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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
Dads face unique issues during and after divorce. We identify and address the issues relevant to divorced/divorcing dads and create an action plan to survive and thrive!
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DISCLAIMER: The purpose of this podcast is to inform not influence. It is not a substitute for professional care or advice by a qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and The Divorced Dadvocate Podcast & Website neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.
The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
260 - The State of Dads: 5th Anniversary Episode
What's the true state of fatherhood in America today? In this milestone 260th episode, Jude assembles a powerful panel of experts to discuss the realities facing modern dads—especially those navigating divorce and family court challenges.
Ken Curry (therapist), Kirk Samuels (The Intimacy Incubator), Gordon (divorced dad), and David Passara (family law attorney) bring decades of personal and professional experience to this raw, honest conversation about what's really happening with fathers today.
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Music credit: Akira the Don
Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I sincerely appreciate it. This is a milestone episode for us and we are celebrating with my esteemed guests today. This is our 260th episode. So we have been doing this now for five years and we'll be entering into the sixth season of the Divorced Advocate podcast. And, man, I got to say I'm incredibly blessed to have been doing this work over this time. It has been, you know, truly, truly something that has given me back so much in doing this.
Speaker 1:And I did want to share and say usually I'll plug the website and getting involved and, as usual I would say jump on, if this is the first podcast you're listening to, to the website at thedivorcedadvocatecom and check out all the resources we have. But I did want to share a little bit about the success of this podcast. It is ranked in the top 5% of podcasts worldwide. There's almost 3 million podcasts, or a little over 3 million podcasts worldwide, and we are in the top 5% of those podcasts and that's truly a credit to all of you. Dads that have tuned in have shared this far and wide on social media. We have, over those five years, have had 130, almost 135,000 downloads of the podcast and we've been listened to in 149 countries. So if you're listening in one of those other countries, I appreciate it. Obviously, the listenership is highest here in the United States and we've also been listened to in 6,067 total cities across the world. And while that's good news for us that we're getting the word out and we're getting you guys the help that you need and deserve, it is a little bit sad that divorce is so prevalent and essentially normalized across the world. But again, that's why we're here, why we've created the community and why we're here to help out. So I'm excited to share what I'm calling the state of dads. It's a good time for us to do that. We're recording on Father's Day weekend here in the United States.
Speaker 1:I've got three dads with me today who I think would agree with me in saying it's one of the primary and most amazing things that we have done and do in our lives, and I'm going to just share a little bit about each one of them and why I've asked them to be on the show. A couple of them you've already heard before, actually multiple times before on this show. They're repeat offenders, I guess, if you will coming back on the show, which I love because they have an immense amount of wisdom that they have shared. And I'll start with my friend, ken Curry, who's a licensed marriage and family therapist here in the Denver metro area as well as the founder of solidmencom, a phenomenal men's group here. My other friend, kirk Samuels, who is the co-host and founder of the radio show Mad Men of Masculinity, and my other friend, gordon, who is a part of the Divorce Advocate community here in the Denver Metro area, has been since he went through his divorce and now he's I'm sure he will say, gladly post-divorce and still part of the community.
Speaker 1:So, gentlemen, thanks so much for being here. I just wanted to start out with having each one of you maybe share a little bit about yourselves and then we're just going to get in and chat a little bit about the state of dads. I know that you each have a unique perspective around that Ken being a therapist and Kirk doing the work that you've done with men for so long in the radio show, and Gordon just being an all-around great guy and an awesome dad and part of the community. So, ken, will you start us off?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll share a little bit about myself. So, yeah, I've been working with men for a long time, specifically as a therapist, for probably the last 15 years. My primary the work that I do is working with men and helping them grow, looking at transformation, building in their relationships, building a really solid internal frame within themselves and just really helping guys grow and doing well with life. So that's a big part of what I do. I've been married 41 years. This summer I have three adult children, two grandsons who are going to be coming over right after I'm done with this, so I'm pretty excited about that. It's awesome having grandkids. I love the outdoors, I just love getting out, so this is really an honor to be here. Like you were saying, being a father has been easily one of the most significant things I've had as a purpose in my life, and so that's just a really significant thing for me. So thanks for having me on, jude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and it's great to have you. I always love having your perspective here. And one thing I just want to add Ken has talked globally about men's issues and also has been threatened to be deplatformed and threatened and everything else, and he continues to speak up. I mean he's truly a man of conviction and values, truly a man of conviction and values, and so it's one of the reasons I always look to him for advice, as well as coming on and talking to him. So I just want to recognize that, ken, and I appreciate that, I appreciate the man you are and what you do. Thanks for being here. Thank you, those are kind words.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 3:Kirk. Well, first of all, congratulations, dude. I mean, it's one thing to do something, it's another thing to keep doing it. A lot of people can start something, but not a lot of people can stick with it, man. So congratulations, Huge kudos to you. And, knowing you personally, you're the real deal and I appreciate you and all the work you do. So I go by the moniker the Intimacy Incubator.
Speaker 3:With strength, wisdom, gentleness and mercy, I co-create a world of intimacy and unconditional connection by teaching and inspiring one million men how to live free from internet pornography. I am a two-time offender in terms of divorce. I'm currently married to a phenomenal woman that I'm pretty sure I'm going to break my streak on with this one. And so you know through my own struggles, man, you know the reason I failed twice is the same reason seven out of ten divorces have in common anyway, and that's someone with a broadband internet pornography addiction. And so I decided to take my experience, and particularly my failures, and incorporate those in helping teaching other guys how to quit the way I did, and not so much focusing on consumption or addiction, but mostly functioning on the freedom aspect of it.
Speaker 3:Like man freaking. Life is great when you live with purpose, uh, and not guilt. Um, when you live with a reason to start and not a reason to stop something, uh, life is great and so. So, through that, you know to your point. You know a couple books out there, uh, you know some speaking, and then you know, one of the other things currently, like you said, is our Mad Men of Masculinity radio show over the air here, klbc in Denver, colorado, and podcast platforms everywhere and social media platforms and all that kind of stuff. So, again, honored to be here, man, and any way I can get on the battlefield, on the front lines, with a guy like Jude, I'm down for it, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and I appreciate it, and I do want to comment on the work that you do, because I've been in rooms with you and when you talk and heard you and heard some of your stuff and the work that you do is, I encourage everybody to tune in or to get involved if you've got some challenges around the work that Kirk does, because he described it best in a compassionate manner and there's just a way about him and the way that he operates and the way that he talks and the way that he makes you feel that there's no shame in it and there's and it's, and it's a way forward, it's a way to freedom, right, my friend? And so you know, kudos to you and I really appreciate you. So thanks for being here, gordon.
