Episode 82: Enemies of Winning

Shayne and Matt discuss several things that they think get in the way of success. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Welcome back, everybody. Expanding the zone, Shane Combs alongside Matt Combs, and we're on to episode 82. Believe it or not, it's our fifth show here in season eight. And Matt, as the beat rolls on, as one of our favorite announcers of all time used to say, uh, we uh we continue down a path of some leadership and trying to gauge some success, trying to have success. One thing that's been on our mind here over the last week or so as you and I have been talking off the air a little bit, is getting out of the way of winning or things that get in the way of winning. I might even give the title name up to you a little bit, but uh maybe get us started tonight by giving us a little idea of what brought this topic on.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Yeah, you you know, we always talk about, you know, or oftentimes we've had show topics that have to do with you know different things in leadership. Uh a lot of times, obviously, it's tied into sports teams and coaching and things like that. Um, you know, a positive way to look at it would be like what things do you have to do to win. I guess maybe tonight we're looking at it from more of the pessimistic way, but things that interfere, just things that interfere with winning. You know, you see it all the time when you when you watch um maybe your favorite teams play, or just what watch you know, professional teams, college teams, and you kind of stop and think, man, that's something lacking here, you know, like kind of what's in the way, and and and you obviously see it at the high school level. Um I think you even see it in organizations. Uh, you know, people may see it in their workplace, people may have seen it in their workplace, maybe at another job or whatever, where just you know, we've all been in those situations where we have organizations we're a part of, you can just sort of feel it that it's good, right? And things are moving in a positive direction, and then vice versa. And I guess we're gonna be talking about the vice versa tonight a little bit in terms of just things that interfere or get in the way of success.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, it it's funny, you know. I was uh I was putting some notes together and I was watching um the the section on Scott Van Pelp, the bad beats, and and honestly, I'm not much of a gambler or whatever, but I do think those are funny. He'll always talk about the bad beats, and I always look at it from the standpoint of well, what if you bet the other way? That's a great win, right? So it it's kind of you, you're it's interesting that you start that way because there there really is two ways to look at it. You know, what gets um in the way of winning, or what allows you to get down the right path and to be successful. As I said in the opening, there we're on the show 82. So obviously you and I have been at this a while, and in our recent show, uh show 81, we were talking about Cincinnati Reds, and we were talking about when it rains, it doesn't have to pour, and we were talking about adversity, and we were talking about how you know in that case our favorite team starts the year like 20 and 11. They're winning basically two two-thirds of their games, and then over you know the the the last you know month or so they've they've been losing two-thirds of their games, and it does kind of lead you to some of these different things on why that is, and and I thought we did a pretty good job of laying that out in the last show. There's a lot of different reasons why, but I think one thing that you and I consistently come back to, and it's where I want to start this evening, is identity. I hear you talk a lot about that, and I think sometimes when when you don't have something for lack of a better phrase that maybe you can hang your hat on, I I think uh I'm paraphrasing here, but because I didn't listen back to our last show, but but I remember you saying something when we recorded that show about what can you count on? You know, I mean every every time you go into a practice, every time you go into a game, or every time you go to a day of work, what is it, what is it that you can count on in some of the identity, maybe for people that haven't um had a chance to listen to that show or haven't maybe followed our show before, I think it's a great foundation. Why don't you give us a quick answer on what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah, I think I think it's twofold. I think one, it's you know, the identity is is what is obviously important to your team or your you know your organization. Um, you know, I I I heard a coach one time say at a at a clinic I was at, just listening to him speak, if somebody walked into your practice within the first half hour, they should have a really good idea of what you're all about. You know, what what things are important to you as a coach. Um and that always sort of stuck with me. Um that that that you know, wow, you know, what it what if it's a weird day that we're not working on something or we're but what he was saying is whatever, you know, whatever you you feel strongly about will automatically kind of ooze out of your style of leadership, right? So like if you think as a basketball coach, communication's important or positivity is important, or whatever, even no matter what you're working on that day in practice, you people are gonna be able to see that in you as a leader and kind of see your kids doing that with each other, right? Um that's what he was talking about. So the first part of identity, I think, is is stuff that is obviously important to you. That when I say obviously, it just shows up. People notice it immediately. And then I think the second part of that, Shane, is your style or your approach. If it's an athletic thing, it's it come it can literally be what style of play, right, that you rally around. Do you are you a full court press, fast break team in basketball? Are you do you run the ball 75% of the time in football and you know, line up and and really try to control the line of scrimmage, right? In baseball, are you a team that that that steals bases, the hit and runs, the plays small ball? Are you a team that sits back and wait and slugs, you know, and tries to hit you hit with power? You know, all these things I think go into your identity also, which which would be like the approach. So it's they're