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Discovering the Eucharist with Justine Callis
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In this conversation, Justine Callis shares her transformative journey from a Protestant background to embracing Catholicism.
She discusses her early life, the pivotal role of community in her faith, and the profound impact of encountering Catholic teachings, particularly through the works of Dr. Scott Hahn. Justine reflects on her internal struggles, the significance of the Eucharist, and her decision to pursue Catholic theology, culminating in a life-changing silent retreat that solidified her conversion.
In this conversation, Justine shares her profound journey of faith, exploring Ignatian contemplative prayer and her eventual conversion to Catholicism from a Protestant background. She discusses the challenges and emotional turmoil of conversion, the importance of understanding and articulating faith, and her mission to help others navigate similar journeys. Justine emphasizes the beauty and depth of Catholicism while acknowledging the truth present in Protestantism, advocating for unity and understanding among Christians.
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Welcome to yes Catholic, where real people share their real stories and discover God's grace at work in their lives. I'm your host, David Patterson, and every week we bring you inspiring guests who share how they came to say yes to Jesus and His Church. Let's dive into their journeys of faith and see how grace is transforming lives in our world today. I'm really excited tonight to welcome Justine Callas. Welcome, Justine. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story.
Speaker 2Hi, david, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1Absolutely so. Why don't you share a little bit about yourself before we dive into the rapid fire?
Speaker 2Yeah, so I am a Catholic convert. I converted to the faith three years ago and I formerly used to work at a Protestant megachurch and I loved it. And I grew up in a wonderful, beautiful Christian home. Gymnastics it's a really big part of my story. I was a gymnast for 20 years of my life and right when I retired from gymnastics I started working in full-time ministry and then I think what happened was I put the intensity of gymnastics and had heard a couple of claims about the Catholic faith and then transferred that intensity into looking into Catholicism and eventually ended up converting. And now I am the founder of something called Theology of Conversion and it exists to equip Catholics to draw their Protestant loved ones home, to draw their Protestant loved ones home. And I'm also engaged to be married to a wonderful man. His name is John and he also runs a Catholic business as well.
Speaker 1Well, congratulations. I'm so excited for the two of you and John's just such a great guy. He's definitely been on yes Catholic in the past too.
Speaker 2So he's great.
Speaker 1Well, let's get to know you a little more. With the Rapid Fire Icebreaker, challenge you ready to tackle some of these questions?
Speaker 2I'm ready.
Speaker 1All right, texting or talking.
Speaker 2Talking Morning person or night owl, both. What is the best advice you ever received To ask myself the four questions and the Baltimore Catechism Does God exist, yes or no? Is Jesus the son of God, yes or no? Did Jesus establish a church, yes or no? And did Jesus establish one church or many?
Speaker 1Okay, favorite book in the Bible.
Speaker 2Probably the Gospel of John, but maybe Esther, because of Esther 4.14. Perhaps you were created for such a time as this.
Speaker 1I love that verse. Why, john, though?
Speaker 2I just think it's very beautiful and it's like a little more emotional, I think, than the other Gosp and it's just poetic and I love reading it.
Speaker 1I love the image of the eagle, almost like hovering the big picture right.
Speaker 2Yes, uh-huh.
Speaker 1Okay, go-to order at a coffee shop.
Speaker 2A hot small vanilla latte.
Speaker 1Love it All right, go-to short prayer.
Speaker 2Hail Mary, especially because I didn't have it my whole life and I'm a Catholic now.
Speaker 1So it's a beautiful prayer. Okay, last one. If you could have coffee with any saints, who would it be?
Speaker 2Probably St Mary Magdalene, because she's my confirmation saint.
Speaker 1That's great. Well, you flew through the rapid fire. Let's begin with a Hail Mary, and we'll have you share your story In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, jesus.
Speaker 2Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Speaker 1In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, amen. All right, justine, let's dive right in. Where does your story begin?
Speaker 2My story begins in a beautiful Protestant Christian home. I'm the youngest of five kids. I started gymnastics when I was a toddler, so right off the bat gymnastics is a part of my story. I fell in love with the sport and, yeah, I just had a really good exposure to Christianity and there's not a time in my life when I have a moment where I don't remember having Jesus in my life. So I think I prayed the sinner's prayer when I was like six or seven somewhere around there and I prayed it like 100 times because wanted to like make sure God heard me. But yeah, I just had a really great upbringing and I just remember like watching my mom read her Bible and drink coffee at the kitchen table and she would quote scripture all the time and we went to church every Sunday.
Speaker 2I grew up in a Christian private school. It was like half homeschool, half private school and so my worldview was formed in Christianity and I loved Jesus. And then, when I was 15 years old, I moved across the country for gymnastics, actually to train with these coaches, and when I moved I also was exposed to this beautiful Protestant megachurch and there I was baptized, because I didn't grow up in a specific denomination. We were non-denom but it was probably most Baptist leaning, I'd say. In that denomination we didn't baptize babies, of course. And then you kind of waited until the person was ready and they wanted to get baptized, because I don't think he believed it was salvific. So I got baptized when I was 16. And it was really starting to. I loved Jesus before I moved, but I really felt in love with Jesus at this mega church and it was just incredible.
