Is Trust Possible After Betrayal? A Conversation on Forgiveness

In this insightful conversation, Steve Titian from Pacific Cascade Legal speaks with Dr. Bruce Chalmer, a couples therapist with over 30 years of experience, about the complex dynamics of betrayal, forgiveness, and rebuilding trust in relationships.

 Dr. Chalmer explains that betrayal uniquely hurts because it not only involves
someone breaking our trust, but also causes us to doubt our own judgment and sanity. He introduces a three-step forgiveness process—forgiving yourself, forgiving the person who hurt you, and "forgiving God" (accepting
reality as it is)—emphasizing that forgiveness is an "inside job" that doesn't necessarily mean restoring the relationship. 

The discussion covers how couples can heal from infidelity, the importance of faith (not necessarily religious) in accepting reality, and how both the betrayed and the betrayer must work through trust issues to move forward, whether together or apart.

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

To learn more about Bruce can help you, you can view his website at: https://brucechalmer.com/

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Speaker 0  00:00:03

<silence> Hi, everyone. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal, and today we have Dr. Bruce Chalmer here to talk about betrayal and forgiveness and navigating the turmoil and learning to trust. Hey, Bruce, how you doing this morning?

Speaker 1  00:00:21

I am doing well. Thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to our chat.

Speaker 0  00:00:25

Oh, I am too. And before we started on it, can you just sort of talk a little bit about yourself and how you kind of got to be doing what you're doing?

Speaker 1  00:00:34

Yeah. I've been, uh, a, uh, couples therapist now for, uh, over 30 years in private practice. Uh, and the folks who were, if you're seeing this, rather than just hearing it, you might note that I am not a young person. Uh, <laugh> I'm in my seventies, so I, I didn't start out, uh, right outta college or Right. Even right outta graduate school, uh, on that path. I was a statistician for a while. I was teaching courses in data communications for a while, but I found my way into doing therapy because it felt like something of a calling. I experienced some of it myself, and I just found like, wow, I really wanna do this. And the more I did it, the more I was drawn to working with couples. There's something, and, you know, you talk to a bunch of therapists and the, and they will usually have strong opinions about whether they like working with couples or are terrified at working with couples. And I'm in the <laugh> in the group that likes working with couples. There's something about, um, it just feels so immediate and it feels so significant. Not that it isn't with individuals, it is, but there's something about working with couples that just feels like I'm, I'm, I'm helping he heal more than just that couple, you know, I'm helping heal the world in certain ways. And it, it feels like a, as I say, like a calling. So I've been doing it for quite a while, and I like it. Yeah.

Speaker 0  00:01:47

I, I, and I like the fact that you, you, the whole couple's idea, it's like, it's like, it know, it's, it's, it's unlike, you know, having a phone call with one person, then doing it, then the other person then doing it, and it's like they're all, they're all together. Yeah. The, the, the sort of immediacy of it, I really like about that. Yeah. And as family law attorneys, and so we do a lot of, obviously divorce, post-divorce, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, betrayal is a word we hear a fair amount, and so I kind of wanna, I'm not surprised, start with the Betrayal for Dummies question, which is, you know, what is betrayal and why does it hurt?

Speaker 1  00:02:30

Yeah. Betrayal is, it's an interesting concept. I think most people, you know, people use terms differently, but most people use the term betrayal this way. You can't be betrayed by a total stranger. You can be hurt by a total stranger, but you can't be betrayed. Betrayal implies expectations in a particular relationship. So if somebody, you know, if you're in a, in a couple relationship, let's say a marriage with the assumption of monogamy and somebody goes, has sex with somebody else, they have violated a really core expectation that most folks, not all these days, but most folks have in marriages, and sometimes they haven't even discussed that in, you know, specifically. They've just assumed it. But when somebody feels like somebody, they, they never thought would do that based on the relationship with them. That's what betrayal is. And it hurts so much because it's not merely that someone has done something to hurt you.

