319 - High-Conflict Co-Parenting — The 'Tit for Tat' Boundary System That Actually Works

False allegations, an unmarried father with no custody rights, and a newborn taken across the country — this is a survival playbook for high-conflict custody battles. If you're searching for help with divorce, child custody, high-conflict co-parenting, or parental alienation, this conversation puts real language around what you're living and how to respond without self-destructing.

A week after his son is born, Ajdin comes home to an empty apartment: furniture gone, kitchen stripped, and his newborn gone across the country. Then comes the gut-punch — under Dutch law, an unmarried father has no custody by default; the mother holds it alone. What follows is a long, high-conflict custody battle: supervised visits, relocations, financial pressure, and a steady drip of manufactured accusations built to paint him as dangerous and unstable.

We unpack how fathers get trapped by the "keep it civil" instinct, why unreciprocated flexibility backfires, and the red flags that signal control instead of cooperation. Ajdin shares what it felt like to face false allegations — even "evidence" that involved coaching a small child — and the counterweight that actually moves the needle in family court: calm execution, a forensic paper trail, and a team that can translate chaos into strategy.

Then we get into his most useful framework: a game-theory approach to boundaries he calls tit for tat. Start cooperative, enforce the limit the instant it's crossed, then return to cooperation the moment the other parent does — without reliving old battles. It's not about being nice or winning arguments. It's about building a stable operating system for parenting time and decision-making while you protect your nervous system through "practiced calm" — tactics like killing message notifications and never replying in the heat of the moment.

In this episode: unmarried fathers' custody rights · how to respond to false allegations in family court · the "keep it civil" trap · red flags of a controlling co-parent · building a forensic paper trail · the tit-for-tat boundary system · practiced calm under high conflict.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Hello and welcome back to this week's show and briefing. Gentlemen, today we're taking a deep, uncompromising dive into what it actually takes to hold the line for your children when the entire apparatus of the modern family law is stacked against you. Now, I know many of you dads who come into this community start with the exact same story. They tell me something like, Hey, we want to keep it civil. I'm just going to stay flexible. I'm taking the high road. I'll let her cool down, something to this effect. And once she sees I'm playing fair, we'll we'll work out everything else, the 50-50 parenting time, the decision making, etc. And

Why Civility Can Be A Trap

SPEAKER_02 1:43

now that can happen, dads, but lots of times, and even if you're not in that place yet of high conflict, this story is a mirage. It's the piece that you bought with for many of you, and this was my case and my guest today's case. It's the piece you bought by being a yes man during your relationship. And that's the long and short of it. And you're mistakenly assuming that if you just keep submitting, she'll play fair in return. And so today, my guest is a man who learned that lesson the hardest possible way. His name is Ideen Kolinich. Kolinich? Damn it, I tried so hard. I was working so hard on that. And he's the author of a powerful new memoir called Fighting to Be Father, a memoir of love, justice, and legacy. And Iden's a former corporate business analyst, a tennis entrepreneur, and a mental toughness coach living in Amsterdam. Nine years ago, when his son was born outside of marriage, he walked into a legal nightmare. He was living in Amsterdam at the time, and under Dutch law, an unmarried mother held 100% sole custody by default. And he experienced within one week of his son's birth, his ex packing up the apartment, taking all the furniture, down to the plastic cutlery and moving across the country. So Ideen went from being an expectant devoted father to a man who had zero legal rights, no custody, and was forced to drive three hours round trip just to get a single hour of supervised visitation with his newborn. And over the next eight years, he faced 12 separate court appearances, over 75 pages of manufactured accusations from his ex's entire extended family, calling him aggressive, dangerous, a flight risk, all kinds of things, false police reports designed to frame him for abuse, manipulative videos filmed by his ex-mother-in-law, and unilateral relocations, gatekeeping, financial extortion, like almost the whole shebang, guys. Yet, despite facing a system where his lawyer told him, and you guys know my take on lawyers and what they all what they're saying all the time, which is not necessarily true, if you don't, if you didn't have the money and endless determination, you wouldn't have been a father to your to your son. Actually, that's a good thing. Sorry, I this there's another thing that his attorney says later that I don't agree with. But if you didn't have the money and endless determination, you wouldn't have been a father to your son. So Ideen fought this way from zero rights all the way to 50-50 joint custody and equal parenting time. And he didn't do it by screaming, making threats, or getting bitter. He won by deploying what he calls practiced calm, which I love that phrase, practiced calm, and we're going to talk about that. And that is treating every attack as a logistical problem, establishing forensic paper trails, mastering emotional regulation, and executing a long-term strategy built on game theory. So, Dads, if you're currently sitting in this fog of high conflict, this episode is going to be a blueprint from somebody who did it absolutely on his on his own. Idean, thanks so much for being here and welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Thank you very much for that introduction and for the opportunity to speak.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Now, I you know, I that's a long introduction. It was very detailed, but I know it only scratches the surface of the experience that that you've had over the the time that you've been in family court. So let's let's start back at at the beginning. And one week after your son was born, you came home from work to find your apartment cleared out, right? Furniture gone, kitchen empty, your newborn son gone. You found you stay you say this in and it's and it's a it's a graphic that stuck with me. You say you found one dirty plastic spoon in a cupboard in a cupboard, which you ate with, which you actually use and you ate with for weeks. So take us back to that moment and kind of what goes through what went through your mind, your nervous system, when you realized your son had been taken and you had no legal standing to do anything about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yeah, I'm glad you're starting there. Because after I answer this, I I think the uh the the questions after that should be uh easier. It is the toughest