Speaker 2And then I went on after high school to do college gymnastics and doing gymnastics in college I started student ministry with a couple of different ministries and it was so beautiful. I was really starting to learn what it really meant to like give Jesus absolutely everything, and gymnastics was like my platform. I would always use the language audience of one and it was like my platform to spread Jesus. So I led some gymnastics team, bible studies and got to watch some of my teammates get baptized and give their life to Jesus, and it was just amazing and everything was great and I thought I was going to start working in the secular world in communications production, something along the lines of my major.
Speaker 2And then I ended up getting a job offer post-college to work at that very megachurch that I had started going to when I was a teenager and the pastor was my hero and I really discerned it and I was like, okay, I thought I would go into broadcast or something with communications, videography, something like that. And I was like, okay, I thought I would go into, like, broadcast or you know, something with communications, videography, something like that, because I worked so hard for those four years and then I ended up discerning that that was the Lord's will and so I said yes to that job and thankfully I did end up using my degree, but just in ministry, and it was beautiful and great. Then one day my life changed forever. But I'll pause there because I know that I just blew through my childhood, high school, college and then post-college.
Speaker 1Dramatic pause right.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I'm just curious, as you're sharing about getting involved with the megachurch, what really helped you grow deeper?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think community life was a really big part of that.
Speaker 2I think, just seeing other people who were devoutly in love with Jesus.
Speaker 2And then I started really learning certain types of language, so what it meant to fulfill the Great Commission and evangelization, and small group Bible studies and just all these beautiful things. And then I respected the pastor so much. I took copious notes I have so many notebooks full of notes from his servants and my heart was burning, truly burning within me, over what I was hearing and I was just like this is so beautiful. And also this megachurch had over 300 ministries, so they had everything you can think of. They had everything from a biking club who would ride their bikes on the mountains all the way to the largest human trafficking rehabilitation center in North America, and so it was just this beautifully effective megachurch and I just fell in love and I really at that point started to understand that Jesus deeply loved me and desired that I give him my whole life. And it was easy because I was seeing so many other people do it and I don't know, I just think like a fire lit inside my heart.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's beautiful. And what role were you serving in at the mega church when you were hired on?
Speaker 2Yeah, so I did two. I wore two hats basically there. One was something called next steps and essentially what my job was there. It was called from street to seat and that means that I was kind of in charge of, like the impression that people would have from the moment they drove onto the campus all the way until they sat down for the Sunday service. So what we did was, you know, of course, we had people planted outside and they were just so happy and like we're so glad you're here, like welcome to you know this church, and all of that.
Speaker 2And then inside we had people trained to find new guests, to be able to identify people who hadn't been there before, because it's huge, thousands of people. But we had people trained on how to identify new people and we would say hi to them, we would get to know them very briefly and we would try to plug them in to one of those 300 different ministries to make a big church feel small. That was our goal. And then we always did our best to get some type of contact information and we would actually send them a handwritten this is part of my job A handwritten note thanking them for coming, and then we would mail it to them and we would invite them back. So it was a whole beautiful system. Yeah, it was really lovely. And then I would plug them into one of those 300 groups and so I got to know their gifts and their talents and what they liked. And then also I did a bit of event coordination, donor relations kind of thing with the Human Trafficking Rehabilitation Center and that was so beautiful.
Speaker 1Just so intentional from the parking lot to being inside.
Speaker 2Yeah, it was really really beautiful. And so Catholic Church. At this point, many Catholics in my Bible studies who were what we would consider now like fallen away Catholics and none of them had ever mentioned any of the things that I think I'm going to get to in my story later and I think now I realized they were just kind of uncatechized Catholics. And so at this point I didn't think that you couldn't go to heaven if you were a Catholic, but I kind of thought, like you go to heaven in spite of being Catholic. But I kind of thought like you go to heaven like in spite of being Catholic, like that.
Speaker 2I kind of felt like in Catholicism there was lots of barriers to Jesus. That was my impression of it. But really frankly, I didn't even know what the word Protestant meant at the time and so I wasn't looking at like multi denominational differences. It wasn't until I had encountered Catholicism that really this, this box was opened that I could never shut again. And so at this point I was just like sure, but like over half of our congregation is like fallen away Catholic. So I didn't really have any idea of what was actually true about Catholicism at this point.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's almost like when you start reading the church fathers, it's like it's end game.
Speaker 2Yeah. So one day I met one faithful Catholic who asked me why I went to the church that I went to and of course me being in ministry, like I was made for that question I'm like, oh my gosh, I'd love to share with you all these beautiful things about the church, because I really felt that way, I loved it. And then I asked them why they went to their church and they said the Eucharist and the Magisterium, and I said the what that I've never heard about in my life. And then I heard that the Catholics claimed that Jesus established the Catholic church and that the magisterium was the teaching authority of the church and that there's something called sacraments. And one of my first questions when I heard about the sacraments was can you get all seven? And that was a silly question. I didn't know. And so I just started to hear all these claims. And by this point I was like these claims are so audacious that I'm genuinely curious where someone could get the audacity to make them. And so I started just kind of opening this can of worms a little bit, because these claims are pretty offensive to me. That Jesus established the Catholic Church. I was like Whoa, that was just. I'd never heard of anything like that before. And I'm like, you know, we don't even say that and uh, you know we're this denomination.
