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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
Dads face unique issues during and after divorce. We identify and address the issues relevant to divorced/divorcing dads and create an action plan to survive and thrive!
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DISCLAIMER: The purpose of this podcast is to inform not influence. It is not a substitute for professional care or advice by a qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and The Divorced Dadvocate Podcast & Website neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.
The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
264 - Lawyers Optional: The Untold Truth About Self-Representation
Ben Schooley, founder of The Pro Se Coach, pulls back the curtain on self-representation in divorce court, revealing insights from his journey through both an amicable split and a brutal four-year legal battle. His candid discussion transforms our understanding of what's possible when facing the family court system without an attorney.
Ben's website: https://prosecoachtx.com/
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Don't suffer in silence! Get relief from the pain and confusion of your divorce and schedule your FREE, No Obligation Coaching Consultation - schedule a time directly into my schedule at www.TalkWithJude.com.
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Music credit: Akira the Don
Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I sincerely appreciate it. We've got an incredible episode ahead and an expert that is tremendous. Something that we haven't talked too much about, probably at all in the five years that we've been together, but I think it's an important topic for us, and that's about being pro se, which is representing yourself during this divorce process. Before we jump in, though, just a reminder to check out the Divorced Advocate website at thedivorcedadvocatecom. All kinds of resources for you wherever you're at in your divorce, wherever you're at financially, from free to paid resources. Check out the divorce quiz, another opportunity to gauge where you're at in your divorce compared to thousands of others that have gone through it. So check it out at the divorce advocatecom. Get the help that you need and that you deserve.
Speaker 1:Okay, my guest, after his first divorce, had 50, 50 parenting time of his two kids. That was all the way since 2006. He enjoyed a wonderful relationship with their mother, never went to court, and life was as good as it could be for a single dad. But then his second marriage failed after having his third child, and what followed was an education he never wanted. Dozens of hearings, countless motions, hours upon hours of case law research, argument preparation and strategy formation. The four-year education was intense and he came out the other side a rather shattered individual. However, he also discovered very quickly that he had accumulated information and knowledge that is overwhelmingly valuable to those unlucky enough to be on the same adventure he was on.
Speaker 1:That's a nice way to describe it as an adventure. This led him to found the Pro Se coach. Please welcome, ben Schooley. Ben welcome, thanks, miriam. Hey, yeah, so adventure is a nice way to describe this right. Yeah, so adventure is a nice way to describe this right Going on a divorce and you've been on two of them, so you're twice as educated as I and some of the rest of us are. But start off by just sharing a little bit about why you decided then to get into pro se coaching, and maybe you can describe what pro se is and what pro se coaching is in that as well.
Speaker 2:Sure, I guess 18 years ago I had no idea what the word pro se meant. I married my high school sweetheart. We had two kids, really young, and you know we had no business being married, and so that ended quickly. And then you know we had no business being married, and so that ended quickly. Um, and then you know the actual process. I gosh, I think we were divorced in 90 days and you know we did 50, 50, no support. We were in our mid twenties, we were both broke as hell and off she went and off I went, and we just did seven days, seven off. And I tell you what I give her credit to this day. Um, when we split, our youngest was six months old and she was nursing him and she would bring me breast milk every day that he was with me and I tell you what at the time I was like I didn't appreciate it as much as I appreciate now to understand just how quite how rare that was for her to do that for me.
Speaker 2:And so, anyway, we moved on. I ultimately remarried, and, you know, still doing 50, 50 with the young, with the older two, that X ultimately moved to the end of my street even, and so the kids just came and went whenever they wanted, you know, and so they just kind of did whatever. But yeah, anyway, the second one broke down and and I filed for divorce there, and I entered that really naively because I simply told her, I mean, I knew she wanted out too, and so I just said, well, this will be super easy. I said I tell you what. You take everything we own and we'll just put our son on the same schedule as brother and sister Done, you can have anything you want. You know, that was my, that was my deal, but that didn't work out. And so four years of going through that, yeah. And so four years of going through that and, yeah, more hearings than I could possibly even count. The stack of paper I have, it's almost four feet tall, it's in my closet waiting for that child if he ever wants to see it.
Speaker 2:But I have not seen him now in almost four years. The other two I still talk to they're 22 and 19 now, so you know they aged out. But yeah, my youngest is 15. And he's been told and convinced that the reason I don't come around is my fault and that I don't want to. And anyway, I went through all of those hearings and all of that on my own.
