This week we are joined by Nimo Omer (Gal-Dem), Joseph Oyegoke (Black Economists Network), Henna Shah (#Charitysowhite) and Shirley May (Young Identity) to discuss how Covid-19 is disproportionately affecting black, Asian and minority ethnic people and what economic factors are at play.
welcome to economies We need to swap foot cast Siri's over. The next 12 weeks will be having conversations that bring people together. We're starting their Siris in the middle of a Corona virus pandemic fighter space where communities experts on decision makers come together to talk about the economy. From today's episode will be exploring some of the effects of Cove in 19 on black, Asian and minority ethnic people. Presenting this episode is Sandra Nails
Coolio Well, hello, everybody. I'm excited to be here, man. When I when I got this brief, I was I call this is exciting that I've seen ruble body and I was like, Oh, these people more exciting. So?
So I'm surely may lie in the CEO off a charity call. Young Identity. I work with young people who I want to write.
I'm headed Shell and I am would be organizes only charity. So why campaign and where a grassroots campaign or people who were in the charity sector?
So my name is Joseph or you go OK and I work as an economist at It's the Office for Budget Responsibility.
Hi, I'm Nemo. I'm here affiliated with Gaddum Journalist Latin with that moment and I'm a student. I do freelance journalism. I just started out. So yeah, I'm in my third year of university of the moment. So a lot more coming is like part time work on my student loans. I mean, like, whatever pennies I can get from free Lindsay, my income has been This is remained fairly like part, like losing part time work was really like shit. I was not good. I worked a lot last semester, just in case in terms of like my dissertation and like, if it's things got a bit hectic that I can take a step back from part time work if I wanted Teoh on my student loan pens to cover everything for me. But that's like because I come from disadvantaged background,
I mistreated. Do you get scared about your graduated and everything was going on because within talks, apparently, we're gonna have the worst recession since the 16 hundreds or something crazy like that.
So when I realized what was like the full extent like I think about a few weeks ago, I realized that what was like, really what was going on, and I was like, This is really going to disrupt the economy Ring badly. And I was right. So there's not gonna be a job for me at the end of this. Journalism is already a very precarious sector there already laying off. Journalist. I've got far more experience than me. I was just like I guess, uh, view of panic monsters and beg my university to take me on next year when I'm not really applied for a year. I would say Panic. It I That's it. I guess I'm gonna do one in international security and not sure what that is, but
is that they have a strange time for me because I am a key worker because I work with the civil service. But usually when doing this simple cell, that's your urine back the public sector, your sore thinking. Okay, my page. And there's great as France to their counterparts. Then where this covered like I don't know anything structure in which may be in something might lose their jobs, but it has been like almost to star opposite in there. If you're working in government, you have to go to the most secure at its present moment anyway. So so so strange in that source sense.
Yeah, I think you'd seen this in tow. Miller Joseph's. I think there's a lot of things and commenting on our experiences. I'm quite lucky, either. Campaigner in my day job, not atrocious. So white Labonte's that for another organization. But my pain try and secure with Under through to next year, which is really good. And I'm not gonna get Bono. This is great, but I do worry about people like my parents that my parents are in the same position that I am a house. They work in a look in manufacturing, which deceptive doing. We badly learned like a small company, and actually, that's quite scary. And I feel like there's a weird role of us, and I think that lots of space people have.
I definitely feel that I mean, not that I would job, particularly at the moment, but like in the knowledge that lie, because you have to support myself. I have, like five siblings. Where is my older brother and sister? I kind of find out, but I still have like three youngest in things. Um, my dad works, but my members in, unlike his very precarious he's working with a nice a key worker, but, like it's very precarious. Work has, like, three jobs. It's like this constant thing in the back of my head. Like what? He catches it and then you can't work.
And surely how about you? Do you? How do you deal with yourself at the moment?
So with those we have ah, were no essentially funded by anyone. Um, so we've not got, like, no arts council funded were not what? City council for me. We go oven every bear burning. Ah, grand. We don't have We just don't have Andi. Um, but is saying all about, you know, I'm gonna come from a state point of view. I have faced my accounts, just went off to be ordered to bid were the company. I didn't make it. The company made 100 on day £20,000 for this financial year. So for a company that does not have the bulk of it is and early does not come from lambasts, you know, we don't know, cable way worked like I'm just gonna say it. Black people. Do. You know when I hear you know dad's that I've got impairments. I've got three jobs and that kind of stuff that still goes on to full for myself because quits, Essentially, I turned the freelance business into a business.
