In this Back Story both Host Dana Lewis and his guest, Journalist Peter Baker were among the first to cross into Afghanistan after 9/11, 20 years ago.
And three U.S. army vets talk about the mission, coming home, and how the collapse of Afghanistan is effecting those who fought the war, more than 800 thousand Americans.
In this Back Story both Host Dana Lewis and his guest, Journalist Peter Baker were among the first to cross into Afghanistan after 9/11, 20 years ago.
And three U.S. army vets talk about the mission, coming home, and how the collapse of Afghanistan is effecting those who fought the war, more than 800 thousand Americans.
Hi everyone. And welcome to another edition of backstory. I'm Dana Lewis again this week, Afghanistan, because as we speak us forces are trying to take out stranded Americans as the Taliban is now running the country. And who would have thought in 2001, the invasion of Afghanistan seemed justified. America had been attacked by Al Qaeda and the plot to fly planes into the world. Trade center was hatched in those dusty Sen blowing training camps. Under Taliban rule, the mission of NATO countries became kill or capture the terrorists eliminate Taliban rule in nation build. So Afghanistan could stand on its own for a while. It seemed to go right before it went so wrong. And the American departure has been a train wreck, leaving us forces, holding a thin patch of turf at Kabul airport. The Taliban is back in power and Americans and their allies are asking, was it worth it, any of it in a moment, us army veterans, I met as a journalist traveling in some of the most remote areas of Afghanistan as they fought the Taliban. But first the New York times, chief correspondent in Washington, and a friend Peter Baker.
Speaker 2:All right. I'm joined by Peter Baker. Uh, Peter, great to talk to you. Great to talk to you. So you and I were Moscow based in 2001. I was with NBC with the Washington post and we were among the first to immediately get down to Tajikistan and then cross into a dentist. Yeah. Can, could you imagine a more surreal ending to this 20 year story then American troops holding a sliver of ground on the edge of Kabul, asking the Taliban, if they can still keep some kind of humanitarian corridor open so they can get people evacuated from there and the president of the United States asking the Taliban now, um, could they possibly extend the, the August 31st deadline if he, if he makes that request, but he's being urged to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Now the whole thing is very surreal. I started by saying that when we went in you and I way back then 20 years ago, you knew what you were doing and the differences that, uh, I was a complete amateur, but it was a hell of an experience to see Afghanistan. And those days after nine 11 to see a place that had been ravaged by war and civil war and the Taliban repression for all of those years. And it was a different moment. We thought there was something possible then. And of course, within a very short amount of time, the fell we would never have imagined, then we would see the scene that we're seeing today. You know, 20 years later, the Americans essentially driven out, uh, in failure, uh, the Taliban flag over the presidential palace, as you say, the CIA director, uh, flying into Kabul basically to beg permission from the Taliban to let us stay a little longer, just to get our people out and get our Afghan allies out instead, a remarkable, you know, ending to a 20 year, uh, venture that obviously is a black mark on, on America's place in history. And I, it's a, it's a tragedy, not just for Americans, especially those who died in a war. That's ending this way, the tragedy for the Afghans who were going to be left behind 38 million of them now returning to a state that you and I found them in 20 years ago, where they live in a virtual, you know, medieval fiefdom run by people with very, very dark views of society.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, you know, I wish I did know what I was doing at that time, and I'm sure you, you did better than I did trying to navigate the, the dust storms and the sand storms and trying to find the Northern allowance Alliance up in the mountains, you know, firing artillery and tank fire T 60 tank fire at the Taliban's, um, front lines as the Taliban had just, um, you know, killed Optima Shama suit, the, the lion of the pen shear and were threatening, um, probably to push into central Asia, possibly it was Pakistan and Digi-Key Stan. I mean, there was a lot at stake then.
Speaker 3:Yeah. A lot of stake. And, and at the, we were just talking, you, you were set up in Aquaman, Chava Sue's house, where he had been killed. I visited that house and saw the room. This was a predecessor, a proceeding event to nine 11 Al-Qaeda people for those who don't remember, uh, assassinated, uh, Ahmad Shah Massoud two days before nine 11 in order to, to destabilize the resistance and to Curry favor with the ruling Taliban. So they wouldn't be mad when they saw what they had done from Afghan territory to Americans in New York and Washington. And it, you know, that moment in time was so fraught and we didn't know what was going to happen, but the, it definitely would not. I think on our radar screens that it would end this way. I mean, everybody understood the Afghanistan was a tough place and it wasn't going to simply become a Jeffersonian democracy overnight that the British had failed there. The Soviets had failed there and the Americans could very well fail there. I just don't think anybody imagined it would be quite like this.
