Episode 81: When it Rains It Doesn't have to Pour

Shayne and Matt discuss handling adversity.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Welcome back, everybody. Episode 81 of Expanding the Zone. And uh this is Shane Combs alongside my brother Matt. And tonight's title is When Adversity Rains, it doesn't have to pour here on season eight. That's our fourth episode uh of the season. And Matt, uh I was joking as I put this particular agenda together, this might be more therapeutic for me than anything, is the Cincinnati Reds uh coming off a long losing streak. Now, just to be transparent, we are recording after they've come home and have actually won a series against the Houston Astros, and they've actually won six of their last eight series. But as they went on that you know dreadful uh road trip and didn't win a game all against divisional opponents, I know night by night uh my stress level and my frustration level was building up, and uh as as I do with so many things, a lot of times I look into it as leadership and some different things and coaching and uh just kind of came up for this show title. I'm really excited to talk this over with you. Um, I'm sure at least from a Red's perspective, you got to feel a little bit better now than you did uh three or four days ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah, you know, uh it was uh that was a rough stretch there, man. Seven, I think seven losses in a row. And I kept telling myself, you know, you know, I need to take a break from them. Let's skip one game, you know, then I would, you know, come back for another, right? Sit down and watch the game and and uh take it again. But uh yeah, it was it was uh it was a challenging stretch there. And then when you sent these show ideas, I kind of laughed because I was like, yeah, I see where he's coming with this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

You know, when when I when I look at it, I guess, and this is you know a lot of the the frustration of that stretch with the Reds, but you know, you you coach long enough or you're in leadership long enough, and you do start to ask yourself, you know, adversity is gonna come and it's gonna come in stretches, and it's gonna come with some some bad luck here or there, it's gonna come, you know, and there's no way to avoid that. But I do think there's something to not letting it spiral out of control. I think there are a lot of factors that go into this particular thing. And uh I guess the big question I would start with is are you part of the problem or are you part of the solution? You know, I mean, it's one of those things where when I think of that question, I I see so many people that are able to complain and are able to do a lot of things. Now, in our role as the Cincinnati Reds, we don't have anything to do with them winning or losing. You know, we we're just passionate fans, but I'm talking about when you're involved in the group, if you're a player, if you're in the front office, if you're a manager, you do have a lot of impact in that particular thing. So when you're in a position of leadership or when you're on a particular team or you are invested in the day-to-day grind, I think that's a fair question. Give me your thoughts there uh to get us started tonight on when you hear are you a part of the problem or are you a part of solution, is that just a cliche type of question, or do you think that has some uh seriousness to it in this type of topic?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Yeah, no, I think that it has, I think it definitely has its place. I think that you know, I think when you're on uh um, you know, a bad streak, a losing streak, or whatever, um, and you're going through some adversity, or you're just going through adversity in another walk of life, unsports related, I guess. Um Yeah, I mean, I I we we talk a lot about you know the things you can control, right? We've talked about that on the show, attitude, effort, and those types of things that you can control. And I think a lot of that comes into play in situations like this. And I think that, you know, uh when you're a leader of a group, um, I think I think sort of the the art, if you will, to being a coach or to being a leader or whatever, is to kind of have that that I guess sort of that gut instinct or feeling of how to act, when to act, what to say, when to say it, right? Those types of things. And I think also then the flip side of that is some of that leadership has to come from from um within, not just the the head of the organization, not just the coach, right? But like on a team, some of that leadership has to be player leadership. And I think that I think the best teams have those players who have been through this before, kind of know what to say and what to do. You know, it's that fine line, when do we when do we have that uh when do we have that closed door meeting where it gets kind of intense, right? Versus when do we just say, hey, stay the course, stay positive. But but I agree a hundred percent, Shane, that it does come down to to to whatever approach you think is best, being a part of putting it back on the tracks, getting it back on the tracks, not just pouting, hanging your head, oh, here we go again, or you know, who, you know, not my fault, right? I'm doing my job, that type of thing. That's I think those are the situations that get you in in a lot of trouble and and and with your show title makes it uh instead of raining, pouring.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

You know, when I when I when I think about this, I I asked myself, for for the Reds, it was seven games on that road trip. I think they'd lost the one before they left and they lost the one when they got back, so I think it was nine overall. And I was asking myself, how does three straight losses become six or become eight or become 13 out of 15, etc.? You know, in terms of those bad stretches. And and I guess for me, I I hear this stuff before. Well, you know, this stuff can happen. It's Major League Baseball, it's whatever. Maybe it's scheduling, maybe it's expectations of talent. Sometimes in high school, especially, you might just go through, you know, if you're already a team that, you know, in in football, if you're already a team that was going to struggle to go three and seven, it may not be that that far-fetched to think you're gonna lose five in a row. You see what I'm saying? Right. But so sometimes it could be scheduling, sometimes it could be expectations of talent. Are