298 - REPLAY: Fathers Versus The Pull Of Mediocrity

When culture lowers the bar, fathers feel crazy for raising it. We sat down with therapist, mentor, and outdoorsman Ken Curry to name what’s really slipping—and to chart a stronger path: presence over distraction, authority over control, and adventure over comfort. From the grocery line to the courtroom, we trace how attention gets captured, standards get blurred, and dads get mislabeled for doing the hard, healthy work of setting boundaries.

Ken breaks down the two essential energies kids need: the mother’s focus on well-being and the father’s drive for confidence. Together they create balance; split across two homes, they can become a tug of war. We get practical about helping kids “switch systems” after custody exchanges, using clear values, steady routines, and calm follow-through so house rules feel like culture, not combat. We also unpack the crucial difference between authoritative parenting and authoritarian control, especially when firm expectations are unfairly framed as harshness by outsiders who don’t live the day-to-day.

This conversation returns again and again to your internal frame—the identity, values, and emotional composure that make leadership feel safe and strong. Ken shares ways to build that frame, from men’s groups and mentoring to simple rituals like shared chores, limited screens, family dinners, and planned adventures that stretch kids in all the right ways. Presence is not a buzzword; it’s a practice that turns ordinary moments into trust and turns resistance into respect. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re “too strict” or simply the only adult holding the line, you’ll leave with clarity, language, and tools you can use tonight.

If this resonates, share it with a dad who needs backbone and encouragement, subscribe for more honest conversations about fatherhood, and leave a review with the one boundary you’re committed to holding this week. Your kids are counting on you.

Being unprepared is how great fathers become weekend visitors. Most ground is lost quietly through "drift" and decisions made under pressure. Stop the drift today at TheDivorcedDadvocate.com.

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Transcript

Why Talk About Mediocrity Now

Introducing Ken Curry And His Work

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Hello and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here today and listening. We've got a phenomenal, phenomenal guest today. We're going to be taking a break from the Dad's Guide to Divorce because this topic was incredibly important to me that came up. And so we're going to be talking about fatherhood in the age of mediocrity. But before I introduce my guests, got a couple of show notes. First, wanted to welcome Zach and Andy to the Divorce Advocate community. And if you're not part of our community, check it out at thedivorced advocate.com. Get the support that you need. We've got any everything and anything from free to paid resources wherever you're at and whatever you need, we have it at thedivorced advocate.com. Also wanted to mention that the new fan mail feature on our uh podcast episodes. I'm getting your I'm getting your fan mail. I'm not able to respond to it. So starting next week, I will be putting in a segment of responding to the fan mail each week as things come in. So don't stop doing that because I'm not responding. I will respond uh on air and in the show. So let me introduce my guest today. He is a father, husband, grandfather, mentor, friend, bow hunter. You bow hunters are amazing. I'm a hunter, but not not skilled enough as you are, a lover of the outdoors, and also a licensed marriage and family therapist here in Colorado. His practice specialty is manhood, masculinity, and relationships, and is continually exploring new avenues of strength, vitality, and purpose for himself and the men he works with. He works from the premise that masculinity is good, that each man brings significance into our world, and that men have been designed to move with freedom, presence, and strength. Along with individual and relationship counseling, he provides groups for men to build personal integrity and strength so men will influence their world with intent and passion. And he's also got the website solidman.com. Please welcome Ken Curry to the show. Ken, great to see you again. Thanks, Jude. What a good introduction. Yeah, man. Well, you are a renaissance man. And so I was mentioned to you just briefly as as we got uh here in the studio that this this I this idea for the podcast came to me literally yesterday morning. And I want to sincerely thank you for for on short notice uh jumping on with me to to talk about it. But it's uh it's a genesis of just experiences that I've been having recently, and not just recently, but you know, in in the the short term for several years, but with the assassination that that has is attempt that went on, which is just a terrible, awful thing to see a young man that uh decided to do something so so horrific. And then uh you know, just having some other experiences, like I was mentioning also that in the grocery store the other day, just having a checker on her phone watching TV with your earbud in. And and this, these are the people that actually can they can get to work, right? But this whole this whole mindset of of of mediocrity and and and and and just uh not having a an aim in life and just kind of floating along and how that impacts us as fathers, because I know that I have uh I have battled, literally battled against this with my children and their experiences in school, with their friends, etc. And so I just wanted us to have a conversation. I was thinking, man, who could I talk to about this? And you're the first name that came to the top of my head because I know all the work, I know some of your background, and maybe you can share a little bit of that with uh with us, but and the work that you do. And I just wanted us to have a conversation around that for the dads that are not going through divorce, but also the dads that are post-divorce and the dads that are going through divorce, knowing that there's gonna be there is high, high probability there's gonna be a a battle around making you know creating that discipline, having that uh authority, uh authoritative mindset that that dads bring to uh to the children, etc. That's become a battleground literally these days. So I'll take from there, share a little bit about you, but then let's also dive into that.

