The Divorce Tug-of-War: The Assets That Couples Fight Over Most

Five assets keep showing up when divorcing couples hit a wall, and the reason is almost never just emotion. It is value. I sit down with founding attorney Lewis Landerholm to unpack why retirement accounts, the marital home, business interests, investment portfolios, and valuable personal property become the flashpoints in divorce and family law cases, especially when each asset carries different tax rules, different volatility, and different paperwork.

We get practical about the hidden math: why pre tax 401(k) dollars are not the same as cash, when pensions require an actuary, and how premarital versus marital components can change the division. Then we move to the marital home, where the deed is often easy but the mortgage can be the real obstacle, particularly when a refinance means higher interest rates and a smaller buying power for the spouse who keeps the property. We also explain why judges tend to choose the simplest clean break if a plan is not realistic, and why vague terms in a divorce decree can lead to expensive enforcement fights years later.

From there we dig into business valuation, including why picking the right valuation expert matters, what happens when both spouses work in the business, and how buyouts can collide with future cash flow and support issues. We also cover investment accounts, RSUs and stock gains, cost basis, and the tax surprises that can dwarf the “headline” account value. Finally, we talk about appraisals for cars, jewelry, art, and even bitcoin, where volatility makes timing and documentation critical.

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If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Welcome And Podcast Mission

Intro/Outro 0:01

Welcome to Mother Family Members, a podcast devoted to exploring family love topics that matter most to you, covering a wide range of legal, personal, and family law members with extra analysis from skilled attorneys and professional guests. We hope that our podcast provides interest, liberty, and to better tomorrow for you and your family. Here is your host, Steve Al tishin.

The Five Most Contested Assets

Steve Altishin 0:31

Hi everyone, I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships here at Pacific Cascade Legal. And today I'm here with our founding attorney, Lewis Landerholm, to talk about what are often the most contested assets in a divorce. Hey Lewis, before we get started, how are you doing? Doing great.

Lewis Landerholm 0:50

How are you, Steve?

Why Valuation Drives Divorce Conflict

Steve Altishin 0:51

I'm doing really great. This is this one I really like because whenever I talk with people, no matter what's going on, there's always some issue about one of these assets or more. And so it's kind of good to kind of get them out and talk about, you know, just what they are and why they're important. So I kind of chose five that we can talk about today: retirement accounts, marital home, business interests, investment portfolios, and then just other personal property that could be valuable, art, vehicles, that kind of stuff. So before we go through their individual kind of nuances, um, is there a common thread that tends to run through those kinds of assets?

Lewis Landerholm 1:35

Well, I think the you know, the the biggest part with any of these assets is always valuation, right? And so when we're dealing with dividing the marital estate, the question becomes what is the marital property worth? And so for some of these, there are valuation questions, not necessarily like a retirement account, but more on the retirement account side, that's where people feel like, well, I earn that by my work, so why should I have to give half of that to my soon-to-beat ex-spouse? So that's kind of where it falls on the retirement account side. On a lot of the other ones, it really comes down to competing valuations, and that's always a place for there to be a fight. You know, you've got a house, you can have multiple opinions on what a house is uh worth. Uh, you've got um, you know, investment accounts, you know, what's going to happen as during the dependency of the case, are they gonna grow? And then also what investment accounts, you know, another thing that's in investment is like RSU's restricted stock options that companies will give. That's another big contention. Like, how do we deal with that? And there's a case that deals with that as to the valuation of the future amount. And then obviously, personal property is uh in businesses, are they all built on what is the value. And so, you know, there can be, you know, do we need experts to do evaluation? Do we need somebody to go through and just determine what is even there, you know, especially if there's cash or if there's hard assets like gold or silver or that sort of thing. So those those are that's where the biggest contention comes from is if it's marital, then how much is it worth?

Retirement Accounts Taxes Pensions QDROs

Steve Altishin 3:23

Yeah, yeah. Retirement accounts can always to me feel like they're they're can be different because a lot of people don't necessarily uh I don't want to say understand what a retirement account is, but I mean, you know, you think you could have an IRA, you could have a fork, you can have a this, you can have a that, and you you know, even got social security coming up. And it feels like like all of those um need to uh need to have their little little there's individual things about them that you need to know, and and how it mixes with all the other assets. It's specific. How do you even value like a 401k?