Speaker 2And so it really started as just like a just a shock of the claims. I'm like, what did you just say? Like how could you, how could you believe so deeply and so confidently in such a statement? And so I just started looking into it and then it slowly started to occur to me. It had bothered me before in my upbringing, but I had never spent any time on it. But I started to realize that I could go down one street and there could be a Baptist church and an Assembly of God church and a Lutheran church and a Calvinist church and a Catholic church and an Orthodox church, and all these different denominations could be on the same street. And so I started to ask myself like okay, these people do at least have a point that there's division in Christianity and I know, of course it's not God's will for that.
Speaker 2And then one thing led to another and I started asking bigger questions like is there a true authority? And then I got introduced to the Baltimore, the four questions in the Baltimore Catechism that I shared earlier, and I started to really ask Jesus like hey, this is weird. Like did you establish a church? Like I'm a little put off by all of these claims I'm hearing and like these are new questions. And so I went to my Protestant pastors, who I was working for, and I said, hi, I noticed that there are 14 principles of this denomination that is listed on this website that you know we identify as. And I said Do I need to memorize these 14 principles and be able to like answer them if someone were to ask us about our theology? And he laughed at me and he was like, no, like we that's, we're never going to, like we're not going to talk about that. Like, surely, like you can read them and study them if you would like. But he was like it's actually common to not agree with all 14 of them and it's okay. And I was like what, like, okay, so like we clearly don't revere these very much, but they're just kind of there as like an arbitrary structure. And I was like, okay, that's odd, because at this point I was having, you know, a couple Catholics ask me what denomination I was, and I was like, well, I work for this denomination. I thought I was this denomination because of, you know, there are 10,000 beautiful things about this megachurch that I'm working for. The sermons were incredible, the community life was incredible, the praise and worship was amazing, over 300 successful ministries. It was so beautiful. But I couldn't deny that I was starting to enter into a crisis of sorts over some of these really bigger questions that I now know many converts come to question. So that's when things kind of started crumbling a little bit and then things went on and it was pretty early on in my conversion.
Speaker 2This is one of my favorite stories to tell. This is the story of how I met Dr Scott Hahn. So I got recommended his books very early on in my conversion and I had read a couple of them. I read From Sweet Home and I read the Lamb's Supper and just a couple beautiful ones. And I had heard that he was coming into town and I was like, okay, that's pretty rare and everyone was very excited and all these Catholic people I knew were going and I'm like, okay, well, it seems like a no brainer that I at least have to go to this conference that he's going to be speaking at because he seems, you know, pretty amazing and I don't agree with the guy, but I'll just at least like listen to what he has to say.
Speaker 2So I went and I sat in the back of the church and I was trying to keep a very low profile because the mega church I worked at very public, lots of people. I sat in the back and I was keeping a low profile and about halfway through I started to get very nervous because it was so good and it was Dr John Bergsma and it was Dr Scott Hahn and they were just incredible, they were blowing my mind. Incredible, they were blowing my mind. And so halfway through was the lunch break, and during the lunch break they had this library set up outside of the church of all of the books from the St Paul Center. And so I went to this little library and I said to myself before I said, I want to pick out one book that seems to encompass Catholicism, what's the thing Like, what's the most important thing in Catholicism? And so I had determined in my heart that it must be the Eucharist, because if the Eucharist is real, like that's the main thing that separates Catholicism and Protestantism.
Speaker 2So I found a book and it's called the Eucharist by Lawrence Feingold and it's about this thick, and I was super excited and so I got it and I was like, okay, I'm getting this book, I'm going to get down to the bottom of this whole Eucharist doctrine thing. And so I went to check out and the book was kind of expensive and so I decided that my ministry salary didn't justify the purchase and I was going to try to find it online somewhere cheaper. So I put the book back and I went back in and then at this point the St Paul Center was handing out like prayer cards and like donation cards. Now in the Protestant church, donations and tithing is very serious, we take it very seriously and it's preached about all the time and it's very beautiful.
Speaker 2So I had strong convictions about tithing and giving and so I'm like, okay, I don't know if I agree with these people, but I'm at least going to make this like small donation because I know that they love Jesus and, yes, I might not agree with their theology, but I can feel like the Holy Spirit is totally here and like I know the donation bowl. And then at the end of the conference, dr Han comes up and he says thank you to everyone who came and he says that he's got to catch a flight but that he was very happy that we came and that he wanted to give away this book. Well, he picks up this book and he shows the crowd, and it's the Eucharist by Lawrence Feingold. It's the one that I had picked out.
Speaker 1Of course it is.
