Staying Engaged When the Answer Is “Wait” with Dr. Miki Zilnicki

In this episode, Denise is joined by Dr. Miki Zilnicki for a thoughtful conversation about what parents can do when they’re told to “wait and see” — and how families can stay engaged, informed, and empowered during that waiting period.

Together, they explore why waiting is sometimes recommended, what it does and doesn’t mean, and how parents can advocate for their child’s visual development without feeling adversarial or overwhelmed. The discussion also touches on the importance of seeking additional opinions, understanding differences in professional perspectives, and recognizing when it’s appropriate to ask deeper questions.

Denise also introduces an emerging idea she’s developing — using music and movement as a supportive, complementary way to help families stay connected to their child’s visual development. While not a replacement for clinical care, this approach reflects Denise’s background in music education and her belief that gentle, rhythmic movement can help parents remain engaged and aware while they’re navigating next steps.

This episode is especially relevant for parents who feel stuck in uncertainty, unsure whether to wait, act, or seek additional guidance.

Topics Covered

• What doctors usually mean when they tell parents to “wait”
• Why children are sometimes considered “too young” for certain interventions
• How parents can stay actively involved during a waiting period
• The role of patient and parent advocacy in vision care
• When and how to seek additional professional opinions
• Navigating conflicting advice without losing confidence
• Why awareness and connection matter — even before therapy begins
• Introducing music and movement as a supportive, non-clinical tool for families

Who This Episode Is For

• Parents who have been told to “wait and see” and feel unsure what to do next
• Families navigating mixed messages in vision care
• Listeners interested in patient advocacy and informed decision-making
• Parents who want ways to stay connected to their child’s development during periods of uncertainty

Key Takeaway

Waiting doesn’t have to mean doing nothing. Staying informed, asking questions, and remaining connected to your child’s experience can make a meaningful difference — even before any formal intervention begins.

Dr. Zilnicki's website and Vision is more than 20/20 podcast: https://twinforksoptometry.com/vision-is-more-than-20-20-podcast/

Questions for Dr. Zilnicki? Here's her email: drzilnicki@twinforksoptometry.com

Join the Healing our Sight Facebook Group here: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100063570817348

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Transcript

Denise :  This is the Healing Our Sight podcast where we discuss vision issues and healing strategies from the patient perspective. The goal of this podcast is to create an awareness of the diverse types of vision issues people experience, to highlight the types of help available, and to open a dialogue between patients to show we're not alone in our vision struggles. As a patient who gained 3D vision at age 54 through vision therapy combined with strabismus surgery, I feel uniquely qualified to offer a hopeful, balanced perspective on the possibilities. Please use the link in the show notes to send me a message and thanks for joining me today.

Denise:  Welcome to the Healing Our Sight podcast. I'm your host, Denise Allen, and today my guest is Dr. Miki Lynn Zelnicki. She has a great podcast called Vision is more than 20/20, and I've been watching her progress and what she's been putting out there for since before I started. Honestly, I don't know if you know this, but I. when I decided to start my podcast, I googled to see who was doing anything.

Dr. Miki Z: Oh, I love that.

Denise: Right? And I found you. And I found “It could be your eyes.”

Dr. Miki Z: Oh, yes, yes.

Denise: Yeah, I think I found that one at the same time. And I said, okay, there are doctors that are talking about this, but there's not a patient perspective. And that's what I decided to bring to the table, so. Dr. Zilnicki graduated with honors from the SUNY College of Optometry in New York, receiving the VSP Excellence in Primary Care and Excellence in Vision Therapy Awards. She then continued her education by completing a residency in vision therapy and rehabilitation with Dr. Barry Tannen, OD. Oh, he's been on your podcast, right? Yeah, yeah. She has extensive experience in family eye care with a specialty and passion for pediatrics, vision training and neuro rehabilitation with traumatic brain injury patients. She is an active member of OVDRA,  Optometric Vision Development and Rehabilitation Association, which my listeners know used to be COVD and is the representative writer for vision therapy on the website newgradoptometry.com I haven't seen your writing on there yet. So, what have you written on there?

Dr. Miki Z: I was going to say they actually rebranded from New Grad to now it's Eyes On Eye Care.