the things that are important to you, and they're the things or the way I should say that you go about your business. Uh and and and I think those two things, Shane, in turn, kind of give you what you can depend on and what you can count on. We talked about that last week. Like I think successful teams have something that they just know, okay, good or bad tonight, we're gonna be able to count on this. You know, if if if as a basketball team, the basketball team I coached last year, we were fortunate to say, okay, no matter what we do tonight, I think we're gonna be able to guard people. You know, we're not just gonna come out here and give up a bunch of points. We're gonna guard. Uh so if we have a bad shooting night, we know we still got a shot, right? Uh, maybe in baseball, it's like, hey, we know our starting pitching is gonna give us a chance to win every night. Um, you know, we know if we get to the seventh inning with a lead, our bullpen's gonna give us a chance to win. Um, that that those are the types of things I'm talking about in terms of what you can count on. So I think all those things sort of melt, I guess, Shane, into your identity.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

It it's a really interesting place to start because it got me thinking about one of my favorite lessons I used to do early in the year in my ELA classes. Um, over the last five years or so, I've been into administration. Before then, spent about 20 years in the classroom, and and most of my teaching experience was in ELA. And I would do this lesson with middle school kids where we would take article adjectives and we would take like a and or or the okay. So, and we would just start a simple, the most basic thing of if if students walked into a room and I said, sit in a chair, or sit in the chair, that means two different things, right? It may it means something completely uh different. And the point we are making is how one word could be that detailed and and so forth. I say that to say this. I heard I heard a speaker once last year at a at a um professional development talk about there's a lot of people that can state a problem. There's a lot there's there's less people that can state the problem, there's even less people that have a solution to the problem, and then there's even less than that that play an active role in the solution to the problem. I wanted to throw those at you because don't you think that's part of a little bit of what we're talking about here? When you when you start to break those things down, sometimes when things start going the wrong way, when you don't have an identity, and that's where I wanted to tie this back in. When you don't have the identity or you don't have some of those staples that you hang your hat on, I think that's where it gets you guessing a little bit. I think guessing is a really scary thing for leaders to do sometimes. I'll circle back to that in a second, but I wanted to ask you about the the a problem and the problem and and people being a part of the solution or not even being close to part of it, because that's when you can start getting people going in a lot of different directions. And that's when what should have been, I think as we talked about last week, maybe a small problem, that's where it becomes a really big problem. It can start to spiral out of control. Do you follow that analogy that I'm trying to link to your identity there?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah, no, definitely. I think I think what as we get into some of these things we're going to talk about tonight, Shane, I think some of that's going to come into what you're saying right there. I'd never heard that before, but that's that's actually a really cool way to lay that out. I I like that. I think we'll try to write that down so I have it, but but uh because you're right. I mean, you know, it's it's there's a bunch of people that can point out a problem, right? And we see that all the time. Um but when you circle all the way to the other end of that thing, that someone's an active part of a solution, it's a lot more rare. And I think, you know, you said something about, you know, you said something about things, you know, maybe not, or people guessing or whatever, and not I and I think, you know, I heard one time somebody say clear is kind, right? Like being clear is is is kind in leadership. Even if it's something people don't want to hear, um, you know, I think the truth, and you've said it a million times, you know, you know, you you're not gonna call me a liar or whatever. You may not like what I say, but um, and and I think that's where that honesty comes into play, and that clear cut, um, you know, that clear-cut path that we're gonna take forward comes into, you know, in terms of your leader.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to give you a chance to to talk on that, and I wanted to circle back to something I I I kind of tease there a little bit in terms of leadership and guessing. Matt, I I know sometimes you you have to maybe make an educated guess, and I'm not saying there's not times where on it, you just don't know, and you're trying your best to do whatever, but I think in leadership, there's something to be said for you are in that position for a reason, right? Somebody on your team thinks you're very qualified to do that, or they think you have the skill set or the personality or whatever it is to lead that particular group. You as a coach, sometimes you might put some seniors or some captains or some different people in charge of certain things, and you're trusting that in a moment that maybe you're not there, that their voice will represent what you would want them to say, that type of thing, right? And I and I think sometimes guessing is a scary thing. I think you have to learn to trust your experience, all that you've been through, trust your ability, and make decisions all in and then sell it to the group. I think a lot of times what happens is when leaders give kind of a uh 50-50, they almost kind of build in the excuse of, well, I was never really confident in this in the first place. I think that's a scary way to go too. Um I I guess I'm kind of up in the air on that a little bit, but it's one of the first things I put down in my notes this week. Can you build off that for me? Because I just, am I wrong there? I just think I think uh guessing and not being confident in the decision that you've decided to go with can really send a uh a bad message to your group.