The Day His Newborn Disappeared

SPEAKER_00 6:18

part by far. I mean, it's it's hard for me to even think about that period, to be honest, because all of it is, of course, present in my memories and and in my uh you know, somewhere in my mind, but it's slowly but surely getting a lesser and lesser role. Uh it was tough, I think. Look at whatever I did in my life, I always had this feeling that I can that I can manage, that I can get it to where it needs to go. And I whether it was sports, relationships of any kind or or work, I always did. But at that point, the more I tried to think how to approach it, the more closed doors I encountered. Even when I when I started searching and Googling, or even talking to people, even talking to friends and families, I started realizing there just seems absolutely nothing I can do. It's as simple as that. It's an action that my son's mother took that I could do absolutely nothing about. And that that hit me quite hard because I was sitting there for the first time in my life, maybe even, where I was faced with with a certain outcome that I just literally, you know, forget confidence, intelligence, preparation, or whatever, I just had no answer to. And and what a and what a thing to be involved with. And I mean, I I I at that point I needed nothing else to just see my son. That's it. Just see it, see him be in his vicinity. But I could do absolutely nothing. And that that hit quite hard. I mean, you know, now nowadays I'm a little bit better when you know, when completely out of control about something to kind of leave it or let it go. But even now, if I was faced with a situation like that, when you are have no no agency or authority to see a loved one, it's um it was devastating, to be honest. Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

So which would it be safe to describe you? You're just on unprepared for a situation, because what you describe in in your book is that you've did you did everything possible, everything you could up through the pregnancy, you are you were you're a good fiance, you are making plans, you're planning for the future, you were preparing, doing everything and anything. And then having this happen and being thrust into a situation. And this is kind of the thing that that all the dads that come to the community, that's just you're you're unprepared because you've never gone through this experience before, and and and you don't know what to expect. And like laws there and laws here, and you know, and and and not to mention we're gonna get into kind of the mindset around uh fatherhood, etc., and uh coming up here, but you just don't know, you're just unprepared.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, I think that you hit the nail on the on the head. I think the key word there is preparation, but not even in the sense of like uh preparing by doing something or by reading about something. Preparation, I think, starts with just imagining that something is possible, right? Just having the thoughts that something might happen. That already in itself would be preparation. Well, that's how unprepared I was, because that something you know that she would, for example, just take him and leave and you know, give me some kind of a note that you can leave us alone now, I'll let you know. And then no, I mean, I never even thought that could happen. So that's like the ultimate unpreparedness. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Well, and then then you also talk about your first attorney meeting, which anybody that's listening that's already in this has had that first attorney meeting, and he and and your lawyer and lawyer told you. I think you the quote from the book is you're the most naive man in the world, right? And and this is where and this is the part that that that bothers me that I don't agree agree with. He said, You're the most naive man in the world for thinking fatherhood was automatically protected, and that getting 35% time would take four years in a best case scenario.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, uh the the lawyer was a she, by the way. She, okay. Not that it matters, but uh yeah, I mean, indeed I was. I mean it's not the first time I've uh been naive about things. I have this knack about me to be overly positive and and expect the best in people. When it works, it works beautifully, but when it doesn't, it's it can uh as it has in this case uh turned out pretty bad. And I don't know, I was just basically let me put it this way. I was I thought we were living in at that point in the 2016. I thought we were, you know, in a developed Western country ruled by law, and and even though the principle of equal parenting is is carried in Dutch law and it carried even in in Dutch culture, and I think an even broader Western culture, for me, I mean I never realized, again, talking about that preparation, I never realized that that might not be the case in a broader social or cultural context. I mean, even if you ask people you know about equal parenting, everybody

Naivety About Rights And Culture

SPEAKER_00 11:40

would agree that the parents are equal, etc. But in practical, concrete sense, I remember people asking me when I would describe my situation, they would ask me about my son's mother. They would literally say, but it's yeah, that's terrible, that's terrible, but is she a good mother?

unknown 11:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

That question stuck with me. You know, that's that's how ingrained uh this cultural aspect is that even when you talk to intelligent people who've never been through this and who carry this same notion that parenthood is should be equal, can just dismiss all these things, you know, the the this these things where one parent is completely like played out of the picture, if that's the correct English term. And just go, like, yeah, but is she a good mother? I'm um and I used to like stare at them blankly, thinking, like, what exactly do you mean? I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

So well, so the the challenge, the thing I want the dads to to know and understand is you know, you're put in a position where seeing your newborn son was treated as a a privilege, that's what you're describing to me, granted by her and her family rather than a right owned by a father. And even though you up until up until that point you had done everything, there was nothing that would, you know, no proof, nothing that that says that you're anything other than a good person and a capable and willing dad. And then you know, they did stuff like demand that you apologize for speaking your native language, restricted you to 15-minute walks, monitored your every move. So, you know, how do you handle the I mean, it's in some respects uh humiliating and the in and and having the the dignity that us dads have, especially dads that are that are there and showing up and excited and loving. You describe beautifully in your book of how you cried the the first time that you you held your held your son, and all the dads that show up in our community feel this the same way. How did you hand like how did you handle that when that started to happen?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Well, to be honest, I mean well, looking back on it, sometimes I don't understand it myself, but I as I wrote in the book, I think the best