you supposed to win? Are you even capable of winning? In Major League Baseball, I think it's one of those situations where I have a hard time believing that once you start to lose four in a row, five in a row, six in a row, that there's not other factors involved. And I and I guess that's what I want to talk about here in this particular segment. I I hear about bad luck, and I'm not saying you can't have a bad call one night. I'm not saying you can't have a bad hop. I'm not saying you you you can't just hit a couple line drives right at people with the bases low. I mean, sure, is there bad luck in all sports? Yes, but you know, I I hear like examples of the um record in one possession games in football, and they're like, well, that's gonna flip year to year, or one run games in back and baseball, or basketball games decided by five or less points. Matt, I'll be honest, there's a lot of times I watch a lot of teams that must be really lucky because I see a lot of teams that make a habit of winning those types of games. You see what I'm saying? And then I see a lot of teams that make a habit of losing those types of games. Now, can talent play a factor in that and all those things we just named? Yes. Yes, but like I have a hard time believing when you come down to those winning plays and you come down to things that you normally can do that that doesn't impact winning a lot. Like when I watch people not be able to perform the most basic concepts of their level, like we're talking about major league players. So to stay on the Reds analogy, I watched I watched an everyday uh outfielder drop a fly ball, right? I watched a guy who has been a starting catcher in the league not know the rules in terms of like tagging the guy coming home. I watched major league pitchers once walk seven guys in a row. A team that it's not even the middle of May has walked like 14 runs in. You see what I'm saying? Like things that are not over-the-top professional things, therefore, like like I guess in coaching, I a lot of times I would look to see, well, okay, you you could throw a lot of strikes in February when pitchers catchers started, but if I put the scoreboard on and put a uniform on and put you out with an umpire in in front of another team, could you still execute your pitch? Those are two different things. Does that make sense? So, like, so tell me if you follow me in terms of I have a hard time believing that these things just happen. At some point, there has to be uh an urgency or okay, they might happen, but it's unacceptable, and we're not going to do this, this, and this. Am I making sense there?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, and I think it's it's it's a tricky thing, you know, sometimes with with people who who really thrive in pressure situations versus people who struggle with that. Where does that come from? And and but and more importantly to me is how in the world do you coach it, right? Like how do you coach a certain level of confidence in those situations? How do you coach um I mean, you know, you can you can you think you you at least like to think you can coach situations, right? You can coach learning you know, learning certain you know, I guess rules to follow in certain situations and certain approaches to take. But but there are s we've all been around players who just sort of rise to the occasion. And let's face it, we've all been around players who sort of shrivel up in those situations too. And and and that's a hard thing, I think, as a leader to to figure out. You know, the the old saying is you sort of revert back in pressure situations, you sort of revert to your training. You know, I mean you sort of revert back to your baseline, right? And you know, whether, you know, you know, it it's pretty hard to expect, for instance, in basketball, if if you're the type of player that's in a shooting drill in practice with really no defense and you're shooting 35% from the three-point line in that situation, you're probably not good enough to shoot that in a game, although 35% in a game would be okay, right? But are you going to shoot the same percentage in a game with pressure and with defense as you do in a shooting drill and practice with none of that? So I think I think part of it is your training, sort of what you put yourself through, the situations you put yourself in. But like you say, when you see major league players, right, just forgetting to tag a guy when when the force has been taken off, you know, on a double play. Um, you know, the drop fly ball, and you know, I guess that's a physical mistake, but again, that's got to be partly mental, I think. Just kind of at that level it does. Right. And and you just start to see guys, the base running mistakes, right? Guys not getting a secondary lead with two outs um and can't score from second on a hit, and you know, all these little things. Do you think, Shane, sometimes the physical, like when when there's physical failures, right? The things you talked about, hitting, hitting, right at uh hitting atom balls in certain situations, and you know, you lose, you lose a tough walk-off game, come back the next night, you're leading in the last inning, you lose another tough walk-off game. Do you think that eventually the physical frustration, if you're not mentally tough enough, does that bleed over into the mental side of the game then and you start to kind of lose focus because you're so frustrated from the other stuff?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Well, I think it has to. I I think, and and again, I understand part of that is normal. You know, I mean, we we we as coaches, we throw around terms like effort and attitude all the time. And we talk about ownership of mistakes, we talk about uh being open to coaching and and and so forth. But and I think all of that is normal, yes, to answer your question. But like at the same time, I feel like there there's gotta be um there's gotta be a a little bit of approach in terms of how you go about competing. You know, I mean, in terms of it, it it has to bother you a little bit. I'm not saying it should be the 10-year-old who stomps in off the driveway, you know, that they're mad that they lost. I'm not saying that, but there's gotta be, there's gotta be a level of, you know, when you're when you're getting as as I joked with one person, when Jose Chifinho's pitching three times in a week, that's embarrassing. The first time it's kind of like, oh look, the backup catcher's pitching. And by the third