Episode #110 | Neurotech Investing With Varun Turlapati, Chaanakya Capital

Neurotech is the category most investors whisper about and then walk away from: too technical, too regulated, too slow. We wanted to talk to someone who leans in anyway, so I sat down with Varun Turlapati, founder of Chanakya Capital, to hear how he’s building an early-stage fund dedicated to neurotech devices and why he thinks the “long horizon” objection often misses what’s actually happening on the ground.

We unpack Varun’s path from software engineering into venture capital, including the mindset shift from analysis paralysis to fast iteration with smart guardrails. From there, we widen the frame on what neurotech means. Yes, brain-computer interfaces matter, but we also get into neuromodulation, bioelectronics, and the nervous system as the body’s command network, linking the brain, gut, and heart, and addressing disease. That lens turns “niche” into “everyone with a brain,” and it changes how you think about markets, clinical impact, and investable product strategy.

Varun also shares the practical mechanics of deep tech investing: how he triages an 80+ company pipeline, separates “interesting” from “investable,” and brings in PhD scientists, physicians, and specialist advisors to evaluate clinical workflows and real differentiation. We dive into real examples across neuroprosthetics, Alzheimer’s, ADHD, and autism wearables, and a smart shunt for hydrocephalus, plus how regulatory signals like Breakthrough Device Designation can reshape the risk profile.

If you care about neurotech startups, medical devices, FDA pathways, or where venture capital goes after AI becomes commoditized, this conversation will sharpen your evaluation of both science and execution. Subscribe to Lattice, share this with a founder or investor who’s curious about neurotech, and leave a review with the biggest question you still have about building in this space.

Show notes: https://3dheals.com/episode-110-neurotech-investing-with-varun-turlapati-chaanakya-capital/

YouTube recording: coming soon

Transcript

Welcome And Why Neurotech Scares VCs

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hi there, welcome to the Lattice episode 110. I am your host, Dr. Jenny Chen. Most venture funds shy away from Neurotech for its longtime horizons and technical hurdles. But Warren Telepatty saw opportunity where others saw risk. As founder of Chenakia Capital is building a fund dedicated to Neurotech's transformative potential at the intersection of biology, AI, and engineering. In this episode, Warren shares his journey from being a software engineer to venture capitalist and reveals how he evaluates deep tech startups through rigorous deal flow, expert advisory, and precise risk triage. Tune in for a masterclass on deep tech investing, neurological innovation, and the mindset it takes to lead in a field reshaping how we understand the brain. Today we have our very first ventral capitalist to join the pod. So I'm I'm really happy that we have someone who's from the investor side to talk to us. And his name is Warun Tolopatty. He has a fund. The name is Genekia. Cap uh capital, sorry. I I'm trying uh Warung, as you know, but uh you probably can pronounce it better. So why don't you just start with telling us what this fund aims for?

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yeah, we are an early stage two million uh fund, and we invest in again early stage neurotech device startups. That's pretty much it. Um, you know, and when I say early early stage, just to clarify, anywhere from pre-seed through series A, and we can talk about why series A still is early early enough for us to get into. Uh but yeah, that's pretty much what we do.

From Software Engineer To VC Curiosity

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Well, um, did you grow up wanting to be a venture capitalist?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

No, I probably did not even hear of that term until 2015. Uh, for the first time is when I heard it. Until then, I thought maybe super rich people start their own companies and do something somehow, and or maybe they have like a uh I don't know, like they're born into wealth or something, which is true for a lot of people, but you know, I just did not know that this term exists, venture capital. I knew of stock, stock market traders and those kind of stuff, derivative maybe, but never venture capitalist until 2015.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

So what happened in 2015?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, uh we uh were listening, so we okay, we uh I was uh an um one of the earlier employees, engineers at uh a very early stage startup. And uh one of the perks at that time, especially, you know, uh riding on the waves of like Facebook, Uber, and some of those things that were like beginning to uh to gain a lot of attention in the Silicon Valley, especially, uh startup perks were getting more and more creative. But one of the best ones for me always was the ability to hobknob with people uh from different walks of life, especially in the venture space and startup space. So you get to hear from other founders and uh other early stage uh engineers, uh, marketing folks, sales and everything. And so the CEO of that company, Dados IO's the company I was working in. That was my first early stage startup, by the way. Until then, I'd worked for a bigger company called Riverbelt. And so this uh CEO used to bring in, you know, VCs, either uh our company's VCs, or even other VCs in and around this the sector of B2B SaaS, which is where we were at at that time. And so uh he used to do that, like lunch and learn Fridays, you know, uh grab lunch, just listen to somehow the subject matter experts come in and so on. And uh you know, mostly when it was the VCs, I would see how uh perked up everybody was, catching on to every syllable they would utter, and it made me sit up and take notice. To me, in that naive view of pre-2015, where I didn't even know there was something called venture capital, um, maybe 2013 something, maybe let's say. But anyhow, uh, you know, I I looked at how knowledgeable they seem, how much money they seem to have, right? Again, it it took me a bit, yeah, exactly. So it's it's it started with like, oh, this one person has money, power, and the the the magnetism to to to to capture an entire audience. And I was like, well, I want to be like that. That's it. It was pretty much that. Of course, you know, along the way I learned, uh unlearned, relearned a whole lot about what venture capital is and so on. But that intrigue started then. And so I I have that that founder to to thank, you know, for that, those kind of sessions. And uh just the curious person I am. Um it it to me seemed to be the best place to be to solve different kinds of problems. And so that's you know, not just engineering, but like what else? Oh, just because your product works well, it doesn't mean it'll get sold, you have to market it, you have sell it, you do this, that, uh, you have to think about valuation, acquisitions, a lot of those things. So I I was like, yeah, I think this is a place that I eventually want to land to be truly not bored at any point in my life because I have so many different things to do, is how I viewed it.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

I agree. You know, some of the most uh the best conversation I had were were with uh investors or venture capitalists because they're so knowledgeable, have a broader vision about the field. And I think it it there's a lot of foresight on your previous CEO to actually uh facilitate this kind of cross-pollination of knowledge between engineering and business. It's really it's a it's a lot of enrichment process for that.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah. So I agree.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Okay, you got inspired, but that was 2015, that's like more than a decade ago, and then you just started this fund. What happened between then and now?