Humiliation And Holding On As Dad

SPEAKER_00 13:56

explanation for that is was given by a friend of mine. I I played tennis at a reasonably high level, and this friend is also a tennis player. And I remember that at a certain point a couple of us were sitting at the table, and I was describing some some details about my situation, and one friend asked, like, he was like completely stunned. He asked me, like, how are you even staying sane? And this other fence started laughing and said, like the same, and he said this the same way he plays tennis. He just when you think you got him, he pisses in another back end. And and and it how how however silly or funny that may sound, it really is that. I mean, through my life somehow, you know, maybe from my experiences uh when I was a kid or when I came to the Netherlands as a refugee, or maybe literally just from tennis, really, to never give up. There is no giving up. I mean, there is you go and you keep fighting for what you think is right until uh until the end. And the end is when you I don't know. I would have had to have gone crazy to actually stop. Uh but so there was I've I absolutely felt weak and I felt insecure, and I I think the worst of it all was just the doubt. I think I doubted so much, I doubted whether I was up to it. I mean, looking back on it, I realized that part of it is not even the situation, but just being a new new father. And the I mean, he was my first son, and I only have him. So just I guess being a new father, you know, it's brings by itself some doubt. You know, can I handle this? Right. Is she probably even this cultural aspect that we mentioned a couple of minutes ago? I mean, even I was suffering from it, you know, this and that that part of that doubt was that. I mean, is she more better fit to be a parent than I am? I mean, all these things, but even through that doubt, I thought to myself, look, there are certain th principles that are important here, and and a kid doesn't need perfect parents. So even through that doubt, I said, like, even if I can't be perfect, a kid doesn't need perfect parents, he just needs parents. And that and that's plural. It's not singular, it's plural. He needs both parents. There are there are things that uh that a mother cannot uh teach a kid like a father could, and and vice versa. There are things a father cannot teach kids like a mother would. And that's why they need both. And that kind of you know, just this conviction about the the principle kept me going. But there was a lot of insecurity and doubt, and and looking back on it, I mean, I remember when when I was forced to look at this video where her mother was filming him and and and my ex on the floor playing, he could barely even talk. And she's asking him, Where did Daddy hit you? Where did daddy hit you? Just looking at that, I mean, when I think about it now, I realize that that would never fly, right? I mean, it's it's it was she was you know talking to a to a you know to a baby pretty much who can't even talk, and she was kind of leading him into the answers. So now if I where I am now, I would immediately think like, yeah, any judge would dismiss this, any professional would just see through this. But at that point, at that point, it hit me so hard, I thought that was it. I when I saw that video, I thought, like, that this is it, they're gonna take my kid away from me. I was I was um literally panicking. I mean, I cannot even describe how I felt, uh, how destroyed and and and completely in panic. I felt.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Which is really why it's important to, when you're going through this process, surround yourself with other dads that have gone through and experienced this. Because uh, and that's why we've created the divorce advocate community, that's why we have our group calls, that's why guys network all across the the country here, and actually even across the the world, we have guys that that's that do connect across the the world. And because you're you know, I remember myself thinking, am I crazy for wanting to you know have you know have a you know a specific idea around what is right for my daughters, and you're just not getting that positive reinforcement and feedback. And even if you have good friends that that don't know, it's like they don't understand, they don't know what this high conflict is because it's such a small minority of people that go through it and and and deal with it. And I love your point about you need two parents. Two parents bring two different things to child rearing, you know, child rearing and and and bringing kids up that the other ones don't. And and and I learned this more probably after the fact, trying to be dad and mom all the time. And it's almost virtually impossible. You need both parents. And I I say that to say, Ideen, is that I think it's a red flag, and I think this is a fair red flag for the dads listening, that if your your soon-to-be ex is not encouraging that or is finding fabricated, you know, outside of any if there's physical abuse, like you know, any kind of abuse going on, obviously that's that's wrong, that shouldn't happen. But outside of anything like that, if she's finding reasons or trying to undermine your relationship, that is a huge red flag, dad, and you've got to pay attention to that. And so I guess I want to I want to ask you, Idean, about what was the shift that then finally made you go from trying to convince her, right? You know, because and and realizing that begging for permission was just a dead end. You weren't gonna change her mind to preparing to win in court.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Well, uh, I think this making shift was more emotional than rational. And it was, I think, when so before court, we went into this kind of like a yeah, I'm not sure if in in the US where you are there is such a role, but in in Holland there is a role which is kind of like a child advocate. And you could go into a program with this person, and her role is basically to represent the child. When the child is very young, they cannot express their

The Moment He Stopped Begging

SPEAKER_00 20:21

voice, so this person expresses. So we went into this trajectory with her, and and I was quite happy with that. I agreed pretty much with everything she said. She basically stated, you know, both parents are needed, and we need to work towards that situation. Now, she also understood that the mother had difficulty in letting go of that control and that need to kind of, you know, overly protect and and and keep our son constantly with her. And I understood that. I said, okay, if these are, I mean, I I don't agree, I didn't agree with it even back then. I thought like we were all grown-ups, you should be able to kind of you know let it go. But, you know, respect, let's build up towards. And at a certain point, like you mentioned in your introduction, we went, we started with alone time. So I was able to visit him at her house a couple of times a week for a few hours, which was not easy. But I was happy to do that just to be able to see him. And then we started introducing alone time. First 15 minutes, then 30 minutes, and 45 minutes was a step too far for her. Now I'm getting to the point to answer you answering your question soon. It's a little bit of a long lead up. Um but at a certain point, the child advocate said something like, Look, if you guys, and it was always in the plural, it was never like, hey, the mother is not cooperating. Yeah, but it was always in the if and she said, like, if you guys are not gonna follow my advice, I have to stop this program and and write a report and forward you to court. Yeah, because she was not willing to give me 45 minutes. I had no idea back then why. Best I could make of is maybe she got scared that you know, after this 45 minutes, that would be it. Or actually, as I describe in my book, I think she was back then hoping for some reconciliation, and at that point she found out that wasn't going to happen. That aside. So, anyways, getting to the point to answer your question. After that happened, we broke off with the child advocate and we were basically going to court. Now we're waiting for that final report. I was still going there to her place to visit my son. So at the first visit after that program with the child advocate was uh was stopped. I said to her, Look, I was really I hope we can at least keep the 30 minutes of alone time so I can take him outside on my own. And to that, she said, Yes, you can be alone with him. In the bathroom while you give him a bath and change his diaper. And and somehow, I mean, it's not the first insult or humiliation, humiliation I felt. I mean, it's not like it's a big deal that she said that. But that in answering your question, what was the turning point? That was the turning point for me. And it wasn't a rational one, like I said, it was an emotional one. Somehow that hit me. And it almost like hit me in a way that it kind of woke me up.

