The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads is a weekly podcast designed specifically for fathers navigating divorce. It addresses the unique challenges men face and offers practical guidance, emotional support, and real-life insights to help dads survive — and ultimately thrive — during and after divorce.
Each episode combines honest conversation, personal stories, and action-oriented advice to help listeners rebuild confidence, create healthy co-parenting strategies, manage finances, navigate court complexities, and heal emotionally. Since launching in 2020, the show has become a trusted resource and supportive community for divorced and divorcing dads.
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The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads
293 - How A Dad Beat Legal Gaslighting And Built A Better Life
The gut-punch of high-conflict divorce isn’t just the paperwork or the silence after a slammed door—it’s realizing the system you’ve entered runs on efficiency, not fairness. We sit down with strategist and author Alex R. Dane, whose High Conflict Playbook was forged in the fire of restricted access, weaponized narratives, and court calendars that move slower than a parent’s panic. Together, we unpack how he went from shock to strategy and earned 50-50 by becoming the calmest, most consistent person in the room.
Stuck in divorce uncertainty? You need a roadmap. We’ve dropped the Lifetime Membership to $750. It now includes 4 FREE 1-on-1 coaching sessions and a 25% lifetime discount on future coaching. Get the brotherhood and strategy you deserve.
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Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for tuning in again this week. And if you're uh if you're you you've been tuning in over the past uh several weeks, you know that we've just finished up the the the series around really kind of practical advice and and how you can start this new year off during this chaotic time and doing some specific things that are gonna help you through the process. Today we're gonna we're gonna shift gears a little bit and and really my guest today is gonna be able to share some good news, I feel, around what he has done through and after his divorce. You know, we always hear during uh high, well, we always hear just just in general during divorce, platitudes like uh you like you're just gonna have to co-parent or or you just put the kids first, et cetera, et cetera. But we those of us who are or have been in high conflict situations know that those platitudes really fall short in a in a an in a system that is broken and and when we're dealing with a party that just isn't playing by the rules. And so my guest today, he's a strategist, uh, he's an author, and he is a self-described survivor of the family court system. But he's uh also an unapologetic voice behind a book that he wrote called The High Conflict Playbook, a guide for parents fighting to protect their kids and maintain 50-50 custody when divorce turns ugly. Moving beyond just dry legal theory, he relies on lived experience to help parents navigate legal gaslighting in high-stakes conflict. He teaches parents how to treat their case like a war room, combining raw honesty with tactical precision. Through his writing and community, he equips parents with the tools to stop just surviving the system and start leading their families through it. Help me welcome Alex R. Dane. How are you doing, Alex?
SPEAKER_03:Doing good. Thanks. Thanks so much, dude, for uh for the introduction there. And and I think as it'll come up when we're talking, you were you're there at the beginning of this journey in Swell. We've had a conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, man. So let's let's let's give everybody a little bit of a little bit of background on on kind of your situation. So we met and and had a call and and talked a little bit about your situation really early when when you were in it. Give us uh give us a little bit of background on yourself, but also your journey through through the divorce, and then let's let's jump into the book because man, this this book is amazing, and it it is something that I'm gonna say right now, and and we'll talk about how people can get their hands on it. I think that anybody going through divorce, particularly a high conflict divorce, needs to get their hands on and and read through.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and and thank you for a second. That means quite a bit. I mean, it's all connected. The reason I was contacting you at the beginning was because I found my place at the beginning of a divorce where I'd been a bit naive before. I won't go too much into the relationship, but but it suffice to say that the high conflict was before the divorce as well. And I had decided that it was time to exit, kind of seeing that at this point, you know, we had a child and that it wouldn't be good for them to kind of see what was going on. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna pull this band-aid off. I'd spoken to a couple lawyers, had done kind of a plan around it. And I I knew that there was going to be some chaos off the start, but I drastically underestimated how the next steps were going to go for a few reasons. Number one, didn't understand the system. Number two, my brain is just wired to expect the best from people, which is A, kind of how you get trapped in that situation, but B is something that you you need to switch if if you end up in a high conflict kind of legal battle. And and I will I'll do the caveats off the start. If if you have a conscious uncoupling and collaborative divorce process, which 80 80% of them are as far as I know, uh that's great for you. Go that process, do mediation, and and and I and I hope it all works out for you. And that's best for families and children. But that's not what this book's about because that's not the situation I I found myself in. And the first naivety was I didn't understand that the system would so quickly when there was no allegations, nothing that I had done wrong, I that that I could be restricted from access to my child anyways. Off the start. Because I I went from it was the middle of COVID from spending every moment that I wasn't at work and and I didn't work a lot, like I worked 35 hours. I'm kind of a government person at that time. So I had a you know a 35-hour a week job and was home every day, and it was just time with you know with my son and uh and our little family there because he had to cohort. It was where we were living. And went from that to having zero access for uh a number of weeks. And then, you know, I think her lawyer at that time talked some sense into her, but it but it's still, it was about four hours, two hours, four hours, and they're trying to supervised, none of which made any sense. And the effect that that had on me at this time, which I suspect a lot of your readers will understand, was that it it was a visceral psychological, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual effect on myself that put me in this position when I had to make the biggest decisions of my life, of my child's life, and my family's life at a point when I wasn't able to think. There was so much fog, there was so many wild emotions that were clouding everything that I was thinking about. And so I started to reach out in different ways that I knew. So I was looking for books, I was Googling like what do I do in this? I was talking to my family, trying to find other people that had been through it. And I think that's where I found you know our conversation off the start, just trying to get some clarity. And even at that point, my brain couldn't take in much because I know that we had a half-hour to an hour-long conversation, but it held on to one piece, which was you told me you need to be strategic. Yeah, and I took that very literally, I think because of my my career in that, and started developing a strategy of similar to a business strategy to kind of make my way through it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So so you open the book specifically with the disclaimer that you mentioned early, which is that that the book is not for people that are are going through this, they're collaborating, they're compromising. This is for people that are experiencing something that's that's high conflict, which which typically involves the the other party having some mental emotional issues where they're doing things like you described, which is restricting access to the kids, maybe false allegations, maybe all of those things. There is a playbook around this with individuals that's that exhibit some of these mental emotional issues that uh we talk about in the community all the time. You and I talked about up front when we talked initially, and and you do have to be strategic, otherwise it can go very, very sideways right away. You talk about and and you talk about that being being naive. What so if if you will, can you can you can you maybe dive a little deeper into maybe what were your expectations going in uh in that naivety? And what was the real specific wake-up call that that that had that you know made you realize, oh shoot, like I need to, you know, I really need to pay attention to this and I need to shift my mindset around this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, for sure. So I I knew that there was, like I said before, that there was gonna be some chaos at the start. I thought that she would be mad for a couple weeks to a month, that we would still kind of just go straight into 50-50. That would happen, and then there'd be some sort of mediation process with either a mediator or a lawyer. We would come together and talk things through after that month, and then you know, come to some sort of agreement and and go through this process. And so after I'd sent, because I'd I'd written an email just to kind of say like this is the direction that we're going to be going. And after I'd and I'd sent that, and my last bit of naivety was around I was waiting. I wasn't gonna fall yet because I didn't want to instigate it higher. And and at the same time was when that access was restricted for me. And then my first time seeing my son again in a couple of weeks, uh, they would only let me do it with supervised and with no rationale for it, and there never was an accusation. There's some reasons around that. You can ask me that a little later, because there is there is something I did strategically to avoid. Because I suspect there would have been accusations if I hadn't done something that you can ask me later about.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Can I can I ask you what the restrictions and why there were restrictions? And was that the the wake-up call when the when the restrictions came and you kind of alluded to the fact that all of a sudden now you're not seeing your son?