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Yeah, I think I think sometimes, you know, you you you see different organizations, different teams, um, you know, change for the sake of change, right? Or just okay, this didn't work, we're gonna try this, this didn't work, we're gonna try this. And a lot of times, you know, it's it's just sort of throwing stuff at a wall and hoping that that something sticks, right? And and you're not really getting, you know, you're sort of just spinning your tires. And I think some of that comes down, Shane, I don't know what your thoughts is on this, but like I think some of that comes down to like maybe a lack of of a clear vision, you know, of what you're wanting your group to be. And you know, I know we throw around like one of the popular terms today is sort of a shared vision, right? We want we want our teams or our groups, you know, even in the workplace, ideally, we want that to be a collaborative effort, right, where we create this vision that we want. But I think sometimes it's not always, it's it's not even as important that it's shared, um, as long as it's clear, you know, because I think there are certain situations where you can't get the opinion of everybody, and you just have to go with something. Like you said, the leaders sometimes have to like I mean, I'll just jump to a maybe extreme example of this. Take the take the take our military, take our U.S. military. I can't imagine that's necessarily a shared collaborative vision. I think it's like here's what we're gonna tell you to do, and you're gonna do it, right? When you're when you but but but the but the message is clear. I can't imagine, you know, when when when new um members of our military and and as as as you know kids uh sign up for the military right out of high school and they go in and they go to boot camp, I I would say pretty quickly that's a clear vision of what we want you to do. It may not be shared, you may not have a say in it, but you're gonna know. And I guess what you're talking about here is somewhat like that. Like if we're not, regardless of if this is if we've come up with this together or if this has just been kind of thrown at us, let's at least make sure that it's that it's clear, that it's precise, like we all know where we're going. And like you said, not to waver on it, because if if you start off uh right from the word go, like you said, with a build-in excuse or with it kind of waffling, um, yeah, that's probably that's probably destined for for failure.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Well, it kind of leads us to another point here. Don't you think that that really hurts confidence? Like when we talk about things that get in the way of winning, I think sometimes just the ability to perform or the ability to be confident in who you are and what you want to do, can that can play a big, big factor. And and what more to hurt that particular thing than to see your leadership waver a little bit in terms of he or she not being confident in what they're they're asking you to do. You know, I I I think of it from a standpoint of um if if as a coach, if you're if you're asking a kid to do something, and you kind of come across as like, hey, I don't know if that you can really do this, but I'm hoping you can. You know, that's probably not the best way. So I mean, think about it. As a coach, once you decide that, you're really like, hey, I'm gonna have you in this role. I think you can do this because I see this in you, I see this in you, I believe in you. Let's go. You know what I mean? Now that's a whole different set. But when you come across in leadership as we we always say, you know, when when when kids are around you every day or you're in your your uh your your employees or your co-workers or whoever they may be, they know you well enough to know, man, Matt's being kind of fake today. Matt didn't seem real confident in that. When he was throwing that out there today, I don't know if I was buying what he was selling. I think people can identify that, people of all ages. So again, when you're not confident in your vision and you're not sharing it, and you're not, it's it hasn't been thought through, and you're not saying, here's what we're gonna do and here's why we're gonna do it, let's go. I think confidence starts to take a hit, and that certainly can get in the way of being successful.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yeah, you know, it's funny, Shane, confidence that could be a topic of its uh of its own. You know, I think we've even talked about this on some of our other shows before, but like, you know, confidence is such a crazy thing when you think about it because it's something that, you know, it's it's gotta be real, like you talked about. It's gotta be authentic. It can't be just sort of manufactured. Um, otherwise it's just fake bravado, right? I mean, you'll you'll and you'll see kids sometimes act like they're the most confident people in the world, but they're, you know, uh really sometimes that's covering up, right? Uh for for for a lack of confidence. But I agree with a couple things you said right there. One, you know, I've always felt like for players, for instance, um confidence comes through preparation. Like if you put in extra work and you really prepare, I think it naturally blends itself to more confidence. And I think as a leader, it's the same thing. When you talk about when you talk about presenting something to your group and and coming across as confident that it'll work, you're not going to be confident that it'll work if you haven't put in the work to research it, right? To really look into it to think, okay, this just isn't something I I shot from the hip on. I've put in a lot of time, effort, consideration on this. You know, if you're a coach, you watch film, you talk to your assistants, you put together the game plan, we really think this is a way to attack them. And by the time you present that to your team, hopefully you come across as confident because hopefully you are confident because you put in some time and effort to look into what the best way to do it is. And I think that I think that that's a part of I to me, that's a part of the knack, I guess, of of a leader, of being a good leader. You know, I played for a coach in high school who, you know, for whatever reason, when he would tell us something at halftime, or he'd make an adjustment, or he'd say, hey, we're gonna try this. I just always like when he would like there was just a way he sort of gave it to us