unknown 23:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

It woke me up what's going on here.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

I mean, it's it's you know that's what I want. That's what I wanted to get at is I think we all uh we uh you know I call the this amic this amical fuss the amicable facade that that we that we want to that that we want to have that this is gonna work, particularly because like I said at the beginning, usually typically we were the the yes men, we're trying to make things better, we're trying to solve naturally as men, we're trying to solve the problems all the time, et cetera. But there's usually a time where it strikes us that, oh, this isn't, you know, this isn't gonna happen. And and in what I want in what I wanted to hear your story, because I had the same same thing, but I want the dads to know that if she is not encouraging a relationship you from with you from the start, that is a red flag. Don't wait to have like this restricted time, don't wait to to have to have that realization happen. Uh, the next thing I want to talk about is the you know the false allegations that they start making. Don't wait till that silver bullet comes where they're where they're making the false allegation, getting a restraining order, you know, tick kicking you out of your house, doing all of that stuff because because if they have not been encouraging it from the start, there's a high probability that they are going to go completely down this route, dad. So even the dads that are listening are like, well, we're not to that yet. We're still, you know, we're still amicable. Just be aware of if she is not encouraging the relationship together, you need to be paying attention and preparing, like we said, because if you're unprepared, then you're gonna be hit with some of what let's talk about next. Because we I talk about in the show here the silver bullets and how I high conflict access will weaponize the false allegations. And what they're doing is they're they're hijacking the

False Allegations As Legal Weapons

SPEAKER_02 25:11

court's risk mitigate the risk management engine, right? So their courts work on efficiency and and and risk management. And so what happened to you before your first court appearance, her legal team submitted a 75-page statement from her family labeling you as aggressive and dangerous, a narcissist, claiming you were gonna run off to to Bosnia with your with your son. So how did you how do you how did you react to to that experience when that first happened?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Look, that that was I think perhaps after that moment that we started with when when I you know when I came home and she wasn't there, I think that was the the biggest shock right after that, because uh, you know, reading reading basically somebody else's version of me in a situation like this where I was up until that point basically trying, you know, to be as positive as I could and understanding as I could. Well, actually, before describing how I how it made me fell feel, let me jump into this red flag that you keep mentioning. I think I think for me, looking back onto our relationship, etc., the biggest red flag that I should have like paid attention to is and with her that was rather new. I never had that with other people, regardless whether any kind of relationship, whether it's romantic or any kind of relationship. But when two people fight, at a certain point you kind of calm down and you you feel bad and you apologize, right? Now, as soon as one person apologizes, the natural reaction in the other person tends to be they apologize as well, and they say what they did wrong, or they could have done better, or they could have, you know, handled differently. I never had that experience with her. So then the way our reconciliations usually go, would go is that I would apologize and state what I could have done better, and that would be it. I mean, there usually wouldn't be any reciprocity from the other side, what she could have done better, etc. And I think that has, you know, that has kind of almost like put a stamp on on the whole co-parenting relationship as well. I mean, even to this day when things are running as, well, I wouldn't say smooth, but as stable as possible, and quite stable as they are, that is still that stamp that kind of defines everything. If something goes wrong, it is never due to her actions or any of her responsibilities. It's either left in the air or it's my responsibility. And I think that for any listener would be kind of a warning sign. If you have fights that go towards that kind of like only one party accepting responsibility, you can kind of expect that to be the same in the future as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

That goes to that high-functioning yes man. If we're all these the always the ones, and and and there and and it could be described as codependency. If we're always the ones that are that are people pleasing, trying to make things right, and there's no reciprocation around that, if there's no, you know, there's no collaboration, there's no coming to the middle. Like you said, most people, most healthy, mentally, emotionally healthy people, when even if it takes one person or the other, apologizing, you want to come to the middle and you want to find common ground and you want to to solve problems and make things better. And yeah, I think that's a great point. If you're in a relationship where you're the one that's capitulating all of the time, usually means that that's gonna be that's gonna be the way that's it's expected during the divorce process. And the moment that you start to say the word no with a period and it's a full sentence, then that's when the uh amicable facade will go completely down and the mask will come off, and you're going to see really what happens. So I think that's uh that's that's that's a great point. Um, the only problem is is I didn't like I don't know about you, but like I was completely oblivious to you know to to to that, you know, like like hindsight, like you're saying, well, looking back now, I think that's one of the ones. That's why I say the red flag of her not encouraging the relationship is really a good one because it's outside of ourselves, right? It's outside, it's and it's focused on our kids. So and we're focused on our kids as dads in this process. So if we're not tuned into our relational dynamic with our soon-to-be-ex, at least you can be to you can be cognizant of something that's external from you that is your kids, and and that your kids are not being encouraged to have a relationship with you. And so that's a that's a that's an easy one for you to go, oh, okay, yeah, that's a really like obvious thing that's going on here. You know, I need to pay attention to this. I need to listen to what Idean and Jude are saying. Like, this is a big deal. Pay attention because it's about to get much worse if she's not if she's not doing that. So so let's talk about then also. Did you have something else you wanted to add about that?