Speaker 2It's the one I picked out during the lunch break. And I'm just sitting all the way in the back and I'm like, oh goodness, that's the book I picked out Must be good. And so he says I've got this big, big bowl. It's like this giant bowl. He's like, and I'm just going to like, pick at random, you know someone who's here. And I'm like, okay, so he, he picks it, he puts his hand in, he unravels it and he says my name.
Speaker 2He had picked out my card and I was absolutely shocked. But then after that, he decided to read out loud what I wrote him on the donation card and it said Dear Dr Hahn, I'm a Protestant. But after today, not for long, and then the whole church starts erupting and cheering and I have to walk down the aisle all the way to go see him to get this book and people are cheering for me. I'm like, oh my gosh, I was trying to keep a low profile at this Catholic conference. And he gives me a hug and he says you made my day. And he gives me the book. And it was incredible, and that was in the beginning of my conversion.
Speaker 1I love that story. That's amazing. Just the timing to have like wanting to buy the book.
Speaker 2And then, of course, you get called right Eucharistic adoration. And I just remember one time I went in and my mother had taught me that prayer can be thought of as like sitting at Jesus' feet, and so when I went into adoration I recalled that thing that my mom had told me and I thought, oh my goodness, if this is true, this is the one and only place that I can physically sit at Jesus' feet on this side of heaven. And I just wept while I was in adoration, just totally wept, and I'm like this is this is either real or it's not. Another time I went to Eucharistic adoration I knelt down and I had seen these flowers at the bottom of the monstrance and I thought that was like very beautiful. I was like, oh, the Catholics, that's very sweet and that's very, that's very like physical, tangible, like you know, so sweet. And I was like I knew I had decided that those flowers were fake, like for some reason. My default was like those are fake flowers and that's very sweet that they're like on display right there. And then I went up to kneel down and I knelt down and then I breathed in and I smelled the flowers and I was like, oh my gosh. They put flowers at Jesus's feet Like they really think this is Jesus. And then I just wept again and I was like the fragrance of these flowers, like people really think this is Jesus, to the point where they just brought him flowers and put them at his feet. Who does that? And that just really impacted me.
Speaker 2And then finally fast forward, lots and lots of tears in prayer and total meltdowns, and I'm getting to the point now where I'm really starting to realize what it would cost me to become Catholic. And I love my job at the megachurch. I have a wonderful relationship with my family and I at this point had a good ministry reputation and I really was starting to understand the gravity of what it meant if the Eucharist was truly real and if the Magisterium was truly established by Jesus, protected by the Holy Spirit. So at this point things are, I am unwell internally. I am just experiencing so much chaos and really starting to One of the red flags or green flags for converting. But in my heart it felt like a red flag was when I would get into conversations I would start defending Catholicism. When I was having these and I was like, oh no, I'm starting to defend the Catholics. Do I believe this. And I started to defend at like common misconceptions about things that are not actually true. And so I was like, okay, now I know you know GK Chesterton and he's like can't remember that quote. But it's basically like you begin to become fond of the church after you know a while and I was like, oh goodness, like I was, you know, arguing against her and now I'm becoming fond of her and it's actually very beautiful.
Speaker 2And you know, then I decided that I was going to switch my master's degree from nonprofit law to Catholic theology, because at least I would know that I was making a fully informed decision if I enrolled in, was starting to study Catholic theology. So that was a really hard thing to explain to my parents and my family, but I was like I just feel convicted to do this and I don't have to finish the degree and like I just want to make sure I fully understand you know where the Catholics are coming from. And if anything, I was like I was so yoked to the statement I was like, if anything, I'll come out a better Protestant because I will know what the Catholic church believes. And so I did that and I switched and I went over and complied for my Catholic master's. And right before that I had a priest friend who was mentoring me at the time and he suggested that I go on a silent retreat. And he said now, since you've never done it before, you could do a two-day, you could do a three-day. It'd be pretty intense, but you could also do a five-day. And I was like five, I want to do a five-day. I want to get this figured out.
Speaker 2So I went to my Protestant pastors who I was working for, and I fully came clean over the chaos that was happening in my heart and I was like I truly am beginning to question Protestantism and I really want to just encounter the Lord's heart. And I don't know what to do. And I have this opportunity to go pray on a mountain for five days and turn off my computer and my phone and fast and be with the Lord. And they, they told me that not only could I go, but that I didn't even have to take time off, like I could just go. And they were like blessing me going. And it was the most beautiful series of events and I was just like thank you so much. And they were like you know, we're going to be praying for you and all this. So it was absolutely incredible of them to do that and so I went to this Catholic silent retreat center.
Speaker 2Another priest friend mentored me, gave me spiritual direction for one hour a day for five days and you know, a lot of things come to the surface when you turn your phone and computer off and go to the side of a mountain and do nothing but pray and fast and go on walks and pray. I was spending like six or seven hours in adoration a day and just you know, having a full blown like meltdown, like what are you doing, lord? Finally, the last day, the priest who was mentoring me, he was teaching me about, like Ignatian, contemplative prayer and what it looked like to use your imagination and get images from the Lord. And I had encountered this before in the Protestant church because I was very charismatic and just had had some exposure to that. I had gotten kind of like a couple of we call them like words from the Lord and it was actually very cool, like I got a couple of words from the Lord where I hadn't even met people and then, like was able to like give them like a message that you know felt inspired by the Holy Spirit, and then they would just weep and then tell me why that was like totally from the Lord, and it was really cool. So I had encountered this in some way before, but until I had this language of Ignatian contemplative, imaginative prayer, I was reading this material on it and I was like, oh, this is giving language to what I have experienced. This is so beautiful and this is so much easier because I'm like actually getting like a step by step on how to do it.
