Expanding the Zone
Expanding the Zone
Episode 80: Perception vs Reality
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Shayne and Matt discuss perception vs reality in leadership. Being authentic is always important but when do appearances matter?
Welcome back, everyone. Expanding the zone, Shane Combs alongside Matt Combs, and we are ready for episode 80, as we're here in our uh third show in season eight. And Matt, as we continue to roll along, uh uh it's it's been a pretty good start to the season. We've had some uh pretty good feedback on our first two shows. Uh show 79, we talked about the whole watered down discussion throughout the expansion of the seven divisions. Uh, thought we got some really fair feedback going both ways on that. Maybe that's something we'll follow up more and more as we get into future postseasons. Uh also had the show 78, the most wonderful time of year. And we talked about how you know March Madness and tournament and spring sports obviously are red legs off to a good start. That obviously makes this time of year more enjoyable, and you have to sit and watch that every night. You just assume them play well, and they have. Uh so you know, look, um we're we're kind of going a different direction here on show 80. I'm kind of uh been excited about this show as I as I started to chew on this topic throughout the day and in preparation for the show. We're talking perception versus reality. Why don't we just start there with the title and and talk to our viewers a little bit on what uh brought this uh topic to the forefront?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, Shane, I I don't know what direction this show will go exactly. I like you said, it's it's kind of one we've been excited about because there's some different topics I think we'll touch on tonight. I think ultimately what brought this on is just, you know, in sports especially today, but but also in leadership, you see situations where there's there's um something that appears to be right, but maybe isn't, you know, if it once you really dig in. Um and and I think we all value deep down authenticity. I think we all value uh what something really is rather than what it just appears to be. But if we're being honest with each other, there's times where appearances matter, you know, um whether you want to admit that or not. Um, you know, I used the example uh to somebody one time, like, there's a reason you don't go to a job interview and a hoodie and a hat, right? I mean, like you might be the best uh candidate there is, but there's just a certain expectation. And how you dress, does that really mean what type of employee you'll be? No, but it matters, right? It's one of those situations where appearances matter. So there are times that they matter, but but it's at the same time, we really value authenticity and and reality, like what something really is. So I think as we get into this tonight, we're gonna talk about some of those things and how we balance those.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think the appearance is is a is a unique thing in terms of how you you look. I I think when you you know when you first get into leadership, uh if you're a young coach, uh you're maybe a young administrator or whatever, you have a tendency to have um, I don't know, kind of a uh uh a cookie cutter or a or a buy the book type of thing that you'd like to do in terms of, you know, I'd like to see uh this type of structure, I'd like to see this type of uh you know dress, I'd like to see this type of appearance, I'd love for us to be organized in this way. And sometimes I think you can get caught up in the in the what instead of the why. And and and I guess it it's that's a real fine line because I do think there's something to be said about the appearance and and the overall perception that people have of your group. Maybe it's your team, maybe it's it's it's a staff, whatever it may be. But at the same time, the the production that you end up having and and and the way you conduct yourself and execute whatever it is your task is, that's obviously the most important thing. But but do you do you see you see the trend sometimes with younger people in terms of uh fair or not, if you don't check some of these boxes up front, you're almost not even going to get a val be evaluated fairly on on what's to come. Am I saying that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so. I think sometimes, you know, as I think if I'm hearing you right, Shane, you're talking about somebody who's just starting out, right? In their career. And and you know, before you quote unquote prove yourself within whatever line of work or you're in or whatever team you're coaching, or whatever, um, yeah, I think there's uh some truth to that where um you know appearances do matter a little bit, you know. Um it's funny to me, like like take coaching, for instance. I'll give you an example. When when back when I started coaching 25 years ago in basketball, or well, about 30 if you count all the years as the assistant coach, too. But most coaches, I I I'd say most at the high school level basketball coaches wore a tie. Wore shirt and tie, right? That was kind of the thing they did. And I and I saw somebody comment the other day uh during the March Madness of why, you know, boy, it's nice to see Mick Cronin in a shirt and tie, or it's nice to see, I think he mentioned one other person, maybe Rick Patino or somebody, somebody who typically dresses that way at a game, um, versus what's more popular now is more of a some sort of pullover with your school logo on it. Um you know, it just over the years these things have evolved and changed. But my point is when I first started out, there was an expectation of a young teacher and a coach, wear a tie to school, you know, wear a tie when you coach, you know, and over the years that's just sort of changed. And it's and it's not just as I've gotten older, I've decided not to do some of that. I think society has changed. Would you agree? Like, you know, it what like if you hire some schools, if they hire a first-year teacher now, there's not an expectation to wear a tie. Not all school administrators wear ties. Um, it's just kind of the way it is, just to use that as an example. So, you know, one of the things I've always I've always thought, Shane, that that goes with this is wherever you work, wherever you coach, wherever you are, don't you have to sort of know your audience? Don't you have to sort of know the community you're in and and or or the the the corporation you work at, the school you teach at? Don't you have to kind of know the expectation going in?
