right. Who's gonna get invited out? The next time you do your your family, you know, your best friends you get to dinner together and and there's eight of you and you always go to dinner. Well, that's good. Number eight, it's a solid, all even number. One of you is not going to be invited to that because the other person doesn't want you there or whatever. And often, neither of you are going to be there because they don't want to make a choice. But even more often. Friends come from relationships that that you or your spouse have separate from one another you're you I work with Steve, you're my friend, because I met you and here at work and, and you and I've had dinner together with our spouses, and you came into relationship with me and my spouse, because we work together. And if Gail and I were to separate, I would want you to be my friend still and go talk to my spouse, don't say anything, you're on my side. And, and, and you know, and you may really be like my family and like my spouse better than me or something.
Steve Altishin
I'm gonna be left out of the line group. Yeah, and I mean, just think about it. It as I guess everything sort of expands and, and even goes out to the community to your relationship with with everything, you've got a school, a church, I mean, that a whole universe affects what, what how you relate to them.
Kimberly Brown
Churches are really, you know, a house of worship, whether it's church, a temple, or mosque is a really great example, you and your significant other spouse have been going to the same church for 15 years. And there's only one service time, and all your relationships at church are formed with the people that go to that service time, you can use this to service times, if your relationships are all formed with the people that go to the earlier or later service. But one of you sits in the back and one of you sits at the front. And that tension travels between the two of you. And it's awkward for everybody. I mean, across the room, everybody knows that those two people are not happy to be in the same room together, regardless of how large the sanctuary is. And everybody's uncomfortable, and everybody's awkward. And both of you want to hang on to have that feeling that the the religious ceremony and liturgy, you know, brought you together, you still want that feeling. And so you don't want to give up, it's like holding on to the house, you don't want to give up your service time or your, your your worship community. So, and your friends are in the middle of that, trying to figure out how they're going to be in your worship community together. It's just people, people are so surprised that they end up having to relearn to reform relationships over and over again. You know, you think, Oh, I figured out how we're going to co parent the children together. I'm just going to be civil and nice. And we're going to do this, okay. Oh, now I have to learn how to reform the relationship with my in laws are my now EX in laws, oh, now I have to know I have to do the money relationship, I have to do the house relationship, and it's wavering, it's wearing and that anxiety and that stress also then changes you some more. So you're constantly learning and relearning how to be in relationship differently than you would be if you'd stayed in the relationship together. And I'm not advocating thinking that you stay in the relationship together. That's not what I'm asking. I'm just, I'm trying to advocate awareness, so that you're gentle with yourself, and your children, and the other side in a manner that just says, I have to figure this all out. But they're also having to figure it all out. And they're not going to do it the same way I do.
Steve Altishin
It that leads to the last one we we kind of discussed, which is you changes your relationship with you.
Kimberly Brown
Right, right. I want to go back to the thing I think I said earlier in this in this discussion, and that is that we don't usually go into a relationship with the expectation that the relationship is going to end. And none of us start there. And so what values that you take into your relationship about what it means to be in relationship, you've brought all of that in, and now the relationship has ended. So whatever caused the breakdown of the relationship, I think that most people have at least a minimal sense that some of that is a result of something that I failed to do. It isn't always about that you failed to do something it's not that it's just you feel a sense of failure because your relationship broke up. But if the other party was having an affair, and you found out about it and you couldn't repair the relationship and you separated because of that, even though that may be the event that led to the marriage breaking up, what did I do that led that person to think they needed an affair you know, you have all of these things have happened. And again, they're not necessarily realistic reasons. You know, you're not a failure. You take you know, you did your best and you know, things happen that that you don't always have control over but you've got all of this hurt and grief and loss of expectations. You values are, like all up in the air and what you stand for didn't work before. So is it going to work again. And so you change with how you are with yourself. Sometimes I think you treat yourself so poorly because you're so broken, that you have done something wrong or you're so broken because the pain is so overwhelming, because you were on some level betrayed or, you know, the agreements you made, or the vows that you took, you know, weren't held us as gently or as strongly as you did, you know, by the other person. And so you just end up in this place of, who am I? Yeah, where am I in this world? And again, that's why we need therapy.
Steve Altishin
That's it. That's it. We have blasted through time. But before we close, and before we thank you, I know you, and you are a great person, negotiation, mediation, drawing people together. So I'm going to ask a question, that's kind of a little out of the ballpark on this, but not totally. Another bit of advice you would give, not to you, but to your brother, your brother in law, your brother's best friend, your best friend, to them when they're going through this?
Kimberly Brown
Right, the first thing i really i tell almost everybody in this situation is if you can, do not wipe out the whole relationship, because of what happened at the end of the relationship, you entered into the relationship at some point, because you cared about this person. And because of the way you were in relationship with them at that time, it fed you and it made you happy and you were excited. Don't forget that part. A lot of times when people break up, they're so angry, and they're so hurt, and they're so frustrated, that all they can focus on is what happened at the end. But don't forget that the good things were there too. Because if you can go back to there was a time when we were together and it was good. I think it impacts your ability to change your relationship with the other person in a positive manner. I did like you once. Let's figure out how I can draw on that. Well, the well of love and compassion and caring and wanting to be together, draw on that source to help affect, and to help impact how you go forward with that person.
Steve Altishin
Well, that's wonderful. And thank you, Kimberly, once again, as always, for sitting down and talking to us, no matter what we talk about. You bring a clarity, and a wisdom, that is really, really helpful. And again, today was no different. So thank you so much for being here. And everyone else. Thank you for joining us today. And until next time, stay safe, stay happy and be well.
Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.