Join us as we sit down with Co-Parenting Coach, Leslie Holthoff Martin, to discuss co-parenting hurdles that have the ability to trip parents up, and how you can anticipate and address them before they become a problem. In this interview, Leslie covers the following:
• Even the best parenting schedule is not written in stone.
• Co-parenting challenges change as the children grow older, and not always in ways you expect.
• Pre-school, elementary school and high school all require adjustments to how you co-parent your child.
• Anticipating conversations from “who pays for the braces?” to “to who pays for the car?”.
• The challenges of introducing step-parents to children.
• Ways to improve your communication skills and avoid the blame game.
• The negative impacts of using the children as messengers.
• Pros and cons of using email or text to communicate with your co-parent.
If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.
To learn more about Leslie can help you and your family, you can visit her website: https://lesliehopecoaching.com/ or her Facebook page: Leslie Hope Coaching
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
Join us as we sit down with Co-Parenting Coach, Leslie Holthoff Martin, to discuss co-parenting hurdles that have the ability to trip parents up, and how you can anticipate and address them before they become a problem. In this interview, Leslie covers the following:
• Even the best parenting schedule is not written in stone.
• Co-parenting challenges change as the children grow older, and not always in ways you expect.
• Pre-school, elementary school and high school all require adjustments to how you co-parent your child.
• Anticipating conversations from “who pays for the braces?” to “to who pays for the car?”.
• The challenges of introducing step-parents to children.
• Ways to improve your communication skills and avoid the blame game.
• The negative impacts of using the children as messengers.
• Pros and cons of using email or text to communicate with your co-parent.
If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.
To learn more about Leslie can help you and your family, you can visit her website: https://lesliehopecoaching.com/ or her Facebook page: Leslie Hope Coaching
Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.
Intro:
Welcome to Modern Family Matters, a podcast devoted to exploring family law topics that matter most to you. Covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law matters, with expert analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests, we hope that our podcast provides answers, clarity, and guidance towards a better tomorrow for you and your family. Here's your host, Steve Altishin.
Steve Altishin
Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today I'm here with co parenting coach Leslie Holthoff Martin, to discuss how to expect the unexpected co parenting hurdles and pitfalls and how you can anticipate and address them before they become a problem. Well, that was a mouthful. Reminded me of Carly Simon's anticipation song and I almost started singing, nobody would want that to happen. So before we start, Leslie, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Sure. I'm a divorce and co parenting coach, I have been doing some version of co parenting for almost 30 years. I'm finishing up my dissertation, which I'm writing on joint shared custody. So I study the 5050 world, which is what I did with my kids for a while. But I like I said, I tried all the other stuff before, I've been a little bit obsessed with co parenting because when I was going through divorce and becoming a co parent, I didn't know anybody who was doing it other than dad gets two kids every other weekend. And so I just I felt I had a lot to learn, my parents would have celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary last week. So they were married for 45 years before he passed away. And so I only knew what it was like to raise kids in a you know, traditional family type setting. So I've sort of dedicated my career to figuring out the best way to manage co parenting, and how to actually find some benefits and really help your kids thrive in that environment.
Steve Altishin
I love that, I love that. We probably get this issue as the most problematic experience of our clients. You know, once the divorce is over, it's one blames the other, one doesn't blame. It's just, there's very little, and we talked about this, communication between them. And there's very little sort of understanding about what happens when the kids got older. And we talked about that. And I'm so I'm glad you're here because I think those issues really are important. So I'm going to start with sort of the obvious question. I mean, co parenting...co parenting does need to change as your child ages, doesn't it?
