#61: Parenting Adult Children With ADHD: Collaboration, Modelling and Expectations

Parenting an adult child who is struggling is an emotional rollercoaster. 

In your wildest dreams you never thought raising a young adult would be this challenging. In your mind, you thought it would be so different. Yet here you are. And it's not just your adult child you want to help,  but your relationship, how you communicate, how you connect and how work together to grow.  

With over 20 years of experience in the field of psychology including a PhD in Clinical Psychology, my guest today is Dr. Anna Levy-Warren. Anna is the founder and CEO of Organizational Tutors, a nationwide network of experts who help students and adults overcome executive functioning challenges and diverse learning profiles. She's the co-founder of Dwellness, which provides in-home and in person therapy and she also leads STEEL Advising, where she provides executive functioning and leadership training to executives, entrepreneurs, and professionals. In her New York City-based private practice, Anna specializes in working with parents, couples, and families navigating high-conflict situations, ADHD, learning disabilities and emotional dysregulation.

But here's what makes today's conversation so powerful: Anna isn't just speaking as an expert; she's also a parent who has walked this path herself. She knows firsthand the frustration, the guilt, and oftentimes, the helplessness that comes with having a strong-willed child with their own executive functioning challenges. 

In today's episode,  Anna shares concrete, actionable steps that will help you strengthen your relationship with your young adult and help them move forward. 

To contact Dr. Anna Levy-Warren: https://www.annalevywarrenphd.com/

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As always, thank you for listening!

Sidenote - did you count how many times I said “love it”? I did. 12x, maybe less. 

💻 Have you enrolled in Shari's Parenting course yet?  "The Journey to Independence: A Step-by-Step Roadmap to Guiding and Launching Your Adult Child.” 

For more information and where to sign up, visit: https://parentingfx.com/parentingcourse

Do you want to know if your adult child is struggling with Failure to Launch? Grab the FREE Failure to Launch Checklist here:  

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Email me if you have any questions at: Shari@ParentingFX.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Launch. If you're the parent with a young adult who's living at home with no responsibilities, no desire to work or study, in fact, they barely leave their room, but they insist their adults refuse to take any of your advice and you are feeling beyond frustrated, this episode is for you. With over 20 years of experience in the field of psychology, including a PhD in clinical psychology, my guest today is Dr. Anna Levy Warren. Anna is the founder and CEO of Organizational Tutors, a nationwide network of experts who helps students and adults overcome executive functioning challenges and diverse learning profiles. She's also the co-founder of Dwellness, which provides in-home and in-person therapy. And she leads another company, Steel Advising, where she provides executive functioning and leadership training to entrepreneurs and professionals. In her New York City-based private practice, Anna specializes in working with parents, couples, and families navigating high conflict situations, ADHD, learning disabilities, and emotional dysregulation. But here's what makes today's conversation so powerful. Anna isn't just speaking as a highly accomplished expert. She's also a parent who has walked this path herself. She knows firsthand the frustration, the guilt, and oftentimes the helplessness that comes with having a strong-willed child with their own executive functioning challenges. Well, in today's episode, Anna shares concrete, actionable steps that will help you strengthen your relationship with your young adult and help them move forward. Let's get started. Welcome to launch, Anna. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have this conversation. I really am. I want to jump in. We're very excited to be here. Yeah, I want to jump right in. So we have a great topic. We really, really do. What inspired me to have you on this podcast is obviously your professional experience, your personal story, and your passion for helping parents navigate one of the most challenging situations, which is having a young adult living at home, making poor choices, not working, not studying, barely leaving their bedroom. And parents feeling completely powerless because biologically they're adults, they can't control them. But developmentally and emotionally, they behave like insufferable children. So basically, parents are faced with this conundrum that their adult kids in their 20s and 30s are not acting like adults at all, but they insist on being treated as such and refuse to take any of their parents' advice, which is quite literally driving parents crazy. So hopefully, after today's conversation, I want parents to walk away with not just a better understanding of how they can manage this situation, but concrete steps that they can take to help their adult child to move forward, at least out of their rooms.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yeah, I like that. I like that as the first step. Let's be very let's get real about what we're looking at. The bar is low. Yeah, exactly. Set those expectations where they should be.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

But before we get into that, I want you to share with the listener your personal story, um, specifically what you've been going through with your daughter, because I know that it will help parents feel less alone, knowing that even a psychologist and experts in this field also struggle with their young adults. So please share with us what your experience has been.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Sure. I mean, I always say I started doing this work and helping parents and kids with executive functioning challenges and all kinds of neurocomplexity way before I was a parent. And parenting brought me to my knees. You know, I really could give so much advice and I would go into these workshops with all this energy and I'd give you a hundred things to do. And I would watch the parents' eye roll, but I thought I knew better. And then as I had my own children that really fell outside of developmental norms and really struggled, both in terms of executive functioning challenges, but also just psychiatrically with anxiety, with depression, with all kinds of complexity, I was broken by it. I was really my heartbroken, I think actually is a good way to put it, and exhausted and really with so many expert resources, unable to follow through with so many of the steps that I would have given parents myself. So my empathy is really high for what this actually feels like, means, look like, looks like, and the implementation of strategies, even if you think that they are excellent, the differential between what you read, what you know, what you think should happen, what all the people tell you, and then what it actually is like to live it. Um, and my own daughter, who is not quite yet, you know, she's right on that 18 brink, um, is really has had a lot of struggles with just getting to school, getting out of bed, functioning in very basic ways. Um, and it has pained me enormously and trying to sit with the difference between her chronological age and her developmental age, as you so articulately named, um, has been so challenging. So my story is one of both sort of the the vision of what I thought I was going to be doing as a parent and who I thought I was going to be, and the kids I thought I was gonna have, and then the reality, the lived experience, and um trying to integrate those two. So that is actually what brings me to doing this work in a different way now is to be able to hold that whole experience, what we're doing and also what it feels like.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah. So based on what you're seeing in your practice right now, what are parents most distressed and concerned about when they come to you with a young adult who is not progressing developmentally?