Speaker 2We were sitting there last day, my silent retreat, and I had one more night there, and this priest is just, he's like so happy and he's like I, I just think that we, that the Lord like wants to say something to you. And I was like, okay, great, david, I kid you not. Probably 20 minutes go by and I'm hearing nothing and I'm like, father, I don't think it's going to happen, like I'm not hearing anything. And he is just, he has his eyes shut and he's just smiling so big and he's like just, we're just going to wait on the Lord. And I'm like, okay, like you know, fine.
Speaker 2And then, boom, out of nowhere, I get this image from Jesus, and in this image, jesus had blindfolded me and he had been directing me on like where to walk. You know, when you're blindfolded, you're like kind of feeling around and I feel this door. And then we go through this door and then I take off the blindfold and to my dismay we were in a catholic church and I'm like, oh no. So I turn around to tell Jesus that he must have taken a wrong turn. And I turn around and he's gone, he's not there anymore, and so he's now at the altar. I look down, I see him and he's like standing at the altar and I'm like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 2So I like slowly walk down the aisle of the Catholic church and I half-heartedly genuflected because I like wasn't sure if I believed that Jesus was really in the tabernacle or not, wasn't sure if I believed that Jesus was really in the tabernacle or not. And then I sat down in the pew and in this image there was a mass going on, but no one could see Jesus and I. So there was a mass happening, but Jesus and I were just there and we were invisible. And I look at Jesus and he is as excited as like a little boy, like he is just so excited and he starts showing me things in the church. And he goes to the red candle and he's like this candle, this candle. It means that I'm here, I did this for you, I did this for you.
Speaker 2And then he runs over to the statue of Mary, says this is my mom, this is your mom, I did this for you, I did this for you. And then he runs over to the stained glass and he says these are stories from the Bible. I did this for you. And then he runs over to the stained glass and he says these are stories from the Bible. I did this for you, I did this for you. And then he runs over to the floor and there's Latin in the floor and he said I did this for you, I did this for you. And then he goes over to the priest and he puts his hands on top of the priest's hands and then he elevates the host with the priest and he says this is me and I did this for you. And I just sat there stunned, I couldn't believe it. And so I said well, jesus, I have to show you something.
Speaker 2So in this image, I brought Jesus to my Protestant megachurch and I had him sit down in our chairs and I said, jesus, look at the screens. We did this for you, we did this for you. Look at the theater seating. We did this for you, we did this for you. Look at the lights. We did this for you, we did this for you. Look at the theater seating. We did this for you, we did this for you. Look at the lights. We did this for you, we did this for you. Do you love it? Do you love it? And he looked at me and he said I love you. And at that moment, I knew that Jesus was the one who had established the Catholic church and he was offering it to me as a gift, gift that I had never been offered before. That retreat ended on a Saturday. It ended the next day and I resigned from the Protestant megachurch on Monday.
Speaker 1Wow.
Speaker 2And I came into the church just a few months after that.
Speaker 1Hey friends, I want to pause for a moment to give a quick shout out to our friends at Tabella. They're a sponsor managing the production of this podcast, so I can keep bringing these powerful stories to you week after week. Join ministry groups, stay connected to your parish and grow in your faith with the best Catholic content, all for free on Tabella. If you haven't checked it out yet, you can download the Tabella app on the App Store or Google Play. You can use it to listen to all your favorite podcasts, like this one, father Mike Schmitz Abiding Together, and more, as well as other exclusive content. You can also use Tabella as a communication tool for your parish or group. If you're interested in activating Tabella in your diocese, parish or group, just head over to wwwtabellaapp to learn more. All right, let's get back to listening to God's grace at work in our world today. And what was that like? Did you begin RCIA at that point?
Speaker 2Yeah, so at this point I was in, I believe, my second RCIA. I did about three of them. So I did one that was one-on-one, that was just profoundly helpful. I did one that was in a group also very helpful to be walking with other people. And then I did one towards the book ends of it. It was with a parish group who was also coming in. So it took approximately two and a half RCIAs to become Catholic.
Speaker 1And leading up to being fully received into the church. How was that?
Speaker 2Nauseating, terrible, awful. So hard I always say like conversions it's just the worst.
Speaker 1And it's hard right.
Speaker 2It's so hard. It's so hard because, really, one of the worst parts of it, I think, is questioning have I been wrong my whole life? Were those other encounters with Jesus not real because I wasn't in the fullness of Christianity? How does this reconcile? And for anyone listening who's in a conversion, that's just a lie from the enemy. And I would say that Catholicism is 100% of the truth. Protestantism is a very high percentage of the truth. Protestants are only missing some really important things, but they're only missing some things. There is a lot of truth, beauty and goodness also in the Protestant church, and so to be able to reconcile that, no, the Holy Spirit actually can work in the Protestant church and I did have an encounter with Jesus when I was doing that and that ministry is effective.
