Shades & Layers
Shades and Layers is a podcast focused on black women entrepreneurs from across the globe. It is a platform for exploring issues and challenges around business ownership, representation and holistic discussions about the meaning of sustainability in an increasingly complex global context. Conversations are wide- ranging and serve not only as a Masterclass in Entrepreneurship but also provide wisdom and tools for Successful Living. It is a space for meaningful conversation, a place for black and other women of color to be fully human and openly share their quirks and vulnerabilities.
Guests include prominent figurers in the beauty, fashion and wellness industries both in the Northern Hemisphere and the Global South.
Dr. Theo Mothoa-Frendo of USO Skincare discusses her journey from being product junkie to creating an African science-based skincare range. Taryn Gill of The Perfect Hair is a brand development whizz who discusses supply chain and distribution of her haircare brands. Katonya Breux discusses melanin and sunscreen and how she addresses the needs of a range of skin tones with her Unsun Cosmetics products.
We discuss inclusion in the wellness industry with Helen Rose Skincare and Yoga and Nectarines Founder , Day Bibb. Abiola Akani emphasizes non-performance in yoga with her IYA Wellness brand and Anesu Mbizho shares her journey to yoga and the ecosystem she's created through her business The Nest Space.
Fashion is all about handmade, custom made and circular production with featured guests like fashion designer Maria McCloy of Maria McCloy Accessories; Founder and textile/homeware designer Nkuli Mlangeni Berg of The Ninevites as well as Candice Lawrence, founder of the lighting design company Modern Gesture. These are just a few the conversations on the podcast over the past three years.
Shades & Layers
Sabbatical: The True Cost of Success with Karabo Lediga (S9, E9)
What happens when the dream your mother sacrificed everything for becomes your personal nightmare? Johannesburg-based filmmaker Karabo Lediga joins us to explore this haunting question through her debut feature film "Sabbatical" – a raw, honest portrayal of mother-daughter relationships in post-apartheid South Africa.
A 30-something year old woman called Lesego, is the compelling main character of this story. She is forced to return to her childhood home in the township in Pretoria after a professional downfall. While living in her mother's house, she has to reckon with having become alien to her own mother, how her Model C school experience has facilitated the fragility of that relationship, and the psychological cost of having being thrown in all-white spaces in order to achieve the success or dreams that parents desperately want for their children.
Our conversation ventures beyond the film into Karabo's amazing film and television career. Her credits include Netflix's "Queen Sono" and the touching short film "What Did You Dream?" that was inspired by her own grandmother's story. Karabo shares invaluable insights about sustaining a creative career in South Africa's evolving film landscape. Bonus: she shares the different funding mechanisms available to South African filmmakers—a system that is relatively unique to the country—and her commitment to authentic storytelling despite industry pressures.
Sabbatical is a much needed voice from South Africa's so-called born free generation. It's entertaining, it offers deep cultural insights and serves as an amazing showcase of Karabo's unique voice. Whether you're a film enthusiast, a creative professional, or someone navigating complex family dynamics, Karabo's perspectives will resonate long after the credits roll.
LINKS AND MENTIONS
Model C - Formerly whites-only public schools that were desegregated after Apartheid.
Matwetwe - seminal film of the film production house Diprente, who collaborated with Karabo on Sabbatical.
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People are really happy to see themselves on screen. That's what they say and it's not the particular experience of Leseho and her kind of upbringing, but it's just generally seeing South African cues, nuances, subtleties, you know.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to Shades and Layers. I'm your host, kuponus Kosana-Ritchie. Today we get to explore the film industry with Johannesburg-based award-winning writer, producer and director, karabo Lidija. Her credits include Netflix's Queen Sono and the short film she wrote and directed, what Did you Dream? Based on her own grandmother's life. Karabo is currently promoting Sabbatical, her debut feature film. So congratulations, karabo. It is in cinemas right now in South Africa. It is a love letter to mothers and daughters. The story of the main character and her mother has sparked a lot of discussion about the Ansburken truths that shape these mother-daughter dynamics in post-apartheid South Africa. In our sit-down we get to the notion of success as it is portrayed in the film, how it's defined and what it truly costs to have it. We also discuss film and television business models, as well as Karabu's career trajectory. We also discuss film and television business models, as well as Karababo's career trajectory as a professional in the industry. Let's get into it, friends. Here's Karabo Lidija. Can you introduce yourself? What you do for a living and what your latest project is?
Speaker 1:So my name is Karabo Lidija. I am a writer and director both for television and film, and I'm based in South Africa, in Johannesburg. My latest offering is my debut feature film, and it's titled Sabbatical.
Speaker 2:Great Congratulations on your debut feature. How does it feel?
Speaker 1:I feel very exposed, like I'm walking around naked and I'm on camera and people are like can see my body parts. I feel very exposed because I get personal work and all work is personal, you know it just encourages a lot of personal questions that when one makes the work, you know you don't really anticipate until you kind of release the work Until it's out there.
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like those, but a lot of affirmations because a lot of you know people seem to react quite positively to the work.
Speaker 2:I'll take that out you know yeah, so tell me, yes, what is Sabbatical about?
