Dictator and thug leader of ex Soviet Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko has arrested tens of thousands of his own citizens protesting the results of last years Presidential election, which by all accounts he lost.
Now he has highjacked a plane, to arrest a journalist who helped organize protests against him.
Europe is outraged and has banned flights over Belarus and threatened to tighten sanctions.
On this Back Story Dana Lewis talks to Andrei Sannikov, who fled Belarus after he was jailed and tortured for opposing Lukashenko, and he thinks the brutal dictator will have to step down.
And journalist and author Luke Harding who says it's hard to predict, but he too won't rule out an implosion in Belarus and removal of Lukashenko.
Dictator and thug leader of ex Soviet Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko has arrested tens of thousands of his own citizens protesting the results of last years Presidential election, which by all accounts he lost.
Now he has highjacked a plane, to arrest a journalist who helped organize protests against him.
Europe is outraged and has banned flights over Belarus and threatened to tighten sanctions.
On this Back Story Dana Lewis talks to Andrei Sannikov, who fled Belarus after he was jailed and tortured for opposing Lukashenko, and he thinks the brutal dictator will have to step down.
And journalist and author Luke Harding who says it's hard to predict, but he too won't rule out an implosion in Belarus and removal of Lukashenko.
And the hijacking of the place. Plane is also a deliberate and unnecessary triggering of a safety emergency. It is, it is, it has involved an unjustified intervention of a military aircraft. The air navigation service was misused to aid the state in taking control of an EU aircraft and Belarus used its control over its airspace. In order to perpetrate a state hijacking, therefore the safety and security of flights through Belarus, airspace can no longer be trusted. And the council will adopt measures to ban over flies of the ERs space and to deny access to airports, to EU airports, to Belarus, airplanes, Homan, potassium, which must be released immediately.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 3:That was European commission, president Ursula vendor lay in on actions against Belarus I everyone, and welcome to another edition of backstory. I'm Dana Lewis, an election in Belarus, which neighbors Russia took place in August of 2020 with falsified results. People took to the streets to protest since then president Aleksander Lucas Shenko is arrested tens of thousands. His security forces have systematically beaten, many detained, forced opposition leaders to flee the country or be jail journalists, lawyers sentenced to prison term and the number of people that died in custody at least 10 say human rights groups, Bella Russian president Lucas Shanko has the ADESA city to send a MIG 29 aircraft after a Ryan air passenger flight en route from Athens Greece to Vilnius Lithuania.
Speaker 4:The airplane is
Speaker 3:Intercepted over Belarus, forced to land a journalist and dissident. Roman proto Savage is taken into custody by Belorussian authorities while still onboard the grounded plane
Speaker 4:On this backstory. How to deal with Lucas Shenko okay. Andre Santa Claus is the former deputy foreign minister of Bellaruse. He was arrested by the Lucas Schenkel regime after he ran for president and demonstrated against the election results. And he was in prison for Andre, I believe 16.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Correct.
Speaker 4:Can you give me some idea of what Roman proto Savage is facing right now? Is he in grave danger?
Speaker 5:He is in a really great danger. Uh, yesterday I was asked the same question and I kind of said that they will probably release the video of him under duress. And he'll say some things, but I personally was relieved to see him alive because you know, the KGB is known for making people disappear several days and several weeks, especially after we had the tragic death of our, um, good, uh, activist and the Patriot, uh, Vito Shorrock in the school of Pinole cold calling in three, four days ago. And the reason was reported the, uh, heart disease. And, uh, but, but his wife said he never had any problems with his heart. So after that, it was clear that it was clear before, but the they're capable of killing people and they're killing people. And when Roman disappeared, the, I personally, uh, uh, what, uh, w w will be happening to him. And, uh, uh, we saw came alive, uh, yesterday, but it doesn't mean, uh, that he is safe and not in danger today.
Speaker 4:He looked like he may have been roughed up or beaten already. I mean, he certainly, he looked like that was a hostage video.