Lewis Landerholm 4:09

Yeah, and then and that becomes an issue because 401k is because they're pre-tax dollars, uh, we typically have to do agree on some sort of tax, uh essentially a discount from the tax consequences when it's um actually pulled out down the road, so that we could compare apples to apples. We can compare cash that's sitting in an account today to a 401k uh that's sitting there. Pensions are also a huge issue because pensions have to, the only way to truly value it is to get an actuary to tell us what the what the value is. And so pensions are are a much bigger deal. Federal retirement, furs, you know, we've got all of these different military retirement. Uh retirement are so detailed because you've got some federal law, you've got state law, you've got, you know, when where when was it accrued, you know, how much has it grown? All of this comes into play for the retirement account analysis.

Steve Altishin 5:07

Yeah, and it's it feels like in this one particular, there's there's real expertise, knowledge that that your attorney needs to put in. Because a lot of these you can see, well, it'll be 50-50. And then others will say, well, no, it's going to be this amount of money and this amount of money. And that can sometimes be different because the you know, you're what what's the date? I mean, because these things are ongoing after the divorce.

Lewis Landerholm 5:41

Right. Yeah, and then that is always a part of negotiation or something that needs to get ordered, specifically if like people have, you know, say worked for 10 years prior to getting married. So the 401k has a premarital component and then the marital component. So all of that comes into play and has to get decided and dealt with. And then when you throw in a pension with pensions, you've got to have to deal with what is going to be the value. Is there a survivor benefit? Is there not? Is there like there's so much that goes into it? So that's where you know there's there's no way to kind of blanket it per type of account. It's just when we get into a case, we have to look at what accounts are there and then determine, you know, what do we need to do to value them?

Steve Altishin 6:28

Yeah, which you know makes you kind of understand why it can be contested. I mean, there's a lot of stuff you got to put together. I mean, uh, what if one client really doesn't have that many short-term needs, but they feel their long-term needs they're at? Or the opposite. I mean, you know, seems like that even gets mixed in.

Lewis Landerholm 6:47

Yeah, and trading, you know, trading today's cash versus retirement and all of that plays into you know a mediation or negotiation as well. But um, the most important part is just what are the values so that we can compare, um, you know, compare across different types of assets and uh in property.

Steve Altishin 7:07

Yeah. And just finally on this, on this, the whole idea of you you were talking about, you know, is it marital asset? Is it not marital asset? And can it sometimes be both? I mean, you know, can it could it part of it be marital and part of it be non-marital?

Lewis Landerholm 7:23

Yeah, and that's what we do a lot of times. So, like in a situation where previous example of the maritime work for 10 years, have the 401k, get married, the marital portion um can be valued and can be defined, and that part gets divided. Then at the end of the case, then once we know what that number is going to be, then you know the parties would do what's called a quadro to be able to split that account so that there aren't tax consequences when that happens. So that's how we deal with the um you know the the premarital versus marital portion.

The Marital Home Buyouts Refi Sales

Steve Altishin 7:59

Yeah, but it makes sense then that it's not something that you just want to say, yeah, let's do it this way without really digging into any of it. So that totally makes sense. Now the second one, which is interesting, is the marital home. And and there's this sort of truism that you know you hear, okay, what are you gonna get? The marital home or the you know the the retirement. It's it's almost like they they battle each other, but the marital home by itself can be you know pretty complex to get figured out, get done, and and on this one, it's gotta maybe get sold.

