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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
Dads face unique issues during and after divorce. We identify and address the issues relevant to divorced/divorcing dads and create an action plan to survive and thrive!
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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
263 - How Smart Surveillance Is Impacting Divorce and Custody Cases
The technological landscape of divorce has changed dramatically with the rise of smart home devices and surveillance technology. What happens when your Ring doorbell captures crucial evidence for your custody case? Or when your ex uses recordings against you in court? Family law attorney Sondra Douglas joins us to navigate this complex terrain.
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Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for tuning in this week and we've got a very exciting at least exciting for me topics, something that you've heard us talk about, particularly if you've been on some of our group coaching calls, but that's smart homes. We're calling it, we're titling it, smart homes, surveillance and the law, but we're going to be really talking around how smart surveillance is impacting divorce and custody cases. I've got a phenomenal expert attorney with me today that I'll introduce in just a moment. That's going to share her expertise around that as well. But before we jump in, just a reminder go check out the brand refresh at the website at thedivorcedadvocatecom.
Speaker 1:All kinds of great things there, particularly the divorce quiz. I know we had some issues and some links broken with that. If you have taken it in the past, hey, it's always a good idea to take it again. See kind of where you're at in your process compared to where you were before and compared to where others are at in the process as well. This is going to give you some immediate feedback and then also give you an opportunity to connect with me and chat with it if you'd like to. So go check that out at thedivorcedadvocatecom. Okay, joining us today is Sondra Douglas. She is a compassionate and resourceful attorney known for fiercely advocating for her clients, whether in family law or personal injury cases. With a background as a Maryland public defender and more than a decade running her own practice, she now brings her sharp instincts and creative problem solving to the law firm of Stein Sperling. Sandra is a true lawyer of the people and we're excited to have her on the show. Sandra, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here with you this afternoon and what a wonderful platform that you have so people can know more about the challenges and how to navigate going through a divorce.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, thank you, I appreciate that and, as you probably experienced with your clients doing something for the first time, you're never certain, right, whatever that might be a new sport, a new whatever, a hobby, but divorce is the same way, and we all get into this and we just don't know what to expect.
Speaker 1:And so that's the whole premise of what we did and what we're trying to do here, and so I really appreciate, from a family law attorney standpoint, coming on and sharing some of that, because oftentimes the first thing and the first person that they talk to is the, the, the attorney, right, which isn't necessarily probably the best strategy, because we were you and I were talking offline, like the mental, emotional aspects around it, and uh, who files first and who gets served, and Dr Bruce Fisher's done a whole book about uh, about this, about uh being the um, being uh, the, uh, the, the one that has been, uh served, and uh, the, the one that has been served and the one that's serving and the one that gets served, and how there's a different mental emotional aspects around that, et cetera, and I found that family law attorneys oftentimes don't really understand the whole dynamic, but it sounds like you do, and so I appreciate you coming on and talking, but we're going to be talking about something very specific, but already talking with you just offline, I appreciate the fact that you understand some of that and it is.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's overwhelming. You know, sometimes my clients at Steins Rowing, they will take it personal, you know where they're served, how they're served, who served them, and so sometimes it's emotional, but just really quickly since you did bring that up, it's about having the right team in place, you know, and that may include a mental health provider or that may include a financial advisor. It's really, you know, it's like putting together the perfect band, except for it's the reshaping of what your family looks like. I often tell my clients hey, we're reshaping. I understand the emotional component. I understand this is not ideal of how you thought your family would look, but it will be okay. It'll be a different dynamic and we just have to navigate how we move through that and what the boundaries are in place and what your goals are. And education is key, right?
Speaker 2:So you start off with the education I like to start off with the educational component of the who, what, when, where and why and go over that and when clients, they are emotional when they first come to you, and so you may have to repeat it a couple of times because they're getting over the shock that they're even in this situation. So they may not be processing all the information that I am trying to download to them. So that's just a part of the educational process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is exactly why we've created the Divorced Advocate Communities to save you and others time in having to deal with some of that mental, emotional part of it and figuring that out. You and I were talking about and I know that a lot of the men in the community know and understand and have already heard this from me being served. You're a little bit behind the eight ball, and so trying to think about something like we're going to talk about today smart surveillance, how that impacts your case, what you should and shouldn't be doing man, that's like so far down the list that when I start talking about it or when they start experiencing something that's going on with that, they're just flabbergasted and so yeah, so, yeah, so that's great. Before we jump in, just share a little bit. So you're a public defender. Why did you decide to start getting into where couples are arguing and going through divorce and have that be your career choice at this point?