Speaker 2:You know, there was a huge famine underway. Um, and I'm sorry, I didn't want to journey into the past 20 years ago, but I mean, there's a lot of parallels and relevance to what's going on now. I mean, again, Austan was on its knees financially. The Taliban didn't really run a country. They were a fighting force of some kind and really not much more than that. And if you take a look at again, a Stan now, um, you know, the people say nine tenths of the economy is driven by Western nations that have come in and tried to rebuild the country, suddenly take all of that away. That Taliban may be back in power, but they are, they're looking at a looming economic collapse, hunger, um, unrest it, I mean, it will turn around and bite them very quickly.
Speaker 3:Well, well, very, very well likely could. And as you rightly say, the Taliban is not a conventional government in the sense that we are used to thinking of it. It's a, it's a tribal country where they have knit together and effect a coalition at times, uneasy of different radical groups in order to, to claim ownership now of the, of the country. But it's hardly a given that they can manage or govern this place much less running economy. You're right. And I think that, um, you still have ISIS there, you still have pockets of Al-Qaida there, you have the Hekmatyar wing. I mean, there's all these different sort of, you know, warlords. It's just, it's a, it's a very complicated tapestry of, of, of, of politics and, and, and, and, uh, religion and ethnic tribes and languages. One that we never fully got our own hands around our own heads around in 20 years there, which I think is one of the problems, uh, and going forward. It just, it just has the potential to be a massive humanitarian crisis right there in the middle of central Asia. So we want, you know, the United States wanted to gout understandably after 20 years of fighting said, okay, we it's enough. It's their problem, but it could very well become our problem again, maybe in a non-military way. But if you write 38 million people, a country of 38 million people suddenly are starving or, or, or facing great, uh, you know, humanitarian crisis that will ultimately play out beyond their borders
Speaker 2:Too. I know you've written a lot about president Biden. Why did he do this? How did he get here? And the article that you wrote, um, the headline was, you know, Biden ran on competence and empathy in Afghanistan is testing. That, that seems like a pretty polite way to say that the president simply doesn't have any empathy and his competence, uh, you know, is, is hugely questionable now after this, uh, total collapse in against
Speaker 3:Them. Well, I think that he ran of course, Joe Biden last year on the idea that he was a grownup. He ran the idea that he would bring maturity to the room and also compassion that he felt people's pain as opposed to his predecessor. Who of course never did give that, but this last couple of weeks has, has he has had a hard time demonstrating either. It does not look like the most competent moment in any presidency. And certainly he has not really, evinced a lot of compassion for the people who are going to be suffering as a result. It's really actually striking that he, when he gets up and talks publicly, he defends a decision. Understandably, of course, that's what presidents do, but he seem to project the kind of empathy we thought we expected from a Joe Biden about what's about to happen. And what's already happening to the Afghan people much less. And
Speaker 2:Is that just political strategy where you just don't want it? Washington doesn't want to admit they're wrong. You know, they, they don't want to say we got this wrong and you quoted David Axelrod, a former Obama strategist to saying that Biden's eagerness to end the war overran, planning and execution.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that, uh, president Biden made this decision in effect 12 years ago, back in 2009 when he was vice-president and, uh, president Obama made, uh, Afghan review to decide whether or not to send more troops. Biden was basically against, uh, the large influx that by Alibaba eventually approved. And I think from that moment on, he was determined if he ever became president, that he would, uh, pull out that Afghanistan had more or less, uh, proven that we can't succeed there, that we weren't making things better. Certainly after 2011, when we eventually caught and killed Osama bin Ladin, there seemed to be less of a political imperative to stay there. And I think his decision was made, regardless of any advice, he was going to get any, any discussion of the consequences. And of course he would say, well, president Trump signed this agreement, which is all true. President Trump, didn't negotiate, basically a withdrawal agreement with the Taliban that said, we'll get out, we'll free your prisoners, we'll lift sanctions, as long as you don't shoot us on the way out. So it's not like what president Biden is the only one here who wanted to do this, but I think he was just bound and determined going in, uh, to the, to the white house. Uh, you know, but, but in the end, but at the end, of course, it was president Biden made the decision to go forward and do this. It was better than Biden who made the decision, uh, you know, to do it the way he's done it. And I think that, you know, of course that's on him and he will, he will defend himself and people will, uh, hold them responsible if they think he's gotten it wrong.