Do you feel like your identity, who you are? You braced religion. Do you feel like that? Shape your experience on the economy and how you've grown up involved in the house you see in any way, shape or form.
Yeah, I would say yes. Yeah, of course, I think, Uh, even for me, I always used to say to kids really hard. I need to pick a career. You know, I was listening that, you know, doing any journalism. You don't know whether or not you're gonna get a job. And you do in your your degree and stuff like that. And I can remember leaving after I did a fashion of degree thinking I was gonna be the Latin, you know, the next out? No, Vivienne Westwood with a black version. Andi, you wouldn't I would have never been with me. And I was so stayed. It was unbelievable, but yeah, I had this big vision that that's why we're gonna do go into fashion. Master of the fashion circuit and it was so hard to get a break. It was so hard. When I finished my degree, I couldn't get a job. So I want to see
think that was because of your race or within because because
I think it worked. I think it was racism. I think it waas. I don't think it was anything to do with my ability because I started my own business. Then I can remember my husband saying to me, I was just gonna go and get a random job anywhere and I cleaned for a little while. Eso did this little cleaning job and could a kid straight away when I got married as well on them. Anyway, I don't want you to do anything other than what you've done your degree in, because that's what you did your degree in. Why? Why spend all that time? And in the end, he he he had somebody built me build only acquitting table in the basement legs. Now a bedroom on that was mine source of income, literally stowing in my basement at my ridiculous pains in the night, time to make wedding dresses anything that most people into before you treat
people like you have to work harder than
I want to tell black kids that I would tell anybody cooler. But they should work harder than anybody else. I believe that you should push on what my belief is. Push on through and and when people tell, you know, tell them yes.
I mean, I could nothing about things that should be said of the well. I just think, I mean, when I think of my journey it away and now I mean, though, I can't say things categorically. But economics is a very, very white male space my first acquired in this world. I was the only black person in the in the organization, like one from the second of Universal that we had a dinner Converse Common Enjoyment said. That was quite nice, isn't it? No, it's not essential for that to be the case, but I think it's very important the Romans and seeing people even aspire to be like in the spaces. So I was always very conscious as I was working that apart from maybe the security guard that they passed on the way into the office, I probably the only black person that they have met who was in the condiments. And I felt bad that I now have to almost so dime excellent. Absolutely everything these things will be the case. It's just that covers coming wrong.
If you look at that, a lot of the lobby articles that have been written, like across the board, is amount where you're looking. A lot of the things are cited are like multigenerational households and, you know, cultural reasons. Things that like people around their elders more all these kind of different things that, in my opinion, completely lists big. Let most the biggest point possible, which is that festival. Obviously, he workers are disproportionately being possible, like the less professionalized healthcare workers, as well as nurses and doctors, disproportionately brain as well as bus drivers. Cleaners on a kind of key workers are from our communities, and obviously they have to work in their four or more exposed to it, but also just generally like poverty, lack of disposable income that that leads to like poor health conditions. Health inequalities of massive reason off this because it's like the people who are most wonderful to this of those who have underlying health conditions, and if you live in a food desert if you live in a place that you know if you're a bus driver, for example, where you're sitting for 12 hours a day, you know you're more likely to have heart conditions. You're more likely to have long conditions, not to mention like a lot of the things that people are talking about now, like air pollution in cities like new Children With I'm developed respiratory systems, like all of these things are kind of coming together. Who you with living in these areas, You know, who really in this food, who is who were occupying the spaces and who are in these jobs?