Phones, Distraction, And The Loss Of Presence

Attention As A Father’s Primary Gift

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, so just a little bit about me, the thing said I was a the thing. The introduction really gave me the the I'm a father, I've got three kids, they're all adults now. I've now got two grandsons, three and and nine months, and that's been a lot of fun. That's been a big shift with my wife and I being able to how do we do grand grandkids? And it's uh it's been a lot of fun, but it's creating in me the the similar thing to what you're talking about is how are these boys going to grow up in in this world? And and a lot of things you're talking about, the the whole thing of how people use social media, you know, the idea of I mean, social media has come in and become such a massive thing in our in our world. I was just telling you, uh, we were off doing our 40th anniversary trip this last week, and we were on a cruise, and we're in the most beautiful one of the most beautiful places on the planet, going through the Norwegian fjords, going in and out of there. Those things are fantastic. It's just beautiful. And when we're on the ship, it's like people are just stuck on their phone and we're going, What is this? What is this? You're in a place that's just incredibly beautiful, and so many people, especially with the kids, and there's a lot of families there, and a lot of the well, a lot of the families just the the screen time put their kid, give the kid a uh iPad, and just kind of hope he's gonna be okay. It's just kind of that is kind of how parenting is done. And and even with the individuals, how everybody just seems like screens and and looking at your phone is the thing. And it just seems really unfortunate, especially when you think about something that we were doing. We just noticed it everywhere. And we're going, we're in this really beautiful place, and there's so many things to experience, and yet you find the the need to be on your cell phone. Yeah, it's like that seems to me really problematic. And I think mostly the the big word that kind of comes to me, Jude, when you're talking about this is the idea of presence. And and for a father, that to me is one of the most significant things that a man has to be able to provide. You know, we talk about how fathers provide and protect as two really significant things that men do as far as being fathers. And I think the idea of provide, oftentimes what we'll we'll think about what do we provide is money, shelter, safety, you know, education, all the stuff that men want to provide, make sure their kids are doing okay. But the most important thing that a man has to provide is his presence. Yeah. And it's being there. And it's and it's being attentive, and it's being literally being there, not just with my physical body, but my my attention. Because your attention and your presence, your attention is one of the most valuable things that you have to offer the world. It's it's one of the most significant things. And so if you think about attention, that is the currency or the commodity that is being bought and sold in the whole social media world, right? Yeah. It's like it's your attention is what makes Facebook work or what makes Instagram work. When your eyes are looking at that thing, then they have the ads and all this, and that's how they make their money is your attention. And you got to realize my attention is easily one of the most valuable things that I have to offer. Not only does it pay the pay the rent for not just the rent to billionaires who own those companies, but you got to look at this and go, this is what I have to give my children. Yeah. And my attention, my presence is the most, I think it's the most important thing that a man has to provide. And so in this world, you're talking about mediocrity and all this, and and how we get so distracted on on these things that are that are completely irrelevant. Not necessarily saying something like the the really tragic thing that happened with the with the attempted assassination. I mean, that that's something we need to we need to know what's going on here. But the whole thing of how we get distracted just generally, how we just kind of go to our phone when we wake up or when we have a when we're waiting in line or or whatever, it's just like boom, it just gets our attention. And so I think that that's the first thing that comes to mind when you talk about this whole idea of mediocrity and and fathering and and how do men actually navigate this. That's the first thing that comes to mind, Jude, as far as thinking, what's the challenge for men, is to give my attention to my children. Yeah. And and that's a real and what I'm doing with my attention is I'm giving them me. Yeah. And that's a really powerful thing. And whether whether it's with my kids or or it's whoever I'm with at any given moment, it could be could be my wife, it could be you know who's really special to me, but we're specifically talking about your dads.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So what are you thinking about all that?