Speaker 5:Hey, how's it going, Jude Yep. So I will be divorced for two years in August coming up, and I'm very excited about that.
Speaker 1:All right, you're a divorcery.
Speaker 5:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yes, luckily just a one-time offender so far, so hopefully never make it more than one.
Speaker 1:Well third time's a charm apparently with. Kirk right.
Speaker 5:One's all I can take. So there you go. Yeah, honestly you, jude, you've been awesome and really helped everybody through it, really appreciate all the work that you do in the in the dad's forum, so that's been fantastic, especially like I think one of the big things is just be able to bounce ideas off of you strategies and plans and help help all the guys get through it, which has been tremendously helpful to me and I'm sure everybody else in the group as well. So thank you for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Cool. And Gordon's our resident pickleball expert here trying to get everybody, everybody in the community pickle curious. So we appreciate that. We appreciate that.
Speaker 5:All right, I'll put a shout out there for it, because you know, one of the big things is a rebuilding community as you go through the divorce and there's nothing faster than pickleball to rebuild your community yeah, yeah, it's a great social game and you know I was a tennis, tennis snob and it took him probably, uh, six months to get me out there and, and well, I won't say that that I'm hooked and I play as much as him because I just don't have the time.
Speaker 1:it is so much fun and it is great and it is social. So, yeah, that's for sure the truth, my friend. So thanks for being here. I appreciate it and appreciate your friendship. And we got a wild card here. I wasn't sure if he was going to show up or not. He has appeared and I'm excited to have him. My friend, david Passara, who is the founder of Union of Dads as well as a family law attorney. David, thanks for coming. We're just giving some brief intros of ourselves here and, if you don't mind, please share.
Speaker 4:Thanks, gene. To echo what Kirk said congratulations on five years. That is quite an accomplishment.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 4:You should be very proud of yourself. So I'm Dave Pizarro. I've been a divorce lawyer for 27 years now, so I've walked with men through the battles and the nightmare of family court, and I started Union of Dads, which is a group of fathers who are coming together to support themselves through the divorce or through the child custody battle process. I have an online course called Dad's Law School, which is our main website, dadslawschoolcom, where I teach dads how to represent themselves in family court, because so many times they just run out of money and energy and lawyers. At the end of the day, they end up having to represent themselves, and so they need some help.
Speaker 4:After you spent 20 grand on a lawyer and learned nothing about what to actually say in court, somebody is actually stepping up and being like here's what you tell the judge, here's how you tell the judge. And this morning we had one of our monthly meetups and we have guys coming together to share their experiences, and it's really beautiful to see men come together and support each other through these rough, dark times when they're going through those divorces or those custody battles, because we have both. And you know, I'm really, really encouraged when I see something like that and I see these guys come together and support each other, so it's been a really great journey working through my life for the last 27 years with dads and going through family court through my life for the last 27 years with dads going through family court.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you bring up a great point, which is having community around you and being involved with other guys during this difficult and challenging time and each one of us here does work with other men, and I can't speak for you, but I'll speak for myself.
Speaker 1:That was life-changing when I started to understand the importance of being around other men, particularly during and you need leaders of men in order to bring the other, the other men, around and and make it a space that's comfortable for them. Then to say, oh, okay, yeah, that's okay, other people are going through this. Um, I can, uh, I can let down my guard because, as men, right, we want to. We want to just, uh, maybe be stoic, maybe we were taught that, maybe it was by necessity, et cetera. So, yeah, kudos to you and just reemphasize I just want to reemphasize that with the guys that are listening, it's really really incredibly important and take it from four other incredibly strong men on this call that are on this podcast that it's a sign of strength if you're looking to surround yourself with other men and get involved with other men to look for help and it's June and it's Men's Mental Health Month, so I think that's an important thing to emphasize as well.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. And the other thing, I think, is that you know, as they lift each other up, they each become stronger, is one of the biggest things that I've noticed is that guys come in and they're beaten down emotionally and their ego has been shattered and their finances are in a shambles and they're trying to just figure out, like do I or do I not? Just like take myself out of the game here, and they actually get to rebuild their egos by being involved with other men. That's the one thing I've noticed is you know the rejuvenation that happens when they come together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And maybe when Gordon pops back in here he can attest to that, because I remember you know it's been two years that when he first came on. And that's the challenge with divorce, right? Is that? Hopefully, with the exception of Kirk, we don't go through it more than once, right? But with anything that you've never gone through, you don't know what to expect. It is difficult, it's challenging, it's uncertain, it's stressful, like all those, all of those things. So, having somebody there, just like when you were learning to ride a bike, when you're a kid, or when you did anything for the first time, you had a coach or had somebody that was helping you through it, it made things more comfortable. And then, yeah, to your point, david, then that builds confidence, builds resilience and all the other things. So, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:So I got a question. I would say, man, one of the darkest bellies of the beast for me through that process was just the feeling of loneliness and isolation, man, it's just the feeling of I'm the only one going through this and nobody else can understand. And I'm in this alone and you know one of the. You know, one of the worst things a man can do is be alone. One of the best things a man can do is to be around other men. We are force multipliers when it comes to us coming together, but when we're alone we get plucked off. Navy SEALs don't go into battle alone, right? So you know the whole idea of men getting together. I wouldn't even say it's good. I would say it's mandatory for the success of men to get around other men and to have iron sharpened eyes.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, so that kind of leads into one of the questions I had, which is do you feel like dads are starting to be more open and that there is more openness around mental health for dads, or do you still feel that there's a lot of taboo around it?
Speaker 2:I think the answer is yes. There is a lot of taboo still around it. I think to Kirk's point, the whole thing of the men wanting to be with other men. I think a lot of guys don't realize the essence and the power of that and how the isolation is such a significant, horrible thing for us. And so I think for your two questions, is it still a taboo? Yeah, it is, but I think a lot more guys are starting to see the writing on the wall that I need other men or I need to do something to care for myself.