Speaker 1:Sabbatical is a film about Lisekojo. She's in her mid-30s when it begins. She's uh waking up from a blackout. She's clearly had a very long night of drinking, or whatever she was doing. She's peed the bed, she's vomited on the pillow. She wakes up from darkness, um looks around and realizes that she's in her childhood bedroom, which has really been transformed by her very controlling mom. It's like it's got all the frills and the doilies, you know, and she realizes that she somehow um arrived home. Whatever called her there. When she tries to leave, she realizes that all her bank accounts have been suspended or frozen and she can't really tell her mother, who's obviously has a lot of questions um that she doesn't quite voice, she can't tell her that she's in really big trouble at this big kind of bank where she works in job in joburg.
Speaker 1:Um, I guess her mom really worked hard to get her where she is, you know to suppose her private boy and it's a big deal for her to not be of this old world but to be on a pedestal somewhere in kind of northern Johannesburg suburbs. And now the truth of her failure and, I guess, unwellness, spiritually and mentally, that opening scene had me so anxious.
Speaker 1:Anxiety is a good, it's a good feeling. I was really trying to to channel anxiety, you know, in me because I have it a lot, and I was like, how do I play around with just the feeling of anxiety, yeah, all the time, almost like borrowing from horror, um, but yeah, basically that's that. So the whole film is like the relationship with mother and daughter kind of being rebirthed into something maybe honest, um, and a little darker, you know yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen many film like this coming out of south africa. I mean, it's a, it's something that's been well at least on mind, because I can relate to the experience, having been to multiracial or Model C schools, and I haven't seen it portrayed on screen. So I mean, what's the reception been like?
Speaker 1:Very similar to your school journal. People are, which I didn't really expect. People are really happy to see themselves on screen. That's what they say and it's. It's not the particular experience of leseho and her kind of upbringing and the model c kind of you know experience, but it's just generally seeing south african cues, nuances, subtleties, you know, mother and daughter, that respect and the untruths and the truths you know, and just the quote. A lot of people react quite strongly to it because it's quite, they say it's truthful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's very similar to you, yeah yeah, it is quite truthful that whole idea that you know there are things you cannot say uh in. You know, in certain spaces, I mean, she still hides the fact that she smokes from her mother, let alone that she's an and it's a relatable experience for any south african woman because there's because I was thinking about I really liked um american indie films.
Speaker 1:You know, as I was growing up I was like, oh, little miss sunshine, all these character studies. You know it seems like quite indulgent to to focus on small moments and not like really big turning points or events in the film and I really wanted to do that, you know.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I thought something like Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird or whatever, which is a great mother and daughter. But in this instance you can say, mom, I hate you and bang the door. You can't say, mom, what you? You know what I mean, so I wanted to play around with just like being african and respect your elders and yeah secrecy and you know lack of truth as well, honesty as well.
Speaker 2:You know play around with with that as well, yeah, but also the whole idea of being worlds apart, right, I mean they live in two different worlds, like and you see that a lot, especially, you know, when you've had a parent who sacrificed everything to send their child to get better education so-called better education. But you know, yeah, I mean tell me about that dynamic and how it comes across in the film.
Speaker 1:So I was very interested in my mother's generation and mine. You know she grew up like fully in apartheid. I think she was born the same year as apartheid, 1948. Her entire life is literally dictated by the system. You know she can't really do what she wants to be. You know in simple terms. But she couldn't really fulfill any dreams she had. She didn't even have the freedom to dream. You know, in simple terms, but she couldn't really fulfill any dreams she had. She didn't even have the freedom to dream, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And she kind of poured all of this kind of hope and opportunity into her children. You know, and I was thinking about parents who couldn't be what their children can be, go where their children can go, like travel things, like New York I was in Amsterdamrica for two days whatever for them it's, it's literally a dream come true because they couldn't be those things, you know. But the dream is it's a rotten dream, it's like a fallacy, because a lot of us are a few, you know, the only few people who can fit into this world into white school corporate South Africa.
Speaker 1:It's, it's. There's no fit. You have to be something else to fit in. There's a sickness in it. You know you, you can't really be yourself. It doesn't allow you to be, because you know then it wouldn't be the system, that then you'd be taking it all changing it, it wouldn't work. And I think parents are quite they they don't, maybe they don't, maybe they understand, but they don't want to verbalize how brutal the success is, especially when the majority are still living under such poverty. You know and lack of access.
Speaker 1:There's only a few of us that are special, so I think it's difficult for parents to admit that it doesn't work, you know yeah. That the dream doesn't work. Yeah, and then I thought also parents wanted us to be successful. As a result, we became other.
Speaker 2:Alienated.
Speaker 1:Exactly, we became alien, yeah yeah, we became alienated, but alien to them. There was an instant culture clash, clash. I was like my mom and I live in two different cultures, you know sure and my mom is great because she's quite progressive, so she leans in into my world. You know, I try to lean into hers but you know, maybe 10 years ago it wasn't so it was very like there was a lot of conflict and friction, you know it's a journey.
Speaker 2:It's a journey, yeah so's a journey, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I thought, wow, this gap and this particular gap, my generation and my mother's, you know. I think it gets you know a little bit easier in inverted commas, you know, the younger people are, but I feel like there's such a stark difference in the way we grew up and I was interested in exploring that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also liked the way you explored the I mean not only the alien alienness of, you know, coming back home to your mother, but also your neighbors, you know, who didn't have the same experience or upbringing as you. It's just like this clash of worlds where El Esejo, particularly, is trying to relate to the next door neighbors. You know, she was friends with the girl who lived next door and now actually, funny enough, she relates more to the daughter who is?