Diverging Homes After Divorce

SPEAKER_00 10:01

No, so you so my one of my one of my first thoughts was and what questions was going to be around what do you feel are the origins of this mediocrity. So you read my you read my mind, and we did obviously we we don't we don't script this, but this is why I call smart people like you to be on the show because because you've got a much better idea around this. So so what I'm hearing you say though is that uh is that parenting is is one of the big challenges that that may be the origin around this this mediocrity and the ability to really be present in parenting and mitigate the the challenges of stuff like social media that it's now you know every generation has had a challenge that has drawn away from presence, right? Like it could have been a radio, it could have been TV, it could have been a sporting event. So over time, that's always been that's always been the case. There's always been jockeying against uh presence and parenting and and and and and being able to focus on what you you need to do. So so you answered so you answered that question for me, which I would wholeheartedly uh agree with, and that's as parents, and particularly as dads, and we are we are tasked with and it's natural for us to be able to provide that that guidance, that uh that discipline, that focus, uh etc. That's just a masculine nature. And and the the the book, the the boy crisis, Dr. Farrell talks a lot about the differences in this and why why men and boys may be struggling these days. And and he does talk about exactly that the differences between what dads bring to to parenting and the difference to what moms bring to parenting. And when we get into to divorce now and you have separate households, you got dad's household and you got mom's household, what I find with a lot of guys that I work with, and it's been my personal experience too, is that then that that household with mom becomes a different experience and environment than the household with dad, which is a different how different environment and experience. And because men and women, fathers and mothers, parent differently in the ideal situation where you're parenting together, those are complement, you know, they complement each other and they help to guide the children and have them grow up to be healthy functioning adults. Now it becomes, it can become, if there's unhealthy one, at least one unhealthy person in that dynamic, adversarial and an unhealthy to the children, too, because then one gets emphasized. And then we can speak also to a little bit about the emphasis on motherhood and mothers know best and and feminine presence, etc. Because I think that's uh along with that uh glamorizing of single motherhood, there's also been a diminishment of fatherhood and the importance of fathers in their children's lives.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, I that that the diminishment that it is to me, it's really tragic. It is completely a tragic thing, and I see it just see it too often, not just personally in my own family and some of my relatives of their experience, but also just a lot of the men that I work with. It's just been really tough. It's rare that I see an occasion where the court system actually respects the father, and it just doesn't happen enough. And uh I mean there's a number of different reasons for that, but I'm not sure, Jude, exactly what the question is that you're asking right now. Are you are you kind of asking what do I see as the difference between those two? The mother and father type of thing?

Confidence Versus Well-Being: Two Energies

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Let's talk about um let's let's talk about the the because you're an expert in this, you do work with men, you see the the dynamics in uh in in practice between the two. Let's talk about because I know I hear from guys all the time, and I know I felt this way too. Like, am I crazy? I I just want my kids to take out the trash. I want my kids to be respectful, I want the kids to get like I, you know, I want them to have focus, I want them to have some discipline. I'm I'm not uh uh you know an authoritarian, but there is authoritative stuff. Like I have expectations for them, these are high expectations, and those get undermined and diminished not only by the court system, but oftentimes with mothers who don't think that way. And that's okay not for them not to think that way, except diminishing it and saying that it's wrong and then doing things even worse, which I see all the time, and I understand that I'm in a little bubble here, it's not everybody, but then alienating children from from that because they think that their way is the right way, et cetera. So what can you know what can guys, you know, what what are the signs of a healthy father? Let's talk about that first, and and and that dynamic so that guys that are that are doing this as fathers don't feel like, well, am I wrong? Am I being too harsh, etc.?