Denise: What do they put in their publication then?

Dr. Miki Z: So, Eyes On Eye Care is all encompassing. It has everything from clinical management for every part of optometry. They also host continuing education events, all of the things. So, I write for them. I do also some clinical editing for them as well. So just making sure that the word is being spread about vision therapy as best as I can.

Denise: Awesome. So, you're kind of doctor-facing a lot, it feels like in what you're doing.

Dr. Miki Z: Yes, yes.

Denise: But the doctors need to know. This is one of my pet peeves, honestly, is that I can go to the optometrist. Well, for my whole life. Right. But one particular visit hit me the most, I guess, and that was when I took my daughter in who was mini-me. And the optometrist told me she was fine and that I was fine. Neither of us were fine.

Dr. Miki Z: Yeah. You know, it's interesting because it really depends on where you go to school and the opportunities being presented to you. Every optometrist knows about vision and vision development and vision therapy, but some schools are more heavily push it, you know, in the rotations that they offer or what is required. And you know, the nice thing about optometry is there are so many avenues for you to go down and things that interest you. So, I know there's been such a big push for medical optometry and less so of the less flashy vision therapy development, pediatrics, portions of optometry. But with that you don't have to be a jack of all trades, right. Because then you're a master of none. But the key to being a good optometrist, and I encourage any patients or parents listening to this, if you go to a doctor and you feel like there's more to the story than what they're saying, get a second opinion because eventually you'll find somebody that is hearing your concerns. Because me as the optometrist, right, like I am not a corneal specialist, but what I am really good at seeing is, okay, there's something wrong that doesn't feel good that I can't manage. I'm going to refer to my optometric colleague that knows more than I do or my ophthalmology colleague that knows more or specializes in cornea. So, it's really important that you find a doctor that you feel comfortable with that is listening to your concerns and pushing for that information. Every doctor is still learning, but my passion is getting the word out there for optometrists and for parents and patients, but really that anybody can observe a patient and gather the proper data to understand if there's an underlying visual dysfunction causing their performance academically, professionally or with sports lower than where they should be. And that's really what we're looking at, is their visual potential. So that's really the key is making sure you find somebody that understands the holistic portion of vision and not just if you can see clearly or not.

Denise: Right. Yeah. I don't even know whether he tested binocular function on either of us.

Dr. Miki Z: Probably not.

Denise: We. Neither of us had any, so. probably not.

Dr. Miki Z: I'm gonna guess probably not. And it's interesting because I really it. It from, like, my perspective.

Denise: Right.

Dr. Miki Z: It takes, I don't know, just a few minutes to do a quick cover test and a quick npc, you know, a near point of convergence for those that are listening, that don't know what that is, but it's like a good, like, quick bedside stress test to see. To take a quick look at the visual system. So It is a disservice. And I will say something that in the community that needs to be worked on is that there's better screening for visual dysfunctions and binocular vision dysfunctions. Yeah.

Denise: Well, what I've noticed, as I've been active in some of the support groups for strabismus, is that there's so little understanding of the fact that the doctors are not testing that, that they don't know that there is another thing that they even need to be concerned about. Right. They'll go to the ophthalmologist. The ophthalmologist will say, you're fine, like mine always did. Right. As far as fun, I mean, they don't even attack function. They just say, oh, you're concerned about your eye turn. We'll just do surgery.

Dr. Miki Z: You know, and that. And I think that, you know, we could talk for hours about the difference between ophthalmology and optometry in this arena. But you hit the nail on the head when you talked about function. Ophthalmologists are rooted. Their training is rooted in structure. Optometrists are a bit more rooted in function and understanding how the two eyes work together, how they connect with the brain, how they integrate with auditory, vestibular, cognitive, all the things. So, there is a big discrepancy in the approach and the evaluation and therefore the recommendations when a child or an adult presents to the two doctors. And I think that's where there is a lot of confusion with patients of the recommendations, or lack thereof, of recommendations, because we are looking at the same problem from two very different perspectives, right?