Speaker 2:to the daughter, to the neighbor, truly. So that was, that was quite interesting, that you know that alien experience is almost being gapped. Sorry, that gap is being closed by the younger generation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely and with God Gets. I wanted to the next Donate. I really wanted to explore and it's like it's a problematic thing because when there's no choice, you know, did she have a choice to pursue what Lissiho pursued or not? Or did she choose this life? You know, because I want to explore contentment, that there's no failure in this woman, that she's quite content in her, her life, her family. She's not. She, she's not hasn't failed in a way where perhaps truly would see it as failure and Lissiho would see it as failure. You know, yeah, I feel like she's. She's much more mellow, she doesn't have the anxiety that Lissiho has and she's not chasing the thing that Lissiho has.
Speaker 1:I found that interesting that there's always a portrayal of people back home having having kind of fallen off or you know, being disadvantaged or being or wanting more, you know, and I wanted to explore this woman like as a full character, who's quite content and having a really good time.
Speaker 2:I know she's just like God, there's freedom. You're like, oh my gosh, she's playing gigs.
Speaker 1:She's just living her best life you know doing hair, she's in love. Oh my gosh life.
Speaker 2:You know doing hair, she's in love. Oh my gosh, there's a freedom that comes with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so. I mean, I can only imagine that. You drew from personal experience. But you know what kind of research did you do for and, and you know how did that look for you, how did that process look for you?
Speaker 1:I was interested in and I had a kind of like a personal conflict in displaying kind of black women characters, african characters who are dabbling in crime or whatever, like some, that kind of sinister thing. I didn't want kind of like a negative stereotype or representation, but I wanted Lissihua to have really fallen in a shameful way, you know, and something that kind of gave her agency. You know, and something that kind of gave her agency, you know she was chasing something and she pushed too far. Whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So I wanted to have agency so that when Doris, whatever deals with this idea, it really kind of hits his heart. It can't just be oh, she was let go, whatever it had to be something that she did that brings shame, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I know how complicated it is with these cases and I read up a lot on them Black women who are kind of catapulted to these leadership positions and are somehow embroiled in, whether true or not, but literally thrown under the bus because they become the scapegoats no matter who's involved. It's always this black woman, and there's a list of them.
Speaker 2:So I went to PWCc. All the cases that you know corporate yeah and a lot of them.
Speaker 1:They're lots, they're lots, they're lots. Um, so I yeah, I just kind of obsessively read up on the cases. A lot of them kind of speak up, later become whistleblowers. Some wrote, write a book, you know, some are completely, they vanish and or that they move home and, you know, never can be employed. So I did a lot of that research and then I did, I read a lot on just like mental health in corporate South Africa yeah, that is a under explored yeah yeah, so I read a lot of papers.
Speaker 1:There are a lot of kind of papers about stress, some a book or two, you know. So I kind of because I'm a research brain I focused a lot on on that.
Speaker 2:Everything else was, yeah, pretty much drawn from the personal yeah, and speaking of the writing process, did you have a writer's room? You know what. What happened there and how long did it take you?
Speaker 1:like I like this. Uh, how long did it take you? Because I've always heard like writers say it was a 10-year project or a six-year project. In truth, we you know how much of the years. How much were you writing in those years? Right, I think it came. I remember it, not not a lot. It came to me. I don't remember the genesis of it, but I think it came to me because I had like really extensive surgery and I had to go home to recover for six weeks and my mom had to take care of me because there was no one here. Everybody I partied with was kind of like too young, whatever, there was no home.
Speaker 1:So I went home and my mom is a nurse, so she's great at that, maybe too great, maybe like, and there's like this kind of idea of you know people will heal you. So there's always like too many visitors. I'm like, lady, I just want a nap. I'm like, oh. And then there's like she's juicing in an incredible way, so like I'd take pictures of her. She'd be on her way to work and she'd be like bringing these juices, I'd have pineapple and this and that, and I was like yo, give me a kiss, and then there'd be nobody calling before they arrived. It's like we've arrived. I'm like yo, oh my gosh. And then she'd call you to come see them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, my, oh, my gosh oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it from I think it came and I think I was in and out of whatever. It is pain medication, whatever, so it was kind of like a dream or whatever nightmarish. You know, I'm like, this lady loves me.
Speaker 1:This is love, but it's like, literally like it's love it was like crazy love, and I think in that moment she was obviously very worried about me, so she overdid whatever she would normally do, you know. So the idea came from that and it became a short film I pitched. I remember I pitched it to some NMVF women's filmmaker Slade and the one of the execs at N? Nvf was like if you have a problem with your mother, I think you should deal with this in therapy. So that's what it is. I was like, oh okay, so I left it for long and then that was probably at maybe 2080 or 3060, I don't remember yeah, probably 2060, and then I wanted to make it into a future film.
Speaker 1:I think I was bored and I started writing it out.
Speaker 1:So no, no writer's room, just going into labs, I guess right because I went to the Toronto film lab and another kind of French lab with a full script. But what I believe in is because I wanted to kind of feedback, especially from, like a global audience. Don't know why, it's an affirmation problem, um, but I also kind of send it around for feedback, but it's just all me, but I do send it around for feedback here right, right and uh, speaking of uh labs, uh, did you raise funding through that?
Speaker 2:uh to through those connections, you know how. How did you finance it?