SPEAKER_03:So technically, I I could have stormed in the house, grabbed my son, you know, and left with him. And they couldn't have done much in the moment. But in speaking with my lawyer, if I did anything like that, it would make myself look unstable. And it would cause troubles later on when we were within court in order to work out that 50-50 agreement. And so I was advised very strongly that we needed to get into court quick, get a temporary agreement, and then work towards getting that there because of the fact that she had filed in another province. I had had to move there quick and to kind of follow because the legal banner was going to take there. And then the place of residence, I no longer had one for a bit. And so those things were kind of written into the affidavit in a way that, like, I'm a professional, I own property, and I had all these things, but the way it was written made it look like I was a a bit more unstable, not emotionally, but I guess financially at that time. And which was which was kind of untrue in the moment.
SPEAKER_00:Um it was a false, it was a false narrative that was being described in it was in the court system. And the reason the reason Alex I ask is because in these high conflict cases, oftentimes there, like I said, there there is a there is a playbook around this that that you know about. Sometimes it's a false allegation. In this case, it was moving, filing, and then creating this, this, this narrative about who you were, which then allowed her to restrict access, right, to to to your son. And that is kind of the crux of what starts to happen. And and I want to raise awareness to those that are listening, is if your soon-to-be-ex is not facilitating a relationship with your child, that is a red flag for you to pay attention to, right? Like so, so you just described kind of this wake-up call is was that okay, she moved, she filed, and then it within this filing are uh is is a bunch of false narratives uh about you, and then restriction of access to your son, which then you know then creates a big, big problem because now you're in a system where, okay, this is when we get would get into, you know, you say one of your hardest lessons was learning the family court, and that your history as a parent is not necessarily going to translate into court and and what it looks like on paper. So talk to this about how you then, you know, so this is your wake-up call, right? Then you know what you know, what was that realization? And and then when you first read those affidavits and it didn't match reality, like what were your what was your thought process then? And then what did you you know, what did you do from there?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So and I can tell you're in this world because you're really catching on to everything.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I live this world, my friend. If I yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Not everyone knows that this level of detail of kind of what's happening with these situations.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and that's why it's really important because you didn't realize it. I didn't realize it when I was going through it. We have we have thousands of dads that are listening that are that are either going through this or have gone through this, they're like, holy shit, yes, this is exactly. And there is a there is a playbook to this when people are are doing this and and you have lived it, you without any very little guidance, uh, you'll traverse this and and have derived so many important things in this book about about the system. And that's why I want us to I want us to really go slow through this and and talk about this, uh, because your outcome was was was a was a positive, and now you're sharing what your outcome was with that. So so if you can share, yeah, if you can share a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_03:I just want to put two caveats before we go. So other I do I do think the system is biased towards towards our specific gender a bit more than other. But I want I do think this applies kind of on both sides as well. Sure. Because yeah, there's definitely can be uh you know chaotic people and high conflict people on both sides. So I and I think it's a trap to get too caught in that piece sometimes, not necessarily at the beginning, but after when stuff kind of settles out again. Not that I I don't think it ever fully settles out. But so what happened next was so I had started the divorce, she filed first, as as you're saying, and then and she had moved provinces quite far. Luckily, it was kind of where I was from, and so it wasn't it wasn't a huge deal for me to kind of move back there, but it did cost me my career and kind of career advancement at that point and had to kind of restart that stuff. Um not that that's as important as kind of custody and that, but it is it's just another thing. And when she served me, one piece that's that was kind of starting to happen was they used that first meeting back with my son and I ended up being served there, which I'm a very calm, calm person, which served me quite well because I could never know for sure, but I would suspect that that's a bit of a setup to try to instigate a reaction from me. And I didn't react at that point. I'm sure I went home. I have four sisters, so they were all both the same age and called them and complained, which is a part in the book, like you gotta build that network, whether it's uh family, friends, and you need different people in different parts of your network. But at that point, I'm like, okay, there's there's I need to be 100% strategic. And I started thinking about back to school, which is the prisoner's dilemma. I'll try to do a quick explanation of it, but it's uh it's it's it I think it's the simplest form of game theory. But essentially if the prisoner's dilemma is I'm gonna do a quick, and some people if you're deep into this will will have kind of feedback around this, but just for the purpose of this podcast, I'm gonna simplify it a bit. But if you have two people, one person can tell on the other person or tell the truth, the best outcome is a collaborative divorce, or both people tell, or both people kind of don't tell on each other. Sorry, I just messed up the explanation. If if they're facing prison time, that's the best case outcome. So they collaborate, they don't get prison time. But in real-world examples at one time, just in one case of it, the the the outcome is usually that, or the best outcome is if you actually tell on someone else, because it ends up kind of essentially kind of it's likely they they're gonna tell on you, and so you have to preemptively do it, which is kind of what their side did. But over time, the lesson of the prisoner's dilemma is if you if you do it for a thousand times or ten thousand times, that's actually not the best strategy with it. And within society, with the prisoner's dilemma, typically how people who aren't anti-social Afghan anti-social traits do it is we tend to collaborate and kind of move forward with it. But within my mind, I went back to that prisoner's prisoner's dilemma and I knew, okay, I can predict what she's gonna do, because at each point, whatever I do, she's gonna take the other side to make the process more difficult or to cause you know, a negative reaction from myself or a negative outcome for myself, which is a bit of strategy that I used as I was going on, because I could predict what they were gonna do, because it was either the opposite of what I was gonna do, or something that was going to prevent me from having access to to my son.