Speaker 2:I was in a small town that I grew up in. I felt like I could handle it and I was completely blind to the process and just went in, put my football helmet in and just started crashing through whatever I needed to crash through. So, you know, I got laughed out of court more times than I could count and I went home and I redid whatever it was. I did wrong and refiled it and went back and did it again and yeah, and so when I got out of it, out of that whole journey again to my point about being small town lots of people knew I went through a really long, nasty divorce and so I couldn't go out to have a bite of dinner at night without three people stopping and asking me divorce questions, and I found that I knew most of the answers and so I started saying like well, you know you want to file this and don't forget that and make sure you include that. And they'd say, well, she spent that year Thanks a bunch, bud. And at the time I owned a little company and so I was still plugging away at that. But I just discovered that more and more and more of my time was spent, you know, in Facebook groups and other people starting to come toward me just asking questions and asking questions. And the next thing I know I'm doing this like five hours a day. Okay, so my, my real job started suffering really bad, but I see this just like tidal wave of people just start. I start. Next thing, I know I'm talking seven days a week, eight hours a day, with all these people. I don't even know them, um, so, anyway, that's where pro se coach came from, and so I incorporated that name and fired this up and I had no idea what would happen.
Speaker 2:I still had my little company and, uh, I got my first student. His name was wonderfully named Ben, and I walked through that with him and I was just talking about Ben the other day because he was my very first student and we got him really close to 50-50 and he settled and this is going on. Probably five years ago and about two, three weeks ago, somebody sent me a message and it was his obituary and he killed himself and his ex flared up several years later and he was having none of it and I just share that to say this is a really not enjoyable process and it's hard in a variety of ways and, most importantly, it's intimidating as hell because your children are on the line, your finances are on the line and, frankly, beyond that, beyond your own health, there's not anything else really that much important and your health is the other thing that's going to can potentially begin to be impacted. You know I went to the hospital four times, going through those four years with gigantic panic attacks that I'd never experienced before. I'm six foot two. I weigh about 210. At the time, when I got done, I weighed 162 pounds. I was a walking skeleton and I'm a guy who would have said I went through it all right. But to look back, you know, in fact that's how my whole journey actually stopped is that my mother called me? I was standing in the garage and she called me. You know I'm in year four of this. I weigh 160 pounds and I had recently, at that time, lost my brother my younger brother cancer, and she called and she said I watched your brother die and I'm watching you die, so you're done, we're stopping now. So you're, you're, you're waving the flag, buddy. And so I did, and anyway. But that propelled me into this pro state coach was born. And then, you know, within about six months I sold my little company I have, and so this is all I do now, full time. I love doing it.
Speaker 2:It's really hard job. You know, jude, I know you talk to a lot of people too. It's a very draining job there can be, because it's a nasty topic to talk about all damn day. You know it's drama and it's hurt and it's tears and it's fear and and it's all day. And you know, and I'm sympathetic to people because they blow me up on july the 4th with 26 text messages because they're freaking out about something. And you know, some part of me could be like man, leave me alone. It's July the 4th.
Speaker 2:But then I think back to my own journey. I know, if I had, if I knew of a guy like me, I'd have blown him up too. You know, because my head is in the clouds, I don't even know what day it is, much less to even be respectful of your time. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm freaking out and so, but I do. But I do, I'm very passionate about it. I argue with God a lot about this. I get very angry about it because I can't believe I went through what I went through so that I could help this guy over here. You know, I got to go through all that, so I wish I didn't know what. I know I wish I had a different job, but I'm glad for the one I got, that.
Speaker 2:I'm really, really passionate about this and I feel very strongly that if you're considering being pro se, the first thing you have to get over is fear, because I know you're intimidated by the process, but I swear on all that's holy Once you see a peek behind the curtain um, it is crayon, simple. Um, it is not difficult. Um, but it's intimidating. And so once you can get past the you know the the complexity, objection, you're on your way, cause from there, you, you learn really quick that you can weaponize the court system, not in a way to like punish your ex or like do awful things to this person, but rather almost as a financial sword, that you know. I mean it's a gross way to think about it, but, frankly, every divorce attorney anywhere will tell you the first person that runs out of money loses Right. And so, as a as a proficient pro se person, I can bleed you out so fast and make your head spin.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean we laugh about it all the time when I teach people how to do discovery and they go really, that's all discovery is. It's that simple, you know it takes us 45 minutes on a phone call and I can say, yeah, but I swear this is going to cost your ex, I don't know, eight grand to deal with that and potentially emotion, that compel and a little hearing. I mean it's crazy amounts of money. And so I always I use courts as like I try I tell people I don't like going to court over important things. I don't want to go to court and deal with kids and possession access If I can avoid it. I understand that that's unavoidable frequently, but I do like going to court over things that don't matter.