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah. So 2015, it started the the thought process. I felt grossly inadequate to do something like that. I didn't have the money. Let's start with that, right? Uh I still don't, but but you know, we learned that yeah, you know, you can raise a fund, you can do some things and so on. But that took some learning. But that learning was not something I could do, I could afford, uh, you know, at or on the job, right? These are things I had to learn on the side, and nobody would take me seriously if I just asked more than a few questions, uh, as insightful as they may be. The opportunities had to be made. Uh, the most important, one of the most important of the opportunities were to be in rooms where those discussions were happening in a more relevant manner. Outside, we can as employees and engineers, we'll be like, oh, have you heard this news? Oh, have you seen this latest thing? And that's it. But there was no insider information that I could get. Yeah, it happened. After the fact, we kind of understand and we reverse engineer how that may have happened, but no real insight. So then how do I get into these conversations? Do I have somebody in my network who can take me alongside the thing? And I really hope that that would happen. Somebody would just take me out of the wings and just go, you know, introduce me to a bunch of folks over beer. Those are the kind of stories I heard. Uh, you know, all like cinematic stuff, but happens only to very few people. But again, it has to be some sort of planned serenity. And so that's what I started getting into. Like, how do I do this? How do I make this happen? Okay, then I next said, okay, let's go to meetups, where I am now talking to at least other founders, aspiring founders, other engineers from other companies. And over a period of time, at least I had started addressing what I felt was very technical, technological gap in my resume. It was still early mid-stage at that time for me. And so I said, okay, well, let's improve. So, for what's the first part that I need to talk and convey that I know things, that I should know things, right? I cannot just BS and just go very far with it. So I need to do that. So then let's learn some of these things. How did I learn? There are different ways. I changed switch companies, jobs, sectors, uh, the product I was working on, the programming language that I was using. So often uh the jumps that I made from that point on were pretty uh aggressive. I the moment I was feeling comfortable at a job, I pushed myself out. I said, this is it, and I like sure I can become a manager and director and so on. Yes, eventually I wanted to get to those ranks as well. But there was a certain level of uh saturation that I would feel, and at that point I said, no, no, no, this is not what I want. I want to be uncomfortable in somewhere else and therefore learn some of those things and force myself to do different, different things. So that happened at the technological level first, then I got sector level as well, and then I got comfortable, and then it became very evident to me that no matter where I go, what I do, software is just a tool. Uh the problem could be anything, and software is one of the tools that you could use to solve the problems. But the problem solving is the important part. That needs to be clear, and then software can become a tool. You cannot just throw software at everything and hope that it'll solve some problem. So those were these, those were where those were times where I started focusing on okay, problem and solution, not just like, oh, I'll build this fancy tool and let's see what problem gets solved. That was also key because that's how VCs also want people to solve problems as well. And that's those are the best bat companies. Um so I started building that up. And you know, so that's how it took some time. I said I felt inadequate then. I still feel inadequate now, but you know, slightly better version of inadequate, and I said, okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

So when did you first write your uh your when did you write your first check? And what was that like, that experience?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

It was thrilling because that's the first time I remember I not the first time, actually. I had already made uh investments into a VC fund. That was my friend's VC fund based out of Bangalore in India. Uh so I already had written a check at all. So it was not like the first ever investment in the VC space, but first angel check. So it's my own name, directly getting it out get getting onto the cap table. Uh yeah, that was felt very special, like seeing like preferred shares, and I was like, ooh, this is the first time. And I was like stiffening my collar, and you know, my wife and I were like, oh wow, and my wife didn't even know what preferred versus common was and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

And I had to explain to her, like she probably doesn't know what the hell is going on. So that allowed you to do that.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

No, but actually, I did no, but actually, she knew the company, she's the one who brought this company. The company's psionic. Uh, she's the one that brought Psionic to me, saying, like, this is my ex-lab partner at PhD, and like one of the uh things that they did intersected. My wife is PhD in neuroengineering, and you know that that should probably give away why. Also, we are very confident about neurotech as well. Uh, but but anyway, and so that's how she knew. So, so even without Adil, the founder, pitching anything about psionic, Joanna was she pitched the technicality of it all. Like she said, this is what it is, this is how it works, and so on. Almost, almost stopping short of shut up and sign the check, right? Uh, and so so she was a very influential person in that deal happening, by the way. So uh without that, my angel's check could have gone maybe somewhere else. But the impact that psionic has made so far, like even on other people's lives, uh, is something that I'm really happy that I did that as my first check. Uh, but that happened.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

I regret I regret I did not write that check in 2021. I think you wrote that check. And I was presented with the opportunity actually, probably even before 2021, actually. I think I knew about them even in 2018, and I hesitated. Um because there were a lot of opportunities, like you said. How do you pick one out of hundreds of these? And also, you know, you seem to be a risk taker, you know, you don't like comfort too much. And but what were you what were you expecting from these investments back then? So you didn't really want to make money. But were you expecting uh like were you ex because I knew 90% of Android checks, you know, is basically gonna go to zero, as you know, the stats.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

I mean, what were your mentality to say, you know, how do I increase my odds of success in this kind of in the face of this kind of unfavorable statistics?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yeah. I I may have to go a little before sometime. I do not know when this happened. I I used to be somewhat of an over-anal analyzer, like analysis by paralysis kind of a person. Yeah. Some somewhere I broke it, like I don't recall when exactly along the way. Uh, because one of the things that I do always is constantly question me, myself, my approach, my thought process. Am I doing well in my own standards or not? And so that not only on the professional front, but even personal front. Like, hey, I was like, I'm right now I'm learning Arabic as my seventh language, by the way. And so things like that, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:18

And so so Arab is very, very difficult. That's a very difficult language.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Actually, I'll tell you what, uh yeah. It's not that bad, actually. Uh come to think of it. I I think I think Mandarin actually was easy to learn as a language, except reading was hard. Like reading was hard because it's not additive, it's not like, oh, you remember a symbol and then you add some variant and then it sounds like it. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