Speaker 1:um. So the sabbatical is a part of a slate of four feature films from different it's. It's kind of funded as like a business model. You know um pre sold here, um, just sub-saharan region with kind of festival potential and kind of recouping with sales around the world. It's like a business model. Not every film is the same. They're all kind of voice work, kind of films, an attempt to go back to cinema post-covid, after matreto and them you know, right.
Speaker 1:So I I arrived to them after the lab. They knew that because it's my brother and my sister-in-law, tamsin Anderson and Gahiso Didiha. They knew that I'd been working on it and they wanted to make it part of the slate because it was quite ready, right. So it became part of a slate of four. The next one is Gahiso's form as well, and there are two more. So, yeah, it's funded part rebate, part South African kind of funding per estate or grant, part pre-sale to a licensed thing and part private funding. So, no, no, no, yeah, no labs, no, yeah, no labs. I'm finding that, applying to international film festival stuff, it's not doing well for this film and it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:That's odd.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a specific story I would expect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so not to yeah sound I don't know negative, but yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2:It's not yeah, so that's interesting to me, but you know yeah yeah, what do you think the taste you know for film from south africa looks like is? Are they more interested in documentary or you know? I mean, this is like kind of a document of sorts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, right, it's like definitely archiving of culture and a time for sure, I don't know, I mean I don't want to get into trouble and never get into people again, but I think there is a certain gaze that African films have. You know, I think people are used to a certain type of even look and feel and style and kind of, most importantly, subject matter. You know, I don't know, I do think this is not a regular kind of offering from here in terms of film festivals at all.
Speaker 2:yeah, and how has the streaming, you know services, arrival of streaming services, served the market in general? For, you know, filmmakers such as yourself?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I. So we worked on Queen Sono and we being the brand day who produced and also people that I work with all the time because it's my brother and my sister-in-law so we worked on Queen Sono, which was the first African original.
Speaker 2:I loved it.
Speaker 1:I was so sad when it didn't come back.
Speaker 2:I know we're all very sad.
Speaker 1:Because we're always trying to push something new, like just new representation stuff. You know, I also really liked it and we had really cool ideas for, you know, more seasons for Queen S, queen sono, so that and and it launched. It started streaming in february 2020. I think that was probably the last big event before covid hit and we had for a long time.
Speaker 1:So that made cinema well disappear, we can argue even until now. So it opened up a lot of opportunity to to also meet, because once queen sona was streaming around the world, people were interested in south africa. So we had a lot of meetings for other projects, meetings as a writer, because you know you can't go to hollywood, people are in their house so you could. It just really opened up opportunities for general meetings and you know the idea of an agent who's based in the us or whatever. So I think that's because of streaming, because it's so instant, like the distribution, so wide and it's you just never know where it's gonna pop. It could be malaysia, it could be. So every time you're writing we're always thinking about this granny in malaysia. Will she understand? Whatever? So it's only like because that's true, but as a result it kind of suffocates the rest of the industry and the the entire model, you know right, right, yeah, yeah because yeah, so so there's a.
Speaker 1:There's a win and a loss. I'm I've also been interested in licensing to to streamers as well, as opposed to kind of collaborating with them for original content. I feel like it should be a mix, so coped up, licensing and then originals working with them. It's done a lot for the industry, but I feel like we always need that diversity.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, you can't just have one model for the entire industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah, so that. That's a that. Yeah, the entire industry. Yeah, exactly yeah, so that that's a that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a problem, yeah yeah hey, it's shades and layers. With today's guest, karabuli diha, we are discussing her debut feature film, sabbatical, which I absolutely love and recommend, and also talking about how she built her career in the film industry. Up next, we discuss the cast energy on set and also how the film industry Up. Next, we discuss the cast energy on set and also how the film has been received so far. So did you see a lot of mom and daughter you know pairs attending the premiere of Sabbatical.
Speaker 1:That thing was very strange for me, because I didn't, because we premiered at Rotterdam Film Festival and there it's like such, it's a festival, you know, yeah, sure, like a world premiere.
Speaker 2:That's interesting, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's very like toned down. It's maybe your programmer, one person for the festival, the lead, the producer. There's not much drama happening, there's literally nobody outside. You walk in, you watch the film and you talk about the film. So I didn't't in my head, I didn't anticipate press, I didn't anticipate. I feel so naive. So as soon as I was like waiting for us to go watch the film because I made a film for you to watch and then tell people and then I was like, oh my gosh, so I saw nobody. I saw one or two. I thought I'd ask them how it went.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wanted to know about the drama, whatever, but no, there were many. I know there were many, but I didn't see them. I hear they were there, yeah. Yeah, great, but it would be interesting to kind of delve into that, because I was trying to make this experiment to see, yeah, like black mothers and daughters watching this.
Speaker 2:I mean, I could imagine, I could imagine doing that. You know, it's also like such an unusual thing taking your mom to the cinema, like it's not something that you think of, right, I know, but I was like what, what I was like, oh, but in my idealistic way and I work with idealistic people, you know, oh, we can push this.
Speaker 1:take your mother to, you know, to the cinema, and I think nobody thinks about I mean in America and everywhere else they'll think about making films for, like, the older female audience whatever it is. Diane Keaton stars in something whatever.
Speaker 2:Right, right and here, like people just disappear. You don't even see the old ladies on screen, right.
Speaker 1:On screen. I'm just like how guys?
Speaker 2:like, like, how do you? And also, as I grow older, I'm like am I disappearing as like a target?
