Curious Vedanth
A fireplace chat hosted by a curious secondary school kid. Every few weeks, I interview different guests about their lives.
Curious Vedanth
Unlocking Music Licensing: Insights with Craig Thorpe
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Season 7 Episode 3: Explore the fascinating world of music licensing and catalog management with Craig Thorpe from AudioSocket. In this episode, Craig demystifies how music finds its way into movies, TV shows, and playlists, explaining the role of sync licenses and the financial dynamics that ensure artists are compensated. From navigating legal frameworks and high-stakes negotiations to managing extensive music catalogs, Craig shares insights into the challenges and triumphs of protecting artists’ rights. He also reflects on his personal journey in the music industry, blending passion, diverse influences, and dedication to celebrating creativity in all its forms.
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Hi, I'm Curious Vedant and welcome to Season 7 of my podcast. Today I'm excited to introduce you to our guest, Craig Thorpe. Craig works at AudioSocket, a music licensing company and catalog, and also freelances for the industry and collaborates with record labels, music publishers and artists to negotiate deals for their music. Hi, Craig, welcome to my show.
Speaker 2Hi Vedantan, thank you for having me. Very excited to be here.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm very excited to interview you. I mean, I really love music, so it's very exciting and fun for me to talk to you.
Speaker 2Great, good to hear. Good to hear.
Speaker 1So can you tell me more about what music licensing means and what you do working in the space?
Speaker 2Sure. So music licensing. Once a piece of music is created, so whether that's written down as notation and lyrics or if it's captured as a sound recording, that piece of music then becomes the intellectual property of the person or the people that created it. So if you write the words and lyrics to a song, if you then make a recording of that song, that becomes yours, you own that. And then if that song or that piece of music is either played on the radio or played in a public space, if it's reproduced as a CD or as a vinyl record, or if it's streamed on the internet or if it's used on TV, then you, as the owner of the rights of that song, are owed money for the use of that song. And that money is what we call music royalties. And depending on the type of use, uh, where that song is used, how many people have heard it, and so on, um, the royalties that you as the creator get for that song can vary. Um, it can be very, very, very small. For example, if a song is played on spotify, you might get a tiny fraction of a cent for that. Or if it's used in a big branded TV commercial or in a big Hollywood movie, then you could earn a huge amount of money for that and everything in between.
Speaker 2An advertiser or a youtuber or a tv producer can legally use that piece of music that you own. They must have a license in place to do that legally, and this is what we call a sync license or a synchronization license. So it's putting music to a picture or to a moving image. And what we do in the sync licensing world is we negotiate between the person or company who wishes to use that song so it could be Universal Studios, or it could be a guy that runs a YouTube channel or anywhere in between and then the people that own the rights to that song, so that could be the artist or the composer who wrote the song. Artist or the composer who wrote the song, or, more commonly, it will be the record label or the publisher that looks after the rights of that song on behalf of the artist, and there is always a fee involved to do so.
Speaker 2So one of the main things that we do mediating between the rights owners and the users is we negotiate what that fee is going to be, and that fee can vary dramatically depending on how big a project it is, how many people will see it and hear it, how much money the project costs to make and many other criteria as well.
Speaker 2So an example might be a huge brand such as Coca-Cola will likely pay a lot of money to use a song in a TV commercial that airs across the US or around the world, whereas a very low budget film that's shown only to a small audience.
Speaker 2Relatively, they may use the same song, but they would only need to pay a very small fee to use that song. So it does vary enormously from case to case. It does also depend on who the artist is as well or who owns the rights. So a very small, unknown artist, maybe an artist that's trying to break out and to become better known, they may license their music for much smaller fees than a huge artist that's already really well known, someone like Taylor Swift or Ravi Shankar, which will demand much higher fees. But yeah, our main job in the music sync licensing world is to make sure that the people using the songs have all the paperwork and the legal rights that they need to use it and that the content and that the music creators are paid fairly for that use as well that sounds like an extremely complicated and also interesting job.