SPEAKER_01I think you do. And I think as you as you break down, I I I want to stay on that title for a second, because I think those two words are really, really important, the perception and reality. I think the reality of what you're saying is spot on. I think ultimately on on how you're going to go about it, certainly has to be exactly what you described. But I I do want to still talk about a little bit of that perception. Do you think it's fair in terms of sometimes if you're not, for lack of better phrasing, proven, right? You're you're not a proven leader, you know, a young coach, whatever. Because it like if an experienced coach or a successful coach comes out and does, you know, whatever within reason, they'll be like, oh, they're so-and-so, you know, they've got them ready to play, you know. I mean, where where as if the if the younger coach comes out, not very structured group there. They don't even look like they're together, they don't look like they're they they just don't look the right way. So and so would have had them dressed the right way. You know what I mean? Right. So it's it's you you see that perception I'm talking about, sometimes as a as a leader, some of that perception that you put out there really blocks some of the reality from even getting started.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it does. I think that's what that's why I say sometimes, you know, there's times and we said when we led into the show that appearances do matter, you know, you know, it's just like if you're a player, if you're a player and you you're you might be the greatest kid there is, you may be the greatest teammate there is, have a great attitude in the locker room, right? But if you have certain body language on the court, or you say or do certain things in certain situations that shine a bad light on you, the vast majority of people in that gym that night, they're not watching you at practice every day, right? They're not watching you in the locker room. So their their perception of you is what they see out there. And it may not even be the reality all the time, but it's what people see. So it is an example, Shane, I think, of of where the that perception matters.
SPEAKER_01I think for me, Matt, too, one of the first things in my notes is I think there's a big difference between adapting and adjusting and doing some of those things compared to just hitting the complete quit button and and letting it go to an extreme. And I'm the first to admit, listen, 30 years into my coaching career, I've done it a long time, and you don't do it that long without adjusting some, but I'm the first to admit I hit a point in my career here at the end where there's a lot of things I had trouble completely going all in with. And it's probably how I knew it was time to step away and do some media work and some different things. And that's part of why I love this show that what you and I continue to do, because I'm really big on professional development. Got some professional development planned here in the upcoming weeks where I'm continuously trying to study leadership and figure out why. And let me let me give you some examples here. Take team shoes, for example. Right. When we played when we first started coaching, very common to have team shoes. It's it's harder and harder as we go through our career to have them. Maybe it's a money thing, maybe it's a you know, well, man, I bought these shoes for my travel team and I did this, this, and this, and I have that. So some coaches said, okay, here's a collar scheme I would like for you to do. Well, then before you know it, some people just said, Yeah, I'm not I'm not fighting that anymore. And before you know it, you have who knows what collar issue out there, right? Same way with same way with travel gear, or same way with, you know, we were gonna spend all this money and get some real nice travel gear. The team looks real nice the way they go. Some some dress up, some do what, whatever. But then there's sub that just got to the point of, yeah, I'm not even fighting that go. And it's who knows what they look like when they go and represent their school. You see what I'm saying? Like I could go all the way through. Dress code, staff. No, we don't necessarily wear a tie or do this, this, and it's anymore. But look, I'm the first to admit there's some professionals that take that to the extreme, and you know, it's who knows what we're wearing to work anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm even calling out some of our adults here. So I guess, I guess for me, the problem is sometimes when we lose sight of a standard and we try to have a little bit of I don't know, personality. If we we try to give a little bit of of uh you know people being authentic and doing and being who they are, sometimes it's taken to the extreme and and it can't it can be a problem. I I want to be clear about that. It can be a problem when we don't have a little bit of a standard that needs to be set and that we um try to live up to. Is that fair?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it is. I I think though, I think as a let's just take coaching for a second. I think as a coach, you have to I think you have to ask yourself. Uh you mentioned the word standard. I think you have to ask yourself what that standard is for you. You know, like what you know, what the what the bottom line is, or maybe what the what line won't you cross might be a better way to say that. So like if you're a coach who who believes in some level of uniformity in terms of how your team dresses, does that mean they have to wear a tie to school that day? Or, well, that's a little uncomfortable, right? And kids don't really want to do that. So let's meet in the middle and like you said, we'll buy a jumpsuit, we'll buy like a travel gear to where we're all dressed the same, at least. Um, just so you're not showing up like, like you said, one kid showing up in a pair of you know ripped jeans and a t-shirt, another kid, you know, have a little bit of uniformity. Um, same way with the team shoes. I think some coaches believe in that. I got away from team shoes simply because I once had a player, I think I've told the story that uh we we made it to the regionals and and he had these terrible blisters because the shoes that we all wore as a team, they didn't fit his feet right. He's trying to be a good teammate. He never told me throughout the year, hey, these shoes are bothering me. You know, instead he just tries to power through. Next thing you know, we're in the regionals, he's got blisters all over his feet. Um, and I kind of got to a point where I was like, you know what, when it comes to basketball shoes, maybe we ought to allow kids to get what fits them best and what's comfortable or whatever. And I realize, you know, you may get some different collar shoes nowadays, right? It I mean, you know, I enjoy watching Ellie Dela Cruz play baseball. You know, he had most of what he wears, he had a belt on the night with flames on it. He had, you know, pink and turquoise, I guess, like padding and right. I mean, he's fun to watch. I enjoy watching him. Not everything he wears is the red's collars. But again, and you know, speaking of the red shade, do you remember back in the day where they all had to have black cleats, remember? Oh, yeah, and their stirrups. Like there's a word for you. Let's let's let's see if any baseball kid today even knows what a stirrup is.
SPEAKER_00Is that is there a worse adventure than the socks where they put the fake stirrup, and then they didn't even take them all the way down to the shoe. So down by the ankle, you had the gap. They didn't even take them all the way down.