SPEAKER_02 6:23

You know, I think it's sometimes it's just actually the, if I'm being straightforward, it's like kind of the misery of it. You know, it's like, what are we like? We're just it's it you're living sometimes you're you're living in your own home and you're trapped in your home with someone you didn't even want as a roommate, you know, and and you're and you're responsible for them. So it's it's actually thinking about, you know, I have this dream. I think it's letting go of this fantasy that there's going to be, they need to get a job. You know, the parents come to me all the time, like they're they need to get a job, they need to function, they need to do their own laundry, and then, you know, we're laughing about it, but oh, and also if they could leave their room or if they could clean up after themselves. So there's this, there's this huge difference between the fantasy of where we want them to be based on their age and the reality of where they actually are, and trying to figure out how you move a kid in your home from one place to the other when you're feeling so exhausted, miserable, overwhelmed, and even the smallest things aren't getting done. I mean, I've had parents come to me and say, you know, my 30-year-old is living with us and the laundry is quite literally flowing out of his bedroom. Even the person who comes to help us clean can't get in there. And I'm pretty sure I saw like last week's food and I'm worried about animals in our house. And I don't know, and I cannot have that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah. Yeah. You know, many parents are frustrated because they say when when when they're here, their older kids are saying, I'm an adult, you can't tell me what to do. So can you clarify the distinction and the disconnect between the developmental or the emotional stage of these adults versus their actual biological age?

unknown 8:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

I mean, one of the things that's so hard is that we we know all different kinds of psychiatric profiles lead to what we call like a developmental lag, where there's just an age gap. And then we, I think the internal family systems model really speaks beautifully about parts of self. You know, we all have parts of ourselves that are quite young, right? There's no world in which, even as parents, you don't have a frustrated moment where you find yourself acting like a teenager, you know, like, well, you stop it. You know, you have a virgin where you're doing it right. Don't you tell me what to do, you know, and then you listen to yourself afterwards and you think, huh, that really didn't sound so great, did it? You know, like you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

You know you didn't sound good, but you have that part of yourself coming forward. So I think what's really complicated in these moments is that the chronological age is important in understanding, you know, the bell curve of normative behavior and what's expected socially. And beyond that, it's actually giving us very little information about the parts of self and how old they are. And I think as parents, the thing that we need to be looking at is how old is my child in each of these ways? So if I have a child who's living at home and not cleaning up after themselves and acting more like a seven-year-old, I'm not gonna all of a sudden ask them to act like they're 30. I'm gonna ask them to be eight and then nine and then 10 and grow them up from there by scaffolding. And even if they say, I'm an adult, I feel like an adult, this is what I need to do. It's like, instead of responding the way we want to, well, then act like an adult. Don't, you know, or it's it's instead of saying, okay, well, the way that I would actually expect an adult to behave in my home would look like this. I it's not even about being a child, it's not even about being my child. I would expect any roommate to clean up after themselves, to, you know, gather their laundry. How can I help you move towards those goals at a developmentally accurate spot for who you are internally in this moment? So that might be something like, you know, setting out the laundry basket, giving the day of the week and saying, if you're able to, you know, if you want your laundry done, this is what needs to happen in order to ensure that this step is taken for you. And other than that, there isn't a backup plan, like your laundry then is gonna, I can teach you how to do laundry, I can put the laundry basket out and give you an opportunity to get your laundry done. But if it doesn't happen, then you're gonna be stuck wearing your dirty clothing.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Right. So when parents are saying, What do I say to my kid when they tell me they're I'm an adult, they can't, you can't tell me what to do. And you know they're not acting like an adult, they they get shut down. They really, that's the one thing that they say that they just go, Yeah, I guess, I guess I can't, I can't force you. You are an adult. Even though it's obvious they're not acting like one. And I strongly suggest that they have their adult child look up the definition of what an adult is. And then show me if you're an adult and you you're supposed to be acting like an adult, then be the adult. At least demonstrate to me that you are an adult, not just in your words, but in your actions. It shuts parents down, though, is what I'm saying. It really is one of those things that parents struggle with a lot, that statement.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Right, the feeling. And I think maybe it maybe we can explore even more, you know, the idea of it's like, but I'm an adult. It's like I also would love for you to be acting in a way that allowed us to treat each other like adults. Right. Like nothing would make me happier. Like I always really want to align with that wish together. You know, I I want you to be an adult, I want you to act like an adult, I want you to feel like an adult. I am with you in that. And right now, part of the problem is that some of the ways you're behaving aren't aligned with my expectations of being an adult. And so, what can we do? Right? Like, how do we put the problem on the table in front of us? It seems like you want to be treated like an adult, you want the freedom to be able to move at in the way that you want to. I also want that. But until this moves, I'm not sure how we do that well. Like, can we work together on figuring out how we move the needle on the feeling that you want, the feeling that I want, and where we actually are. So that we're trying to get this idea of being an adult to be something that's like, yes, we all have a shared wish, but uh that's not, in my opinion, adult behavior. So, and actually, it's okay if you have a different idea of adult behavior. I want to hear your idea of adult behavior. What do you think would be an adult behavior in this situation? What do you think is uh when you say you want the freedom of an adult, what does that look like? What is it, what does it mean to you? What are the expectations that you have of it? So to get into it as a way that we're collaborating on both the definition of adulthood and where what the goal we're moving towards is without it being between us.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Love it. We can stop right there.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