Lewis Landerholm 8:41

Right. Yeah, and that's um, so again, valuation is a qu is always a question if it's not going to market where the somebody buyer out in the world is gonna tell us what they're willing to pay for it. The division itself can be complicated, especially if somebody's trying to buy the other person out. You've got a lot to think through with from the standpoint of you have the mortgage, you have the deed, you know, the deed is the easy part from a legal standpoint, but the mortgage is the much more complicated one, especially in today's world where you've got interest rates that are higher than you know, some people have had over the past few years. And and if you're forced to do a refi or you're forced to sell, then your you know your money's not going to go as far with a new home or with a new payment. And so all of that comes into play. So we have more and more people co-owning property after the divorce because they're waiting either for the market or they're waiting for the interest rates to come down and then do something. Well, that's all possible, and and we can do that in a divorce, but there's just a lot more complications and a lot more things to work out, like who's required to deal with repairs, who's required to make the payments, then what happens when it sells, how you know what's the what's the trigger for it selling? So there's so many things to you know to think through when you're when you're talking about a house. Um, so we just want to, you know, again, make sure that it's not where I think people get confused or get overwhelmed, is they start to look at every piece independently of each other. Like what you were saying is like, I've got the retirement account, I need to deal with that, but I also have the home. When in reality, it takes a little more work to get there, but it we look at the entire picture. And because we're trying to equalize and we're trying to split out of as few pieces of property as we possibly can. So when we're doing the analysis and we're doing our spreadsheet for court or for mediation, you know, it's really about what's the total value of everything so that we can pair across different types of assets and then make the division as simple as as possible, whether that's out of retirement or if that's out of the home. So that's where you know I see a lot of mistakes when people do their own divorces when they're dealing with the independent pieces. And so it's like, okay, we're gonna split the retirement, we're gonna sell, you know, we're gonna sell the house, or I'm gonna get bought out of the house, and then I'm gonna deal with the cars and I'm gonna deal with, well, yes, you can do it that way, but now you're spending money and you're taking time on each of those divisions. And so, you know, that's where having some expertise and just knowing knowing how this stuff works is important so that we can help to minimize those transfers, minimize the number of things that actually have to get dealt with. And that just saves time and saves money.

Steve Altishin 11:39

Yeah, I imagine that you probably get a lot of clients who have an attachment that's not financial to the house. There's there's obviously your kids grew up there, they've lived there. I mean, that's a whole nother non-financial part that's even kind of in there. But also, you know, I've also seen where there's, you know, if someone's getting full custody and they can say, Well, I want the house because I'm, you know, I'm the full custody and uh they're gonna be here more and all of that kind of and so all of that can get kind of tossed in as well, can't it?

Decrees That Prevent Future Lawsuits

Lewis Landerholm 12:20

Well, especially in like negotiations. When you get to a judge, though, um, a judge frankly doesn't care that much. The judge is like, I don't want to see these people back in my courtroom again. And so if somebody can't prove to me that they can refire or they can get the other person off the house, I'm just ordering it sold because I don't want to have to deal with enforcement. I don't want to have to deal with modifications, I don't want to have to deal with all of the things that come with co-owning property after the fact. And so while all of these competing interests definitely, you know, are something to think through during the negotiation phase. But what we have to tell clients and what clients need to know is that ultimately if if we end up in trial, the judge is just gonna say who has the ability to to refi or to buy the other person out. And that person is more than likely going to get awarded the the ability to stay in the home because it really comes down to dollars and cents at that point. Um, so it's it's um, you know, from a judge perspective, they want to take the easiest route to disentangle everybody. Um, but um, you know, there's there's definitely reasons to keep people in a house. It just has to make sense financially.

Steve Altishin 13:37

Yeah. Kind of a side of the decide here. You brought up the judge makes the final decision, and the judge makes a final decision, whatever it is. And you've talked about this before, comes out to be a decree, which uh which is a judgment and uh how important it is to have everything that you need to have into that judgment, because if it's not there, it ain't there. And it seems to me that that these particular kind of items um almost need to be contested to bring out the all of the issues to prevent them from happening three years from now.

Lewis Landerholm 14:16

Yeah, it's and because we can't change it after the fact. And so um, you know, I've seen multiple. I saw one this week where the judgment just said the ex-spouse gets a certain amount of money out of the house when it sells. Well, there's no provisions on how to make it sell, there's no timeline for when it's supposed to sell, there's no there's no terms. And so the challenge is that judges look at the document and say, Well, the document only says this, so I can't enforce it. So then you have to go through a much more complicated process to actually deal with the house. So the the biggest thing with all of these five is that I think there's a tendency for people to think, oh, we'll be able to figure that out later. But to figure that out later turns into a 10 times the amount of money to deal with it up front. And you you know, you have to think through when we hate each other, can we figure this out later? And the answer typically is no. Um, and so hunting the the question and the answer down the road um just is set up for you know a phone call that I have all too often, which is sorry, this is gonna cost you $30,000, $40,000 to deal with now because we didn't, because it wasn't dealt with back at the time of the divorce when it could have cost a thousand or two thousand dollars just to plan for it. Um, and so it just has a lot of ramifications because the courts have have limited ability to go back and do something about it.