time, it's like, okay, this is embarrassing. What are we doing? Right. Okay. And and I think that has to be, I think it's okay to have some urgency. Like sometimes I think the scariest thing in leadership is when you go the other extreme of like, gee, shucks, can't win them all. You know what I mean? It just happens. Like, well, I, you know, maybe it does, but it can't be okay. You see what I'm saying? Like, don't you think two things can be true there? I think as a leader, yes, there has to be some, you know, we're not just going to turn on each other and we're not gonna, but at the same time, it's okay to hold each other accountable. And I guess that probably goes back to something we've talked about. Do you have relationships and culture built to where when it comes time to test that culture, it's up to the test? Because if you don't, I think that's where two and three losses turn into five or six losses or losing eight out of ten, depending on the sport, you know. I mean, depending on the length of the season. You know, two losses shouldn't become three or four losses if you're good enough to win those next two games. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you're not you're not putting yourself in a position to regroup and and to approach things in terms of getting better. I I guess I guess that's what comes to my mind when you talk about that is is is finding a way to balance the the urgency without just turning on each other and turning it into a fight.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah, you know, you said a couple things there, Shane, that are interesting. I mean, I think I think sometimes I'll say, I'll say, I'll say, let me take a couple different angles of this, but sometimes as a coach, I think the most difficult thing to do, and I don't know your thoughts on this because we never really talked about this before, but like I think, I think the toughest thing to to know sometimes as a coach is is is what the the timing, right? The timing of your approach during like adversity. Sometimes even the timing of what you say and do during a winning streak, sometimes those can be, you know, you you know, you got to kind of keep your eye on things there too, because you know, all of a sudden humility becomes an issue, and uh we think we're great and we don't have to work as hard, right? But I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd rather deal with that than the losing streak. But but when you're going through a tough time, I think there's you you know, we did a show a long time ago, Shane, I think on analytics, and we talked about analytics and we talked about how sports have gone that way, and we talked about how we enjoy analytics and we use them. But if you remember in that show, I said, I said, and I've always believed this, that I think coaching is still more of an art than a science. All right. And I think in these situations is when it becomes an art because as a coach, you've got to sort of know when when do I react, like you say, when when's it time to get mad? When's it time to kind of you know put your fist down and say, hey, we're not, this sucks, you know, this is unacceptable, we're not versus when do we when do we say, hey, listen, we've we've had some tough losses here, we've got to stay the course, we've got to, you know, stay composed during this stretch. Um that's tough, I think, as a coach sometimes. That's a that's a tough call. And some of it goes to what you're saying. You you mentioned earlier the expectations, right? Um you know, if you're the type of team that you think is underachieving based on your talent level, and we had higher expectations than this, you're probably more likely to push the envelope sooner, right? Hey, we got to if you're a team that you kind of knew going in, man, it's gonna be a challenge day to day, and um, you know, I don't want to bury this team, they're already going through a hard time. I don't want to come in here and even, you know, add to that. Um the other thing, Shane, you said there that's interesting to me is two losses don't have to become four losses, four losses don't have to become I think there's some truth to that. I think do you think sometimes how you're losing, you know, that what's actually happening matters a little bit. You know what I mean? Like uh uh uh it did the other team just outplay you? Um did you did you beat yourself, right? Did did you make a lot of mental mistakes and just silly errors that led to you losing, or were you just not good enough, right? You went toe to toe, you played as hard as you could, and the other team was just better. I think don't you feel like that matters a little bit too? I think it's easy to get frustrated with a loss, right? Like losing's no fun, but don't you think you have to pay attention to sort of how that happened, the process of how it went down before you can really address it?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Well, I think it's a great point because I think I think it's one of the first real learning points of the show here. If you if you really stop to think about it in a leadership standpoint, the ability to critique where things go wrong and why they go wrong is really, really important because I think what you're referencing is the physical air versus the mental air. And are guys up there trying really hard? You know, I mean, sometimes you you you you're up there trying really hard to get a hit and you and you might try too hard. You might you might um chase pitches out of the zone where you're trying so hard to drive a run in, or in basketball, you you may have someone you know trying to do too much off the dribble. They're they're wanting to go make a play, they're wanting to do a thing. Okay, but or is it someone in your mind that's just saying, I'm not gonna run what the coach wants, I'm gonna go get mine, I'm gonna go try to make a play. There's two different things there, even though it might look the same. If you truly know your player, there's two different things that happen there. There might be the one kid who you know has a great attitude who you know is not ignoring the call. They're just trying to maybe do too much off the dribble, where there's another person doing the same thing, and you're like, that person's just ignoring my call. You know what I mean? Like, does that make sense? Like it could be that it can look the same to the person in the stand. There's two different things going on there. And that's why I say there are certain physical