No problem, just get that done, right? That's so easy.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah. So when parents, here's another one. When parents come to you and they say, I hear this a lot, I've tried everything and nothing is working. What do you see is missing in their approach?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

I mean, first of all, what I hear in that is hopelessness, helplessness, fed upness, exhaustion. And I and I just want to take a minute to be like, yeah, I often feel like that too. You know, just that that's even though it's concretized in a thought, that to me it's capturing an underlying feeling of hopeless. You know, I feel like I've tried everything. You know, that's not a feeling, but it's that that's what's coming along with it is, and usually there's grief underneath it. You know, I'm not, I'm not able to accept that this is what it looks like, and I'm in grief that this is my experience of my day-to-day, and I am exhausted and can't find another way to move forward. And I think that, you know, there's some tricks that I use that are very um strategy concrete. First of all, I think as parents, when we feel that way, we should try to talk to someone else, meaning you pretend to talk to somebody else about it. So you imagine that person is your friend. You say, you know, I was like, Anna, you feel fed up, you feel frustrated. Clearly, there's no world in which you've tried everything. So what is something? Let's take something really small that's really like what's the thing that's getting you today? And it can be something as stupid as, you know, they they aren't clearing their mug off the table in the morning. And I'm that every day. I see that stupid mug, and we've talked about it a hundred times. But be honest about like what's the thing that's getting you underneath it, and then really start to think how important that that moving, that mug getting into the sink would really make a difference in my day. And just get simple. Just get really clear that that's the thing you're working on one thing at a time. You don't get big about it because we want that synaptic success. We want that feeling of movement and to really dig into okay, there is a plan where if the only thing I'm working on is to move the mug into the sink, I am sure there are things I could try. Let me try and like be strategic about it, let me think about it, let me make it smaller. So you make it small until it's successful. So you, if it's getting the, if it's getting the mug to the counter, you know, what how do we reward that behavior? How do we make it feel good? What is the thing that we need to help it move so that we can feel movement? And I think that that's actually the thing that moves us out of helplessness and hopelessness. And there's I've tried everything is movement, right? And then it gives you hope. And once you have a touch of hope, then you remember that movement is possible. Then you remember that there are other things you could try. But to me, that's a mindset shift more than anything else at the top of it, is getting out of that idea. And we've all been there. We've all been like, I've tried everything, I can't get my kid to do this, I can't get my kid to do that. So the idea is make it smaller, talk to someone else in your own head, stop making it your problem because you give better advice to other people and really try to just get the feeling of hope and movement as the goal instead of all of the big concrete things it touches, like my kid can't clean up after themselves, this kid is never going to work because they can't get their mug into the sink, right? We get disproportionate so fast because it's so overwhelming. And that's when the hopelessness sets in again.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