Structure, Flexibility, And Real-World Grit

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah, I think the thing is is being able to think about generally, and you were talking about the best case scenario of mom and dad in the in the intact family and and all that. And so when those bring when mom and dad bring a complimentary energy into the relationship, that's really what we want. And let me kind of explain what those energies are real quick, and then think about how does that actually play out if it's in a a family that's not intact. And so the whole thing of the the mom's energy primarily is is what I would call well-being. I forget how Warren Farrell might say it in that book. You'd said he kind of claimed uh or defines it, but for me it's well-being. The mom is about safety, it's about security, making sure the kids are okay, all this. And that's and it's about well-being. I want my kids to be okay. Uh, a father's energy is about confidence. I want my kids to have the capacity to be able to navigate life with with confidence, to be able to know I can handle it. I got this. And and when you have your you know, a dad, man, he when when he knows my kids are 18 and they're headed out on their own and they got the capacity to navigate life and they got confidence, man, his heart just wells up. Go do it, kid, go. Whereas mom, she's still scared, going, Oh my gosh, my kid's leaving. I no longer have any control over their well-being. Are they gonna be okay? That type of thing. And and so it's like, or or when the kid goes off to spend time with friends, you know, mom always says, be careful, and dad always says, have fun. Fun, right. Yeah, it's kind of it's just a different energy that mom and dad has. And so the whole thing of being a father, if it if it's just you, you now kind of have both those energies that you have to navigate. And so, how do I actually consider well-being? How do I consider safety and security within my home while my kids are with me, while I work on the whole idea of discipline, because discipline and creating moments where things aren't as easy, life isn't fair, and dads are like, kids, life isn't fair. I mean, we're we are on top of that, yep, and we know it. And we're willing to allow our kids to be in difficult situations where they might get hurt and scrape a knee or or even break a bone. It's like we're we want our kids to get out there and try stuff and and feel what it's like because that's what builds resilience and grit in a kid, and that's what brings confidence, and that's what we want is that. But oftentimes it kind of might push it a little bit too far to a degree. And so when we're talking about having both the energies, I have to make sure that I create a safe environment for my children, I have to be aware of that, and while at the same time building that confidence and building their negative capacity to handle difficult things because that's what dads do. Right. And so we want to have fun, we want to have adventure, we want to go test things, we want to try hard things and things like that. And allowing our kids to experience those things, instead of giving them a bubble or hovering around being a helicopter parent, it's like I want my kids to experience what it feels like to lose a ball game or to get hurt or to feel the pain of losing, you know, somebody dying or something like that. I want my kids to experience what life is really all about. And so that's kind of the father energy. I hope I'm kind of making sense.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, go ahead. What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, absolutely, because I think this is this is hard, particularly in the environment that I just described, but also for those, those of us that are men that did not maybe have a father figure that helped us understand what this is. So for me, learning what you just described succinctly and you know in a couple of minutes has taken me decades, right? So, you know, being able to have men hear that and say, Oh, this is that natural energy that I feel when I just simply ask my children to do something because I know that by them doing something every day, if they're supposed to do that, that's going to lead to something better in the future. Whereas mom's like, well, they're tired or whatever. And you know, again, it's that nurturing and what and whatever. It's complimentary. It can be, it can be both, but you're not wrong in wanting to have them have you know a focus or a discipline or whatever else. So, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So let's talk about the fee, the the feminine then.

Boundaries, Respect, And Adventure

Courts, Labels, And The Authoritarian Trap

SPEAKER_01 19:29

So the feminine side of it really is the whole thing of just making sure everybody's safe and okay. And you you kind of described it there, you know, oh, they're tired and all that. There's either one of these can be taken, you know, you got your spectrum, and they can take them, swing the pendulum to being way too much, like being a helicopter parent, right? Or really worried about my kids ever get hurt, you know, because then they're never gonna experience anything. So the feminine, the mother energy, if it's taken too far, their kids aren't gonna be disciplined, they're never gonna be challenged, they're never going to have a structure around them that's gonna create the the necessity or the the um importance of taking the trash out or picking up the dog poop or whatever it is, right? Ooh, that's gross. Yes, it is. Now get out there and do it, you know. It's like, yeah, and my brother doesn't have to do it. Well, life isn't fair, you know. This is your job right now. I mean, that that's a dad's energy, right? But the feminine will will kind of swing it too far. And oftentimes, and this is what's really unfortunate, oftentimes when the one person, like let's say with the I call it a not an intact family, the the father's over here with when he has the kids, the mom's over here. And usually what happens is the pendulum swung where that energy becomes the dynamic of the home at that point. Yes. So when the kids go over to mom, they don't have discipline, they don't have the the challenges, they don't have the structure that you might have as a dad. And and it's like that doesn't matter, you know. The thing about it is oftentimes what I'll hear dads, they'll feel very reluctant or hesitant to create the strong boundaries and the and the and the really significant structure in the family because they'll go, when my kids come over here, they're not gonna like being here. They're gonna rather be with mom because mom doesn't call them out to do these things. And it's like, yeah, that that might be true, but when it comes down to it, as the kids get older, the they they respect it a lot more. Yes. And and oftentimes the kids they they understand what it is, especially if you're not just being a uh a domineering character, but you have a lot of fun with life as well. Sure. And and that's why I I bring the idea of adventure in because adventure is just going out and having a lot of fun, but doing tough things, going for a tough hike, or going, you know, canoeing or doing something that is fun, but has the capacity or the potential to create some kind of stress, right? That right, oh my arms are killing me, or my I I can't walk anymore, or I need whatever it is, right? That's what dads do. And and so I guess what I'm what I'm saying is don't not just don't hesitate, just see it as this is how I need to do it. And and I would say having the structure, having the boundaries, having the the rules is a really significant thing, but balancing with the with the flexibility of having fun and enjoying life. And because of uh in family therapy, one of the one of the categories is flexibility and rigidity. As a as a family therapist would look at a family, and if a family moves over too much on flexibility, that means there's no rules, there's no structure, the kid you don't have bedtime at a certain time, you don't have food at a certain time. Some families without structure don't even know when they're gonna eat or if they're gonna eat. It's that kind of you know, it's that flexible. But then some families are too rigid, they have too many rules. It's the old movie The Great Santini, kind of a it's a military family, you know, where it's like you line up and you get inspected before you go to school, type of thing. And and everybody has to do their their their their thing, what they have to do, their chores before they go to bed or before you even eat or whatever. It's too rigid. And so what you want is a really good balance between structure and flexibility. Right. And that's what you're looking for. And so being able to see that that's what we want is being able to go, I need to have structure in my family, but yet a good level of flexibility. Where sometimes, you know, okay, today we're taken off from our chores, or we're gonna go do this. Right. But and so there's a time for that. So I hope that helps.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

