SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome back, everybody, to expanding the zone. I'm Shane Combs alongside my brother Matt. Episode 79 is we're here in season eight, uh, show number two uh for this season. As uh we were excited to get started this past week. Appreciate all the uh positive feedback for those of you watching on uh YouTube. Uh make sure you're subscribed to the channel here so you you you know when expanding the zone comes out each and every time. And also get us on your podcast app so you can take us with you in the car while you're working out or wherever you go in terms of listening to your podcast. So uh Matt, welcome back here uh uh into the show. Uh excited to to get this one. We we've been talking about this one for quite some time. We've had a lot of feedback from some different people, and uh, we're talking about uh the new division format that that uh is is uh stirred uh quite the conversation and so forth. I guess the the term that's uh being thrown out the most is watered down. Uh so I guess if I was going to title the show, I I would ask the question watered down, uh new division format causing quite a stir. Uh before I go any further with that, uh, as I welcome you to the show, kind of kind of give us a little feedback here on uh what brought this topic to the forefront.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, I think over the last couple years since since Ohio went to seven divisions for um sports other than football, keep in mind they've been doing that for football for a while. Um there have been you know comments here and there saying this is watered down. Um you know teams are advancing further in tournament than they normally would. Um you know, I I don't know, you know, you see it on social media. I've had some people actually even personally say that's the way they feel. Um I know we'll talk a little bit about it tonight. I think there's some different motivations maybe as to why people say that. I think there are some that maybe have thought through it really feel that way. I think there are some that are maybe motivated a little bit more like, well, this, you know, how anything else goes right with change. Well, back in the day, that wasn't the way we did it, you know. So there's some of that there too. Um, maybe, maybe a little bit of bitterness of, you know, when when my team was in high school, we didn't go as far and we would have gone further this way. It's it's kind of like the old thing, you know, when when I was growing up, uh what I would consider the old timers would say, well, when I played, I didn't have the three-point line, you've got the three-point line. And then I could say to somebody nowadays, well, you play 22 games. We only played 20 games. You know, there's there's always something you can look back, right? So I think there's a little bit of that thing going on too. But for whatever the motivation is, Shane, and we can talk a little bit about it, this has been a little bit of a discussion the last couple years. Like I say, I see it on social media a little bit this year again for the second straight year. Uh in passing, some people have mentioned it. So I think we just thought it'd be an interesting topic to dig into a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Well, I I think it's really fascinating. I I guess I look at it in a couple different ways. I I like how you open that up there. I I the first thing I would ask is in what way is it watered down? When you say it waters down the product, uh, I guess I would ask of what? Is it is it the games? Do they think that uh I I heard the I heard the comment of there's a lot of blowouts early in early rounds. Well, I think that's been the the that's been what's been going on for quite some time now. Definitely is it the accomplishments? Is it like you mentioned the teams? I've even heard it on the individual side. Obviously, a lot more kids um making all district, making all Ohio. Um, don't always know if that's a bad thing. I certainly uh understand and respect the opinions of people in terms of comparing the different uh uh time periods and so forth to, as you said, the past to to the present. Maybe it is a bitterness in terms of the way it was uh then compared to now. I think I think you make some good points there. I I think what what I find as I study the topic is in leadership, because again, for people not familiar with expanding the zone, if you're a little new to us, I said last week as we started season eight, we always try to take these fun topics and we'll always steer it back toward leadership and we'll always try to look for different solutions and and kind of combine that entertainment factor with the leadership factor. I think sometimes, Matt, you got to be careful, you know. Are you mad? What are you mad at? You see what I'm saying? Like, so like when you look at a particular system, what is it that you're really upset with? Are you really upset with the extra divisions, or are you upset, as you said, because uh you wish it would have been different, like when you were you were coaching or playing or or whatever it might have been? Uh you know, are is are you frustrated that you know so and so didn't make all Ohio 10 years ago, but now this person does you see what I'm saying? Like there's a lot of I I get it from a lot of different angles. Um, and I think that's what uh we're gonna unpack. What what is what is it that you think is watered down in terms of from a coaching perspective, you've been doing this a long time now. Uh and did you ever feel at any point in the process that something was watered down?

SPEAKER_00 5:42

No, I never have, and I and I'll tell you why, Shane. Um I think that football has been doing division seven divisions for a while, and I think they did that because they saw a need for more competitive balance at the tournament level, um, school enrollments, you know, putting schools together that were closer on the enrollment scale, so to speak. Um and the other sports, for whatever reason, just lagged behind. My thing to people when they say this to me, this is the simplest way I can say it, okay? If you think that, like, take basketball, because that's where this came up mainly recently, right? The the basketball tournament for seven divisions. If you think basketball is watered down, or you could say baseball or whatever other sport, but if you think basketball is watered down, I can live with that theory if you also think football's watered down. My my only issue is I I've got to have some explanation for you if you tell me it's okay for football or it makes sense for football, but it doesn't make sense for the other sports. You see where I'm coming from on that? Because if you think about football, you know, we let 12 teams in per per you know uh region now, right? So, and then they that you know they play, there's four teams get a bye in football and they play it down to eight. So let's just start with the eight, which is actually the second round now in football. Okay, that's 32. That's the district finals in basketball, right? Um, so you would say with a 12-team format like they currently have in football, that's district quarterfinals. Well, guess what? That's exactly where basketball is, is district quarterfinals, even with letting everybody in. So my point is like, why do we think it's watered down for one sport and not the other sport? You see where I'm coming from on that?