You speak Mandarin?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

No, I used to.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

I can I can introduce myself and I can barely say that I I want to eat vegetarian food, uh, no fish, and those things. Uh that's that's about it. But um but see, that's that's what so the language learning is something that thrills me, and so now Arabic. Um and so generally as a person, that's what I do. And so along the way, like I said, I broke that an analysis by paralysis approach that I used to have, or or kind of compulsion that I felt, like, oh, I have to go through all the stats first to make a decision. Then I started understanding that look, uh, things are gonna have some sort of a risk, and at the end of the day, you have to dip yourself into it, which is what I did even with those job hops, right? Like, hey, I don't know that programming language, but hey, you know, let's go in, use that as a forcing function, because if I don't produce on the job, then I'll get fired. Like that kind of a thing uh uh you know compelled me to uh uh to go deeper into that kind of risk-taking territory. So I'd already done that a few times, not in the venture space, granted, but on the investment side, I did penny stocks sometimes, I did like this other thing, uh explore like uh options and so on. I eventually didn't do it because it needs capital at the end of the day, it's intensive and so on. But then slowly starting to take some of these risks. Some of them were validating, some of them reinforced this uh this thing, like, yeah, you have to get uh yourself into this, you have to be prepared to lose some money, uh, even in the penny stocks. I think I invested in five, four of them crashed, but that one somehow magically doubled in a way that it made up for all of these. And I was like, that's not a bad thing. Yeah, sure, it didn't do me well, but hey, it could have gone worse, all five could have been lost, right? And so then, of course, I never invested in any other penny stock after that. Even better, I now know how to recognize something as of like, oh, this is a FOMO for like pump and dump kind of a thing. So it so those experiences built me as well, right? Uh so I understand like how to not just get into the sway of things. And so we see uh same thing, like uh yeah, I mean statistics and so on. Then I started understanding how my friend does it. He was GP at uh Java Capital in Bangalore with just another third fund. Same thing, I keep asking him, like, how do you measure this? How do you see this? Same thing. I you know it helped me to understand his perspective as well. Uh and at the end of the day, even now, with this fund, even the the starting it, the doing it, uh enabled a whole lot more things to follow. Without that, I could have been stuck in this like what's my thesis gonna be, how do I perfect this? How do I do this? That that iteration is the more important thing, and that's how I you know said, yeah, this is a we have to just start.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Just ship it. That's all. You have to ship it. Yeah. You know, I think you're a kind of opposite of compulsion of anything. You mentioned that you were compulsively analyzing, but that's the opposite of compulsion, because you really that means you're you you you you're very non-compulsively making decisions uh in a way. I just want to mention a little paradox. How so I'm not following. Well, you you you're not because I make compulsion uh compulsive investments for sure. Uh I don't don't I don't do enough analysis a lot of times. And that's compulsion. But you know, you you seem to be actually overanalyzing, you know what I mean? I see.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

No, well I think may want to draw a distinction there. I think it could be going a little into the impulsive side, is probably what you meant. But what I meant was like uh this OCD of overanalysis is like that's where the word compulsion I use. Like it's like, oh, I have to first analyze everything before I get into it, sort of a thing. Uh and that is something I broke, is all I meant to say.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

But that could be your superpower. I mean, you you you are you're in software, you know, you were in software for a majority of your uh career, and now you're pivoting into an almost entirely different space. Now, granted, you are very in close proximity to neuro to neuroscience people, but that's not your career. And so how does that background help you to form your current fund, which is focusing exclusively in neurotech?

Launching A Fund Through Fast Iteration

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, uh similar principles. You're right, absolutely. So so uh creating incremental value and showing progress and momentum uh far uh outweighs anything else, right? Uh then you're kind of resigning to fate, chance, etc. etc. Uh, and there is always that that that element of fate and chance and risk and all of those things. But uh the way I think about this um is look, even for somebody like me who's now now not afraid of jumping into the deep end of the pool, uh, the way to do it, and this is how I had done it before as well, um, is look, yes, do that, and you know, your best cases, of course, you'll survive and learn swimming and so on, and you will not have any fear, etc. etc. Great. But just before you jump in, how about just take a look and see if there's a lifeguard around, just in case? How about also looking and seeing where's the near nearest stairs for you? So that like you can then tell yourself, oh, I'm drowning, oh I'm panicking, but all I need to do is paddle five times, get to the nearest stairs, and then I have something to grab onto, right? So, and then is there another person just to see just in case somebody needs to be called, right? These are all you need to do before you jump in. The jumping in you still have to do, but don't just jump in without any other support system. That'll just save you, right? Otherwise, then you are again going back to fate and all those kind of things. So that's what you want, that's what I have been trying to do, right? So that together with uh these these micro iterations of things like just make some progress, make some progress, keep going, keep going. It also gives you time to backtrack and go another route if you're constantly giving this feedback loop for yourself. And so uh even with the Neurotech fund, uh two things aligned there. One, look, I applied for jobs at VC firms, uh, even early stage, like literally, so after close to two decades of being in some sort of leadership positions and being uh on path for like director VP level uh uh uh roles, uh I was happy to apply for unpaid internships at VC uh organizations. And then I got rejected left, right, center, no idea why. Uh and then I said, well, you know what, maybe let's get into a fellowship program where they may help accelerate and help me launch my VC fund. And so uh I applied to a couple of them. I got through both of them, and then I had to decide. Uh I think VC Lab embodied a lot of the principles that I was looking for generally as a person, like, hey, these are the kind of things that I want to do, these are how I want to do things. Uh, the Mensarius oath to be ethical and so on was something that was refreshing. I was like, yeah, that's good. I like a firm that is launching VCs, not at all costs, but like with some some uh ethics, some uh grounding principles and so on. So I started that. Uh and soon enough, even within that, there were like these iterations that we needed to do, like, hey, this week, let's get your thesis perfected. So you want to be able to speak about the fund and not bore people to death and things like that, right? Like one liner. And so all of that happened, and I was seeing that I was making progress. I was seeing that when I was overwhelmed by some of the fellow cohort members who joined alongside me. Uh it was about 2,000 odd people who joined with me on that first day. And by the end of it, I think I was one of five VC firms to have launched from that 2000 uh big cohort, right? Uh and I still am one of the top performers. And they I get the 2025 cohort? It was a 2025 cohort or last year, this time ex last year, this time exactly, I was in that cohort. Uh and so uh so we are one year old, by the way, at this point. So just letting you know. And so, yay, um uh that reminds me I need to send out invitations for a you know annual meeting for all the stakeholders. But yeah, so so going through that, it it became clear to me that uh when I'm taking some feedback, I'm moving forward, I'm actually making more progress seemingly. Than some of the folks who have come with like a decade of VC experience and meaning they've been in the VC firms, maybe working in some jobs or something and have fundraised, etc. etc. And yet here they are not able to let go of some uh egoistic statistics which are not necessarily adding to their thesis or something like that, right? But I didn't have any such issues. I was like getting straight to the point of like, okay, this is not working, okay, fine, let's throw it out, let's bring this in. No ego. That helped me, you know, quick quickly uh be able to launch. And then we also were able to accept funding into the fund, uh into the yeah, into the fund and then deploy on the go as well. So I know there are a lot of capital call structures and so on. We again through VC Lab, there's this nice little uh structure where we are able to raise a little and deploy, raise and deploy. That worked magically for me, for me particularly, because I was hoping for something like that, and that came and fell in my lap. So again, it's trying to make these these odds better and better over time with the risk taking. And then this having come uh come along uh really uh helped me do exactly how I shipped software that iterate, iterate. And so now soon enough, by 10 months, we had four portfolio companies, right? And um, you know, now we have like I said eight uh strong companies out of the 80 in our pipeline, eight very strong ones. We are able to write checks for up to four companies even at this point. If I don't raise any more capital right from this minute, I we can still do four companies. And so that integration is uh yeah, that's yeah, and especially in times like these, where it's still uncertain volatile time.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