Speaker 2:I know that you would have been asking a lot of people. Why didn't you stay? Why didn't you S stay with a small number of troops, 2,500 or 3,500, um, hard to do after Trump had paved the road with these negotiations directly with the Taliban, uh, in Doha and cutting out the Afghan government. Um, what, what would have been the potential price if, if the us had decided to stay in support the Afghan government, would they become targets or what was the idea?
Speaker 3:Yeah, president Biden argues that he was really in an untenable position when it comes to the idea of having stayed, because if he stayed, then it would have been breaking the Trump, uh, agreement and the Taliban would have then retaliated with great force. And we would be in all at war. What he's doing is he's framing the choice as either do what I want to do, or it will be like a hundred thousand troops in the height of war all over again is if there were no options in between. And that's something that president balmy used to do all the time to either you do my decision or it's all at war, what you don't want. Well, I, I think as a rather limited, uh, look at the possibilities, I mean, the truth is, uh, you know, for a very small number of troops around 4,500 or 5,000 troops, they're more or less over the five years prior to the Taliban's agreement with president Trump, there had basically not been a whole lot of combat. You know, that for a very relatively small investment of, of forces America had brought a certain degree of stability to Afghanistan, you know, is really cost-effective. You could argue. In fact, you know, in the five years prior to this, uh, you know, there were very few casualties there's casualties, and everybody who dies in a war is, is a tragedy, but basically, uh, fewer than 20, uh, casualties a year, uh, over the last five years. So we were not fighting a big pitch war these last five years. Now, what people say is that's an unsatisfying status quo that that's unsustainable in the long-term. How long are we going to simply sit there? We're not making it any better, but I think what we've seen is we also can make it worse. And that's, what's happened in the last few weeks,
Speaker 2:Fallout from NATO allies in particular needle allies. It just wasn't NATO countries that were in there, but there is a lot of, I mean, here in Europe, there's a lot of criticism daily that the us just pulled the rug and went too quickly. And NATO countries are furious that this has collapsed the way it did.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think it's rather remarkable to hear president Biden say, as he did last week, that, gosh, he doesn't hear any questions of credibility from the allies. If that's the case, then he's not listening. Because as you say, the allies, I'm pretty clear that they think this has been handled badly. You know, uh, the, the, the chancellor Merkel's a designated successor. If he wins said, this is the greatest debacle of NATO history that our reporting says today, that the CEC, uh, leader said, even as far back as June, that this was a betrayal, you've heard people like Theresa May and Tony Blair and, and the French, and plenty of others say that they are very unhappy with the way this was handled. Not necessarily the decision to get out, but so the way that we got out and yeah, yeah. Now look, people would say, look, Tony Blair, as a company is a compromise figure because he was for the Iraq war. And, you know, the Iraq war was a debacle. And therefore, why should we listen to him? He's just a, a warmonger. And I, that's a strong feeling among a lot of Americans here, but having said that was really striking as it was president Biden, who says, I'm going to work hand in glove with the allies. If Trump was, you know, anti Alliance, I'm pro Alliance. And I think this is, you know, create a Fisher, uh, right at the beginning of his presidency that we didn't
Speaker 2:Expect two questions. The Taliban once this, uh, you know, I don't want to call it an evacuation party. It's far from anything that's celebratory, but, but once this debacle ends at the end, possibly in a week or two, you think the U S is about to get very tough at the Taliban inside of Dennis Stan.
Speaker 3:You know, I don't think that's really, I don't, I'm not sure how, what tough looks like. You know, I mean, it's, we're not going to obviously become their economic partners. We're not going to, you know, their friends are not going to be, you know, inviting them to international summits. Uh, but I think that president Biden wants to wash his hands of it. His view is their problem now.
Speaker 2:And do you think that the U S which has been called upon by many different government leaders around the world to finally get tough with Pakistan, Pakistan to a large degree, drove the insurgency, supported the Taliban, probably S you know, hid the Osama bin Laden and has sheltered Al Qaeda that the U S at some point has got to get tough with Pakistan, or will they just fall back and say, we don't want to get too difficult with a nuclear power such as Pakistan.