mistakes when your talent level reaches a certain point where even when it's physical, it's unacceptable. Like, so what I mean by that is take take the take the the major league pitcher walking, I don't think it was the same guy, they actually, you know, equal opportunity. Yeah, I don't know. I'd hope I'd hope you could get them the full. But like would the would the major league pitching staff walk seven in a row, or when the major league outputter drops the fly ball, or the major league catcher, I I again I'm gonna I'm gonna assume he knows the rule and he wasn't paying attention to all the guy stepped on third. You know, it that that's my point there is is is sometimes even in a physical mistake, okay, well he didn't mean to, but it's unacceptable. Like there has to be an accountability, like, hey, let's pick our play up a little bit. Let me show you, let me share this with you. I've always I've always felt like one of my biggest gauges in terms of what amazes me about greatness is to recognize what they're like at their floor. Okay, so so follow me on this. Take take one of the greatest athletes of our entire life and and Tiger Woods. When he was on, I don't care if you liked him or not, or if you were a golf fan or not, when he was on, it was pretty obvious how good he was, right? As someone who really followed golf or really watched week in, week out, more than just the majors or whatever, what would would blow my mind, and and I would even more for a modern day person that maybe follows golf, Scotty Scheffler does have, I'm not comparing him to Tiger, but Scotty, Scotty Scheffler does have a little bit of this of where when he has his A game, it's how much is he going to win by, right? When he has his B game, he's probably going to win. But what amazes you is even when he brings his like D game, C minus D plus game, like he might be lurking on the leaderboard over the weekend. You know what I'm saying? It's like his floor is so good that you know what you can depend on. And when I when I compare this into the business world or into like the personal life or or or like for me, I guess it would be education. I ask you, like, how does one bad day turn in or one bad hour turn into a bad day, or how does a bad day turn into a bad week, or a bad week turn into just hating your job, like being bit bitter about your job? And and I think a lot of times it's what what is what is the minimum you bring every day? And I don't know if that's a fair way to look at it or not, but like I'd like to I'd like to feel like every day, I'm not my very, very best at work, but I I I would like to think that there, listen, there there's going to be a minimum for you're gonna get these things for me every day, no matter what. And you try to push yourself and you try to hold yourself to that accountability. And I think it's okay to look at that from from some of the the uh uh stakeholders in all of of this. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Yeah, it's uh th th this is a really intriguing thing to me, the whole floor versus the ceiling, right? It's uh it's so easy to be intrigued by somebody's potential. You see what I'm saying? It's so easy to think, man, gosh, the sky's the limit for this kid or for this player for this But at the end of the day, I I had I had a coach tell me one time, you know, his opinion was the best way to judge a player is on their worst day. And I thought that was kind of odd. You know what I'm saying? Like, uh, you know, what do you but what he was saying is you know, like if if you look at somebody when things are kind of going at their worst, you really know what type of player that person is because it's like you said when you use the golf analogy, there's certain guys that because as a coach, I think one of the things you look for as a coach and and and to me Shane is like what is sustainable? What can you count on every day as a coach? Like what do you know going in, okay, as a team we do this really well and I I know we're gonna do this. Even on our worst day we're gonna we're gonna guard right in basketball. Or on our worst day and and even on a day in baseball if you're a baseball coach that we don't crush it, we're gonna have good at bats. We're gonna, we're gonna, you know I mean we're gonna take some pitches, we're gonna work counts, we're gonna be disciplined. Yeah what can we count on? And I think that goes to your floor. You understand what I'm saying? Like when you look at a player's floor, it's like hey I can depend on this. Like like even when things aren't going well this player's going to give me this. And I think that to me I guess in leadership that might be the most important thing because like you said if you take it more onto a work level someone's at work they're having a bad day. All right are they going to are they going to turn the whole day into a bad day, the the day into a bad week are they going to bring some other people down with them, right? Are they going to be in the teacher's lounge saying, oh man, this sucks I you know I you know now you're bringing some other people with you um versus the people who can kind of write the ship and when they're having a bad day kind of turn it around and salvage it maybe even bring somebody up right maybe even pick up a coworker pick up a teammate. Yeah I mean those things are important. And I think I think it goes back to to what we talked a little bit about player-led teams and and people who have that ability within your organization to kind of help each other out I think that gets overlooked sometimes. I I think when you look at a team if you look at a team that struggles and has long losing streaks or has rough times that extend for a while do you think it's fair to ask the question who's the leader of that team besides the coach? Who on that team is the leader? Which player is the leader? Which worker is the leader? I think if you ask that question of teams that go on streaks like this, I think sometimes that'd be a difficult answer. You might have a hard time coming up with who that person is because I think teams that have that tend to stop the bleeding as you said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Well it's interesting I you know um one one of the guys I looked up to because of the position he played um as I was growing up watching your team is is I know one of your favorite teammates of all time DB Mullen and remember he would talk about yeah I think his I think his quote and and you'll remember better than I do was something on