That's interesting. The this rolling fundraising uh platform that you are using um is interesting. But let's let's go back a little bit of the fund, the capital, the uh Chanakya capital. Um, I mean, I think you as a fund creator, you're basically an entrepreneur, uh just like all the startup founders, in a way. How did you now this name that I'm having challenged challenged to pronounce who is this person? Is that your family?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

No, actually, it's uh the name of an ancient Indian philosopher, economist, and strategician. Uh, he wrote a book, uh, I mean, he wrote probably many books, but one of the famous ones is called Arthashastra, which translates to the science and technique of money and wealth. And he was the emperor's advisor. This was in 300 BC, um, for one of the biggest uh empires in India at that time. And so uh he wrote books on how to treat people, how to make money, and how to you know gain more influence, etc. etc. Uh and so uh so no that I felt was very appropriate uh because I, you know, I wanted to name it for I wanted to have a unique name, first of all, but also something that meant well, right? And so I tend to get drawn to some of these historical references, so people ask me about it and so on. So I thought, yeah, why not do all of that together? I didn't quite anticipate that the name the pronunciation is going to be that much of a challenge, not just you, like everybody, but I'm like, hey, it's okay. I'll use that as a teaching opportunity as well. So it's Chanakya Capital.

What Counts As Neurotech

SPEAKER_03 25:11

No, I I love it. It's very unique. And I already, and I I know I was asking you, uh it's a bit of a joke because I already know that you told me what that is. And I actually added his book because a fascinating individual with uh lots of wisdom to learn from. I'm not missing that. I mean, this is very similar to Confucius and you know, all these philosophers from thousands of years ago, you know, they can teach us a lot. So this is a great name. I love it. Now, let's go put go to Neurotech. Obviously, you're uh you already know about this field for a while, but I don't think a lot of listeners really understand what this includes.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah, so let's get the most obvious things out of the way. Uh many people who can guess what it might be would guess one of two things. One is BCI, brain computer interface. That's the obvious one. And of course, uh a lot of glamorous research uh gets published, and so yeah, it's it's the popular poster child at this point. Um the uh the other things that are that tend to be obvious is like, oh neuros, so must be something related to the mind. Yes, also. So therefore, brain also. So you can talk about neurological diseases and disorders, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, motor neuron diseases, uh, stroke, uh, you know, uh even retinal disorders, like again, optic nerve and so on. So all of these are nerves essentially, right? The there is a command and control center. Uh, one of the ways that uh okay, maybe I'll I'll put that dramatic story uh for for off for uh just a bit. But so all of these are within the space that we are interested in. And again, all of these are still obvious, I would say. The non-obvious ones are still part of our thesis, which is any technology that you use, which is grounded in neuroscience uh and biology uh to treat, manage diseases, or augment our abilities, uh, is still part of our thesis. So, what that means is say bioelectronics, specifically neuromodulation, neurostimulation. So you have the entire nervous system of the human body. That's the command and control infrastructure, essentially. And so uh these are you know, there are nerves in the in the heart, there are nerves in your gut. And so it no we're not kidding when we say we are what we eat, because yeah, I mean that's the whole thing. Uh so you if you have uh a GI disease or a disorder or a malfunction, metabolic malfunction, it it there is currently research going on which shows that they're all linked eventually to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's. This is the early concept, this is the earliest indication of where these start. People we assume Alzheimer's is here, yes, the the manifestation, the symptoms are here, but where is the food going, right? It's all going from the gut and all the way through these nervous systems and blood vessels, so on and so forth. So it's a very intricate thing, and what we have been doing is trivially chop up sectors and areas uh without paying full attention to the fact that we are completely intricately linked to everything in our body, right? Yeah, and everything in our body is in function of the brain at the end of the day. And here's where I was gonna say the dramatic thing. Uh somebody recently asked me to do a reverse pitch uh, you know, about my fan. And I only started with like two slides, which took two minutes. All I was doing was just narrating and asking people to follow along. I said, just close your eyes. Imagine that you are naked in the middle of Sahara Desert, middle of the Sahara Desert, with no shelter around, no food inside, no water inside. What do you think will happen? And I just played through that. I just walked through. Are you feeling thirsty? You close your eyes and you imagine you start feeling it. You're like, skin is burning now, and so on and so forth. You know, I fast forward, the last thing, actually. So the last thing, if you can imagine, as you are dying, you know, the the lights are going out, you're fading, and you suddenly see a spark, like a glistening of maybe some water. I would bet that you would get out all the adrenaline to get and go to there and to to try to rescue yourself. As a last resort, everything is given up, given up. The last thing to die would still be your brain. That's how powerful it is, and that's how I guess uh that's that's how self-preserving it is. And for that kind of an important piece of our body, it is the least understood part of our body, I would say, right? And we we know a lot more about deep space mining and oceans and uh subatomic particles, uh, supernovas and galaxies, but this is something we don't know, ironically, is what I feel. And so so uh again, bringing it back to all of that means that anything in our body can still be neurotech, so long as the tapping uh is through the infrastructure that I talked about, which is nerves, uh central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, spinal column, the brain itself, and things like that. So that's how we can we can actually um tackle even things like GI diseases, inflammatory diseases, cardiovascular use, and so on. So everything is neurotech for us.