Speaker 2One of the most helpful things, one of the most helpful realizations that I went through was with this mega church. I've got this beautiful mega church that I absolutely adored, and how can I reconcile all the beautiful things that I saw there? How can I reconcile the wonderful things that they're doing there, how beautiful their worship is, all of these things? Well, I kind of started to understand that there's a specific way that God asked us to worship and there are different forms of worship, and I now know that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the highest form of prayer and that Liturgy of the Hours is the second highest, and there's all these beautiful forms of worship. I wish that this mega church was simply like a ministry school of how to fulfill the Great Commission and how to do that. The only thing that they've not got right essentially is the sacraments and just the fullness of worship and being in line with the magisterium. For me, that was a way that I could be like. Okay, it wasn't in vain Everything that I just experienced all of those years in ministry that I just went through.
Speaker 2I fell in love with Jesus outside of the Catholic church, and that's just how it happened. And, yes, I was exposed to the theology and to the depth and to the beauty and to a depth that I just never could have even imagined, now that I'm Catholic and have been exposed to Catholicism. But it will always be true that I fell in love with Jesus in the Protestant church, and so there's a whole set of language and of teachings and of beauty that exists there, and I think we do ourselves a disservice when we just act like there's no truth there and no effectiveness there, because I think there's actually much that we could learn from the Protestant church and there's also, of course, much that the Protestant church could learn from the Catholic church to step into the full version. And lastly, I'll just say this GK Chesterton says that non-Catholic Christian faith traditions they're like the shallows. They have some truth, some depth, some water. But to become Catholic is to come to the well and that's what it feels like now. I feel like I'm in the well, I'm receiving the depths of the fullness of Christianity that's in the Catholic church.
Speaker 2So conversion was awful, it was terrible. It was so hard to explain it to my family. It was so hard to lose a lot of my reputation. It was hard. I didn't know what I was going to do for work. I didn't know anything. I was just like completely I felt like all I had was Catholicism and I was just kind of giving everything up for Jesus. And I was just kind of giving everything up for Jesus and it was like death. It felt like a form of death because I was dying to my old life and it was really, really hard to explain to people who hadn't also been through thousands of hours of studying and crying and praying and reading and meeting with Protestants and priests and all these different types of people. It's hard to explain. So worth it, best decision I've ever made, but really hard.
Speaker 1What was it like the day of to receive the sacraments?
Speaker 2I considered running away the morning.
Speaker 2I was like, actually I could like to get into my car and like leave, like there, like I had like a spot and everything. I was like I could just go. And then you're trying to reconcile and pray and just be like Lord, like now's the time if I'm making the wrong decision, now's the time before I make an eternal vow on an altar in front of all these people, like now's the time to tell me that I'm making the wrong decision. And of course, like you know, I didn't run away.
Speaker 2But I certainly thought about it and I teach RCIA now and it was funny because I had a gal who we thought actually did run away and we couldn't get in contact with her like the week leading up and I was like I don't know, she might have gotten cold feet. And then she showed up like a minute before and, lo and behold, she was considering it. So I just I understood and I knew where she was coming from, because it it's hard but all of that to say from the moment that I made that decision on best decision I've ever made in my life and it only keeps getting better.
Speaker 1So that's what's on the other side of it so you experienced peace after a little bit of wrestling going on 100%. Justine, I just love the fact so much that at the very beginning of this journey, even before you went to your pastors, you went to Jesus and you're like Jesus, what's going on here? I just love that so much. That just shows your heart in that right Of just striving to seek that truth and just saying, jesus, what do you have to say about this? You know, I just I think that's so cool.
Speaker 2Well, I was having a bit of a crisis of sources because I'm like, okay, like of course we all believe the Bible, like we're not arguing about the Bible being the word of God. I'd covered the low hanging fruit, so I'm like no-transcript. Admittedly, I also said Jesus, anything but the Catholics, anything but the Catholics, please not Catholicism. And because I just incredible sense of humor.
Speaker 2I hadn't like, I just hadn't been exposed to what I am exposed to now in the truth, beauty and goodness of Catholicism. But I just was really like I'll become Orthodox. At one point my mother suggested that I look into Judaism and she was like, maybe that's what you're looking for. And then I was like Mom, his name is Dr Brant Petrie. Please, jesus and the Jewishness of the Eucharist, jesus and the Jewishness of Mary, read these books. I know what you're saying. It is Judaism. This is the fulfillment. I was just trying.
Speaker 1That's right. You said that you plowed through a number of books which were the ones that really stood out for you on that journey.