Speaker 2:I think one of the most important things that a father could do for his kids is to be able to take care of his own stuff and to get himself squared away and to be able to become stronger. Need to take care of myself. I need to. I need the men around me. I need to talk to a therapist. I need to be part of a team, a group, even if it's pickleball, whatever. I need people around me and the thing about that is it takes humility. It takes you have to open yourself up, and opening yourself up is fairly vulnerable and most guys have a hard time with that. But vulnerability, even though it sounds horribly unmasculine. It actually is a pretty powerful part of a posture of a man to be open with other men and to put ourselves in that position and uh, but it just takes humility and a lot of guys have a hard time getting there that for a second, because I, because I vulnerability what let's describe that, because I think there might be some misconception.
Speaker 1:What's what some dads are listening to, or some men in general are listening, they say, well, you know vulnerability they, they might have the picture of like you know, like we're, we're curled up and we're like crying, like crying to each other in some like self-help group, and that's not necessarily what we're like crying to each other in some like self-help group, and that's not necessarily what we're talking about here in vulnerability, when we're either doing some work with the solid men group or with your group, kirk, or the divorced advocate group. Vulnerability is different than that. Because one of you want to jump in on what you would describe as vulnerability and like an example of that.
Speaker 4:Well, I, I think you know, a lot of men perceive vulnerability as being open to being attacked that's what they're most afraid of, whereas, like in my men's group, what I have found and what they're what they're experiencing is they don't get attacked, but they're only willing to open up once they've seen someone else do it and not get attacked. So you kind of have to like prime the pump here on some level. When you're dealing with men in groups, you've got to have somebody and usually it's me opening up like here's what's going on, and then they see like somebody else actually be supportive, and then it's just like a waterfall, like they're all jumping in, they're climbing over each other to like open up and share what's going on because they have such a need for it. But they've been keeping it down for so long that it's kind of just burst out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:I'll use.
Speaker 1:I'll give an example. Inevitably, in some of our group calls, somebody might, might be having some challenges, might be getting emotional, and one of us will say, hey, you know, I cried myself to sleep last night, or I've been there, I've cried myself to sleep and you literally hear like a collective sigh of oh, you too, like a collective sigh of oh, oh, you too Right. And then, and then, like you said, david, it's almost like though it like everything comes down then and it's like, oh, okay, well, look, he looks pretty, uh, you know he looks, he looks pretty strong. And if he's crying himself to sleep, uh, and he's done that, then it must be okay. I'm not the only one. That that's that's doing it and it's kind of just opens things up and you're right, you need to have somebody.
Speaker 4:That's willing to be able to open up and share that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:But I think one of the big things is that it's important for the guys to see that the one who opens up doesn't get attacked. He actually gets supported. Like in my men's group, like I go to this men's group on Sunday night, there's about 60 guys. Once or twice a year there's some guy I'll get up there and he'll tell like this just horrific story from his childhood and you can see like he's it's coming out of him because it has to, but he doesn't really want to do it and what ends up happening is there's like this he'll stop talking and there will be this roar of support for him and like the room just erupts in a way that like nobody would normally expect. If they had never seen it before, they would expect this guy to be like a little lamb around a whole bunch of lions just ready to attack him. And that's not what happens at all. In my experience with men, I've yet to see a group of men turn and attack someone who's getting Never seen it, no, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Now race is public or bigoted.
Speaker 4:I've seen that happen.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Like a self-regulating system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I would say another category sorry, another category.
Speaker 2:On that, a lot of times people, especially in the manosphere, people won't. They'll say vulnerability is not a masculine virtue, but it's so vulnerable, kind of like you're saying putting myself in a position where those other guys could attack me. But the masculine virtue that is at play is courage. It's courage, courage is at play because that man is able to open himself up and allow himself to be seen by the other men, and the other men see it and it resonates deeply with them, creating a connection, creating support, creating what we all need. And it doesn't happen. The connection, the intimacy between men this is real masculine intimacy doesn't happen unless a man's willing to open up, and that takes a hell of a lot of courage and courage is a masculine virtue.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and with the vulnerability itself, it's the willingness, willingness to connect, the willingness and desire to connect. When I, when I'm willing and I desire connection with you, then I am opening myself up to you, I'm allowing you to, you know, to, to see my, my, the parts of me that aren't the strongest, maybe even the parts of me that I'm ashamed of. You know, know, and you know, to our points here, what normally happens is not an attack, it's normally not judgment from other men unless you're in some very unhealthy settings. It's normally overwhelming acceptance.
Speaker 3:When I started sharing my personal struggles is when all of my doors opened up to be able to have friends. I've never had friends like actual deep friendship until I was able to open up and say, hey, I want to connect with you guys and I want to allow you to see me for who I am. I want to be able to look in the mirror and love who I see, even if I don't necessarily love what I see in terms of the process and the trajectory and the journey that I'm on. So, in terms of vulnerability, man, it begins with the willingness to want to and have the desire to connect and connect with others.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'd say the first step is just showing up, right, showing up to a meeting, finding somewhere and going. And Gordon, I want to put you on the spot a little bit here. I just got a quick question because when you stepped away, I just mentioned the difference in the growth from the first time that you showed up in our group to where you're at now and I have the opportunity to spend a lot of time with you. So I get to know you, I know you intimately, but share a little bit about what was your first stimulus to show up to our group meeting that first time.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about vulnerability here and I felt very vulnerable because I was going through something I'd never gone through before and had massive repercussions for me and my two little kids, you know, because I got small children. So for me I just I was sort of looking for someone who'd been there, done that, and it was tremendous to be able to sort of honestly I wish I'd have found it a lot earlier, like when I was looking for a lawyer, but it was good to get in there and for me I was again looking for guidance and it was actually really nice to be able to sort of open up to a group of guys who'd been through this before and were able to share their stories and share the heartache that they were going through, which resonated quite a bit with me. And it was nice to be able to share my stories as well, because I really think that's just part of getting through it right. Because for me, I think the divorce process is really a cycle of grief in a lot of ways, where you've lost a large chunk of your life. It's sort of like one of the tripods of your life has been cut off and you're starting from scratch all over again, because you've gone from having a pretty settled family situation to everything is questioned as to what's going on. You know your house, your job, your relationships with friends and uh, and obviously the person that you were with is is no longer going to be in your life anymore.
Speaker 5:So for me, it was really just uh, sort of like you say, being able to be vulnerable, come in and have that be part of getting through the grief process, cause you can't really get around it, you have to just go right through it. And for me, that was the best thing that I could possibly do is to be around other guys who are in the same boat as me, so that I could also see that, hey, what I'm going through isn't uncommon, it's not a reason to be a pariah in any way. It's fairly common, I would think these days, 50% plus, you know, go through divorce. So I would say that it was just, you know, it's sort of it gives you a grounding, if you will. That says this is, this is not something that I need to. Uh, worry, you know, worry about it'll be over. There's going to be an end to this tunnel, if you will. It's just going to be, uh pretty hellish to get there, but everyone is on the same path at this point, yeah.