SPEAKER_02We first of all, when you think about it, okay, just just for fun here, let's talk about it. When you think about the stirrup, I mean, I mean, is what what purpose did that serve? Like what, like, you know, I can remember though, as a kid, like putting on the stirrup and literally goes like, heck yeah, man. You know what I mean? Like it made you feel like a baseball player. But like when you really think about it, what a what a terrible piece of uniform. Like what, like maybe somebody listening to this show can tell me what the what the purpose of the stirrup was. But then, like you said, instead of just getting rid of it, we put a fake stirrup. Like, you know, we just paint it on the side of the sock there for a while. And then the baseball pants got along. But you know, we we we laugh, we laugh, but it's like, you know, i it's kind of the evolution of things, right? Like like it the Reds used to have rules about their way the, you know, they used to have facial hair rules. Remember how many coaches used to have haircut rules and facial hair rules? And I think very few coaches probably have that anymore. I think it's just, you know, that that that times have changed, the evolution of things. Again, Shane, I'll go back. I think some of it is driven by community expectations and society expectations. I can remember when I took uh when I was getting my my administrative license, I had a great professor, his name was Arlie Woodrum, remember his name, and he was I believe he was from somewhere in the UK originally. And but I asked him one night, I said, hey, where I was teaching at the time down at Silaville East, and we would have football games down along the river there, down around Slater County. There were some schools that prayed over the loudspeaker before the game. They would do the national anthem and then they would say a prayer. The PA guy would. And I asked one time, which I was, I mean, I loved it. I was glad. But I mean, you know, I I consider myself a person of faith, so I'm perfectly fine with that. But I asked him, I said, how does that fly? Because, you know, like, you know, when you're in schools, we talk, you know, sometimes you have to separate church and yeah. And he said, there's the law and there's the community law. That's what he said. He goes, if you're gonna become an administrator, you need to remember that. There's the law and there's a community law. This is the law. But in some communities, they don't care what this says. This is the community law. And they're gonna do it their way. So I say that all of that to say this. When it comes to these things we're talking about tonight, whether it be the way players dress to a game, whether it be coaches' rules and standards, some of that is driven by what the community wants.
SPEAKER_01I I love that you use that that concept there, because I think you're spot on in terms of what has what has dictated a lot of this stuff is kind of the people you lead, the families you leave, the communities you leave, in terms of of what type of culture and what would be supported, what would not be supported, um, and those those types of things. I think that's well said. Let let's let's move that in. Since you brought up community, I want to move down here to another part of the agenda where we're talking about how we talk publicly. You know, I mean, obviously, we address our our team every day, right? So, like if you're a teacher, you address your students, if you're a coach, you address your team each day. Depending on what type of leadership role you have, there's times where you have to address the community. Maybe, maybe as a principal or as an administration, you address the community. And coaching, obviously, um, the way media has grown. I know I've been lucky enough to to be on some teams of media, uh, currently working for SOSA now and doing a lot of things, and they're all over the place and doing a lot of public type of communication and so forth. So you you you obviously have a voice in the public in terms of representing your team. There's a there's a lot of things here in the news lately, in terms of press conferences through March Madness, NBA playoffs getting ready to start. Uh I know I know there's a couple uh blow-ups on the on the women's basketball side that we can talk about. Um, but but let's get a general comment in terms of what what do you think what do you think is important to remember in terms of again being true to yourself and being true to who you want to be as a leader while still representing the forum and and understanding who you're talking to and who and and who or what you're talking about? What what what's a comment there that you have in terms of of handling the the media or the social media or just the social platform in terms of communication?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I think I I think when you're a leader and you're and you're doing those things, I think that the the thing you have to remember ultimately is when you're talking, let's say, to the media, let's say as a coach, you're you're really a couple things, but but first I'd say this, you're really representing or you're setting an example of how you would want your players to talk to the media too, right? So if you as a coach, kind of like you had mentioned some stuff that had happened, I think it was the Tennessee women's coach that had got kind of got on um and said, her team quit tonight, they quit, you know, that type of thing. And some people took offense to that because they felt like she was blaming or pointing the finger right at her players. So if if if as a coach you do that, then you have to ask yourself, would you be okay with one of your players getting on there and pointing the finger at each other, right? And probably the answer to that's probably no. So I've always been a big believer in when you're out there in front of, like you said, you're representing an organization of any kind in the media. I I don't think you ever publicly throw any of your people under the bus. I think that's the type of thing is dealt with behind closed doors. But I think ultimately, whatever you believe, okay, however you believe you should handle those situations, don't you think you're setting an example for how other people within your organization is going to handle those situations too? Does that does that kind of make sense? You know, like like like I think that, you know, if as a coach you're gonna point the finger, then your players may point the finger, right? And and I uh if you're somebody that believes in brutal honesty, and that's fine if you do, how far do you take that brutal honesty publicly, though, if it means kind of kind of putting somebody else in a tough spot or kind of throwing somebody else under the bus?