the line good teams don't lose two games in a row. Now keep in mind your your team was someone who went like 23-4. Teams don't come close to reaching their full potential if they go on these types of streaks that go beyond what they should lose. You see what I'm saying? Like is that a good way to paraphrase what he's saying? Okay. So my point is and I think it goes to what you're asking you know what what what's what's being done to stop the bleeding and I think a lot of times it's that it's that mindset and it's that it's it's that leadership that's that it's that accountability it's it's finding that urgency to like okay I'm not pointing fingers you know I'm not saying that you know we're not going to lose a game here there or whatever but that doesn't make it okay. Look we got to go here we got to we got to focus here we got to be better. And and I think I think there has to be a sense of that I think I think the talent that we talked about earlier it's one thing the ability to perform in those pressure situations you know I mean like all of a sudden if if you're if you're someone that shoots 90% from the free throw line but with the game on the line over the course of three or four games you go and in the fourth quarter you've been shooting 58% that's got to be as much of a confidence or a mental block. Maybe you're not preparing or practicing. Remember your example earlier are you practicing the right way are you putting yourself you know are you are you getting in and getting the extra reps in whatever it may be I think I think that's a really big question. I think another one in terms of the individual versus the group responsibility is is who's holding who accountable and who's who's available who who's stepping out into the front and who's going to hide in the corner you know when when things go bad I think availability and durability come into play here big time as well. You know what I mean like when you have when you have a bad Tuesday Wednesday at work are you the one that stops by the office to put in a you know the sick day on Friday or or is it one of those where no no no I gotta I gotta make sure I get this better and this better and this better. Same way same way with with with teammates you know I mean like are you are you are you watching your film are you are you staying after practice to get extra shots up uh you know whatever it may be if if you are a principal are you preparing for tomorrow's staff meeting so that you are prepared to lead and and send the correct message you know I mean I I I you know whatever the example may be a coach in the locker room the day after back to back losses in terms of the way you're going to address your team all of these different things but I think durability and availability are really big. You know one of my pet peeves in sports you know I did a a a uh show on pet peeves one time is the old this guy's on pace to do this. Yeah. You know I mean he'll have he'll have a great two weeks and you know and they'll talk about like you know man this guy over the last you know 19 games is hitting this this this and this well that's that's great but over the last 50 games he's only played in 30 of them. You know what I mean? Like it it's it's are you can I can it goes back to that floor thing I guess in a way in the worst time can I count on you to be there tomorrow can I count on you to play can I count on you to play hard can I count on you to play to win you see what I'm saying like so I think when I talk when I think about how do we stop the bleeding I think it's about having people it goes all the way back to our lead question that want to be a part of the solution you know I mean like hey I might not have all the answers but man I'm in this with you I'm ready to move forward I'm ready to work hard I'm ready to do this this and this and I think I think that's the foundation of it all regardless of the talent you know like DB's comment that he made clear back when you were in high school that makes a lot of sense to me for your team because your team probably was too talented to lose two in a row maybe maybe this particular team maybe it's more like in like in major league baseball I made the comment to a couple uh buddies that are Reds fans with me when you go on that road trip and you lose seven in a row in major league baseball over the course of 162 games do you understand how valuable it would have been to cut that to two and five right like you're in division that's that's three off of the 500 mark instead of seven right that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

How much more would it have taken just to to win two of those you see what I'm saying somebody stepping up and making a play someone stepping up and and and and doing some things um so I th I I think to me there is something to be said about the attitude and effort the durability all the different things we talk about and some of those things can really shine the brightest when you go through some of this type of adversity yeah I agree and and and I think we we talk about all these abilities right durability and and availability and it comes back to some accountability too because I think that I think that the best organizations have people from within that help hold each other accountable. I think like you know teams um or the best teams they they have a certain level of honesty with each other um they're they're able to talk to each other in in an open honest fashion um in terms of hey you know we've got to pick it up this is what we got to do we're not doing this well and then there's a certain level of accountability like you said just for showing up every day right and do and putting the work in and and and going through your routines and man it you know it's always a little tougher I think to come in to practice the day after a loss but you come into practice and you you do your stuff right you you put in your work you you you you do what you know I I had a guy tell me one time when I my very first year of coaching the first year I ever coached varsity basketball shane um we started 0-7. So my coaching career started 0-7 at at Portsmouth East. Now this was a team that when I when I if you talk about a vote of confidence when I interviewed for the job they said hey we won three games last year and you know we think we can do the same this year basically you know what I mean it was like all right I'll take it right because you know I wanted to coach so so we start 0-7 and the seventh loss was was we missed a layup