Speaker 1Could you explain more about how individual deals would work like, for example, in a streaming service or for the radio? Would the streaming service or radio station have a direct, have a direct like agreement with the artist or their record label, or is it more complicated?
Speaker 2So for a streaming service. So take Spotify, for example. They will have what they call blanket deals with all of the big music labels, all of the big music publishers. So they will pay a certain amount of money every I believe it's every three months and that money gets distributed across all of the artists, all of the songs that they have on their platform, and that's millions and millions and millions of songs. They do have agreements in place, which gives them the legal right to do so, and those agreements are negotiated with either the big companies, or it could also be with um, the performing rights organizations.
Speaker 2Now, performing rights organizations are large entities that manage the rights to music for specific countries, and every country in the world will have a performing rights organization. In the USA there is ASCAP and BMI, in India there's the IPRO. In the UK there's the PRS and so on and so on. So they will have licenses in place, but rather than very specific licenses going to specific artists, they are huge licenses that cover thousands and thousands and thousands of artists and, depending on how many plays those artists receive, they will get a fraction of all the money that Spotify, for example, makes during that period period. So if you're an artist that's had a thousand plays and you might get a few cents for that over the course of three months, whereas if you're the Beatles and you've had a million plays, then you'll receive quite a big share of the money.
Speaker 2And that's kind of how it works. With radio they also have blanket deals in much the same way, but because with radio only one song at a time is played, so the fees that are paid to the labels, to the publishers, to the artists, is usually bigger. For an example, in the UK, if one of our big national radio stations plays a song, I think the artists will typically, or the rights holders will typically, see around about 100 pounds, which is about 120 dollars per play. Obviously for smaller stations that money would be much smaller as well, but that gives you kind of an idea.
Speaker 1But yeah, it's big blanket licenses that cover everything that they play and I'm assuming that these blanket licenses would also apply to film studios as well.
Speaker 2Right, they apply to TV networks in some territories. So in the UK the TV networks here have blanket licenses. So the BBC in the UK, for example. They will pay a fixed amount of money every year to the performing rights organizations and with that fee they have unlimited use of how much music they use. So any, any tv show that appears on the bbc.
Speaker 2They can use, uh virtually any song and it's all covered by the big annual amount that they pay. It's usually seven or eight figures, I think, in british pounds. That's a lot of money, um, but the film networks tend not to work in that way. Uh, film studios, rather, will usually pay one-off fees to use um songs in a film, rather than having a blanket license. So for example, um, let's say, sony pictures wishes to use a song by Elton John, they will have to go to Elton John's publisher and record label and negotiate a fee to use that song and being a big filmmaking studio they will likely pay a lot of money for that as well. So for films it's much more on a one by one basis, a case by case basis, and that's where people like us who work in the sync licensing world mediate and negotiate between the film studio and the people that own the rights to get the deal that both sides are happy with.
Speaker 1Oh, I understand it now. So, apart from working in music licensing, you also told me that you work for a company called AudioSocket and they manage a catalogue of music. Can you tell me more about what a music catalogue is and what your role is?
Speaker 2Sure, Absolutely so. Audiosocket is a company that manages music licensing for all of the media we've talked about. So TV commercials, movies, movie trailers, web videos and so on and we manage the rights to a large catalogue of music. So that's we have around 80,000 songs and about 25,000 sound effects as well songs and about 25,000 sound effects as well and those songs are created by I think we have about 3,000 artists that we manage as well. And what we do is we work for our artists by licensing the use of their music to all of those types of clients advertisers, filmmakers, any type of content creator that uses music and this ensures that A their music gets out there, it gets heard by people, it gets placed in visual media for people to see and hear, but, crucially, that they also get paid for those uses as well.
Speaker 2And my role at AudioSocket is split into two main strands really. So one I'm the catalogue manager. That means I manage the administration of our catalogue of 80,000 songs, 25,000 sound effects, along with all of the data and information that we hold and that we distribute for those tracks, and that information includes everything from the names and the crucial information of all the people who wrote the songs and owns the copyrights to those songs, all of the creative information about those songs, so it can be what style or genre is the song? Is it fast, is it slow? Is it lively and happy or is it sad or is it scary? Is it a song that's suited to a film trailer or is it a pop song? And so on and so on. And we license our music to people and companies all over the world, so that data has to flow to these clients very accurately and very smoothly as well, and this ensures that the songs are discovered and picked up by the right creators, so the right people can match the song that suits their project best. And all of this information is important to make sure that they find that right song, but also that it is licensed correctly and paid correctly as well. So I manage all of those kind of data streams there.