Speaker 3:Yeah. President Biden is made that point in the past, back when he was vice president, he talked about how we needed to be tougher on Pakistan, but there's been no sign of it so far since he gave, you got into the white house himself as president, maybe he will. Uh, but I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't expect, I don't think it's their priority at this point. I think their priorities are elsewhere, China, Russia, you know, uh, other places I think that, uh, their plan is to basically, you know, uh, leave it to the people in that region to take care of and, and, and, you know, and then move on. Basically, there's been 20 years. Enough is enough. That's the view
Speaker 2:Here, Peter Baker, thank you so much. I think it's a sad ending to what you and I started to cover. You know, that, that had a lot of, a lot of people say that there was a lot of hope, uh, for a new Afghanistan, but here we are again. And, uh, it's probably worse than it was 20 years ago when we went in. But thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Appreciate you talking with me. Thanks a lot. Peter people who may feel most deeply the U S rapid pulled out from Afghanistan and this never ending question of was it all worth it. Those people will be veterans who served there and there were, and I had to read this three times to fully digest it, that there were 800,000 us soldiers who went through Afghanistan over that two decade period among them was former army Sergeant Shane Reese from fob Tillman and Sergeant Francisco Morales. And we also are joined by retired Brigadier, general art Austin, who didn't serve in Afghanistan. He was in Iraq, but he now deals with and helps with a lot of veterans back in the U S so H hello to everyone. Let, let's start with you Francisco, because, you know, I've known you now for over a decade. And I met Francisco and Sergeant Reese at fob Tillman and Francisco. One more time, if you don't mind just setting the stage, where was fob Tillman and what was this place? Because it's so hard to describe to somebody who had never been in Afghanistan. And this post to me was like something out of a world war, one movie. I mean, it was that rugged, uh, and, and that kind of pioneering,
Speaker 3:Right? So, uh, father Tilghman was in, uh, the Paktika province in Lawanda Afghanistan. And it was also coined as the last outpost, um, because we were literally on top of mountain tops and valleys that were close to Noah and anyone, and, and less than a quarter of a mile was the border to Pakistan and
Speaker 2:Wait, and I could stand up there with you and you, you could point and you could see the Pakistan border and where the Taliban would cross over and attack.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly. And we were literally in bunkers, um, while we were there. And, um, we, we didn't always have the best air support or air assets to cover us. So we knew that, you know, like the wild, wild west, you aren't going to have the support you needed. We had to rely on each other right there, um, on the actual Opie and whatever came to us, we had to deal with it right there with what we had in hand. I mean, give it, our, my men are well-trained and we've always had the upper hand, but it was knowing that we are out here. Nobody's coming quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's in the middle of nowhere. And, uh, so, so surgeon Reese, um, do, do you ever get that image out of your head? I mean, I, you know, I was only there for a few days with you guys, but, you know, driving, uh, through the mountains, um, these incredibly isolated, you know, not only the F the fob, the forward operating base Tillman, but all of the old peas up in the mountains where, you know, 7, 8, 9 of you would sit there at night guarding kind of first line of defense from the Taliban, uh, before they tried to hit the fall. Yeah.
Speaker 4:It's a, it's an image that was never really well, or it's an image that will never really be forgotten. And I could probably very proudly say that, uh, for myself and for many others that were there, who served either in 10th mountain or units before us, um, it was, uh, the no man's land. It was the land that was either going to break you or shape you. And it was an area to where we would be going through valleys up to the highest peaks. And the, I mean, you said it best Pakistan border was right there. We got hit a lot, but we really did make a great impact in that area.
Speaker 2:You got hit a lot and you almost got overrun on some of those ops, but so, so let me, you know, now w spin the clock forward and these images now of cobble being overrun by the Taliban, complete collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan army. Um, you feel like when you were there, you made a difference and you reshaped that area. How in the world did we get to where we are now, if it was successful?