Speaker 2:So I often get asked okay, so how did you get here? How did you get here? And you know, I say that, you know, you that, saying that you can make plans, and then God laughs you know I thought I was going to be a corporate attorney.
Speaker 2:I had no idea that I would be doing family law, but I started out. I went to the University of Baltimore School of Law. It became evident to me through those CIPRO classes and litigation classes that we took that I was a litigator and that means that I belong in the courtroom and that's where I thrive. That means that.
Speaker 2:I belong in the courtroom and that's where I thrive. And so that became apparent to me. I thought, ok, well, what best way to get experience in the courtroom, get to know the judges, the clerks, get to know opposing counsel who I may be facing, but to go to the public defender's office. So I went there. I started out at the public defender's office, stayed there for about three and a half years. I then said, ok, well, let's try this private practice. I worked for a small firm before then opening up my own, which I thoroughly enjoyed for 13 years, before being recruited to come to Steins Burling. And you know, just leveling up my, my litigation skills, leveling up my litigation skills and that's a very quick, quick summary of how I landed at Stein Spurling and had joined forces with some dynamic partners of mine, and it's been a wonderful experience that I'm thoroughly enjoying.
Speaker 1:That's terrific. I think that your point is pretty funny about kind of lice twists and turns, and I used to say on this show, like I've seen it all right, and I stopped saying that because as soon as I started saying that it's like God's like, oh really, well, let's see if you've really seen it all. Try this one on for size and see that. So yeah, so that's interesting.
Speaker 1:So then let's talk about the surveillance component around this, because when I first get a guy that comes into the community, a dad that comes into the community and we might be on a group call or individual coaching and he has something that's starting to move seemingly towards high conflict but not even yet but you can start to hear the language happening or the dynamics happening, which you might not always get to see or hear until after the fact, but oftentimes I'll get to see and hear it developing at almost in real time.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, unfortunately, we'll start talking about okay, well, you've got to be aware of this and you've got to be covering yourself if you are going to start recording stuff and you need to know what those laws are. And so let's first talk about there's one specific component, which is two-party consent law. There are some states and we have international people listening to, and so that would be different wherever they're at. But there's different ways that the laws are in the different states, and one is two-party consent law and one is not, and so can you define so that we have some reference for our audience of what the difference is between two-party consent and non-two-party consent and why that's important?
Speaker 2:Sure, and I'm going to preface everything that I share here by saying I am admitted to practice law in Maryland and DC, so everything that I am sharing is based on that, so I won't be able to speak across. You know USA wide, but I can speak as to Maryland and DC law.
Speaker 1:And I'll add to that we're not giving legal advice to anybody. This is not a show about legal advice. We are just sharing what we know about the law and our experiences.
Speaker 2:Right. Leave it to a lawyer to just say we're putting these disclaimers out here. But one thing I will say is Marilyn, to answer your question, marilyn is a two-party consent and DC is not. You know you just need one party consent. So that's very important, um, and I would elaborate that. I see that come because of where we're located. You may have one client living in DC and one client living in Maryland, um, and the issue of recordings will come up.
Speaker 2:One thing I did want to say about your intro of being caught by surprise or the dad being caught by surprise. I can't stress enough how important it is to work with an interview, an attorney early, because you should be having those conversations when things are escalating or things are pivoting and turning. I often do know about them and sometimes it's because I was in the background pressing some buttons through my client. So it really is important to work with someone you trust and have that attorney on your team that you can share the text messages or the tone and the temperament of how things are evolving. So I did want to add that to something you had stated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you also mentioned basically the way we describe it here is you're putting your team together, and the sooner you're putting your team together, the better off you're going to be. And that's an attorney, that's hopefully a divorce coach, that's a financial somebody, a therapist as well, like all of that. And the sooner you do that, lots of folks say, well, I just want to do this, we want to figure it out, we want to go to mediation, we want to do that no-transcript.