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Of course it does. And I think that's one of the hardest things for people to grasp, especially in the beginning, when they're coming up with this parenting plan, right, we get stuck on, ooh, the big Christmas morning, or, oh, you know, this summer or that summer, or you know, everything feels so fine. Oh, you're right. And you're like, Oh, my kid is seven. And this is what we're gonna be doing for the next 10 or 11 years. And no, you know, the parenting plans are created to be a bit fluid. There's certainly a basis for getting started. But you know, your kids need different points of view as they grow older, obviously, a newborn is going to have some reliance on their mother that they may need their father more when they're 17. I mean, that analogy is obvious. But when you're in the middle of it, and it's happening, it doesn't feel so obvious, especially when those changes are smaller. You know, your your child who's at home, that needs change when they start kindergarten, and then when they go to high school, and it's just as a child, they're supposed to be lucky to have two parents that want to be a part of that. And as parents, we should be able to look at it that way and say, You know what, this is fantastic. I'm sort of at wit's end, but thank God, I've got this other parent that I can call with a tag you're at right? Like, and we have to learn that is not a failure, saying I need your help other parent does not mean that I have failed as a parent in any way it actually means I'm stronger as a parent, because I'm bringing in the other half. And I'm saying together, we can do better. And I think sometimes as single parents, it feels like failure, I had to do it myself. And I know that it was the first time I had to call and say that once and you know, my son is driving me crazy. We've I've done the discipline that I think I should do. And I've said the right things, I think I should say and it's just not getting through to him. It felt like I must be a terrible mom, right? And I was happily surprised with the way that he handled it and it was a big challenge for me he was 15 sons 15. They are where they are. And anyway it ended up being a real blessing in disguise and so I really encourage parents to be thankful that there are two of you in this co parenting journey and to remember that that's what the other parent is there for even if it is not written in black and white in the in the parenting plan. That's what they're there for, you're there as a parent to, you know, sort of make those decisions as they come because it's parenting is unpredictable.
Steve Altishin
I love that because so many people think of the parenting plan, as the end all be all. And it's not it's a statement of legal rights and responsibilities. And like you said, co parenting goes way beyond that, and, and it's all these other things kind of happen. But if I do come in to you, and maybe at the beginning, and and I say, you know, we're supposed to write a co parenting plan what would you start to talk about? What, what do you think you should at least need to put or maybe even more than that, at least in a co parenting plan right off, right? Even if the children are two years old.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
One thing that we do as coaches is, we try to a lot of times your first parenting, when you think of that, right? When you think of this is what I want. And this is when I want to allow the other parent to have or however you look at it, it's easy to so many parents go, I want him full time, you know, he cheated on me, or I'm mad at him, I want the kids full time. And one thing we do as a coach is we go, okay, you know, I want you to walk me through that walk me through a Wednesday, when you have a huge, you have to travel for work, or you have a huge presentation, and you know, life is gonna happen on your into. And then a lot of times when you really walk through what the day to day looks like a full time parenting, you can kind of come to the realization and say, You know what, this isn't what's best for anybody. Not only does it not allow me to be the best parent, because you never get a break. But it really takes away from the other parent, and they don't get any chance to be a parent, it's not good for your kids is definitely not the best thing. And certainly when you jump at it out of spite. There are of course, parenting situations, you know, domestic violence and things like that, where that's not possible. We're not talking about that. But in general co parenting terms, I try to really walk my clients through the day to day and say, you know, when are you at your best parenting? What are you really good at what is the other parent really good at and talk about those things, because you do have different gifts. That's the beauty of it. And again, those things change, you know, it may be that your job is great for taking your child to and from the elementary school, which was in your neighborhood, but when they go to, you know, middle school, it's further away, they're gonna start having sports after school, they're gonna, you know, these types of things. Lean on the other parent, that's what you're supposed to do.