Speaker 1:absolutely, absolutely, it's a consideration, interest in yeah, in kind of making people exist. But how could it be normal to go to the cinema with your mom when there's nothing really to watch with her? What would you watch?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I wouldn't even think of it.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's some content which is like I, I'm not coming to with my mom to come and watch this because I was sitting with my, my mom, who, as you can imagine, has been in the cinema many times, you know, and she's very vocal. The thing that she she reacted more to wasn't anything else. It's like she was the smoking got to her. She was like yo, oh gosh, it's a thing. It's a thing I was like, okay, this is very effective, because I like that it gets to them, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's who she is. You don't want to see it and you will see it. She's like she's got eyes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, will see it. She's like she's got a vice. Yeah, a smoking girl, oh, but the drunken scene where she's with those guys and she doesn't even know what she's drinking oh my gosh, honestly, my anxiety was really really high watching Leseho. She's like this girl has no sense of self-preservation everybody's like, even on set.
Speaker 1:Even I got annoyed. On set I was like you know what? Let's say enough. Let's say you've got it too like I'm like. Let's say oh man, enough, you know I. I felt, even on set people were just like yo. Let's see this girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what a great lead character. Mona was so amazing. Yeah, but the entire cast, I mean, I was really, really believing. I even took Loiso seriously for once. Oh good, some people.
Speaker 1:I was like that's a huge gamble because I wanted to. It was a huge gamble for me because I was like I don't want to, I don't want laughter to come out. I was like, but why not? I wanted it to be on the verge. You know that if you know, if you know him, you'll be like. But but I wanted it to because, also, he's so huge. I thought that was funny as well yeah, so. I'm like I'm playing yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I wanted him to be imposing in the small world, and I think he did really well yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But let's talk about your career and its trajectory. First of all, how you got into this business and you know, kind of address the deeper meaning you attached to your activities when you said, okay, this is what I want to do with my life and I'm going for it.
Speaker 1:I've always, I don't know, and maybe it's. I don't think I've ever articulated this before because I feel like I had a little bit of a traumatic upbringing, as we all did, growing up where we were at the time. We grew up but my parents got divorced I think I was 11. It was quite a before that. Building up to it, it wasn't a fun time. Sometimes, I think I only now in therapy I'm like, oh shoot, I'm remembering what I kind of numbed or kind of locked away, but I think I escaped in story and writing stuff or you know, I think that was my escape and fantasy.
Speaker 1:So I have like this thing of kind of going to a better place. I'll be like, oh my gosh, now I'm in Italy. Oh no, I don't like Italy, I'm in Barcelona. Um, you know, I'm like, and then I had to like come back. This is a coping mechanism. This is not and there's some heartbreak and going into fantasy when it's a coping mechanism where you're like running away from pain. You know, I have a very low threshold for pain that I'm trying to fix, you know. But I realized there's kind of something amazing about being able to dream and fantasize and that I can channel into storytelling. So it's almost like my, my Achilles heel became my, also my power, that right, if I focus well, that I can kind of dream up story in a way that's healthy, productive. And I'm only realizing this now. But I've always kind of told stories to myself to make the world better or feel better or less painful. Yeah so, but when I?
Speaker 1:because I was really good at math and science, so I was going to study mechanical engineering, which I did- for a year in cape town and my mom was like why you're always writing songs for us, you're always telling us stories, you always write mom power to you, but not you. And my brother was already at uct doing drama, so you can imagine he was just like we're cool people, we're're not engineers. You know, he had a nightmare that I'd be. I'd have 10 babies in such a group.
Speaker 2:I don't know where this comes from oh my gosh, he had never I don't know.
Speaker 1:He's just like I guess it's escape. He's like we can't be people we got to. So he was very much wanting Cape Town. My mom must know that he'll take care of me in Cape Town. So I decided on engineering, but at least I'd be there, you know.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But he and my mom really really pushed me to try something else and at the time I was like I don't really like this engineering, I don't like these people. It was very male.
Speaker 2:Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I was just thinking Cape Town engineering.
Speaker 1:Maybe, Vets would have been different, but Cape Town, I think so, yeah, I think I was being called Boki Boki and then I was like, oh my God, no, and I was imagining three more years of this or whatever in my life and I was like I was going to be unhappy. So I went to a fair and a career fair and there was a course, a new course film media studies at UCT that I applied to and that was the thing. I guess, yeah, it's just honoring who I am, with the help of the people who love me?
Speaker 2:I guess, yeah, and this storytelling thing, you know, do you think it's something that runs in the family? I mean, I know it was your escape. Where did it come from? Or it's just something you worked on?
Speaker 1:So my maternal grandmother. She has more, more names. I made a short film about her in her honor, called what did you dream? And I often thought, wow, what a great hero like and not like nelson mandela or just anybody else that's in the books or in the media, whatever I was like, but we had heroes. You know, she made in a tough time, she made with very little, she made life so soft and magical and it was story really. And the what did you dream was about five feet, or muchina as we called it in pretoria, how she played it. Only later I was like, oh shoot, she was playing it to buy bread and stuff, but she made it like fantasy thing. You know how they ask us what did you dream? And then you have to like weave these stories and then she'd be like that's number seven, oh Kuku.
Speaker 1:Kuku was like got you, yes, daddy, and then you get the treat. So that was kind of the film, the basis of the film. But she also told all sorts of stories with song and stuff and all the cousins would be there, either as holidays or the ones that lived there. So it's quite magical and kuku's kind of kitchen is the one that's in the pure monatish. That's the one where, yeah, okay, I feel like my mom says my paternal grandfather, who was like a really great Presbyterian. Yeah, yeah, she says he, he is the storyteller.