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Well, no, I think that's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I think it leads you right into the first main question here of the agenda, now that we have the introduction out of the way, is what do you like about it most? So if you think back, I guess I guess the easiest place to start is let's take it right on the foundation level. We know how it was before, and for people that maybe didn't know, way back in the what, 80s or whatever, they had three classes and then they went to the four divisions, and it stayed that way in most sports pretty much the whole time. Now, some secondary sports had only three uh or not as many, and even they're going to start to grow to four or five, uh, is is is the way I understand it, right? Your cross country, your track, some of those. But for the most part, it's it had been the same way since probably the last few years of the decade of the 80s, all the way through here to the last, like you said, the couple years. And now they've extended expanded it out. So I would ask you first, on the positive side, what is it that you like about it the most?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

What I like about it the most, Shane, is it is it brings schools closer together in terms of enrollment within a division. And it and to me, that helps the competitive balance and competitive fairness of it. Okay, that's one. So for instance, I'm not going to use schools' names, but like right now, I just looked a little bit ago in our in the Southeast District for boys basketball, and if you take which what used to be what we call division two, which is a division that the school I coach at Uniota is in, has always been in here for the last several years, um, there would be a school in the in the old way, there would be uh one the highest school would be a hundred and five kids bigger than the smallest school of that division. You understand where I'm coming from? So you're talking a hundred and five boys bigger in the same division. Well, now that's not the way it is. Schools are much more much closer in terms of enrollment. The other thing I think it's done the last two years, no, it's a small sample size, right? So we've got to kind of see how this pans out. But the other thing it's done the last couple of years is I think, especially as in divisions four, five, six, and seven, if you look at the state tournament, you've had more public school success. All right. Bringing those schools closer together has helped take away a little bit of the advantage. You're never gonna take away all the advantage of the private school. Let's just call it what it is. Okay. I mean, private schools are allowed to openly recruit kids coming out of the age of eighth grade. Um that's gonna make somebody mad, and OHSA is gonna say, no, they can't really do it. Yeah, they can. They really can. Okay. So that you're always gonna have a little bit of unfairness there, I guess, with private public. We're never gonna go to two separate divisions for private public. So what this does is with the with the competitive balance um that's in place right now, where you know, when when when students move in, it counts for more in the enrollment. I don't want to get into every specific of that, but some people know what I'm talking about. That coupled with the seven divisions, I think is making things a little more fair. If you look, like I said, especially as divisions four, five, six, and seven, you're seeing more public school success, and I think that's part of it. So those are the two things, Shane, I like the most. The the fact that it's making things a little more fair between public-private, it's bringing that, it's closing that gap a little bit, and it's it's definitely, even if, even if you don't agree with that theory, the numbers show that it's closing the gap in enrollment. That's the whole reason, right? With the seven divisions is to narrow that enrollment gap in each division.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah, it's hard for me. I tell you, it's hard for me and in my notes not to point right to the top there and and piggyback a little bit what you're saying. Enrollment is real. Uh, you know, some people be like, ah, it's just an excuse. It's just that's where we'll have to agree to disagree right at the beginning of this discussion. If if you're watching this or listening to this and and and and you're not following me on that, that may be a point we because I have an entire career where I've just experienced it too much, right? I I've I have I have felt that in terms of um being an athletic director, being a coach of multiple sports. Um, you know to say enrollment doesn't really matter that much, that's just being blind to the truth. So uh you you mentioned the public private, you mentioned some of the different things, and and the way our area has even changed, you know, schools, schools that uh that had an enrollment 25, 30 years ago, that may not be the way it is now. You see what I'm saying? I think conferences are starting to fill it, I think uh the regular season, therefore, is starting to fill it. And as we get into the tournament and you're starting to look statewide, I I think that uh it's just needed. I guess if I was going to add anything to what you said, the thing I like about it is anytime you can get people in a room together where one of the smallest schools in the state and one of the biggest schools in the state can both look at at a common idea and they both can come away with like, yeah, I think that can help a little bit. I think you're on to something, right? I think we've even experienced that in some of our conference realignment here in Southeast Ohio. Most of our listeners are here in the Southeast District. I know we have some listeners, and we appreciate all of them, um, that that that uh tune in and watch us from out of state and so forth, but even those people probably have a past connection of some kind to Southeast Ohio. So, through a lot of conference realignment and so forth, I think we've even experienced this a little bit in terms of a lot of school districts aren't what they were 20 years ago. Like if you went to school somewhere back in the 90s, early 2000s, and then you were to visit that school now, I think you'd find that, well, well, wait a minute, this school's a lot bigger. Or wait, this school's a lot smaller, and a lot of resources start to change. So to me, I I've watched a lot of the new, the new division six or seven school come together, and I've watched a lot of new division two, three, four schools come together, and they both can look and be like, oh, wait a minute, that we might be on to something here. This is better. So anytime, you know, comment on that before we move on, real quick, from being an athletic director, leadership, anything, you start to get a lot of egos, a lot of ideas, a lot of perspectives in the room. It's hard to agree on something. So anytime you see you follow where I'm coming from there, anytime you can get different people together and and it all kind of points in a positive direction, there's got to be something there that to build on.