Deal Flow Funnel And Diligence Stack

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Okay, that sounds good. That's like everything can be pr 3D printed from my perspective. Um, neurotech is uh is definitely, you know, it may sound like niche, but I actually think I agree with you. It basically touches upon everything. It depends on how what kind of lens you're looking at the world through. So, you know, if you're thinking about 3D printing all the time, you can think about how to print everything. But uh obviously from from you is what can your tech help in various disease verticals? So it sounds like you're you you don't have any problem with the pipeline for deal flow. Um you have 80-something companies that you could potentially going in, but that's a lot of deals to look into. How do you what is the funnel process for you to decide on eventually who to put uh investment into?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah, so initially there was a little bit of like this paralysis by like, oh my God, this sounds very interesting. This sounds very interesting, and so on. Uh over a period of time, which now is about a year, we were able to also get insights from other VCs, uh, other founders on the challenges they run into typically and so on. So, you know, it's a it's a constant learning process. Uh we uh have some sort of like instinct at at this point to say, well, yeah, this is interest, but not investable, right? Is a key distinction there. And in some cases they are boring and unglamorous, but they are very investable. Uh something that affects uh maybe diabetes and a neurotech or or cardiovascular failure and the neurotech would arguably have a big market potential, right? And so it may seem like ah, it's not controlling a drone with my thoughts. Okay, yes, but it's preserving your heart, right? And so that's also kind of important. Let's just not for kid ourselves. And so that's the way we've been viewing it. So we've been able to uh discern and decouple what seems interesting with what is investable, right? And sometimes, of course, the the best ones are the ones which are overlapping and both have both of these. And then comes the other part, which is the execution, right? So just because there's something interesting, it doesn't mean the founders may be able to pull it off. So we need to look at the credentials and you know what have they done, what are they doing, how passionate are they, how involved are they with the problem space, and so on. And so so out of the pipeline, we we have a now a sense for like how do we triage these companies, right? Uh there are overplayed markets, so it's like okay, small differentiator, no. So we sort of surprise founders when we say, uh, you know, out of class two, for example, we would prefer not 510K, right? Meaning like there's not, it's there's already a predicate existing and you're building something kind of differentiated, uh, and that's not good for us. Because we want to make sure that there is a significant technological mode and a difference and a disruptor. And so uh that's how we have started again, like triaging a bunch of things. There are some where they play in markets where there's no existing humane solution. Like Alzheimer's, with all the research, it's still the one of the harder ones that they don't have a ready solution. And then yet there are families suffering there, like uh grandson not being recognized by a grandfather, something like that, right? And so uh or or or a or a solo sole bread earner uh mother just realized that she has early onset of Alzheimer's, and now what? Right? So at at the age of 40, for example. So now what? And so these uh are problems that need solutions. And so government, the regulatory bodies in recognizing the importance of these, in some cases grant to companies uh what is called breakthrough device designation, or when they develop a device again, then the investigational device exemption, which means like, hey, there's a recognition that otherwise the standard of care is non-existent or very poor. You can try something provided you don't just explode and and just just kill the person or something. Try it and show us some basic safety data, and then we can go, you know, get get get in front of people and get them to try the devices, show efficacy. So these are things that things that we look at as well. So that's how we we are able to narrow down to what we feel are strong players, and then there is the other magical ingredient sometimes, and we have to also look at how how much traction do they have in fundraising. Um we don't want to be the only investors, not because we are afraid of being alone, no, but because if it doesn't make uh if it doesn't push the needle forward meaningfully for that company for that fundraise, it's pointless. The company will eventually not work. Now, if the technology is very compelling, we can write the memo and say, here is the memo, take it to whoever else. And not everybody's deep in their diligence on the scientific side, especially, and the neurospecific side. And so if we are able to facilitate that, we do that for very promising and interesting companies. So, yeah, it's it's a mishmash of a bunch of things, but we have slowly started to get to this uh triaging, triage ability. And then we have a team of scientists, they all come with uh PhD in some field or the other, like neuroscience, chemistry, material science. All of these are essential ingredients into neuros. It's not like a one single field, right? Um, and so uh so that's pretty important. We have a couple of doctors in our ranks as well who do diligence. So so we come together, we understand things. Uh and now recently we signed on Dr. Dr. Grant as our advisor. He's the chair of neurosurgery at Duke. Uh he's a neurosurgeon, pediatric, especially pediatric neurosurgery across the world. He's flown in to do cases, emergency cases. Uh so if he says he looks at a neurosurgical tool and says, Eh yeah, it is good, it is doable. I am not investing in that. Because I want to want him to say, Oh my god, where was this all this while? Right? And that's a clear way I can leverage his one word or one sentence feedback, and that's a game changer for us. And of course, Joanna is a fund advisor right from the beginning. Also, in case you didn't know, she's also my wife, so it makes it so much more easier. That's how she that's how she was able to come up to me and also say, Shut up and sign this check for psionic.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

Which was which was correct. Always listen to your wife.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

There you go. There you go. And that's why my advice for anyone is have marry a significantly smarter spouse.

unknown 37:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

So you don't have to work as hard. Correct. That's the only thing that I've done so far.

Portfolio Stories From Prosthetics To Shunts

SPEAKER_03 37:11

Well, um, so you said you already picked a couple of startups that I mean, one one, you already invested in Psionic, which I always also did recently, uh, at a much higher valuation, painfully. But uh what are the other, I mean you can tell tell us about Psionic a little bit, but also, you know, what are the other startups you invested in?