Steve Altishin
I know that a lot of parents also get hung up on on this study, which is a term of art, actually, and making decisions about the kid. And how that not only can be shared, but you know, how that can change over time? Because, you know, it seems to me that, that that decision to let's say, buy a computer or the decision to sign up for this class. That's something that can be discussed between parents.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Oh, my gosh, yes. And there's so many things. I know, one that popped up for me that I wasn't expecting was video games. What video games? Can Can my eight year old son play? You know? And how do those you know, ratings do they matter? And you know, kind of, that's the new rated our movie, right is like these video games. And that was something that obviously we had never thought to put into a parenting plan. But it was something that I felt really strongly about when that was I don't want my eight year old son playing these video games that are meant for adults to play with assault rifles. And you know, I don't even want to know what's in them to be honest. And so for my husband and I, many years ago, ex husband, that was a challenge that we had, and that goes to my other co parenting point is pick your battles. That was really important to me. And there were things that I let go because it wasn't worth fighting about To me that was and I said, Look, in this particular sense, in this particular case, you really almost have to look at which parent is being a little bit more conservative. Right? So what damage is going to be done if we don't let him play this video game at eight years old, versus what damage has been done? If we do and it's, you know, we don't know, right? We don't know the damage that could happen if he's eight and he's playing these games. Of course, they're doing studies and all these things. But the truth is, this is this is even 1015 years ago, right? We really had no idea. And so I just felt like I was being it's true. I was being more conservative on the topic, but I was like, we don't know what the outcome will be. But I'm saying this, this is important to me. And I'm going to say you know if we need to revisit our parenting plan if we need to talk to lawyers, again, that's The route we'll take I feel very strongly about this BB guns, I lost that war. That one when I was like, Okay, well if you're with them and you know you feel comfortable doing it, I don't love that He has to be vegan, but I had to get over that that was one that I let go. So picking your battles, I think is really important when it comes to co parenting. And it's not only okay, but it's expected that you parent in different ways you have different parenting styles. And it's okay that the things that are okay at my house and things of care, your house are different, as long as they're within, you know, some certain agreed upon boundaries. You know, I might make the kids come home and do homework, the second they get off the bus, maybe you eat dinner first, and then you do the homework. As long as your kid is adapting okay to that that's one of those little things where you just let it go, your kids are better at adapting and things like that than you think. But you just really have to decide what's worth fighting about.
Steve Altishin
Yeah. How about anticipating the future? Do you try? Do you try to emphasize that? Or is it more about the process of being flexible, and how to change when the times arise? Because I know, there are some parenting plans that will say, in kindergarten, this happens in high school, this happened at colleges happens, and others that that are more like, here's how you agree to stuff and how you don't agree to stuff.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
As a general life practice, I try not to look too far ahead, especially in parenting plans, I just think anything more than two or three years, you don't even know who your kids are going to be right. Um, there are many things that change so quickly. You know, I mean, those kids can change every six months. And obviously, that slows down a little bit. But it's just one month can be totally different than the next. And it's very hard to decide how your middle middle schooler should be, you know, treated as a high schooler. And then of course, just to me, it's impossible. I find it wasteful to, you know, try to plan the future that far in advance. So I really encourage people to be in the here and now what does our child need right now? And obviously, you you can anticipate the next school year that far advanced? Yes, it's good to try to anticipate some issues that come up, but not much further than that, in my opinion.
Steve Altishin
I love that. I mean, that requires I guess, the second part of what you and I have are talking about, so important. And a lot of time there is lacking. And that's effective communication between the CO parents. I mean, if if it isn't written, they have to figure out how to do it somehow.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Yes, right. And communication, we make it sound so easy, right? Like just this one word, make it also, communication is the hardest thing to do. Because you don't want to, it's very hard to separate your ex from your co parent. And I've even suggested sometimes almost give them give them a nickname in your head, right? So dad is this guy, and my ex is this guy. And so that I can almost in my mind, I can say I'm not mad at dad, right? I'm mad at apps. And you have to really sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't. But for me it did. And I had to say, look, this is this is important. And this isn't. And no matter how bad you don't want to talk to your ex, it's necessary to talk to your other co parent. And so something else we do as a coach with my co parenting clients is try to learn how to communicate. You know, if you're talking about who's gonna pick up little Billy from soccer on Thursday, not the time to sneak in the text and say, PS, I saw you with your new girlfriend and food line yesterday, right? Like not the time. You have to you have to separate the two. And you have to be willing to have these well needed conversations about the kids while leaving out any of the emotional relationship baggage that still lingers. So important.