that I thought it was gonna work. You know what I mean? Like I thought, you know what? And I look back, I look back, and sometimes it did work. No, I mean, I'm just being real here. I I look back, sometimes it did work, and I think, man, how did that work? I don't even know if that was like that big a deal, but it worked, you know. But like he had us believing that this would this would work, and that's part of the battle, right? Like, you know, as a leader, you've got to be able to command the room, so to speak, and and and if you can help your people believe um that it that it's gonna go, it's gonna go. I think I think that's a big part of confidence for sure. Confidence is fragile too, right? I mean, it can come and go, man, like that. You see it all the time. You see kids go through hitting slumps. What it's what did Don Neff used to say in baseball? You ain't got time to go through a slump in high school baseball. The season's only a month long, you know what I mean? Um, but but but yeah, but you'll see kids go through a little bit of a hitting slump. Um, you know, you'll you'll see it in golf, you'll see it in just different sports where people struggle and and you know it's between the ears, but how do you how do you get that back? You know, it's it's a crazy thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, it it's it's funny because I think I think sometimes with excuses, you know, we we we try to to write certain narratives or we we try to do different things, and you know, we we always say there's there's always things that are out of our control. But we say, hey, let's dominate the things that are in our control. Okay, so that that's always a funny thing to go back and forth. I want to hit both sides of that. So like when we talk about things that are out of our control sometimes, I'm I'm gonna give you one that that we're coming up on. Um one of the biggest things in the last five years in education that's really starting to take off because some of the different rules and the laws and the accountability that all stakeholders, uh not just the parent, not just the student, are starting to play a role in is attendance. And I'm sure you felt this a little bit in administration and so forth. And look, that's that's something that's really, really tough. You know what I mean? Like it's hard to absolutely 100% force the kid to come to school and sit in the room. But does that mean we just wash our hands of it? That that's the that's the whole thing that that that comes to mind. I think sometimes we we see things and we be like, I don't know what to do with that. You know what I mean? It's just like, and we want to write a narrative that immediately kind of gives us an out. Where I think sometimes if we truly believe that dag on it, the attendance is a big, big part of learning, and that's gonna have a lot to do with those students learning math, learning ELA, learning these skills that we need them to learn, then we've got to do something to to to get involved and to play as big a role as possible. Don't you feel like sometimes there are narratives that people try to write that almost give them an out? before they even start. And I think that's a dangerous way to just compete in life, and certainly when you're involved in leadership.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah, I think, I think it comes down to a form of of excuse making, you know, to to me. And you know, I remember I I the the the funny thing when you said that, it just reminded me of something I heard on a podcast one time that Urban Meyer, when he was coaching at Ohio State, told his assistant coaches, he said, I never want you, I never want to hear you blame the player. Do not blame these players. Like do not come in here and tell me these players aren't good enough is what he was saying. Right. He's not saying that don't recognize the player made a mistake, but he's saying don't come in this room and tell me, well, this kid's just not good enough because you recruited him. I mean not good enough. You messed up. You know what I'm saying? He told his position coaches that. And but I always it's always something that I've tried to that I've tried to adopt. Like it doesn't do you any good as a coach to blame your guys. Like like like don't get me wrong, hold them accountable in practice behind closed doors, but like publicly and like what what good's that do, right? And it's like you talk about you create narratives to say well well these people just aren't good enough to get this done or or we just live in too poor of a school district for that you know what I mean. We don't have the resources. We don't have the family structure and at home for these kids to come to school every day. We don't um kids don't come to school ready to learn so they're Baha all those things could be true, right? I mean factually there could be some truth to those. But what you're saying is true too if you go and use those as a crutch where are you getting right? I mean there's nothing to gain by that. To me I think sometimes it's scary the possibility of failure. So you give yourself a safety net. You know I had a kid one time I had a kid when I way back when I was teaching I mean man this was 28 years ago I think 26 years ago I can remember a kid saying I didn't care about that test. Yeah I failed and he was telling his friends I didn't care about that test. He cared. He wanted to pass but it was easier to say he didn't care than to admit that he failed right so it's and if if you lose a game I done I don't really care that much about this I don't you know it's just a lot sometimes it's easier to create that narrative you're talking about that little safety net that little cushion to land on if you fail rather than to admit hey I did my very best and it still wasn't good enough. That's a hard thing to admit sometimes but I think the only way we can go about it is to try to attack it and say we're going to do our best.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