Speaker 2:Discovery, you know, enforcements, these types of things. Let's go all day every day and so those are. Those are good. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of a crash course in who I am and how I got here. I'm pushing 50 now. I just moved to central Texas from a little bit more south from the hill country and then, yeah, my 22 and 19 year old. My 22 year old is in Sweden now. I haven't talked to her in a good while. My 19-year-old was in a humongous car crash in May when he was living with me and he was in the hospital for almost six weeks and when he got out he once said I want to go back to mom's house.
Speaker 2:I think mom's a better nurse than I am, so he went to mom's but he's doing well. But yeah, the 15-year-old I do not see. So I was just thinking about today. He plays football. So football is going to fire up here at the end of August. So I guess those are my opportunities. I get to actually lay eyes on kids.
Speaker 1:So I'm looking forward to that. So I want to get into and talk maybe a little bit about that. I did want to make one point, though. So I find it very interesting that you've had both experiences with an ex right An ex that's absolutely tremendous that sees the value in their father being involved in their children's lives, did something like you described which was way above and beyond.
Speaker 1:And then another one who's, I'm assuming, probably alienating or doing at least not facilitating the process for the kids.
Speaker 1:Facilitating the process for the kids and I point that out because we get all kinds of dads that come to the community, and oftentimes the dads that come to the community that don't have a high conflict start to get scared around things, and because there's a higher percentage of dads that come to the community really looking for help because they're struggling, they might be alienating, they may not have seen their kids for a long time, they're running out of money, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:And then the other dads are like oh geez, oh geez, which is not a bad thing to be prepared to hear some of these worst case stories, because what we always say is prepare for the worst and hope for the best, right. But I just wanted to point out that mentally, emotionally healthy people see the value in both parents being involved in their children's lives and will make an effort to make that happen. And so if you need a litmus test for whether or not that person that you're ending the relationship and the marriage with is not stable mentally, emotionally stable, might have a personal disorder, et cetera if they're not doing everything they can to facilitate that, then that is your red flag where you need to be paying attention to what's going on. Huge red flag.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. When you re-enter the dating world and you find the date who begins with oh yeah, dad never comes around because he's the biggest loser, you probably need to tap the brakes just a smidge. It was funny in my 20s after my first ex and I split. I didn't know if I was supposed to feel guilty about it or what, because I had several friends that actually broke up too with the explanation of well, ben and Allie have done OK, let's just do it like they did, and it's like OK, well, it's as ideal as it can be.
Speaker 2:But certainly, man, if you're going to get married, boy, you get married to be married, don't you know? Don't be getting married to have kids and then break up.
Speaker 1:That's certainly not the way to spin it. Definitely, yeah, ideally. And my point being is because oftentimes and I know this was my case in going through the divorce process was oh, I fell in love with this person. I don't want to destroy this person, but if they're acting poorly, which is the red flag of not facilitating time together or doing other things, then you need to pay attention to that, because that is going to be a red flag and that is going to help you to understand kind of the course you're going to be taking, Like can you get this done amicably, pro se, maybe with a mediator, maybe with a collaborative divorce, et cetera, or do you need to really start preparing for the worst and then hoping that they come around? So I just wanted to make that point. That's pretty huge Now you pointed out.
Speaker 1:I think it was very interesting that you pointed out that you'd like to go to court for these little things because it's very, very expensive, but not for the big things. Let's dive a little bit more into that in the contract of pro se what pro se is and why that is beneficial and then also tie that into talking about peeking behind the curtain. You said that it's not rocket science. These attorneys go to school to learn all this case law, et cetera. Really, what they've learned is the process right, so take us through that a little bit Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a few things about just kind of how I work too. You know, the people that find me the earlier in their process I tend to be able to work a little bit better with, just because you know you find me a year into the process. There's a lot of things that's already happened. That may or may not have been ideal, yeah, but I suppose, like my process is a little bit different than many people, I guess, that call themselves divorce coaches or other things that at least I've stumbled across.