at the buzzer that would have won the game. Okay wide open offensive rebound layup missed it lost um it was also about an hour and 20 minute bus ride back home which made it even better so so on the on the bus ride back home I remember being so down on the dumps thinking man I don't think I'm cut out for this I you know I don't you know and and uh a good friend of mine said I said to him I said I don't even know what to do with them at practice on Monday. I mean we're so down on the dumps and he said you're gonna do the same thing you did last Monday. In other words just stay the course right stay the process go back put your work in to your point I think showing up the next day helping each other you having accountability where you help each other stay you know stay on task like not like hey man I've had a tough week I got the Friday flu I'll call in sick right no it's it's hey come on you know we need you here um let's get this thing done um I think I think some of that's true and I think that goes back to some of that player leadership Shane I talked about and uh but but but no I I agree a hundred percent I think let's face it I think a a lot of overcoming adversity is just putting one foot in front of the other right and just staying at it yeah it really does and and Matt I I have um I guess I have two two points I want to make and I guess this would go under final thoughts so if I cut you off just throw your notes in there and we'll go as long as you want to but for people who don't know we always get to this point we always want to make sure that we're trying to share what we learn through this as I said this is my therapy as being a Cincinnati Reds fan the but what I what I learned from this and what it reminds me of in my in my coaching and my teaching and being a principal and all these things number one you you said it earlier and I made a note of it down here I think reflection and evaluation is really important.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yeah I think I think win or lose I think sometimes when it's going good we have a tendency to think oh we're a complete genius and we're doing this right and we're doing this right and we're winning and then sometimes you lose and you're thinking this is miserable and as you said I don't know if I'm cut out for this or that type of thing. I think being able to reflect and evaluate correctly will be the first place I would start with sharing with young leaders on knowing how to react or where to go next because as you said there's a difference in how you react when you feel like on it they're trying really hard. They're doing everything I'm asking of them. They're coming in they're working really hard they're watching the extra film we tried to execute the night we missed a couple shots or in this case um you know we you know that that kid's really been working hard on keeping his hands inside the baseball and hitting the ball hard backside and he had second and third night with two outs and just hammered a line drive right at the second basement. You know what I'm saying? You see what I'm saying? Like it's one of those things where you're trying to evaluate are things being attempted to be done the right way or is this one of those things where no we let we let something get away here because we didn't play hard. We didn't execute we had we had some bad attitudes we didn't handle the way we talked to one another in that bad stretch in the third quarter and all of a sudden it turned into a much larger run for the opponent than it needed to or in the adult world you know so and so just is kind of refusing to to to attempt to do the procedure structure in our hallway and therefore it's breaking down some of our discipline issues here here and here in between this class change. You see what I'm saying like so you're trying to reflect on you talk to me about that first and I think it's important to have a reflection and evaluation to where you identify the correct problem because if you don't identify the problem correctly then it's hard to go and solve the problem therefore even sometimes not even intentionally meaning to you're adding to the problem and you're not stopping the bleeding you're almost making the wound a little bit bigger do you follow what I'm saying there?

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Oh I 100% I think that I think that that it's like I said earlier that's where the art of coaching comes into play right there's no manual for this I mean you got to I mean there are you know you can utilize some some data some analytics right to figure out maybe what some of the issues are don't get me wrong but I think ultimately it's it's a gut feeling it's an instinct of because you I think as a coaching you got to sort of know how your guys are feeling too right like are they are they at a point where they're a little bit fragile and and and and and need some you know a pat on the butt or are they at a point where they need a kick in the butt you know all these different things but you're right if you don't evaluate the problem correctly then it's gonna be pretty hard to fix it. And and then what happens like you said maybe you just compound it right if if if you don't know what your team needs and you go in and say you know hey it's time to get it going right now and you rah-rah and it's intense and now you go out and you lose your next two well now where do you go? Do you come in and rah-rah and go intense again because it loses its luster you know you've got to kind of pick and choose your spots understand what's going on so yeah I agree 100% on the evaluation piece.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