Speaker 2Scott Hahn was just probably the most pivotal, just reading the Lamb's Supper and starting to make sense of what was happening, because I was really having trouble. I would go to my Protestant church. We would be so happy and so on fire for the gospel and so just, effective ministry, beautiful. And then I would go to mass and it would seem like everyone was like dying and I'm like, why, if that's true, what's happening on the altar? Why are you not sobbing? Why are you not just here all the time? Why are you like, why does Catholicism look this way? Why do my Catholic friends like not? Why have they never told me all of this? And so I just had so many difficult questions and you know, I just I really started to ask those, and so reconciling all of that was, yeah, it was just, it was very, very difficult.
Speaker 2And getting to that point where I realized like, okay, there is a specific form of worship that God asked.
Speaker 2And being able to get through all those questions and having Scott Hahn Hahn like guide me through that and someone I of course I related to him because he was a protestant pastor. So I'm like, okay, this is someone who at least understands my brain and can like speak from it from that standpoint, because they're like, catholicism has its own language, and I felt like he was able to articulate the faith in a way that was was really beautiful. And then, of course, dr John Bergsma and then Dr Brant Petrie like all of these just phenomenal Catholic theologians were giving me language to things that I really needed help with, and so I was just really trying to push into that. I also had a number of very, very intelligent priest friends who were recommending books, so I can't take any credit for the formation. I just happened to encounter some on fire very holy priests in my life and seminary trained, and so they were recommending things to me and it was a profound gift.
Speaker 1You want to talk to Theology of Conversion a little bit, just the mission.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I founded Theology of conversion this past August in 2024, on the assumption August 15th. Yeah, uh-huh.
Speaker 1That's when I came home.
Speaker 2That's when I said my yes, oh, my goodness, oh, that's so special. Thanks, lord, congrats, that's awesome, I'm. I'm going to remember that now every year on the anniversary. So yeah, august 15th it's also my birthday by the way. So I was like this is fun because, well, it wasn't so fun when I was Protestant and I found out that my birthday was the assumption, I was like oh, my gosh now I love it.
Speaker 2Now I'm like I have to go to mass every year on my birthday. This is like the best gift ever. So it was my birthday, it was the launch day for Theology of Conversion. I was like trying to consecrate it to Mary and you know all the things. So Theology of Conversion exists to equip Catholics in drawing their Protestant loved ones home, and basically what it is is right now.
Speaker 2It was kind of birthed actually at SEEK 2024 with Focus Catholic, and I gave a talk there at SEEK and I gave it on this topic of. I called it From the Shallows to the Well Evangelizing Protestant Friends and in that space I basically just like something clicked and it felt like a culmination of all of the years. Earlier In our conversation I was saying that you know, I had gotten my undergrad in like communications production, journalism and and I went on to work in ministry and then I went on to study theology and then I began speaking about this topic. I converted and I worked, you know, for just a number of different places and everything was starting to make sense, everything was starting to come together, and so during this talk I realized that there are so many people in the world who care about this topic. They have Protestant loved ones who they want to draw home to Catholicism and they don't know how to talk to them. They don't know the language of Protestantism. They don't know how to articulate or defend the Catholic faith because it's hard it can be very complex sometimes to give good, articulate explanations when we're asked a question. But I'm kind of driven by 1 Peter 3.15, which says to have an answer ready for anyone who asks you about the hope that's within you. So I feel very convicted about having an answer ready because during my conversion I was often not met with an answer when I would ask Catholics and it wasn't their fault. It's a catechesis problem in the church and not everyone has that problem and I got exposed to that too. But it pains me that there is something like the Catholic Church and the fullness of Christianity and all of its beauty, and it is simultaneously one of the most misunderstood institutions, probably the most misunderstood thing ever to exist, and that's very painful for me and I just want all of these incredible Protestants who are out there. I know beautiful, devout Christians who are Protestants, who do not know, who have never read a page of GK Chesterton, who have never read a page of Aquinas, and if they did, they would convert to Catholicism because they would be convicted. I trust their prayer lives and I trust that they would bring it up with Jesus too, and that he would lead them to the truth. And so I have this mission.
Speaker 2People often ask me why are you spending so much bandwidth on converting Christians to Christianity? I hear that line a lot. I'll get DMs about it and I'm just like great point, that's so valid. But I believe that Jesus called us to fulfill the great commission. Now, in order for us to fulfill the great commission, we have to identify what our gifts are. We have to identify where in the church am I being called? And by doing that I will be most effective if I follow the path that the Lord has me.
Speaker 2You know the quote the more holy you become, the more like yourself you become, and so discovering what true holiness is, discovering the Lord's heart, you are becoming more like yourself, which means that we should be pressing into our gifts. You running, yes, catholic. That is pressing into your gifts, and it's fulfilling the Great Commission by spreading these stories and drawing people home to the faith. And it's so beautiful. So the reason I'm trying to draw Protestants home to Catholicism is because I think the Christian church will be most effective in doing the one most important thing, which is fulfilling the Great Commission. I think we'll do that most effectively if we can draw home all of our Christian brothers and sisters into the fullness of the faith. Because I know that there is extreme untapped potential in the Protestant church and they would make beautiful and we're missing them. And we feel that in the Catholic church, like we're missing our Protestant brothers and sisters and we need them, like there's there's many gaps in in the Catholic church because of the Protestant reformation. So, yeah, that's kind of the heart behind it.