I don't know if that really explains the masculine and feminine much, but I think no, I think it does in the context that I wanted to have this conversation about mediocrity, because what it seems like is with this emphasis on on motherhood and on mothers know best and you know, single mothers as a superpower, like whatever slogan you want to, you know, they've got a million of them now, which is which is which is great because it's it's it is hard being a single parent, whether you're a single mother or a single father. So I I I don't want to diminish the fact that single motherhood is not hard because it definitely is. Absolutely. Um but as we've as we have moved into or moved towards that being like the way that you're supposed to be to parent in what you just described, which is if it goes too far to to that to that spectrum, that's where we get the failure to launch. This is where we get then the what's happening, what uh is happening now, and oftentimes where the the courts are moving ever increasingly moving this age limit of where the kids can decide what parent they want to be with. It's you know, it used to be like 18, okay, that's the age, and they're off, they're basically adults. Now it's like six it's was 16. Oh yeah. Now they're really pushing, like, oh, they're 13, they can decide where they want to go. And this is absolute crap because even at 18, 19, 20, they don't have the the development and the knowledge to to know or understand the simplicity of how important taking the trash out is in their adult life and how that's going to serve them in their adult life. And so if they don't like that, they say, I want to go stay with mom because it's gonna be comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

He lets me play video games for eight hours.

Different Systems, Same Kids: Making The Shift

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Exactly, exactly, which which I want them, the men that are listening to to understand. And you used a great word, and it's boundaries. These boundaries are important, and creating these expectations around and and boundaries is an important thing. And so let's talk about the you touched on it a little bit also, the the difference between authoritative and authoritarian, because this is starting to be language in the family law court that we're hearing that is being used against men, and it's really divisive because it's it's subjective. You like I, you know, because I told them to take out a trash in a bit mean tone, that's authority, you know, that's authoritarian, right? And you're an authoritarian parent, and you're not, you know, uh you're too harsh on them as as a being as opposed to the opposite, which I you know, I did it in a fun manner or an adventurous manner or or whatever. So let's talk about it. Or even I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Hey dad, Jude here. I'm pausing this conversation for a mission critical warning. Everything we discuss on this podcast only works if you have a role to return to. Most fathers don't lose their kids in court, they lose ground quietly through drift and decisions made under pressure. Being unprepared is how great fathers become weekend visitors. I ensure your mistakes don't become your permanent reality. Stop the drift today at thedivorcedadvocate.com. Take the free weekend visitor risk assessment or book your fatherhood protection session. Your kids are counting on you. Now back to the show.