Business Interests And Choosing Valuators

Steve Altishin 15:52

Yeah. I imagine that when it comes to businesses or interests in business, that getting it right the first time becomes even more important because you know that can be just crazy if you don't get it right the first time.

Lewis Landerholm 16:10

Businesses by far, outside of kids, businesses are to me the most complicated, the bring the most complicated issues to the table. Because you, you know, like you said before, people have that sort of intrinsic value and and that that uh with the house. Businesses are even that they bring that even more. So there's there's the dollar and cents, but there's you know, the feeling like this business is a child because you pour so much time and energy into it, um, that if if you have to give it up or give pieces of it, um, it can be very difficult for people to wrestle with and and deal with. But the reality is that it is an asset and it's an income source. So you've got all these different pieces of it that can cause complications. So business valuations are are very subjective, you know, finding the right valuator for the type of business is difficult. Not not all evaluators are created equal. And so, you know, if you've got uh you know a dentist office, you need somebody who specializes in that type of valuation versus you know, if you have a you know a real estate company or that sort of thing. So finding the right person to do it is a big part of it too, and then you know, getting a valuation, but that valuation is very different. You've got capital gains issues, you've got so many things that come into play. Um, you know, if you if you just put a valuation on a business and don't think through the future issues, then um it can cause a lot of problems later.

Steve Altishin 17:52

Well, yeah, and imagine that when both of the of the parties actually work in the business for the business, that can be especially difficult because it does one party have to like quit?

Lewis Landerholm 18:11

Yeah, happens all the time. Um and if they were underpaid in the business, then you know, or weren't paid in the business, then how does that work? And you've got, you know, are there is there any deferred comp? Is there not any deferred comp? You've got a business that has been the lifeline for and both both parties put all of their time and energy and their you know their work went into that, and that was the future. And then it's gonna get divided, and there's gonna be, you know, uh a buyout, and there's gonna be, you know, potential spouse support ramifications from you know, from the valuation of the business. And then can the person who keeps the business can they actually afford to do all of these things at the same time and keep the business afloat? Like it's it's really important to uh to do it the right way.

Steve Altishin 19:00

Oh my god, that just you know reminded me of uh of you know what happens uh in just in general when one of the spouses is sort of the unpaid uh worker. And you know, there's there's mechanics that that make up for that. And in this case, that I mean it seems like that could happen. I mean, one of the parties works and can takes all the income, and the other one just works for them and maybe takes no income. Right. Yeah, yeah, and then that's interesting.

Lewis Landerholm 19:37

Yeah, there's a lot of uh there's a lot of fun things that go along with businesses. So we w we have to be you know very intentional and and just get the information so that we're actually uh doing it the right way.

Investment Accounts RSUs And Tax Surprises

Steve Altishin 19:50

Yeah, yeah. Uh the fourth one, which is sort of the you know, sidestep from the first one, which was retirement accounts, which have you know not just the the value, but that whole retirement aspect, but just regular investment portfolios. Um a lot of them are taxed differently, a lot of them are treated differently, a lot of them you know come paid to pay differently, that's gotta be an issue.

Lewis Landerholm 20:18

Yeah, all the time because it the especially every type of account is so different. Are we dealing with short-term capital gains, long-term, long-term capital gains? Uh what are the gains? You know, trying to figure out the basis and all the different, you know, uh stocks that are held, or you know, what have you in what these investments are uh can be extremely challenging. That's why getting the right person involved to help value it and and tell us what those what those different values are is super important. Um I just had a case recently where one of the parties had made large gains in the stock market in a short period of time. Well, the result is, yeah, that's great, and that's great. You make large gains in the stock market, but the reality is that the tax bill for that year was going to be massive. And if you don't take that into consideration because you're not thinking about it, then there's going to be a big surprise at the end of the year when there's a tax bill of, you know, in this instance, it was over a quarter million dollars. Like that's a that's a big deal if it's not dealt with the right way. So that's just something where I think they the the biggest takeaway with these and through the personal property that we'll talk about next is really just getting the right people involved to give the information so that we can really compare the values across multiple types of uh assets.

Steve Altishin 21:48

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, one thing that I I I hear people ask is and talk about is you know, really on these is let's say you've got A hundred thousand dollar IRA and it's cooking along, and you've got a hundred dollar piece of land, or you know, does the does the future value of even though they're both a hundred thousand now, the future value of one may be very different than the future value of the other. And that's gotta add some complexity.