No there's no question about it. I remember following two high school golfers about 20 years ago and and both were phenomenal players I mean all Ohio level players college level golfers and you'd go out and you'd watch them play over the course of a week and player A was just a pretty basic down the middle middle of the green two par type of kid this other kid had unbelievable amount of talent and he would try a lot of different things he'd do a lot of different things and at the end of the at the end of the week oftentimes player B would have maybe hit eight out of the top ten shots I'd watch that week and player A beat him by about 10 shots. You know what I'm saying like but it but it's one of those things where I think I think sometimes there is a fine line between we almost we almost build in ways to kind of soften the blow a little bit because you know what if I take that test Matt I'm just not good enough what if I admitted that I want to do well in this test and then didn't get a good grade now I got to really look myself in the mirror of accountability let me let me flip this to another way on you in terms of afraid to fail. This this is something that as I went deeper into my career I probably became more willing to trust my gut and trust my experience and trust some of those things. So I think that's the number one thing I want to tell people who are listening this is easy to talk about but when it talks about trusting your experience and your ability and making decisions all in for the group because when you're responsible for a group man that's hard you know I mean you want to make the right call and you want to do the different things I remember one time we were playing we were playing in the 2021 district championship of the VA and you know we we were fortunate enough to win district titles in 14 and 15 so we'd been on this stage before maybe ago or whatever. But for people that don't know basically you use your number one pitcher in the semifinal so when you get into the second game the district championship oftentimes you get into some different matchups and we had a situation where our second best pitcher was our best catcher and we were going back and forth or whatever. We got into the middle innings and if we didn't try something we were beat for sure and I don't even know what made me do it other than trust for a couple different players where I just basically looked and said I looked at one player well I'll just say who it is it's Trent Mettler it's the new Paint Valley baseball coach at Paint Valley he was a player at the top I just looked at him. He's an outstanding player but he was you know a guy who hadn't caught a whole lot I just said hey you got to trust me here you're gonna catch we put Dax E step into the mount or whatever we ended up coming back in the game and you look back on it and it worked I don't even know if it was the right call it worked that night but it was one of those situations where I don't think I could have made that decision or I don't know if I'd have had the guts to make that decision 10 years earlier in my career. Does that make sense? So like I don't want to come across on here as acting like this is easy. Leadership's hard so I like to trust your experience or your ability or to make these decisions all in and sell it to the group that's what we're all trying to build after I'm not saying it's easy. You follow what I'm saying I'm sure you could come up with some similar situations of things that you've done later in your career one because you're smarter right more experienced but two you're probably even a little bit more willing to kind of hey I got to do something here.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

I'm willing to try I'd rather try this and lose than to sit back and do zero and lose yeah it's funny you know we we we talked one time I remember about what motivates people is it is it's sort of you know you know some people are motivated by a fear of failure to an extent and uh some people are motivated motivated by the like the joy of winning which I think is probably the healthier way to be although I've I've freely admitted that I'm one of these people that's kind of driven by the fear of failure and it's kind of a miserable way to operate sometimes as a as a competitor because because sometimes winning gives you a sense of relief rather than joy and you don't really ever really enjoy it. But there's a difference I think between being motivated by that fear of failure which means that you don't want to be outworked and you don't you want to make sure you didn't forget to do anything and no stone unturned type deal versus what you're talking about being afraid to make a decision in the heat of a moment type thing, right? Being afraid to pull a trigger and make a call um because I think no matter you know what type of leader you are in terms of your motivation when you're in that moment when you're in the battle you know you have to be willing to make decisions that you could regret um just because otherwise what are you even there for right? I mean like like if you're a coach what are you there for if you're not there to make those decisions right you you know so you're gonna be faced with those and and look we've had situations like you're talking about where you make a decision it works and we've all had those situations where we make a decision we think ah boy that blew up in my face you know um uh I remember I remember we were playing chillicothe the year they won the state championship game and uh and uh Jeff Miller was my assistant at the time down Venton County and and and we come out after halftime and Humpty Hitchens people remember that name uh was having his way with us and uh and I I told one of our guys I was like listen you know you we've got to try to set a little bit of a tone. I mean he's just kind of freely going around doing whatever he wants to do. And I had a hard nosed defender I said hey I said I want you to get you know physical and not dirty obviously but I want you to get up in him get a little handsy with him you know get physical well the kid got up pretty tight on him and got a little too physical and then the Humpty started to drive and he got tripped and fell to the ground and caught a foul. You could tell he got up and he was kind of mad. And uh at that point I knew it was going to go one way or the other this kid was going to like get mad and frustrated and maybe lose it a little bit and hurt his team or he's going to get mad and frustrated and kind of take it out on us. Well he had like 17 in the third quarter so that's pretty much you you know what it did to him like the the getting up in him and and trying to crank it up a little bit backfired on us. And of course Jeff you know me and Jeff had a great line he's like yeah I think we ticked this kid off and I was like yeah yeah Jeff I think we did. But uh but no I mean my point is you make decisions sometimes that don't work too um you know the decision you made that day was you know like you said though sometimes I