If there's a society where there has been institutional racism for a number of years, even decades, and what you will find is that people from the same community first informers are not gonna be able to get me to the job that they are called. Black people are almost 50% more likely to be on a zero hour contract competitor white counterparts. And so it just goes to show the type of job that, with already mentioned, they're more likely to be involved was which are zero hour contracts and Tim Peters roles are not going to be ableto have. You know well, I'm from own benefits or what he saw. Things rafted down open, and that increases susceptibility to obviously catching the violence. So let me think about that. Yet they think. OK, why are every minorities and overcrowded homes or densely populated areas, of course, and maybe cultural factors? Yes, By the very same time, if your job opportunity use are affected negatively and you can turn it so much as may be under five, then you can purchase a house in the area that you may want. You have to go to the house, get house and everyday is cheaper and people gravitate. It's world of Harry up. And so you know, one time to say is that it's a cycle
people don't really look a how the world would be a calming effect. Spain. People like they do white people. They stone commission research academics didn't think about it, but they think tanks would think about it. It just assume so. It's in lots of self saying lots of vain people passing away because it's covert because we don't get enough coach in India and is that it's a massive thing, and that's while passing away with. Actually, it's a bit more complicated than that. So we've got a position paper on. We've been crowdsourcing intelligence and those of small baby. So you go on, I'm really looking out. So the 1st 1 the abilities like what you did mentioned above all is other kinds of existing conditions and took that I be to you. We got heart disease, but also like access called there, which is what people with benches. Well, the next one is that it's a gorgeous. So the idea of example that kids can't go to school like we know that black boys all ready, underperforming school on that. Actually, people from Bain backgrounds are not gonna have safe learning environments of parents who could help them, said that kind of thing, really looking at like risk of institutions and things like poverty, food, banks, housing on all that stuff from precarious work, people going for low people being made redundant, and they were looking at I four, which is a hostile environment. So thinking about how my workers of access and Teoh bees is also how migrants here about accessing it. It just services and things like how people how people are responding it very in immigration detention So way know that it is still massive detention centers where people have been held against their will and where, actually the Corona virus can spread like wild by right because it's send people in the code space and privacy protection enforcement on oh through that with thinking about like same communities in our interaction with the police. How Bain beautiful away from them, the role of community groups and also things like violence within the home on did how, particularly women. But men as well don't have access insane services white people do on how they might find it difficult to get access to help, but also actually the role that the Bane communities meeting Andi having groups of people, particularly thinking within days, in keeping with the new duties situation safe. I think there are all these are like That's just a really, really rough example what we working across the five areas. But as soon as you start, you can just keep listening ways in which were affected completely differently. Andi. It's completely bonkers that no one saw about this in more detail before.
It is a lot to think about. Miami is not that no one has told by more detail closet the institutional racism that was going on for so many years when a personal call or someone in the bank community does ring off the hospital. Also hospital. Do you think that that person, any seed as not a priority? Because, for example, the young woman that passed away in Peckham she had three Children she had handled the day before? They said, You're not poverty. Why, Jeremy, what in what will be in that decision making, um, what the race thing wanted just because they just didn't see everybody ality
Yeah, I think it's really, really complicated. I think a lot of people, including me, definitely assumption because of the fact that there is a lot of research that vessel like kind of discusses the healthcare biases that exist the fact that black women, um, well, less time like in labor that that were less size. We believed when we say that we're feeling something were more likely to be dismissed, there definitely is like uncle evidence of that. But the same time I think we do need to consider the fact that at this point that the NHS is basically at the bare bones of its existence for after a decade of austerity after, you know, complete cuts to pay after, like doctors and nurses and all health care professionals pretty much are underpaid because of the fact they work so many hours. I think that it would almost do a slight the service to the complexity of what's going on. She kind of not not necessarily assume that this is the thing become sure it did play a role in it, but I think it's a lost things coming together. I think it's us not having that access healthcare for a very long time, very good health care for a very long time. I think it's the biases that we haven't really ever unlearned. I think it's the fact that, like these institutions, that should be incredibly like, you know, well prepared or just not there crumbling on this in this pandemic. They were crumbling anyway.