Speaker 2:You know, that's why I said educating my client first.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you know I get calls all the time oh no, no, no, I don't want to do the litigation. I don't want to do that. I want to do mediation, and you can. However, you need to know what you're entitled to or what you're not entitled to, or what the court is separation agreement you still need to have that person on your team Because, like you said, you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2:And I'll get the call that says, hey, we went to mediation, hey, we have this agreement, Can you review it for me? And then it's like I'm brought on so late that I'm like did you already tell them you're going to do X, Y and Z? And then I'm like, well, I have to advise you that you're being very gracious, or you didn't necessarily have to do that. So you know, I can't stress that enough. I know, I know we're in a climate where people do not. They're like I want to mediate, I don't want the contentious, long, litigious process and your attorney that hears you will hear you and they will act accordingly. But you still need to know all your options.
Speaker 2:And so choosing mediation does not mean that you're, that you are not necessarily choosing mediation. It just means your your litigation. You're looking at all your options. Yeah, yeah, one, yeah, 100% 100%, you're coming up with that game plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, you're putting your team together, you're getting educated. So that's the biggest thing we talk about all the time. You just can't bury your head and you've got to spend the time learning what your statutes are in your jurisdiction. You need to spend the time getting up to speed, learning so that you can speak intelligently to your attorney about what's going on. And just like anything, any profession there are bad plumbers, there are bad anything in any profession You've got to be somewhat educated in what's going on and be able to talk intelligently and just don't put blind trust, because we just put blind trust and that's when things go wrong. And if you just want somebody to take it off your plate and handle it for you, that's just not going to be good. It's not going to be good for you, but it's not going to be good for your kids, right? That's just not. It's not going to work out well.
Speaker 2:You have to have somebody you have to have somebody Exactly. You have to have some buy-in. You have to have some buy-in, exactly, and your attorney has to learn what kind of parent you are and what kind of. You know what are your goals. You know what does that look like.
Speaker 1:So it's going over all of that. So back to the two-party consent. So two-party consent is when both people must agree to being recorded for it to be something that is admissible in court, correct?
Speaker 2:You potentially could. I don't want to say that it will be admissible, but that's like the first threshold, you know, was there permission on both parties?
Speaker 1:If there's not permission on both parties, then you may have a challenge getting it introduced into evidence Right and then with single-party consent, just means that you can record conversations or videos whenever, wherever you want and potentially they can, and there's just a higher probability that those can still also be admissible in court as evidence Right. Right.
Speaker 2:But before I would want to go over the facts surrounding the reporting you know, because sometimes clients will be like, oh, I have this and I'm like, how'd you get that? You know so you have to go into and what does it show? Sometimes it's telling clients early on like don't you know, don't do that or don't send that, and sometimes you know they feel bad because they don't know. You know people don't know it goes. People don't know what they don't know. But that's why it's important that we educate them and advise them accordingly.
Speaker 1:Right, and so would you say, in those jurisdictions where it is only single party consent, that you really need to prepare yourself and go through the thought process of there is a probability that I am going to be recorded at any point during this process. I need to either be aware one be aware of that, but two perhaps take steps myself in order to be doing that as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. Okay, and, just from an attorney's perspective, share why that is important for somebody that is starting this process. Because, like you and I mentioned, you and I discussed the majority of men are served right, and so inevitably when I'm talking to guys about this, they're just, they're so far behind in their thought process this doesn't even show up on the radar. And then when I say, hey, this is something you need to pay, they're like seriously, my beautiful bride that I love so much, you know however many years and I had this many kids they're like would they ever do that to me? Like, and if the answer is yes, hell yes, and you really need to start paying attention. Why?
Speaker 2:and a part of you know this goes back in preparing for us to have this conversation. I thought about it. You know some people just they expect the good out of others, right? And my job is not just to be okay, yes, yes, yes. Say yes to my client, right, that's not even a word. Yes, but not to always just say yes, you're absolutely correct. Part of my job is to advise the client and advise them on where the pitfalls are, where could you be at risk exposure? And so a part of that is having that discussion. If you have a spouse that feels emboldened by, I got your moments you need to be prepared to think, okay, this could be recorded.
Speaker 2:I also think, in the year of 2025, where everyone has a cell phone and everyone is recording, you should be thinking that way anyway, whether you're in a two party consent or one party consent state, you should be thinking litigation is going on or settlement discussions are happening. I need to, I need to cross my T's and dot my I's, because someone is watching whatever this person has said or is trying to frame as their strategy. That should always be in the forefront of your mind, like how can I make sure that I and I always tell my clients you know we're going to fly high, right? Because with recording, sometimes judges, the feedback that I have gotten is like okay, is this a petty moment? You know, are you now trying to.