Speaker 2Right now I'm just doing short form content on social media, just on Instagram right now, and I'm also giving talks on this topic and so, yeah, I just I hope it.
Speaker 2I hope it helps people to heaven and you know it's it is for Catholics, but of course I'm I'm making the videos fully aware that there will be Protestants, like me a few years ago, who will kind of peek into the message behind it. And, lastly, I just think there's a lot of tension on the internet about like people trying to prove Catholicism right and I don't personally find that effective in drawing people home. I don't personally find that effective in drawing people home. I think oftentimes Protestants can kind of walk away from those videos or you know that type of stuff and just be like man. Catholics are kind of jerks and I'm like that doesn't seem like Jesus. So I want someone to encounter the Holy Spirit when they encounter me, and so the way in which we speak about these denominational differences I find to be just really, really sensitive, important, and I want to be able to do it in love, of course, because you're not doing what Jesus asked if you're not doing it in love. So that's the mission behind theology of conversion.
Speaker 1I love that. It's really just trying to echo everything that is good, true and beautiful, to evangelize and just focus on that. You know what I mean, rather than division, because got enough of that on social media. Need to pray for some unity, right, any spiritual goals this year?
Speaker 2it's one of the questions that came in today. Yes, yes, every day. That's the first and biggest one. More specifically, at minimum 15 minutes of prayer a day, I'm on a streak right now of daily mass. I would love to go to daily mass every day for 365 days. That would be cool.
Speaker 2And I'm also doing rosary in a year with Father Mark Mary.
Speaker 2I have been absolutely loving it so far and, as a convert, I was actually on the phone with my mom, my Protestant beautiful mother, today, and I was like explaining why I'm doing rosary in a year, and I was like, you know, like I obviously you know we didn't grow up with the rosary and so I don't really know much about it, and so it's been one of those things that has been harder for me to come around to, and so I really wanted to hear what the church had to say about the rosary. So I'm doing this podcast every day day. Of course, she knows father mike schmitz and she's heard of ascension. You know, because I partner with them now, and so it was fun explaining to, like a protestant, rosary in a year, but that's one of the ones I'm most excited about is doing that, and then, uh yeah, just the normal stuff. I'm getting married in in five months, so just trying to prepare my heart to be a wife and a homemaker and all the fun things.
Speaker 1All things exciting, which is so awesome. Every guest that I have on I always love to ask the question which is what is your hope for the future of our church? And we're in that year of hope right now.
Speaker 2That is such a beautiful question.
Speaker 2My hope for the church, specifically in regard to young people and Gen Z, is that they would know that the more holy they become, the more they become like themselves, and I think that there can be a lot of misconceptions around Christianity and all that the Lord asks of us.
Speaker 2And don't get me wrong it's been excruciating to follow Jesus. It has been so hard and I've suffered a lot of loss. At the same time, it's been the best adventure of my life and I've never been more free, more truly happy than in the moments following giving everything to Jesus. So just to know that the Lord made you so specifically and with such a set of gifts that only you have. It's true, and fulfilling the Great Commission happens one soul at a time, so if everyone knew that about themselves, then they would feel more equipped, I think, to just have a conversation with one person that's all it took with me. It was one person who shared the truth of the Eucharist and the Magisterium, and that was enough for me to end up converting to Catholicism and, god willing, inspiring other people to convert to Catholicism too. So I think my hope for the young church specifically is to know that the more holy they become, the more they become like themselves.
Speaker 1Fully alive in Christ. I love that, but I'm going to ask one more question. I know I usually finish with this question, but you mentioned that you do talks. So if someone's listening and would like to invite you to a parish or a conference, what's the best way to do that?
Speaker 2Yeah, so I can be reached by email. It's theologyofconversion at gmailcom.
Speaker 1I can also be reached on Instagram at theologyofconversion, and I can be reached in the messages Well on that note, Justine, I just want to thank you so much for your yes to Jesus and his church. It's been such a gift to to have you share your story and I'm just so excited the journey continues, right. Let's continue to wake up every day and just renew that, that daily fiat, that yes to the Lord. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. Would you be able to close us in prayer tonight?
Speaker 2Absolutely In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen, come, holy Spirit. Lord, we just thank you for your goodness and for your faithfulness. Lord, I thank you for yes, catholic, and I thank you for David. I thank you that he said yes to you and that he followed his call.
Speaker 2Lord, I pray for each and every listener who's listening to this right now. Lord, I pray that you would open up your goodness and your faithfulness to them. Lord, I pray that you would pour your anointing oil over them. Lord, I pray that they would know that they are good and that they are set apart and that they are favored in your name, jesus, and that they are set apart and that they are favored in your name, jesus. Mother Mary, we entrust all of our intentions and petitions into the protection of your mantle and Jesus. We ask that you would answer our prayers in whichever way pleases you the most, because we love you and we trust in you. In your name. We pray Amen, in the name of the Father and Son and the Holy Spirit, amen.
Speaker 1Thank you again. It was awesome. Amen, In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen.
Speaker 2Thank you again. It was awesome. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.
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