Denise: Yes, absolutely. And I think the other people that I get concerned about when I'm in those groups are the parents who have taken their child to the surgeon and. Or they've gone to the optometrist, the regular optometrist. They can it happens both times. Right. They go to the doctor, their child is checked and they say come back in six months. You know, it's a baby. They, they can't do anything. And so, these parents feel totally helpless and they don't really know if they want to do surgery at some point. Which of course my opinion is that you should always avoid that at all costs. It's not always the popular opinion, but the parents don't know what to do. So, what recommendation do you make to them at that point?

Dr. Miki Z: So, it's tricky because there's so many factors to that. Right. Of what the diagnosis is if there's a refractive error, if there's not what the actual diagnosis is. There's a lot of nuances to answer this question, but I think overarchingly, the, the wait and see is always hard. But with kids, you have to sometimes let them develop. Right. As long as it's not going to negatively impact their vision and their vision development. And you know, if there's a risk for amblyopia or the more common term lazy eye. Right. Is potential there, then you don't want to wait and see. Right. You want to implement. But sometimes kids do grow out of an intermittent eye turn. Right. They're as they develop and they start to get using both sides of their body. And we'll get into this of things that parents could do to help this along, but their kids sometimes intervening too early, especially if surgery is on the table, can lead to deleterious effects. You know, where we really don't. It's not in their benefit. So sometimes waiting and watching is to the patient's benefit, even though it feels like not good for the parent because you're just feel like nothing's happening. So, it's really a tricky thing. And I will say that my opinion on surgery is very much when it is well placed, it can be absolutely wonderful for a patient. But to your point, some jump to that surgery option too soon without exploring the functional piece and getting to the root of why the two eyes aren't working together.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Miki Z: Which is, you know, really the core of what we're trying to communicate out to the masses.

Denise: Exactly. And that's the comment that I make almost every time too. It's why are we having multiple surgeries without looking at the cause of the eye turn? And it doesn't matter when in life we look at that. Honestly, I agree. If it’s a baby or if it's an older child or if it's an adult like me. It was my last option. And I only did surgery because I had done a lot of vision therapy. And my doctor said, I hate to tell you this, but I really think that this is the only option that we have left to look at, you know?

Dr. Miki Z: Right. And I was gonna say that. Yeah. And that that's the thing, is that you can't write off either-- vision therapy.  And you can't write off strabismus surgery. Right. Both have been around for a really long time, and both have success stories on either end. And if you don't know this, vision therapy actually started with ophthalmologists, like, way back when, and then they sort of went away from it, but it started with them. But it's repairing that relationship between optometrists and ophthalmologists, getting them to work better together for the best patient outcomes. I don't think that a patient should have just one. I think having a healthcare team, especially with somebody with a large angle strabismus, having both, understanding both the structure and the function, having both professionals work together, always results in the best outcome. And you're a prime example of that, where you did pre-vision therapy surgery, post vision therapy. Right. Because we wouldn't imagine doing a knee surgery and then not doing physical therapy.

Denise: That's my favorite example.

Dr. Miki Z: Like, just get up and walk surgery, any surgery.

Denise: Right.

Dr. Miki Z: So it's incredible to me that they're like that. And that's a frustration on my end with my ophthalmologist. Like, how would you not see the benefit of what we're doing? How could you write off what we're doing?

Denise: Yes.

Dr. Miki Z: You know, yes, it's tricky, but for parents to go back to your question, the parents of that wait and see. Sometimes letting the kid develop and giving the eyes a chance and the visual system and the brain a chance to develop normally is really, really valuable. And it can feel frustrating in the moment, but implementing surgery too soon can have really negative effects, leading into multiple surgeries and more complications down the line.

Denise: Yes. Yes. Well, I have lots of examples I could share, but we don't need to go there. I think that it would be helpful to give parents some things that they can do right, not just watching their child, but what can they actually do differently than perhaps the mainstream parent would do to just really push that development along in a positive manner.