Speaker 2:Here in the state of Texas there's a committee called the Unauthorized Practice of Law Committee and they run around trying to find guys like me that are jump over the line, which I'm extremely careful about. I cannot give legal advice, I cannot tell you what to do. I cannot. You know there's a lot of no's I cannot do, but one caveat that they included was that, or excluded, I should say is that there's nothing blocking you from sharing any sort of motion template or any other form of documentation that you need for court. So the first misconception most people bring me is can I do this thing, whatever it is, without an attorney? And the answer, 100% of the time, is yes, there is nothing an attorney can do that you cannot do. So sometimes there's an additional step or two, like, for example, subpoenas Pro se. People do not have subpoena power, at least in Texas, so you have to go through the court, which all that means you have to fill out a one page form. Ok, done, cost $60. But it's not hard, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I try to get a hold of people, it's, it's, it's. I try to get people really rational. Try to get a hold of people. It's, it's, it's. I try to get people really rational. I mean, just like you say that, um, you know when you meet people and how they treat their ex and other things, the red flag. It's also a red flag for me, because you know what are you really about? Here?
Speaker 2:I work almost equally 50 50 with moms and dads, which was a huge surprise to me. When I got started I thought it would all be 90% guys. I don't know why. I thought that. I just figured they were always the ones getting rolled. But man, I tell you there's a lot of women out there that get smoked by this industry as well.
Speaker 2:But anyway, we try to figure out. Is it really all about kids? And of course everybody says, yes, okay, I get that. But then how much of it is actually about money? And that gets a little touchier because people don't want to admit to me that, look, I can't pay this freaking child support. Or, ben, look, I really need the child support. All right, whatever you. But you got to get honest with me because I got to know where you're at. And then okay, and then let's fire up this party. Whether we're doing the filing for divorce or the modification or whatever it is, I'm going to share the template with you. We're going to talk through that.
Speaker 2:I utilize a lot of video courses as well to kind of help expedite explanations and other things. But strategically, what I typically do is let's say, jude calls and Jude says, man, I'm on the regular old every other weekend. Deal, this sucks, I want to move to 50-50. Frequently I'm not saying universally, but frequently what we'll do is we'll say, all right, let's fire this party up and he will actually file and request to be primary and flop the entire thing and put mom on every other weekend, all right. This is obviously very explosive in terms of the filing and the response from the other party, but our intention isn't actually to you know, to end with what we asked for. It's asking for one hundred and twenty 125% so that we're willing to be talked back to where we want.
Speaker 2:And I tell you what I don't care if you file that on your ex and she laughs at you and flips you the bird and says I'm going to kick your butt in court. That's all normal. I promise you she is up at not worrying about this because you know, because there's this real like, even if it's a 5% chance, she's got to sit there and think like holy crap, man, what if that really happened and I lost all the child support and I'm going to owe him child support and I'm going to see the kids every other weekend Wow, I'm stressed, all right, and then, yeah, and then we use the system to just continue to push this through as hard as we can. I always use the phrase lift back a dump truck up to her attorney's office and just start shoveling it out, whatever. So you asked about like behind the curtain, and you know simple things.
Speaker 1:I do. Let me just clarify. So you're so. What you're saying is that, from a from a standpoint and a tactic of negotiation, you are starting with something that is much more extreme than actually probably what is going to be the ultimate. That is much more extreme than actually, probably what is going to be the ultimate ruling or the ultimate agreement that each of the parties comes to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because see if I'm going to go to mediation. Okay, first of all, I don't ever like to go to a final trial ever.
Speaker 2:That's terrifying to me to give one person that much power over a very long period of your life with a guy who doesn't even know your kid's name. So I don't ever want to go to final. That's why I say I do not like going to court over important things. But if I'm going to go into mediation against my ex and the only thing I'm asked for is 50-50 in my plea, it takes two seconds to get me back to 47-53. And nothing really changes. Yeah, maybe you got an extra overnight, but we're not dramatically shifting the power, the balance of power. If I'm going into that room saying, ok, offer number one is I'm primary and you're paying me support. I know she's going to laugh me out of the room, but maybe, just maybe, that counteroffer is something I can somehow arm wrestle to get really close to that 50-50 that I was seeking to begin with. And so, yeah, this is basic negotiation right, I mean.