SPEAKER_01But there's a couple layers to what you said there that I want to unpack. You know, number one, maybe this is the ELA background that I've had in terms of teaching that subject area for 20 years, but I think pronouns are really powerful here. You know what I mean? Like when you when you start saying your team quit, like when you say they quit, well, you're the leader. You see what I'm saying? Like I think you've you've you've you've got to recognize what's the one famous quote that says, you know, if you're leading, turn around and see if anyone's following. You know what I mean? Like it's one of those things where I I'm I don't I don't mind every now and then holding someone accountable and you want, but I think it has to be in terms of I I I would have rather said I felt like we quit tonight, and that starts with me. I gotta be better, we've gotta be better. You see what I'm saying? Like I think that can be more powerful. The other thing I would say is this I think sometimes when you have great consistency, I think you can you sometimes can can use the other extreme in a powerful way. Like, like let me give you an example. Sometimes we've had I've had the most quiet, consistent leaders, and when those particular p people every now and then had a blow up moment, boy, did it catch my attention. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we even made so and so mad. On the other hand, I've played for a lot of stream. And a lot of intense guy guys and so forth. And when they get to the most calm point and really address you, it grabs your attention. You see what I'm saying? I think there's power in your delivery as a leader. Yes, you want to be authentic to who you are, but sometimes I think you have to be very purposeful in your delivery. You know what I mean? Like when you're communicating, look, people are listening. People are going to have opinion. People are think about what we're doing here. We're dissecting, what do we have to do with Tennessee women's basketball, South Carolina women's basketball? Remember, South Carolina's coach comes back and is saying, I don't know if I would have done it that way. Now, obviously, she's far more accomplished and she has the right to say whatever she wants. But again, even when she said that, my first reaction was like, I don't know if I'd have an opinion on how Tennessee coaches addressed her team. You see what I'm saying? What's it your business how someone else addresses their team? Right. Right. And I think all of those things are true. Um, I I think sometimes coaches, I think sometimes coaches recognize they're they're they're wrong. And then what happens is like, take Gino in terms of the final four there in the comments sent since we're on women's basketball, probably wasn't his finest moment. And then he comes back, some people felt like the the apology for him for for for that guy to be such an ambassador of women's college basketball. Some people thought even the the apology was a little bit fake. You know, I mean, if we're talking about perception and reality, there's so many different layers to how you communicate and how you talk to people in person, how you talk to people through the media. Um, and I just think if you're in leadership, this is only going to grow. Was it as important of a skill 15, 20 years ago? I don't know, but I can promise you, if you're just getting started now in leadership, you're going to be in some sort of public forum for many years to come. And it better be a skill that you develop, because I'm finding even someone who's been in this as long as I am, that I have to to to master this and pay more and more attention to that public perception each and every day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't think there's any question. And you mentioned just uh just i I wasn't even thinking along this line, but you mentioned apology. And does does it amaze you sometimes, Shane, like kind of like sort of the almost the pre-written or like laid out apology? Like, like, like, don't you feel sometimes like like people like it would just be a lot more genuine if somebody would just come on and and not read it off a paper and say, hey, you know, I I I you know, look, I made a bad decision, I shouldn't have done that, uh, sorry about that, you know, whatever, whatever. Sometimes, you know, these apologies, they're so like so so-and-so issued a statement, right? And and and you know, and then you read this statement, and it's like, but no, I think that you just said something right there at the end, learning how this is a skill. Like, like some of this stuff, like talking to the media and things like that, it's a skill. I can remember when I was a player and my coach would say to me, Hey, you know, back then, you know, the media consisted of you know, newspaper radio. There wasn't much beyond that, right? But like somebody would say, Hey, can we have Matt come out and do a radio when I was a player? And I can remember Coach Lovely saying, Hey, hey, remember, you know, a lot of credit to your teammates, you know, or if we lost, they normally didn't interview you after a loss, right? But if you lost, don't blame the officials, don't blame anybody. You know, he would almost like coach you on how to talk to the media. And it was and it was beneficial, you know. And that's why, like in today's day and age, your players are out in front of the media.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say you better definitely coach your players on it now.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah. I mean, you whether you, you know, in our area, whether you have whatever, whatever, um out whatever outfit is doing the game, whether it's Southern High Sports Authority or Total Media or any of these different places, right? And and and or just if it's still your normal radio stations or whatever, you're you're constantly all you gotta do is get on Facebook and there's two kids getting interviewed after a game, right? And every game. So I think as a coach, I don't know, honestly, I don't think we spend enough time on this with our players, probably. And I've been fortunate just to have some really good kids that I trusted to talk, but like the more I think about it, you probably as a coach ought to talk about it every now and then, right? I mean, because all it takes is one person saying something a little bit questionable, you know. Uh not even not even like cussing or I'm saying like some kind of bulletin board material, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I saw an example of it earlier this spring where someone was excited after a win, and high school kids got, you know, and they they said some pretty arrogant things and and said probably not the most respectful things about an upcoming opponent, and I know for a fact it was used by the opponent as a as a you know, like a little bit of a motivational thing. So no, I think well again, we're talking about high school kids, and I think it's just like any other skill that you're trying to get from being a part of sports and being a part of some of these things, and in the day and age we live in, that's that's certainly certainly a factor. Let me did do you have anything else on that? I want I wanted to kind of carry that into another point there.
SPEAKER_02No, no, I really didn't have anything on that. Uh I you mentioned you almost mentioned somebody being a little excited after a win, and it kind of got me thinking a little bit of like that whole argument cocky versus confident a little bit, you know what I mean? But like we don't have to go in that direction if you don't want, but but but like you know, you see things you as you watch professional sports, and let's face it, uh guys hit home runs now. There's a little more of a celebration than there used to be. Um, there's a little more of standing in the box.
SPEAKER_01I mean, don't you think it's slowly but surely almost being accepted more and more? It just for the longest time it used to be those unwritten rules. I think we did that one time.