Speaker 1  00:03:25

I mean, of course they have, but it's also that you doubt your own judgment. You doubt your own sanity. You know, people are often, like, if somebody, let's say, using that very common example of infidelity, it, the person who was cheated on often feels like, I thought I knew this person that I married to. I thought I knew who they were, that I thought they wouldn't do something like that. Oh my God, then, you know, so you're doubting if you can trust them. And then it turns into, well, why didn't I see this coming? How could I have been so blind, so stupid? So, you know, whatever. And they're beating up on themselves, and they're starting to wonder about their own sanity sometimes. And that's true, even if the partner isn't quite specifically gaslighting, that's a term, by the way. Maybe it's a little pet peeve of mine.

Speaker 1  00:04:09

People overuse that term. People use the term gaslighting when what they mean is lying. Lots of people lie, but not that many people. Gaslight gaslighting is specifically when you are deliberately trying to make the other person feel crazy, it's not merely that you're lying to them, which can, you know, be difficult. But anyway, even if they're not being specifically gas lit, still, people can feel, can, they can doubt their sanity. It's like, I, I thought I knew things and now I don't know what I know. And so it's incredibly upsetting, to say the least. And when people come to consult me, you know, they're at varying stages of that. Often, it's pretty soon after they've discovered the infidelity. Uh, other time, or, or other betrayals I should mention, it's not just infidelity. Um, sometimes it's, um, I just, uh, the other day I met a couple for the first time where he had disclosed infidelity from about three years ago and hadn't been unfaithful since, but they were gonna buy a house together, and he felt just terrible. And he felt like she has a right to know Yeah. You know, to see if she can really, you know, and that which she even thought was, I mean, she was shocked and hurt by it, but she appreciated that, you know, that sentiment. At least he was giving her that, that amount of respect

Speaker 0  00:05:23

That, that, that kind, uh, stuff, you know, really can complicate, especially divorce cases, because I think that it, the, the person who feels betrayed, um, tends to lose the, the, the, I don't wanna say the, the, the view or the clear view of trying to move forward. Yes. And, and it feels like when we talk to 'em, a lot of times it's, it's almost like they, they don't know who to trust anymore. Yeah. And, and how, how do you, how do you get out of that kind

Speaker 1  00:06:11

Of, well, it's hard <laugh>, I mean, and they don't know who to trust anymore, starting with themselves. Yes. Which is really the hard part of, you know, when they start being able to trust themselves. And, you know, that, that gets into the, the, the domain of what I call forgiveness. And I say what I call forgiveness. People use that term different ways, but there's, I mean, basically two different ways people use the term. They're both, you know, common ways of using it. But I, I specify one in particular as, as a better way to use it. Often people say, oh, well, if I forgive this person, that means I'm restoring the relationship. That means I'm saying, you know, I'm, I'm basically saying, well, I guess it wasn't that bad. We can move on. And that is not at all what I mean by forgiveness. What I mean by forgiveness is the other way of using it, which is some people have called it an inside job.

Speaker 1  00:06:55

In other words, no forgiveness in the sense I'm using. It has almost nothing to do with your relationship with the person. It has everything to do with your own reactions so that I can forgive someone who doesn't deserve it on any moral level. You know, I can forgive somebody who isn't at all, sorry, doesn't even acknowledge what they did, you know, whatever. I can forgive them in the sense that I can say, well, there's no point being angry anymore. I just have to accept that's what happened. Now I gotta figure out what do I do about this relationship, but forgiveness, the way I describe it, well, I, in the, in the book you mentioned, I, I describe it as a three step process. And I always like to point out, beware of authors who describe things as a three step process, <laugh>, including me. Uh, you know, it makes it sound so step by step.

Speaker 1  00:07:39

It's not like that, but it's, it's a way of understanding it. The three steps, step one is forgive yourself. And because that's what lets you get your head clear a little bit. Yeah. And, and to forgive yourself. What do I mean by that? I guess it's when you can reach that point where you're saying, well, knowing what I know and not knowing what I didn't know, you know, who I was, then I was doing the best I could. You know, I can look back and say, I should have known better. Well, maybe you should have, but you didn't. And given who you were given, you know, I mean, you're a valid person. You've been a valid person all the way along. That's really the key right there. When you start realizing, oh, I guess, yeah, there's no point beating up on myself. I didn't know better.