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah, no, I think you're right, Shane. I think that's a positive. I want to go back to something you said right at the beginning of that comment, because I think it's it it it it's it's what I'm I guess trying to get across when you when I start saying, listen, if your argument is against the seven divisions, that's fine. I guess what bothers me is when people talk out of both sides of their mouth. I'll give you an example. You you you said it. You you said right up front there that you've had a career of being at a smaller school, right, within your league, and you know that enrollment matters. Is that what you I mean, I'm not wanting to put words in your mouth. That's basically what you said. Okay. So if enrollment matters in the league you're in, right, then enrollment matters in the tournament. So what I'm saying is, but the the problem is I know personally two people. One's a very good friend of mine, one's a person I know. Two people have said to me, Oh, this seven divisions is watered down, and both of those people have argued for league realignment due to enrollment. You see what I'm saying? Or argued that, hey, that it's unfair within a conference if a school's too big. But yet you're going to argue against the seven divisions. You understand where I'm coming from on that? To me, that's inconsistent because because if the whole idea is enrollment, then the whole idea is enrollment for both, for the tournament and for the league. So, no, I that was the thing you said there that jumped out at me, Shane. And obviously, like you said, um if there's something that can benefit the the biggest and smallest schools, and you you and I, we don't talk a lot pre-show, Shane, but you did briefly mention to me something earlier that made sense too, of it's not, it's really five divisions. In some ways, we've added a division, right? Like divisions one and two have been set aside, especially division one, for the biggest of the big schools, right? Like, so in our area of the state, division one and two don't matter all that much. I mean, that we don't have anybody in those divisions.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, and even even in the parts of the state they do. I think I think they recognize look, if we're going to do this, that there's unbelievable discrepancy. The only thing we can have you need to go to is if we have any Chillicothe high school listeners, maybe some Logan High School, they might comprehend a little bit of what we're talking about. Some of the years they got stuck in division one, and they were one of the smallest um division one um schools in the entire state. And I think they, if they were to come on here and talk to us about this, they would say, yeah, this competitive balance helps a little bit. Um you're you're exactly right. The the two division one's that are called division one and two are kind of put up there um out of the way on their own. And then you're correct, they went from four to five, but because they call it uh division one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven, I certainly think that that plays a big role. Um yeah, let's let's move to this part of it and and continue the discussion because I guess this will get into it a little bit. What do you dislike about the concept or format? It sounds like if if again, early on, that there's some things you like about it, but I'm sure you've been doing this long enough that where anything new rolls out, and I'm sure you can um nitpick at some different things or whatnot, or you'd like to see some things maybe done a little differently. What what on the dislike side would you start with?

SPEAKER_00 17:59

I don't really have any dislikes of just the seven division format. Okay. I I I still have some dislikes of how we do tournaments um in some of our sports. And I don't want to sometimes I feel like I'm really biased toward basketball because that's what I coach and I talk about. Um so I don't want to speak for every tournament, but I know like in basketball, and I'm sitting here thinking, I'm pretty sure it's this way. I know it's this way in baseball. Um I I think it's this way in the Southeast District, pretty much everything. You know, we went to the computer, not the computer points. The computer points is not in every sport, right? But we do computer points in basketball. I think we're starting, we're probably leaning toward that in some other sports that aren't there yet. So, like sports like baseball, volleyball, they still vote. But but what I'm saying is in in uh basketball, we use the computer points. Either way, whether you vote or use computer points, I've always had a problem with not being able to place yourself on the bracket based on where you finish in the voting or the points. Okay, the other districts do that. Uh every other district in Ohio, Southeast District is the only district that doesn't do that in the whole state of Ohio. Um, and quite frankly, I, you know, from what I can tell, it's just it's just out of stubbornness. I I don't there's never really been a valid argument as to why you wouldn't allow coaches to do that in the Southeast District when they do it everywhere else. I know the coaches are overwhelmingly in favor of it in basketball, I'm talking, and I'm assuming in some of the other sports too. Um but but that's really the only thing, Shane's little things like that. The process, as that makes sense, of the tournament, not so much the seven divisions. I think, you know, the seven divisions, I think is one of the better decisions we've made recently.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Yeah, I have a hard time agreeing with that last thing you you said there. I I was I was um in fact, I've even said it on expanding the zone over the last year or two in season uh six, and then again in season seven, I think I was on record of saying I'd like a fifth division, again, meaning what we we had talked about in terms of of just needing that extra ability to spread out. So I guess where I would start with is something we touched on there um at the end of the first segment, and that's the semantics of all of it. I I think you could really help people a lot by educating them a little bit on a few things. Number one is educating them on exactly how they went about taking um X amount of the biggest schools in Ohio and putting them in a division one and then doing it again for division two, and then kind of spreading out and and going. Um I I oftentimes wonder um if we couldn't uh educate some people and that rename them a little bit, if that wouldn't help um with the with some of the change. The second thing that jumps out at me is the OHSAA in this in the different districts have a have a unique divide sometimes in terms of the way they go about things. For for people that don't know, and Matt from an athletic director spot, if I if I speak out of out of line here, make sure you fix me. But long the the the basis of it is the OHSA takes over at what's called the regional level, right? So in the respective sports, if if it's at a district championship level or below, the Southeast District, in our case, kind of runs the show. If it gets to the regional level, the OHSA takes over. And how do they determine that for sport? Now they may have a different answer. If you had one of their representatives on here, I'm gonna tell you it's the dollar bill. I'm gonna tell you it's money. Um, you know, like why why do certain sports uh start at the district and go to the regional? Well, because the regional probably brings money, such as track. I'm sure a regional track meet brings a lot of money. Why why does golf go sectional district state? Well, the state probably doesn't want to mess with a regional golf tournament. Is that fair for before I go on?