Dr. Miki Z: Sure. So, we have to remember, and I think if parents hear this and understand this, what I'm going to say next will make more sense. But vision is learned. Vision Is a learned process. As babies, we can't see anything, we have high prescriptions, our eye muscles aren't myelinated yet. That's why babies have those googly eyes, right? You, the visual system is so immature at birth and it has to, every step of the way has to be learned. And it all builds on top of each other so you can't skip visual steps. It just doesn't work. So, with that, the things that you can do is make sure as infants, right, there's high contrast images that they're looking at, giving them good, all different visual objects to look at, making sure that life is varied and you don't have to go and spend lots of money. Like life is vision therapy and life is visual development. Really look at how the two eyes are working together. So, things like ball play and balloon play and bubble play with your infants and your toddlers are so beneficial for many reasons. One, it helps them focus on an object, track it, but they're also converging and looking at it as they're coming in, right? So that's working that binocularity feel. Then you have, you know, bringing objects far away and then close to them is working their focusing muscle. So, doing that, playing, you know, I spy with a little puppet or a, a toy where you have them, you know, it's up on to the right and then down to the left, right? They're learning those that ocular motor skill of saccades and have them track and look pursuits, right? So those just getting in and actively playing with your child, which sounds so silly to say, unfortunately, right? 2026, many families, both parents are working, they come home, everyone's tired, it's dinner time, bath time, trying to do all the things. Screens are a big part of the problem because kids are losing out on the active use of their vision. Looking at a screen does not develop visual skills. We are just not exercising those muscles. We are just not getting any depth perception from it. And, and for parents, just really thinking about what you're doing with your child, being active with them, playing with them. And again, you don't have to spend money if you're feeding them with a spoon. Move that around. There are some, you know, the old school, like airplane, but the kid, the baby and the toddler are tracking that those skills are being developed. So really just being conscientious of what you're doing with your child and how you're doing it really helps to develop their visual skills. And just getting everybody off the screens, connecting and doing those simple activities can really help to, to get those visual skills where they need to be.

Denise: Yeah. A couple of things that my daughters do is go on long walks pushing the child in the stroller or carrying them on the, you know, the front pack or the backpack or whatever so that they're really moving in nature. They're seeing distance, you know, and then of course, avoiding the screens too, because obviously I love what you said. It's. That's not real life. Right. But so, getting out in real life, I think is a key thing.

Dr. Miki Z: Yeah. And it sounds silly to say, but our eyes and our vision, we're meant to be hunters and gatherers and farmers and fishermen. We're not designed to look up close and we're losing so many skills by being on a screen. You know, my daughter, when she started kindergarten, they, the whole school got iPads and they were sending home her homework every night on the iPad. And I gently said to the kindergarten teacher, I was like, I don't think this is developmentally appropriate. Like, she is not cutting, she's writing her name with her finger, but not a pen she can't hold. Like, what are we doing here? And it really was eye, pun intended. Eye opening for me to see what it was like and what. I'm sure her experience isn't unique. Right. A lot of schools and a lot of districts and a lot of teachers are just becoming reliant on technology. So even though they're sitting at school all day and they're supposed to be getting all this interaction and learning, a lot of it is spent in front of a screen.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Miki Z: Doing math on a screen. It just doesn't make sense. So, you know, I sometimes get a little flack because parents are like, it's helpful, it's this, it's that, and it is. And believe me, I'm a parent. Do I use a well-placed TV show when I need to cook dinner? Hundred percent. Right. Like, let's be real.

Denise: Right.

Dr. Miki Z: Like, I'm, I'm not. No screens, but it's being very conscientious of how and what you're doing with your child and their vision and their development and getting their body moving, getting it out in nature, having them, having those different experiences helps to develop their vision.

Denise: Right. Yeah. What kinds of things should parents be watching for with their children when they may, or maybe they're not concerned, but maybe they should be.

Dr. Miki Z: Right. So, I think the biggest red flag is if there is any avoidant behavior. Avoiding doing, avoiding reading, avoiding playing puzzles. Avoiding playing on the playground. Right. Any avoidant behavior should kind of ring a bell. Right? Because, like, well, why, you know, there's no kid on this planet that doesn't want to play, doesn't want to learn. Like, by nature, they are inquisitive and they just want all of the information that the world has for them. So, if they're not doing those things, it should have a little, like, tick off in your head, like something's not right. Right. Or if they're not developing properly in a motor skill. Right. Like if they're not walking or crawling or running or jumping. Right. Well, why. Sometimes there is a visual etiology to that. Right. Because if they can't see their space or gauge their space properly, those things can become very difficult to do. A little bit more subtle is either like a head turn or if they close one eye, if they are very sensitive to the sun, sometimes without, like, light blue eyes. Right. Sometimes that's indicative of underlying issues that need to be looked into. And obviously, if you're seeing an intermittent eye turn, you should be going to an eye care provider of some sort to get some baseline on what's happening. But those are really the biggest things that you are looking for in your kids.