Speaker 2:I can imagine I mean preacher man.
Speaker 1:Hey, yeah, and my mom is like a great storyteller. Sometimes I'm like no lady, that's not how it's happening. You know, when your mom, when people come, the no, no, I'm always like that lady and it's very much performative. You know, when your mom, when people come, the pitch is like higher, I'm like calm down, you know.
Speaker 2:But my mom is very yeah she's let's not lady. Very, very nice and you get into this space. You took an education in this, but you know what tools, which people are helping you on your journey to make this a reality.
Speaker 1:So I think what helped me the most was starting off as a researcher, because I worked as a researcher for all sorts of things, you know Right. And I guess I was a good researcher because I had a good story brain. But I kind of hid in research because I was afraid of the writing. So it took me a long time to be a writer. But I was mostly a researcher. I worked on Take Five five. I knew everything about hiv, aids, I know everything about prep, I know everything. So I know things about escom, how lights work, because I worked on game shows and you know all sorts of stuff. So I feel like the researcher brain really made my story brain so much stronger. You know, um, sometimes people will be like don't start with research because that will limit you, start with story and go crazy and then come back and make it believable, yeah, but I find that difficult.
Speaker 1:I feel like research is a great start. So that's, that's been great, and I'm very lucky to have been in comedy, because it's a very unserious space, you know it doesn't, and it's very welcoming. It's all sorts of you. You could be a banker now you're a stand-up comedian, you're a doctor, like. So it's a very liberal space and doesn't have the pressure of fame. In that way, it's like they laugh at you. You're famous because they laughed at you, which is such a great thing. It's not because you are gorgeous or you want to right yeah and it's like, it's almost like a convention of crazies.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, that you you build with and you build a tone and kind of community with. And it's so open that I I was a writer and then I learned how to direct and sketch because, uh, we worked with on the bunch hour with brahima, which is like, wow he was, he's like he was a co-presenter with carrizo. He's like he's there, oh my gosh, with the band, yeah, you can imagine. So I'm in the writing room with brahu and he's like, do you know when I was, whatever? Then we are kind of brainstorming sketches and kind of monologues for this late night news show, which is brilliant.
Speaker 1:Brilliant yeah, and it was and with sketch we come up with all sorts of things. You know, like some like there's a haunting in the house and there's some comedy twist to it, and that's like the satirical thing. As a director, I have to learn how to work with horror now, or there's like an action scene chasing the maguinha thief or whatever. I have to learn how to do a chase sequence. So it became kind of a university for story genre and directing ultimately. So I think that community also really helped my story.
Speaker 2:Right, you're listening to Shades and Layers and my guest today is award-winning film writer and director Karabole Dikha. Up next we get deeper into what a successful creative career can look like. She also has some tips on what to do to get your foot in the door as a young professional and also how to have a sustainable career once you're there. So you've had a lot of hands-on experience to sharpen your skills. So somebody who's starting out now and wants to be like you, emulate your career. What would you advise them to do?
Speaker 1:I think that there are maybe two things I can think of now. I think being yourself really is your best bet, Because I think there's a lot of pressure to mimic all sorts of things. It could be anything, it could be, I don't know, South Korean cinema, it could. Whatever it is, it could be. I think being yourself because there's no other one like you, there's no other voice like you, is really a good idea. And secondly and this is tough it's a very tough question to answer, because there's so few ways to enter this industry.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm wondering exactly.
Speaker 1:Because there's all these people who are like, let me tell you what to do. I'm like I don't know. It's a tough industry and it shouldn't be, you know, and it's all about who you know and you know, and it's all about who you know. And what worked for me is because I knew somebody who had started before me, you know. So it's hard, I think, pestering people I get pestered a lot, and pestering people means going to film festivals, going to screenings and chasing, you know, watching their stuff, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Being in the environment, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Being in the environment and then having always something ready. Because, as I write, one of my producers once said work on the script before you involve anybody else, because that's literally the most control you have and it's your biggest investment, right? Because it's just me with my computer, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So make that investment work on have something ready. Always I found that even with the short film I had something ready already. You know right when some somebody says there's a call out at this and that and that, and they always call out because south africa is one of the few kind of industries or countries in the world that funds film from like the tax base.
Speaker 2:It's right, I know we complain a lot, but yeah, I didn't know that I didn't know that yeah, it didn't know that. Yeah, it's usually a private venture, yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, like Nigeria doesn't have Nigerian Film Commission or don't complain. Well, you didn't give us money, only funding these other people. We have a lot. We have the tax rebate system In Gauteng, we have the Film Commission, we have the National Film and Video Foundation, you know. We have the IDC that funds business models. Kzn has its own film commission. They all fund things and they have a mandate to fund from tier one to three, meaning beginning student level to mid to professional, as they say, whatever seasoned.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those things exist, and my first short film, which I don't want to show anybody, which is great because I guess it was a learning thing was through the NAVF's female filmmaker slate, which is has been going for years yeah, yeah and at the time somebody had dropped out and somebody who worked on the project said do you have anything?
Speaker 1:and I had something. I was like, oh, here's the thing. They were like, oh, this thing is great, it's great. Always have something and apply to these things, you know, and go to the, to the places yeah, yeah, that's it, yeah, okay, that's great.