Steve Altishin
I love it. It's like co parenting is almost a business plan.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
It is you know, and my clients hate to hear it. But I always say this, I'm like, you know, it's never going to fail, that you're going to need something from the other parent. It can be something as awful as your grandfather died and you want your child to go to the funeral, right? But it's not your weekend or it's not your day, you know, you're you're going to need favors. And they are too so you need to always sort of approach it. How would I want to be treated? You know, the golden rule? How would I want to be treated if I was in the same situation? And to kind of always look at it like that, and I say I know it's gonna break you. But But try really hard and each of your big communications to give a compliment like thank you for grabbing Billy from soccer practice the other day work was crazy. And I really appreciated the help like when those things happen. try really hard to give some acknowledgments and to really appreciate what they did. It can be small, I know you have to start small, but it really does make a difference too.
Steve Altishin
I love the thing about being something complimentary, something positive because as it feels like, the negative is the first thing people turn to, when talking to each other, and how, and how can you get rid of that? I mean, how can you get past that negative? Like, I just love your ideas? What about I guess I would call it using the children? And a lot of people I don't think I think there's a problem with it. But it's it's like, okay, tell dad this.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Oh, you know, this one is huge. Tell me what you guys did this weekend. And not like a What was your favorite part of the weekend? Or, you know, you can have conversations with your kids. But if you want if you're asking, Where did you go to dinner? What time did you get home from dinner? Did you go to bed on time? How late did you sleep in? Or did what did you eat for breakfast, you know, that is bad. That is using the kids in the same way. As you know, asking them about child support. Like it is just a huge nono all across the board, but it is sometimes hard to recognize. And I have found that some of my clients who think they not they know not to do that, they still do that in ways that they didn't even realize they were doing it. And what you just said is, you know, hand hand this to your dad for me like now, one of the things in my co parenting research that I've found that I found fascinating is that essentially, when you talk bad about the other parent to the child, the child internalizes it as if you were saying it about them. So when you say, your dad is fill in the blank, or your mom is fill in the blank or whatever, if it's something negative, they take it that you mean that about them. And I think if more parents understood the damage that that because they don't, I don't know that you know that if you don't really understand psychology, or you know, it's just not something a lot of people think about but you know, it's so important. Don't say something to your child about their other parent that you wouldn't say to them about them. Just don't do it. And that kind of aligns too with Be careful what you ask them, it's okay, if you don't know every single thing they did last weekend. And if you need to get something there to the other parent, there are other ways. As much as you can leave the child out of that part. The better off your child will be they don't they don't need any more to carry.
Steve Altishin
Yeah. I imagine saying, Jimmy, who's your dad seeing this week, is probably not a good thing to talk about.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Right? The worst, right? And yet. You know, but in that regard, I think also, when you're co parenting, it's really important to give the other parent that heads up, hey, I started seeing somebody you don't have to say I need to introduce you right now. Or sometimes that's obviously been addressed in a parenting plan. But, you know, hey, I just want to let you know that you might hear around town that I'm seeing somebody else or, you know, I have had co parents where they moved someone new in the house and didn't tell the other co parent, obviously, that is do not do that. Do not announce on Facebook, that you're having a child with your new relationship, you have to tell the other parent, you know, you want to make sure that your child is going to get the support they need when they find out about these things. And how could you possibly think that the other parent should find out from the child like that's awful.
Steve Altishin
Mentioning that made me think also communication, obviously, between the CO parents, and as you're talking between the children and the and the parents, but there's other people that communication is important, I think, to help co parenting I mean, they're communicating with the teachers, they're communicating potentially what they step parent, or the to be step parent, or the cousins of the accident seems like the communication line is can go sideways in a lot of different places.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
It can, it can and I think that it sneaks up on you, too, like you just said sometimes I don't even think you realize, especially in small communities, you know, if you are talking to other people's families, or maybe your ex is still friends with your cousins, and you know, these types of things happen. And yeah, communication really does make so much of it easier, even though it feels harder at first.