Speaker 5:Absolutely. And the, you know, it is kind of strange that they're releasing such videos. It's not the first one. And there were many others to show that people are really under duress and, uh, nobody pays attention to what they're saying. They could say that they are, I don't know, spice or terrorists or whatever. Nobody pays attention. Everybody is looking how they look and, uh, what, what, what is going on with them. So, and yesterday was not the exception because, uh, you know, we, we saw him on this Korean, but we saw the, uh, also the signs of buildings of his forehead, for example. And, uh, although he, well, he did behave quite, uh, uh, let's say, in control of himself, but what he was saying was, and how he was saying, especially
Speaker 4:You've been interrogated, you've been imprisoned by this regime.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And his girlfriend is now they're in different places. He is in, uh, uh, the, uh, prison number one in, in Minsk, which is interior ministry prison. I was there, I know what this is the oldest prison in, in Belarus. And some very famous people were there, including, I believe, uh, Pilsudski at some point, uh, and, uh, when he was, uh, transferred from prison to prison and, uh, she is in the so-called center for the, uh, uh, offenders, uh, in, uh, famous, uh, uh, facility on, uh, Christina street.
Speaker 4:What will they be doing to him right now? The KGB is carrying out the interrogation, the interrogation for what the answers are obvious. Yes. He's a journalist. Yes. He wrote opposition views on the regime and believing that the election was stolen in August. What is the point of an interrogation? What do they get?
Speaker 5:They are trying to get him, uh, he is accused of terrorism and he was on the wanted list for terrorism, which is stupid to, which is clear that it is fabricated. And, uh, he is now accused. He actually, he was smart enough even after the arrest, not to say that, uh, his confessing or anything, he said, I'm cooperating, uh, with the delegators on the issues of the maths, uh, this disorders, uh, which I was taking part in, in preparation. So he didn't admit anything serious and everybody knows the, that he is a generalist. And I think journalistic communities very vocal at this moment to try, uh, demanding his release and, uh, warning against any, any kind of torture and abuse against him. So what they will do, they will try to get some confessions from him because they failed big time, several on several occasions, for example, they arrested the Moscow. Again, you see with the help of, uh, FSB, uh, they're arrested most unlikely people and accused them and charge them with, uh, plotting against[inaudible] most unlikely because it was a laughing stock, uh, not the laughing so that they were arrested, but the laughing stock of the scenario that a local chef playwrights wrote for him, that was really funny to, to imagine that these people were applauding against the[inaudible].
Speaker 4:Okay. I mean, you know, I I'm a journalist. Yes. We wrote against the regime. Yes. We helped organize some demonstrations. Yes. When Lucas Shenko started to shut down all of the media in the country, uh, you know, this young man went on on telegram, um, other encrypted, uh, digital media services to get the word out, to publish videos of people being beaten. Okay. Yes, yes. Yes. Where does that leave? Lucas Schenkel, is that worth hijacking a plane for,
Speaker 5:Uh, for, in his kind of full logic? Yes. He wants to show that, uh, he's still in control and he was from Ireland. He is, uh, reaching out far beyond the lotteries, but actually he's, uh, really, uh, make, uh, his situation even worse, not only his situation, but, uh, his people who are still loyal to him or who are still, uh, saying that they're loyal to him because in one with one, uh, Jewish with one operation, very clumsy operation hero in the whole industry to our rescue hero in the airline in gelada was the, the Mo monopolies for trafficking. So, uh, and among other things, among other things, uh, the fact that he proven himself to be a terrorist of the state, uh, to, uh, organize state sponsored terrorism, uh, Paris kidnapping, and although in danger of people in Europe. So I think that, that in his logic, he thinks that this is a good scenario, but he, he keeps going further and further down. And he is now in the obese that he will never climb out again. Never. So now we have to, uh, proceed from this because some people still think that Lucas Shanker could be a reborn as Phoenix. Now, he's, he's done, he's finished, he's controlling and small group of people. Yes. Presumably the Fox, they, uh, really people without any, uh, moral, without any, uh, any human feelings, but, uh, they are very small group.