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, I mean I think there's I mean, I think uh it's been my experience, most things at that level were driven financially.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Yeah. Yeah, so like what happens is uh with a lot of these different things is when you get into a lot of divisions and a lot of different things, it leads into another problem if it stays at the district level, is because you you get into a lot of different things with a lot of those games, a lot of brackets, a lot of uh media in the early round. Media is trying to cover it all, you're trying to get scheduling done, you're trying to get venues done, officials. And I think that's what bothers people more than anything. I think it was a little bit of the change and the confusion early on. I think some of that will ease up as time goes on, it'll become more of the norm. Uh, I I've always said give give our our our Southeast district leaders a little chance to do some trial and error. Uh, year by year, I think you'll see some things improve. But but I think that's probably the biggest thing that I don't like about it in terms of how it was rolled out. I think the semantics of all of it is when they just said, hey, here's seven divisions. I think that's why a lot of people had the reaction to the water down. It's because they weren't really educated on what those first two divisions really represent. Uh therefore they they I could see why they they think everything's almost doubled, and that's not really the case.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Right, right. Yeah, I think it's like anything else, you know, the better explanation you can have is going to you know maybe limit some of that confusion or whatever. Um, you're gonna have some people that are just change is you know, there's just you know, change is hard, right? And it's it's harder for some people than others. And so I think no matter what you do in that situation, there's gonna be some negative pushback. But yeah, I agree with you. I think sometimes things could probably be explained just a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Now, Matt, the other thing I want to, I guess this is gonna overlap a little bit. That's why I wanted to put it at the end of this segment, because I think it's gonna naturally roll over into our next segment where we're gonna be talking about how we would change some things moving forward. I I want to be careful not to get too far off topic, but I just feel like in in terms of show prep that this ends up aligning with it. So I want to throw this out at you almost more as an athletic director than I do as a coach, but I would like to see the fall sports season start a little earlier and allow more time for multi-sport athletes uh to get going. Because I think what happens is we talk about having a few more tournament games, because again, with the extra divisions, you do have some extra what we would consider the the sectional rounds, now called the district quarterfinal or whatever term you want to use. There, there could be some extra games that have to get played there. And I think what happens is these tournaments are starting to overlap so much. Like when you look at the expansion of the football uh playoffs, and then now you look at where like uh the basketball state tournament goes all the way in. I know uh John Bruce and I on So S overtime, we highlighted this a lot in terms of how if if you were at um you know Ironton there a couple years back or Wheelersburg this past fall, uh, or some of these schools that have been to the state, obviously Adina volleyball, they're they're a team that you know has gone to the state. New Lex volleyball made a run this year. And what's happening is those teams year in, year out, is they start to overlap. My fear is it's hurting more and more the push of the multi-sport athlete. Um, maybe you could even comment on this because I know at Uniota you've had some athletes now that have gone to the final four in baseball, they've gone to the playoffs and football, then you guys were all the way into the to the to the regional basketball, and then you started over again. And I think the ability to stretch the schedule out a little bit would allow to maybe get the early rounds scrunched in there a little bit, give even more advantage to the teams that have that have advanced out into the district semi and district finals and and get these things moving along a little quicker and offering the athlete and some of these programs of the next season that extra week, an extra 10 days. I mean, if if anyone's ever been involved in that, I know that doesn't sound like much, but anyone that's ever been involved in that, if you have seven to ten days for a break, just to step back and reset for an that's a huge, huge deal. And again, I don't want to get off into a whole nother show topic, but as we start to look at these new divisions and we start to put these schedules together and so forth, am I way off base there in terms of thinking if we would just all the way back in the fall, what is it right now, August 1st? I just wondered if we moved it up one week, 10 days, whatever it may be, to where week one of football and week one of volleyball just was seven to ten days earlier if we couldn't get ahead of the schedule all the way through the year so that by the time we got to winter and now in the spring, some kids would feel like they have more of an opportunity to be a two and three sport athlete.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, you know, I I think that I think that I, you know, I'm I'm not necessarily smart enough maybe to do this without really digging in on a calendar and looking. I I know I've been told in the past a lot of the way things get planned is is, you know, the state or the district, they work backwards from the state tournament, you know, toward the beginning of the season because of the venues, right? You have to have the right I mean the venues are important. I mean, that's one of the things the Southeast District is great is with the convo. I mean, that's a second-to-none really venue for a district level tournament. If you go a lot of other places, Shane, you you're playing in some high school gym, wherever, you know, to get to play in a convo is a big deal for kids. So I know venues are important, so a lot of times you're working backwards from that, assuming that like Canton or wherever the state football championship is, is available a week earlier, what you're saying makes sense, right? You could move it back, start the last week of July instead of August or whatever it is, a week, a week or two, maybe two might be a stretch, but at least a week, like you said, of starting earlier. Um, and yeah, maybe that would give some kids. You know, I know next year looking at the calendar, uh, just glancing at it, I do I think for whatever reason it feels a little bit more comfortable between football and basketball season. I think basketball starting a little bit later with our games might help some. Um so I don't know if that's a year-to-year thing based on what the calendar how the calendar shapes out and and the venues and all that. Uh, but I know you're right. I mean, these I I made the comment the other night um when we were having our banquet that the that the three-sport athlete is just it, it's I have a lot of respect for those guys. I mean, you're talking hardly any time off, no matter where you play. I mean, even if you play at a school that hasn't had tournament success and your seasons aren't running as long, it's still a lot of wear and tear on your body, right? I mean, you're you're playing three, you're going right from football to basketball and basketball to baseball. And if you are at a school that has tournament success, you're playing deep. Um, you know, we had a game scheduled with Wheelersburg in basketball this year and ended up getting snowed out. Um, but we would have played Wheelersburg a week after their state football championship. Think