Denise: Yeah. Well, and I. I love that you did mention avoidant behavior, including on the playground, because my daughter's issues were not in. the classroom. They were in life. Right. And I didn't even notice, really, because I just thought, oh, well, she just likes to read. She'd rather read than, you know, take dance lessons or whatever the other thing would be, you know, or we. We did music, and so we didn't do dance. That kind of a choice, you know. And so It didn't become an issue until. Well, I don't even think it. I ever saw it as an issue. Right. I mean, she had an eye turn when she was three. She got glasses like me. I knew she was like me. The doctor said we were both fine. You know, so by the time I found out I wasn't fine, then I'm like, she can't be fine.

Dr. Miki Z: Yeah, right.

Denise: But how do I figure it out? You know, the only way was to take her to the developmental optometrist, you know, But I did ask her that question. Do you ever cover your eye when you're trying to read? And that's when she told me that she was seeing double. And children will not tell you they're saying they're seeing double unless you ask them and you. It's obvious what you mean by what is seeing double?

Dr. Miki Z: I'm so glad you said that. Because kids can't communicate. They just. It's their visual world. So, to them it's normal. Right. They don't know any different. They, they, they don't have the words. So, by asking those questions, you know, or really paying attention to your kid, like, while they're doing their work or, you know, those sorts of things are so important because they don't have the language or the wherewithal of, you know, being able to say what they're seeing.

Denise: And some of them accommodate really well for everything.

Dr. Miki Z: Kids are really adaptable. They are incredible at compensating. And especially if they're super smart, you'll never know. It's really, you know, kids are challenging in the sense that they can trick you. I had a patient who came to me when she was 7 and the. Because she failed her school screening and she was like, plano plus seven in the other eye, but was doing great academically, had nothing really that was indicative of a visual issue. And it took me, like years to convince the dad that this was real. Like, he, he didn't believe me. And I was like begging him to do vision therapy because she was so under, like, like all of the things, like, she wasn't going to wear those glasses. I was like, we have to do contacts. He was like, what are you talking about? And he thought I was looney tunes. And then he went three other doctors who also the same thing. And he came back, but it was so hard for him to wrap his head around because she never complained. And there was no outward signs. Once we started picking through, we could. He was like, oh, oh. And then I was like, yeah, but when, when they're doing well academically, I think there's less of a flag. Right. That. Because you're like, oh, my kid just doesn't like that. My kid just wants to be home. My kid doesn't want to do any sports. Okay. You know, but. But it's always good to look into if there's any of that avoidant behavior.

Denise: Yeah, I think that's an easy way to answer it that encompasses everything, you know, so if the child is not going to actually tell us, the parent needs to know what questions to ask, right?

Dr. Miki Z: Yes. What.

Denise: What would you think would be the starting point for that?

Dr. Miki Z: Well, I always would start with can you. You know, and it. Sometimes it could just be observation. Right. Just actually looking at your kid and how they're doing things or is There, that head turn. Are they closing an eye? Are they getting really close to a paper? Are they blinking a lot? Those are all indications. Something's like probably. Well, but also asking them like do the words move on the page when you're reading? And I think when we say double, people are like, there's the misconception that it's like two like separate things but sometimes it just looks like ghosting on the page. Right. Like it's not like true double, but it's like that, that movement of the letters that is confusing. So, asking those questions and just really looking at if I, I guess asking like do you get a headache? Is there any eye strain? Is it hard to maintain looking at near for long periods of time and really having that conversation with them and you know, when they're really little, it really comes down to observation. But all kids should be getting annual eye exams and that, that is a, a good starting point for most parents. So, if any parents that are listening haven't gotten their kids eyes checked formally, not just at their pediatrician, I would recommend that be a good starting point.

Denise: Yeah. And if their doctor's not testing binocular function, then more questions have to be asked as far as that goes too. Right?

