Mindful, Happy Kids
Petitations (pet-centered meditations), interviews and stories for kids. Interviews with artists, authors, musicians, editors, illustrators teachers, and mindfullnes/meditation and yoga practitioners. It's not just for kids any more. Find the website at www.mindfulhappykids.com for links to the podcast and YouTube videos, pdf's of Dr. Paige's children's books on gratitude, compassion, mindfulness and yoga and examples of Petitations set to music.
Mindful, Happy Kids
Interview with Donna Sager Cowan
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In this interview, Donna talks about her work on a series of animal superheroes books, her editing, and her podcast.
Interview by Elisabeth Paige
Music composed and played by Natalie Hagwood on the cello and Casey Lipska on the string bass.
You can find information about Dr. Elisabeth Paige at www.mindfulhappykids.com.
This is Donna Sager Cowan, and she's a children's book author, and she also works with other authors to help them guide their book writing process. And she just started a podcast. So we're going to talk to all about all of that during this segment. So, Donna, welcome and thank you very much for doing this with me. Oh, well, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you today and talk about all the crazy things that I do. And it's like I, you know, I started off really, really small. I had no idea it was going to explode into all these other things that I now do, but it's exciting and I'm constantly learning and moving and changing. And I think that's kind of what it takes to be in this industry.
SPEAKER_00Were there any authors in your family?
SPEAKER_01No, actually, I am the only author in my family. My mom was a very prolific reader. And so she did kind of inspire that love of reading. But for me, it was an interesting journey. I did not know that you were supposed to wait till you go to school to learn how to read. I thought this was some kind of fancy code that I needed to break. So when I was about three or four years old, when my older brothers and sisters were going to school, I would swipe their books when they would come home. And coming from a large family, I could easily do this where I would go to different family members going, what is this word? What is this word? What is this word? And then I would just repeat it over and over again, find it everywhere I could inside their books. And, you know, by a week or so, I could get 10, 20 words in. And so by the time I actually started kindergarten, I could read probably at a first or second grade level, which was surprising. But to me, it opened this entire world where I could have friends all the time with me. Because being the youngest, sometimes you feel like you're left behind or you're always playing this game of ketchup. And these characters in books were my playmates. They were what inspired me to want to change the story so that we could do something different. And it was just a child's view of these are my playmates.
SPEAKER_00And when did you start doing your own writing?
SPEAKER_01Well, I didn't actually believe I could write. And a teacher gave me a book. Now, the book itself is really probably not that great for that age group, and it wasn't that exciting of a book. But the point behind the book, it was the man in the box, and it was about a man who had gone to the Vietnam War and was captured. And it talks about, you know, him getting through being captured and survival and coming back to the United States and all the things that he went through. And like I said, the story itself wasn't that exciting for me, especially at that age. But what it did is spark the idea in me that if this person with no education and no background in writing could write a book, then why couldn't I? And so this is where I just kind of go and you know, it was an aha moment for me. It's like I can do this. And so I did. I started writing. So what did you start writing? Well, you know, honestly, I tried everything. You know, it's you know, in nine or 10 years old, you're just writing about your life, you know, and it's like when we now call it journaling. Back then they called it a diary, but I didn't want to talk about me. I wanted to talk about the imagination me or what I imagined my life should be. So that was what I was writing about.
SPEAKER_00Can you give me an example?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, so you know, I would I would imagine that I was, you know, this princess, you know, very, very Cinderella-esque, that, you know, I was this princess that was stuck in this ordinary, you know, world and that somebody was going to figure it out and come and rescue me and take me to the life that I deserve that was full of adventure and travel and all of these crazy things. It was again, it was an escape for me. It was about me going on these amazing adventures that really weren't likely to happen in my normal life.
SPEAKER_00Did your family support your writing?
SPEAKER_01Um, yes and no. I mean, for the most part, it was my mom who supported it. Uh, because again, she was a reader, so she could see that this was, you know, an avenue for me and an outlet for me. The rest of my family is like they would listen to my stories and stuff like that when I would get up the courage to tell them. And it it almost became this nightly ritual that, you know, they would give me some idea and I would make up a story about it and we'd all laugh about it around the dinner table. But I don't really think anyone except my mom took it seriously. I think they just thought this was a phase that I was going through.
SPEAKER_00Pretty long phase. Yes, yes, a very long phase. Did you study writing in school?