I I want to follow up on something you said there before I give my final uh second uh part of the final thoughts something you said there about analytics you know one one thing we do in our middle school at Paint Valley we we we take a look at end of the year reflection and we're already planning for next year and we're looking at big rocks and things that we want to you know change maybe it's in our scheduling maybe it's in our staffing maybe it's in our in our structure procedures and last year we identified three things at the end of the year we thought we needed to do well well when we reflected on those at Christmas time this year and at the end of the year we've knocked two of them out of the park and I mean it's made a world of difference in in our in our overall day a third one it's been better it's still still got some tweaks that we need to make it's a little bit more dynamic. It's an area that that's got a little bit more moving parts to it but it's way better than it was but it's still far from where it needs to be so we've I we've I re-identified that we're gonna try a couple new things and then we've added two more things for next year that we're looking to go so to your point I think sometimes it's important for you to have some people that you truly trust. You mentioned analytics but for for a coach maybe it's an assistant coach maybe it's an advisor of the program maybe like like sometimes in in in principalship I I I like getting together once a month with principals from other schools and just listening what whatever it may be talk talk to us a little bit about that in terms of how valuable is it that you can have someone you truly trust not to say yeah Matt you're right you're right you're right you're right but someone who when they tell you you're right you believe that you're really right because you know that that's a person that will tell you no Matt I disagree with you there.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah you know I told that story a minute ago and the guy that told me that you're going to do the same thing next Monday as you did last Monday wasn't even a basketball coach. He wasn't associated with the program. He was a coach of another sport that that wasn't even from the air just a guy you know so yeah I think that you have to have some mentors and some people you trust. And the other thing Shane I think sometimes important is to have a set of eyes that maybe aren't too involved like get a detached somebody who doesn't have the emotion in what you're doing right I mean I've asked you before right let's just be fully transparent here I said hey listen I want you to watch this film I want you to tell me what you see us doing I want you not that you don't care about me or the teams I coach or whatever but it's not like you're living it every day. You're not at my practices you're not you know so you can take a step back and as a guy who watches goodness I don't know how many basketball games you watch this year and how many different teams you watch play right you have a different perspective than somebody who coaches the same group of guys every day. So I think as a as a leader it's real important to find people who you can lean on and you can ask you can get an honest perspective an unbiased perspective right one that you know hey I don't have any skin in the game this is just what I see um yeah no I think that's crucial yeah Matt the last the last thing I had this would be the second point of my final thoughts is something that we talk about almost weekly on the show and that that that lends itself to culture and I guess I guess the thing that that I would suggest here to leadership is until your culture is tested I don't know that you can trust it.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

So like you know there there's some of the smartest people in the world that are coming up with different products and different things or whatever. They don't dare put them out on the market or do different things until they test it right they they want it they want it to go through trial and and and evaluation and reflection and all those different things and then they feel like they can trust it they can they can they can go further with it. I think culture works the same way until you go through some of these particular adversities I don't know that you can really tell how good your culture is now in that moment if it's not very good that's not going to stop the bleeding very well. It's probably going to add to the wound right it's probably going to open it up even more but if you reflect and if you make changes and if you do those surveys and if you you know make adjustments you can strengthen the culture more for the next time you know I mean and so it's one of those things where when we talk about are we going to go through adversity yes but just because adversity rains it doesn't have to pour it doesn't have to get worse. It doesn't you know I mean like it there there can be certain things in place that don't allow things to get so low. You can raise your floor to to use some of the same analogies we've used on the show. And I guess that's the thing with culture is like I said if the culture's not in place then maybe maybe it's not going to work that time but maybe you can use it as an example. And the reason I bring up culture Matt is because when it comes to holding someone accountable and when it comes to having one of those shouting matches in a huddle at the end of the third quarter going into the fourth quarter of a close game what kind of relationship has been built to absorb that compared to two people that don't like each other and that are arguing compared to two best friends that are arguing? That's two different things there, right? In terms of the way you're going to handle and the way you're gonna go about performing. You know there's been there's been a lot of times I've even been in adult meetings at work where we can disagree but because of the relationship we have we know at the end of the day we're both fighting and pulling the rope in the same direction. You know what I mean? Like we're we're we're going. Whereas I think too many times if those are people who have not had that foundation of relationship that can be a serious problem and that can lead to a bad day becoming a bad week or a bad week becoming a bad month and so forth, right? It can it can be negative connotation in terms of people hating their job and and and so forth. So I I know I know you're big on cultural Know I know you work hard to establish culture, but as we always say on here, isn't it funny how it always comes back to relationships? Because relationships still have a lot to do with not letting adversity pour.