Steve Altishin
If I were to come to you and say well, how do I communicate with my, okay? They always make this this thing I've told them that this thing is happening, or they didn't tell me this thing is happening. Do you have some recommendations you tend to give people about maybe the best way to communicate and maybe the worst way to communicate?
Leslie Holthoff Martin
I do think the best way to communicate is email or text over writing. But I always suggest you learn how to do drafts. Right The First one do not put the to address in if you're doing an email. Or if you listen to nothing else. I say trust me on that. But you know, write whatever you want. Don't worry about what it sounds like. Don't worry about somebody else reading it and get it all out and then then take from that okay, how much of this is really about the issue at hand and pick that out and try to take that out and leave that emotion and you will feel better for having gotten the anger out. And the frustration, you will feel better for having just typed it or wrote it or however you do it. But you know, like I said, don't send that. And then make sure that when you are communicating via written word, do the thing your teachers told you in elementary school read over, you know, make sure that you're not allowing that anger or the emotions that you feel to to get into that. And just try to be very clear, very concise, a compliment doesn't hurt. And be clear about what you want to a lot of times, my clients have communication issues. And I'm like, Well, I don't Well, what are you trying to get? Oh, well, I want to trade the weekend, and in May for the weekend in August. And I'm like, but you didn't even say that. You know what I mean? You're sort of fighting about switching times. But you never even said when you were looking for and why, you know, like, it's okay to say my sister's getting married in August. And it's not my weekend. But I'd really like for the kids to be there. Like, that's something that makes it you know, it's just communicating, you know, not I want this weekend, I don't need to tell you why you don't need to know what I'm doing. Like, stop. Like, it's okay to talk about these things.
Steve Altishin
You know, like you would a friend? Yeah. Gonna hit a pet peeve of mine after, okay. But it is not being specific. In the communications when you're actually trying to get something understood and done. And the, hey, I got this thing and that and I got that. And what do you think about that? And then maybe something here, and then you get a thumbs up mode?
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Yes. And another point is, if you're not too much at once, right? Like, sometimes you'll get a text message with like four questions. And then they get back and answer with like, one of the three questions and I'm like, Okay, let's kind of break this down, let's address one issue at a time, you know, and which of these is the most important, we don't want to be overwhelming. I mean, you are still typically having many of these conversations in the middle of the day, often, where your co parent is at work, or your co parent has other kids or, you know, you have to remember and stop taking a personal you know, like, they haven't responded to me in two hours, but you don't really know what they have going on. You know, you have to think about it like that, too. But anyways, I would say just limited one conversation, one text one email at a time, and not so that the other person doesn't feel overwhelmed with all these questions and really get lost in it. And you just you don't get what you want.
Steve Altishin
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great suggestion. I would give that to my son today.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Yes. It's just a great overall relationship, any relationship in general bit of advice, it is.
Steve Altishin
I just want to hit a loop just for a little because this again, becomes a co parenting nightmare at times, is called just call it money, paying for things. I mean, there is a general legal rule of what you know, child support is what what spouse sport is and what they're supposed to go to. But there is a myriad of stuff that comes up. You know, and I think we may have talked about this. It's, it's, my kid turns 16, who's gonna pay for the car insurance?
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Yeah. My biggest fight that I have with my ex husband was about when my sons are driving and car insurance. And you know, of course, it would have been futile to have that conversation when we got divorced. And he was too. All of a sudden it was upon us and that stuff. Yeah, our decisions they are and that was something that we just, I didn't even know where to begin. Because you you have it's more than that, right? It's never just the car insurance. It's the car. It's where the car is going to stay. It's who's gonna pay overtime the car has repair used to be in the car. Oh, my gosh, I mean, is it my car? Is he allowed to drive it to your house? I mean, that those are real co parenting arguments. Like I'm going to my kids, this car and he's not allowed to drive it to his mom's house. This is real conversations that I have to say. One about that makes you feel good. You know, what about that makes your child feel good? How are you being a good go parent in that situation? Your job as a parent should be to make the fact that your child has two homes and two parents that don't live together as seamless for them as possible. You know, you can't make it perfect. Not that married couples have perfect parenting either. But you know, you can never really get there. So it's sort of just how can we make this the easiest on him. And as discussed before, you want to have those conversations not in front of him. You want to have those conversations privately between the two of you until you decide what happens and then you have a united front and talking to your child about what the rules will be you know for such a huge responsibility. And at that point, you can talk about okay when you turn 18 This car will become yours or whatever the case may be when you turn 18 You will take over your own insurance or Hello Are you come up with it, but, you know, when they reached that 16 and driving becomes a thing, you can really start laying out for them what that will look like in the near future.