Speaker 4:So this is really my question to you because now Europe is trying to navigate this with its own problems in the European union, um, countries like Victor or battens hungry, uh, who kind of want to walk a line between the east and the west and, and still stay close to Russia. And so they have, they have their own difficulties, but when you talk about using carrot and the stick, are we way past the carrot stage because Lucas Shenko, um, in terms of red lines with European values has tortured. People, people have died in custody. Um, I mean, he is traumatized the entire country. So if you move away from any kind of carrot back, um, where does that leave you with Luca Shanko? He is becoming more and more isolated. Some people say a little crazy. Um, if you will, the sanctions will the no fly zone accomplish anything.
Speaker 5:Well, you mentioned orbit, it's quite indicative that yesterday they discussed the sanctions, the measures, uh, connected with these forced Landia Ryan air flight. And I didn't hear any objection from Hungary, although it used to be, uh, the country that, uh, both sanctions again, any other country. And I didn't see here in objections from any other, uh, uh, big countries or small countries that way, usually on the list of those who doubted the effectiveness of sanctions that Europe never used keratin sticks. I would say that they used carrots that were eaten by location, who you sticks against us, that, that how went, because there were never any meaningful sanctions, those visa restrictions, travel restrictions were not census today. I think that they are father realized, and I was very happy to hear the words in the statement of, uh, uh, senators and Congressman, uh, of the United States that, uh, local Shanka is the danger to the international security. It is not only the, the rogue dictator that is hurting us in bureaus, because before it was taken, like, you know, but it's a humanitarian problem. You see just a couple of political prisoners and couple of people are in a paper's clothes. Doesn't matter. We still have to think about our business with not only with blood was, but with Russia, Belarus, even about our smuggling, our goods to Russia, Russia, embargoed food products from Europe. But now I hear the different language and I hope that it will be an understanding how to proceed. I think that the pressure should be put on first of all, release of political prisoners, because it is morally absolutely justified to take any measures to save people lives, especially when we have more than 10 cases of reported deaths of protestors and no death in prisoners. We don't know how many deaths we, we, we are talking about during the protests and the in prison. So it is absolutely justified, probably legal, moral points of view, to put as much press as possible until all the people who are there behind bars for political reasons are released
Speaker 4:Possible. But in what form, what do you want to see happen now?
Speaker 5:Economic sanctions trade sanctions stops with the system or working on the terrorist,[inaudible] stop, uh, uh, pushing for, for stronger measures for the private companies like, you know, Yara Norwegian company, they are playing very cynical game. They, they making some statements that they do care about the human rights and the situation of workers in the largest production of[inaudible] and third in the world, I believe. And, uh, but at the same time, they are not doing anything to help the people. And they re concluded the contract. When they, uh, had all four strike committee, he was arrested, he was arrested for for many days. Now he's in prison and not a lot has been fired. So private companies should join the efforts. And then the, the economy is collapsing, you know, and, uh, look, uh, Shanka is now not, as I said, not the control of the economy. You cannot do anything. He couldn't do anything for the economy for 27 years almost because he relied mostly on the, you know, on the subsidies from Russia, both in terms of money and in terms of cheap oil, uh, I guess, uh, all the territory, the delivery or their daughters, which is that result. But a lot,
Speaker 4:One of the other people would say, this is my last question to you. Aren't we just helping Putin. We are pushing,[inaudible] waiting arms of president Bush.