Speaker 5:And honestly like my life is tremendously better at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah. So we're talking about, we're talking about myths, right, we're talking about the myth of vulnerability. What? What else do you feel? You guys feel is, um is a myth about divorced dads that just won't go away.
Speaker 4:They don't want to be involved with their kids. I mean, that's the one where I'm like, you know the deadbeat dad syndrome. I'm like that's just such a yes, you know, like, like in my world I would say most dads are fighting tooth and nail to get more time with their kids and the fact that they have to fight proves to me that their mom, that the mother of their children, is a bad mom, because good moms don't make good dads fight to see their kids and they're just flipping it. They're making the dads the villain. In the reality, the dads are the heroes, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so do you feel like that is an image that continues to be pushed wherever into society, or in family law courts, or in family law courts, or because we know, so the five of us know, having been around other dads doing work with men, et cetera. The majority, and not just a small majority like I would say 90, some percent of men and fathers I would say 99 want to be involved and are involved in our good dads, et cetera. What is still pushing this narrative?
Speaker 1:you want me to be honest about it money money okay, yeah, you guys nobody can see we're not recording video, uh. But you know, david just held up a lot of cash, so yeah, it's money, because it's because, from mom's perspective, time equals money.
Speaker 4:So for mom to have more time, dad has to be the villain, dad has to be the negligent, incompetent parent, dad has to be the one he doesn't really want to be there. And so dad has to go out and earn money and then the more time she's got, the more child support she gets, and that's the the big motivator. That's what I see time and time again.
Speaker 1:So it's the system. The system is set up.
Speaker 4:No no no, no.
Speaker 4:So you feel like it's. It's bad moms, okay, taking advantage of a system that is trying to protect the children, okay. But now the reason why I say that you does this good moms who want dads in their kids lives, who want 50 50. That just happens and then the money issue just plays out the way the money issue is bad moms who are in it for the money, cast dad as the villain, the negligent, horrible deadbeat, because they're in it for the child support. It's not the system that's pressing that. The system allows it, but it's not creating it. Okay.
Speaker 1:So I don't. Yeah, give me a sec, gordon. So I don't disagree with you. But if so, what we're describing as bad moms, I would, I would contend, are women that might have some mental, emotional issues or personality disorders or or something significant going on Right, which is not the majority of women in our society. I would say that that's probably a minority of the women and not a, you know, not a not a huge minority of women women too.
Speaker 1:So if that is in fact the case, what continues to push us? Because if it's a minority of women that are pushing, is it just because they're the loudest and the minority of women that want to perpetuate this, but usually minorities. When they are noisy, after a while it goes away. So is it because they're loud and the system supports their ability to do that? Do you see where I'm getting at? So I agree with you when you're saying that it's bad moms. Yes, just like it would be bad dads that are doing that. If a woman's not supporting a dad being involved, you know that there's some mental, emotional issue going on, because any healthy mom or healthy dad wants the other parent to be involved in in their lives, right?
Speaker 4:yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:There's also a level of and the only way to describe it. There's also a level of ignorance on the men's part that are going through that process, and I mean ignorance in the literal way, meaning they don't don't know again. I'm two time offender, my first divorce. I didn't know that I could ask for something. I didn't know that I can say, you know, hey, here's what I want. I didn't know that I could, you know, advocate for myself. I didn't know that I didn't know what I didn't know. To be totally honest with you and and you know, to what you described, david almost became a cash 22, because, you know, as I had to go out and get two extra part time jobs to meet this financial requirement that I had, I had less bandwidth to be a present father in my, in my kids life, and so it just became a cycle. But I didn't have and this is why I'm a little bit miffed at you, jude, and you, david because I needed you guys 22 years ago and you weren't doing what you're doing now.
Speaker 3:You chumps were way late for me. I needed the resources that you guys have now back then, and so that's why I say it's a matter of ignorance, because I didn't have a book like yours, david. I didn't have any kind of support system like either one of you have. I didn't have a book like yours, david. I didn't have any kind of support system like either one of you have. I didn't have a coach I can reach out to, like Jude. I didn't have that kind of stuff. To know that, wait a minute.
Speaker 3:And so thereby, on my second divorce, I walked in. We didn't even use an attorney for our divorce. I walked in saying no, I want 50-50. Here's all the reasons why. Here's all the reasons why. Here's all the reasons that support that blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And I laid it all out there and, man, it was crystal clear. But the difference between my first and my second one was just information. I didn't have that, and so not having that information and not having that support hurt me the first time around. So, like I said, I needed you guys back 22 years ago and you guys were late to my part.
Speaker 5:Gordon, I can corroborate with that because, honestly, going through this was I knew that I didn't know enough and I was terrified of that exact fact, exact fact and sure enough. Going through this, having to deal with terrible lawyers off the bat, just making it even worse because they weren't willing to step up and just be decent people and tell you what you needed to know. They were lazy, they were negligent, and I'm so glad that I switched lawyers to someone who was better because, oh my God, they were just like yeah, whatever your ex-wife wants to do, we'll just do that. So, yeah, real happy that I got somebody new.
Speaker 5:And to what David was saying about some of the bad women that we've been exposed to my ex wanted to blackmail me because she was breastfeeding my son, even though he was a year and a half old and eating solid food. But trying to blackmail me in court over breastfeeding me and telling me that I would never get to see my son, even though he was a year and a half old and eating solid food. But trying to blackmail me in court over breastfeeding me and telling me that I would never get to see my son. So, yeah, the ones. I think there is that vocal minority that we have to deal with, jude, the crazier they are, the louder they are and the less likely they are to go away, as you and I both know.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, so that's a good, that's a good point. So what I'm what I'm hearing is there is a vocal minority that they that, that, it and and this, for whatever reason, has proliferated, but also that not knowing and not being educated enough dad's being educated enough on what the process is Like. Like you said, gordon, you only trust, did you attorney, and if the first thing you did is you hire an attorney and that's the only thing you did, then mostly you're going through this process trusting an attorney and, hey, just like any profession, there's some really great attorneys, like David, and there's some really crappy attorneys out there, just like anything. So if you get stuck with one that's taking you down the wrong path, then then you just have that bad experience, Like you described, kirk, and then it becomes a. It becomes a cycle of of hey, I might not have been uh deadbeats a terrible way, but I might not have been uh able to to um, uh to to be able to fulfill the terms of what I got into because I didn't know.