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So in so what you're what you're describing, that you use your example there is there they have this this script that that they're gonna follow. And there are less so she's filing, she's saying things about you, and then essentially attempting to work backwards in getting you to react to be able to justify or to support what it is that they're saying. It's a tactic that happens all the time. It's like poking the bear. You're gonna poke the bear, you're gonna poke the bear, you're gonna poke the bear. And then they you poke the bear so many times the bear you know gets mad, and then they go back and they go, Well, see, like he's angry or uh or he's or he's gonna do something rash, like you said, go and run in and and take your son and go, you had every right to do it, but then that looks bad, even though they're creating scenarios and setups for you. And the other thing I want to point out about this is typically somebody who's going through this and doing this is thinking about this for a an extended period of time, like way longer than you have. You're thinking, hey, how are we gonna figure this out? How are we gonna collaborate? How are we gonna compromise and and get this done? They're thinking the opposite. They're thinking what their end goal is, how they're gonna control it, and then working your prisoner's dilemma there. They're gonna be the first movers, they're gonna file, they're gonna have a protection order, or they're gonna move to, they're gonna move away and then take the kid. You uh this is so I hear this a lot of times. You're fortunate to be able to move, to be able to have the ability to do that. This happens lots of times to guys where they can't. Like they can't go, they can't leave their career, they can't up and move. And then this creates a whole another dilemma uh uh around what they're uh experiencing. And so when we talked about being strategic, you really have to be strategic when something like this starts to happen. And so Somebody like this with these issues going on starts to implement a plan that they've thought about for a very long time. Because you're right, it was no coincidence that they served you exactly at the same time that you were finally having some parenting time with your son. So so this so this leads me into to next part, which is navigating this the system, right? You have a a chapter titled Accept the Reality, where you argue the legal system is not designed for fairness, but rather for efficiency. Can you explain what you mean by that and how a parent should shift their strategy once they accept that that reality?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So then the next step was you know the affidavits start, like you're talking about. So you get sent this document and and or I did, and and I read it, and some of it's quite dramatic. And I'm like, who are they talking about? Like who right? Some of it, like you're some of it's outright lies, some of it is uh you know, twisting it at a very negative light. Yeah. And and you know, my initial reactions, you go through all the stages of grief off the start, you know, you're kind of what? You know, some denial, some definitely depression, loss of hope. I mean, if there's one thing I can impart impart to the listeners that are kind of at the beginning of it, the you know, and I'll just interlude to it here, is is that feeling of hopelessness when it feels like you're you're gonna lose, you you're not gonna have your kids ever again, and all of that. There's times when it feels like walking away is the best way, and there's times when I just I just thought everything was done. And you're right, I am privileged in a number of ways to get through this situation because it it is pay-to-play, and we'll talk I'm sure we'll talk a bit about the war of attrition with money later. And but just that there was times when it wasn't like I kind of felt hopeless, but I knew it would work out. It was times when I it was hopeless, and around this time when I knew it wouldn't work out, and a hundred percent believed that there was no way, but I was still gonna walk forward through it. And for those, that's where you kind of really need to tap your networks, really. You know, if you I mean there's kind of a male loneliness crisis right now, but tap into family if you have it, friends, men's groups, crisis lines, whatever you need to kind of get through that part. So the affidavits, I'd have to go through all these emotions, and then after 24 hours, 48 hours, my brain would come back and I'd be like, oh, okay, yeah, none of this is is is time for me to respond yet. And then I would start writing the next kind of affidavit because there's usually two, sometimes three or four that you get before you go. And so then we had our temporary court, you know, appearance to come up with a temporary parenting plan in the first part. And I noticed some things right away, which was that you know, the the lawyers don't know each other, which I work in a system in my day job, and and I kind of know that the professionals know each other, and those relationships are important, even if they're on opposite sides. Yep. Um, the the judges don't seem to have deeply read affidavits when you get it. I don't want to get in in kind of legal trouble. I don't think I get in trouble for that. But there was a time when I was watching someone else's case waiting for mine where a judge actually admitted it. But but you know, a lot of times it's not like TV where they've deeply read into everything. I think they're reading it right before and skimming. So they don't they matter to kind of get into the game, but I'm not sure how much you know if it's a 16 or 100-page happen to be.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's not law and order where they're collaborating in the judges' chambers to really figure out what the best course is for Alex's family and Jude's family because they have you know they're they're dead set on making sure that there's justice served. It's not that, that's not the system.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and and you know, each each state is different for how the legal system works, but I think some of these are kind of global, at least for most of it.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_03:And they want they want families to work together. So they they wanted us to kind of go through mediation at that place, but they'll put in a temporary border. But the other piece was it's the first I started hearing in the best interest of the child. So I started trying to figure out what that was. And over you know, two or three years of that process, you know, eventually I came to the realization that it means different things to different people within the system. Um that a lot of times it didn't quite mean in the best interest of the child, but from my perspective, a lot of times it was used as a vague wording to justify the system kind of reinforcing itself. And once that kind of clicked in my mind, I knew from my work that it's you know, I do think people try the best that they're they're trying to do in the moment. But we have these big systems, and a lot of it's about efficiency. And so they want the they wanted us parents to, you know, in their minds come up with a plan on our own. Obviously, that can't happen. Yeah, and then secondary to that, they want to get us through that whole process quick enough so they don't have to deal with us. Right. And so that's where I say that they want efficiency to to get through that process. So they kicked us back out to mediation, and then because it was a month or two months where you know my ex had defined what my relationship was with my child, whereas I went from every moment I wasn't at work spending with my child because she had restricted so much access, they start from a little bit more time than that. And then because it was COVID and all the systems were slowed down where it's at, and you know, mediation took about nine months before we got into there. So I had nine months where my parenting plan was mostly defined by my ex and then reinforced and a little bit improved by the judge. At this time, there's a few things that they put into the plan that opened it up. I can see in hindsight for 50-50, they suspected it was gonna go that way because I think that the judge could kind of start to see what was going on here. But the system is slow, it's working for efficiency, and it's and the other pieces, as we're talking about, are alluding to perception. So it's not this logical thing of law where they go through, in my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer, but they go through and they're like legally looking logically, like how relevant is this evidence, like law and order, and you know, gotcha moments, and and your your lawyers saying, I want the truth and all that. Right. It's the first five seconds that we're probably in there, they have a perception of how we're reacting, and that's where emotions the same as when I got served, you know, and and it's a privilege that I can stay emotionally stable because I suspect when I was 16 year olds years old or 22 years old, I wouldn't have. But you know, I'm 40, and so I, you know, I'm just too tired to have much reaction. Um but and then because I'd been in different situations where I can present while in court, which is also a privilege, you know, some of those things started kind of turning it around into my favor, although there's still so much more the next two years.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, well, so you you developed a strategic framework to navigate that court efficiency model, right? You call it rational, fair, and solid. Those two things. Rational, fair, and solid. Can you break down those three pillars for us?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because I started thinking who who who do they want to be a dad?