You know, you you touched on something. Uh, you said reward. And I remember when my son was younger and teacher was complaining, all of his teachers, until we got this figured out, that they were complaining that he was always acting up. And they would, you know, punish him. Consequences, everyone, all parents think consequences mean punishment of some sort when they're younger. And so I said, okay, listen, not everybody operates that way. Not everybody operates on punishment as a consequence. My kid operates on reward. And I think parents have to shift. That it's like I can't, I can't, what do I do if they don't? What if you what if what can you do positively if they do? Think about think about the reward aspect because a lot of people operate on reward conditioning rather than on punishment. So I like that you mentioned that because that alone is another way of thinking.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, anyone with ADHD will know this right out of the gate. Like you really, there's no consequence or punishment that works. We actually know that punishment generally doesn't work. It's just so painful to give up on the idea that if we could punish, it would help. I mean, it's really, it's sad, it's hard. And you're naming a clear truth that actually, you know, natural consequences can work, but rewards actually work best because our brains want a synaptic yes. We want a success feeling. Yeah. You're driven toward it. So if you have a feeling of good, and that doesn't mean you're giving money if you put a mug in the sink. It can be that it's just validating. It can be like, thank you so much for doing that. Because relational connection and positive reinforcement is in terms of the feeling between two people can be great. It can be that you go do something together. It can, it can be so many different possibilities, but it has to feel pleasure-filled. It has to feel good. And that actually makes things change. And if you think about it, adults do this all the time in our real lives. If I'm doing a podcast and then I think, oh, I'm gonna have a delicious lunch afterwards, I'm gonna reward myself. That is the same thing. I'm just doing it for me. So you don't have to be, you know, versus if you don't get on that podcast, you can't eat. Well, then I'm just sitting there thinking, like, I but I'm hungry, like I want, I want to eat, like, you know, and and I'm mopey about it. And so you, if you actually apply the feeling in yourself to the thing that we're asking of our even adult children, it's really we know what works because we have it in our own bodies.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah. I'm I'm a big fan of reward. I think everything is about reward, you know, love, money, uh, health, it's all reward, it's all what drives us. The punishment is what deters us, but the reward is what moves us. Absolutely. I love that. When a young adult is stuck, a lot of parents are unintentionally making it worse. And I think we just touched on something. They're making it worse because they think they have to like get angry with them and you know, that and and make them feel even worse for not putting the mug in the sink, so to speak. And and many parents are actually hoping that their adult child's gonna wake up one day and ready to conquer the world. So they're they're either doing something unintentionally wrong or whatever, in error, um, based on their own childhood, whatever it could be, or they're just doing nothing at all. How much of the solution is on the parent changing their approach? And I'll preface this by saying because a lot of young parents will come and say, What can I do to fix them? I want to fix them. They're broken, I want them to be better. And I'm thinking it's not the child, it's not the adult that's broken. I mean, they they're gonna definitely, they'll have their own issues for sure, but the work starts with you. So I'm at I'm I'm answering the question, but I'm I'm deferring it to you right now that how much of that is on the parent?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I mean, I I think I would actually, if it's okay with you, change the question a little bit instead of like on the parent. I think if you want to see change, the change can only lie with you because you can't make someone else change. So the idea to me is, you know, this is the power of modeling. First of all, if you change your behavior, you're already doing the best thing you can by modeling change. So stop saying to someone else, take a breath, you take a breath. You know, I mean, that how many times I remember saying to my kid, like, calm down. You know, I never I never said calm down because that would make me angry. But the idea is like, I want you to calm down. But actually, if I calm down, I'm modeling calming down, and that's much more impactful. So the power and control and strength that you have is in the thing that you are doing. And that is actually the only thing that you can change. So don't even bother trying to change them. There's no value in that. What you can change is the relationship you have to that child. You can change the way that you're interacting, you can change how you show up to it. There is so much that you can change, but worry so much less about their behavior in that way and worry about your own, right? So the difference between every day waking up and saying, Did you, oh, like, did you actually, you know, call the doctor you were supposed to call today versus deciding, you know, that you, if it's a medical condition and you want to be the one to take responsibility, then great. Then you call that doctor and you decide that's a way you're taking care of your child, or you decide that's on them to make the decision and you say, How can I support you in calling that doctor? Oh, you're not sure? Well, let me know if you are. Here are the options for the things that I could do. And then you let it go, right? You don't continue to come at them with the idea that they should actually do something different because you expect it. You do something different. You ask a different question. You put scaffolding in place differently. You make your own decisions about how you show up, and you don't let your own joy be determined by the thing that's happening between you and that child.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

I love that. So let's give parents some help. I mean, I think everything so far has been really constructive, but we're, you know, this podcast is about, you know, pain points and problem solving to the best that we can within the period of time we have. And again, I love the modeling. I love the modeling. It is, it's, and it's, it's really actually quite easy to take a look at yourself and your behavior and your emotions and how you're reacting and responding and make that the starting point for change. We call that emotional regulation. And these are terms that I actually use and then explain to the listener what emotional regulation is and the whole idea of co-regulation. So at this point, if they've listened to a few of these episodes, they already know. But are there other tips or bits of advice that you can share that you guide parents with in your practice that we can even suggest in addition to what's already been mentioned, which I think are great.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

In terms of moving the needle on sort of the dynamic. I mean, I think this idea that I mentioned before about putting the problem on the table and being collaborators in change is a really crucial one and a good place to start. And especially, you know, to me, that that can be concretized in a weekly meeting, even. You know, like let's let's talk about going over a calendar together every week. If you're living in my house, you know, that means that there's chores to be done. That means that there are things that have to happen. And we don't have to get into it in a daily way. We don't have to make big, you know, when are you getting a job kind of statements? But we can say that when we're living under the same roof, here are some shared expectations. And I could have an idea that the most important thing that has to happen is laundry. You, you know, my adult child could say the most important that has things that happen is that I want dinner on the table, right? And we'd be like, okay, well, great. Let's have a conversation about what that means. If I'm, if dinner is the thing that's expected from you and you want to have dinner with us every night, then what is the thing that you're responsible for? So that there's a shared adult space of having dinner. Are you cleaning up after dinner? Are you cooking once a week? But instead of telling, right? Like that's acting like uh you have a child, telling that that child of yours, right? Like what is it that you're doing? It's saying, what is it that you actually think would be an adult interaction here? What do you think would work? And then having that discussed in an ongoing way every week so that there's a reflection point, there are shared expectations, there's collaboration, there's this feeling of being on the same side of the table, because to me, that's an adult interaction versus a child interaction. You don't get to tell them what to do. And I think when we fall into the pattern of, but you're living under my roof, or you're, I'm supporting you. The problem is that that conversation really doesn't go anywhere. You know, unless you're really willing to kick them out, or you're really going to cut them off, or you're really going to do something that's going to send that message, then it's kind of an empty promise and you all know it. So the idea is like, how do we lovingly shift the dynamic to be something that feels better to all of us from a place of collaboration?