Speaker 1:These are basic negotiation skills that are taught. When you do negotiating, or if you're in some kind of field where you negotiate for a living, which is ask for more, come to where you can feel comfortable with and decide right. So that makes perfect sense. Now let me ask you this, though so when you might see somebody that is on the other side, that is coming with some ridiculous stuff, do you do the same thing, which is come back with your ridiculous stuff? Because what I see guys doing oftentimes and we get a lot of guys to the community that are capitulating they may have been codependent in their relationship, and so they're used to uh saying yes or always agreeing to things, and uh, and and being the yes man, and that's probably one of the reasons why the relationships end. I know that that was a part of my challenge as well, and then, when they start getting into this, it's really really hard for them to be like yeah, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:I'm asking for a hundred percent. So, yeah, that's a big point. When I talk to people for the first time and you know they'll tell me something that they're irritated with and they'll say I'll say, well, what have you done about it? Well, god dang, I've asked him for five years about this issue and you know, nothing's changed. And I have to say, like, well, I bet in y'all relationship is probably exactly the same as what you're doing right now is that all you're doing is flapping your guns. You're asking, asking, suggesting, frustrated, and you know your ex goes, ha ha, look another email from stupid ex and deletes it. And so that's kind of. The first thing is like, man, you got to throw your shoulders back, put your chin up and like, let's go, enough freaking talking. So if you're, if you know, whatever the issue is at play, whether that means we need to do an enforcement or a modification, don't even talk about file you know, we didn't see what that response is Oftentimes just filing.
Speaker 2:It causes enough of like a holy crap response. You know this person's really following through here. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Tap the brakes here. Maybe we should talk Great.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And you've also taught people a lesson that the next time an issue happens, I'm not afraid to file and push this up the flagpole. So the next time I bring up an issue, you better talk to me and not blow me off. And so that's a big deal too. So, yeah, you got to look at the dynamic of y'all's relationship. However you know, whether you're going through divorce or whether you're 10 years post divorce, there's still a relationship. What does that look like? And how are you feeding your own problem? You know, reasonable people want to talk things out. That's how I roll too. I don't want to freaking go to court. You know people ask me all the time if I'm ever going to go back to court and go deal with my 15 year old. I don't think I'd freaking survive, honestly. Right, Because it's too close to me. Right, I can deal with Jude's problems. I can deal with all my other students of me, and I can't deal with it anymore. So, yeah, it's a good check.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, which is one of the reasons why now I recommend anybody that's getting a divorce whether it's amicable or high conflict, that you need somebody to help you through this process. Right, you need a Ben to help you. If you're going to be pro-safe, you're going to be representing yourself and even if you're going to do mediation, you're going to do it amicably, you still need a Ben. You need a Jude to deal with what you just described, the mental, emotional part of that.
Speaker 1:A coach to help you take all these parts around what's going on, because that has an impact. Right, what we're just describing, what you just described right now, the mental, emotional part of that has an impact on you. If you're pro se in court, but you cannot, you know, you just cannot bring yourself to file that motion or try to be unreasonable in an attempt to just come to something that is reasonable, because you've got somebody else that is. You know it's so convoluted and it's so and there's so much that that goes into it that it's really, really important to have those, have people around you and, hopefully, somebody that knows the process that can help guide you through that.
Speaker 2:You know it's a, it's a big point. It's something I think all of you your people that are in the community, I think, are kind of teed into is that not many people know what you're experiencing, even your friends that have been through a divorce. That you know. Let's be real here, lots of guys just roll over and take the deal, okay. And those guys, when you bring your huge struggle to them about how you're fighting for 50-50, going on four years or whatever the case may be, they're not with you. They're like yeah, man, that's crazy, that sucks, ben, I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 2:And so you feel very isolated and you feel very alone and you don't want to talk to your new girl about it or your mother, or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1:And so you're very alone.
Speaker 2:So that's probably to the end. Jude, I'm sure you experienced this a lot. That's probably one of my favorite parts of my job. I mean, a big part of my job is reading motions and finding spelling errors. That's not a lot of fun for me. Talking to you about how you're doing in your heart and your mind and how you're getting through this, and some suggestions and thoughts from someone that's been exactly where you've been, is so refreshing to most people, right, you know, I mean, I do it too. I've been heavily alienated from my 15 year old.
Speaker 1:Not many people understand that.
Speaker 2:Lots of guys just say, like, well, bro, you know he'll come back around when he's 25. Okay, maybe, so what am I supposed to do for the next 10 years? I'm about to lose my damn mind. So I about to lose my damn mind, so I'm in a bunch of parental alienation, zoom meeting type stuff that I do to sit there and purge my own crap on other people because nobody listens to my crap I always listen to everybody else's crap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly so. Yeah, we just don't know what we don't know, right, and and then you know back to, to specifically the the law part of it. This system is created by attorneys, it's adjudicated by attorneys and it really it benefits attorneys. Right, it's not set up to benefit everybody who comes into the system.