Speaker 5:[inaudible], you know, uh, it's not other than look at Shameka mate, uh, absolutely dependable or rush, which really undermines our sovereignty, our independence. Believe me. I don't want even to think in this terms, because I want to think in terms of normal relations between the Russian dorms, even if[inaudible] against it, I can tell that we can deal with Putin. Uh, no matter what kind of, uh, with, with Russia, with Putin after OCA chef, and we will be more reliable because we simply cannot go anywhere. We cannot move to some, uh, warm sea to, uh, reestablish biller was there. But we were about to leave with Russia is our neighbor with European union, as our neighbor with Ukraine as our neighbor. And we have to take care of all this neighborhood problems. So look, SMT is creating problems for us, for Russia and, and for, for, for Europe and for Ukraine, uh, we can solve the problems. I mean, we, we, by we, I can tell you that the people, because enemy number one focus is not, it's not, it's none of their position is burdensome people. That's the enemy number one, and he has to realize it and step down,
Speaker 4:Andre Seneca, always a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you, Luke Harding is the writer for the guardian newspaper. He's an expert on Russia and he's written several books, including mafia, state, and shuttle state, his new book. Hi Luke, correct. Grace, be back with you, your opening comment on this hijacking of a civilian airliner between two EU nations between two NATO nations by Belarus. Uh, you know, it's, I couldn't come up with a, a more crazy opening chapter for a fiction novel.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean, I mean, beriberi is really is a chunk of the Soviet union dropped into our digitized 21st century world where you can have plane hijackings, you can have standard like confessions by, by people you've literally plugs out of the air. Um, and Y you have a, really a kind of old school, um, dictator who is behaving not only with impunity, but actually like a sort of sociopath, um, who is determined to stamp that on independent media. I mean, what happened this week and been less noticed is that the largest non-state media Bellaruse, um, a website called, called toot B Y um, has been shut down. And his last three journalists who have not been arrested were arrested. Um, and so this is a kind of brutal regime. It's extremely thuggish you'll note that the KGB in batteries never bothered to change his name. It's still the KGB. Um, and it's a police state where more than 32,000 people have been arrested since last August protest against that extended Lukashenko, who, who, by the way, has been a powerful, almost 27 years, um, and who, who for sure, regular summers election. Um, and this is a big problem. It's not just a domestic problem for better reasons who wants a kind of more democratic Purell state. It's a problem for the international community, for the U S uh, uh, for the European union as to what they do about what is in essence, a rogue regime. It's
Speaker 4:Been a problem for a long time, and people have been calling on the EU, come on, get it together. That the longer you take to push back against Belarus and, and, uh, in Russia and what Putin's doing, uh, the worse it will get, was this a wake up call?
Speaker 5:I mean, yeah, for those who didn't get the memo, it was a wake up call. And I think what's interesting is really the sort of foreign policy foreign policy change froze up because for, you know, for decades now, look as shank has been playing off the west against Russia, Russia against the west. Um, and he's been trying to kind of ring concessions from both what one day he tells that way the other day he tells that way. And now after this astonishing, uh, and dark act, um, the, the west has gone as, as a partner, as an interlocutor. So he's just half with Russia, but, you know, the, the problem is that, that, uh, Vladimir Putin really, he doesn't like left Shanko at all. I mean, I think he thinks he's a, he's a clumsy, crude, um, dumb, um, sort of, you know, minor leader, but the, the, the, the, the precedent of a sort of peaceful transfer of patch, a more pro Western pro-American governments and Belarus, it's just not something that he can accept and therefore pushing re through reasons of strategy that then the love is, is backing like a Schenker, which means it's going to be extremely hard to dislodge. Uh, I mean, to the Biden administration are actually going to think, need to think quite hard about what they do not least because Joe Biden, American president is meeting flat. And my approach in Russian president engineer's were on June the 16th. Um, why Biden fails, you know, person needs about actual summaries. I, I, I don't know, uh,
Speaker 4:Right, because they stopped holding summits a long time ago. And then I see the, you know, the former American ambassador Mike McFaul was, was, uh, you know, on Twitter saying something to the effect. There's no point in having a meeting list, there are deliverables. It doesn't seem like there are any deliverables and Belarus just makes it more complicated.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I mean, I agree. And the thing is that it looks to me, I mean, it's, it's still a little early, uh, for, for this administration, but it looks to me as if the, the Biden people are going back to the kind of a bomber doctrine, um, of what you might kind of call naive pragmatism. That is good to talk that, that if you, if you listen and engage with the other side, maybe you can, you can reach a kind of mutual solution. And I think it's a miss analysis of the situation, which is that essentially, you know, a person is not interested in mutual solutions. Win-wins he has a kind of a priori KGB view of the world where, where Russia is pitted eternally against America and the west, and is involved in, uh, essentially what is a war, you know, sometimes with military dimension sometimes more on official involving cyber or espionage and so on, um, that that has no end. And actually what the, uh, the game Biden should be playing is containment. It's it's George candidates. It's the long telegram, it's, it's the cold war. Um, and I said, oh, well, you can call it Neo contaminants. If you like, basically making it clear to our boots that there will be, um, counterforce, there'll be a hard reaction, um, painful economic sanctions, maybe kicking restaurant of the swift system, you know, banning oligarchs, clamping down on their assets and their homes and so on, uh, unless he stops doing these kinds of things. And at the moment, I don't quite sense, uh, appetite from the Biden ministration for, for that kind of course. Yeah. Yeah. I
Speaker 4:Know. I mean, he has said that they will take action, seen an unseen. Uh, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, but in terms of Belarus, I mean, yes. Look, Shanko is now back in the arms of Vladimir Putin, dangerous place to be, because they've always talked about swallowing Belarus back up again, and Lucas Shenko at a certain point becomes, uh, a very high risk, uh, political key chain for Putin. And, you know, he may, he may want to get rid of Lucas Shenko, uh, and Belarus by itself playing out the way it is. There's a question in here loop the way it's playing out. Um, it endangers Russia. It threatens the, what, what Putin is trying to do to keep things calm and nice pretend democracy inside of Russia. I mean, at a certain certain point about a roof just becomes more and more high risk to Putin. Doesn't it?