I I said to a coach one time I said that was a gutsy call and he said it wasn't the gutsy call it was the only call and I was like well yeah I get it maybe you're right you know like what seemed like in your case a gutsy call putting a kid in that's throwing 80 plus mile an hour and a kid who's hardly ever caught you know looks like a gutsy call but in your mind what else do I it's the only call I had to make the call so yeah I think I think sometimes that's part of being a leader that's the lonely part of being a leader is you've got to step out on that ledge sometimes and make those things and look it we live in a world of Monday morning quarterbacks you're gonna get second guessed so it's just part of it you got to know it's coming I look down through my list Matt and that's probably all of my my new material on the agenda so if if you don't have anything else I'm gonna jump into some final thoughts here I've got two steps to the final thoughts and I want to get your take on both of them number one we for for people that aren't familiar with the show here on expanding the zone after we talk about this we always try to leave you with a solution we we we don't want to be that person that states a problem right we want to state the problem or the problems that that we see but we want to be a part of play an active role in trying to to to figure out some solutions and get better and better at this thing called leadership I think number one I beg people to never stop learning I I think I think that the longer I go at this I think the reason I I have fallen in love with podcasts uh fallen in love with not only listening to podcasts but doing this the preparation it takes and us talking this out and us getting feedback and then uh professional development and all these different things is I constantly want to learn because I find myself even 28 to 30 years later depending on if it's teaching versus coaching about 30 years later I find myself in new situations all the time all the time because it seems like no one leadership situation is the same.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Maybe this time I'm leading kids this time I'm leading adults well maybe with adults I'm leading some people that are in their first five years of doing it where other people are 30 years into it and and those are two different things right and I think I think what I would challenge people is to never stop learning never stop reflecting make sure that you take the time to evaluate yourself figure out what worked what didn't work and why but make sure that you're you're surrounding yourself with people that you trust to where you can get honest feedback.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I want to start there in terms of don't don't you feel like that's a huge foundation and anything we talk about in leadership that if you continue to do your work and study uh and and put more and more things in your sort like earlier you said you're gonna steal that and write it down right I find myself doing that all the time you know what what's your thoughts on that in terms of how as soon as you stop learning in this particular uh walk of life you're you're really in trouble yeah I I I think the best leaders adapt evolve you know get better learn come up with different approaches because the the the landscape of the society is constantly changing right like every time you think you've seen it all something happens that you haven't seen yet right and and I mean there's been a couple things lately um professionally for me that I've never I've like man I didn't see that coming I agree I mean it's just you know and and sometimes in sports it's even like that you know uh but but like you know I think that's that's part of I think the people who have I've always respected longevity in leadership a little bit just the ability to do it for a long period of time because I think in doing it for a long period of time you have to adjust and adapt and evolve and get better. And you can't, you know, people that do it for a long period of time typically don't do it the same as they did 20 years ago. And part of it's what you're talking about. They continue to educate themselves they continue to try to get better. You know for me it's fun. To me to me listening to a podcast on leadership or coaching or reading a book or those things are enjoyable for me. To me that's part of the enjoyable part of the process I guess I used to love going to coaches clinics and I say used to because it just seems like there's not as many of those now I mean the you know there's still one big one every year that I try to go to for our coaches association. But but if you think about it now you have a 24-7 coach's clinic called YouTube really I mean you can just see whatever you want all the time right but to me I used to love going to those and just sitting there and listening to coaches talk and taking notes even if over the course of an hour long you know presentation you might only get one little nugget right that you write down in your notes but it means something to you that's how you get better. So no I agree a hundred percent I think it's part of humility like like like do you have the humility to to admit hey I'm not perfect I don't have this I haven't arrived I don't know everything I have to continue to get better. And I think you owe it to your people it it it goes back to to that authenticity you talked about of when you're standing up in front of your group um to be able to confidently or there's that word again address them and say hey here's why I think we're gonna we should do it this way it's because I've researched it I've looked at it I've studied it I've looked at different approaches I've talked to people I've done my homework um yeah I I I am a hundred percent uh Shane on board with that statement for sure hey I'll get to the second thing in just a second but I have to circle back to one thing you just talked about in terms of being able to go to clinics and talk to people and different things and about how we do have a lot of technology uh out our hands there's no there's no debating that but but I find it interesting the older I get the unwillingness of adults to get together and talk.