SPEAKER_01Um, I did study some writing. I I was an English major, so all of that translates to writing, but I'm also more of a hands-on, let's get in there and do it and see what you can learn and you know, talk to people. And um, so I don't have any formal writing education, but I do have a lot of, let's shall we say, um connected education around writing. And uh again, like I said, I I don't know that that that makes you a better writer one way or the other. It certainly helps in guiding you through the process, but I I often find a lot of writers that do well um don't have these uh rigid expectations about what writing is.
SPEAKER_00When did you start doing children's writing?
SPEAKER_01Well, children's writing, I've kind of uh again dabbled pretty much in every genre out there. Um, and for the most part, I just never felt like I was good enough. And I so I really didn't share it too much. You know, I'd send something out every once in a while or uh let somebody read it. And it was just so nerve-wracking for me that I just really kind of pulled in and it was more something I did for myself. And then my grandkids came along, and so we were doing this nightly ritual where I was either reading them a book or I was telling them a story that I made up. And uh my granddaughter came to me and she asked me this question, it was just a random question about my cats. I have five of them, and I just didn't have an answer for her, but it really percolated the story in my mind. So a couple of weeks later, on our one of our nights, I told the story about, you know, my cat being a suit, a secret superhero. And, you know, she went on these amazing adventures to rescue her friends at night, and that's why she was out all night long. And they absolutely loved the story. They asked for it repeatedly over and over again. Then they came back and they're like, Well, can you write this down so we can tell our friends because we can't remember it all? And I'm like, okay. So I started writing the story and realized very quickly that it needed some backstory because it just wasn't working. And so this is kind of where the superhero school series started. Because where would an animal go to learn to be a superhero? But superhero school. So this is kind of where the series started, and it was really sparked by a question from my own granddaughter. So I always say, you know, you never know where inspiration is gonna come from.
SPEAKER_00So she's really the one who influenced your writing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she did. And you know, they all together, cumulative, have really uh given me the courage to step out and actually publish my work. And it it's been an amazing journey. I really wish that I had had that courage early on to go ahead and and you know, step out there because it's been very, very good feedback. So I'm always excited about that. And I, you know, and I would just tell people it's like if you're worried that you're not enough something or other, fill in the blank, just do it anyway. Because I do regret the years that I let pass without you know publishing. But again, it's it's it's a nice thing for me now because it does inspire my grandkids that you know, dreams never die and you can still go after them when you're older. So that's an amazing lesson that I would have never um thought would come about because of my own writing.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk a little bit about the superhero series?
SPEAKER_01Um, absolutely. So the superhero school series, as I said, was sparked uh from this original story, and it's about uh animals in this anthropomorphic world, which basically just means animals acting like humans, uh, that they are going to superhero school. Now, superhero school is kind of a backdrop to the main story, which is a cast of characters who are dealing with very similar issues that my grandchildren were dealing with, things that they were asking me about, talking about you know, friends in their classroom who were homeless, uh, talking about what are good friendships, what are bad friendships, uh, talking about courage, talking about integrity, talking about, you know, greed and uh, you know, bullying and stuff like that. So I kind of let the cast of characters go through their own emotions and thoughts to try and spark that conversation with the reader about what it is that makes you who you are, that it's all about making choices. In the first book, with the courage of a mouse, Simon Cheddar, who is the one of the main characters, he is a mouse, he says, you know, that uh choices make heroes, not powers. And he's right. It's all about what you choose. You can choose to be a nice person, you can choose to be a good friend, you can choose to be a bully if you want to. So that's what I'm hoping um comes forward in my writing and my stories.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. And how many have you written?
SPEAKER_01Well, at this point, as you can see, I have the trilogy up in a coloring book. I do have um the new spin-off series for Ricky Rant Street Rat. He's one of the side characters in the superhero school series. His book is coming out soon, and of course, the fourth book um with the heart of a hero is going to be coming out later in 2022. We we haven't set a date yet for that, but it is coming. So, and then of course, the series will expand to an eight series, and the Ricky Rant looks like it's probably going to go to a five or six book series, and you know, I'm always coming up with new stuff, and and I do get feedback from fans and readers, which is kind of why we have the new Ricky Rant series. So I suspect we'll probably have more spin-off series from that one too. What's the grade level? Um, they are considered middle grade chapter books, so they are ages seven to 12 or grades three through six.
SPEAKER_00What made you decide to write in this genre?