about that. They were gonna plug. They were gonna, I mean, I respect that. They were gonna play us in basketball six days after after they played, or seven days after they played in a state championship football game. That's how close. Now, is that an outlier? Yeah, they made made it to the state championship. Not every team does that, only a couple. But I'm just saying there's that possibility. So, but even if you don't make deep runs, those guys, those three sport athletes, I think if you talk to kids and their parents, they both tell you there's a certain level of burnout there. There's a certain level of fatigue and not only physical but mental that happens to those guys. And you're right, if there was some gap in between season to where you could say, hey, you know, good football season, uh, I don't want to see you for the next five days. Go home, relax, rest. Next week, start basketball, you know, or the same between basketball and baseball. So um, yeah, no, I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Well, Matt, on that same point, like if I was looking at some compromisers, I was if I was looking for some different things that maybe move this along. The other thing you said that I really have always agreed with, but I'm open-minded to uh how it looks different in this different format. The venues in in the Southeast District, um, you know, you mentioned the convo, uh, hard to argue that. And the basketball side, the VA, uh, when it comes to uh baseball in the spring. Right. Um, there's some really, really nice facilities, um, albeit at the high school level for softball and some different things in the area. But but I guess I would ask this is in the different format, if we are kind of moving away from what we've always known as the sectional rounds, sectional semifinal, sectional final, and then moving in the district semifinal, if we are calling it more of a district uh quarterfinal type thing, would we would we be better off looking at maybe moving that honor of playing in the convo back to like a district championship level? Um, maybe taking one of those rounds out to where uh possibly we could um get things in a little quicker. Because I guess what happens is it it accomplishes a couple things. One, it does move the honor of making the convo back that one step, since they're you could argue that an extra team or what what would that be? An extra say four teams are gonna get to the convo if you have that extra division than than we've had in a pass. But at the same time, you're gonna get other teams eliminated quicker. Like if you could play quicker and you didn't always have to wait on the I know I know from our SOSA coverage that the convo, gosh, I thought John Bruce told me we did like 30 games or whatever this year. Like it was nuts, like you know what I mean. But it was awesome, but don't get me wrong. I just wonder do you feel like the venue is such a value that it's worth the expansion of time? Am I saying that right? In other words, like if it wasn't at the convo, you might be able to get a whole round of Division 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 in a week earlier than some of the teams that were waiting on the convo. Does that am I saying that right?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah, I can see your point. There could be something to that. Again, I wasn't involved in the scheduling, but yeah, I see where you're coming from. You could you could potentially you could potentially, I guess, you know, play games at high school facilities a week earlier or a few days earlier.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Um I guess the better way to ask that is do you do you feel like the convo, the venue is important enough to let it dictate the schedule the way it does in the round as early as what we would we would consider the district semifinal.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah, I do. I do. I think it's I just think it's it's such a cool experience for kids to play there. And I think the folks that run that tournament down there do a great job with it. Um they they they really do. Um I just think again, every district has strengths and weaknesses. All right. I mean, let's just be honest. It's like anything other organization. Nobody's perfect. I just said one of the things I think we do wrong is not letting coaches place themselves on the on the on the bracket, right? But one of the things we do right is the convo. Um and and I just I I think that I think it's worth a little bit of scheduling headache to have that venue. Now, if I was a baseball coach and and you asked me, hey, would you like things to move on? But I d but but then then again, um that would that would affect some teams, I suppose, but the teams that went deeper in the tournament, that would be affected by the OHSA scheduling anyway. But but that but yeah, but the vast majority of teams who don't make it out of the districts, that would probably help spring sports a little bit, right? I mean, I'll I'll give you that. Um so again, I'm looking at things probably through a basketball bias here a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, and I, you know, look, it this will get closer and closer to final thoughts, and and and we can take as much time as you need, but I guess in terms of the way I'm going down my notes, I I I kind of go back to the whole semantics of things. You know, the way the way things are rolled out and the way that we learn about them and the way we sell them to our people is really, really important. Yeah, I I made the comment earlier. I joke with a friend that that coaches track. Trac kind of benefits from a language standpoint in terms of they don't have a sectional, right? They st everyone starts in the district, and if you're, gosh, what is a top four or whatever, you go to the regional. Is that right? If you're in top four in your in your event, am I saying that right in the final?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

I believe that's the case, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

So, like, you know, I always call it the hallway test, right? So you pass the the track coach to the hallway. Hey coach, how how's tracks? Hey, we got a regional qualifier, right? Well, that sounds incredible, right? That that person's forever a regional qualifier. That sounds really good to people. Where we've had some people in our district, they're like the second individual in the entire district in golf and didn't go to the state. You know what I'm saying? Like, but that's an amazing thing. But because of the language to the average fan, you see where I'm going from there? Like when you hear regional qualifier in most sports, you're thinking sweet 16. You're thinking this, this, or this. And there's a difference there. And and and my point is, is a lot of times in terms of how how we how we explain things and how we put things out there, it goes a long way in this because I think people who are really bothered by it, I don't know if they're bothered by it as much as they really think they are, as much as I don't know that they totally understand the dynamic of it. I don't think they they understand what it's accomplished in terms of all seven divisions. I think they've just looked at it the way it was in their division three or their division two for 25 years, 30 years, and then all of a sudden it's different now, and I think they're having trouble just uh unpacking it a little bit. So I think I think a uh I go back to that language situation in terms of just being able to better understand and better explain it, goes into a lot of the formats because and the reason I say that is in leadership, if you don't take the time to truly understand the dynamics of it, I don't know if you even realize what it is you're arguing. You you know it's different, and you know you don't like it, or you know you kind of do like it, but when you sit down to try to make leadership decisions, if you don't understand the dynamics of it, you're you're really just talking in circles. Does that make sense? Like I see so many people in leadership every day, they're mad, and then I'll step back and be like, What are they mad at? I don't even know they know. You see what I'm saying? And it can really lead to a lot of bitterness and frustration.