Yeah, I think that's a brilliant point to make man because they are, they are stretched. So either did you call one to say we did that with this, but that I think it's just It's just one of those things where I think it's a little just as to give it up for me. Unfortunately,
I just want to reiterate that I actually see all of those things that you are talking about in them and this and have experienced in my 57 years on this planet. You know, one of the we talk about what to talk about, Um, you know, black people being on zero hour contracts and big organizations and hospitals not having people in place. But that system, that care system was run down to be sold off. Andi have been numerous. We've seen it on baseball and people that state news or wherever those that are in power are looking to make a profit off. Those who were up the bottom room off things and actually places like hospitals were one of the biggest employers. Off blackness is, um, salaries and all of the m, you know, the jobs that didn't have zero hour contracts that also had protection off holiday pay and all of those things all went under were consecutive conservative governments that have been in on for what purpose? To bail at this stage when something like a pundit Damn, it happens. So you get Germany, who has got more than enough beds, doesn't have to sell them and hospitals or morgues in certain places, because actually, they're looking at How do they best serve their people on? But I would say that in high insight Ah, hoc, that learning in hindsight or Britain is that actually, it needs to look. After all, it's people at whatever levels that Iraq Andi in particular for me, black people who run the NHS when I was a child, I can't tell you how many aunties were nurses. I can't tell you how many how many cousins were midwives on when they retired and went back to back home, and some of them actually where Children being thrown out of the country now because they didn't know that it takes citizenship out when they're supposed to have done in all of that sort is has a massive impact on the death rate. This week alone, I've lost over 10 friends. I've lost 10 people who are not just acquaintances, people who I I eat with who I break bread with all gone and it's all been about economics, you know, been about being on the lowest lowest rung of things. And that's all. It goes back again to the those histories where you know black women know how to bear pain. Blackmon know how to bear pain and that kind of colonial slavery mentality that the overseer has on people you know, wherever you come from, where you are, people of corduroy on the low income, you know how to handle that better than anybody else. But yet you're seeing on Facebook and is the ground. A black woman turned from this map kit, a black woman, be black people being kicked out of their accommodation on somebody trying Teoh to load this virus. The fault of the virus is also asked, that is that when anything goes wrong in every economy, it's never the people who were at the top who are driving these kind of agendas. It's never then is always the scapegoat. It's always a person who, actually because off mental health, because of conditions because of the way the living there about you going, give up. I'm not gonna fight when my goal mother in law was talking to me. I said a petition came out about that law that's come out that said, We don't have tohave. You don't have to go to a car in this court, your autopsies in American, you don't have to. The police conduce this, they can do that can do the other. I know that I'm looking down at my civil servant, but that law has been post through right now. But all of this stuff can go on on what's the agenda behind it? You know, it feels like Britain is trying to become a police state on even put more controlled on its people. On I went, Did you sign that potential? I didn't even know there was one. And it's how do we get that information out for people toe actually object to the conditions that we live in on what was to continue to fight again? I'm gonna bring up Libya, and then I'll shut up because I'm going on with myself. A What was happening with Libya and black men going into slavery and limb? Leah. I went on to the administration's I didn't organize it, but when on them and I hope to continue to support them, and then it dissipated. Having the staying power and the longevity to campaign for change on, to stick with it until the change happens ought to create change in our own communities and saying it looks enough by creating employment for one another.
Yeah, that leaves mental what we're gonna ask us, love. What do we think can be done? Easy campaigning. Is it protest? It is a building often taking over these institutions and then changing it from the that way. What can be done about the fact that so many people are contracting this virus in the same community?
We have to state government enquiries to the Ingersoll Grenfell's. You know, that inquiry came out and who has been held accountable. Where? What? You know what's happening. What what justice has been served. The Chilcot inquiry about the Iraq war? What's going on? I think it's very difficult. Teoh allow an institution to investigate itself. I think that's kind of Andi. Expect being in jail or, you know, to expect people to be held accountable, and it's kind of put themselves up in your problems because I don't think that that's ever been their desire. I think what they desire is to kind of mitigate any further criticism to be let. Look, we're doing some. We will be looking towards for justice. Who are we looking towards for? What do we want for our for ourselves on Dwork we get it from, and I think it's really difficult to try and find it from institutions that have been so violent to black and brown bodies for so long. I think it's almost for me. It seemed almost fanciful that anything is going to come from this, even though I'm an optimist.
So window US lessons learned with you. Okay, you have identified that within the own officer, whatever man been. I think the report will always try and hard knocks acknowledge. And there was in a systematic discrimination towards a particular people who was actually Andi. Okay, came out Whenever Did you ask the question? What's gonna happen? Because people's lives have been calling really changed or ruined as
they know. Not discrimination, ready
system. Exactly. And and that's the thing. That's where it is clear racism. But I felt that almost they were trying to shy away from using any use of words almost incriminate optical department. And I think that it's a front, an example off the way things are. Yes, you have a real some of you on the view but stands identity features on the argument you guys have said is like There's no one solution to this I simplify with as a mystic argument as well, because, yeah, it's when you see this going for centuries and centuries, you have to wonder what thing or things will help to improve the situation at the same time. I just do think that if there are and this it seems or force, you know, continue to the Duthie, screams, rally around them and try to effect change. So I guess my sample is less comes to to work hard to create things that would hopefully can be used.
These hopeful partly thanks. Oh, people respect paying people for being doctors and nurses and care workers and working supermarkets and do the cleaning and all that stuff. But I do have the pessimism that actually will probably go back to the way it was previously a baby. Worse. I think we'll see like we talked a lot about our past experiences on. We know that my parents, their parents, had even worse. We went back and the sixties and the seventies, how hard people found it trying to find jobs.