SPEAKER_02Like, I think, yeah, that's what I mean. Like you'll see a guy hit a home run. Now, now, when we were growing up, let's face it, you know, Barry Bond stood there and admired it sometimes or whatever. You had a little bit of that. But like coming around the bases, everybody has their own little dance they do with the third base coach and all these different things. Like back in the day, man, some of this stuff, I think you would have worn one later in the game. Someone's putting one in your back. And now, now, well, I mean, I'm not saying it's not better. I mean, uh, better or worse, now it's just you're right. A lot more is accepted. I think a lot more is accepted professionally. I think a lot more is accepted all the way down through. People don't get bit out of shape about some of that stuff. Um, and you know, where is that line, Shane? Where's that cocky confident line? Like if it, you know, guys hit three-point shots in basketball now, they're doing these, all these hand gestures and right or shooting the arrow, all kinds of different stuff. And and is that showing the other team up, or is that just celebrating your own stuff and your own team? You know, I I I talk a lot to our guys about, you know, celebrate each other, you know, especially it's great when you celebrate the success of one of your teammates, I think, just because uh that's what we're trying to get at, right? Being being happy for each other. But where does it cross the line to where you're sort of taunting the other team?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's a great point about the team, you know. I mean, like I for whatever reason, a lot of my mind goes to the to I really enjoyed the women's tournament this year. Uh UCLA had a phenomenal team, and and uh coach uh Corey Close, one one of my favorite uh quotes of the entire, and I I'll probably butcher it, but uh said something along the lines of our talent is our floor, but but went on to say something about the character or chemistry will determine our ceiling. And that's something I've always believed, and I love that quote, and and she just kept talking to her team about that uh all the way through the tournament. And you know, when when you talk about celebrating one another and teammates and confidence, I I think I think there's a lot of truth to that. You made a great point about how more is accepted, and as more and more is accepted, we probably move away from this one extreme and we probably move more to another extreme, which we talked about earlier, right? And where's the fine line? I don't know, but confidence. I think here we are in show 80 tonight. I think you'd have to go back a couple seasons, it's somewhere in the 60s, I think 67 maybe was the confidence show we did together. And you know, Matt, it's funny on the confidence versus cocky or or where you cross a line, because again, you want you want the person to be who they are, and you want them to have that real raw emotion. And and sometimes kids play really well in that in that way, right? They they they they that's who they are, and and sometimes if if they channel it correctly, it's the best version of themselves. I was joking the other day most people that listen to the show probably know this. I know Matt won't say it, so I will. Matt was a phenomenal high school basketball player, unbelievable. And what's funny about it is Matt, you're you're the most humble adult when it comes to your accomplishments in sports. You really are. I mean, for what you've accomplished in your adult career in coaching, you you are as humble as it comes. But I'm here to tell you the Matt Combs, the 17-year-old, didn't lack confidence, okay? Like, you know what I mean? Like it was it was one of those where um, you know, you you let's just say you're seeking your next shot, right? You're pretty sure it had a chance to go in. And and and you'll remember this growing up. Remember the one time when you were you you were trying to convince me and someone else in the basement that like you thought you could score Charles Barkley, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Like, and it it was kind of a joke or whatever, but what was funny about it is after a while I'd be like, I mean, I think he truly believes he might be able to score Charles Barkley. Yeah, like this. So, but it's I think I think I said he's only like six five and he's fat, you know. I mean, come on, man. Guys a Hall of Famer, man. And then you say, well, like what about like Steve Kerr? He's a like six one, six two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I mean, I I don't know.
SPEAKER_01You know, that there there was there there's that, there's there there is different personalities. Like, like you know, like if if I think I think even now there's still times we'll be on the golf course, and this is where you and I are different in our own ways in terms of the way we even go about leadership, I think sometimes. But like we'll be on the golf course, and you'll face a situation where you'll be like, I can almost see it in your eyes, like I think I can hit that shot.
SPEAKER_02Where I'm sitting there thinking those are the famous last words usually, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where I'm sitting there thinking, there's no way I can hit that shot. You see what I'm saying? Where and it's like I'm gonna I'm gonna try to this and this and this. More of a analytical type of you know, focus or whatever. So my my point is my point is there's a lot of different personalities that come together in these teams and different things. Is it is it hard? I mean, I I guess for me it is. That's why I'm asking you what what's the challenge of when you take so many different personalities and you try to blend them together. If you're coaching a team of 12, imagine a football team maybe trying to take four. Oh my gosh. Um, you know, but like I don't care what the sport is, like I know the communication that goes into playing volleyball, right? I I know the communication um that's involved in playing baseball. I know how much downtime there is in baseball, and how much the positive energy is important, and how negative energy can just suck the life out of a baseball team. Baseball seasons, even though they're only you know four, five, six you know, weeks long, they're they're they're long evenings, right? They're they're into the spring. It's the grind. We've had pretty good weather. I know, I know a couple baseball teams this week played like six times in like seven days. Like it's it's a grind. And there's a lot of dynamic, isn't there, Matt, to trying to take all of those personalities and get them to get what they want individually out of it while putting what we there's that pronoun again, what we need out of it or what want to accomplish together out of it. Talk about that challenge.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I I think it it's it's honestly a challenge with every single team, every single year you coach, because ultimately, you know, you have some new faces every time. And and you know, I I had I think there's two things to this. I think one it's it's I think one, there's the there's how you act, right, or how you behave, and then two is how you accept how others do. So like if you're on a team and this is this is my personality, okay, and and and I'm just trying to be real. I'm just trying to be who I am. Well, that's that's great, and you need to do that, but I think sometimes people use that as an excuse to just do whatever they want or say whatever they want and behave badly, you know, to for lack of a better way to say it. You know, I don't think being authentic or being yourself just is a free coupon to just go out and say and do whatever you want. There has to be some kind of you know limit. You you know, you are on a team and you're trying to, you're you're trying to fit into that. But then I also think how you receive it, I think it's it's it's just as important to learn to respect those differences from other people. Like understand, like, you know, like I can remember the team I played on in high school. You know, if if it was before a game, you might have one guy sitting in the corner, you know, just so relaxed, he almost falls asleep. You might have another guy in the shower bouncing balls off the wall. You might have another guy like, you know, Ra-Ron. Let's go, you know. And I think everybody kind of prepares to play differently or gets trained. And I think you have to respect those differences. And I think that's the biggest thing about being in those situations, Shane, on a team is uh think about your teaching staff or think about anything. You know, it's so easy to say, well, you know, that person, uh, you know, I don't know. Well, I mean, why not just respect that person's differences? Yeah, like they're different than you, but like that's who they are, right? And and they're trying to get a job done. This is who you are. Um, so I think it's I think there's a two-way street, if I'm if I'm I hope I'm making sense with this, where it's how you behave and how you act and how you're trying to be authentic and be the real you at the same time within limits, right, of trying to respect everybody else. And then also kind of respecting those differences or those ways that other people approach it too. I think ultimately it's that sort of marriage that makes a team.