Speaker 1  00:08:18

Now I know better I've learned, but no point beating up on myself. That's what it feels like to forgive yourself when you can do that. I think step two is a pretty short step. Step two is forgive the person who hurt you. Yeah. And it's not that big a step, oddly enough, because you can say, well, okay, so given who I was, I was kind of doing the best I could. Now I gotta look at this, you know, horrible person, jerk, whatever, you know, they're still angry that did this to me. And then realized, well, they shouldn't have done it. I'm not condoning it, I'm not saying it wasn't immoral, whatever it was, but it had a context given who they were, given the thoughts they were having. Maybe they were pissed at me. You know, maybe they were justifying it to

themselves. That's often what happens with affairs.

Speaker 1  00:09:01

Certainly there's people who have studied that there's this sort of sequence of justifying thoughts that people will have that lead them to it, that make them vulnerable to it. Again, that doesn't absolve them of moral responsibility or legal <laugh>. And you're the expert on that. Yeah. But it, it does mean there's a context and when people can recognize, well, given what was going on, I guess they, I can see how they could have done that. I wish they hadn't, they shouldn't have. But you can let go of the, of the anger. You can, you know, a lot of the folks you're talking about when you see, they, they don't seem to know who to trust or even themselves. A lot of that is our brains, large chunks of our minds. Not just brains, but our, our mental processes don't have any conception of time. So there's a lot of us, when when a horrible thing happens, some traumatic event happens a lot, there's a whole lot of our bodies and minds that are trying to make it not have happened. Yeah. They're trying to go back. It's not accepting that it happened. It's like, no, no, that didn't happen. We have to make it that it didn't happen. Well, obviously it's not realistic, but that's part of how our minds work. Yeah. For all kinds of good evolutionary reason.

Speaker 0  00:10:05

It, it's funny you say that because it, it feels like it's either that or you think it's still happening. Yes. It's like that time thing you said, it is kind of not, you know, just, it, it kind of goes bonkers. Now I have to respond to what you said that you hate three step approaches, <laugh>, the and, and what I, I love it because <laugh>, I learned early that if you try to teach somebody 10, three things, they learn three things.

Speaker 1 00:10:40 Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 0  00:10:42

I teach them 10 things. They learned three things.

Speaker 1  00:10:45

Yes. Yeah. I, I did that. I mean, I, I'm responsible for doing that. I did it for a reason. I didn't get to step three. So let me get to step three. So step, step one, forgive yourself, step two, forgive who hurt you. Step three, I give a funny name to, and you don't have to be religious at all to appreciate this name. Step three is forgive God. What does that mean? You know, it means, okay, I can, I can recognize I was doing the best I could. I can recognize the person who hurt me. Even they were doing the best they could. What kind of a world do we have to, this shouldn't happen, you know? It just shouldn't happen. That's the feeling that you have to get past. Of course, it shouldn't happen, except that if we, you know, if I were put in charge of the universe, if, if somebody appointed me, you know, God, temporary God for 10 minutes, I would destroy everything without intending to, I can't possibly keep track of everything.

Speaker 1  00:11:31

You know, there's reasons why stuff like that can happen, and it's built into the existence of the universe that things like that can happen. And it wouldn't work if it, if it weren't. That's what I mean by, by forgiving God. It's like accepting, okay, I guess reality is right to be what it is. And, and another word I use, and I love, this is the word I bandi about, about this a lot. The word I use for that sense of accepting the rightness of reality, even when it hurts. That's what I call faith. Again, it doesn't have to be religious faith, but faith is kind of the solution there. Faith is what gets you past this stuff. You know, you, the, um, podcast my wife and I do is called couples therapy in seven words. And the seven word, I have it on a cup, <laugh>, it's, uh, we, we have merch.

Speaker 1  00:12:17

There's our, there's our logo, couples therapy in seven words. So people are watching, I guess some people are probably just listening. Um, but anyway, there's the, the seven words, be kind, don't panic, and have faith. Those, those three principles be kind in the sense of kinship. You know, people who are coming for divorce have lost that sense. So if they, if they don't want a divorce, they need to have that sense of kinship. Well, you can't do that when you're in a panic when you're feeling like, oh my God, they're, this person isn't safe. And I'm in a, in a profound panic. And the antidote to panic is faith in the sense that I described it. It's a mindset. It's not something you can prove. It's not a assertion of fact. It's just a

mindset. It says, well, I'm gonna choose to believe the sense that reality's right to be what it is and work with it, rather than insist that it not be.