Speaker 2:I gotcha, or you didn't do this, or you didn't pack Sally or Johnny's snack, or look at this picture of molded food, If I can tell you how many pictures of molded food or videos of molded food is, and I'm like okay, and clients think, oh, here's the fiery gun. You know I've got a video of lunch.
Speaker 2:Maybe they didn't read the expiration marks or maybe they didn't. They got it wrong. You know, is that a recording that you want to risk when balancing out what will benefit your case versus harm your case out what will benefit your case versus harm your case? You need to have an attorney that you can have that conversation Because while you may think it's your smoking gun, a court may look at this and say, okay, this surveillance, you're going in my petty box and no judge will say, well, some depends on who you're before. May say like, okay, how relevant is that, ms Douglas? And you don't want that happening.
Speaker 2:You want to put on a case where only your relevant items, the evidence, is being presented to court.
Speaker 1:Right, and you mentioned flying high or taking the high road and I wanted to make the comment which you can still make sure that you're protecting yourself and your children by, especially in the one party consent states, by doing the recordings and still take the high road. It's just insurance, to make sure, and I can't tell you the number of times and I've experienced this myself personally with not having something recorded where I probably should have because I knew better, and then also having recordings that it really saved my butt and the thousands of other guys that I've talked to and many that have had these. Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about that a bit that have had these. Yeah, let's talk about that. So I represented um, a, an athlete, um, uh, a well-known athlete in the past, and one of the one of the things that he used to do was record because it, you know, if there was a, an I gotcha moment, it would be very costly for him to be in an I gotcha moment. And so, you know, part of our strategy was OK, you need to always be in public when you do these exchanges. You want to have someone in the car with you, not just having the camera rolling, but also have that independent third party with you to be able to observe and protect you. So in that situation, he was able to be able to always do that. But, yeah, we were successful on getting a protective order denied because of that footage, because we took those steps.
Speaker 2:But that came from I learned, I learned about his significant other very well, like we had like OK, I, you know, she's asking me to meet here. What should I do? And I'm there, play by play, to say, ok, this is what you should do. All right, send it to me. What do we got? And the court was in that situation. The court was very upset with the opposing party because it's like your petition is not matching up to what this video you know is saying. So you do have those incidences where sometimes having the recording is helpful, especially if it's in a public place in court in having the evidence and being able to utilize it as refuting maybe some false allegations like you just described.
Speaker 1:Is it still beneficial if you are in a two-party, Because there's like a fine line right If you are recording, it's a two-party consent. It might not be admissible in court, but maybe it is possible to utilize that in refuting a false allegation from somebody that is using that in the context of a custody case.
Speaker 2:So what you are and I want to make sure that I hear you completely so what you are, and I want to make sure that I hear you completely. I think what you're asking is about impeachment, what we call impeaching a witness.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Where a witness may get on the stand and say, no, I wasn't at Safeway to exchange the children and he showed up there by himself and I don't know what happened, or something like that, and you're trying to show that, no, you were at Safeway. Here's this video showing you were at, you know, Safeway. I would say, in that incident, in that scenario, again, I would have to it's fact specific. You know I'm making up these facts as we go on. But if it's, if, if they're trying to say like my client showed up with a baseball bat and was like hitting her or doing something like that, that could be helpful, Um, and the impeach part against her testimony, we may could use that. Um, I still have to lay the foundation of how the video came to be, have it authenticated, where did it come from and what I may do. I may end up, instead of using the cell phone recording, I may go and get the recording outside of the grocery store. If there's cameras around, I may go that route. And then there's tools of. I don't want to bore you with rules of evidence, but then there's other rules of evidence I can use, you know, certificate, business record. I can get it in another way. So part of the I want to make sure I'm answering your question A part of the issue can be that how you use the video.
Speaker 2:Maybe the video is to say okay, what time did you take this video? It happened at 1.52. All right, let's go Now. I know exactly where to pinpoint to get the video from somewhere else, In case the video that they took in the car, for some reason, based on the rules of evidence, is not admitted, I wouldn't be able to get it in. So it really is specific. Maybe I use it to get another piece of evidence, Maybe I use it.