SPEAKER_01Well, again, it was about my grandkids. And, you know, we had so many conversations about the the things that they were dealing with uh with their friends and with their contemporaries in school and stuff like that, they really had not a lot of direction on. Like, you know, how do you talk to somebody who is experiencing issues at home? What should they talk about with them? What should they just pretend they don't know? You know, uh, you know, should they bring extra lunch for the kids that they see that are obviously not eating? Uh, you know, what about the kids that, you know, constantly show up at school in the same outfit every day? Should they offer them an extra shirt or sweater? These were kind of the conversations I was having with my grandkids. And, you know, again, there's no, there are no easy answers to this. And so this is why I tried to talk to them, you know, independently and through the book about making choices. What do you think is the right thing to do? You know, follow your heart, follow, follow your intuition. And that's one of the big lessons in the superhero school is that you really do have all the tools that you need to prepare you and go through life if you just listen to your heart and listen to the lessons that you've learned. Um, you know, and you know, speak to you know, adults and knowledgeable people when you have questions, but in the end, you are responsible for your own decisions. And this is kind of again sparking the conversation within families about how do you make choices, you know, as they're growing up, especially in this age of the seven to twelve. This is when they create their persona. This is when they decide who they're going to be through life. And so why not give them some help and some questions and some ideas to think about all those choices that they make almost without realizing it?
SPEAKER_00What made this what made you decide to self-publish?
SPEAKER_01Well, self-publishing is a is not for everyone. And for me, it was mostly about controlling my own destiny. I I had a vision for how I wanted my books to look. I had a vision for the illustrations that I wanted within my book, and I had a vision of what I did and did not want to do as far as promoting my book. And so to have all those decisions, yes, you can negotiate those with a traditional publisher, but it is a little more difficult, especially as a new author. So for me, it was seriously about just being more in control of my destiny, especially as an author and with a book that I can decide when and where I want to promote. I can decide on pricing, I can decide on you know my own cover and the illustrations that go inside of it. And the story is mine. I get to decide what stays and what doesn't. So again, it's a lot more work. Um, but I enjoy it more because I get to make all those decisions. What do you get out of writing? I, you know, I I think I get mostly a sense of legacy that that my thoughts have some value, that my experiences have some value. But again, I keep going back to trying to offer my thoughts and spark conversation and imagination towards a future, towards something different, um, towards, you know, just projecting yourself in down the road. If I choose this, what is my life going to look like? If I choose that, what is my life gonna look like? So this, these are the things that have been important to me in developing myself. And I think they're they're not brought up in conversation enough. So that's what I hope to get with my writing is a legacy would be nice. Um, you know, to be recognized as a beloved author for my lifetime and beyond would be nice. But to me, it's about starting those conversations, it's about getting um kids back to reading with, you know, a fun, you know, adventure keeper with a bunch of animals that they can connect to. But in the end, it's just having value to what I have to say and my experiences. So that's kind of what I write. I have to, I have to write because if I didn't, I think my brain would explode.
SPEAKER_00I understand that feeling. Can you talk a bit about what you do with other authors?
SPEAKER_01Well, I you know, I do so many things. And again, when I started out, I just thought, you know, just writing and publishing a book was going to be this overwhelming mountain that I was gonna have to climb. And uh it and it was, but I've learned and uh I'm a voracious reader, and I do try to uh ask the questions and get the information. So I expanded into editing and coaching other authors because again, you don't know what you don't know, and a lot of times you don't know until you get to that point and you're like, oh my, I don't know how to do this, or I need to talk to somebody how to do this, or I don't know what the next step is. So, you know, that's kind of where I got into the coaching. And then uh I met um, you know, authors who had great ideas but were experiencing issues with the actual writing. So I developed into doing ghost writing, uh, which, you know, is is a different challenge, but I do love that. And, you know, now I've expanded into podcasting because what I found is a lot of people are so willing to tell you the right way to do something, and that's great, especially if they catch you at the right time. But what I often find is people get that information either too late or in a garbled message that you don't quite understand the order of things. And so things go wrong, things don't go as planned. And so this is where I step in is trying to give you avenues and tips and tools and maybe some shortcuts around those problems and those obstacles that you know we all as authors and writers run into. We just had no idea. It's almost like these invisible walls that are up everywhere. And, you know, if you don't know they're there, you don't know to look into them, you're gonna, you know, look for them, you're gonna run right into them. So that's kind of what I'm hoping to achieve with the uh podcast, The Writers Parachute. You know, we're bringing in authors and uh illustrators and other people associated with writing uh and you know, talking to them about, you know, some of the tips and tools that they see with the majority of their clients, some of the problems that they've run into themselves with uh, you know, getting their books done or with the writing and see if we can't guide them and give them some useful information. Because I that's what I find is you know, knowledge, knowledge is the cure to so many things.