Speaker 0  00:13:02

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I like how you sort of, a lot of people use faith and trust the same.

Speaker 1  00:13:10

Yeah. And I don't mean that, but

Speaker 0  00:13:12

You separate that and they're different.

Speaker 1  00:13:14

Yes. They are very different. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's interesting when in working with people to heal from betrayal, because, you know, let's take this situation of couples that wanna stay together, which I work with quite a few. Yeah. Plenty of couples I work with where there's been a betrayal end up splitting up. But plenty of 'em don't. And the only way they stay together is by things getting better than it was. You know, the couples that come in and say, we just want to go back to the way it was, it's not gonna work. They, they, that's not faith. That's the opposite of faith. They're just refusing to accept that what happened happened. The couples that come in and say, wow, this is awful. We better look at this because it was meaningful. You know, like the person who was cheated on is, is saying things like, well, I, you know, let's say it's the, a woman who was cheated on the man that did the cheating.

Speaker 1  00:13:55

And she's saying, I know he's not evil. I know he's a good person, basically. I know. He, he, I even believe him when he says he loves me, you know, he's not crazy. So there must be something to this, even though it was wrong, I'm not, you know, I'm not condoning it, I'm not blaming myself for his bad actions, but there was a context, we better look at it. That's how we can possibly rebuild this relationship. That's how maybe we can get to trust. So you have to be able to get to that level of, you know, forgiveness in the sense of not being overwhelmed by, by trauma, whenever you know, what you were talking about, it feels like it's still happening. That's what unprocessed trauma feels like. You know, PTSD, that's basically in operation, that's what PTSD is. It's like p things your body thinks, or your brain thinks things are happening, dangerous things are happening when there are memories of dangerous things that are happening.

Speaker 1  00:14:43

And the, the healing process, and I, I did a lot of that earlier in my career. The healing process for people who are, who are dealing with unprocessed trauma is to give the brain enough experience visiting it mentally so that the memory's no longer unsafe. The, the event was unsafe, but the memory doesn't have to be. Yeah. That's how you, that's basically how people recover from PTSD. Well, it's a similar thing in betrayal. Betrayal is a trauma, and to recover from that trauma involves getting to the point where you don't feel like it's constantly happening. And of course, I do point that out. If it is constantly happening or frequently happening, if it's still happening, you need the anger, you need the panic. That's what panic is for Get out. Yeah. You know, that's, it's, there are times when it's premature to forgive. Don't forgive when you're in the middle of being abused.

Speaker 0 00:15:32 Yeah.

Speaker 1  00:15:33

Use that, use that anger, use that, that energy, that panic is telling you something. But

Speaker 0 00:15:39 Flight,

Speaker 1  00:15:41

Yeah. Fight or flight or freeze or whatever. But you know, it's, it's, it's a message. But if that is not the case, if you're just,

just, I don't mean to trivialize, but if you're just badly hurt, but you're not in acute danger, then you have, you know, if you can recover from that enough, if you can get past the panic, then you can actually work with it and see what you want to do. Then you can see about rebuilding trust. And of course, that that's not an inside job that involves both parties. Yeah. That's a very different, in,

Speaker 0  00:16:08

In, in your work, you, like you were saying, you work with both people who, who are trying to not get divorced or get back together Yeah. And people who are not necessarily doing that. Um, but even though you're not restoring your, your, I guess, marriage relationship in a divorce, especially when you have kids in your co-parenting, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You, there's a, a very strong relationship that you need to restore to make that work, isn't there?