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Like I I see it I see it sometimes in the workplace with staff meetings or I see it with teacher work days or I see it as you said coaching clinics or you know now let's just vote online instead of going and voting here let's do this let's do you know the the there has been a lack in the last probably 10 years of of of my career of getting together one of my favorite things as a teacher we used to do was what was called LCAP okay we would get together as teachers and we we have an an area wide test for ELA so all of these seventh grade ELA teachers from all over the county would get together and we'd have a test and we'd go over the test was great and the data was great but what I enjoyed more than anything a couple times a year getting together with people that from from you know men women some top 30 years some top 10 years some top five years some top 18 years and they've just shared ideas I see this I try this and I I do think we've we've we've lost a little bit of that and I think if we're not careful it's not to say we don't have more resources than ever and more material than ever but I'm afraid sometimes we do get a little robotic do you think that's hurt the people skills in leadership I know that's kind of off the agenda but when you were saying that it just it it hit me as something we really need to talk about real quick.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

No I agree I think two things happen Shane when you don't have that I mean I think one just the camaraderie right and the fellowship between colleagues or I think that's a plus like I I remember I was so lucky to have this my very first year being a teacher um I was a part of like uh I was at a school that did like team teaching where where you know I was the social studies teacher on our team and you know you had your English teacher your math teacher your your your your science your specials excuse me all those all those areas and we had in in addition to our individual planning period we had team planning every day every single day we had team planning which put five teachers in a room and talk you know and you talk about the benefits of that. Now were there days we were just shooting the breeze yes there probably were but were there days where we were talking about have you had trouble with Johnny in your class? Yeah I have I don't know what's going on wonder if he's having some problems at home right now you know so you were talking about students you were talking about approaches and as a first year teacher you don't think that was beneficial to me. I learned a lot right from from more veteran teachers. So I think that's one thing but I think the second part of that is I think sometimes we I don't know if if like our veteran either coaches teachers whatever do maybe there's not as much of a willingness to share you know I I was talking to somebody about this the other day at the high school level I don't think coaches I don't think high school coaches share with each other as much as they should like like I think sometimes it's almost like I got to protect my secrets you know I got to I got to keep those it close right I'm I don't want to give somebody an advantage but at the college level it's not nearly that way. I think the college level people coaches share a lot more and they're willing to grow the game we were just at a shootout this week at Ashland our basketball team went to Ashland University and part of the reason I went to this shootout is how much respect I have for their coach and I don't even know their coach very well John Ellenwood but I had heard him speak at a clinic years ago he's really really good at individual skill development with post players it's a little bit of a lost art right with post guys. Like he's kind of an old school post coach you know and and I was really intrigued with what he had talked about at a clinic but at the time I didn't have a post player we were playing five guards I made a few notes but it didn't really well then a few years later like seven eight years later um five or six years later I guess I had a post player matter of fact I had two and I was going to have to play so I I I was looking I was like gosh I was looking for my notes I couldn't find him I reached out to him not only did he did he send me stuff he sent me videos of him working out players individually I mean how cool was that right I mean I'm getting these videos of him working out his guys and my point to all that is the willingness to share this guy doesn't really know me right that well I reach out to him basically tell him I lost my notes right he could have been like and and and he and he sends me all this stuff and just the willingness to kind of help others get better. There's a f and I'm not going to embarrass somebody saying their name but there's a few high school coaches that come to mind in different sports one in volleyball um another in in basketball that come to mind that have really tried to grow the game by helping younger coaches and I think I think there's a lot to be said for that.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah that's good stuff. And then the second point I wanted to make so again number one we were just talking about never stop learning always growing uh always being uh willing to learn always being willing to give back as you learn and and and and and uh you know bounce ideas off of one another then number two I think has to come back to something we've talked about throughout this show of trust your vision and lead you know it has to be when when it comes time to lead again you have to to be confident that you are in that spot make a decision don't guess like I always say like I hate I hate seeing the hitter in the batter's box in baseball they're up there guessing right you know I mean like you know trust your work and know here here's what here's what I think's the best thing to do here's why let's go you know I mean it's kind of like like to use an example of the Cincinnati Reds you and I were talking earlier this week about how as as our favorite baseball team started to struggle sure they've gone through some injuries and they've gone through some different things but it just seems like about every two or three days they're like okay we'll try these three players and hopefully they get hot and then if they're good they'll stay and if they're bad we'll send them right back down try three other players like at some point at the highest level of baseball there's people that make a lot of Money that are very, very good at their job, you would like to think, or they wouldn't be in that job in the first place of scouting, of you know, um player development and some different things. At some point, you you as a coach have to have a player evaluation that says, Hey, I think these are the best players. Here's why I think they're the best players. We're gonna go with them and and we're gonna put them in the best chance, uh, the best place to be successful and we're gonna move forward. Then after the right amount of time, if that doesn't work, then I'll admit that I'm wrong and we'll move to the next thing. But I think sometimes I see way too many leaders, they don't even give themselves a chance to be right or wrong, right? So, in other words, they're not even giving themselves a chance to be successful because they never truly go all in with, hey, here's what I believe, here's why, let's do it. You see what I'm saying there?