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Well, that's what I was saying earlier. If if you if you've got an argument against like what we've talked about tonight, then then have an argument, okay? But but the argument should, I think, be a little bit stronger than, well, that's just not the way it's been. I mean, because we all get a little stuck in nostalgia, right? What we lot I remember I remember when the NCAA tournament first expanded to 68, I would get my bracket and I'd be like, this messes up my bracket. Like I like I want 64. I got I got these two teams here, I got to wait to see who wins this game, right? Well, now there's did you see Shane where it came out that they're talking about expanding the NCAA to 76, I think, teams or something like that? And I I saw a couple posts today on social media like, oh, you like the apocalypse, right? Like the world's coming to an end if if we do this. And and look, I'm not sure if I like it or not, um, but I want to I want to give it some more thought because because like again, sometimes change can can be a negative thing if it's just change for the sake of change. But at the same time, just to automatically think, well, that's stupid. I wouldn't do that without giving it a little more thought. Because like, like, hey, let's let's talk real quick here, Shane, before I go to final thoughts, because I I I just brought up college. Let's talk college just for a second, because I think it's just an example of this. Before I give you my thoughts, what are your thoughts on two things here? The the possibility of basketball expanding to 76 teams instead of 64, all right? And and because from what I'm reading, now you never know, right, if it what you're reading on social media, but from what I'm seeing, it's like all but a done deal. I mean, it's going to happen, but we'll see. And then and then let's take football, because football, right, uh two years so far, if if I'm right, I think we've had two years of the expanded college football playoff. Um, so that's that, you know, for years we well, for years it was you know the number one team in the country or whatever, but like it then it went to four teams, now it's expanded on. What are your thoughts on those two those two situations? Uh the possible expansion of basketball at college level and the already having uh the football already having expanded.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Well, I've I have two I have two concepts I want to kind of answer with there. Number one, I think it's awesome that you brought up college because when we talk about high school expanding divisions, that college is the perfect example of of something in need of that. You know what I mean? Like to say to say division one national champion is a little bit misleading in terms of like when I watch a Miami, Ohio win every game they play, and we've got respected basketball analysts saying they may not make the tournament if they don't win their conference tournament. Yeah. What? Like, you know what I mean? Like that that blows my mind a little bit. But but the concept of saying that all Division I schools are getting an opportunity to do this, this, or this, yeah, they have their conference tournament or whatever. But I would argue that college is in desperate need in today's NIL transfer portal, money, all this different stuff, desperate need of divisions. You know what I mean? In terms of, you know, you have Division I Power Conference or Power Division, whatever it is, it needs to have more of an NBA NFL model, in my opinion. And then you could get into like your, you know, double A, you know, your your 3A, whatever you want to do all the way down. But to act like in college football and college basketball, that enrollment doesn't matter, that all those schools have an opportunity, eh? Kinda. Yeah, I don't know if they have the same opportunity. So that that's one that's one dynamic I would go. The other one I would relate back to our our first show of season eight last week is I don't know how much I love the idea of if it's continuing to expand, but if I'm being fair to what we talked about last week, man, we agreed that urgency makes it fun. We we agreed that March Madness makes college basketball take center stage for what three weeks, far more than it did the previous three months. You know what I mean? Like, you know, if you're an Ohio State fan, you probably don't even care about the basketball team until mid-January when the football team's done, right? Unless you're a true basketball nut or whatever. But my point is, is like, if I'm being open-minded to it, what would it hurt to have another week of March madness? What would you hurt to have another round of of whatever? I still think at the end of the day, there's upsets early, but I still think the best teams, like if I look back when I filled out my bracket to start the year, I certainly aren't fans of Michigan and I'm not fans of Arizona, but I thought I always fill out my back bracket backwards. I thought those were the two best teams. They just happen to be on the same side of the bracket, so I struggled a little bit more with the other side of the bracket. But like, I thought those are the two best teams. Like, that's who got there. You see what I'm saying? Like, at the end of the day, if you're the best team, you're gonna get there. Like, you're gonna win your game. You're gonna beat the team on the bracket and move to the next. So I'll be honest, I'd be open-minded to anything, because I love the sport of basketball. Like, I'd be I'd be open-minded to anything that brings more urgency and more eyeballs to to the product.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Yeah, you know, with basketball, Shane, you brought up Miami, Ohio. I think that's a I mean, that's kind of a great case study for this, right? Like they win all their games, yet they're on the verge of not making the tournament. Why? Because, well, their strengths of schedule is not good enough. Well, why is that? Well, nobody will play them because you know the top teams don't want to play Miami, Ohio in a regular season and get beat. So, you know, you run into some of that, right? But like, like, I just think that you said it yourself with the trans report of the NIL, the the landscape of college basketball, um, you almost have to expand, especially, and I don't know what your thoughts are on this. I think if you if you aren't going to expand it, you should get rid of conference tournaments. And now that's not going to happen because of of dollars and cents, but but let me explain what I mean by that. When you keep the conference tournament, you put the mid major who's had a great season at risk. Because now, like you said, Miami of Ohio, they win all their games, but yet they get knocked off in their tournament. Well, you and I both know, because we've both been through this. Um, well, I mean, I should shouldn't put words in your mouth, obviously. But but I guess my opinion is it's a lot more difficult to win a league over the course of weeks and months and to have that consistency than it is to win a tournament. If you took the SVC basketball, the eight teams, whoever finished fourth or fifth place, there's a reason they finished fourth or fifth place, right, over the course of 14 league games. But on most years, whoever finished fourth or fifth, couldn't they win a tournament? Couldn't they win a three-game tournament? Um, because all you got to do is get hot over the course of one weekend. So my point is, I guess, if you're not going to expand, keep the, you know, the if you're not going to expand, get rid of the conference tournaments. If you're going to keep the conference tournaments, expand. You understand what I'm saying with that?