Speaker 1  00:16:48

Absolutely. Yes. And I work with quite a few couples in that situation, you know, where they are divorced or they are divorcing and they are trying to figure out how to do that. And it's fascinating because, you know, one of the things I talk about with pretty much all the couples I work with is the, the two sets of needs you need for a relationship to work are stability and intimacy. Yeah. And of course, stability means, you know, the, look, the legal system is all about stability. That's what it's for. It's, and, and I have great respect for that. It's, it's a really important thing. And I'll often point out to people who are in conflict, that if they can't resolve it, there is a legal system which will resolve it for you. You may not like it, but it will do it. You know, there, there's an answer available and it's a good thing.

Speaker 1  00:17:29

And they know that. And that's, uh, as you, I'm sure you realize that's an incentive to people, like in, in, in situations like mediation, that's an incentive to people to try and find something they could both be okay with. Yeah. So that, you know, so that they're not risking having something imposed on them that it wouldn't be okay with at all. So I'm also, I, you know, stability is important, but intimacy is interesting when you're talking about a divorcing couple, because intimacy for a couple that is staying together and trying to stay together. There, there is intimacy in both of those cases. By intimacy, I don't necessarily mean sex. I mean honesty. Yep. Mutual honesty, mutual willingness to say what you feel like you need to say and hear what the other person feels like. They need to say that, you know, two divorced parents need that too. So you need to be able to have some kind of way of risking that sort of honesty. And I say risking because, you know, I, as I so often preach, I say preach. And our podcast, I've said to my wife, sometimes if people had a drinking game, every time I say tolerate the anxiety, they would get drunk by the end of our podcast. You know, <laugh>. Um, that's, I often point that out, the chief skill of intimacy is to tolerate anxiety rather than avoid it. Yeah.

Speaker 1  00:18:42

And that is difficult for couples when they're in a panic. And of course, that's the thing about couples who are on the verge of divorce or aren't sure yet, it feels so panicky because they're panicked at the notion that they might decide to split up, or the other one might decide to split up and they'll lose their, their whole lives in a sense. Right. And so they're often close to the edge of panic once they've decided to split up, often the panic level will go down, and then it's about then the conflicts are other things, but either way, they need to be able to have honest, what I would call intimate conversation. And that is, that takes a lot of tolerating anxiety. Yeah.

Speaker 0  00:19:24

So if, if I walk into you and, and, and you talk about this, you know, one of the first things I kind of might say is, well, well, how do I do this? I mean, you know, how can I decide to restore my relationship? I mean, what, you know, tell gimme five things I need to do, or three things I need <laugh>. I mean, you know,

Speaker 1  00:19:49

I don't know if I have five things you need to do. I mean, it's, it, yeah. I have one thing you need to do, which is practice faith. Right. There. Go, that's a very broad statement. I don't, again, I don't mean religious faith necessarily. Yep. Practice faith. It's, it's that mindset that'll get you through this. Yeah.

Speaker 1  00:20:03

It's that recognition. Okay. Yeah. You, you know, life is livable even when it seems to suck. Right. That there is some way

you're gonna be okay ultimately, whatever Okay. Means, I mean, I can't say you're gonna be okay in the sense of you'll, you know, oh, you'll be glad you divorced. Some many people are not at all glad they're divorced, or especially if the other person that wanted the divorce, you know, but you'll find a way through this, you'll and you will grow. And in fact, the people who, who heal in the ways that I'm really trying to help 'em heal are grateful for the growth. They're not grateful for the crisis per se, but they're grateful for the growth. Yeah. And so that, you know, if they can sort of keep their eye on that prize and not freak out too much, then they can work through, okay, how could I decide whether or not to trust this person?

Speaker 1  00:20:48

And it gets sort of interesting because if there's been some kind of betrayal as that's what we're talking about here, um, how does one decide are you, even if you can get past, you know, get to the point of forgiveness, it's like, you know what? I can see why, you know, they were vulnerable to having an affair. It's like our, our sex life wasn't great. Our intimate life more generally wasn't great. We were having a hard time with each other for a long time. You know, I can see why he'd be angry at me or she'd be angry at me. You know, whatever. If you, even if you can get there now, you have to figure, well, how can I trust they won't do that again? And one of the interesting things that happens through the work, I think, is first of all, you can't because you can't.