Speaker 1:It just really depends, I know people and so no, yeah, so no, no. You answered my question and, and, and the question was because, what, what? What I experienced and what I hear a lot is that the dads are wary of doing that because they feel like it's going to cross a legal line and that they could get legally in trouble for recording and then that's going to look bad for them. But what I'm thinking about when advising them and what we're talking about in this context with the dads that are listening, that it is just something to do exactly what you described. Even if it is a two-party consent, state or area, then it's still not a bad idea to have recordings, less about oh, I was at the Safeway picking them up and more of a false allegation of abuse to the kids or something else, where you just say that just didn't happen and this does happen.
Speaker 1:These false allegations do happen, guys, and some of them can be mitigated, even in a two-party consent, by having some sort of recording. That is maybe it's not admissible, but maybe you can do something. Your attorney can do something else like you just described find a public camera or send it even over and say this just didn't happen. So if you're going to pursue this area, it's probably not a good idea, et cetera. It's just again having the ability to cover yourself and have that, even if it's not something that can be admissible in court.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I also. When you were speaking, I thought about the situations what comes to mind is like the DSS case, right of child abuse, or my spouse is not caring for the child or they're being abused. In those types of situations where it's like, okay, well, do you have a nanny cam? Are you able to say, look? Or and it may depend again on the facts it may involve me coming in and saying you know what you're making these lofty allegations? We're just going to keep the nanny cam rolling.
Speaker 2:I just want you to know that, because you've made this an issue for us, my client and I, this is what we're going to do, you know. Then it's like, well, don't come saying later.
Speaker 2:Well, no, you know, my child didn't consent or you know you start like, look, I'm putting you on notice, since you're making these allegations. I have to protect myself and this is what I choose to do. So you know you sometimes do have to think outside of the box to protect the client and make sure that they're okay and when those types of allegations start arising, that especially dads of girls, right you have dads of girls that have represented a lot of dads of girls and they're just like, oh my goodness, I have to take her to the bathroom.
Speaker 2:What do I do? You know? And so it's, it's thinking through all the ways that we can protect the client.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So let's talk a little bit. Then also, there is a difference between doorbell cameras, and so this is something that I did not know that makes that evidence and those recordings a little bit different than, say, if you're recording in the exterior or the interior of your home. Share a little bit about those difference of doorbell cameras, why they're different and what can be. What is a, what is a good standard operating procedure of how to how to function with those.
Speaker 2:OK. So the first thing I want you to think about is the standard is expectation of privacy. I want you to think about is the standard is expectation of privacy? Okay, If you have a, a camera, outside of your house?
Speaker 2:um and you have neighbors and you have other uh houses that are on that street. What is your, your expectation of privacy? As far as you know, this is my yard. I want to keep the flowers, I want to mow my yard. That's a different standard versus. I have a camera that's on our garage and the direction is towards the street and you see everyone driving by. You see everyone walking by.
Speaker 2:I've been successful in getting into evidence. If there is a doorbell camera that you know, you come up, you see it, it's in plain view, it's in plain sight. The expectation is, it's working, you know. So that expectation of privacy is not the same as maybe you are having a nanny cam in your house and your ex-spouse comes over to the house and when you were married to them you didn't have the nanny cam, but now you do. Well, then it's announced to them this is being recorded, this conversation is being recorded.
Speaker 2:The video and the audio is being recorded so that you can cross over that hurdle of them saying the opposing party saying why expect a privacy in your home? Because I've never known you to have a nanny. There's also been situations where I have clients. They live in an apartment and they're recording and the voices are raised and they're yelling or there's other people in the house. You can shift that argument where if you're not home alone and you have guests over in the house, what's your expectation of privacy? If you're in an apartment building yelling to the top of your lungs, what's the expectation of privacy that you're not going to be recorded lungs what's the expectation of privacy that you're not going to be recorded? So it is very much fact specific.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you this with the doorbell cams and the exterior cams generally, can you say that even in two party consent areas or states that that is probably going to be considered a public area that doesn't require two-party consent, that it's just being recorded? It's being recorded whether it's both video and audio at any given time, because I've actually had clients that have had this literally save their custody cases because their ex was on video cam like completely denigrating them to the, to the neighborhood and to neighbors who were coming over and talking to them, et cetera, and because it was outside, it was on the camera, they were on the front porch and she was doing all this stuff. It was all admissible and so as soon as they started with he's a bad dad and he's doing this and we've got all these witnesses who actually line up with the video of who they're on the cam that she's been basically coaching on how to denigrate him. It ended like immediately because they had it.