SPEAKER_00 37:31

So yeah, so Psionic is basically a neuroprosthetics company, um, you know, which intersects just by virtue of being neuro and prosthetics, uh, intersects with BCI and AI. Again, pretty easy to to figure that out based on that. The way they've designed it is very uh um strongly, which is uh to make sure that they've trained it on real human data, which is not something that most robotics companies have. So they've gone about it a human way, and now they have enough moat there to then use that data to train robots versus reverse engineering all these movements and then like custom fitting them into robots and so on. So that's one of the significant modes they have. Um, of course, there are a lot more for robotics companies that are coming into the picture, but again, this is something where they maintain a sizable advantage. Uh, they the design is also pretty engineering standard compliant, meaning even software engineering, you have these standards that you need to fit in. Think like a USB-C, like that's a standard connector now, right? And so that you know, there are protocols that go into how to make that work uh across all devices and so on. Um, so similarly, they have designed their hand with this you know uh Oakham standards, and we saw some of those early on. Now, with that, when I was writing that check, I still was skeptical skeptical about this one thing, which when I looked up the market, prosthetics is like a 4 billion market. So just by itself, it was not a huge market. One, two, in all uh positive thinking, I actually don't want the prosthetics market to grow at all. Right? In theory, I want the prosthetics market to be zero, like not needing to do that, but it won't, of course, there's a market, but we don't want that to grow. That's really bad. Something bad is happening there. Yeah. So then where why is this investable? So I asked myself the question. I asked Adil uh the question, and he said, no, well, we are also looking at industrial robotics applications and so on. And remember, we talked about how cleanly we designed these interfaces so we can work with humans as well as robots. I'm like, ooh, okay, then that was enough for me. I joined the Dots and I said, okay, well, in that case, it's a it's a strong market. And so when we look at portfolio companies, we also want to look at such intersections, not always with industrial, but like something neuro and then, like I said, diabetes, neuro and cancer, maybe neuro and uh something else, like a surgical tool. So when we look at these intersections, we have better mitigation, we have a better chance to pivot. And at early stage, that's the best you can do, you know, just be ready to pivot, sort of a thing. Then uh the other companies in our portfolio, one is a wearable device, all are clinical, by the way, clinical applications. We are not investing in consumer space, although the technology is solid enough that they can still do a consumer variant or version of it, but we are looking primarily for the non-consumer side, like meaning a clinical grade side, meaning FDA approval and so on. Um and uh so the first one was uh NeuroEM, Alzheimer's play, uh treating Alzheimer's essentially again, hand waving it, and not trying to be technically accurate here, but yeah, you know, Alzheimer's where everybody knows now there's the amyloid beta and the tau proteins, just breaking it down and flushing it in some capacity, some way is is has shown uh uh to be efficacious. You slow down Alzheimer's first, let's say then then treating and then reversal is is the next thing altogether. So that's one. The other one is uh ADHD autism wearable again. Uh oh, sorry about that. Yeah, what I really like about this, the company name is called PigPug, PigPug Health. And uh you know, the story here that is very inspiring is the founder, uh Vital, uh very gem of a guy. Uh he narrates his personal story and he says, Look, I am on the spectrum of ADHD and autism myself. And as a kid, I had these these traumatic stories. And even now, by the way, the other day I just shared an image with him, not knowing that there was there was going to be a trigger response, a child with with like some wet electrodes placed, and he was just not able to take it. He's like, No, no, just take it out, take it out. Uh and so I was like, Okay, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize, and so on. But but he used that experience, that the traumatic experience that he had, knowing that his parents were not trying to hurt him, but they were just there to try to help this child. So, how? Because we need to know what's going on. So they were plugging these veg electrodes to measure the brain activity, EEGs, and then see what the medication is doing, perhaps, and you know, what the test scores are and so on. But it was a very clunky setup. And so Vitaly said, nothing doing. I want to make sure that kids are not afraid of their doctors, parents don't have to suffer their child crying and flailing. And also, let's not let's not even ignore the fact that clinicians don't like children crying. Well, who likes to hear children crying? Nobody Yeah, and so exactly, and so nobody in their right minds would appreciate or uh or be okay with it. So why not change the experience? So that's what Pigbug is doing. They have a configurable wearable, like a headset. Just imagine this same thing, similar form factor with configurable electrodes, because we know and it's a well-researched area, neurofeedback is established as a practice uh and accepted as a practice. So clinicians are already doing that. Plasticity, the brain's plasticity, neuroplasticity is a known thing. Uh again, uh, even more so for the for children eight and below. It's even more powerful to leverage that. And so by putting these configurable electrodes, one, you're measuring the brain activity when the child is performing tests, memory, attention, game, this, that. And so now the clinician is able to get this uh child psychiatrist or uh neurofeedback uh specialist is able to see how the brain is performing, actually doing signals, right? So objective biomarkers. Then uh it may not even need it may not even be to replace pharmaceutical solutions because for ADHD you still have to take some sort of medication, right? And so maybe it's not to completely get rid of it, maybe it's not uh in opposition of the pharmaceutical solution. But the practitioner now has real insightful data and can be non empirical but very precise with the dosage and the medication. And therefore. Or make sure that there is no such resistance to the dosage at this point. So you have to keep on doing this.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

So this is a new biomarkers, basically. New new biomarkers.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

No, EG is already established, right? So that is not. But but providing this in a form factor that is real-time shareable, and you don't have to lug the child to the clinic. The child is in the comfort of their own uh its own house doing things, right? So and can move around. The content is also evolving, so it's not boring, same memory test, like Vitali was recounting. Like he would be like, Oh, I'm bored of this. I've already done this last week, right? So what else do I do? But you know, so now evolving tests, giving different variants and flavors, keep the kids engaged. So the drop-off is reduced. Once the drop-off is reduced, then there's a lot of solutions, a lot of things that can be done, right? Um and so this is why we like pig bug. And uh, you know, they're they're much earlier uh off the four companies that we've invested, they're much earlier in the stages. But that's an impactful one for me to make happen. And so um uh, you know, I often talk about who else might be interested in investing in that, or which euro feedback practitioner or child psychiatrist may be interested in adopting that technology and and and working. So we've actually gone as far as even Australia and Dubai, and there are a few folks lined up saying, hey, ship us these devices and we use Guess what?