Speaker 3:So, while we were there, we did a lot of missions with the Afghan national guard. And then we also did missions with the actually Afghan army. And there's a, there was a complete difference between the two organizations. So the African national guard, I would say were like your countrymen, the people who really want to change and the Afghan national army to how I would describe them, where guys were like, we're just part of any organization that was going to be able to give them any kind of monetary value to help out with their families and whatnot. I don't think they were really there to celebrate. I think they were just there to honestly collect money and whatnot, because we had experiences with, you know, African national army Navy guys who were actually riding both coattails. They were wearing two different uniforms at the same time. And also working with the Ana, the African national guard guys were great. They, they helped us out. We could count on them. And then we didn't feel that comfortable. We worked with the Afghan national army and their police officers. We were responsible for training, uh, Afghan police officers within our area. And it was tough for my soldiers to really understand how to train these guys with the language barrier. But th they, they weren't disciplined. They really didn't seem like they really wanted to be there. You know, um, they, they didn't, they definitely didn't feel and look like the Afghan national guard guys, who you can tell, love their country, wanting to be there. They were taking in everything that we would give it out. And, uh, and they would do anything for the country. And I just wished that whoever was left in charge or guys like the Afghan national guard compared to the Afghan national army
Speaker 2:General, Austin, do you want to take a run at this? I mean, did, did anybody imagine all that effort and all that time, um, and suddenly just it's been wiped away in a week? Well,
Speaker 3:I have a group of guys that I beat with, that I served with in Iraq. We read it every year, kind of had the same conversation, uh, as much like, uh, what, uh, Francisco talked about, you know, you look back at the time that you spent an effort that I spent on a red zone, you know, with, uh, training police, especially what I did over in the ride, uh, from their national security force to all the bits and pieces, you know, neighborhood policing, electric police, uh, oil police. I think we planted a seed, you know, uh, something that gave them an idea of change what's possible. So I can only hope that the same thing happened in Afghanistan.
Speaker 2:I'm going to take a big breath because you would think that seed had 20 years to grow Shane. I want to bring you in here 20 years to grow. Um, and you know, guys should really talked about an Afghan army. Um, the, the pride of being in that army and independent Afghanistan, that they would stand up and defend the country. It all rings pretty hollow right now.
Speaker 4:Yeah. You know, going back to what Frank said, there was, there really was two levels of groups. There was the group who loved their country, wanted to be there. I'm not saying that. And I can't say that for everybody, but you can definitely tell the difference fighting with these guys. Um, a lot of them were ex which I had Dean. I have a photo with one of the guys on one of our ops who was probably in his forties, 50 years, years old, maybe a little bit older at the time. Um, and he was telling stories about when he was young, going against the Russians and how now he wants to help protect his country. When we have some great interviews that we would screw around in, in, uh, get with these guys, just talking to them while we had free time. But then you had the Afghany police who seem timid, seemed like, you know, this was a bad decision, but they're doing it because it was, they were getting paid. Um, I think right now with the current events and I, and I, and I'm not sure on how much of it is true, but I know from just conversations I've had now with a lot of these soldiers, Afghany soldiers, Afghany police who have had issues getting paid. So I'm almost wondering, is this a moment where, Hey, we're not gonna, we're not going to do what we're doing and when we don't need it to protect our city anymore, why we're not getting paid, right. They haven't gotten paid for three to three weeks ago. So that's a question I have, right. Then there's a lot of questions that are, I think a lot of people have right now for the administration, but, um, something went wrong, something definitely went wrong. And, uh, I think there's going to be a lot of answers that need to get addressed soon.
Speaker 2:Are you disappointed that, you know, intelligence always gets blamed for intelligence failures, but are you disappointed that the U S administration didn't see this coming? Or do you think they did see it coming? And simply said, we were just going to fold our, fold our cards and get out now because there's no, there is no long-term solution anymore that they gave up the whole notion that the Afghan government would be able to stand on its time, stand on its own over time.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's a good question. Um, speaking to friends that I have in the intelligence community right now from the common thread is there's disappointment. However, I think that the answer that we're getting forward facing is the unknown. Why did, why were these decisions made? I mean, it's, it's almost like opening up like a ranger handbook. You'll have your mission intent, and then you have your contingencies, you'll have your emergency planning, like there's, there's phases to, to do a full rip out like this. Um, but it's a, the decisions that we're in right now, it's, it's, it's kind of left myself and a lot of other veterans dumbfounded it's, um, it's frustrating because I personally feel, and, and not putting too much, um, emotion into it, but we should have been out of the war a while ago. We did our best effort. Um, but there has to be a plan in place to lead, not have these current events that are happening now.
Speaker 2:Francisco, does it leave you feeling the same way? Are you a bit angry about how the, the withdrawal was handled? If, if indeed it was the right thing to do at all?