So I think if we look it, for example, Piers Morgan about it was their eyes holding the Goldman Teoh taking him to task, do everything really needs to do is look like that and really like respecting the NHS and being a we need to do more for the NHS, even though we are more used to Piers Morgan of like, you know, super controversial right wing populist, quite annoying. That's what we used to. And I think a lot of people are like, Well, what does this meat? But I dont and trying to grapple with the contradiction of this Piers Morgan, who's pulling people accountable in this Piers Morgan, who's this populist right wing? Uh, you know, person and I think that this is a contradiction. I think that's the future, what we're going to see. We're going to see this like you, said Hannah. This retreat into this tribalism and it's nationalism of this old Britannia of you know, we we love the NHS as a an institution of like, you know what this is what Britain is, is all it means to be British. It's the NHS. But it also I think, will be a retreat into social conservatism of this idea that like, um you know, But it's for us, is for us Brits. It's for even the idea of my wind Russia lessons learned. We always saying that racism is an aberration are not a part of the system, a non palm ICTY. This inherent thing that is part of person. We've never dealt with the history you've never dealt with it, it's always been were moving on. From what? How? Show me, Show me how on it's like That's something we've never actually dealt with. And the fact that we constantly try and and I like would risk passing by accident. Sorry that we deported people today. That's Oh, I'm sorry that we did this. I'm sorry that we did not. These things a constant aberrations are not who we are.
I want individual limo album. Is the media publication committed to telling the stories of women and non binding every people of cola? You pointed out that the journalistic landscape is 94% white People who
talk senior when it is on those people who are, you know, presenting use. Not all those people who are doing all these The biggest roles in the industry majority come from the exact same institutions in the same way that we talked about government is being, you know, they've been propelled into this from the beginning. Journalism is very much the same. And so what? When we see that we miss story is like when we like There is one perspective. There is only one voice the and that pulls. Even if they are looking straight at something, they just won't see it because it's never been there. Truth, it's never been in their experience. They would never have to know, said They've never had to see it. And so why would they speak about it? And for the most part, most of them usually are too scared to speak about it anyway because they could get it horribly wrong. Andi, that's the thing. But because of that fed, it didn't don't talk about it all, which Logan life it could prefers him talking about it really badly very
quickly. You than a girl thing. Question how younger than he is an arts charity in Manchester. It runs poetry and spoken word workshops for young people. How do you think? How have you experienced any issues in the arts and culture? More broadly,
it has been difficult to get those organizations to give us the money. You know, a couple of weeks ago, we what we have gone in for a particular grant on their, um, on my board of trustees. We have one of our young people who is no also aji with fellow. She was asked to respond. Teoh, how do we show our impact in the world? We go into schools and we'll do an assembly that's got 1000 young people, you know, the holds the whole schools in the assembly and you asking me about impact. But I wish I had the infrastructure toe. Have somebody sat there just typing about my impact. But I'm so busy doing the work to make an impact so that actually those young people that you you deem unsuitable for university actually look at it as an opportunity. And that's not just factual. Then that's, you know, young white working class boys I've got something about the moment that is about people responding to giving those donations on the young white guy on there. But he goes, Jordan, anyone it surely may or this organization would you hear people that we wouldn't get an opportunity to have a voice beach? And that's how a lot of working on a white woman, thank
you everyone for joining the money it's been is an absolute pleasure. Time We all share where people can find work for people following give you in Charlie joining
eso You can find me the girl that dreams on Twitter. If you find young identity, you find me.
So I had to Charlotte people. It is not a very pretty model, but part of the campaign bubble Put in actuality, said White. We have a website on, but you can download the paper. Please do that by me on Twitter,
just like end up memes. Agents of N i m s r a d And, um, yeah, that's where most my journalism is.
The Economist Network has its own Twitter page and Instagram base of the Black Ikhwan. On consistent also have ah gmo for any enquiries where members going to sign up for a while. The black equal in their work.
Perfect guy. Thank people door. They need an absolute pleasure.
That's it for this week's installment of We Need to Talk a special thanks to all our participants. If you've enjoyed this episode, follow us on Twitter at economy asks. We would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on the matters discussed. So do you use the hash tags? We need to talk in Covidien policy. My name is Abdul Media Until next time Goodbye.