Speaker 2:I call that the setup right. You know, you set them, you know, and then you come in with your cross-examination, with the video of them, you know, acting irate or whatever the video may show, um, and that that that usually will be successful.
Speaker 2:Also, I want to note too, like if you're recording outside your kids' extracurricular activities, you know, you know if they're at an extracurricular activity and you want to record, like the pickup in the exchange, you know, do we have people coming in and out? What's the expectation of privacy there? You may be successful in getting those types of videos in as well. And getting those types of videos in as well. I think a public place's expectation of privacy is the standard. Can you get over that?
Speaker 1:Okay. So essentially we could. A general good rule of thumb is if it's a public place, then you're more than likely okay to be recording something, whether it's a two-party, one-party consent place, because the expectation isn't there. There's not the expectation of privacy. So if you're doing pickups and drop-offs and they're videoing you or you're videoing them, okay, like I've had guys just complain about that, that they get videoed every time and they're like you know what? Okay, wear a clown suit or whatever, make it fun, you're not doing anything wrong, so don't worry about it. It's a public area, that's fine. It's just going to happen. I don't know, you don't know what they're, what's in their mindset or whatever it is, but that's just a public place and that's fine. Is that that's safe to say?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that's a good assessment. People also, you know the social media, you know you want to be careful about. Even though you're like, ok, fine, you're recording me, they can also say, look, I'm not giving you permission to record me. And if they don't feel comfortable and they want that to stop, and there's other options in communication that we can reach out to opposing party as if that's happening. But I think that I think that it's just important for the person to know and maybe express hey, please don't post this on social media. Like that's embarrassing, like it's not in the best interest of the children to have their pickups and drop-offs shared on social media.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's talk about that and categorize it under stupid things not to do. Right, like don't record stuff. You're not doing this. You're not litigating this case on social media to see which friends are going to line up with you, and not doing this. You're not. Uh, you're not litigating this case on social media to see which friends are going to line up with you, and not. There's absolutely no benefit to to doing something stupid like recording that and putting it on and getting getting feedback or whatever. Just don't do that. That's stupid. No matter if you're right or if you're wrong, just don't do it.
Speaker 2:That's, just that's just the short term thrill that you may feel can easily backfire. And because the court you must always consider that the court is hearing evidence and they're looking for who is the parent that will be able to put their own feelings aside.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And even the actions of the other party, even if they were, you know, wrong, not necessarily in line with co-parenting skills, to make decisions that are best for the children. And if you're a, you know, a constant social media poster about your co-parenting and things that are happening and things that are going on, it just I have not, I have seen that it just doesn't go well, you know. Join a private group, you know, but even in that, you know, we can, in discovery, ask for your social media postings and communication. You know. Join something off social media, you know. Maybe ask for your divorce coach to refer you to a small group and and vet your grievances there. Don't, don't do it on social media.
Speaker 2:It just it makes for a horrible line of questioning Right.
Speaker 1:Actually a safe practice would just get off social media during your divorce. There's going to be little to no benefit to being on it During it. You're going to be tempted to do stupid stuff. There's all kinds of crappy information out there around divorce, whether it's legal advice or mental, emotional advice, et cetera. Really and that's not a slam on social media it's just that you got enough going on in your head. You got enough going on in your life.
Speaker 1:Taking that break from social media during that time there's only good that could come out of it and there's going to be less temptation to do super stuff that's going to then impact your case, which then is going to impact your life and your kids' lives for years and years to come.
Speaker 1:So just think of it that way Taking a six-month or a year sabbatical from social media is just going to help you for 10 or 15 or however many years you're going to have going forward with your kids, because if you screw up something like that, it's going to impact your case. It's going to have a long-term implication. So just try to get off it and, like you said, join the Divorced Advocate community or find a meetup group or a church group, support group or 12-step group, if there's something like Codependence, anonymous or something like that, where you can then get the not only be able to share your grievances and talk through things, but get some help and support around that, because if your first instinct is to go to social media and post something, you probably have some deeper issues you need to be working on. So that's great advice and some of it may not even be intentional.