Speaker 1  00:21:24

And with anybody, I don't mean that in a cynical way. You know, often a lot of what people are thinking when they're betrayed is, I never would've thought they'd do that. Yeah. Well, yeah, they did that <laugh>. So you're thinking they, you know, apparently you were miss, you know, you were wrong. You know, you thought they wouldn't, but they did. And that's true of anybody. I'm not trying to say anybody's going, always going to cheat. I'm just saying, you never know what life presents. So there's always some degree of uncertainty. Yeah. So given that, then it's about figuring, well, if you can repair the relationship in the sense that you feel there is honesty flowing back and forth, there is a sense that, you know, if, if one or the other of you were tempted to cheat, you wouldn't just cheat or you wouldn't just suppress it. You'd, you know, you'd talk about it, you'd work through it, you wouldn't panic about it, you'd be fine. You know, you'd, you'd incorporate that sexual energy into your relationship, you know, whatever. That's the, that often couples can do that. But the other piece, which I think is really nice is you can also recognize, look, if they do cheat again, it would, it would be awful. Right? You'd, you'd hate it, but it wouldn't be the shock that the first time was.

Speaker 0 00:22:32 It's

Speaker 1  00:22:33

True. It would be disappointing, right. It would be bad. But if you're, if you're, if you've kind of recognized Yeah. Stuff like that can happen, then you can recognize, well, okay, well probably you'll decide to split up even then. I'm not gonna, not for me to specify that, but, you know, you gave it a good shot and it wasn't worthless, it wasn't valueless. It didn't mean none of it meant anything. It just meant, yeah. It didn't work out. And if you can recognize that going in, you're not as afraid to give it another shot. And again, not for me to tell people if they should or shouldn't do that.

Speaker 0 00:23:04 Right.

Speaker 1  00:23:05

Yeah. That's, I, I, you know.

Speaker 0 00:23:07 Yeah,

Speaker 1  00:23:08

It's true. I'm very clear about that. You know, my expertise is in having conversations with people. It's not in telling 'em how to live. Yeah.

Speaker 0  00:23:14

And that, that leads to, there's one more thing I wanna talk about for sure. Even though we're of course blowing through time. Ah, yes. You, you used a term, and we talked about it a little bit, ideas versus ideologies. It's, you know, yes, you have all these ideas and, but ideas, I think should be flexible. But you, you, you talk about how, how they kind of can become ideologies and that's not a good thing.

Speaker 1  00:23:44

Yeah. And you know, you, you, I don't know if you meant, you had this in your mind, you almost had idolatries and I I equate those, I actually equate those. They're, they're very, very similar. It's the same idea. Yeah. That when ideas harden into ideology, it means that you're no longer thrown around the ideas and, and learning from them. You know, lots of people have ideas about how to do this work. Lots of other therapists that I respect greatly have ideas about how to do this work that's very different from mine. Some of them quite in conflict with mine. Good ideas. Interesting ideas. I don't have the last word on this, and neither do they. If I think I do, I have crossed over into ideology. And then it's no longer a conversation then it's about defending the ideology against heretics, you know, fundamentalism, basically. That's what fundamentalism is. Yeah. And it is destructive. It is simply destructive. Good ideas turn into caricatures of themselves when they get hardened into ideology. Yep. And that's true in therapy as much as it is in, in politics.

Speaker 0 00:24:41 Yeah. Yeah. You

Speaker 1  00:24:42

Know, therapists can be, we can be so enamored of our clever ideas and our wonderful techniques and our, you know, our ways of understanding things will fit people into diagnostic categories rather than actually hearing the people we're talking to. Yeah. And, you know, diagnoses can be useful, but they can also be straitjackets. They, they can close your mind instead of opening it.

Speaker 0  00:25:03

It, it's so true. And you know, the, the kind of the way you, you, you put it, it, it is what makes, when the ideas become ideologies, it makes the, not just the divorce, the post-divorce, the rest of your life with that person much harder. Absolutely. And that's just, you know, it's just so hard. Now, this could probably be a whole nother thing. We could have a whole nother broadcast, but could you talk a little bit about, you've talked about being betrayed. What happens if, you know, 'cause you do couples therapy, you know, what about if you are the one who is doing the betrayal?