Speaker 1:And now it's making it more difficult, now it's making it look like I'm a deadbeat dad, and then that just perpetuates. And so I guess my next question is do you feel like, because there is more information out there there's the internet, there's David's group, our groups that there's more information out there, that this perception is starting to change because we're getting more educated, because we know more about mental health issues, etc. To emphasize this vocal minority of mental emotion issues and challenges, because I think this is where it all gets really, really log jammed, because it's a bunch of these minority, because what is? I don't know what the statistic is, but something like 93% of cases gets done outside of court. So that's a two part question.
Speaker 2:Dude, I'm going to take the question. Guys, I want you to answer Jude's question, but I'm going to answer another question because it's from the world of therapy and kind of where we are with this, because you guys are talking about the world of the court system and bad moms and all this. I want to. I want to say something about what I see with the, with the guys, and and it's how guys, you know, you, uh, Kirk and Gordon, you guys were talking about how you entered into this thing, going kind of deer in the headlights type of thing, and most of us, most of us do.
Speaker 2:But the problem, the big problem, is the whole nice guy syndrome type of thing, where I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to do nothing, I can't do anything to piss her off, and so my whole world has been making her happy.
Speaker 2:I got to make her happy, or managing her moods or making her like me and all that.
Speaker 2:And so all of a sudden and that's probably the reason why I got a divorce to begin with, unless she is one of the crazy ones we're talking about. But the thing is, is that that has to change? I have to learn how I need to be a man of integrity, where I need to say what needs to be said. I need to communicate what I want, even if it pisses somebody off, especially her, and that really has to change. That has to be a very significant thing that a man has to work on and say I can't be this nice pablum guy has to work on and say I can't be this nice pablum guy. I need to have more strength, I need to have more boundaries, I need to say no, I need to say what I want. But it takes a lot of courage, a lot of um. Uh. There's a lot of work a guy has to do to shift from being that nice guy and pleasing and appeasing guy um in order to become a lot stronger and having more of a frame within.
Speaker 1:And so I wanted to say that, but I do want to keep on going. No, that's a really great point. We can put my questions on pause because I think that's important to address. You're essentially describing codependency codependent men that are not comfortable creating boundaries.
Speaker 2:This is a majority of guys creating boundaries and it is a. This is a majority of guys. Majority of guys are isolated, like we were talking about and this whole thing of codependent nice and I can't. I'm a very much a pleaser appeaser type of guy. Most guys have this as a problem, and so that's a problem that we can fix.
Speaker 2:Even if you're married, you're not divorced. If you're divorced, looking at your next marriage, whatever it is going, I have to become a much more internally referenced man. The externally referenced man is worried about what everybody else thinks, what makes her happy, what she expects. All that rather than what do I expect? What is my passion? What's important to me? What are my values? What's my moral compass, my code of honor All that in here. What's my values, what's my moral compass, my code of honor all that in here. What's my identity? Who the hell am I Right? That's internal reference and from there I can move in a really strong way in my life and in my relationships and as a father and as a worker or whatever it is. But that's the thing that has to change and I have power over that. I might not have power over her mood or what she's doing in this whole divorce process, but I have power to be able to build my strength, and that's what we can do?
Speaker 5:I tried to teach myself golf and I sucked at it, right, because the reason is I can't see how bad my swing is, I don't know what I'm doing wrong, and you need to have that outside perspective, someone who can sit there and say, hey, here's what you're doing, here's the pattern that you're in, you know, this is why you're hitting a slice every time.
Speaker 5:Basically, and I think one of the nice things like I remember going to therapy and having it be I would tell them. You know, it's really nice to come in here and talk to you because I feel like I'm in a bizarro zone when I'm at home with the ex-wife and her mom and everything and nothing makes sense over there until I come and get that outside perspective. So I think having someone who is able to have the training, have that outside perspective sort of point you in the right direction is invaluable when you're going through a process like this, especially if the ex has as we've talked about, jude mental health issues. Let's be honest.
Speaker 1:Right right so well so you bring up a really good point, gordon, which is so we're talking about state of dads and you talk about, like I'm in this world and I'm going like, am I crazy? Because I'm like, I'm feeling crazy but I'm not crazy. And then you know, you're just you're describing it on a healthy relational dynamic, right, probably as well. But how do we? So the state of dads, like, how do we, how do we cut through that? Because right now, the state of dads, if you're watching movies or you're watching sitcoms or advertising, we're stupid, we can't figure anything out on our own.
Speaker 1:Homer Simpson, peter Griffith, everything else, that's the message that is out there. That's the message that is out there. So when we're going through this man, I got to tell you I can't. How do you even, how do you even come to the realization that you're not crazy, you're just, maybe, codependent, maybe you figured, maybe you've created this relational dynamic which you have, which is not working. What do you do? Like where do you go? I think one of the points we made is you go to another guy and you get around guys and then they're like hey look, dude, you're freaking codependent.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:But the one thing I would love to see is I would love to see a stake driven through the heart of happy wife, happy life.
Speaker 5:Mm, hmm.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that is a phrase that just does nothing but enslave men to a, to a taskmaster who has no idea what they actually want.
Speaker 2:Oh right, yeah, no, that's perfectly said. They run around.
Speaker 4:They're like I need to be happy. You don't make me happy. Excuse me. My job is not to make you happy, it isn't. It is not your responsibility. Period. You've got to be happy in yourself, and then you can have a relationship Right, I think one of the best things I've heard mental health is your own responsibility.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a good point too, because as we start to do that as dads, we're going to be, because I feel like what we've, we've created a cycle now with uh, uh, with, uh, the younger generation of, of young men that uh that are, are perpetuating this, uh, this whole mentality around that, that happy wife, happy life thing, which is completely unhealthy and it's only going to exacerbate the, the dysfunctional relationships that are.