SPEAKER_01Well, when I go back to Coach Close's uh comment after the national title win at UCLA, remember I was talking about how their talent is their floor and their chemistry and and and the way they come together will will dictate what their ceiling ends up being. Right. Don't you think that has to do with putting your quote unquote team together, whatever that might be, your staff, your players, whatever. I think sometimes we we we get caught in this thing of when I first when I first started coaching, my first job was at a school that was a lot bigger than the one I've ended up being at my entire career on. So like my first job I had to cut. And so many kids out, I had to do it in in like days. Like, here's a day one cut, a day two cut, and you tried to evaluate, you know, from a talent standpoint. And then as you got down to the next round of cuts, the talent started to get really even, and you're looking for different factors in terms of what separates, hey, I've got like these seven kids, I only have two spots left. What separates you know one from the other? And and it's kind of the same, isn't it, from an adult standpoint of a hiring process? Like if you're if you're in in charge of hiring or personnel or those types of things, don't you think there's a factor sometimes that when you when you go to put together a team and you respect those different factors, doesn't it have to go beyond just ability and talent? At the end of the day, you got to be good enough to do your job, right? I mean, I assume at the end of the day, if you're gonna put a kid out on a varsity basketball floor, you want him to be good enough to play and and be successful, right? But at the same time, there's probably different situations where you're looking at different kids or different types of even attitudes and personalities that you want. Is is that fair?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean, I think that uh it it's like you used to say, like one of your favorite quotes was from the movie Miracle when Herb Brooks said, you know, hey, I'm not just looking for the best players, I'm looking for the right players, right? Right, right. Um and and I think that I think there's a lot of truth to that when you're you know when you're part of a team, if you think about the best teams you've ever been a part of, they most likely have included sort of your star performers, right? You know, like your best players, your best teachers, your best whatever. But then there's also been other roles being played within that group or within that organization. Um, you know, um some of the best teams I've I've been a part of or I've I've coached or whatever, you know, had guys that didn't get to play much but had great attitudes. You know, they were good locker room guys, they, you know, um maybe maybe our best players still had a lot of humility. Maybe, you know, however it was where these guys all kind of fit together in in one, you know, sort of a group with one common goal. And I I think that that is what makes teams great. Um I don't I don't think there's any question that it's not just the most talented you know collection of people. I mean, sometimes it's it's talent matters, like you just said, no matter what you what role you're or what line of work you're in or what teams you're on or whatever, but beyond that, there has to be people who fit in to certain roles and do certain jobs and um you know kind of have pride in the way they go about their business.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think I think that's where the part of the quote of the talent will dictate our floor, right? I mean, like, you know, some people are just gonna walk like that UCLA women's team was gonna walk out on the floor and accidentally win a lot of basketball games. Right. That doesn't mean they're gonna be national champions until they were able to like take five, six, seven different WNBA level players and like work for the common goal, right? So it's that sacrifice. So like I I think the same is true in all leadership and all staff. I wouldn't ask you about when when we talk about hiring teachers, hiring um, you know, you know, different personnel people, maybe as a coach, you could talk about um a staff, choosing assistant coach, things like that. That that stuff matters too. And isn't the same thing true? Oftentimes you're not looking for the most brilliant coach, or you're not looking for you're you're looking to to use the Herb Brooks coach, you're looking for the right coaches, right? It has to be something that all fits so that when you go to put the puzzle together, you can work more for the common goal. I've seen a lot of of teams that are really talented and they just kind of leave a lot out there on the year. They win a lot of games because again, they're talented. I see some incredible coaching staffs, but I watch and I'm like, I don't know if they're all pulling in the same direction. Yeah, that that's that's a big deal too, right? Like when you go to put together your your staff, uh may maybe use a basketball staff as an analogy to maybe prove a little bit of the point we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because I mean you you know, ultimately, and we talk about it all the time, the importance of relationships between people and being able to work together. And if you take the take like a coaching staff, I mean, ultimately, you know, there has to be at some point, you know, whether it's collectively decided upon, whether whether you even work with your kids to help decide, there has to be a culture, an overall theme of what you want this team to be, uh a set of standards, a set of beliefs, right? This is what we want to do. And and and all the coaches, if if a coaching staff's gonna be a quality staff, they all have to be all in on that, you know. Even if it may not line up with something specific that you agree. So like you might be an assistant coach and you might be a big believer in you might be a big believer in everybody should wear the same team shoe, right? I'll just use or you might be a believer in um you know shirt tails should be tucked in during warmups. Or I'm just throwing things out there, you know. Maybe, maybe you're sort of an old school type of um you know, belief system of of you know, I want it to be done the way it used to be done, and I and and uh, you know, maybe really strict mindset, but maybe the program as a whole, maybe the head coach is a little more um modern or or you know, maybe a di uh maybe a little bit of a different thinker on those things. And you know, you have to be willing to to you know not give up your belief system, but fall in line with the team, right? It's almost like it's almost like I had a coach once tell me um when I was an assistant, like we can disagree. All we want to disagree in this office and and and we can debate or whatever. But ultimately, when the head coach makes the call on what we're going to do, then we put in a united front, right, in front of the team. Um one of the things where appearances matter, right? The last thing you want to do is go out there as a coaching staff and you're trying to implement a game plan on a Wednesday afternoon for a Friday game, and the and the coaches aren't even on the same page, right? And and they're disagreeing or whatever. Uh that sends kind of a mixed message to your players. So yeah, I think I think again, it just goes back to putting the team before yourself. The same thing you ask your players to do, right? Put the team before themselves, coaches have to do the same thing.