Steve Altishin
I like that. Communication, just one one last part of communication and you touched on it. You said email, text, those are your, your kind of favorite. What about social media?
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Divorce clients is you have to stop being friends on social media, at least for a while. I'm like, take a break, it might be a year, maybe longer that depends on your relationship, but you're both better off not being in the know, of everywhere they are and everywhere they go. And it doesn't mean that and this is all breakups, okay, like that is my advice to my 20 year old child, when him and his girlfriend break up. I'm like, take a social media break. Later, I encourage you to be friends, I think that you were played an important part in each other's lives. But you have to take a break, cut it out, do not communicate over social media, do not even look at each other's social media, until you are well into what you consider high functioning co parenting, where you can be excited to see a picture of your child with your ex and potentially a new person until that would make you happy. Don't do it.
Steve Altishin
Nothing good can come from it. I like that I like that we we are almost at the end hard to believe hard to believe. I want to do two things. I want to first let you let everybody knows listening now. And in the future. You get a lot of future Facebook Lives. And let people know how they get ahold of you. And just give them some some ways to find you because you know your stuff. I would like that your stuff is very nuts and bolts. It's not pie in the sky stuff. This is kind of nuts and bolts stuff, which I really like.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
Thank you. My website is Lesliehopecoaching.com. I'm on Leslie Holtoff Facebook, Instagram, you can find me there. I also wrote a book called Not Mary Not Roe: The Survival Story of a Reluctant Teen Mom, and that is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble anywhere you want to look. And also on my website is the links to obviously contact me email me, finally to my book, find me on social media. Anything you need can be found there. Lesliehopecoaching.
Steve Altishin
I love it. I love it. And right before we say goodbye, you had mentioned don't be afraid of tough conversations, you're gonna have tough conversations. And that kind of led to, you know, my kind of thinking you tell me what it is. Don't be afraid of co parenting.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
I love co parenting. I went into it terrified and thinking, what am I doing my kids? What am I doing to me, and I ended up walking away from it. And sometimes I think Man, I think I figured this out so much better than other people. There's something to be said for being able to pick up that phone that the phone and get a break when you need it. There's just something to be said for there are benefits to co parenting. You know, I don't like it when people look at co parenting and they're like, this sucks. And we're gonna make the best of a terrible situation. That's not what co parenting is. Right? co parenting is an equally important way to parent it is equal to quote unquote, traditional parenting, and your kids can end up equally as well rounded and intelligent and smart and feel loved. You just have to be committed to get them there. And you have to believe that that's possible, obviously.
Steve Altishin
Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, we definitely run out of time. So Leslie, I really, really appreciate your being here.
Leslie Holthoff Martin
I love talking about parenting. So I really appreciate the opportunity.
Steve Altishin
Well, I appreciate you being here. So thank you, everyone else. Thank you for joining us. So until next time, stay safe, stay happy and be well.
Outro:
This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Pacific Cascade Legal, serving families in Oregon and Washington. If you are in need of legal counsel or have additional questions about a family law matter important to you, please visit our websites at pacificcascadelegal.com or pacificcascadefamilylaw.com. You can also call our headquarters at (503) 227-0200 to schedule a case evaluation with one of our seasoned attorneys. Modern Family Matters, advocating for your better tomorrow and offering legal solutions important to the modern family.