Speaker 1:They're co-dependent or whatever else. And if we can start, as dads, to break those and it's hard, and especially if somebody is listening right now and they're in the midst of it to say, hey, this is an opportunity for me, right, this is an opportunity, through this divorce, to be able to change a dynamic that might be even generational, to then help my kiddos go forward and be healthy and functioning adults, which you might not be thinking about, but I think the five of us being maybe on the back well, at least those of us that have been divorced on the backside of this and the others that have worked with people divorced can look at that and say, hey, yeah, this is an opportunity if you're going to pay attention to it. Like, like Gordon said, if you're going to, it's your responsibility, but you can do something about it.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and honestly that's a big reason I got the divorce in the first place is because I wanted to. I wanted my kids to have a healthy life mentally healthy, emotionally healthy and see what a good relationship looks like and what a happy and normally functioning household should be. I can't control what's going on 50% of the time, but I can control what's going on 50% of the time, so that's my goal and really it's the most beneficial thing I could ever possibly do for those kids. You know and this is one I'm sorry this is one of the things that I think when I see a lot of these divorced dads and these guys who make excuses for staying in horrible relationships really need to get over, because you are doing the right thing by getting out of a bad relationship, not sticking in it for the kid's sake.
Speaker 3:Men value peace mostly. I mean most of us do, and most of us value peace because in our world, conflict can involve death. Right, it's not that way for women, that that rationale is not necessarily the same, so it's not the same value scale to the concept or notion of peace. And so sometimes we get confused that the notion of peace or the desire to have peace, which is essentially kind of the lack of conflict, with us being there and us having the role to provide structure, Structure and conflict are two totally different things. And so when we show up, we should show up with some level of structure. There's the whole flagpole and flag metaphor and you know the riverbanks and the river and all those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:The challenge is, in order to provide structure in any setting, we got to be willing to not be liked. Provide structure in any setting. We got to be willing to not be liked. We got to be willing to advocate for ourselves and for what's right in the moment, regardless of the outcome. We got to be willing to walk in and say, you know, in a divorce setting, this is what I want and this is why, Again, total alley-oop to David. This is why I love the angle you took with your book of here's what you say, here's the form, here's what you do to walk in and say these kinds of things, to provide that structure, because our society doesn't like structure. Everything is fluid these days, right?
Speaker 3:Everything is like, not necessarily, you know, this other kind of stuff, and so the desire to remove structure is kind of the consequence of what we see in the court system and all that kind of stuff. So, again, I love the notion, you know, of being able to walk in and say, hey, here's what I would like, here's I'm going to speak up for myself, even if it's not liked by her, even if it's not, you know, even if it challenges the status quo of what's going on. But being able to walk in with the cojones of a man saying, hey, I love my kids, I want my kids, I want to be in my kid's life, regardless of what she says I'm not that guy, you know, this is I mean but to be able to say things and say it the right way and to be able to again advocate for yourself, that's where we need to be as men, to step in and provide structure at the same time, in the absence of conflict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great point. In the absence of conflict, yeah, that's a great point. And I want to take it a step further, because I think you're exactly right in that this whole mindset of structure and discipline in the greater context of dad bad dad does not matter, dad does not have as much of a role in the child rearing, et cetera. Because what we're seeing here and, david, I'd love your perspective on this is this next step is authoritarian versus authoritative. Men are too authoritative and therefore the mother should have more parenting time, and we're starting to see some of this get codified, because then he's not cooperative. Right, like you'll stand up for yourself, Like you said, kirk, which is what we have to do as dads.
Speaker 1:If you're being alienated or you're not seeing your kids or the parenting plan isn't being followed, you have to stand up for them, you have to stay involved, because then it will digress. And so, david, are you seeing that at least men start to get this idea? Or do we need to keep pushing this idea of what Kurt was talking about? Because it's just to me, it's a mess, but I see guys all the time just getting destroyed over it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think 100%. Times are changing. The younger generation is definitely saying like I want to be a more active father. We're seeing that in our practice more and more. We're not seeing as many divorces because we're not seeing as many marriages. So we're seeing more child custody cases.
Speaker 4:And the book Kirk talks about was my book Child Custody Action Plan. It's designed to give dads exactly what they need to stand up in court and say I'm a great dad. Here's 43 reasons why. And now I'm asking for 50 percent custody because I think they do need to stand up. I think they do need to stand up. I think they do need to press themselves. They do need to get into court and start arguing against the, the presumption that mom's a better mom just because she's still breastfeeding at one and a half years. You know, a guy in my group today was saying his his baby mama is arguing that he can't have overnights because at two and a half the kid is still breastfeeding it's like, like no, you need to get into court and tell the judge, like here's three reasons why we can work around.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and there's still, I think, like 20% of the states that don't have 50-50 custody as the default right.
Speaker 4:More than that.
Speaker 5:Is there more than?
Speaker 1:that. So we're still fighting a battle around that with that mentality. I wanted to comment on one other thing, though, that Gordon mentioned about being involved in the fact that we need to continue to be aware of what our kids are consuming and what they're seeing and hearing, Because I think, to turn this tide, especially with our kiddos in the next generation, that we need to be calling this stuff out as dads. And I remember I watched the movie no, it's not the Despicables, but some other movie and it's a superhero and the dad all of a sudden can't be a superhero because he's too violent and the mom takes over the superheroing and anything.
Speaker 2:The Incredibles, yeah, the.
Speaker 1:Incredibles 2. And it was just. It was so anti-dad and anti-family. It's just ridiculous. But we have this stuff everywhere and I've just started to have conversations with my daughters about, hey, does that look like any dad? And I remember when I did this I said that movie, it was fun, whatever silly. Does that dad look like any dad that you know in our sphere of dads? And they're like, no, not really. I'm like okay.
Speaker 1:And then just being aware of this stuff, with the reading in school, I can't tell you the crap that they're reading in school. I just was talking to my daughter about some, you know, some, some venomous manifesto that they're, they're, they're, they're reading in, in, in, in school and for pleasure and whatnot. We need to be calling. But that takes us being really, really active Right All the time, even if it's 50 percent, but 50, a hundred percent of the time, 50% of the time, and being aware of this and having those conversations all of the time with them and pointing this stuff out Because, like my daughters now will be like, yeah, we see that dad, or yeah, dad, because they know it's going to come up, but they're, they're friends and so many kids out there don't see it and there's a lot of dads that don't see it as well.
Speaker 2:Dude, what you're talking about? What you're talking about is a narrative, it's a story, and it's a story that's been told for my whole lifetime. I'm 64 years old, I was born in 61. And the thing is, back then it wasn't toxic masculinity, but back then it was a male chauvinist pig. And it's been going on ever since. And is this story? It's a story that you suck as a man. You're oppressive, you suck stupid, you don't know what you're doing, you're not emotional, you're not everything. I mean all the different categories. It's a story, it's a narrative that's been told. And what you're talking about, jude, is holding up a new, true narrative. It's not new, but it's a true narrative.