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Got it. So I'm hearing consistency, weekly check-ins.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Right. Then these are the things that parents it unfortunately does feel like an elastic band. You pull it, you think you've got it, but the second you let go of it goes back. So if you're consistent and you say every single week, we're going to kind of re-evaluate, revisit what we've discussed and see if it's working for us.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Love that. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

And in writing, I mean, that's it. Sorry, let me just not skip that. Let's not put words. Let's not go to words. They're silly. Um, I think we always want to talk about things. And especially if you have a kid with a complicated neuropsych profile, like an attentional disorder or spectrum disorder, which you know often can be, you know, or even depression that is suppressing the executive functions in that moment, you might not remember. You know, you and that can be legit, and then there's so much frustration. Well, we had that conversation last week. I think having someone say, let's take notes on this, let's put it out there together. That's not as punishment, that's as a way of reflecting. It's a way of holding it for both of us. And if we need to change it, we'll change it. But put that stuff in writing. And if I want to have hard conversations, I often will put that in writing first, even with my own kids. Like I will not, when some, because the thing, the time you want to have the conversation is when everyone's upset. That never works. And then when it's over, nobody wants to think about it. So put it in writing, reflect on what happened, what's the thing that we need to have change and how are we going to make that change going forward? And then have a version of it that's shared for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Love, love, love the writing. I'm a big, I can't tell you. First of all, I've I've been writing to my kids for for years, as for as far back as they could remember, we'd have a conversation. There'd be an issue, and I always refer to my kids because it's it's easier to do that. Um, and I would write them notes when they were sleeping so that when they would wake up in the morning, there would be clarity, what happened, the discussion we had, why this is important. And it's so funny because years later, when I'd be cleaning up their room, I'd find all these letters that I wrote about how we're gonna work on something. And and so I 100% love that idea. And I want parents to really believe that putting everything in writing, first of all, it gives you an opportunity to calm down. You're not gonna put anything in writing that you're gonna regret. And that's the things that they remember. They only hear the anger and they and the tone and the words you choose. But in writing, and it's also kind of contractual. And that's part of that's a life skill because in there's always they're gonna have contracts in their life. They're going to have these agreements and they're entitled to negotiate agreements. So I love the idea of putting things in writing. And you can't, you know, if you're gonna go back on what you wrote and what you agreed on, then you have to be accountable for that. So I love that. Um, there's a big issue of shame that many parents carry in this situation, um, especially around the loss of control of or influence over their young adults. How can we help parents get past that?

SPEAKER_02 28:35

I mean, what a huge question. I mean, I think we all sit with so much shame around, you know, the it really comes from a I think it actually comes from a kind of beautiful place of wishing for it to have gone differently, right? Of want, you know, it's it's coming from a genuine wish that our kids were doing better, that things felt better. And I so I like to also take a moment to say it's giving us information, right? You know, that and and that's important to know that we actually have this real like love and wish for movement. But I think that, you know, the shame that we feel is around the disappointment and the grief and being able to pull that apart, right? It doesn't mean that you did anything wrong or bad. It could, it could, you could have done things that are wrong, but people are allowed to make mistakes too, and we can move forward and be forgiven for those mistakes. So the idea is to sort of separate out the feeling of shame from what's going on now. To like that feeling, you know, I'm a failure, I didn't do what I was supposed to do, is giving us information about younger parts of ourselves that don't feel good. We want to really see them and hold them and understand that actually we can move forward differently, we can forgive ourselves and we can heal those wounds and that doesn't have to be healed before we make a change behaviorally. And I think that that separation is really important to me, that we can we can hold space and say, like, I am feeling shame without acting from the shame, without without behaving from a place of, you know, I'm I'm a failure as a parent, right? I feel shame about the ways I failed as a parent. And there's nothing I can do well anymore is really different than oh, when he doesn't leave his room every day. It touches the feeling that I didn't, that I didn't do something I was supposed to do when he was younger and the shame that kind of overcomes me. And I need to put that shame, I need to examine that shame and but put it away while I try to do something different with him now.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

That's beautifully said. I love that. It's almost like uh putting logic to the feeling, making sense of the feeling. So instead of getting into the weeds and feeling all the shame and and guilt, that you kind of look at it from almost like a separate point of view. Looking at yourself, experience this and almost finding the the reason, there's a purpose, and there's growth. If you can recognize that, yes, I feel I feel terrible about this situation, but I can fix it, I can do better. So I I like how you're kind of turning this into like not just a feeling, but an acknowledgement of it, a thought that goes ahead around it. I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

I think it's I hope it's organizing. You know, I think that when we're feeling overwhelmed or flooded by feelings, you know, there should always be space for those, those feelings, right? It's very important to name, right? Like name it to tame it when we're really young, right? It's it's so important and it really helps, but it also organizes it and it gives it some holder or container versus acting from the feeling. And I just find over and over again that I I want to be able to say to you, I feel overwhelmed, I feel sad, I feel I'm I'm grieving, but I don't want to mope around or yell or be saying like I'm a failure. Those things are really different and they allow for different kinds of movement. And so I'm hoping that that kind of organization really does give space to make change differently without sort of foreclosing the experience.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Okay, so for the listener, it's a it's going from I am to I feel. Wouldn't that be it? I am a failure. I feel as if I failed. And that's creating a distance, space between you and the feeling. Okay, good. Um other than the obvious signs that a young adult isn't moving forward, what other behaviors do parents often uh dismiss or minimize that actually signal their adult is struggling to function day to day? So I'm now leaning into the executive functions, which is your thing, I know, but I also know how passionate you are about a lot of these other things. But I we have to get into that executive functioning issues, um, how important they are. If you want, you can kind of elaborate on them a little bit. Um, and especially when they're lacking in a young adult, how does that impact them, even as a teen?