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Yeah, I I totally do. I totally agree with what you said about the the regular season grind of over a 14 game compared to one weekend. I think what happens with the conference tournament is that's basketball's version of saying they give every like, remember the year Butler made the back-to-back, you know, that that that's their way of saying everybody has a chance. Yeah, at the end of the year, everybody has a chance to get into the tournament and then move through the bracket to to to to play for a national title. And is that is that technically right? Yeah, probably. Where I what I would argue is that like in football, I see some of these smaller schools go, and when I say smaller schools, I even go back just a handful of years ago when like Cincinnati did it.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

And people were like, Oh, they don't belong or whatnot. And they, you know, if that's true, then then college football, because college football's the whole reason we're having this discussion, money got so far out of hand that college football just absolutely derailed conferences and college and college sports, right? I mean, that's why we have big schools that you know clear across country now and so forth. But like that that's that's what's happened. So to me, when I say the NFL model, I just think you have way too many schools that are classified as quote unquote division one NCAA members. And I think I think they're in desperate need of realignment. So when we go back to we want to talk about um the the enrollment and things like that in high school, I think the college is the case study that's that's incredible to look at for this. Uh for for let me ask you this too. Like if if you're in leadership, don't you think it has to start from inside your house every day all the way to the top? Because sometimes it's not like let me go back to the high school model for a second. It's not the fault of the OHSAA and it's not the fault of the Southeast District if your athletic program is in a terrible everyday setting. Like if you're in a terrible league, if you're playing a terrible schedule or an unfair schedule, that's not the OHSA's fault. Oh HSA's fault. That's not the Southeast District fault. That's a you problem. Does that make sense? Like, right? Why are you in that league?

unknown 47:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Get in another league, be independent. Take a look at your schedule better. Don't play that volleyball schedule, don't play that baseball schedule, don't play those three non-conference football games. You see what I'm saying? Like, yeah, I I think sometimes I I I guess maybe maybe this opens up a final thought because I know a lot of times we we give this at the end, but like to me, people are mad, but then when I ask them what they're mad at, I don't even know that they know. You see what I'm saying? Like I see a lot of I see a lot of schools that I work that I that I I know people really well and I'll talk to them and they'll be really mad at the state. They'll be really mad at the Southeast District. But when you really break it down closer, I think what they're really mad at is the way their their school goes about doing it. Does that make sense? Like in well, I mean that that's I guess that's leadership in anything. I'm trying to use the sports example that that's on the show topic this week.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Yeah, because I think sometimes, let's just call it what it is, it it's it's when when things aren't going well, we want somebody to blame. I mean, I think that's human nature sometimes, and and and it's it's easier to do that, right? I mean, think about the society we live in. Like it's everything that happens has to be somebody's fault. You know what I mean? So it's like and and I think uh it's a little bit of what you're saying about just maybe some self-reflection sometimes and just saying, okay, is there something we can do within our own organization to help it? You know, it's like it's almost like if you're using an athletics, you know, I guess examples would be yes, we're in a league that's tough, right? Like we're we're uh we're one of the smaller schools in a league, or we're we're not as affluent as somebody. You know, you you know, you got, I mean, I can remember, I think it was uh a good friend of mine graduated from Bishop Fenwick High School, and I don't think it's this way now, but there was a time, and uh I'm not an expert, I think it was the Greater Catholic League, but there's different divisions in it, I think. But like there was a time where Bishop Fenwick was was really small for the league they were in from an enrollment standpoint, and it was really, really difficult for them. Then they they would get to the tournament and they would all of a sudden kind of thrive a little bit, right? Because they're playing schools their size. But I know talking to people who are in those situations like that, I think the schools that handle it the best are the ones that understand the difficulty of it, but they also say control the controllables, right? We always talk about that as a leader. And so what can we control? Well, we can control hiring the very best coaches we can get our hands on. We can try to retain those coaches, we can make sure we run good programs, um, you know, and and will that be enough? Maybe not. Maybe maybe it's not enough to win your league. If you're if you do that at the University of Akron, is that enough to win a national championship? I probably not, you know what I mean? But is it enough to where I think they just three peated um like in the Mac, winning the Mac? Um, you know, so so it's it's again kind of handling your own business like you're talking about, um, and then instead of instead of just being upset about the situation, I guess trying to go to work and better the situation. So yeah, I mean I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Yeah, I think I think the the the bottom line is change is hard. Yeah, change is hard. And sometimes change is good, sometimes change is bad. Sometimes it's okay to change and then change back. I think people miss miss the boat on that sometimes. Like, you know, right now, um our favorite baseball team, Cincinnati Reds, they have so much depth that they have a lot of pretty good. Okay, and guys are gonna get hot and cold over the course of 162 games, and they certainly do have more options in their organization than they have in recent years. They they they really do, they have better talent. But you know, they'll they'll always say, like, man, you you hate to you hate to bring a kid up and then have to send him back down. Well it it's it's okay sometimes to try something, then okay, wait a minute, maybe I was too quick, go back, work on this, and then bring him back again. You see what I'm saying? Sometimes it's okay in leadership to if you know something's not quite working as well and you know there needs to be a change, I think it's okay sometimes to to try it, realize, well, wait a minute, that didn't go very well. I think we're on to something here. And I guess that's what's happening with these divisions. Maybe you don't love it, maybe you don't hate it, maybe you're in the middle somewhere, but I think year in, year out we have to learn from it. I I definitely think we needed something different, and that that's where we're at. Like take take our area, for example. In the last 30 years here in Southeast Ohio, so like out in our southeast district, for a lot of people that are listening to this all over our district, think of