Speaker 2:Every guy what did we say? 95% of guys we run into are passionately wanting their children. Right, there's so many guys that are just good, good men make the mistake of being a happy wife, happy life guy. But they knew that. If I knew really how to roll and how to love, I wouldn't do that. But most guys across the board are incredible individuals and being the gatekeeper of the narrative is what we're doing right here. We're telling a story. The gatekeeper of the narrative is what we're doing. Right here. We're telling a story. Men are good, fathers are good. I mean, if you have ever been to a church on Mother's Day, everything is oh, moms are amazing. But if you go to Father's Day on a church, they're always. You guys suck and you guys need to pick it up. I'm telling you that's horrible Because the narrative, the story of men, of fathers, is not good.
Speaker 2:But what you're talking about, jude, and what we're doing here with this moment of this podcast, is here's the real story about what men are all about. They're isolating, which is a major problem. They're being too nice without a really solid core, and that's a problem. We're not speaking up for what we want and need. We're not setting boundaries and holding people accountable for what we need and advocating for ourselves. These are the issues. It's not because I suck, because men do not suck. Every single study out there shows that a father in the home has massive positive outcomes Every study. It's insane how the studies are just amazing. And so what you're talking about, jude, is how do we tell the true story about men and how do we live according to that ourselves? That's such a big part of this whole thing.
Speaker 4:If I could just jump in on one thing Ken just said that men are isolating and I don't disagree that there's a lot of isolation of men. But one of the big issues that I see in my community is men who have been isolated by the woman in their life who's like well, I don't want you hanging out with Gordon. He's like he's always in that fucking pickleball. You don't need to be spending Saturdays playing pickleball. I don't like Kurt. He's too talkative. I don't like Kurt, he's too talkative. I don't like Kent. Kent's just too lazy. And they isolate, they push away the guy's friends which, by the way, is emotional abuse these days but nobody wants to talk about that. And then when the relationship breaks up, he's got no support network. So yes, isolating, but that's because he's been isolated.
Speaker 2:I love it, that's right.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and honestly, I'll tell you another thing here too, david, as a single dad with young kids I don't know what the right word is, because it's Saturday and I have two kids, so but but it's basically like there's a double standard, as we've talked about earlier, with women versus men, right, and one of the ones that I'm running into is it's really hard for me as a, as a guy, to go and make friends with kids that are around my age, cause most of these are women, and women see me as a single guy and they're like what's wrong with him, you know, um, with these two kids. And women see me as a single guy and they're like what's wrong with him, you know, with these two kids, and it's really hard, whereas if I was a woman, every one of those ladies would have wanted to, you know, get to be, get to know me, be friends with me, all that stuff.
Speaker 4:So well, they want to get to know you, they want to be friends with you, because women are naturally so competitive.
Speaker 5:That's fair, but what I'm saying is it's harder, I think, as a guy, for me, because really what I'm trying to do, I have kids that are three and five and before I got my daughter into school it was very difficult for me to help her make new friends, because it was hard for me to approach other people and have them I don't know follow up with anything that I wanted to do, or just get together and and and hang out in the park with kids and let the kids get together and know each other. You know.
Speaker 1:And that was.
Speaker 5:my whole goal is is building up not only a community for me but a community for my kids so that they could have friends in their in my neighborhood and get to know kids and get socialized that way, because when they go to their moms it doesn't happen. They sit on the couch and do nothing and don't get out of the house. So I've taken that upon myself to get that done and it's hard with that double standard right now. I must say.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. That's where guys and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts would hopefully be a good avenue in.
Speaker 5:Well, my hope is that I'm going to get both of my kids in the school this fall, because my wackadoo ex does not want my son to go to school and he's three, and I've even offered to pay for preschool and she's not wanting to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So let's put a bow on it here. I think you guys just pretty succinctly, starting with Ken, summarize kind of what we're talking about the state of dads, the isolation and the challenges in being vulnerable and getting out there and getting the support that they need and deserve, and then the challenges of kind of the general consensus of dads and their value, etc. So, if we can give a grade, if we can give a grade, we'll go around and give a grade as to the state of dads in 2025. Right now, what grade would you give it and why? And so I guess I will start, since I asked the question and I've thought about this before, I would give it a C and I give it a C. So, looking from two different perspectives, I would give it a C from the guys in a positive way, because the guys that I come in contact with that are in part of the community, are so conscientious Guys, like Gordon and others, that care so much that he's got his kids today. He cares so much to come on to share with other guys about the community, as I asked him to do so much, that, uh, that it gets. This is what drives me every day and gives is gives me hope because they care so much about their kids and they care so much about their future. I know the hell that he's been through. I know the hell that some of these guys have been through through no fault of their own, other than maybe what we talked about a relational dynamic that they've gotten into because of whatever childhood uh issues, uh, whatever childhood issues. And now they're being destroyed. And we didn't even get into the issue of suicide or anything else. Divorced dads are eight to nine times more prone to suicide than other men, which is already 70 or 80% of all suicides. So it's absolutely like a health issue that should be at the forefront of every news channel and everywhere else. So I give it a C because these men are just fighting all the time and it's absolutely amazing. But I give it a C on the backside because we're not.
Speaker 1:If this was anybody or anything or any other class of people out there, this would be a national emergency. It would be all over the place. It would be dads. You know, Ken referenced the studies. There's not a single study anywhere in the entire world for the duration of history that has any negative connotation about fathers being involved in their kids' lives.
Speaker 1:It's only all positive, and so we have the information, but there's a disconnect because of whatever the agenda is which we're not going to get to, we haven't gotten into, and so that's why I feel that we I'll wrap it up that we can move that to a B or to the A just by, as dads, in the context of this podcast, continuing to fight through what we need to fight through fighting for your time with your kids, making sure that you're doing the stuff to take care of yourself, to make sure that you can be present when you're with your kids and turn that tide so that we can be an example. So that's me. I gave it a letter C. Who wants to be next? You can be present when you're with your kids and turn that tide so that we can be an example. So that's me. I gave it a letter C. Who wants to be next? Ken Kirk go ahead.