Speaker 2:I want to put this warning there. You know they may. You know you may not be saying, oh, she upset me so bad. Today I'm going to air out on social media what's happening. That may not be your intentional thought, but it could be a simple inbox this happened to a client about. There was a simple inbox where it's like you know, I heard you did this to your wife and dot dot dot. You know it's a bait and don't take the bait. You know, because then you get into discussing and then it can be used not for your benefit, but to say, oh, did you know your husband is on, you know, inboxing and saying all kinds of horrible things about you. So I want to put that out there. We're not saying you're bad. We're not saying that you're going to intentionally do something wrong, but it could just be used against you and not helpful.
Speaker 1:Right, you and not helpful.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's a great point, too, that we should also mention around in the context of what we talked about in the beginning, which is you should just have the expectation that you're likely being recorded somehow audio, video or whatever.
Speaker 1:And this, especially important, if you're still cohabitating, right, sharing a same space is you got to be Ward Cleaver, basically and that might actually be a reference for some of you younger folks listening that don't know who Ward Cleaver is you basically need to be towing the line all the time. Don't get into, don't be baited, don't get into the arguments, definitely don't get into any physical and just make sure to walk away from anything that could be perceived or that is something that is going to be brought into court or shared with the other side, and that's seriously even just arguments. Right, you just want to avoid any and all of that and step away. And if you need to have a third party, like your attorney or your therapist or a family therapist if you guys are in that context, deal with it Then do that. Do not get involved to where it escalates to where it's going to be on recording.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Agreed. Okay, good, that's all I need Agreed from the expert that's going to have to deal with the aftermath of figuring this out if you don't heed this advice.
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, steps to the dads that maybe have just been served recently, are starting this process and they're maybe still cohabitating like I described and they want to make sure that they're taking some of these first important steps. What would those be? In particular, around the recording, things to be aware of, like the surveillance. What should they do? What shouldn't they do Some of these first steps?
Speaker 2:So one of the first steps, of course, I would say, is start interviewing for attorneys. Right, talk to people who have went through a divorce. Know what your communication? Okay, but you know if you if you you may not fully know, I should say, but as far as how frequently you would want to speak to your attorney, but you know, if you want to speak to your attorney every day, just because that may be calming and soothing and may be expensive, but you know calming and soothing, then know that so that you can articulate that to the attorney that you're interviewing. You know, know the questions to ask. Know yourself, right, know yourself.
Speaker 2:Talk about expectations. What are the expectations? What is the process? What's the steps of litigation or mediation? What does the steps look like? To choose a mediator? You know, is that attorney familiar with working with a different array of mediators? But number one I want to also say, so this is one A, I would say Don't feel pressured to match the, feel compelled, without the advice of your attorney, to feel like you have to do the same. Less is more, less is more sometimes. And so sometimes, being the parent, that's not always having the cell phone out and really taking the time to enjoy time with your children and focus on them.
Speaker 2:A court will appreciate that right. So don't let the smart tech shouldn't replace the smart parenting skills being attentive, being in your children's world, knowing what they need and meeting those needs and then communicating what those needs are to your co-parent. That will carry a lot of weight with the board. While your spouse is over here recording every interaction, you're sending an email to talk about Kate and Samantha's homework or summer camp, or how they did in the new activity or the new sports teams.
Speaker 2:If you could fill your communication with those types of examples, it demonstrates your ability to what I call be outside of the petty box, right.
Speaker 2:So I think that that those are two things that I would really stress to your to your dads and trust. If you decided on an attorney, trust and talk strategy. You should not just be talking about all right, on June 30th, we have to do this and do that. What is the long-term goal? I think clients communicating to them the why helps them with the investment in the process. Right, if I know why I'm telling you to say this or do this and how this will make a beautiful exhibit it helps them to be like OK, let me do it right now.
Speaker 2:So those are tips I would.
Speaker 1:OK, that's good, and I think that kind of takes us full circle from what we were talking about earlier, which is you can still take the high road right Everything that you just described with still working effectively with your soon-to-be ex and starting that process of co-parenting effectively, but still also keeping in the back of your mind you want to prepare for the worst. So maybe that is that you are going to install a nanny cam if there's a single party consent, and you're just going to have it running all the time, just in case something's going to happen, or you put that doorbell cam up so that you've got that going. But that's not your focus. Again, you're planning for the worst, worst and you're hoping for the best. You're going to your attorney, you're finding an attorney, you're making sure what you're doing and how you're communicating is the most effective way for your case. Hopefully you're finding some outside support around what you said, because if they're going to be using you for therapy, that's going to be really expensive.