SPEAKER_03 45:23

I have a friend who's a child psychiatrist in uh Water Creek.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Excellent. So I'll hook you up. Yeah, that would be wonderful. Italian would be super thrilled. Yeah. Uh so that's the other one, and then we talked about psionic already. Uh, Madison Scientific is another one, it's a game changer too. They're making a smart shunt for hydrocephalus patients. Uh hydrocephalus, for those who are not familiar with this, there's you know, our brain, our our skull inside has brain, obviously, but there's also this cushioning liquid, which is not only for cushion, but it also circulates nutrients and takes out toxics, uh toxic elements that are produced and it flushes it down the lymphatic system, basically basically lymphatic, but but in the sleep and brain-related uh terminology, it's called lymphatic, and it just drains it down the uh the spine, so through cerebrospinal fluid. Simple mechanism, great, but in some cases that fluid starts building up in the brain, uh and so or in in the in the I guess in the cranium, and so then therefore uh it starts giving this headache sort of sensation. Um and then for a small percentage of population, if not intervened uh within a few hours, they may even die, especially early stages in life. And so uh for me, it didn't even have to be a massive market, but for the small market, the game changer here is one, that they don't have to live with this fear of like, oh, I'm playing on the I'm playing soccer here and I have this headache. I don't know if it's because I didn't drink enough water or if it's because of this. Uh, but now um you know, with the smart shunt, it helps assist in measuring the pressure every so often, and then help drain out only enough uh liquid to bring the pressure down to normal. Whereas the existing solutions are just dumb. They just just drain it out.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

Why don't right, exactly. I mean, I've looked at existing solutions as a neuroradiologist for decades, and why don't they create a smart v shunt sensor to just you know real-time adjust? I don't understand. So that's medicine scientific right there.

unknown 47:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

It's like it shouldn't be, it's not science-fi, it's not sci-fi, it's actually very intuitive. Why didn't someone just invent that? So that's great to narrow exist it.

Selling Long Timelines To LPs

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah. Well, that's the thing. So they the the good part here is our neurosurgeon advisor, Dr. Grant, uh knows of this company. He said when he looked at it like a few years ago, it was a little too big for his liking. Uh, but now the most recent one, they've uh they're making some solid progress, by the way. Right. So so we're very uh pumped up about two companies in our portfolio at this point, at least, like in terms of how close they are to potentially commercialize or exit even. Yeah. Uh not to say the impact of all of these four companies.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Yeah, you know, the the space, first of all, the space that you're in so far, right? I mean I'm I'm not saying you're not gonna go into digital health and that kind of thing, but you're basically in biotech and med tech, and you don't want 510K. You want the heart problems, you want to solve the heart problem. These, um, yes, they can make a lot of money, but the the time duration is kind of unpredictable and it could be very long. So, how do you address that concern to your LPs, for example?

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Yeah, that does come up. So there are a few things that uh can can be missed, right? So at a broad stroke, yes, all of these take time. But note that the kind of companies that we're looking for have a deep tech mode. What I mean by that is this. So uh I think all of these four companies, at least three of them, have had significant number of years of university incubation. The research has come through some of that. So let's let's take psionic. Something around 2012, 13 is when they were incorporated, maybe 14, I forget. The idea started, the research started in 2012. That's how Joanna knows uh uh my other advisor knows uh Adil, right? Uh and so it started then, right? So from a company's point of view, it is 14 years. From my angel investment point of view, it's only been five years. And from uh the fund, it has only been a year. Oh, so I'm sorry, not even a year. This is like we invested in September, right? So yeah, it's like a few months, right? Less than uh six months. Yeah, exactly. So let's say let's say it even takes another five years for some sort of exit, right? Because again, of the strong intersection with industrial robotics, there's a chance to do that very well. I love it. I'm so excited for the future of this company. Yeah. And so let's say five. For the company, it would have still been close to 20 years, 21 years, right? But for an angel investor like me, it was 10 years, and for the fund, it was just five years. That's not a bad thing. Same thing. Uh, you look at Madison Scientific, for example. They've been there since 2018, I believe, uh university funded research. But uh, this is the part that people don't see, and this is the part that I explain to them and it makes sense to them. Because on the other hand, Jenny, you and I, we can we can say at the end of this podcast, we're like, hey, you know what? We have uh a digital health uh product that we can we can start, we can launch. Guess what? With software play, AI is commoditized already. We can literally start with like a 20,000 investment between ourselves, maybe okay, fine, maybe 50,000 can the infrastructure cost, we can get a startup up and running, and we can get some trial uh like uh prototype working and so on. The barrier to entry is low, is can work both ways. It is also because the barrier to entry is so low, anyone can start. My cat and my dog can start a company now, right? So then is it truly an advantage to then not be in the deep tech space? It's not. In my opinion, actually, this is better because we can we can go unrushed into these opportunities, wet out the deep technology, see the evidence that, like, yeah, psionic since 2012, uh NeuroEN since 2015, they've been there, right? Um and the eventual, yes, D20, maybe 15 years later, but from a typical VC early stage investment side, these companies have already had research grants coming in, NIH, NSF, uh local city grants, and so on. And they have incubation spaces often for free or like for some very nominal fee. So they leverage all of that, and the cost to fundraise is not as high when they come out to first uh raise from VCs or angels. That is something that is not very obvious to people, and that's what I explained to them.

Where Neurotech Funding Goes Next

SPEAKER_03 51:52

Yeah. No, I I totally agree. And now I am also seeing quite a few companies that's you know, after 10 years of sometimes European commissioner funding or university non-diluting funding. And almost I feel like that's that's one of the deep risk things I should look at as a filter for these deep tech companies. Um now we have only 10 minutes left for this podcast, and I feel like we have a longer conversation to really really finish everything, but I don't want to miss this. Um, so I'm gonna move on to the the next category of uh conversation is about your vision for the field. Um what do you think the direction? You know, this year in JP Morgan, for whatever reason, neurotech subtly is like the thing. I don't know. It's it's like it's like what just changed? I mean, it's not like we didn't have Alzheimer's last year. Um, why did suddenly things change this year? So I'd love to just hear about your thought on what the trend of the technology is going at and also the funding landscape.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