SPEAKER_01:Right?
SPEAKER_03:And that's that's literally. I sat down and I'm like, if I'm a judge and I'm and I have to go by what these people look like, who do I want to be a dad? Right? Right. I I never saw it, but I could suspect someone in court kind of banging their fist or yelling about their ex probably wasn't gonna go over well. Right. I could see right away the trying to be right, and I was told that by my lawyer, but trying to be right doesn't matter as much as perception.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:So being able to kind of let go of points and arguments very quickly and not not worry about what the other side was doing as much as you know, basic marketing of myself, you know, I I have one one degree more over in business, and I just started thinking kind of business like in marketing. And so the brand that I thought was, you know, if I seem fair, I'm more likely to be trustworthy. And so I wasn't always, you know, just slagging my ex. I was pointing out points that were kind of strategic that wouldn't still wouldn't make me look bad, but where I'd made a mistake or something like that. I'd try to point that out because it gains trust in how I'm speaking, you know, further. And then being really stable and seeming stable and not showing too much emotion one way or the other, but also not being completely void of emotions, because then trust kind of breaks down as well. So seeming like I was vulnerable in court. So when I was talking about my son and I was about to cry and how much I missed him, not completely holding that in either. It was okay to cry in court a little bit, but also not being, you know, super blubbering or or getting too angry, right? Because I think that having this like and it's tough, like it's really to kind of do all this. Like you haven't slept the night before. You're talking about like very deep things, and and you have to show only the right amount of emotion, but also holding in, and I'll I'll wrap this up quick. Also holding in that all the societal frameworks and stereotypes of whatever gender you are. So for me, being a dad, being a male, that I have to take those into account because everyone was seeing me through that lens within the court system. Right. And then making sure that at times when I when it kind of didn't play towards the way that would be helpful for me, that I was kind of risked mitigating that brand-wise. And then at times when it did play, just let it ride and take take the privileges.
SPEAKER_00:So the rational fair solid was your your framework for creating the narrative of actually who you are and the dad that that you actually are. So all of your all of what you did, all of how you showed up, all of your interactions, all of your communications were all built about around am I am I am I a rational person? Am I demonstrating that I'm a rational person? Am I demonstrating that I'm that I'm a fair person? Am I demonstrating that I'm a solid person, a solid dad that's that's showing up, which is really, really important because what's happened is this the other side is trying to create an opposite narrative, right? They've done a false allegation, they've like you, like you said, with the the affidavits, you're reading these and you're going, who's like, who are they talking about? Just just a month ago, we were the happy family, and I was she was sending me off with with my son to the park, and I was doing and now all of a sudden I'm abusive and I'm controlling and like whatever the narrative is, or there's even a protection order that says he does this or he does that, right? That that a lot of the time gets completely, completely just uh defended in court and then goes away, except for the fact that the the court is based upon perception, right? And a preponderance of evidence. It's not they don't have to have a clear and convincing evidence, they have to create this narrative like you talked about. So that's one of the strategies, right? So they'll they'll do that and they'll bring that up in court and et cetera. And you're going like, what the hell? Like you're you're all and then you're automatically on defense. But if you come to the reality that's that like you said, which is okay, I need to, I I understand the strategy. Like when you understand the system and you understand their strategy, then you finally get to the point where you're like, you know the rules of the game, right? So now you can be engaged and and then be engaged by being rational, fair, and solid. And then the next thing you talk about in in the book is that a lot of a lot of a lot of what happens through this process relies on communication, right? And and you mentioned using tools like even AI to keep to keep the the communication brief, informative, friendly, and firm, right? We talked about I've done podcasts on that, we talk about it. So tell tell us why the tone of emails in that vein, in the BIF vein, is so critical.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I mean, obviously we have credibility for all of that, but there's no better way that I've found. So just to back up one piece, they couldn't make the really deep allegations against me because I prior to it, I actually had a recording where we were, you only need one party consent to record. And I'd had a recording that never kind of came out through the process where she had been I'm trying not to go into the relationship as much, but it was a number of months back in the relationship, and typically the arguments were were where I would just kind of be calm, but something would trigger it, and then they'd go on from one side from her side for hours and hours sometimes. And there was a point during one of it because I'm I had to kind of make myself remember what was going on because my brain is too too easy, too quick to forgive. And I kept going back in that cycle over and over again. So I was recording it one time, and she'd she said that if I ever if I ever left, and and I was first mover, I didn't leave, I just didn't file first. I I said we're divorcing. But if I ever left, that she would make some, and I won't say what they were here, but she would make some very dramatic accusations about things that did not happen. So in the affidavit, there were other accusations, but some of the more serious ones that I think would have occurred, I avoided because they knew that that I had that recording and all those and it wouldn't come out in court unless they brought up something. But just to kind of put that out there for people.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and and and I and I want to add to that that oftentimes the these allegations are are are are are false and they get and in and they are false and then they do get refuted. But the problem is is you start behind the eight ball, right? So then you're dealing with with criminal issues on top of family court issues, on top of maybe somebody that's moved, like it becomes this whole mountain that you've got to climb. And and so you are really smart, and it's unfortunate that you have to do something like record somebody when they start. But when they start with this language, you you've got to pay attention, you've got to protect yourself, but you also got to protect your kiddos because in what we're not what we're gonna talk about here coming up is is how to protect your kiddo through this because this is having an impact on on them as well. So so you know, so I just wanted to point that out, but but if you could if you could talk then about the the tone of the emails and and why it's critical in that framework of rational, fair, and and solid, and how that can show up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and it's it's it's all tied to the same thing. So the how they did kind of allegations, which will tie into the emails here, was they tried to paint a picture where saying I was angry, which is almost the exact opposite of my personality. And so some of it was subtle, and some of it they're directly saying, you know, this type of thing, and trying to paint like an angry man, which if we think about stereotypes, that's more stereotypical for like what would work kind of with the genders. And then forgetful, which I mean I'm pretty on the ball most of the time. I'm sure I do forget my keys from time to time, but they would tie that in, which is another stereotype. Watch all the uh the sitcoms. What's a dad look like on the sitcoms, right? It's almost like they're trying to paint that exact picture, it's a narrative, a bumbling and those sort of things, and then there were some more specific ones, I don't even remember them now. And so while that's going on, it's coming out in the affidavits and it's coming out in emails. And so off the start, you get one of these emails