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Yeah, I mean, what a great question. I I think the the alarm bells to me are around functioning, meaning it's one thing to run a little late in, you know, intermittently. It's another thing to be really feel out of control of time. So when you're dealing with a kid who can't get to school on time, their experience is I can't get to school on time, I don't know what to do differently. I don't know how to get myself there. It's not a lack of desire. You know, you're sort of like, what are you lazy? You're not getting up, but it's like you're watching them really struggle. They can't, they're not internalizing time, they're not able to map out and plan where they're going. They have a deadline or a thing they want to do and they're not doing it, right? I want to go meet my friends for coffee at 10 a.m. on Saturday morning and I'm two hours late and I feel terribly about it. I think that it's it's where that sort of the feelings and scheduling kind of intersect in a in a painful way. Um that it's also not remembering things. And what I mean is like working memory, like the steps to make things happen. So if you have a young adult who's trying to go out to work and the they can't get that wallet, keys, phone, charger, you know, lunch, like those core things that they want in their day down. And you're and you're feeling as though if you don't help that that isn't gonna happen, you know, it's telling you that there's something that's being missed in terms of what it means to develop into adulthood, right? To to be able to get the things that you want to get done done, to be able to make a list and follow through. Right. These are you, it's a you want to watch the things that you want to prioritize happen. Or a real misunderstanding of priorities is an alarm bell to me. You know, that you're, you know, that it doesn't seem to be different that you have to get your grandmother an 80th birthday present before her party on Saturday, but also, you know, in a month is one of your best friends, you know, third at the 23rd party, and you're supposed to bring a bottle of alcohol, but you're like focused on that instead. You know, it's it's like a real, and you're watching, you'll be like, huh, that seems like they're not understanding what the priorities are in this. And then the last one is like dysregulation, you know, the real understanding that like regulatory behaviors, going to bed on time, exercising, eating regularly, and keeping your emotions in check, that those things aren't aligned with the people that are at the same chronological age. All of these to me are alarm bells, you know, that there's a way in which things aren't moving in the direction that I would expect. And it tends to, as a parent, I feel as though it's sort of a gut feeling. Like, why? Like I'm it's nagging at me. You know, that's it, like something is nagging, and it's not just my own frustration. I feel worried. Yeah and worried, you know, and and I that's sort of setting me up to say, wait, why aren't you doing that? Why isn't that happening? I'm confused. I thought we try to help you with that. Hey, we we made a list, it's not changing your behavior, right? So those are the things that actually end up causing me to say, hold on, something is is not coming together here. We need to really focus on changing these behaviors.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Got it. So so you've listed a few of them. And it's interesting because let's say laundry, for example, you just say, you know, where can't you get your laundry done? You have no, you don't even have any more clothes to wear. You're wearing my clothes, and I'm not gonna let you wear my clothes. So you need to, but laundry is an organizational task. Yes. So the parent can start that that's like a a red flag. It's not that they don't want to do their laundry. Of course they want clean clothes. Of course they would love you to do their clean their laundry. But the problem is that they don't know the steps. And so I'll say to parents, all you know, the that, you know, it's a five minute thing because as an ADHD person, I understand intuitively that if I can give if something takes me five minutes to do, I'll do it. All day long, I'll do five minute tasks. I'll get myself to the gym saying I'm just going for five minutes. So I'll say to parents, it takes five minutes to take that pile of clothes and go dark lights. First of all, it's teaching them how to do separate their laundry, but it's five minutes. That's all I want you to do. Just separate your clothes. That's it. No, we'll get to we'll get or put everything into a basket. How about that? Here's the basket, throw it in. We're done for the day. Tomorrow we separate. You know what I mean? Like so these are like alarm, these are red flags. Like, why? And I love that you said the prioritizing thing because a lot of parents are like, you just don't care about those things. They're struggling with those things. It's not that they don't care. These kids aren't bad kids. They really, these executive functions are really, and parents aren't aware of them. They just keep thinking they've got a lazy kid or a kid that doesn't care, a selfish kid. But the truth is that these are executive functions and they have to be handled differently. But are parents equipped? Do they know what they should be doing differently to handle these tasks, these adult tasks that aren't getting done? So that's why I'm like, I love the idea of talking about them and giving parents suggestions on, you know, when it's an executive function, here's how you will know. And I like your idea because you don't have to be an expert to have a gut feeling that something doesn't feel right. Why is this so hard for you? Why, you know, time blindness. What do they even know a time blindness? No, you're not, you're not late because you're selfish. You're late because you have trouble understanding how time works. And that, you know, you have to, you don't, you don't back things up and all these balls in the air, you don't realize that what has to be done. Making your uh a meal and the steps it takes in a recipe. They they just it all you look at the kitchen, it's a complete mess. It's not that they're messy, they literally have trouble with the steps in a recipe. And so, but these are things that uh that parents just have to realize okay, it's you really are you really have to go back to teaching and coaching and advising. You're not even parenting anymore. You've got this young adult in your house, and yes, it's a it's call it like a roommate. And and your roommate needs a little bit of help. They need to know how we're gonna function in this house together, but they need your support, they need your guidance. And so that's why, you know, I talk about we talk about executive functions as it's separate from it's almost like an issue that's manageable. It's more manageable to know that there's executive function issues and it's just a bad personality.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Right. And statistically, the chances that you have a kid that's really lazy and like doesn't want to do it, it's really low. And and actually, even more than that, if if they are not wanting to do it and they're that that's also its own sadness, you know, then then it's like it's not actually that there's it's it's not an affront to you. That means that we're lacking motivation, and that's also a problem. So I think there's a way to treat this from if they don't want to do it, that's sad, right? Because they're missing that no one feels good when they're not doing things. This never feels good. So if you're not getting stuff done, if you're not, if you're missing deadlines, if you're not prioritizing, it doesn't feel good. And as parents, we want our kids to feel good. So the thing we're trying to help them do is feel good, what is gonna help you feel good about this is another kind of question. We don't, I don't have to be mad at you that you're not cooking dinner on time, but I can tell you, you know, if if you're going to cook, how can I help you get the meal done in a time that's gonna work for everybody so that it feels good to everybody? Because we want you to have the the deliciousness of having cooked a meal that everyone's excited about versus it being done at 9 p.m. and we all went to bed and you didn't get to actually enjoy people enjoying your meal. You know, there's so it's actually getting into it. It it rarely feels good when you don't do the thing that you said you're gonna do in the way that you're gonna do it. And time blindness, right? It's not, you don't feel time. So when somebody says five minutes, you don't have a hustle in you because you don't have a sense of what five minutes is gonna be. And so to help by setting a visual timer and you making sure that that's utilized and saying, you know, as like a pie chart moves versus five minutes really is a game changer. And to be on the same side of the table of like, how do we help you feel time so that there's more sense of urgency to get something done or a hustle to get out is a very different conversation than it's five minutes. Why are you not ready? So it's it's again, it's making sure that we're anticipating these problems and trying to offer scaffolding that's appropriate to the change you want to make versus the frustration of the pattern over and over again of it not being accomplished.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