To speak about that, I think I want to bring up another analogy, um, not very far in the past. So if you talked about AI in the years 2016 through 2018, 19, maybe even 2020, uh, you uh would often uh hear like, oh yeah, it's going on some research, oh this framework, this library is not going well, this software is not so good, and so on. But it seemed very research. It didn't seem like it was it was very uh something actionable. And then what happened in 2022? Not only did AI become easily accessible, but now, 2025, everything is AI because AI is commoditized. And so the switch and the transition happened so quick, people didn't even realize. But now is AI, pure AI, or some of these things the best way to invest? No, the best money was made by those who invested in AI in the years 2016, 2018, maybe even before. And then at 2022, they see this huge value. Nvidia, for example. Anyone invested in NVIDIA pre to post, oh huge. Now you go and start clamoring for Nvidia stocks, you're not gonna make so much of returns. I think Neurotech is exactly that for us. Uh, because again, no, just by what you said, even at JPM, previous years there were probably murmurs. Maybe the term was not even official at that time, right? And so these take time to build. But once it's built, two things can happen. One, everybody starts understanding this and they want to get in. Now, the good part here for VCs like me is that there is a deterrent, is the barrier is higher. So either these are going to be just follow-on VCs who are like, hey, you know what, I out of our portfolio, we invest in all these sectors and we'll do this some portion into Neurotech, and they have to follow somebody like us, right? Uh, but because we have the specialist uh focus, we can be exclusively on this and can enable things. But the way we see this is uh neurotech will be more easily understood by people. And we as a fund are doing exactly that as well to our efforts. Not only are we fundraising by asking people, hey, come invest in this next uh disruptive technology, which not just for the disruption. I told you, right? Like this is all the brain, everything, everything about our body can can be touched by Neurotech. Therefore, the market is everyone on this planet at this point, even animals. Let's not even just talk about it. Whoever has a brain. That's whoever has a brain. Exactly. And so it's like a huge, even for pet market, I I I think. Yeah, whatever has a brain. So so with that, maybe just ignoring something that is a huge market uh as an opportunity, as an investment opportunity, and the impact potential. And so I think we should take this more seriously. And you know, for LPs, this is what what I tell them. Like, yeah, this is where you want to be. Three to five years down the line, almost everything is neurotech. That is probably not the best time to approach uh or or we'll still find some important uh innovations, right? So it's always a case of advancing technology further and further and further. But by that time, more people will start knowing about this to get into this, right? Like now the barrier is still high. So that's why we feel like we are in a good spot. And that's pretty much the pitch for Neurotech.

Regenerative Farming And Academia To Industry

SPEAKER_03 56:02

Yeah, there's a first mover advantage for sure. Yeah. Um, all right, we have like a couple of minutes left. I just um I don't want to miss this portion, which is to get to know the human side of you we're on. Um because beyond just being a venture capitalist, you have a lot of other interests, including regenerative farming, which is something I've never heard of until now. Uh that probably says more about me than anything else. And um also you were on some nonprofit organization. Love to just hear a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

I'm gonna plug in the factory. So uh yeah, so look, uh, as a person, like I said, I take interest in a lot of things. So regenerative, so what I mean by that is especially on the on the on the areas that I feel like I want to work and contribute, it's either through investment or working for a company or heck, starting my own company, or putting together a not-for-profit, something or the other, but I can make some change, when I can I can make things happen. So uh if you look at it, the commonality is still there about the impact, right? Eurotech, everybody. Same with climate and farming. We eat food. So we need we need non-pesticide solutions and non-solutions which are not destroying the land as we're trying to build this mono monocrop culture. So I got passionate. I I I I read these things, I see how I can try to help instead of sitting at home and be like, oh, I wish there are solutions. I start understanding it with the idea that maybe I can solve it somehow. So at any given point, there are these threads. So I'm still uh I'm still very passionate about regenerative, regenerative farming. I went and bought a piece of land in Arizona, uh 24 acres, and I someday hope to set up again with some partners who can also co-invest, set up some eco-uh tourism meets, uh, regenerative farming, stewardship kind of a concept where people understand, they see it, and they see like, oh wow, this is why we should be not digging up soil. This is why we should uh you know completely get rid of the pesticides, for example, because it's a system. And so that essentially is it. Well, look at problems that that inspire me and uh to I mean to go find solutions. So regenerative farming is one of them. Uh, not-for-profit, same thing. Like the the impact, the the idea there for Aquinas Institute, which is the not-for-profit institution I'm talking about. The idea is academicians stuck in academia, researchers stuck there, not knowing that there is a world where they can bring their ideas to fruition, industry, just as a regular company, maybe not even venture grade, but just get it out. And so that's the broad level mission of this uh Aculus Institute, and that's why I'm happy to be part of it and to see how I how we can inspire people to take the next step in their work and not just abandon it and gather, let the IP gather dust.

Media Habits Moats And Closing

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Yeah, well, if you need any farming hands, I could offer my help when you when you're ready and uh set up. Uh and I'm also happy to help you with your other uh nonprofit goals because we actually have very similar goals as well, is to bridge the gap between academia and industry. Um now finally, um, what are your media digest habits that you think are good for founders, entrepreneurs, uh, or investors?

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Generally speaking, yeah, you you want to learn as much as you can. Uh, not everything you'll retain, but some things stick to you as interesting. Uh, you know, uh what moves some people is different from what moves other people. Uh so pick your pick. But in those fields, uh, you know, definitely keep learning because things are moving very fast these days. Like AI is just completely upending a lot of assumptions and processes. And so uh that's one. But a meta-level on that is founders who are specifically looking to AI to say, I want to solve the problem using AI. You also have to understand that, like I said, my cat and my dog can also do it now these days. And so, really, are you doing something so disruptive that nobody else has thought of? So your moat is no longer going to be like, oh, I have a unique algorithm or oh, I have data. Like, even data, like hundreds of people claim that they have data. Think beyond that. Uh, your moat is gonna be your execution speed, your moat is gonna be your partnerships, and you can definitely jump into the deep end of the pool like I've done. But look out, keep an eye out for where your next lifeguard is, and so on and so forth. Because the ride is gonna get very bumpy, and just don't go in so blind that assuming that, oh, I'm the only one to think of this idea. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

This this this reminds me, I'm sorry, this reminds me of a famous quote from Harry Potter: constant vigilance.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yes. Yes. Yes, I mean I think generally uh you do well to to do keep that way, especially if you're a founder, right? Because you are at the risk-taking position. If you're a follower, then you know it's fine. But even then, I would say this is not the time to be a completely passive.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

There is an argument. Non-vigilant as well. It's not it's not completely passive. Well, thank you so much for this interview, Warren. This is very insightful. And uh I will add your contact information if you're willing to share, or any other way that we can our audience can reach out to you for um, you know, to discuss any future investment or co-investment. Um, I will share uh that information in our show notes. And I am certain we're gonna have another conversation some sometime in the future to further discuss Neurotech. This is such an exciting field. So thank you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Thank you for the insightful questions. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

Likewise. Thank you. Bye-bye.