SPEAKER_00 30:15

No, no, no. Maybe just to answer your question about the the what about those 75 pages. I mean, you know, somebody writing basically about your character that is, you know, kind of almost like criminalizing your character. And I mean, again, looking back, of course, that would never be taken serious by a judge, you know, because it's so unfounded and only written by family members. But at that point, I mean, it hit so hard. Right. I was uh But even then, I was I wasn't scrambling emotionally, but I was still kind of you know, like in a tennis match, you know, you take all your anger and your sadness and you you convert it into focus, into you know what you need to do. What I needed to do is talk to my lawyer about it. And and I think my lawyer in you know, I had a I mean what we what what parents in what I was going through, and what I would recommend all fathers that are going through something similar, get support, get help. And that doesn't mean just emotional support, that means also practical support, people who can explain to you what's gonna happen, what needs to be done. And I had that in my lawyer. I had a fantastic relationship with her, and we were able to kind of like spar almost to the point of fighting. She never let up and she never gave up on me. And and I always could go to her, and even when she recommended, for example, a parenting coach, or where she she was the one recommending the recommended uh child advocate. I mean, she always kind of explained things to the point that made uh that brought me to conclusions about what I need to do. And even she said at a certain point that I was preparing half of her legal documentation because by the fourth or fifth court case, I was so into it that I was kind of I knew what was happening, and that helped in itself because not she didn't have time all the time always for just my case. So me kind of checking up on her, oh you forgot about this, oh, there's also this angle. So we almost became kind of like a team, you know. So it was no longer my ex versus me, it was almost like my ex versus a teen of my lawyers, right? Even though she had changed lawyers, and it was never a good relationship, whereas my lawyer and I, we felt like a proper team, and that that helped a lot, I think. And and I'm I'm not suggesting that everybody should have a lawyer and in that sense, but get that from somebody. Get into a team with somebody who can help you.

Building A Team And Paper Trail

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Like, if nothing, just give your opinions with a clear mind and the knowledge of all the legal aspects, et cetera.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah, I love that. One of the ways that I describe to the dads in the community is that you're the coach of this legal team. So you really got to be on top of it. You got to be putting in the time and the effort to understand what the legal process is. Part of coaching when we do that individually is teaching them how to do that, how to communicate with their attorneys, how to, you know, that team member, that attorney is going to be in a very important position player on your team. So so they are important, but you are still the one that's driving the strategy, creating the playbook, doing all that with their with their feedbook because they're on the field, they're in the court system, they know that, they they help you with that. But but I love that. And I want to get into some of what you describe in the book as your strategy and how to do that. But first, I want to talk about one of the more terrifying moments I found in the in the book, which is when her attorney submitted this three-minute video uh filmed by her mom. And and I want to and I want to I want to bring this up because it shows the extent to which some individuals will go to create this false narrative in court because they are mentally and emotionally screwed up, right? So this is going to next level, right? And and and what she did is she was she she she made a a video with your two-year-old son asking him, where did daddy hit you? Tell mommy where daddy hurt you, until your poor son pointed to his to his eye, like he was literally being being coached. Now, you're able to fight this, you're able to go through the process with this, but still it is or through the process of you know taking this to somebody, to a therapist, and showing and they were able to clearly determine that that he was being coached. But I mean, this is sick. This is really sick. And the things that sick people will do if they're sick in the head are egregious. And so I just want dads to know that that's out there, especially the ones that are again in this amical, amicable facade. It's better to be prepared and and not have to use everything that you've got than to not you know have all of your tools and then and then be needing them in this process. So just comment. I mean, just comment on like the level, the level of of of just it's really sick. I'm sorry, I can't say it any other any other way. The sickness that somebody would go to or people would go to to try to impact a child and take away your your parental authority.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Look, I mean, I have I have two things I have to say about that. I mean, one is even back then, I mean, I was stunned. Like I said earlier, I was at that point when I saw that, I literally was afraid they're gonna take my son away from me. Right. But even then, soon after, I was able to kind of you know twist it into something where I find the understanding for the situation. And the way I argued it to myself, wait a minute, it can't be this bad. I mean, maybe, maybe a toy had hit him while he was with me. And because he's he wasn't even talking back then, maybe he said something about that, and she interpreted it differently, and then it kind of like snowballed into something else. Although I couldn't even remember that. A toy hidden him, right? So that's that's that doubt that I was mentioning, right? So so this this doubt and then I thought to myself, but wait a minute, let's say it was reversed, right? And let's say that, you know, even if he had a blue eye, which is wasn't the case, I would have called and asked, you know, what's going on here? What happened? And that never happened. So to me, it's I mean, I can imagine people getting an idea about something or being afraid or being emotional. That that's all understandable. What I find harder to accept is that people then kind of just let their emotions take over, let their imaginations take over, without actually just kind of checking, right? Checking, you know, what happened here? What was did something happen? She could have done that, but so that that's one thing I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

The other thing is their mental illness take over is what it is. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

I'm I'm I'm reluctant to call it mental illness. I mean, I'm uh I I definitely the things that have happened seemed rather abnormal to me. Sorry. Seemed rather abnormal to me, but you know, emotions can take people and and I was also told by by a friend who was a lawyer, not that kind of a lawyer, a lawyer in corporate mergers and in in finances. He told me something that stuck with me. He said, like, look, I think people can do crazy things when they're advised, you know, in a particular way. So maybe she she just was emotional and she kept getting advice from a particular side that that kind of took her away. If your loved ones and people who are close to you are advising you about something and kind of feeding your your emotions towards one side, people can do a lot of things. But maybe I'm just being too positive as usual.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