It's funny, I'm getting a lot of this compassion from you. You know, you're not just this professional and who does what they do and looks for the end goal and wants the behavior to be changed. There's so much compassion, and I and I'm guessing that comes from you as a parent.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

There's you know, yeah, it's funny because I actually consider myself, I can be pretty sharp and I'm considered to be a like harsh. Like I think my youngest sister sometimes that's like you don't like me. It's like something, you know, because I'm glaring or irritable. And I I'm not the, you know, whenever someone says you're so nice, I'm like, no, I'm not, you know, like I'm not a very nice person. But I do think, you know, my daughter really taught me a very hard lesson when I, when she was um not going to school. And I was getting so upset and frustrated. And I was, and I I was just desperate. And I said things, you know, I was like, get up, you know, like you just have to get up. Like I, you know, and I and I was saying things, come the things that are coming out of my mouth are terribly unhelpful. Um, I would not, you know, say them that are here, but they were coming out of my mouth. And she said to me, you know, mommy, you're only mean when you're scared. And I, I, you know, I was sort of uh wow silenced by my at that point 14-year-old. Um, because I really sat and I realized she was right that I was scared. I was scared about her well-being. I was scared that I didn't know how to help her. And I was getting desperate. And so in my desperation, I was taking that out from the hopelessness and desperation, like, just do it, like just get up, you know. And then and her experience is like, if I could do that, I would. Do you think I'm liking this? Yeah. Like, why are you being mean to me? You know, and I, and I was like, I I I didn't even hear myself as being mean because I was just desperate. And so I think my my compassion is really one of having been told, think about what you're scared about. And it's like, oh, I'm I am, I love her and I'm scared she's unhappy. I'm scared she can't do these things. And I need to take it down so many notches to just sit with her in her experience and then try to make really small changes. Like, okay, you're right. I am scared that you're not going to school. Why am I scared? I said, what's going to happen to her? Like, okay, actually, it's okay. It's, you know, so she's not going to go to school for a few months. Like, what's the what's terrible about that? She's not, she's not going to never not learn again. She's not going to the only bad thing that happens is actually if I'm escalating the problem by making her feel terribly about herself that she's not going to school. She also wants to go to school. How do I help her? How do I help her get to school? What are the things I need to do? It's like I had to take it, I had to really simplify it. You know, but I was getting so panicked and intense about what I thought as this behavioral change that needed to happen. And so I lost my compassion. So I think in, you know, I appreciate you giving that feedback. I'm sorry for the long-winded response, but I think it's really getting to, oh, I was shown by my own kid that that's the only option.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Yeah. I love that. I love that. You know, it's at the end of the day, we're every everything that comes out of our mouth to our kids. I mean, you know, we have to take our time, we have to walk away from situations before we have these emotional reactions. But when we can explain to them that I reacted that way because I was afraid, I'm scared, I worry, you know, um, I think that humanizes us to our children, you know.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Um I also just did something I want to name that because it's it's a little funny, which is that I've gone on too long. And that's another thing as parents that we always do, is that we just go on too long. Like we start talking and talking and talking, and we lose our kids within the first, you know, 30 seconds of the conversation we're having. So even though I have gone on too long and not modeled this, one of the things I really try to stick to when I have conversations with my kids is real clarity about like what's the point of the thing we're talking about, what are the three things I want to say, checking to make sure it's responded to and that they understand, and stopping before they do that phase out, you know, I'm not listening to you thing. Right. I mean, if you just read the room, I know. Well, I mean, it's the same. Did I I mean I lose people all the time, like, oh wait, I lost you. So sorry. I'm back.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