Speaker 3:You know, I always say that this was going to happen. Whether it happened, we withdrew five years ago or with whether we would draw five years from now, I always felt like this is what's going to happen anyways, in this direction. As far as being upset and angry, I was not personally. And I would say that because the men that fought with us that were in Afghanistan, the interpreters are there with us, are all in the United States right now. So that kind of gave me like a deep breath of relief, like, okay, the guys that really helped me that, that I'm, you know, miss and get to speak to on a monthly basis are here in the United States, which is great. And so that relieved anger for me, but it does bring back memories of, well, you know, we lost some good men or whatever, you know, we lost Sergeant green, um, in my platoon while we were in FOC Tillman and you know, where are we supposed to be there at the time? You know, they're in our deployment, we did our year, we were on our way home and got turned around, you know, because issues are still going on within our local area. And we knew that the area the best. So when we went back two weeks before coming home, the second time we lost our young men, um, in that area. So you think about, you know, well maybe these young guys who've passed away would still be a library. Now, if we would've dropped out 10 years ago or 15 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think you, you, you run over that pretty quick, but people don't know you're already there for a year. You, you were told you were going home, you, you got to Kuwait, most of you. And then you returned back as part of one of these surges and you had to do another, how many months?
Speaker 3:I think it was up four or five more months.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Correct. Total of 16, I believe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So general Austin at art. If I can ask you, um, how many of these soldiers that come back are still struggling with what they saw, what they experienced with PTSD and does it matter in conversations with them when they kind of go through their losses? Do they, does it matter to them that it was a success in the end? And that now they're seeing this collapse and failure, does that weigh on them or does their PTSD issues simply, you know, not go hand in hand with whether Afghanistan was worth it or not.
Speaker 3:I will say that, uh, and I live in a small community in Western New York, Cuba. I think the biggest difficulty because veterans will do what veterans will do. They will do their best, the biggest issue that I have dealing with our veterans and our local communities. So our local communities for the last 20 years have not understood that we still been at war that we're sending young men and women over to have sent young men and women over to Afghanistan, uh, to fight this nation's battle. However, they've been stuck. It appears to me back in world war two, you know, when there was a bigger heyday. So every Memorial day, every veterans day, I have to regenerate, reinvent this message to our community, that we still have people involved and orchestrating this nation's policies over in Afghanistan, even in my small community, if I had at least at last count six PTSD related deaths, uh, and to try to associate that with what we're seeing today, uh, in the newsreels, it seems that there's still, there's no connection to what veterans have experienced. So I think these conversations need to go on. I need to go into further depth about what we've actually done. I think most of Americans are tuned out of Afghanistan 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:I was one of the first reporters into Afghanistan after nine 11. I haven't tuned out, but it's important that you, you know, you know, that there's another generation or two that just simply don't relate to Afghanistan and what went on there. Um, and Americans themselves had to learn a lot in a very short period of time, what Afghanistan was all about and the Taliban and Al Qaeda links and, and all of that. So for a lot of them, they just want to forget about it. And I guess the U S administration wants to do that as well. But I mean, you had to preach as a leader, as a commander. Um, and you, you Sergeant said to do it as well, um, about motivating young people after nine 11, why they were there, why they had to stay on what the job was and what, what you were accomplishing now, now, how do you resolve that in your own mind? Because you nation build, but th but then the nation has collapsed and you defended America. Um, but now that the same group that you fought against the Taliban will be back in charge of the show, um, in Afghanistan again, and their links to all Qaeda remain according to, you know, sort of all of the experts. So forgive for the long question, but that's kind of how you, how we lay it out. I think to some degree Francisco.