Speaker 3:Go ahead. Kirk, as I was listening to you, I came up with a B. I came up with a B because I'm optimistic. I came up with a B. I came up with a B because I'm optimistic. Basically, I agree with everything you just said. I think I'm just that teacher that always rounds up, probably because I was that kid that always needed a teacher to round up to give me the benefit of the doubt. And I give men the benefit of the doubt these days. And, like I to a, I go to a b because I firmly believe that most men are good men. Um, you know, and and uh, there are some bad apples out there, but most men by far are good men.
Speaker 3:And speaking and thinking about myself back in you know those couple of instances when I was going through that, uh, I would say to that guy even if your marriage has failed, that doesn't make you a failure. And even if you're broke, busted and disgusted in every way, and if it looks like you've taken L's left and right, I can tell you down the road that it will get better. You will survive this. It will get better. Um, you will be. You will survive this. It will get better. Um, you know, just sometimes you got to embrace the suck in life to get through some of our mistakes, uh, but I'm optimistic that most good men that are out there will do what it takes.
Speaker 3:They'll listen to conversations like this. They'll connect with other guys. They'll connect with, you know, with a ken, with the jude, with the david. You know they'll connect with other guys. They'll connect with you know, with a Ken, with a Jude, with a David. You know they'll connect with the resources that it takes to get through this thing. You don't have to get through it alone and so, like I said I would, I would go B just because I'm more on the optimistic side.
Speaker 1:Good kid, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Well said, kirk. I liked it. Yeah. So I was thinking B as well. I wasn't thinking that I'm optimistic, but it was.
Speaker 2:I really believe in men, I believe in guys, but the reason why it wouldn't be an A or anything like that is because we are facing incredible obstacles in a ton of different places, of different places. But the obstacles and Kirk, you were kind of alluding to it with the embrace, the suck, it's like obstacles are the way to grow. Obstacles are the way that we find out who the hell we really are. That's how we find out how, building our own confidence, building our identity, finding out what we're capable of, that we're not so damn fragile that we can handle really difficult things. And I think, as we find those things out because those obstacles are there that's how we discover who we are.
Speaker 2:And being able to embrace that and being able to take responsibility rather than being responsible for your woman's mood or whatever, being able to say I'm going to be responsible for me and that is what I have control over, nothing else and being able to do those things and move forward. I think guys do it all the time and even though things are difficult, we can make something happen by embracing it and building our strength and getting through that. So yeah, I would give it a B. Awesome Gordon.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'd give it a B too, and it's funny that you mentioned the suck Kirk, because that's what I called my first year was the year of suck, and I've gotten through it and the light is shining bright right now.
Speaker 5:So I got to say that honestly, it's like I think the cards are stacked against us. Things are getting better. Could be a lot worse Talk to anyone in California who's going through this process. So at least there's states that aren't where you can get 50-50 right off the bat and not have to deal with the nonsense like you have to in California. Honestly, one of the things that I am impressed by is just the caliber of guys that I've run across through this process who have been able to help me step up and just be there for people who are going through this whole thing. So, honestly, I believe in, I'm an optimist at heart and I believe in all the folks who've helped me through. So all good Nice.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice, david, wrap us up.
Speaker 4:I'm going to be the contrarian here. I'm going to say it's a minus, and the reason why was it? It's a D or a D minus D minus.
Speaker 1:Okay, shoot, I wasn't the lowest one, okay, okay.
Speaker 4:And the reason why I say that is because we're under attack as men in our society on so many fronts. Yeah, in fatherhood is probably just like the tip of the spear on this one, because it's an easy one to attack, because in family court, whoever's the biggest victim is the biggest winner and, as we all, know's greatest strength is their ability to play a victim.
Speaker 4:They cry and all of a sudden everybody comes rushing in white knighting and taking care of them. So men are under attack on several different fronts. I think fatherhood is hugely under attack because there's money involved, because it's a huge factor in the domestic violence lobby and that entire industry, which we haven't even really touched on at all. That's a huge factor in all of this. I think society as a whole is undergoing a massive shift and, as a consequence, women are fighting back and fatherhood is one of the most important places to attack men, because it cuts right to the heart of who they are, and if you attack a man on his career, it's like whatever he'll go get a new one. You take away a man's kids like you're taking away his entire purpose, and so I think we're.
Speaker 4:I think men are under attack. I think dads are under attack and I think the state of fatherhood is definitely. We need dads to like stand up and stand up and start going into court and getting more attention and more time and start being the men that they were meant to be, because kids aren't seeing it and they need to see more of it because, as you pointed out, even the superheroes in the Incredibles. He's hobbled because he's violent. It's like no violence is necessary sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we got three Bs, a C and a D minus, which I think is fair, considering it probably should have been what's the state of dads in the context of our society? What's the state of dads and the dads that we're seeing? Because I think we all agree that dads are tremendous and we are all involved with and surrounded by a lot of tremendous dads that are working incredibly hard, that are great dads that sometimes have a lot of cards stacked against them and are persevering. But the flip side of that is the state of dads in the context of in our society, and where we're at is difficult and challenging. It is not, I would say not even close to where it needs to be in, where we can have a healthy dynamic between men and women, and so, unfortunately, that's where we're at and so, unfortunately, that's where we're at. But again, that's what each one of you I know is working really hard to change and either stem the tide or change the momentum completely. So I sincerely appreciate each one of you on that context, but just at the heart of it, as being tremendous dads, each one of you, and on this Father's Day. So I'm just going to close in wishing you all a happy Father's Day, wishing each one of those men that are dads that are out there happy Father's Day and, if you're going through it, get involved with the Dwarfs Advocate community, one of the communities of any of the gentlemen, that's uh, that are on today.
Speaker 1:Uh, we'll have some information in the show notes If anything resonated with you. Uh, sharing uh this far and wide with everybody is good, because, uh, I can't do all the work, ken can't do all the work, david can't, like we can't all do the work. So that's why, the more people we have on, the more things that might resonate with one or somebody else. I want you guys to get the help that you need. Everybody's help is potentially different, so get involved where it's going to be the best for you and your family. So, fellas, thanks so much. It's always an honor having you guys on and listening, but this was really special to be able to share. We could probably talk for like five guys on and listening, but this was a really special to to be able to share. We could probably talk for like five more hours and do a Joe Rogan style long form three hours. So maybe we'll think about that sometime in the future, but but this was awesome. I think we talked about this a lot of good stuff. Thanks so much. God bless guys.
Speaker 2:Thank you Appreciate it.