SPEAKER_01I I'm glad you went that route because as I look back through my notes here before I go to closing uh the closing uh comments, for people that don't know what what Matt and I try to do is we try to just have conversation about these topics, and then we always try to end with a little bit of strategy and what we kind of get out of our study of the topic and and and kind of want to share some ideas and so that we just don't come on here and state the problems, we also give some solutions. So I guess Matt, this almost this almost starts the closing remarks because it's it's probably the number one thing I have ended up getting from this discussion. And you talked about it with the assistant coach. I wanted to go back to something I missed in my notes. When you start to deal with stakeholders, maybe it's a player as a coach, right? Maybe it's a staff member as a principal. I guess the line has to then be how can you let each person be themselves and work to get you know what it is they're wanting to get out of the experience while still making the most important thing the most important thing? Is is that kind of the line that the leader needs to most be aware of? Like, for example, if you have a player that has a little bit of a personality on the edge, what's the line? Well, I guess the line would have to be whatever that standard is for you in terms of the non-negotiable. Like, well, we're not going to disrespect the other team, we're not going to disrespect the game, or we're not going to cheat. We're not going to, you know what I'm saying? Like, you you follow what I'm saying? Like, like, like when you're trying it's it's easy to say, well, you just got to let so-and-so be so-and-so. Well, there still has to be a line of accountability there. Am I saying that right? Because to me, that's the number one closing remark that I probably would have in terms of what I've learned from the show.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think that if you, I mean, because let's face it, a part of it is if if who you are, quote unquote, you know, your authentic self starts to interfere with the bottom line. And let's say the bottom line in sports oftentimes is winning. And I'm not saying that's everything, but you know, that's kind of what you're trying to do and trying to be successful. So, in other words, well, I was just being myself when I overreacted toward an official. Well, you got a technical and they made two free throws, and that cost us points. Okay. So that affects our bottom line. Or I was just being myself when I yelled at a teammate out on the floor and, you know, went over the edge and embarrassed him. Well, that teammate now didn't play very well the rest of the game. He was upset with you. We had bad team chemistry, it cost us the game. You know, you understand what I'm getting at there. When you, when you're when your behaviors start to start to interfere with the standards or start to interfere with the team's success, yeah, you're crossing lines, right? So there's a limit to how authentic you can be. I mean, um, we we we said it earlier, it doesn't give you a free pass just to say and do whatever you want to do. Everybody loves that authenticity, but but there but obviously there has to be limits involved.
SPEAKER_01Well, and then and then the second and final point would be this in terms of what I learned is you you've got to also be aware of fake. You know, I mean, I I'll deal with this in the middle school an awful lot. You know, you you'll get a couple 12-year-olds, man, in come to the principal's office and they can say exactly what you want to hear, you know what I mean? And then 10 minutes later, you know, the the uh behavior in the hallway may not, you know, relate to what was just said in the principal's office. I I think the same thing is true in all walks of life. I think adults are the same way. I think I think it's a communication thing, but I also think we used the word authentic earlier, you know, a lot of times when it comes to being fake, that's a problem as well. Now, I had someone the other day say, well, I'd I'd almost rather them fake being good than going and being bad. Yeah, okay, you know what I mean, like probably, but but at some point, if the relationships in leadership don't have a little bit of re of real in them, at some point there's going to be some cracks in in the overall process. So I think there has to be a balance of of being who you are and true to yourself, but understanding what what that line is. So I guess the second point I would ask that that I've kind of really taken a big point from the show is um I don't know that fake will work. Is fake better than than than doing just blatantly the wrong thing, maybe, but at some point the fake just isn't going to to to be something that's going to uh withstand the the truest adversity that you know is gonna come.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's always been one of my pet peeves, Shane, like like like people who who want to play the role, is what I call it, you know, and be come across to be super super classy or this, yes, sir, no sir, you know, but then and and and you know they're going out though behind your back, and then they're they're they're they're causing dissension with with people you know within your team or within your organization, they're saying this or saying this, or you know, whether it be somebody in the break room or somebody in the locker room on a team, and and you know, they're coming across to you, saying all the right things, and they want to come across as classy. That's always been a little bit of a pet peeve of mine. I've had kids, I've had kids who who who on my teams who came across that way, but I knew that they were the ones kind of saying some things behind the scene and causing some problems. I've also, the flip side of that, I've had I've had kids who who were a little too emotional, cussed a little too much, or you know, whatever it is, right? And you're always having to kind of like, hey, listen now. But you knew they were like great teammates. You knew that they loved their teammates, you knew that they loved the team they were on and they were given everything they had, right? So it's like, what do you want? You you're talking about faking it. I think there's a difference a difference between faking it occasionally and being fake. All right. So like we all fake it sometimes. We don't have to do it. Like if your wife says, hey, does this dress make me look fat? Right, you're not like if you think that it does, you're not gonna say it, right? I mean, there's a lines you're not gonna cross, man. I mean, but but like but like if you but but what I'm saying is today, and and like there's times you're just being polite to somebody out in public or somebody tells you a joke, somebody tells you a joke, you think it's terrible, you give them a little courtesy laugh, right? Like a little chuckle, right? But like it's it's that's that's okay. But what I'm saying is there's a difference in that, and then just completely f being fake in what you're trying to do. And I think that I think that's where where people aren't really attracted to that either. Like, like if you're a leader, I think people tend to follow people they think's authentic, even if they're a little different from them. Um, you know, like I think people can follow somebody who maybe they don't agree with 100% or is a little bit different if they know they're getting the truth, right?