Holding Fast Without Losing Composure

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Right, exactly. Just kind of let them okay, I'll take out the trash. Exactly. And so, and oftentimes the thing about it is is it becomes when our children don't respond to us, oftentimes what happens is it becomes something very frustrating to us, and we lose our emotional, what would you call that? Presence. Yeah, control. Well, it's emotional presence, it's control. I was thinking of the the actual word of where I'm emotionally controlled and and I'm stable and I don't let the frustrations get to where it becomes something where I get ah, you know, take the damn trash out, you know, or whatever. Where yeah, I maintain my composure, and that's a really, really important part of this whole thing. Because when I get intense or when I get aggressive or that type of thing, that's what really isn't it I don't think it's it's appropriate anyway. But when you start talking about authoritarian, when I become a controlling parent where it's like you have to do this, and if you and and it becomes it's a different it's a totally different kind of posture, and it's a different kind of power that you that you have. My power is over you. I'm controlling you, I'm making you do something. That's kind of the the the control that we don't want to experience is that power over. But as a dad, you want your power for your kids. I want to teach my kids how to do life where they're doing life, they're doing this well, where I'm teaching them how to that taking out the trash is part of responsibility, part of how you do life. It's just this is this is life. And so where the where it's not something I'm telling them to do or that I'm controlling them to do, but it's something that we do. This is just what we do in this house. We we do our chores, we chip in, we care for each other, you know. It it's more of a the overarching values that I have as a family rather than forcing them to do something. Does that make sense, Jim? Yeah, how that's different. And so my authority as a parent is I dictate the values that we have as a family. Right. I dictate the structure that we have. I'm I'm saying bedtimes at this time or dinner times at this time, or this is the type of food we eat, or or this is what we do on our off time, or this is how much screen time you get during the day. I'm able to dictate that. I have that authority, right? But as far as how I'm able to make that happen, or or to it's that's where do I have to be an authoritarian, or do I have an authority where I the my authority is respected? And what's really hard, Jude, and this is what you're talking about, is our kids, our kids come from another place that they don't have, they may not have any of that structure, and then all of a sudden they step into our home, and it's as though they have to they have to do a mental shift that and it sometimes it takes a while where they have to shift because now they're in a completely different system. And this system that they're in has a different structure. Yeah, it has a different value system, it has a different way of doing things, a different boundaries, like like I was saying, what the hook, you know, and and so that that shift, it's really interesting because I knew a family once that there uh he was actually a linguist. He studied at the University of Oregon, and he knew he knew multiple languages, but his kids knew five different languages, and they had three kids, and we're interacting with the kids, and and the mother was she's Norwegian, she was talking in in Norwegian, and and then the kids turned to me and you can see their head going into English, right? You just see them shift into another category. Yeah. And it was really fascinating how how language was with this family. But what I'm talking about is is kids making that shift, right? Where it's like doo doo doo doo doo now. I'm in a different system, and you have to allow your kids to be able to do that. But that's part of when my kids come into my home, I recognize that they're coming into a completely different way of doing things, right? And recognizing and shifting from where they're at and whatever mom's doing with them to coming into this. But that's where the boundaries and the structure I have to hold fast with exactly this is the way this house is. Yes. And and being able to see and letting them make the shift. And and and if they don't make the shift, guiding them to be able to shift. This is this is where you're at right now.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Yeah, and let's talk about that too, is hold that holding fast too, because what I what I see a lot of times is father's fearful around that because of the fallout that can happen in the family law s system, as well as dealing with uh with an ex that might be vindictive. And I've experienced it myself. Hours of depositions of why did you do this, why did you do that, CFI investigation, principal responsibility evaluations where they're going into detail and asking ridiculous questions of the yeah?

Build Your Internal Frame As A Man

SPEAKER_01 33:03

And and the the hard the hardest part of this, dude, is that what I'm talking about right now is how to do a healthy family, how to have a healthy family structure and everything, and and being able to have boundaries and and and systems in place and and the the structure, like I said, eight o'clock bedtime, or whatever it is, it's like or one hour of screen time a day, or whatever it is that you have as your structure, it's like that is seen as authoritarian, or that is seen as as unhealthy in the family courts. And I'm going, who the heck is running this thing? It's insanity because it is insanity. Because like like you're okay, so part of what you were talking at the very beginning is how does it how does a dad feel like he's not crazy? Yeah. Because the court thing, the courts are saying, don't be so rough on your kids, or don't be, you know, don't have so many boundaries, or don't whatever it is, and they're and they're going, yeah, but that's what healthy families are. Yeah. Is having having, like I said, a really good balance between structure and flexibility. Right. And and you're going, I'm trying my best here. And and the hesitation, I think to your point, the fear, if I do this too much, will I get backlash from the court? Or like you said, when my kid's 13, will they pick being with mom because mom lets them do eight hours of of video games a day, you know, or whatever it is, right? And you're going, is that my fear that that I'm gonna lose my kids, you know, if I if I am healthy with how I do my family?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