No, it's uh I call it dissociating. Yeah, right? Like they're but they're not. I'm there, but I'm not. But I didn't you didn't lose me. But I I appreciate your point that for the parent that's listening, that brevity, yeah, brevity is key. Yeah, because you will lose them. And we don't want that, you know. And also we we don't want them, oh God, they won't have another conversation with us. It's gonna be on and on and on. We want them to know that I'm gonna we're gonna have a conversation. It won't last long. We're gonna get right to the point, but it has to be said.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Yeah, and it's even a given amount of time. That's even better. It's like, let's set a timer for 12 minutes. I promise wherever it is that we'll stop the conversation there. If you need a break, go take a break. Also, take a walk. You do something. Like, you know, that's the other thing. It's like sitting there and staring at someone, having a hard conversation is rarely the way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Best conversations happen in a walk or a drive. Even a drive, right? Not staring at each other. Because it's the it is the one that that con that eye contact that's hard sometimes for people, um, for young adults, even. Um, I forgot I was gonna say, oh, now I remember. Quick question. When I say quick question to my kids, or anybody for that matter, I have their attention. And I promised it's gonna be a quick question. It's gonna not gonna be a soliloquy. So I find that that's a great opener. It's a promise that I'm gonna ask you something, it won't be for long, but quick question. It's just little things I say. I need five minutes of your time. And I never expect my kids to always be available to me either. That's out. My kids are busy, they're older. Uh, I don't call them. I'll I'll in fact, I'll text them saying, call, can we talk? Is there is it a good time? I would never just pick up the phone and call my kids. That is not I wouldn't want them to do that to me. They don't know what they don't know how busy, well, I should say they do know how busy I am, and they're equally busy. So this kind of mutual respect of our time is actually very appreciated and encourages more conversation just in shorter increments. So um, yes, so restoring the relationship. That's what we're working towards, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Restoring the relationship, because you can't actually make change without the rapport, right? I mean, it's uh there's no reason, you know, to to bother if you don't have a good relationship.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's the core. It's and it's uh that's why I often talk about connection. It's communication, but sometimes communication is not talking. But that connection, when was a lot of times parents forget to do things with their adult kids. Yeah, and so I say if you want them out of the room, give them a reason, run an errand, grab a coffee, like do something because they do want to get out of there, they just have nothing to do, especially if they're not right.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

And yeah, and the other thing is, you know, my my daughter also taught me this, so she in a not the nicest way, but she definitely said to me, you know, stop asking me to do things that you want to do, ask me to do things that I want to do. And and that was really hard for me because uh it's true. I don't want to go to the mall. I want to confess that to you now. Like it's pretty much my nightmare. It's inside, there are no windows, it's got consumerism. I'm like, I struggle. That is the thing that she wants to do. And I'll be like, let's take a walk in nature, you know, like that's the thing that I want to do. Or why don't we go for a run together? You know, and she's looking at me like, do I like those things? And I was like, uh, no. And and it's true, you know, I needed to think, okay, well, what's the thing that we actually both want to do? What actually feels fueling versus again with this fantasy that we have a thing that I want her to do the thing that I want her to do. And that is unhelpful. And so I think evaluating in a more genuine way what is gonna be motivating, instead of over and over again saying, like, do you want to go take a walk with me? If your kid doesn't want to take a walk and you don't like video games, like that's still worth getting out of the room to play some video games if that's gonna help you connect. And sometimes we have to sacrifice the thing we want to do for the connection. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

If you're gonna go to a movie with them, it's not a movie you want to go see. It's that it's a movie that or they want to go see, although I've done that for years. I told my kids at one age, I am never seeing another talking animal again. Like we are so done with Disney. Um and I I always love to leave on a positive note for parents who feel so discouraged and worn down. What is the one thing, the one thing that they can take away from today's conversation?

SPEAKER_02 50:19

You know, I mean, first of all, that you're in good company, which I just think also, you know, we're not alone in this, which I think you're doing a beautiful job of communicating, right? And just having this podcast of like this is something that is much more common to struggle with. And so to just feel in community, which I think really is a beautiful gift. Um, but the other and the other piece of it is to go back to something you said earlier, uh, if there's there's always change to be made. And and if you can't find it, make it smaller, right? So if you it can be so simple, it can be turning off the lights when they used to leave them on, it can be putting the laundry in the basket, but that go for small change over the larger wish that things shift, because that small change will bring the hope, will bring the movement. And I think that it is really what our brains want, right? If once we feel that hope, it's it's air, it's really, it's oxygen in our tanks, it feels good. And so if you're sitting here today, being like, I feel hopeless, I feel helpless, name it, say, okay, I'm feeling hopeless and helpless, and find a tiny thing that would feel different to you and move on that, move on that alone, let go of the larger narrative, focus on it, and try to be a collaborator in making that change so you feel the hope.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Yeah, it's all about those little baby steps, little tiny little actions. And actions are what create motivation because it's that feeling. So movement, momentum, baby steps, it's all good. Um, you know, usually I do end each episode talking about hope. Oh, really? Yeah, because parents need that. But we know that hope alone is not gonna really activate the change and that constructive action does. And I think today you gave parents some really good, really good tidbits and nuggets of advice and the reassurance um that they will actually, if they listen, will move the needle, right? So I can't thank you enough. I was looking forward to this conversation. It's everything I wanted to be. You met my expectations.

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Well, thank you. Woo! It's like a first time in the long time I've met anyone I've met.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Thank you very much. It's really wonderful to be in this kind of dialogue. And it actually helps me feel more together with other people who are going through similar things. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah, yeah. Parenting is hard. It's it's hard. It's no joke. Let's leave on that. Okay. All right, Anna. Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood. If you found this topic helpful, feel free to leave a comment and hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Leaving a five-star review helps us reach more parents who are dealing with the same issues. And if there's something you want to ask me, I invite you to join Launch Advice, my weekly publication where I answer one question from parents just like you. It's free advice that will appear in your inbox probably when you need it the most. Just click Launch Advice in the show notes and don't forget to email me your confidential question. And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult. Talk to you soon.