Speaker 2:The system is working exactly the way it was designed to work Exactly.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and so let's talk about that a little bit. You need to understand that when you're going into the system, because I was completely like hey, justice will be served as long as I'm honest, uh, as long as I'm forthright, as long as I'm doing the right thing, have the right mind like totally, totally clueless around this, and just after 15 months, like you just described, got completely worn down.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I get this from guys all, and then it was just like I just want to be done, right, Like you said, just be done. And then the problem with that is you've got another 10, 15, maybe 20 years of what you've just agreed to. That trying to change or unravel becomes incredibly difficult to do. So one of the first things I talk about in coaching and I'm sure that you do is you need to figure out, you need to get up to speed on statutes, you need to understand what's going. Even if you've got an attorney or if you've got Ben as your coach, you need to educate yourself, Right.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's a lot. Yes, you got to understand how the the field that you're playing on. In the state of Texas, we did a freedom of information request with the attorney general's office I think it was in 2021. And we asked for there's 254 counties in the state of Texas and we asked for all 254 about what is the percentage of custodial parents versus non-custodial parents. Who's which one's mom, which one's dad? Across all 254 in the state of Texas, 92 percent of the time, mom is custodial. So, guys, you need to understand that you have an 8% chance of being primary in the state of Texas.
Speaker 1:That is statistically fat and I think across the country it's 83%.
Speaker 2:It's a predetermined outcome, and so that's why this is back to my point.
Speaker 2:I don't want to go to court over any of this. I don't want to be in that room because I have a 92% chance of losing, no matter how good my argument is. And we laugh at the state of Texas. So back ass where we were just chuckling about this and say Texas is a standard possession order. It says specifically that in absence of an agreement, the minimum is standard possession. In the later section of the statute it says that the judge must not, may not could must create a schedule to maximize both parents time. The statutes are in conflict with each other. They say the freaking opposite.
Speaker 1:Thing.
Speaker 2:And so you know what does every judge do but rubber stamp the minimum, in violation of the other statute. But good luck getting it. You know teaching a judge the law, especially when your pros say they don't really take kindly to it. And so, yes, you must understand the game. You've got to understand that no one is here to help you. They do not. Nobody is your friend. People think all the time oh yeah, I'm going to take a guardian ad litem because they'll see right through this crap and.
Speaker 2:I promise you that ad litem is best friends with your ex's attorney. They play golf together. They're buddies.
Speaker 1:You're going to get hosed.
Speaker 2:The judge doesn't care about you. Yes, they're going to give opposing counsel, you know grace, and they're going to pound you for the same things. No one is going to help you do anything in the system. You can't even ask where do I file this thing? Sorry, sir, we can't give you legal advice. Click, you know.
Speaker 2:And so you just gotta. You just gotta get your brains around. This is the pool that you're jumping in. And so, yes, that's where you know guys like me and Jude come in and get handy to give you that point in the right direction, cause you're going to need it. Otherwise it's really intimidating, and you know to your end earlier about just getting ground down. The number one reason people get rid of me is that they call and they say I can't do it anymore, that's it. I'm out of gas. It's not we lost, it's not. I'm out of money. It's not anything, it's just I can't. I have to stop, you know, and and as much as I want to grab them by the neck and go, no, you saw, I think we can do this. I also have to remember hey, what did I do? Yeah, I threw the flag and said that's it. Y'all are going to freaking, kill me.
Speaker 1:I'm done so when I was pro se and having to read the statutes, write the motions, write the responses, go through all this. So it is mentally and emotionally taxing, and so on that point you say, well, the process isn't rocket science. Right, it is a process, the process is known. They don't like put it out there for us they're not. And when we're in there, like when I was representing myself, I got steamrolled. I got absolutely steamrolled on just very simple procedural stuff where the magistrate or the judge could have said, hey, you know you have the ability to do this, but never once would they tell me, hey, you have the ability to do this, but never once would they tell me, hey, you have the ability to do this.
Speaker 1:However, I've watched many times when there were women crying or upset or going on something going on emotionally in the courtroom, where they'd stop everything and they'd say ma'am, do you need a minute? Okay, you take a minute, ma'am, this is what your options are, and like literally lay out all the options for them to pick of what's, of what's going on. And so, with the with that said, and what we just described is all of this, if you can hire an attorney, is it best to have somebody representing you if you end up having to go to trial? Is there a delineating place in which you would say Ben hey, we don't want to be in trial, we don't want to take this all the way to trial, but it looks like you're going to trial. Maybe you need an attorney, because that then becomes really challenging if you're pro se.