how the geography's changed, how our roadways have changed. Like when you think of the the uh Southern Ohio veterans uh Memorial Highway, I think it I think the number's 823, don't quote me on that, down there that cuts you over from like that Lucasville area all the way over um down to 52 and so forth around the Portsmouth area. And then think about the 207 connector around the Chillicothe area over the last 20 years, and think about how 104's changed, 23's changed, 3550, 32. So many of these used to be two-lane, now four-lane. You can go places quicker, right? And what's happened is it's completely changed the dynamic of school districts. School district enrollments have gone up, they've gone down, there's been a lot of movement, there's been a lot of uh uh, you know, just you know, enrollment. So, like what what schools used to be 20 years from now, they may not be now. They may be way bigger, they may be a lot smaller. New schools might have been built closer to a bigger town, a little further away. Whatever the case is you can't just get stuck on things just because it's always been that way. And I guess the reason I bring all that up, Matt, is this is I think sometimes I think at the end of the day, people don't want to try new things just because they're afraid of the change. Does that make sense? Like, like, why do we well? This is actually a line I think you've used before on expanding the zone. Well, why do we do it that way? Well, we we've always done it that way. And I think that you and I have always agreed on here from a leadership standpoint, you have to really, really guard against that. Talk to us about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yeah, I I one of the things you know I think is important is to always ask your staff, like in my case, if I'm a coach, my coaching staff, or whatever, but say you're a principal or a superintendent and your administrative staff, whatever, is is constantly question how we do things, like all the time. Um, what can we do better? Why do we do it? Why do we do it this way? Well, that's just kind of the way we've always done it. Well, that's a dangerous answer, right? Why do we do it this way? Well, we truly think this is the best way to do it. Here's why. We've looked at this, this, this, this, this is the best way to do it. Because I think there's there's two reasons. You just said, Shane, um, really in a roundabout way, that that people are afraid of change. It's it's it's because change is just difficult in general, and we kind of get stuck with the way we've always done it. And then there's that piece you mentioned earlier, you may make the wrong choice and quote unquote fail and have to move backwards. Right? It's like, it's like, why do the Reds not bring Reese Heinz up to play out well? We may have to send him back down, right? You just said like that example with a baseball player. Um, so there's there has to be some vulnerability there to be able to say, hey, we're gonna go for this, even if it ends up not being the right thing and we have to tweak it a little bit. Um we said earlier in the show, the OHSA went to these seven divisions. It may take time to fine-tune everything that goes along with that. Um right now we have a pretty small sample size of that. But but I but I think it's dangerous just to, oh, well, that's not the way we've always done it, or well, I I don't think I like this. Let's just immediately, you know, you have to really give it some time, look at it, kind of study it. Um but yeah, it's it's an interesting concept, you know. The the the the whole idea of change and why why we do, why we don't, the timing of change, all those things, it's it's made for an interesting show topic for sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

It has. And and as we as we got into what I thought was going to be final thoughts, I I'll be honest, a couple new things kind of jumped to the forefront there and it kind of extended, which I think's fine. I guess if I was going to try to sum it back up and then I'll give you the final word, I just go back to the point of the longer you're in leadership, you benefit from experience. But if you're not careful, you can get handcuffed by being tied to tradition and value and different things, and it can kind of hold you back from um maybe maybe evaluating things with an open mind and seeing where you're at in the present day. And with that, with that thought in mind, I would challenge a lot of schools and I would challenge a lot of people to make sure you know what you're mad at. Like when you see different change, are you mad at the state? Are you mad at the district? Are you mad at kind of the state of your own culture and your own school? And I think I think if you have a moment of honesty, I think that can start to at least give you more of a clear picture in making decisions. So Matt, I'll give you the final word there.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

Yeah, you know, Shane, we've made the comment before that the the the one of the best abilities an athlete can have is availability, right? The availability to go out there and actually play every day. Well, I think one of the best abilities a leader can have sometimes is adaptability. Um I think that I think that we have to, as leaders, be willing to adapt. And I think whenever you say that, some some really old school thinkers think that you are that you are sacrificing your core values or your core beliefs. And that's not what I'm talking about. I think there's always some non-negotiables there for all of us, some things that some hills we're willing to willing to die on, right? That these are the things we believe in. I'm not saying that you forego those, but I'm saying beyond those, I think a leader has to be open-minded, has to be willing to evolve and adapt a little bit, to even have the longevity to enact change, because we just said a lot of times change takes time because you make a change and you tweak it here and you tweak it there and eventually get it to where you want to get it. Well, that takes time. And if you're gonna have longevity as a leader to even be around to see that through, you're gonna have to have some flexibility and be willing to adapt and open-minded about it. So I think really as we got into this tonight, I'll be honest with you that's not even where my mind went at first. But as we've talked, as we've talked about this, I think that's kind of where I end up on it.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Yeah, well, again, this is episode 79, our second show here in season eight of expanding the zone. And and we can't thank you enough for uh coming along on the ride with us. Uh, if you're here on the YouTube channel, make sure you you're subscribed to us. Uh uh give us some give us a good thumbs up there, some good ratings, kind of good word of mouth out there to help people uh bring them our way. Uh Matt and I try to get together, we try to take relevant uh topics, and then as Matt just said in his final thought there, a lot of times we uh we'll we'll get going two or three different directions, but honestly, we just use it as professional development. We hope you get a little sports entertainment out of it, but we also hope you get some good leadership value out of it as well in terms of just uh uh food for thought and to be thinking about a little bit. So on that note, we'll uh we'll get on out of here and we'll we'll do it again uh next week. Believe it or not, Matt, we'll be moving on to episode 80 at that time, and uh we'll keep on keeping on. So for Matt Combs, I'm Shane Combs. We appreciate you watching Expanding Design.