we're trying to communicate, and my initial reaction, which I'm sure is a lot of other people, is to write this huge thing refuting each piece logically, right? Right, convincing the other side, justice, yeah, and my brain's confused. There's so much so many emotions going on in there that it's like this you know, pages and pages of gibberish email that does that is just not effective. Okay, and so I was recommended early to get to read Bill Eddie's work on Biff statements. And and but then the problem with biff statements is is when you know when I didn't have a lot of brain power, and even if it's 24 hours later and I'm quite emotional, and I haven't practiced them, that it's hard to know exactly how to write it still. It's so hard to not to make that one point, you know. And and I feel for all you guys out there in this right now, with me it's more around co-parenting and it's and it's and it's drifted off a bit, at least for now. But you know, not making that one point and understanding how to use that language is difficult. And so what I found was, you know, AI was just at the point where it could start writing those. And so I'd wait the 24 hours, my brain would be back to where I could kind of think. And then I'd throw it through, I'd either do my version up first and then throw it through chat or Claude, chat 50 or Claude, and see what it comes up with. Or I would ask it, you know, can you analyze this as a BIF statement by Bill Eddie? And it comes back. And I'm telling you, like, I don't know how it works, but it diffuses the situations. And although it's not as satisfying sometimes as uh a self-righteous email defending myself, the the outcomes, which you know, I I much prefer good outcomes, the outcome is a lot better in the end.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, that's exactly if if you can make that mindset shift that it's not about justice, it's not gonna be about you proving your point or proving right or wrong, but it's gonna be proving that you're a good dad, uh, like your three pillars, like that you're consistent, that you're there, that you're fair, like all the things that you described, then it makes it easier to understand if you work back from the outcome that you want the outcome to be that you're gonna be able to, you're gonna be spending time with your kiddo, which is it's it's crap in the in off the bat that you should have to be doing this, but you have to make this mindset shift. And then that makes it easier. And you're absolutely right. Like back in the day when I was going through mine, we didn't have these AI tools. The AI tools are phenomenal right now to do exactly what you described, which is hey, write it out and then take it into AI. Say, can you adapt this to be brief, informative, friendly, and firm? And then It'll it'll give you something that will be much, much better. And then again, then you're able to create and sustain the narrative that is you, that is fairly you, right, when when you're going through this process. Let's shift, let's shift. You just mentioned, right, uh, a little bit about that internal battle. Like it's gonna make you feel better if you're gonna prove your point, right? But it's not gonna work. So you write about uh what you call brain fog during what during this process. And particularly you you mentioned it in the Oprah when you're when you're needing to make these really important, literally life-altering decisions, you have this brain frog. And then you also say that during this time your your mind and your emotions will lie to you. What did that look like? Describe that to us is what that looked like for you. Because I know a lot of guys are experiencing it, but I know I felt like I was freaking crazy, right? What was that like for you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, a lot of times I think through through life through a spiritual lens, and the deepest spiritual lesson around the purpose of emotions that I've ever had in my life was through this process. And so initially, you know, when your your family's your child's ripped away from you, essentially. And I have a very visceral reaction to that, even now with transition, where I each transition still today there's an hour where I just have to sit down and not do anything, and then five hours where I have to kind of move quite slow because although stuff's very stable right now, just having you know my my child out of uh out of my life again, it it takes me a while to kind of reset. And I'll imagine that times a hundred where I don't know if they're coming back. Not I don't know, I think that they're that they're going to be successful during this process. And so all these emotions that we work that we're told all our life we're not supposed to have, right? You're not supposed to be too depressed, you're not supposed to be too angry, you're not supposed to be too anxious, right? Look at all the news, look at everything. These emotions we're not supposed to have.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Through the process of of going through, you know, separation, divorce, and all that, I finally understand what those emotions are for. And there was a point in the hopelessness, you know, before mediation or just after it, when you know I still wasn't back up to anywhere close to 50-50 where everything every fiber in me was you know either sad or angry and and is deeply hopeless that I just realized it didn't matter anymore. I was still gonna move forward, and I saw a core of strength because I knew that no matter what happened, I was gonna fight for my family, for my son. Yeah, and that strength then grew out to be so big that you know when one of my books that I loved growing up was The Stranger, but another Camus, which I put in the Albert Camus book, and I'm gonna say it wrong, but that in my deepest winter I knew that I had an infinite summer.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:I finally understood that. And when that moment happened, then I could see start to notice some other things. Okay. So I have if I have a full day in court the day before, the night before, I know I'm not gonna sleep. I knew that from running races before that I could still perform if I didn't sleep. And then when I got into court and I was all anxious, and then the depression would come on, or sadness, maybe not depression's probably too far for that, sadness would come off. I noticed that it took away the anxiety and I could be sad. And I noticed that anger, if I didn't keep it, if I if I if I didn't acknowledge it or push it away, it in public it never happened, but but that it could turn into rage. But if I if I acknowledged it, became friends with the anger, it's the most motivating force in the world. I mean revolution throughout history, revolution after revolution. What is the feeling that causes that revolution on a global scale? It's anger, yeah. Right? And so anger is the fuel and the energy to move everything forward through this process. You need it, you you need to make friends with it. You can't be raging in court, you can't be raging against your ex. But you need to get through it. You need your sadness because it lets you it keeps you vulnerable, which people will trust you more if you if you can stay good with that, but as well, it's gonna reduce the anxiety. You need the anxiety because it's gonna keep you sharp when you're writing your affidavits and make sure that you don't miss anything. Right. It's gonna be like the sharpening of your blade to keep you focused while you go through this whole process. Right. You have such a deep internal realization of how all those work now, you know, as you get to the end of the book, I talk about it, but when the legal stuff kind of dies off some, the amount of energy you have in the rest of your life and the amount of focus that that gives you on parenting, yeah, if you keep that separate from your parenting time, the amount of focus you have, you you're just a better human being through this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you've just you've you have built strength mentally and emotionally, just like you would physically, right? If you kept in in the gym and working on this. And I and so what I take away from what you're saying is that you need to feel these emotions, guys. Like you're gonna, you're it's just gonna bring up a ton of stuff. And and the fog will begin to clear, as Alex says, when you identify, hey, I'm I'm angry. Okay, and then and then you take that and you don't ignore it, right? You like you do something with it. It's the these emotions are all meant for us to pay attention to to something. But if you're like at least like I was, I was never taught to really understand what they are. I was just I was just taught anger, like