Speaker 5:I, I'm not, I'm not sure it's high risk. I think it's more of a problem of it becomes a, a growing bill, uh, because obviously the sanctions against Bellaruse, depending on what they are, whether they hit the petrochemicals industry, where they had kind of Belarus and oligarchs, and there are fewer of those that kind of Russian counterparts. I mean, it's Russia, that's going to have to pick up the tab. So that's a headache, but also better. Bellaruse like Ukraine is central to, to the, the sort of the kind of Kremlin and nation of Russia as a great power. It really speeds better. Ru says it's territory to dispose of how it likes. And for years that there has been, when I was at the Moscow a decade ago, there was talk of a, kind of a union or CLA closer. But as the Lance between the two where in essence rush would gobble batteries up was sort of ETS.
Speaker 4:I would give Putin an excuse to change the constitution, which would give him another term and another term, but he's yeah.
Speaker 5:But yeah, I mean, you've done that anyway. He's effectively, you know, fully legitimized his rule for a thousand years, like a fairer, I mean, until 2034, by Irish time, he'll be in his eighties and you, and I will probably be on the Zimmer frames, you know, or in a kind of, you know, retirement homes. So, um, but, but, but yeah, I mean, you know, batteries is a kind of playground for, for, for Russia and Loki. Shanko is a kind of unloved, but, but necessary part of that, of that project. All right. How
Speaker 4:Does this end, do you want to make a prediction? Do you think that, uh, Lucas Shingo has long to live in, in terms of being the president or the ex president there, and we'll we'll rush, uh, slowly just swallow up, got a anyway,
Speaker 5:I, I mean, the thing is, you know, by nature, by temperament, I philosophically I'm an optimist. And the problem is with all of these scenarios, you, you, you have a, uh, kind of Hollywood script running in your head that despite, you know, suffering and travail and turmoil, the good guys will win that they will, that they will take over, but, but unfortunately in the post-Soviet world and, and indeed in much of the world, that, that doesn't really happen. And you'd have my fear is that with Putin, that that means a Looker Shanker will, will stay. And he's pretty successfully repressed, arrested, intimidated, um, much of the population. And now with what he did on Sunday, he's also has had a chilling effect for, for dissidents critics of the regime moving abroad. So, so my, my fear is that he will carry on, but also I think, I think he's personally hated. I think he cannot regain legitimacy in his own country. And, and it's possible that that sooner or later that the better Bruce will Corinne towards some kind of explosion,
Speaker 4:Luke Harding. Great to talk to you. Thanks so much, Luke. Thank you. And that's
Speaker 3:Another edition of backstory on Belarus for almost a year. Baltic countries have been warning Europe, get tough with Lucas Shenko or risk a challenge by Bela Reuss and Russia to freedoms. If the hijacking of an airliner two EU countries between two NATO countries, isn't a wake up call. I don't know what is I'm Dana Lewis. Thanks for listening. Subscribe to backstory. And I'll talk to you again soon.[inaudible].