SPEAKER_01If they know they're getting the truth, well, the word the word you used was respect because because here's the bottom line, Matt, is like like like take a situation at school. If if a 12-year-old student looks at it from his or her perspective, a teacher looks at it from his or her perspective, a principal looks at it from his or her perspective, and a parent looks at it from the same exact thing. Just happened. You have four different perspectives there. You're probably not always going to be on the exact same page and agree, but the true leader is able to manage all of those personalities and egos and make the most important thing, the most important thing, which is to try to help that kid be successful in a school setting and get something out of school and move forward, right? Same way as a coach, a coach, a head coach, assistant coach, a parent, a player, a media member, all seeing the same thing. There's gonna be a lot of different perspectives there. Can you make the most important thing, the most important thing, and manage all the egos and move forward? So I think sometimes there is a fake element, but it's almost a mature, respectful thing of like, hey, I don't I don't think this person's really getting this here, but I want to be very respectful and I want to try to see it through their eyes so that I can then share the point that needs to happen to move forward. Because ultimately, don't you think that's the foundation of leadership? Like if we're if we're learning something from all these shows we're doing, leadership's hard. So we're we're trying to figure out, we're trying to figure out how do we handle these difficult things. I'll be honest, some of some of the easiest jobs I've ever had is when I've had really good players that have really good attitudes and they show up and practice really hard every day, and we won a lot of games. I don't know if I did anything magical, you know what I mean? There's been other times where I've had some teams that we haven't won a lot of games, but I've I probably did a better job of leadership by just keeping it together to get us through a season to get the most out of it that we could. You you follow what I'm saying? Like I think sometimes the fake element is necessary to in terms of respectfulness that that allows you to manage egos and I know you always like to say keep the most important thing the most important thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I don't think there's any question. I think that um Yeah, I think when sometimes in leadership your best uh performances aren't always the ones that either win championships or lead to you know great awards or whatever. Um sometimes sometimes it's it's just helping a group um maybe not underachieve, maybe, maybe just to be able to get to a certain level, right? So because maybe, maybe maybe there's just from a talent standpoint or from some some really some personalities that don't mesh naturally or whatever, right? Um some of those times are the most challenging leadership situations we get put in.
SPEAKER_01Well, my that clears out my notebook. Uh yeah, if you have anything else to add, please do. I do want to let people know. Uh this is episode 80, so obviously we've had 79 other shows here. If you're new to the show, make sure you subscribe to the channel here, SVC Sports Zone, here on YouTube. And um that way you you always know when a new one's coming out. But if you if you like some of the things you hear, I think over the years we've done topics that probably uh would go just about, you know, with would would leadership-wise stay true no matter what time period it is, in terms of uh why we did a show or some different things. I know we did a lot of things with the Last Dance series, uh the Captain series on Derek Jeter. Uh Matt and I have just tried to take things over the eight seasons that are relevant in the sports or leadership world, and and a lot of times just sit and talk about them. So um hope you get something out of it. Um a lot of times the conversation does turn from an entertainment situation, but uh I think I think if you really dive into the content of the show and and try to play along with us, uh you can really grow from a from a leadership standpoint. So, you know, Matt, I'll give you the final word before I guess out of here. Uh, maybe maybe one final uh statement on what we've tried to do through 80 shows of expanding the zone and and uh what you hope people can get out of it each and every week when they tune in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, Shane, I think it's been fun for us just to take different topics, and we've tried to a lot of times these topics are driven by something we see, you know, like this topic was driven a little bit tonight by a couple things that happened during the basketball turn in March Madness, right? Where a coach might say something in a press conference or somebody made the comment about the coaches wearing suits, and it got us thinking about appearances versus you know reality and all these things. So we try to take things that are relevant during that time, but you're right. I think once we get into the discussion, I think that even a year or two later, you know, like when you look back at some of our old shows, um, man, I think some of those shows we did way back uh what when COVID was going on. I mean, I think we we go that far back. And but I think some of the topics could still be relevant now for sure. Um it's fun to go back and listen to some of those shows uh that we did so long ago. But um, yeah, we've enjoyed it. Like you've always said, it's sort of professional development for us too, because as we talk about this stuff, as we look into it, we start to think about things we could get better at, things we could improve on as leaders. And uh so yeah, it's fun for us. Uh hopefully somebody gets something out of it from time to time. And uh uh regardless, uh, it's it's enjoyable for us to do.
SPEAKER_01No question about it. And on that note, uh we'll we'll get on out of here again. Appreciate you you watching episode 80 uh here in season eight of expanding the zone. Uh, Matt and I will be back next week uh with with another great topic and another great opportunity to learn uh some leadership. So I appreciate everybody. Make sure you subscribe to the channel, and we'll see you next time on Expanding the Zone. Thanks everyone.