you said, anger, that's bad. You can't you can't be angry. So just suppress that anger. And that's where it will just keep you in a fog. Because if you're suppressing all this, you're you're just in a fog of these emotions coming up, and then finding ways in which you have to suppress them or ignore them. And that does not work, guys. So you've got to be aware of them. That's the first, that's the first step. And then learning skills to allow them come up, and then learning what to do with them, like Alex said. Like anger is probably one of the best motivators that you can ever have in your in in your life if you utilize it the correct way and and and and harness that, I guess, uh is the is what you should say. So so that's really important. I think that's a really important message, Alex, to to get to the guys because I know I just thought like and and and and I'll say the only way that I really came to that realization was what you said earlier, which was getting involved in community and talking to other guys about that. Because until I started that instead of hearing other guys' stories or hearing other guys talk about it, I was like, I just feel I'm I feel like I'm crazy. Like you got this side coming at you, and they're saying, and then you start thinking, maybe it's true. Like, is this true? Like you start questioning your your yourself and and you're and it's complete crap. You're not. So that's why whatever the community, that's why we've built a divorced advocate community for group, like what co like whatever you want, wherever you're at, but find somebody to talk to. Maybe it's family, maybe it's friends, whatever it is, so that you can't, so you, so that you can get through through that fog. So, so let's talk about the the protecting our kiddos through this process and through all this this legal noise. We hear, you know, the the the the kids are priority, right? And you talk about in the book creating a hard boundary or a bubble around your parenting time. So uh through all the the brain fog, through all the false allegations, the like all that stuff, how did you manage to compartmentalize this all that stress so that it didn't bleed into time with your son?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So you have to be very conscientious about that when you're in the middle of kind of all the legal proceedings and and make sure that we're clearing out a spot for that time. So, you know, before transitions, visualizing how that transition is gonna go and how to make sure, you know, if if your ex-partner is gonna be a little bit wild during that transition, that uh you know, visualize not reacting for that, number one. Um 30 minutes to an hour before, if something heavy, heavy's happened, like sit in your car, talk to someone else. If you need your cry, cry. Like, I don't I don't know where we talked about this, like that guys don't cry, guys cry. Even oh, yeah, you know, even back in the day they did. And I and I think it's kind of a little bit of BS that when people said like we only cried during sporting events. No, like like I grew up sports, guys, guys, and all that, and I remember like lots of different times that weren't just related to sports around that. Yeah, and this is a time where a hundred percent you need that cry, cry. Because that's what makes gut anger come out sideways is when you do suppress that anger, understanding where the anger's coming from, and and why, because anger is a secondary emotion, and spending some time with that, and you know, sometimes doing the opposite of the emotion helps too. So a lot of times people say, Well, if I'm angry, I'll go, you know, hit a punching bag, and that and and catharsis actually usually isn't the best. It kind of creates more of it because it reinforces neurological pathways, but sometimes doing the opposite beforehand, but taking that time with the emotions before the transition, because A, you're you're about to go into what could be a heated time and you need to perform there because it could end up in court, what happened. And by perform I mean stay calm. And then B, you're about to have time with your kid, and you need to be able to completely separate in your mind what's going on outside, and then have those those moments with them. Now, during my parenting time, if something came up and it was, you know, my brain was turning too much or I was getting too too much, sometimes I'd have to take a break there too. And you know, either have someone that can kind of come and you know give you 10 minutes or 20 minutes, or you know, taking that time just to make sure that you're protecting kind of the emotional weight of the the whole court process from not coming into the parenting time. And the more being gentle with yourself, it's not a perfect, a perfect game, but but you know, kind of moving forward and figuring it out how to do better next time if you need to kind of take some more time, like if you're short a little bit with your your kiddo, I think it's it's kind of quick to learn how to figure all that out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm hearing you say that you really need to be conscientious with scheduling that time to get yourself prepared to do whatever it is, transition, parenting time, maybe replying to affidavits. You talk about, you know, for with that, your your 24-hour rule, you wait 24 hours until you really start doing any responses so that you can experience the emotions or get your or take the time, like you said, to to get yourself in a in a in a mindset so that you can be you know brief, informative, friendly, and firm, or or that you can show up for your for your for your kiddos and be be happy and engaged and present and all the things that that that that you need to do, which which is sometimes hard. And it that takes that really takes intention, guys, right, Alex, because we're busy, like we're working, we got to get the kids ready for school, we gotta plan meals, we're dealing with it. Like, so you really need to be intentional, not only just about that, but in gener like life in general, right? Be really intentional about like taking that time. And and and you know, so the other you talk about the the the fallacy about about guys crying. The other fallacy is is like self, like taking care of ourselves is is uh selfish. You need to be the foundation that's solid, like one of those pillars that Alex talked about. You need to be solid before you can show up for your kiddo. So doing something like Alex is talking about, which is hey, a half hour before you're maybe taking some time to do a meditation, go for a walk, journal, whatever system that you create that's going to allow you to get into that that mindset for your for your kiddo is absolutely positively important. Anything to add to that?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and working out in that that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Working out, right, right. Like oh, we talk mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual here in the the the community, those four things. You need to have those in a in a solid position so that that's just your your foundation from which you're working all the time. Uh, and then and then you know just build on it.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, for me, my life ended up it it's there's actual like a physical divide through it because you have your time with your kid, you have your time not with your kid. And so during those years, my time not with my kid, 100% was focused on on the legal battle, even when it even when it wasn't time and the kind of stuff that was going on with that. And then my time with with my son Arthur was was a hundred percent with him.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So, all right, let's talk about this. The the final the final thing that I want to discuss, which which is really sensitive and and and difficult through this, and that's the the resources. You have a a pretty blunt title in in your book called Become a Money Making Machine. Talk about the financial reality of litigation in a high conflict situation and why you advise swallowing your pride to get help.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So I mean, one more caveat. I'm I'm privileged enough that I could start the fight. I'm not privileged enough that this was not a serious monetary and financial hit to get through it. I mean, it was I think it was about a hundred grand after after taxes. And I know there's people that have a lot more, people that have uh a lot less kind of through that process. And for me to eat that much was was was a lot because that was almost I don't know a lot of people have I mean there's not a ton of people have a hundred extra 100 grand just laying around.