Speaker 2:It can, yeah, and I tell people if there's any point that you want to hire an attorney, of course you could do that, but you know that would be one common spot Don't have an attorney for discovery and interrogatories and admissions and motions to compel and some of this chinchy little stuff that you can do, because as long as you'll put in the work to learn how to do it, it's not hard. And all of that is going to cost you 15, 20, 25 G's if you've got an attorney.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I want to save one for the end now. But I'm a little jaded with it because if I went through it all over again and I knew what I know now, I'd never hire an attorney ever, because I'll say things in front. I will say because I don't look, I don't care what the judge if I'm his friend or he thinks I'm a nice guy, I really don't. Yes, I understand that it would not be wise to go running around pissing off your judge. However, I will say things to the. I will challenge the judge.
Speaker 2:Let's say that an attorney won't do. You got to remember, an attorney's got his entire career in front of this judge. He ain't going to go up there and piss him off. He's not going to go up there and say, judge, I think you're wrong. And let me read you the statute I'm going to. And so, yeah, I get it. People, you know they get freaked out if they get close to the final trial, and understandably so, and so then they want to, you know, pass the responsibility to somebody that they think will help, and sometimes they do, Sure.
Speaker 1:Now your point excuse me, your point about it being basically a cottage industry is huge. Right, because they are going to be in front of this judge again, so oftentimes they're not going to go to bat for you in the moment, some of them just aren't equipped to do well in front of a judge, right? Some of these attorneys are very poor. Others are very good at arguing in court, but some of them are just going to wait and then they'll do a judicial review or whatever, which benefits them, because then they got to get paid to do this and then they can prove that the judge was wrong or the magistrate was wrong, because then they don't have to argue it. Right, at that moment they don't have to piss anybody off.
Speaker 1:Likewise, with some of these other people that show up in courts the quote unquote experts, right, the PREs or the CFIs or financial people they're all kind of making their living in the court.
Speaker 1:They're not going to piss off An attorney's not going to piss off one of these people because they might have to see them again or they might have to use them with one of their clients, right? So, again, that's why it's incredibly important Even, maybe, if you have an attorney, have a coach like Ben that you can bounce some of this stuff off of, because unfortunately the system, like we said, is not structured just looking out for your best interest. Even if you have an attorney, it's not. I've been through seven of them, right, and I've gotten to the point where I can say look, if you're not going to do what I'm telling you to do, then I'm just going to find another attorney. And I've had them say fine, because they just don't want to listen, because they want to do it their way, because they don't want to piss off the judge. And then I've also had some say man, I'd have never done that, but it worked out.
Speaker 2:And so Texas has a deal called limited scope representation. I'm not sure. I'm sure other states do as well. But it enables you to where you can write your own motions and do all of the background work and then attorney just signs off on it, he files it. In theory it works, but in real life I rarely see it work, for that very reason. That you're saying is that you know, if we put together a blistering motion full of case law and questioning a decision by the court, Mr Attorney is going to get squeamish.
Speaker 2:He's going to get squeamish at this because he's got to put his name on this and it's going to look like it's coming from him and 99 times out of a hundred he's going to drop the football. And so, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm sure you've probably taken a hundred of these phone calls too with with you know, ben, I had an attorney and you know, and we had this gigantic hearing. And then I can say, let me guess he didn't do anything you asked him to do in the hearing, right? Oh, yep, he didn't get pushed back against anything and I got killed. And so you know what that costs you $55,000. Okay, well, right.
Speaker 1:Which is also a reason to have somebody like you that you can strategize with and then tell your attorney what you want them to do and how you want them to approach things in court. Because, yeah, that happens all of the time, and it is so critical that the attorneys are only thinking about you during the time in which they are billing you, so they're not laying up at night thinking about what the best strategy is for Ben and his children and his family right During the 15 minute increments. That they have to be thinking about you is when they're doing it, and usually that's not. They're not strategizing right.
Speaker 1:The strategy is, I would say, a small percentage of it, and most of them aren't really good at it, and so that's why you've got to, as a dad, be on top of the statutes, you've got to know what's going on, you've got to talk to people like Ben, to know and strategize, and then you have to decide all this, and it actually goes back to the attorney that I fired, which is if you don't want to do what I'm doing, what I'm telling you to do, then I will find somebody who will, and you might have to say that because, again, the system is set up for them to do it in the least amount of time is with the, with the least amount of effort, as quickly as possible, without pissing anybody off, and if it goes into high conflict, like a lot of ours does, then that makes it much more difficult.
Speaker 1:I know we got to wrap up on time, so so, maybe, maybe just share a last thought that you would give any of the dads that are listening, that are either contemplating pro se or going through pro se, and then let them know how they can get ahold of you, because I think, in addition to divorce coaching, like I, do something completely different than than you do.