Speaker 1:And so go find a divorce coach right, which I highly recommend for everybody and anybody all the time anymore going through this. It's enough of an established industry where there are good divorce coaches that are going to help you and it's going to be well worth your money. Because if you're using Sandra as your therapist and your attorney, I mean that's great. She don't want to do that, but it's going to be a buttload of billable hours and so you're going to save some money by not doing that and find a coach, find a therapist and do that and put your team together, but you'll have Sandra and your attorney that's going to help you through this process, going to help you talk about what you should be, what could be working If there is something that comes up. You've just got yourself covered. You're still walking that high road, but you're still preparing for the worst case scenario. Sound good?
Speaker 2:Yes, and my role in the band, as I call it, or the team, is to strategize the case and execute Right. It's to strategize the case and execute right. You, if you're having a very hard time, an emotional time, you need that support. And I tell my clients that's like one of my first intake questions Do you have a therapist that you're working with or would?
Speaker 2:you like for a recommendation, because if you don't have that, you can't necessarily be your best self to show up, and we need that, your kids need that. Forget about your attorney. You need that, your children deserve it and you deserve it. And so you still have to parent. Through this right, you're still creating memory, you're still doing all the things that need to be done as a parent with this added layer. So just having that system in place, and then sometimes the children need therapy, so it's, you know, everybody being on the same page to move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah and maybe this is a whole nother topic and maybe another podcast episode we can get together and talk about how they prepare strategy, how they're actually leading the strategy in working in conjunction with you, because you have a limited amount of time for you to work on their case, but they know the full breadth of everything that's happening.
Speaker 1:So they're the ones that have to start working on the strategy. Talk about what that is with you in the context of legalities and then go forward with that, because I see this all the time. Talk about what that is with you in the context of legalities and then go forward with that, Because I see this all the time, which is these guys leave the strategy just to the attorney and the attorney. I mean, that's like working with just a partial understanding of everything that's going on. You don't know everything that's going on, so that's their job to figure that out, to convey that to you, to prepare all of that, and then we're collaboratively with you in implementing that. So maybe I'll have you back on and we can talk about that.
Speaker 2:Because we could spend quite a bit of time talking about what that looks like. How does the attorney client relationship, what it looks like right, what it looks like to know, your options.
Speaker 2:I tell my clients I'm the one on the bus with you when I tell you all the different directions and possibility possible routes, mediation being one of the routes but technically you are in the driver's seat. You can say, oh, sandra, that's a little too aggressive. How about if and this is what I do day in, day out how about if we started this step and see what their response? And I will role play with my clients and I'm like okay, we started step one, but if they react this way, or if this is the response, I'm telling you we need to heed to this sign, and this is a sign that we may need to pivot and go this route. So, yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 2:Because we could talk about that all day yeah yeah. Come back and talk about what that looks like, because I think sometimes people don't know and so they don't know what to expect and they just leave it to the attorney to just Yep, exactly, and there's different styles. There's different work styles, and so it's knowing what works for you.
Speaker 1:Okay, great. Well, we'll leave that as a teaser for the dads listening in the future that we're going to come back and we're going to talk about that in a future episode, because I think that would be very beneficial. So, to the listeners, sandra, that are in the Maryland area that might want to connect with you, what is the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 2:Wonderful. Yes, If you have a matter in the DMV area and I will say, at Steins Burling, we are a full service law firm so we can help you with other matters as well, my phone number is 301-838-3274, or feel free to send me an email at sdouglas, that's Douglas with one S at steinsperlingcom. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fantastic conversation. I sincerely appreciate the fact that you share all these pearls of wisdom on a very sensitive topic, but a really, really important topic that can truly turn the tide of, like we said, like decades of what happens with the future of your family, depending on what you do or you don't do. So, thank you and anybody listening. If you found some value in this, please share it far and wide on social media. Leave us a star rating, leave a comment about this, connect with Sandra, connect with the community. That's why we're here. But, sandra, thank you so much. I sincerely appreciate you being on here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, my pleasure.