Lewis Landerholm 22:27

Yeah, more from a negotiation standpoint, because once you end up in trial, the the definition is date of divorce is the valuation. So you have to have that, you know, and we're going to we're gonna base the the division off of the um the date of the divorce. So but it definitely comes into play when we're uh negotiator trying to mediate.

Steve Altishin 22:50

The negotiating you talked about really, I think you know, comes in because on these kinds of things, again, there's still that separate and marital property, and who's investing in what and you know who brought in what, and that all has to be you know again put into the the negotiation.

Lewis Landerholm 23:14

Yeah. Then you go into things like you know, hard assets, like cars, you know, gold, and it becomes even more difficult because you have to do historical appraisals, and so that becomes even more challenging. Like it's the reality is that somebody has to tell us what something's worth, and so we have to be able to go get those uh valuations.

Steve Altishin 23:40

Yeah, yeah. And that gets to that personal property, you know, it's it it may seem easy. Okay, you take you know, your jewelry, I'll take my jewelry, you'll take your car, I'll take my car. But as the value of those things, if they're especially if they're high value, that can become a little more tricky.

Lewis Landerholm 24:00

Yeah, yeah. And then you get the family sentimental part of it too. It's just what is the value, how important it is to somebody to keep, and then using that to be able to trade assets around. So I would say that uh you know the the personal property, you know, really requires a good appraiser and uh getting those valuations so that we can uh deal with them.

Steve Altishin 24:31

The it feels sometimes like in even even high asset you know divorces, uh some personal property that is not particularly shouldn't be considered that important, gets gets a tremendous over importance because one party just says, no, I I this is mine. And and yeah, it it can really come up the works when someone just doesn't want to sign, you know, the negotiation until they get that particular thing.

Lewis Landerholm 25:07

Yeah, and then because then it's not about the math, it's about you know the uh you know that sentimental value. And so we see that all the time and and just have to work through that.

Steve Altishin 25:19

Just an offshoot. I was kind of looking through stuff, and Bitcoins are big or they're getting and they're getting bigger. Are they treated more like investments or like personal property? I mean, you you talked about gold and and things like that, which which are sort of a cross between personal property and investments.

Lewis Landerholm 25:39

Yeah. I mean, the way I look at it is that it it feels more like an investment account to me because you've got you know the volatility that comes with it. Whereas typically with personal property, you don't have quite as much volatility. And so, you know, you kind of but you still have to get a value, but that one you can have valuations change so dramatically. It's just important again. Could you lose thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars or thousands of dollars? It's all possible, right? So, you know, it's just a matter of putting it on the balance sheet and then being able to divide it appropriately.

Steve Altishin 26:13

Yeah, you know, it's it's funny. Um there's a case I know of going on right now where where the judges needing to decide on personal property items that they both are attaching, you know, historical and sentimental value to. And it's coming down and they're not agreeing. And this thing is coming down to having the judge decide who is this most has the most personal connection to this. And that's not a place you want to put the judge, like you said, is it?

Lewis Landerholm 26:57

No, you can you can avoid it. That's not a good use of time and money for sure.

Final Takeaways And Contact Info

Steve Altishin 27:02

Yeah, really? Wow. Well, those are the five. Those are the and I, you know, there's that we could talk about some others, but those definitely I think are the big five that are contested the most and really need good attorneys to get their clients through the most.

Lewis Landerholm 27:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Altishin 27:24

Yeah. Well, look, Lis, thank you. Thank you for sitting down to talk with us today about these five important most contested assets in a divorce. It was just great. You break it down to where people can understand why it is and how it is. So thanks very much for joining us today.

Lewis Landerholm 27:42

Yeah, you're welcome.

Steve Altishin 27:44

All right. And if anyone has any further questions, feel free to contact our firm. Until next time, stay safe, stay happy, and be well.

Intro/Outro 27:52

This has been Modern Family Matters, a legal podcast focusing on providing real answers and direction for individuals and families. Our podcast is sponsored by Lander Home Family Love and Pacific Cascade Family Love, serving families in Oregon and Web. If you are in need of legal help, additional questions of family report to you. Please specifically. Pacific Cascade Family. You can also call our headquarters at 503 227 0200. Schedule a case evaluation with one of our case.