It's not a fear, it's happening. And it's happening all across the the country and all across the world, unfortunately. And and and and you know, and and and uh you you talk about how do we not feel a crazy, and I'm that's a question I ask because it seems that out every like when they go to school on social media, everywhere, there's not that message of what we are describing here. There's there's a few that are out there, but it's not prevalent. And I've literally can sat in in therapist's office with a therapist with my daughters, and the therapist says, Well, do you want, you know, do you want to do you wanna hold this, uh, hold to to this disciplinary issue and boundary, or do you want to have a relationship with your children? And I'm like, this is this, these are not mutually exclusive. And if you're gonna make me pick one, I'm gonna pick the disciplinary boundary because if I don't have a relationship with them and they grow up to be healthy functioning adults, but they don't like me, but I accomplished my job as a as a dad because that's my job. My job isn't to be their friend or to to raise them to have a healthy relationship with me, but to have a dysfunctional relationship with themselves and everybody else in the world, then I will pick that. And that's exactly what I said. But this isn't with a therapist in front of my daughters. And it's and it's and it's so when when we're us dads are in this sometimes, it's like I'm crazy. Like if I didn't, if I hadn't been through the seven, eight, nine years before in dealing with this, I'd have walked out of there and been like, I'm a terrible dad, I'm not doing this right, which is completely not true, not at all true. And this wasn't like this was not a major issue, and that is what the therapist said to me. And so, uh, so I just I say that to for the for the dads listening that get involved and let's talk about maybe some some some ways that we can feel comfortable with that, understand, you know, like you've got your men's group, the solid men, and we've got the divorced advocate. There's other men's groups out there. Like, give us some give some ideas and tips what guys can do so that they're not feeling crazy, that this the way that they're being dads is important. And I and I and I want to preface that also with every study out there, and I and everybody who's listens to to more than one episode hears me say this. I try to say it every episode, shows that the most important thing that you can possibly do is be involved in your children's lives. That is the number one indicator of a child growing up to have a healthy and functioning adult life, is if their father is involved in their lives. So let's talk about how we do that and not feel crazy.

Masculinity Is Good: Reclaiming Leadership

SPEAKER_01 37:18

So, what you're talking about, dude, just first, I totally have a ton of empathy for the fact that like you the pickle you were put in in that therapist's office, it's the same pickle that we're talking about. Do I do I have a strong sense of boundaries and structure within my family when my kids are with me? Or or do I, you know, the whole thing, is that actually the the mutually exclusive choice that do I have a relationship with my kids or to grow up really healthy individuals? Right? It's it's like it seems like that's at play. And probably the most the number one thing here, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with that choice or what I'm doing as a parent, but it it's more of who am I as a man and and being able the doing the work to become a strong, internally referenced man where I know who I am, I know what I want, I know what my values are, I know what my moral compass is, and and I have this internal frame. And your internal frame is a very similar thing to like frame, like a frame in your house. Right. You know, I've got my I've got my concrete foundation with the footers, I've got the the the base plates, I've got the studs, I've got the headers, I've got the joists, that's what my house is made of. And it's frame, right? And it's not gonna move. And and it's a strong structure. And we want to be able to build a very similar strong frame within us. And so if I don't have a strong internal frame where I don't really know who I am, I don't really know what my values are, and and I'm dealing with shame myself or the whole idea of not feeling like I'm good enough or something's wrong with me, then I'm gonna have a hard time doing life period. And so being able to do the work to build a really strong internal frame is probably the most important thing that a dad can do. So that what he has to bring to his kids is is strong and and it's secure. And so when he moves toward his kids, he knows who he is and what he wants and and and how he interacts because he has more of that emotional, what do we call it?

SPEAKER_00 39:30

I still can't find our composure. Yeah, exactly.