Speaker 2:So network, be out there, have something ready, and filmmaking it's like such a time-consuming pursuit. Right, you're doing this one thing. You know how do you maintain yourself in the meantime while you're waiting for your film to be to be funded? You know what kind of things did you do, for example.
Speaker 1:I guess Johannesburg as an industry is very television based. I've always been like a television brain, a very much a television work. You know when they say you want to job up to work. I was coming here to work on television yep and because I always want to be quite versatile, because you can't really do one thing here, it doesn't work, especially in this industry you gotta find ways to different things.
Speaker 1:So I've always been a tv writer for hire so I write all sorts of genre. I've written prison drama, I've written virtual psycho thriller type things. Comedy it's not always comedy, I love it. I just love playing around, you know, and more recently, working as a director for hire as well, I found that it's like a little bit faster in terms of the timelines and you can kind of have more of it. Three months here writing can be quite long. So I'm a freelancer and I do all sorts of things Writing work mostly, and directing work, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's finally culminated in this huge milestone, which is sabbatical. What are your other proud moments? Do you have maybe two or three more that you'd like to share?
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm really proud of my short film. It was something quite honest and it touches people in a in an interesting way because it reminds you of my grandmother. You know, this is a superpower, this thing. I'm like I must keep doing this thing because I wanted to make a nostalgia piece. That's kind of very like you can almost like feel and touch this place, this memory place, you know.
Speaker 1:Memorabilia is cold and nostalgia. Really it's sweet and it's kind of indulgent and it's one-sided, you know. So I wanted to make that and I'm really, really proud of it. I think generally all my writing work really, if I saw it through as a writer, I really enjoyed it and I put myself in it, because often I'd start projects and I'd be like, no, I, I don't. I don't believe with this. I don't believe in the stereotyping. I think this is a terrible premise. I don't think this shows women in a good light, men in a good light. I don't want to put my spirit in this and no matter what it is, it doesn't matter what it is right, but I won't be able to see it through because I like to put myself in it and kind of jam with it.
Speaker 1:I worked on Emoen. It was a four-part series and it was like a tissue with a Google brainchild, you know oh yeah. Yeah, it was really beautiful. They wanted to make this kind of somewhere between the African spiritual realm and psychology, like this kind of blurred line.
Speaker 1:So I wrote a script for that series and you know, know, as a, writer yeah, it's really beautiful, interesting, so I'd send this as a sample, right like a sample writing, and people will be like what is, what is this? This has really done well for my. You know, sending people my sample writing queen sauna was also a great um milestone as well, yeah, innovation as well, something new, you know. Yeah, um, yeah, there are lots of things I'm proud of, mostly my writing, my writing work, yeah sure and who is on your list of people I have to meet in this lifetime?
Speaker 2:do you have some famous black women you'd like to? Yeah, let's say famous black women famous black women.
Speaker 1:It's always Ava DuVernay man, you know yeah, and. I. I just think there's something. I was having a conversation with a friend and kind of colleague today. He wanted to meet to say what next? Karabo? So I had to like okay, what, what are we doing next? I don't know. You know, and yesterday a friend of mine who's a cinematographer and director, natalie Harhohoff, sent me I know natalie yeah, she worked with us right here.
Speaker 1:Oh really, yeah, that's great yeah she sent me um, an old from a podcast from 2019, eva duvenet and she was like I don't know if you've heard this, but this kind of made me think of you. And then I was in an interview and somebody asked me the same question. I was like, oh, eva DuVernay. Before that I was like, whoa, look at this, you know. So I listened to it last night and I was like she's she's very I guess she's not comfortable with the fact that she has to do more than just make films. You know, because her peers who are not black women, just make films they're like what's next for fun just to do the work, to create spaces, for herself first and for other black women, you know yeah
Speaker 1:so her work is triple fold, double fold. It's like it's a burden because it takes away from creative life, you know right, but she does it. There's nothing in place for it. Because, if you, if you, because I feel like I've also been very passive I wait, I'm like, oh, this festival said no. Like, oh, this festival said no, I'm terrible. Or this festival said, no, I'm not good. You know, but why does the festival say no? How do I get my films to be seen by you know people? Maybe not this big festival, but maybe a black film festival, who do I know? You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Right so being kind of proactive in creating something new. So being kind of proactive in creating something new, even this film is cause I could have done what festivals like or what I've seen they like, or I could have done what streamers like I could have you know, abided by what's already there, but I was like, oh, let me be honest, and there's a price to pay, but there's opportunity with honesty whatever.
Speaker 1:But I feel like I'm already kind of doing something more than just creating, and I think I need to do more like Ava you know she does so much, create so much, and she comes up with solutions for the industry, for distribution, for representation.
Speaker 2:You know yeah, I also really like teaching and developing young voices as well.
Speaker 1:So I feel like, yeah, I'd like to just chill with Ava and kind of yeah, definitely Ava, I mean there are others, but she really stands out, yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think of the Shonda Rhimes model?
Speaker 1:Yo, I think, as a television beast, I, as somebody who who works in television, I think she's incredible in what she does, and television is interesting because it's it has such different kinds of demands as well. You know it. It's the success of it is next season, next season, next season, absolutely the success of it is going here you know, yeah, you have to keep going. You know, and I think even us as a collective queen sono one time whatever, there's a lot of one time because you're trying to break ground, you know, yeah yeah just like change, change the vibe, change the tone, just change the offering.