Speaker 3:So, you know, there's going to be a long healing process. And the healing process has began when the first soldier came back home from war and became a civilian slash veteran. And the process has gotten better as far as veterans support. Cause there's so many veteran programming out there now. Um, but especially with this situation that's going on now, it's like ripping off that scab and exposing everything again. One more time. So we, as Americans got to look at, okay, you know, maybe some people are charred to hearing support the veteran support the veteran, but literally now you really got to help them out because they're going through a different kind of pain, you know, uh, what they just got there. Now it's being re-exposed now, now that we know better after 20 years of being of helping veterans out, let's put all those tools to use now and help out these veterans who are experienced, experiencing what's going on now. So me personally, if say Shane calls me and he's frustrated about what's going on. I don't give Shane my opinion about this. I don't tell him, talk to him about politics. I just listened to him and what he has to say it, how he's feeling, because what he's feeling and what I'm feeling could be two different things. Even though Shane and I are in the exact same place, experiencing the exact same thing. And all I can do now is make sure that Shane doesn't become a 22, that I don't become a number 22. And the only way we're going to be able to do that is be there for each other and continue to do programming. Uh, for instance, like Shane did with the whole INR to program, sorry, what's, what's the number 22. So 22 a day of veterans commit suicide. My apologies. Um, but being able to really put forth all those programmings that were there for us in the past, you know, um, bringing them to surface, you know, sharing lighthearted, film.com with our veterans who are experiencing, um, events that are going on to show them that there's other veterans out there that are just like them going through some harsh times, uh, that's going to help us heal if we're able to do that. When you all meet chain, you
Speaker 2:Know, Francisco raises this, this point, I mean, 22 suicide today, but by which, which I think the latest survey says, uh, um, suicides by army vets are one and a half times the national average, I think, but by the latest statistics. But so Shane, we will, you take a run at this that when you hear a lot of old Vietnam veterans, they said they experienced all this horror, but then they came back to a nation that didn't care. Didn't think of them as heroes didn't appreciate their service, their sacrifice. Do you think that there are announced some pretty serious parallels with Afghanistan as well? Because before they would say, okay, well, you know, we won the war in Afghanistan and we stood up an independent government, but now a lot of people will say, well, there was no point to that one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there there is. Um, and I think the F the term ripping the bandaid off, uh, I think Frank said that that's an accurate description of what's happening now. Um, and, and yeah, I have talked to a lot of Vietnam vets, not actually currently, but just in the past about what it was like coming home, especially doing the project hearted. Um, but I think, I feel, I feel right now, there, there, we may have some similar, um, character, similar stories that are, that are going to be happening with a lot of veterans. Um, but that's where, you know, helping a veteran out, helping each other out, I think the form of communication is the best healing process to be able to talk about these things that, that we have, uh, been through the things that we're thinking about currently now, um, for, for me personally, um, I feel we went over there and did the best effort we could. That's why we joined the military. We, we put one foot forward, we continue to move forward. And, and, um, I have no remorse and feel like we didn't accomplish something because I, I, I firmly believe that we did accomplish something. We, I saw it firsthand and we gave our best effort. And we, I don't think we could look at it now as feeling like a failure. That's that, that's those, aren't our decisions. Right. So w um, am I disappointed? Not really, because what was even talked about earlier, is there, there was, what, what was the resolution of this whole thing at what point is it enough? Right. So, um, I have friends that have been in way longer than I have 15, 20 plus years. They're, they're kind of saying the same exact thing, but, um, I don't wanna, I don't want to look at it as a failure. I think we all gave our best effort. Um, but coming back home right now with a lot of what a veterans feeling that the Vietnam mentality, um, I hope it doesn't go that route, but I think how, I think we have enough experience now on how to deal and help veterans through that process, if they are
Speaker 2:All right, or Austin, w what would you say? I mean, when, when these young, not so young, some of them now come up to you and say, you know, was it all worth it? And everybody's saying that it was a complete waste of time. What would you tell her?
Speaker 3:Well, I would say, uh, my experience has been mostly of our military personnel. It's an individual thing. I mean, it was talked about earlier. You can be on the same compound on the same base, same file and come back with a different experience. It's what you put into it as an individual. And I haven't say, you know, 99% of our, our soldiers did their job and they can feel good about doing their job once you've done that whatever happens or comes out of that. Well, that's up to them. I've, uh, I fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to have started my military career, uh, military career back in the late seventies. I enlisted back in 1977. All of my platoon sergeants, two leaders were fresh out of Vietnam. So the concept now of a post traumatic stress suicide action, well, there's some of those same things were going on then, however, it was not nationalized as it is now, we have to continue to communicate, and I would communicate to them young folks, or whoever asked that question, but, Hey, these are some of the greatest Patriots you've ever meet. We've done, we've done our job. We do our job, and we'll continue to add value to our community. But I think the missing piece is they have to understand what these individuals have gone through or understand what Afghanistan was all about. That message has to be a lot clearer than it has been the last 20 years.
Speaker 2:And I guess a lot of people would argue that look, the mission was accomplished pretty early on. America was attacked. Us soldiers went into disarm Al Qaeda, uh, to, to kill or capture. And then nation building was what came next and that, but the prime mission was to go in and defend America, which had just come under attack.