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Yeah, I mean, you know, the relationship piece, Shane. The funny thing about culture is two things. One, you and I'll come back to this, but you said it, it doesn't really get tested. You don't you don't really know how good your culture is until bad times hit, right? That's right. No, that's that's that's very true. That kind of stinks in a way, right? Like you can't even evaluate it while the good times are rolling. You know, you have to wait until something bad happens. And then the second part of it is all the work has to be done way in advance, right? All the relationship building and the things. I had a player this year, I obviously won't say his name. Great kid, one of the best kids I've ever coached in terms of attitude and just maturity and all the things that you would want out of a player. Um there was a situation where I got on him or I said something, and he kind of fired back at me, you know, not disrespectfully, but hey, this is what I saw. You know what I mean? Well, he's such a good kid. Like later on, he was like, that's my bad, man. I, you know, I didn't I said, no, I said, we're past that, dude. Like, don't bother me. You know what I'm saying? I want to know what you see. I mean, but the reason in my mind why we're past that is we've developed that relationship. You know what I mean? I didn't take it as disrespectful. I know it it wasn't disrespectful. He was just a competitor, and he's trying to let me know. You know, basketball in the heat of the moment, it's not a game of please and thank you. You know what I mean? We things are moving out here, and you just say what you gotta say. So I actually admired him for just, you know, the honesty. But but my point to all that is if he and I didn't have a relationship that's been built over the course of a couple seasons or whatever, right? Then that doesn't happen there. And and and then the other thing we I just mentioned, I said I'd come back to it, is is your culture getting tested. I just uh I recently uh watched this thing, some people may know it's called a master class. It's a pretty cool app you can get that's got these different like classes, I guess, or like, you know, series you can and and we watched the one about Coach Kay, Coach K's masterclass, and he talked about coaching Kobe Bryant. And you know, Kobe Bryant obviously was known as just a ruthless competitor, right? Like just cut your heart out type of competitor. And so this struck me as odd. He said, as weird as it sounds, he told Coach Kay, I sort of welcome a certain level of failure. He goes, I welcome a little bit of losing. He goes, I don't want to lose in like the you know sixth game of the NBA Finals. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose, but I welcome a little bit of it because it helps you evaluate where you're at. It helps you kind of know what I have to fix. And that goes back to that evaluation piece, right? When Kobe Bryant lost, he didn't waste it. He didn't just go home and be like, oh, well, you know, man, tomorrow's another day. No, I mean, he took it to heart. Okay, what happened? Well, how can we fix it? So those are the two things I would say about the culture, Shane, is is is is so much of that work has to be done in advance, right, to build it. And then you can only really evaluate it when you do go through some adversity. Um and then I think the rewarding part is when you go through adversity as tough as it is, and you come out the other side of it, and it sort of reaffirms that you know what, you know, we're not perfect, but we're getting there, right? Like like our culture withstood that. We we we didn't we didn't go at each other's throats, we didn't have guys quitting, we didn't fall apart, we just we stayed the course.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yeah, I I love that because I I've talked to a couple young coaches this year where you know their record may not be incredible, but I do feel like they're maximizing uh a lot of what's in their team, and to their credit, they've been able to withstand some losing streaks. They've been able to come out the other side of it, you know. So so a lot of times, even if your culture's in a pretty good place, you know, that they're continuing to show up, they're continuing to work hard, they're continuing to do it, might be a we got to get better, you know what I mean? But that that's part of what you're saying there too, and the reflection. So they all do kind of go hand in hand. I love that, I love that Kobe Bryant story because um he he was one of just an unbelievable competitors of our lifetime. Well, Matt, this this has been uh a lot of fun. My my notebook is empty um as we look back up here and we talk about you know just the handling adversity and not letting it get away. Uh, any final thought or do you feel like we've we've covered it pretty well?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

No, I think I think we I think we jumped through a lot of what I wanted to talk about. And I think I think it just comes down to like what you said, you know, kind of what you said at the beginning of of you know, are you a part of the solution, are you part of the problem, right? And if and and I think some of the things we've talked about tonight, I think the people who have had the most success, the teens that have had the most success, when things go bad, rather than finger pointing, rather than blaming, it's it everybody snaps into that mode of, okay, how can we fix this? You know, I think I think that's the easiest way to put it. You know, when things go bad, you know, watch you can watch people, right? Just watch people's reactions. When things go bad, are they the type of person that's like, okay, how can we fix it? Or are they the type of people will be like, well, you know whose fault that is. That's you know, and and those are the two, I think those are the two contrasting approaches, right? And hopefully we can take the approach of being part of the solution.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Yeah, I love that. And again, if you if you're new to the show, we appreciate uh Avis, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel here. Again, this is 81 in terms of episodes, so you can go back and listen to a lot of different things over the years. As I said, this is our uh fourth show here in season eight. So Matt and I have been at this for for quite some time. And again, we just like to take fun topics that uh come up in in the sports world or in our everyday lives. In this case, it was our favorite baseball team, unfortunately, losing every game for a week. Um, but uh, you know, we were able to to unpack it and get something out of it. Uh, and we hope we hope you did too. So on that note, uh make sure you subscribe. We'll uh see you next time. We can also pick us up on your podcast app if you want to take us, uh, take it with you uh on the road or as you're exercising or doing whatever, wherever you find your podcast app. Check us out, expanding the zone. So for Matt Combs is Shank Holmes, we'll see you next time. Appreciate everyone.