Speaker 1:You focus right and you and you alluded to that earlier in the in in in the show, you do something very specific and very narrow and that is absolutely, 100% needed by every dad, whether he's represented by attorney or not. So share with them.
Speaker 2:The tagline on my website says you can do this period. We can help. And, honestly, that's the first thing you got to understand, man, is that you got this. It's okay. I get that you're freaked out you should be. It's terrifying, I understand. But okay, now let's take that fear and set it over here and understand that it's not hard, it's okay, you know. I mean, compartmentalize your fear and you will have killed 99 of the dragons, and so you know. And then again, you know, develop strategy, think clearly and be freaking honest with yourself. What are you really after here? What are we really trying to solve? I don't, yeah, I don't think it's gross for people to say I can't handle the child support anymore because I can't handle the child support.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of money.
Speaker 2:I was talking to a guy this morning. It's $1,400 a month with like an eight-year-old and you know it's like I've raised three kids. It didn't cost $1,400 a month to raise three kids, much less one. And if you took $1,400 a month from me today, that can trigger. You know how many times is that what fires it up, when you know moms will come to me and say I don't know why dad got all pissed off and filed all this stuff against me. And then you know, dot dot, dot. I just filed for a child support increase. I don't understand why he's so ticked off and it's like I can tell you why he's mad.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I mean guys, you can do it, Guys do it. Guys are good about strategizing and being logical and trying their best to get emotion out of it and work on that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you know Jude has done a tremendous job. I want to say thanks for having me on. This has been a really cool interview. I really you're very good at what you do with this and. But you know you can find me let me just transition to that. You can find me at prosSiteCoachTXcom is where my site is, and you can read much about me.
Speaker 2:I am a little unique from from people, as I mentioned earlier, that I do get way down in the weeds with you, which also means I can only take so many people on at a time, because it's a pretty daggum intimate relationship I have with you, because I'm going to learn everything about you and your life and what's important to you and how you handle stress, and we're going to talk at 2 am and I mean I've taken plenty of calls at 3.30 in the morning before hearings, with people freaking out before that, and so it's. You know I do tell people to be honest with yourself in terms of time. I would say this is a solid part-time job while you're in it, you know. I mean it's a good two, three, four hours a night if you're going to do it right. And of course, the people that don't are the ones that disappear off my calendar for a month and then pop back up and say I haven't done a damn thing in a month, and so, of course, nothing's happened or nothing, we haven't moved anything forward, and so, anyway, much to discuss. But I'd love to hear from any of you.
Speaker 2:I do handle I I'm from texas, obviously, prosaycoachtxcom, but uh, I've worked with people in oregon, west virginia, louisiana, florida, hawaii, new york, new jersey, arizona, colorado, um, the laws do have some nuanced differences, but they're not big, um big. But anyway, I would love to talk to you, and even beyond all of the down in the weeds legal stuff, as I mentioned earlier, I know exactly what you're going through. So if you ever want to talk to somebody who knows exactly what you're going through, I would love to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you are not alone, Ben. I sincerely appreciate it, and I can also say that Ben comes highly recommended. Ben comes highly recommended. There's an individual in our community that has used Ben speaks very highly of Ben, has had some tremendous outcomes because of his work with Ben, and so please get in contact with him and get the help that you need and that you deserve.
Speaker 2:Hey, I'll wrap it up. So I really sincerely appreciate it. I'll wrap it up with one little funny story for you. It's really brief, but I have one attorney friend, sure, and his name is also Ben, and he lives over in the Houston area and he split up with his ex in his I think late 20s as well and he sued her every single year for eight years for 50-50. And every single year he lost. But on the eighth year she finally said you're an attorney now. And he said, yeah, I figured what the hell, I already learned it all. So I just went to take back to school and pass the bar. You know what? That's it. We're just doing the 50-50. We're moving on.
Speaker 2:So the point of that though sometimes it's not over and done, even if you lose. Even if you lose, just pick up your sword and you can keep going. When you have an attorney, you can't really do that. They're going to start letting go of you and they're going to bleed you out. When you're pro se, nothing can stop you except you, yep, absolutely Tell them to stay strong.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, unfortunately some of us it's a war and there's all these small battles that go into the long-term war around that. It's a terrible analogy to use, but it found some value in this. Please share it far and wide on social media. Give us a star rating, even better. Leave us some comments and definitely get in touch with Ben Ben. Thank you so much. Thanks, bud. Thanks bud.