That's that's that's that's actually probably the the root of the mental illness that has been carried on from family member to family member. But you are yes, you do have a doubt you you you are giving a lot of benefit of the doubt, which I appreciate, which is really really.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

That's that's one of the parts that I also want to give to your listeners is you know, if you I mean the one thing that I've learned in this whole process is that that just blame and put and it doesn't help. Even when it's completely justified, for sure. Blaming somebody does not help and putting responsibility on other people does not help. People have their reasons for what for doing what they do, and I choose to focus on uh on what I can do and taking my responsibilities and fighting for my son, and I've achieved that, and I'm you know, I'm as a person myself, regardless of my son, I'm as a person richer for it. And let alone him having a an a dad as as uh as fully as as possible in this situation. So yeah, I just want to give that. I guess that we are responsible for our actions, and it's perhaps best to just focus on that, focus on what we can we can do rather than than than point fingers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yeah, yeah, agreed 100 100%. I want to so with the the rest of the time we've got, I want to talk about now, you know, with that mindset, because that's a beautiful mindset, right? Then how you went about systematically overcoming these false allegations and then getting to the point where you're at now, where you've got a great relationship with him. You've got 50-50 parenting time, joint decision making. So you have a background business analysis and game theory. And so you tried years doing the nice thing with her and trying to send birthday messages, offering compromises. You're continually met with obstruction, and you realize that co-parenting was an illusion. So you described that you pivoted to a game theory strategy called tit for tat. And so explain to us how tit for tat works in a high conflict divorce.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah, so let me first address how how that came about. It wasn't some kind of awakening or decision. It grew out of kind of, you know, just as out of testing different things, right? Not consciously testing different things, but in in this vision that I had where look, the best I can get out of this and the best for my son also, according to my conviction, is co-parenting. If I want to achieve that, how do I do that? So I always was busy with that question. So I tried various things. I tried things where I kind of, I don't know, sometimes I would let her have her way, right? Only to experience afterwards that that didn't get reciprocated. Then I would do it differently, where I would just

Game Theory Tit For Tat Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 41:49

kind of like do my own thing without consulting with her, that would be severely punished and ruin the relationship. Then I started to then I tried just asking and consulting. That didn't work because as soon as I put her on the spot and asked for her opinion, immediately somehow it turned into a fight. Right? So all these ways that I unconsciously tested, at a certain point, something started to work. And I realized that what started to work and is uh almost like a kind tit for tat. And a tit for tat is simply like you know, getting back at people when they deserve it and and being nice to them when they uh when they are nice. But the two things that I can uh that I have to add about this classic tit for tat strategy one is that it's uh well not a nice form of tit for tat, but one without with real care in the language, right? So it's not like hey, if you if you do this, I'll I'll get back at you, right? So that's gonna immediately be perceived as a threat. So you you can't do that. But it's more like uh right, uh also not in the case, so let's say I ask for a favor, hey, my cousin has a birthday, uh our son is with you. Next week, can I take him to that birthday? The answer is usually no. I don't go and say next time when she asks that, I don't go and say, like uh, yeah, remember when you said no, so now I'm saying no, because that too is then gonna be a conflict situation, right? Right. So the way you imply you you implemented it for that is in the least confrontational way possible, right? So that that that's the first thing. And the second thing is uh and what I found the hardest in the strategy is turning back on the cooperation because after not once, twice, or three times, or even multiple times when she hasn't cooperated, uh when she finally does, uh I always had this feeling, yeah, but uh remember the four times that you didn't, right? So so you don't deserve for me to cooperate this time, but that's that's also not tit for tat. Tit for tat needs to almost be like an emotional thing, like you're almost like dealing with a I don't know, like a strategic business partner. When they show cooperative behavior, you immediately switch back to cooperating. And and just treating it like that has helped me in terms of this uh because uh there is there's always resentment, right, for things that have happened. I carried and still carry the resentment towards her for those things, and it's that resentment that prevents cooperation, pretty much. And yeah, and that's and and dealing it in such a way where I literally just at a certain point outlined the strategy and said, like, I'm gonna behave like this, it becomes almost like a manual that I follow that allows me not to get emotionally attached. And through that process, this resentment has taken uh a back seat further and further away. Whether I'll ever be free of this resentment that I still carry, who knows? But I don't even care that much because it's it's you know it's quite far back nowadays. It's so far back to resentment towards her that I could even maybe be cordial and social and and and and truly in a cooperative situation. But the point to that now is that I don't think that that's the best way to deal with her, you know, because one of the testing strategies was to just cooperate on everything. Ask questions and that has not worked. What does seem to work is that I say, like, hey, this is my opinion. If you can let me know by then and then what your opinion is. Now, usually that doesn't happen. Back, one of the strategies that didn't work is that I would then remind her, Hey, we're waiting on this. That never worked. It just creates uh more fighting. So now I rephrase my questions in this is what I want to do. I'd like to hear your opinion by then and then. And then I add, if I don't get, this is what I'm gonna do then and then. Now I don't know if she forgets or if she actually likes that. I don't know, and I don't care. But oftentimes, no answer comes back, and then I just do what I communicate that I would do.

unknown 46:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

And often that's really gross.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