Speaker 3:Yes. And I would say Americans would realize that fact that, Hey, we have, um, our independence day or labor day, they'll be coming up and everybody can feel free about getting into cars, going to work and coming home and not having to fear or understand, or even relate to the images that they have on national
Speaker 2:Francisco. You want to wrap it up here? I mean, I, I think, uh, um, you're always generous with your time. We've done a few of these segments where we've talked about Afghanistan. And I mean, here we are in a surreal situation where American troops are down to their last piece of turf at the airport in Kabul, trying to get Americans and other foreign nationals out, asking the Taliban for safe passage through cobble. And maybe that's going to unravel in the coming hours or weeks. It's not a good situation, but, you know, take us home here. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:I always knew that the hardest part of this conflict in Afghanistan was going to be the exit strategy. No, we went in and did our job, you know, throughout the 20 years over there, what did we did exactly what we wanted to do every time. And we're just tending to Baton over to the next group of soldiers and extra for soldiers. That wasn't the hard part. I always knew that the extra strategy, which was going to be the worst portion of this whole mission and whoever to deal with that was going to have a tough time. And they were going to take the Brock of all the negativity that's going on about it, Afghanistan. So the current folks who are there now experienced this, there, they're going to be the ones that are filling the, the actual harshness of this, that the leaders evolve now from who's in a service now to all the way to the top, you know, they're going to be the ones that have to answer to all of this stuff. But I think that when we talk about extra strategies for us as veterans, our exit strategy now is let's make sure we're actually from that, but going into something that's going to help each other out. Let's make sure we're calling each other, call your battle, buddy, take them out for a cup of coffee. You know, find, put yourself in situations are going to help out with stress relief, you know, do something positive, you know, um, promote whatever organization you want to promote. Doesn't have to be necessarily veteran related, just get your stuff out there and do something positive. So that way, this is not a loss for you. This is not a loss for your battle buddy who died. You know, I'm moving on for Sergeant green. Sergeant Green's mom stays in touch with me and she sees my growth. She watched my kids grow up. She see me had a daughter afterwards. I see Mrs. Green every two years, at least, you know, um, and she even told me, Frank, don't come back for a few years, stop keeping this burden, which I don't know if I'll ever let go, but now it's move forward. Live your life. You know, we're always, it's always gonna be there. It's never gonna go away, but you know, I can't fix it, but I can help monitor it and I can help manage it. So let's all help each other manage the direction that we're going now, you know, that's all we can do. Um, and just become great leaders in whatever domain we decide to do it in whatever capacity as well.
Speaker 2:Shane, I don't want to cut you out.
Speaker 4:I think Frank's absolutely right. Um, you know, we're on our last piece of turf and there's a lot of effort to make sure that this is a smooth process. Um, on the military side with our, with, uh, our American citizens that are still over there. And then also a lot of the interpreters, right? There is a lot of effort that's not seen on the news right now, trying to get everyone out as much as possible. There's also veterans right now that are helping, um, give information back and forth to get out a lot of these interpreters and, and make this a smooth transition as well. So it's a, there's a lot going on. Um, it's a mess and, and I, and I think Frank just hit it on though, but like, what are we, what are those next steps for us? And we're going to have to, we're going to have to continue to push forward. Like we did in the military, we're going to have to better ourselves and better those around us and communicate and talk and being able to, willing to share stories and, and being able to, um, just have the willingness to articulate the situations we dealt with over there. Talk about what's going on currently now and be a community. Um, you know, that's the biggest thing is in the military, your community, you have that comradery, you have that teamwork when you get out that should never go away. It should never go into, in fact, it should only be enhanced because you're going to meet so many other people. So it's a interesting time right now, but I can only hope for the best for what we have over there that are still remaining, as far as, you know, our civilians and hope we get the rest interpreters out. And, um, there's going to be plenty of guys, just like all, everyone on this call that are just willing to help other veterans out and talk and, and help them through that transition. Well, some good
Speaker 2:News, some good personal news. And that is it. My producer in Afghanistan, who I, I mean, I was gonna get a Stan a couple of dozen times. And, uh, he, as of last night was able to get his family on a plane and get out. So, and, and, uh, so he saved with his family and starting a new life. I mean, uh, incredible. He's in his late forties, but he's out and he's safe. So Sergeant Shane Reese and Sergeant Francis, um, Miralis and general art Austin, uh, really a pleasure and an honor to talk to you guys, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:And that's our backstory on Afghanistan. Hard to let the story go. I invested so much of my time there as a TV reporter, and I'm sad the way it's ended. It's not good for NATO for America, but most of all for Afghans, let's just say, Afghanistan is to be continued. Please share backstory, subscribe, wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Dana Lewis. Thanks for listening. And I'll talk to you again soon.
Speaker 5:[inaudible].