Dr. Miki Z: Yeah. And I think it is okay as the parent to ask those questions like what is my, my child's visual posture? Do they have an appropriate near point of convergence? What's their depth perception? You, I, I, I think that and as patient, as a patient you are really in control. Right. Your doctors are providing a service, but you get to choose who you bring your services to. Right. Like you get to choose that. You know, obviously sometimes we're dictated by insurance, but you really have to advocate for yourself and for your child and say like what are you looking at? Are we looking at the whole part of the vision or are we just looking at the first piece of is it healthy and can they see? Right. Like I want to know more about my child's visual system. Are they equipped to learn? And I think that is the key is because you don't just need to see clearly to learn to be ready to learn. You need to have all of those other visual skills to do well academically. Right. You need to have good binocular function, you need to have a great focusing muscle function, you need to have great tracking and scanning and then you have to have those perceptual skills that often also get pushed to the wayside. So, being in, actively involved in what's happening in the eye exam and just Say, well, what are you testing? You know, what does all of this mean? Is really, really important. And just know that as a parent, you can ask questions, and if the doctor doesn't respond the way that you want, it's okay to get a second opinion or third or fourth.

Denise: I. Yes. And I did tell a mother that at one point, and she got a lot of different opinions from ophthalmologists and developmental optometrists and lots of different approaches. And the. The whole, wait, I won't do anything till they're five or, you know, that kind of thing. And. And she found it really frustrating.

Dr. Miki Z: I can imagine. I can imagine. And, you know, at me as a parent, I could see how that would be frustrating. You know, my own experience. Right. My son went to the dentist, and the dentist was like, oh, I think he has a little. He had an injury and then he lost all of his front teeth. And then his. His tongue started poking through. So, a little bit of a tongue thrust. So, he was like, ah, maybe we'll just wait six months. But it might start affecting his bite. I don't know.

Denise : You could.

Dr. Miki Z: If you want to be active, you can go to a speech therapist. And I was, like, I said to him, I said, if he was yours, what would you be doing with him? And I think that question, for any doctor, will put them in a pause to say, oh, oh, right. Sometimes we, as the physician, are moving so quickly and we're trying to see as many patients as we possibly can. And, you know, and I'm guilty of that, too, but when a patient will say to me, if this was yours, what would you do? It puts the pause to say, okay, actually, let's talk about that conversation. What could we be doing more actively? Because the parents that are likely listening to this are the ones that are looking to do more for their kids and to be an active participant in their child's life, making sure that they are as successful as possible. But. But I really want you to know as a patient that you have to advocate for yourself and your child. And a good doctor won't be upset if you ask them questions.

Denise: Right? Yeah, I. I think that's very true.

Dr. Miki Z: Right.

Denise: Yep. Sometimes it's hard to find that person.

Dr. Miki Z: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and. And it's okay if it takes you a few times to find them. You know, in there, especially in the developmental optometry world, there's a lot of different approaches. So, if something, you know, if one doctor doesn't. And every patient is different. So I have a great group of Doctors here on Long island that sometimes I refer, you know, if I feel like I'm not getting somewhere with a patient, I will refer to my other optometric colleagues that do vision therapy, but maybe in a slightly different way that might be more beneficial to this patient. It. Because at some point. Right. The patient's frustrated, I'm frustrated, we're not making progress. But let's get you to somebody else that might be looking at it in a different way. And there's nothing. You know, some of my patients are like, you're sending me to another optometrist. I'm like, yes, because they have different expertise and different experiences than I do that might benefit you. So really just asking those questions, pushing for what you believe as the patient needs to be done. Because think about it, like, for you, if you were just. You were just okay and okay and everything's fine, but, like, if you think and look back, maybe your life would have been different and you would have chosen different things, different avenues. You might have had different experiences had you gotten treatment sooner.

Denise: Right. Well, I believe everything happens for a purpose.

Dr. Miki Z: Right.

Denise: And if that had happened, I wouldn't be sitting here today with you. Right.

Dr. Miki Z: That's true. That's true. That is absolutely.

Denise: That's what's turned me into the advocate that I am. Right. But, yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think that advocating for yourself is essential and advocating for your child. And I like to encourage people to find ways to make those developmental things fun, you know? So what I'm working on right now, I'm just sharing it with you for the first time, is when I first started vision therapy, I had the thought that my expertise could be used in a kind of a creative way. I taught early childhood music and movement for 20 years.