Speaker 1:And it's hard to to start because viewers are not used to it or streamers don't market it well because it's just not what has worked for the algorithm or whatever it is. Sure, yeah, I feel like we figured it out very well, especially starting with things like Grey's Anatomy, something quite palatable for everybody, and then kind of going into very specific. That was clever, yeah, very clever. That was very smart, palatable for everybody, and then kind of go into very specific yeah, very clever. That's like a tv brain, like that's like a master of television.
Speaker 1:You know, and then she can do private practice. You know interesting things that can be a little bit more specific or more black or whatever it is, but she built this thing and that's how just television works, you know yeah, so yeah, she's speaking of doing more than, um, uh, make creative pursuits.
Speaker 2:What kind of platforms or opportunities do you think a film like sabbatical gives access to or has opened now I?
Speaker 1:hadn't it was always the idea of let me make a calling card my desires kind of changed. You know when, when you put out something and you have different expectations of it and something else comes, you're like, oh shoot, I thought I'd just get a ticket into I don't know caa and have meetings with people who want you know it's always foreign.
Speaker 1:It's always western, you know, but I think I'd like somebody to understand the voice this is a voice this is, it's gonna be this, and think it's interesting enough to give to find more of this voice and it would be interesting if it was maybe like a straight up kind of comedy series with like a black woman lead who's kind of the antithesis of black girl magic. She's like really messed up like this lead in my film Sure.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to call it out of training.
Speaker 1:I was like we're not. We might look it, but we don't know what's happening. If somebody says I'm like I don't know, lady, where are the lyrics? Let me Google, you know. So, I find this bumbling thing, or the opposite of perfection, and like kind of black excellence, interesting, you know. So I feel like this is a good calling card for that kind of offering, but to make other feature films in the same vein. I feel like I'm obsessed with this divide, almost like we immigrants in the same country.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and those wounds are still there. Man, I mean imagine being the first, I mean we were some of the next, but the first batch of black girls who, like, went to private schools.
Speaker 1:Well then, hey, can you just imagine? And you also left home in a taxi Some of us you know, in a coon bee, you woke up at four. Your parents are like, hey, make it work, make it work. You know you woke up at four. Your parents are like, hey, make it work, make it work. You know, yeah, and you're a lot of it is a silent suffering or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm obsessed. I can't even going to. For me, going from social I always say social, but I'm sure I was living somewhere else at the time um to uct. For me it was like guys, can you imagine being? Yeah, I mean, I didn't know what it was, I didn't know what it was, yeah. So yeah, I feel like I'm obsessed with this divide. Hopefully I'll get it out of my system, but yeah, there seems to be a lot of this kind of commentary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely great. So sabbatical is out, you can watch it in cinemas in just in south africa for now, okay. Any plans for streaming or other ways to watch it?
Speaker 1:absolutely eventually. Yeah, we would like to have it on a streaming platform. I think it's interesting for filmmakers to be allowed the opportunity to exploit all the different bits of the value chain. You know, um, cinema's hard here, but I think it's a good kind of effort. If it's not mine, maybe the next film from somebody else, just to start that appetite, because I think filmmakers need to start recouping also from cinema, you know yeah because the streamers don't always market your stuff.
Speaker 1:Sometimes they swallow your, your films to never be heard of again, so it doesn't work for the director or the production company. You know you might get a fee, but I think it's important to try and exploit every kind of window, yeah, every single, even just to try, you know, because even the distributors are like it's a hard environment. We're like, okay, it's hard, let's try, let's just try. Yeah, so eventually it will be. I, eventually it will be, I won't say when, until people go to watch it. Great.
Speaker 2:Let's get them out there, man. Yeah, it's such a relatable story.
Speaker 1:Come on, we'll get them out there, and it's also entertaining. Exactly, I want to make something entertaining, like you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, no, it's great fun and so much better than all these you know made for Netflix things that you find. I mean I was like proper entertained, I was like I was invested in the characters, do you? Know, what's going to happen, you know.
Speaker 1:I really want also wanted to make this French lab it's called the group west that I went to. It was all COVID, so it was online but for a year. Their model is to have like these kind of french new wave, kind of very artistic kind of cinema, um, merged with kind of american entertainment, like plot driven stuff. I was interested in that. I was like, oh, you could have an artistic piece, because I don't want navel gazers, I don't want just people being like, oh, wank, wank.
Speaker 1:I feel like sure I feel like you should be doing more than just you kind of talking about your life. I don't know. Imagine me recovering from surgery and that's my story. So I had to come up with plots and twists and turns which I like, that model, you know, so that it's actually commercially viable and it hooks somebody and it's entertaining.
Speaker 2:So if people want to work with you, invite you to a talk or a film festival, where can they find you?
Speaker 1:My email address. I'm always. I'm very proud to say I have no unread emails in my inbox. I've seen people like I was like no, I'm always waiting for somebody. Oh, guilty, everybody else. I'm like, I will read every email. I don't know why, why? But my email address is klidiga at gmailcom. K-l-e-d-i-g-a at gmailcom. Great, perfect.
Speaker 2:And that is all from me this time around. Thanks to Karabo for sharing his story. Do go and check out Sabbatical. You don't have to be South African or a mother-daughter pair to enjoy it. It's just a great story told by a great storyteller. More information is available in the show notes. Thanks for listening and remember to share this episode with a friend. I'm Kuduanos Kosanarichi, and until next time, please do take good care.