Don’t Isolate: Find Your Brotherhood

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Exactly. Because I because I'm aware of what's going on inside of me, and I'm aware of my emotional process and and all the different things within. And and that is probably the most important work that a man can do. And how however you would ever want to do that, there's a ton of good books out there. There's a ton of the that's what my men's group, individual work, there not a number of guys would be able to help you. There's a lot of ways to be able to build this internal frame. Um and even uh your own little doing your own group, yeah, having a a reading, a book club, or re reading through some really good material, you know, and and working with it with other guys. And as as long as you're working with somebody who knows what they're talking about of building the frame, or you're with other guys with that purpose where we we all want to become strong men. Right. And and this and that's what I meant when in in an introduction, masculinity is good. Yes. And and so often what we hear is masculinity is not good. You're not good because you're a man. Even even the word patriarchy, and this is literally what we're talking about, because the idea the word patriarchy, patry is father, and archie is rule. So father rule. Think about this. We were just talking about how does a dad do father rule in his own home when his kids are in his own home? That's patriarchy. How does a dad and and see that's the thing that the court that because patriarchy is like the evil, it's so evil in our world now, right? But it's not, it's a beautiful, wonderful, amazing thing when a dad actually has leadership in his family. Right. It's a wonder, it's a beautiful thing. And so being able to think about it and go, me ruling and me leading my family is a really beautiful thing. It's not a heinous thing that's like this controlling over and oppressive and all this. Right. And so, gosh, what am I saying?

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Yeah, no, I'm saying a lot of stuff, dude. No, I think you I think you summed it up beautifully because basically what you said is don't isolate, get involved however you want to do that. That could be therapy, just know that you know that you've got a therapist that understands masculinity. We talk about this too, and and I've done episodes on questions to ask your therapist before getting in there. And some of that is around what you're talking about, what you're viewing on patriarchy, how do you feel about toxic masculinity? Some of those questions because look, just like any profession, there's a lot of crappy therapists, just like there's a lot of crappy plumbers or or whatever, you got to interview to know. So just don't trust the first one. If you don't feel comfortable, go and look for other ones, or but find other other resources too. Other guys start your own. A book club is a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

And and do the do the work.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

That's really what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Yeah, that the big thing to answer your question, what do my kids need? They need a dad who is solid, a dad who knows who he is, a dad who has that internal frame of of identity and and values and moral compass and his faith and everything that I'm really aware of all this in me, and I'm able to move forward with the confidence with who I am. Right. That that's that's really the big thing that I wanted to say, Judy.

Resources And How To Reach Ken

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Right. And during divorce, this is an opportunity to do that. Your world is is changing. It's gonna change whether you like it or not. It's probably, and and uh I could say 99% of the guys that I talk to, it's a an opportunity and a time for self-reflection and really understanding what's going on in your life because it's one of the most difficult things that you're gonna go through. So it is, and you don't have to do it all at once. Like we don't have to fix it all at once, we don't have to figure it out all at once. You're not ever gonna figure it all out, right? Because even at our advanced age camp, we haven't figured it all out. But we've got some, you know, we're just a little bit ahead of where somebody who's listening might be. So just take that time and do that work. I I think that's the the perfect thing. Don't self-isolate, get involved with with other men, seek uh seek help. That's another hard thing for for men sometimes. It is uh because those you know, those of us have been through it want to help, we want to be there, we want to mentor, we want to share our experiences as well. And when you start to do that, and I don't know what your experience is, but when I started to share those things and heard from guys speaking back the same, you know, the same stuff that was going in my head, I'm like, oh, I'm not crazy.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Oh wow, this is And I'm not I am not alone. Yeah. That that's the biggest thing. I'm not alone, I'm not crazy. It is it's such a big thing. Because that that's the you said don't isolate. I didn't use that word, but that's what I was talking about. Yeah, that is probably one of the most significant problems that men have in our in our world today. It's it's the I think that's why we have such a horrible suicide rate. Yes, because men are isolating and and it literally will save your life to get involved with other guys. Yep, absolutely there's no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Absolutely. So, Ken, before we wrap up, share with how the audience can connect with you and get involved with you.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Sure. My website's kind of been wonky lately, but it does share a little bit of information, the solidman.com. But probably the best way to get a hold of me would be my email, KenCurry L M Ft at gmail.com. So it's KenCurry L M F T at Gmail.com. It's probably the best way to directly get a hold of me for sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

And for those listening, that's C-U-R-R-Y-L-M-F-T. Exactly. Gmail. Gmail.com. Okay, perfect. Yep. Kent, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for the short notice. You man, you just hit it out of the ballpark. I I I knew you were the man to talk about this, but I sincerely appreciate all the work that you do and our on our shared passion for uh for for helping men and and the impact that that has on the world in general. So thank you. I sincerely appreciate it for

SPEAKER_01 45:35

It's an honor to thank you very much. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Take care.