Dr. Miki Z: Oh, wow. Okay.

Denise: And so my children all had that. My. My youngest included, which was, you know, she's the one who's mini me. And so she always had that. I kind of feel like that's why her symptoms hid so well. Okay.

Dr. Miki Z: I agree.

Denise: She had all this experiential movement really early on. Right. And so she was probably a little more developed, a little more coordinated maybe. So, it didn't show up that she was struggling to, you know, see any kind of depth, especially at distance. And so I'm working on trying to create something. It's still evolving. That makes it fun for parents to interact in those positive ways with their children involving music and movement.

Dr. Miki Z: I love that. I think it's so important, and there's not a lot of that out there, you know, and for me, right. Like I am always looking for things to add to like my therapy room. And I feel like having a course or having activities or even for my parents that I can refer to. Right. If. Right. Because I, I really advocate for first eye exams between 6 and 12 months of age. Right. And I give them like tips and tricks to do with your baby to help develop your vision, normal or not. But to have a resource to say, add this in to your play with your baby and this is going to help in conjunction with your vision and your motor development, your auditory development. The integration of all of those things would be so beneficial.

Denise: Yeah. I had a class for babies actually.

Dr. Miki Z: You did? How fun.

Denise: It was the best.

Dr. Miki Z: So you just need to recreate that.

Denise: Babies, toddlers and you know, all the ages up through group piano for six and sevens, you know, before they're ready for private. Because I actually am a piano teacher.

Dr. Miki Z: Okay.

Denise: Yeah.

Dr. Miki Z: I love that. Yeah. No, you need to somehow put it in a, a bite, bite sized form and get it out there because I think it's so needed and from a parent perspective.. I'm looking for resources like that. Right. Like my, my son that's now in speech.  I was, you know, searching prior to that, like looking for resources out there and you know, I bought courses to learn how to help develop speech development because that's not my expertise and I just want it to better understand how to raise a child. You know, my daughter, I remember Googling like, how do you play with a baby? I literally googled that.

Denise: Like, it's because we don't have the grandparents always on the scene teaching, teaching those little things, you know?

Dr. Miki Z: Yeah.

Denise: Like you don't remember what your parent did with you when you're, when you become a parent? No.

Dr. Miki Z: And, and you. I, I literally, my husband's like, are you literally googling how to play with your child? I said yes. I don't know what to do with a six month old.

Denise: I don't know.

Dr. Miki Z: Like, I know but like, what else do I do auditorily speech wise, you know, and it's these little tips and tricks that parents are looking for. You know, something as simple as like reading a book not with them on your lap, but across from them so that they can watch your mouth move.

Denise : Nice.

Dr. Miki Z: Like a light bulb went off, you know, same thing, like visually. Right. Like a parent might be listening. Like, huh. I never thought that like rolling a ball back and forth with my baby was visually beneficial. It thought it was.

Denise: It was in the class.

Dr. Miki Z: Literally.

Denise: Yeah. That's. That's one of the activities that we would do. And I. I learned it because I learned how to teach it.

Dr. Miki Z: Right.

Denise: I didn't know it either, so.

Dr. Miki Z: But the. The. The auditory and the movement and the music is so. And is so helpful for timing and for. And those lay the early developmental skills for being able to read and to communicate. So please do what you're planning on doing. I'm a vote of confidence. Yay.

Denise: Thank you. I need to let you go. I know you have a patient coming, but thank you so much for sharing this conversation with me today. I think it'll be really valuable for people.

Dr. Miki Z: Denise, thank you so much for having me on. I. I could talk to you all day. Thank you so much.

Denise: Well, maybe we'll just have to do it again.

Dr. Miki Z: Okay, I'm in. Okay, great. All right. Thank you so much.

Denise: Thank you.

Dr. Miki Z: Bye. Bye.

Denise: Bye. Thanks for listening to the Healing Our Sight podcast today. I'd love to connect with you. You can leave a comment by clicking the link in the show notes. I love receiving your messages. You're also invited to join the Healing our site Facebook group. Let me know what resonated with you and how I can better serve you.