I really love this part of your of your book, and and I highly encourage the listeners, if you even just to buy it for this part of it, because this I I I I like the name, it's kind of kind of funny and kind of catchy. And and usually we think of tit for tat in a in a negative manner, but I I took some notes about this because I wanted to be real clear of what you just described, but for also the listeners to understand, and like the mechanics that you're describing and what you what you say in the book is start with fairness and generosity, right? If the other side cooperates, keep cooperating. And that's best case scenario, right? Right there. If they obstruct or cross a boundary, pause and enforce the boundary immediately, which is really, really important, especially for guys like us who probably didn't have a lot of boundaries in in the relationship, right? And then the moment they return to cooperation, forgive instantly. So then then that then that's it. You set your bound, you set your boundary, you adhere to your boundary, they accept that and are respectable, uh respect that, and then and and then you guys can go forward and it's all good. The other part that that you describe is stop overgiving. Again, another challenge with with with with us, guys, realizing that continuous, unreciprocated goodwill doesn't build trust. And I love that part right there. I think is is a huge, huge. If you guys don't get any other message from today, realizing that continuous, unreciprocated goodwill doesn't build trust. You're not actually building trust in her, you're not building the trust in a relationship, in a co-parenting relationship, et cetera. That's just that's just not happening. And that's that's an important, important thing that I think we conflate, especially because of how we're we're designed and how we show up, right? It just all it all it actually does uh as you described is it reinforces her dominance and invites further exploitation. So I think that is an amazing. And then the last part of this whole you know, tit for tat is the the parallel parenting mindset, shifting from the illusion that it's gonna be you know a co-parenting where you're cooperating and you have you're gonna actually you just described like like shared shared decision making, right? To just strict operational boundaries. My house, my rules, your house, your rules, right? Like you can you can use that tit for tat with all that, and I mean that's terrific.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And I think that it's a great summary, and the only thing I can add is that in this strategy, and this is uh a true, so the reason I called it tit for tat is not because this generic cultural description of how what we use as tit for tat, but but purely in game theory, there is uh there is a strategy called tit for tat. Now tit for tat tit for tat works best as tests have shown, if because tit for tat can go wrong. If one person uh stops cooperating and the other one also doesn't, you basically get into this vicious cycle. So tit for tat, let's call it tit for tat plus in that sense in a game theoretical approach suggests also to every now and then throw in some giving just to break that cycle. But indeed, as you say, we have to be really careful of just giving and expecting the other party to, I don't know, somehow become more generous or to reciprocate or to become a better person or to become a more giving person, because that's that's the kind of giving out of some kind of an emotional need or an emotional hope that it will change things, that it will change the interaction, or perhaps even the relationship, whatever that relationship may be. And I think that's a recipe for disaster, that kind of giving. And I think that's what you just described so well. What I can add to that is that occasionally do still give that little extra, but that but view that not as in terms of like this is me throwing my emotional gut out there hoping somebody will kind of you know feed off of it and we go into the into heaven together. No, it's purely operational, strategic. You're giving every now and then extra to see to break that dit vicious tit for tat cycle into uh uh a progressive and positive the tit for tat cycle. Yeah, I like that. That's what I that's what I true do now, and uh most of the time it doesn't work to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

But uh every now exactly it reminds me, hey, stop giving.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

That's good. No, we've got a we got a guy in our community, and I like I always tease him because he's always the one that's on the calls, and he's just he hears one of us talking, he'll just be shaking his head, and I'm like, okay, like every time I I do that, I'm like, he's on my shoulder going, nope, you know, like the little angel and the devil. And I'm like, he's like, nope, nope, that's not that's just not gonna be it. But but you know, your point, your your point is that, hey, like it's you're taking the uh you're taking the emotion out of it like you described, and you're not doing it to get something back, you're not doing it, and that's what that's the co that's the codependent in us, which is we're doing something to get love or get something in return. And you're just doing this to test the system, and that's a complete different mindset. And usually you're gonna get the same answer like you described, and then and then your answer's gonna it's easier to handle it. It's easier to handle it exactly, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And then no expectations, right? Exactly, exactly. And then and then you just know in the future when the request comes in, I just think we should stick to the parenting plan. You know, let's just leave it at that. Like you don't have to get into it. Like, you just there's no emotions left with it. You just it's just just what it is, which is what I want to get to now as as we wrapped up, because in the the final some of the final chapters of your book, you you talk about your internal transformation and how you stopped evaluating everything through a moral lens of what's fair and what's justice, and then you move to what you know what I did what I mentioned in the beginning, which is your your practiced calm, right? I love I love that that phrase, where you treat every you know, hostile tax or mist exchange or a court motion as a cold logistical problem, like we were just talking about, rather than an emotional battle. And so how does a dad build that mental muscle, especially right now where they're in the in the thick of it when his world's on fire?

SPEAKER_00 53:14

I think one thing is I never respond immediately anymore. So I'm talking just practical tips here. I think that's what you're asking for. I think Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

No, how do you yeah, how do you get to that practice calm because you're exactly right. The name is perfect because you have to practice it in order to get to it.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Yeah, it's it's following simple rules. So, like for example, I no longer have notifications, receiving messages from her. That already puts a little bit of the of the stress and the urgency because usually when we get an email, get a response, and if it's something important, you know, your you know I guess your your the dad in you wakes up and wants to kind of you know solve it immediately, right? Yeah, so no notifications anymore. If I when I get see the message, I see it and I have a rule with myself, no immediate answers, you know. I chew on it, and then I carefully construct the answer on how to respond