SPEAKER_00How did you find an illustrator?
SPEAKER_01Well, interesting enough, uh I found both of my illustrators on Instagram. Now that's not to say that's the best place to go, but it's a good place to go looking because uh especially uh with illustrators and artists, now a lot of that's on TikTok now, too. But on Instagram, you do see a lot of those visual um arts work there. So um I did go with an illustrator to begin my series, and I did have to change illustrators in the middle of the series, uh, mostly because my illustrator's health and some other issues. And so um, you know, but amazingly enough, my new illustrator was actually my cover designer, and I had no idea that he had these extra talents. I mean, it was amazing to me that I found that, you know, he had this ability to do illustrations when I didn't even expect that. I was just asking him, since he did so many covers for children's books, I'm like, well, who is your great, you know, who would you recommend as an illustrator? And he's just like, well, I can do them. I was amazed. And um, like I said, we'd already worked together for you know several years. So he did know the series, he did know the story, and um I'm not finding anybody uh beyond working with him and my previous illustrator that truly understand the story and are able to interpret. And that you know, that's a big thing as an author that uh writes for children, especially if you're offering illustrations, is to find somebody who can help communicate that story because it is a partnership. You are telling a story and they are interpreting that into a visual format. So you really need to both be on the same page with that. So um it's been an amazing journey for me. I have heard from other authors that it's not been so much fun, but I would just say, you know, take the time in the beginning to make sure that um that everybody's on the same page, that you understand the concept together, and that you both are happy. Um, with the end result, because if you're making do or you're just accepting what is without any, you know, pushback or standing up for your own vision, then you're not going to be happy. And that unhappiness is probably going to come across in the way you talk about the book and the way you promote the book. So it does kind of create a cascade. So um I've been very fortunate to easily find illustrators. And as far as that goes, I allow my illustrator as much creative freedom as possible because that's what he's good at. I'm good at writing. So um, you know, and then we meet somewhere in the middle and and discuss why we're doing it a certain way and you know how how to make it work together. So I think uh if you approach it that way, it's very helpful.
SPEAKER_00And for my final question, how long does it take for you to write a book?
SPEAKER_01Um it it depends. Um right now, generally it takes me about four months to actually write the story from beginning to end. Um, it's taking me a little bit longer now, again, because I have many other things. It's like, you know, I have a huge ghostwriting project right now that I'm having to set aside a lot of things and work on the margins. You know, I've gotten more and more clients. So of course, you know, my writing gets set aside to work on theirs. Um, and now I have the podcast, but I am trying to manage that a little bit more. So we do try to put out uh at least one book a year. And um I'm hoping to uh manage that a little better and accelerate that to two. But again, you know, the illustrator has to wait for me to finish writing the book before they can start the illustrations. And sometimes I don't always catch them at the right moment to get them done. Um, so you know, it's it's about timing and about communication. So, you know, there's there, you know, there's many things. Uh a lot of times it isn't about how fast or how slow you write, it's about all the other um people that are involved, you know, such as creating your book covers, doing the interior layouts and those sorts of things that uh, you know, that do kind of slow the process down. But actually that's a fairly fast pace. Most traditional published uh books usually take anywhere from 18 months to two years to be published. So do you work with an editor? Um, I do work with the editor. I love my editor, she's very gentle and kind with um with her authors. So um I do appreciate it. Thank you so much, Dara. I love her to death. She does an amazing job for me. Um, and I I you know I tell people she she makes me sound very intelligent. So um I do appreciate that. You know, I I work as an editor too, but but I would, you know, I would never edit my own work because again, I'm too close to it. I can't see the flaws. I know what I mean to say. Do I actually say that? I don't know. That's why you have an editor.
SPEAKER_00Great. Is there anything else I missed?
SPEAKER_01Um, no, I think we we've done really well. I just want to mention the the writer's parachute. And um, again, I'm on all social media, so you can go follow me there. If you want to connect to me in any way, shape, or form, social media by the book or anything like that, you can uh reach me at donasagercowan.com. That's D-O-N-N-A, S as in Sam, A G E R C as in Cat O W A N.com.
SPEAKER_00Great. Thank you very much. I totally appreciate it and look forward to listening to your podcast and seeing your new book. Awesome.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for having me today, Liz. I am so uh so glad to get to come on here and talk about my books and about my writing and everything else that I do, and I do appreciate you. And I hope you guys go back and look at her catalog. She has some really great podcasts for you. So thank you so much.