Speaker 1  00:25:46

Oh, I have a whole chapter in the book about that. And they, I I kind of mentioned this in passing. It's not just the one who was betrayed, who has a trust issue. Yeah. So does the one who did the betraying among other things, they have to trust a couple of things. They have to trust that the, the person they betrayed could ever love them and trust them again. Yeah. You know, rather than being their probation officer for the rest of their lives, which people generally don't wanna live that way. And of course then there's, it's a, it's ironic, but they also often have to trust. They, they actually have some forgiving to do as well of the person who they betrayed, because often the person they betrayed wasn't very nice to them when they found out about it. I'm not saying it's not understandable, of course it's understandable, but sometimes it's, you know, they say and do things that are pretty nasty.

Speaker 1  00:26:32

And if they're gonna rebuild trust, they're gonna have to find a way of saying, well, I'm gonna have to understand that behavior, just like the person, the other person has to understand their behavior. Yeah. So it is, it's an issue for both parties and it, it hinges on both parties forgiving themselves and especially the betrayer. You know, they did something that they, they better acknowledge was wrong against their own values. If it isn't, then don't try to be with them. You know, if, if the problem for the betrayer was just merely that they got caught, not a good bet, <laugh> Right. To, to stay together. Usually the problem is no. They're feeling like, oh my God, I I betrayed my own values. You know, I see how it happened in hindsight. But, you know, they're feeling that they need to forgive themselves, even to be able to make a decent apology. You have to be coming from a place of validity. Not a place of, of shame, but we, yeah. We could <laugh> we could talk about that a lot.

Speaker 0  00:27:23

Yeah. No, really. I mean, because

Speaker 1  00:27:24

We're getting low on time here.

Speaker 0  00:27:26

Oh, well the, you know, time is, time is just time.

Speaker 1  00:27:30

<laugh> indeed. You're in charge of that. That's <laugh>.

Speaker 0  00:27:34

Yeah. Um, and you, you did talk, uh, also a little about, about making, you know, if you're, again, and maybe it's both, um, the betrayer, the betrayed, making amends and, and having some accountability, uh, goes a long way.

Speaker 1  00:27:58

Yeah, it does. When it's genuine. And of course it does if the person you're, you're apologizing to is ready to receive it, which they aren't always, but Yeah, it does, it can do wonders. And it can also, of course, there's the classic apologies that aren't apologies at all. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm sorry if you were hurt by that <laugh>, that's not an apology at all. And once in a while, I'll meet somebody.

Speaker 0 00:28:20 It's the killer

Speaker 1  00:28:20

<laugh>. Yeah. It is the killer. Yeah. I'll meet somebody where they don't think it's a betrayal. Yeah. You know, there's that, that does happen occasionally.

Speaker 0  00:28:26

Yep, yep. Yeah. Wow. The, our, yeah, we are out of time, unfortunately, and I only don't even didn't even get to the part where, as you're talking about betrayal in a, in a relationship and, and what and what it is, I'm thinking that's what pranksters do. That's what's wrong with people who prank people <laugh>,

Speaker 1  00:28:46

I suppose. Yeah. I mean, it depends on how you

Speaker 0  00:28:48

Think you're, you're betraying their trust.

Speaker 1 00:28:50 Yes. <laugh>,

Speaker 0  00:28:52

I have a whole thing about that, but we won't go into that Now. <laugh> again, this was so great. I really thank you so much. But before you go, can you tell people how they can get ahold of you if they'd like to reach you?

Speaker 1  00:29:04

Yeah. Easiest way is through my website. If you spell my name right, you've got it. It's bruce chalmer.com. Chalmer is spelled C-H-A-L-M-E-R. So the website is Bruce Chalmer all one word, bruce chalmer.com. Oh. And that has links my practice and also my, uh, books and the links to the podcast. And that's the best way to get ahold of me.

Speaker 0  00:29:26

Sounds good. Again, thanks for being here today to talk about betrayal, forgiveness, learning to trust it just, and you did it in a way that's really understandable, even to someone like me. So it was great. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me on. Oh my gosh, everyone, thank you also for joining us today. Any further questions on today's topic, you can always post it here or contact Bruce. But if you do post it here, we will also get you connected with him and until.