SPEAKER_00:So I think that's pretty, yeah, that's pretty common. Yeah, to make it this tough.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and so the I mean the benefit was that I didn't you know, as tragic as that sounds, was that I didn't I didn't have my son every day. And so the other thing that I was doing, other than preparing for legal stuff, was working. And I was lucky because the field I work in, I could I could work my frontline job as well as my kind of more managerial job. And so I had two jobs that uh that I was working through. Even that wasn't enough. I kind of almost doubled the amount that I was making. And my apologies to everyone that that can't do this. I I I really feel because I I can only imagine the frustration. I do I saw some other people that were kind of navigating, and I talked to some people that were navigating a different way that I'll talk about right away here. But really kind of pushing as hard as I could that way, but as well at a cost of my health, like there was a bit of a cost of my health during that process, and then as well, even that wasn't enough, and so I borrowed borrowed from family to kind of get through that, still paying that back at this time, and and borrowed some some loans that were pretty risky, you know, just because basically, like time crunched down to day by day at that. I wasn't focused on what was gonna happen five years from now. I was you know, if they're like this, you need to pay your retainer of five grand, ten grand now, then I said, how do I do it to myself and then figured it out and just did whatever it took to get through that. And and you know, I'm I'm still paying back on some of those things, but for me it has worked out. I know it doesn't work out for everyone through that process, but there's there is a war of attrition that's gonna happen during this process, yeah, and you need to kind of either pay to play or you can self-represent. What I was surprised watching other people was that self-representation was actually from what I saw quite effective. I mean, I did things like write my own affidavits and and tried to cut down on legal costs as much as I could. But I mean, one of the most naive things was I had no idea that every email costs money, and so I was thinking sometimes two emails and now and then with that first bill came when I had 15 minutes of pop. Yep. And two lawyers between between provinces, and well, you're getting on emails. Mine were like 30 to 60, but yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were and two lawyers between two provinces because they we didn't know where it was going to occur yet. And then I got those first bills, and I'm looking like, what do you mean you're charging by the minute?
SPEAKER_00:What is what is yeah, so maybe you should put that in the book.
SPEAKER_03:Lawyers charge by the minute or by the 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and and and a minimum of 15 minutes. So if they look at two minutes and they read your email and that's it, they charge 15 minutes. So yeah, so the so the 10 a day at you know, they read 10 different ones, like, yeah, it's uh it gets really, really expensive. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I'm someone that I had I had two dogs that got old, and it was a long, long ago in a different, different relationship. And both the the first somebody was passing away. I mean, the the vet bills that I it it took me a while before I understood, I'm like, oh, he's not coming home. I have to stop paying these thousands. Because to me, my brain, it's it's like it gets very like logical with stuff, right? So I'm like, do whatever it takes, you'll figure it out later.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But uh money-wise, there's there's and then when it's kind of fighting to be a parent, that's like a whole other level, you know, where I would do whatever. And so some ways the system probably likes people like me because I'm gonna pay whatever it takes, do whatever it takes, and the perfectionism of, well, if they don't have this piece of information, maybe, even though it's probably only 0.01% of what's gonna have the effect of you know winning the next court court thing, but I'm gonna make sure they have it, you know, and then and so that costs that cost right they probably paid more because of that, because of my perfectionism.