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yeah, definitely. It's funny, you know, one of the things I had here in my notes that that I didn't touch on was when we talked about the identity early on in the show, uh it's is the the leadership identity, the identity of the leader, like that, and it's a little bit of that consistency thing you talked about, Shane, of of knowing what to expect. Because when you have a leader that's constantly all over the place, right, it's kind of hard to I think having that consistency that you know, like I the the people I've always enjoyed working for the most are the ones that, or even working with um are the ones that when you show up every day, you just sort of know what you're getting with them, right? Like, hey, this, you know, this this guy here likes to joke around, likes to keep it loose, likes to this guy here is a little bit more by the book, likes to go, you know, boom, boom, boom. Um but imagine showing up and every day it's different, right? That guy that was joking around yesterday is in a terrible mood today, and then the next day he's doing this, and the next day now we're doing this. You'd be all over the place, right? And it's kind of what you're talking about right there. Having some form of a consistent approach, change is necessary. We just talked about that, but when to change and and and you know, is important. Are you changing just for the sake of change? Is it just, you know, like I said earlier, throwing, throwing stuff at a wall and hoping something sticks, or is there some sort of approach and some sort of plan? Because I do think I do think you're right in terms of you know the leadership identity and the leadership consistency um is crucial.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Well, it's good stuff. I I know my my notebook is empty here, and and I just I think I think this is a time of year. I know I know a lot of people that we get feedback from is in education, they're in coaching. So the summer serves as a great time to do this. You know, I I challenge people to become learners, to invest in their craft and continue to do things. You know, we were just talking in Sunday school this morning about how you know you gotta you gotta make time, you know, for the things that are most important to you, right? And and it's one of those things where you hear a lot of people say, Well, I don't have time for that. You know what I mean? Where it's like it's like anything else in terms of of what you carve out the time to do. And and I would challenge leaders here as they go through these summer months. I know a lot of times in the business world, maybe this isn't quote unquote your off season, but I know there's a lot of educators and coaches that that do that, and and the summer offers you a great time to do that. So, Matt, any final thoughts here before I close this out? I thought this was a good show. Hopefully everybody got something out of it. I know I did.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

No, I think we covered everything that that that uh you know I had in my notes and then that we had that we had talked about um just sort of presenting here tonight. I th I think again, sometimes sometimes knowing what to do is knowing what not to do, right? Like recognizing what doesn't work sometimes helps us, you know, put together a plan of what will work. So um, you know, sometimes you kind of reverse engineer that a little bit. So it's like, you know, I think tonight was good just talking about some of these things we've seen that sort of get in the way of success. And uh, you know, obviously, you know, we didn't touch on every single one, but I think some of the ones we touched on hopefully, you know, hopefully gives people something to think about. You know, it's funny when we do this show, when we do this show too, Shane. It's like I'm reminded of a of a teacher that once told me, if you if you can teach it, you really know it. You know what I mean? Like if you've if you're teaching it, if you're teaching it, then then you really know it, or you couldn't teach it. So when we when we do this, you've said a million times on here that it's professional development for us too. Um and so when we do this stuff, it it's uh we're certainly not talking at people like like we're talking with people because it's stuff that that that makes us stop and think, ooh, gosh, maybe we need to do a little bit better job of that too. So it's good for us.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah, again, 82 shows in. Uh if you're if you're new to the show, uh they're all back there. Uh, you know, some of them are are linked to certain time things that maybe happen in the world of sports or the world in general at that time. But I think just about any show um that that you listen to at any time would would certainly have the same type of leadership meaning. Make sure you subscribe to where you get all those. And then I also want to throw out that uh just come to the end of a year with SOSA, Southern Ohio Sports Authority, where John Bruce and I we do SOSA Overtime, and and uh that's over on the SOSA YouTube page. Check that out because John and I talk a lot of things, and we just actually recorded our final SOSA overtime of the year uh to today, and we were talking about the seven divisions that you and I talked about and how it's really helped in a lot of different ways. So a lot of times you get some of those crossover things and some different things there. So encourage people to do that. So on that note, we're gonna get on out of here. Um, again, make sure you subscribe to where you're keeping up with expanding the the zone throughout the summer. Uh, and Matt and I will continue to to come up with topics and throw them out there, and we appreciate your feedback. So for Matt, I'm Shane. So long, everyone.