Practiced Calm Under Fire

SPEAKER_00 54:13

from this operational strategic point of view. It's almost like when you're asking for a raise, right? When you're asking for a raise, your boss or whatever, you're gonna be real careful how you not only when you send the email, but also how you approach it, etc. What your plan B is, whether you communicate if you have a plan B. So, for example, to to build on your uh on your example when a request comes in, I even go to the point where I think about okay, I'm gonna accept this request. Do I ask for something in return immediately or afterwards? I've tested that as well. Immediately asking for something in return doesn't work, so it's best to just uh accept. But then at a good point, you know, not too late, like you still want this request to be in her memory, but a couple of days later, when you want something, you ask for it immediately. But and don't also not make sure make sure to when you communicate, not say, like, hey, you wanted this, so now I want this, right? You kind of want it to be a very subtle connection. You you you almost want to phrase it as if there's no connection between those two requests, her and now yours, or mine in this case, but sending it at a certain point and in a certain way that they do see that there isn't, right? So it goes, it's very much about communication. So it's like de-stressing the urgency of the communication, and when communicating, being very tactical about it. That's yeah, it seems to have worked. And it's to be honest, I'm saying now things that I'm it's almost like it's a bit sad, right? Because I I think conversations with people should be spontaneous, should be open and honest. But my experience has been different. But my experience has been different. This has to be handled like a job. That has been my experience, and that's how I'm handling it now. And the funny thing is that the better I get at this, the more the response is as if something is going so well, so all of a sudden I see positive messages, I see emojis, and it's it's so nice and positive from her that I sometimes almost feel like I should get into that way of committing it and again. Then I remind myself, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Is it happening because I'm sticking to this uh tactical operational?

SPEAKER_02 56:36

Exactly. Which I I think is a great way to wrap up because so you know you what you just described is um is is is amazing, right? You've completely transformed your mindset, and in turn, you've you've transformed what what has happened, like through 12 court cases, 75 pages of false allegations, you know, zero legal rights in a in a in a in a country that was literally ready to erase you as a father. You walked out now with 50-50 parenting time, joint decision, decision making, and a thriving relationship with your son. But you didn't do it by winging it. You and you didn't do it just through sheer willpower. You did it by executing a strategy. Part of that strategy is mastering your nervous system. A part of that was building a forensic record that the that the system couldn't ignore to mitigate those false allegations. So so it's incredibly, incredible, incredibly important for the dads that are listening that you need to do that. So when you're in the thick of it, like you described, is you need the team. You need to, you know, you need to be with other dads, you need to put your team together, you need people to help you support you in this. And you cannot just let these temporary compromises like it would have been easy for you to just be, you know, trying to accept a little bit, the half hour, the half hour, the half hour, right? Which is which is crazy. But instead you decided to fight. So, you know, I just want to encourage the dads to look for those resources, get out. That's why we've created the community here at the divorce advocate. You know, grab those resources wherever you can grab them, where you can find them. Hopefully, like I mean, you were blessed to find a great attorney because not all attorneys are created equal. I mean, that's a phenomenal thing. We have a system through which we take dads here at the in the community and on how to find a good attorney. But um, get the resources, go to the website of divorced advocate.com, and then you know, pick up the book because it's just it's just awesome. The book's called Fighting to Be Father, a memoir of love, justice, and and legacy. And like I said, if you just pick it up for the for the tit for tat strategy, I think that's ter to to terrific. But read all of it because especially in the beginning when you're talking about your descriptions of what you were going through as as your son was they were trying to take him away, it was was was was really was really gripping. And and then you know the outcome and listening to you today and how you just you know I I can I can feel your peace and where you're at now compared to what I read in the in in the beginning of the book. And so it's just a a credit uh to you. And then where where can the dads listening pick up the the book? Is it on Amazon or bookstores? Where how can they get a hold of it?

SPEAKER_00 59:37

It it's on Amazon. Uh I only have it on Amazon. I don't really have a whole uh uh business uh about it. It's more like a personal thing that I felt I needed to write. Yeah, I and the reason is I don't know. Well actually the reason is mostly because I what

Fight To Be Father Closing Message

SPEAKER_00 59:54

I felt what I had gone through was so almost alien-like. And the lessons that I've learned that I thought like this, I literally thought like this must be shared. And then now I just feel like you know, I need maybe a little bit to make it a little bit of an effort that actually somebody reads it. When I when I started writing it, I realized it's also you know, mostly for my son. I mean, I don't want him reading it until he's completely mature and emotionally stable, of course. Uh but I tried also for him to be very fair in what I described, very factual and very fair. But mostly I want to give the message. Look, if if I can just close with giving a message to your listeners, that would be the title of my book, just fight fight for your kids. Fight not only for your kids, but fight to be father. Because look, I mean, before I became a father, I I knew of cases, you know, whether it's in friends or family circles of fathers who are not present for their kids. And I never could understand why that was. I always kind of thought like there must be something wrong with him. Now I know very differently how you know how things usually go. But I just want to say, look, it's fight not only for your kids, but fight for yourself. Because I cannot imagine somebody being a better person when they have chosen the path to not be present in their children's lives. Now I don't want to discriminate, surely there are situations when that was the best choice as well. But if you can, if there's any means for you to fight for your for the presence in your children's lives, not only will they be much better for it, but you as a person will grow. I at least that has been my experience. I as a person have grown tremendously from being a father and from fighting to be present in my son's life. And by no means am I perfect, but uh like my son always says, what are you smiling about now? And I have to explain to him again, I'm literally just smiling because I'm enjoying the moment, and I just have like a reflective moment where I think to myself, like, my god, I'm I'm just glad and happy and thankful to just be in this moment that I can actually teach you this lesson, and then we can go through this together.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

Yeah. Beautifully said, beautifully said. The book again, dads, is Fighting to Be Father, a memoir of love, justice, and legacy. Ideen, thank you so much for for writing the book, sharing this with everybody coming on today and sharing all of your pearls of wisdoms. And and and dads, if you found some value in this today, please share it far and wide on social media. Give us a star rating, comment. That all helps us to spread the this this information far and wide all across the world. Thanks so much for listening this week, and God bless.