SPEAKER_00:So the unfortunate reality is if you're in a high conflict situation, it's going to be expensive because you will need to. You're going to need to engage an attorney at some point, at some level in in this. And if if you do that, then then you're going to have to figure out how to how to pay them. The thing I will say, guys, as men, we will always make more money. There's very rarely a guy in our community I've talked to that's been down the road further after this and and and hasn't said, hey, my life is better. Yeah, it was a financial hit. We were just talking about it when in our group meeting this morning. It was a financial hit. It was short term. And and I I came back from it bigger and better and stronger than I did before. And the challenge that I had in like we talked about building yourself mentally, emotionally stronger translated into being able to make more money professionally in your business or your career or whatever, whatever it was. So you for those of those of you stressed about that, and I know like it was a big stress for me. Do what you've got to do. Alex, you talked about you know taking on basically a second on front job or second line, second frontline job, right? To to to that where you're literally work, you're working all the time. And when you're not working, you're working on your case. And then when you're not working on your case, you're you're parenting, right? Like so it's a it's a lot of of work, but you got to do what you got to do. We had Anthony Thompson on the show a few weeks ago, too. He's like, I drove Uber. I've done that. Like to make ends meet. You do what you've got to do because it is absolutely critical that that you're showing up. And I would say, Alex, the court needs more more dads like you that are going to fight for that. Because the other unfortunate reality is it only takes one party to to make a con high conflict. And and typically, and and yes, this is goes both ways for men and women, but if the one party is going to is not is not going to collaborate and cooperate, then you're going to court. Uh, and that's going to be expensive. I do want to, I do want to touch though, on the part of swallowing your pride and asking for help. And that might be that you've got to drive Uber. That might be that you've got to ask a relative for uh for a loan. That might be that you've got to do something as a as a dad to have to figure out how to make that money in order to to go down this this road and go to court. Just touch on that a little bit because it's a it's man, it's really, really hard.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, there's some difficult phone calls with that, difficult on my side, but but to to be able to kind of ask for those things. But there's it's just so worth it to to be able to kind of go through it. And you know, the the ways that I swallowed my pride was the first job that I got when I came back, I burnt it to the ground because I was more focused on my on my case. Um and really like once I made that decision, I didn't think too much of it, and then jumped into another one that was, you know, I was a bit strategic about it. It's kind of outside my normal area. But I feel guilt. I mean, I feel guilty about it because I they definitely didn't get my best work, they probably got my worst worst work. I had to focus on this other stuff. Um asking family for money and and you know, when you're in your 40s is a lot for me, but but it's it's easily justifiable for my for my for my family that I have now. Um I really like what you're saying about the jobs and that because that was my experience too, is when you kind of get through everything, the amount of energy that's going into the court cases for myself, when that's all done, it really translates into the rest of your life. And I can't we can't guarantee this for everyone, but for me as well, that was my experience was the entrepreneurial, you know, family-wise. Shortly after, you know, in most metrics, I'm in a much better space socioeconomically that I didn't even I wasn't even trying to be, but post post all the legal wrangling that in like a very surprising way. I had to there's certain things I had to do, like I had to get a house close to hers and and it and they were kind of nicer neighborhoods, and so I had to figure out a way to kind of level up what I was making while the court was going on in order to you know sell my other house and and get enough money to get into this much more expensive house and then afford the lifestyle either. And I think that because of the crunch of everything, I took risks that worked out and I was more focused that that kind of got me through all that process.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, and that's why when I'm talking to guys, I always say stay strong, right? Because it you gotta stay strong through it. But the other thing I say is you are strong enough. Because when you're when you're in it, you have no idea, right? Like it's so you have you're in that fog, you're in that washing machine, you're in that chaos, but you are strong enough. So if you stay strong, you're gonna come out like Alex, uh like myself, like all the guys that that I talk to stronger and and and better off. And no, and we talk about it, we call it life 2.0. It's hard to see that uh while you're going through it. But you know, you have your final chapter is from survival to superpower, right? So let's wrap up on share a little bit about you know a message of hope, where you're at now, and like what's that relationship like with your son now?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so I mean sons. So I have a stepson and then a daughter on the way next month. I'm in another relationship that's uh you know, it's been a couple years coming on two and a half three. And it's it's just super balanced. Like the relationship is is very kind of fair on both sides and supportive. And uh I think we're past the honeymoon period, so I think it's gonna it's gonna continue.
SPEAKER_00:And it's gonna last, great.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And and yeah, that energy was very surprising, kind of when when uh that just translated into everything else in my life. And I think I find myself at the at the place where I have a good relationship with all my kids. I'm you know, if I think about my parenting compared to my par, and my parents were good parents, but compared to my parents' parenting and other people I know, like I wouldn't trade for for how my relationship that I have with my kids and how I've showed up and how I participate with them. There's some silly things, like they wanted to take up skateboarding, so at 44, which is probably a bad decision. I built a mini ramp in the garage and oh boy.
SPEAKER_00:Well well, you're in the health, you're in the healthcare industry, so at least you have direct access to uh to getting patched up quickly and uh hopefully effectively if something goes wrong there. But but yeah, not probably not one I'm gonna do with my my old body for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, well that's so so that's great news. And that's what I would you you've got a a new relationship, it's successful, a new family, another kid on the way. I mean, there is the opportunity for again stay strong, build, come through this, and and you're gonna be bigger, you're gonna be better. You're a perfect example of that. And Alex, I sincerely appreciate that you took the time because it's no, it, it's, it's, it's, it's not quick to write a book and to share all of the information that that you've shared through this process. And so I really appreciate that that after all of this, that you've you've taken the time to to share with everybody uh your experience and how to help them through this. The book is called High Conflict Playbook: A Guide for Parents Fighting to Protect Their Kids and Maintain 50-50 Custody When Divorce Turns Ugly. Where can where can the listeners get get this book, buy it, and get involved? And I know you've got a substack and a community where you also share some uh insights as well. Where can they get in touch with you on that?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so it's on Amazon, and especially by the time this comes out, the the soft uh the paperback will be out, or the soft cover paperback will be out up there as well because it's uh it's being finalized this weekend. But I think the podcast will be a few more days before it comes out. Check that on Amazon, the substack, how to win your divorce. Substack.com and or look up Alexardain. And those are kind of the different ways to connect. And you can you can email me too if you'd like at alexardain at how to winyourdivorce.com and or alex at how to winyourdivorce.com. Sorry, I did go with the shorter name, shorter name for that. And yeah, like I'd love to hear. It's this is probably the best podcast for this information I've been on because it's it's you know, I'm a technical person. I feel like we got really technical to the details of how this will go. And just to everyone out there, just keep walking through it. It's it it will feel like there's no hope and like you should walk away and not not kind of it. Like for me, it felt 100% that that's what what I should do, but just keep walking and uh because your your kids are worth it and and you're worth it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, perfect. And I just want to add, gentlemen, if if you found some value in what you heard today and and what and what we shared, please sh please share this episode far and wide wide on social media. Send it to another dad that might be going through this challenging time. Leave us a star rating, give us a comment. The comments really, really help. It shows other dads that were in the beginning of this or contemplating or in the thick of it, that this is somewhere to come and listen to and get some help and and find some resources. So again, Alex, it was such a pleasure speaking. Everybody, go check things, uh, check things out, buy the book if you're going through it. Even if your post on that, get it because it's gonna the the the relational dynamic doesn't stop, as as those of us that are that are in it know. So it'll it'll help get you educated on that. Alex, thanks so much.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