Speaker 2The second half of my role is in what we call music clearance, and music clearance is more of what we were speaking about before. So if a creator or a company wishes to use a song that we don't control the rights for, for example, it could be a popular song by Michael Jackson, or it could be a song by a small local indie rock band. I'm the person that will go to the people that own the rights to that song usually a record label or a publisher, but sometimes it's the artists themselves and I will negotiate the price for the company's license, that song and the terms of which both sides can agree on and be happy with. I then manage all the paperwork between those two parties, so that will be a licensed agreement, which is basically a legal contract granting all the correct rights to that content creator and that ensures that they have everything they need in place to then use that song legally.
Speaker 2And for an example, a lot of examples of clients I've worked with specifically a lot are some very well-known drinks brands, but also some independent films and some documentaries too. We also work a lot with trailer houses, so that's companies that make the film trailers that you see in the cinema while you're waiting for their main feature as well.
Speaker 1So AudioSocket isn't like a no copyright. It helps artists with their copyright right.
Speaker 2Largely yes.
Speaker 2For the artists that we manage or that we look after, we have a fairly standard agreement that we share with them and it'll be a fixed period of time, usually for one year and then rolling onwards if they choose to stay with us as well, and that agreement basically says the artist will continue to own the copyrights to their music.
Speaker 2But what we do is we they allow us to administer their rights, so we can go to a company and give them the rights to use that music. We don't have to consult the artist, we can just do that and in exchange we pay them a proportion of the fees that we then make as a company to do so. We do also have a small number of in-house artists who do work full-time for AudioSocket and they write music specifically for our company which we then pitch to clients, especially in the advertising space, in the tv space and for film trailers as well. So we do have a handful of artists who work exclusively with us as well and we again manage all of the rights to their music as well as well, and we again manage all of the rights to their music as well.
Speaker 1Wow, I mean, it seems like a really big operation and it it seems like it seems like it requires lots of detail as well. Could you like, could you tell me what a normal day in your job would look like?
Speaker 2Normal day in my job it can vary a lot. Um, on the catalog side of things, it might be, um, making large updates to our database. So we have our catalog of 80 000 music tracks. Um, I may need to go in and change some of the copyright information that we have on those tracks, and often that will be done using excel spreadsheets, for example. Um, if I have to make large updates to a catalog, it can be thousands of rows of information that I need to update. So spreadsheets is a big part of my day in doing that.
Speaker 2Also, if we deliver large amounts of music to a client who maybe then licenses it again on our behalf, it could be a content agency, something like canva or envato, which is one of the companies that content creators go to to license images or to license music and so on then sometimes that will involve again using spreadsheets and file transfers of thousands of tracks, thousands of rows of data.
Speaker 2So I'll be looking after all of that as well. At the same time, I might also be in the middle of a negotiation between a client of ours and a music label who owns the rights to a pop song, and I will be sending emails between both parties negotiating the fees and the rights for that license to be obtained as well. So it can vary a lot. I also look after the royalties that come in through the performing rights organizations, so the companies that collect all of the money for all of the uses of music that appear on TV, that appear on advertising, that appear on YouTube and so on, and I look after the monies coming in for that as well and ensuring that we're getting paid for all of the projects that we license for too. So it can vary a great deal. I look after a lot of different streams of work.
Speaker 2We are a very small team there's only about 15 of us so, um, yeah, each of us manages a lot, um, but as such, we get to work in a lot of different areas, so it keeps it very interesting yeah, it sounds like an extremely fun job it can be, it can be stressful, but, yeah, it can be a lot of fun as well, and we get to work with so many different musicians, um, which is great, and it's, it's, it's just great working for artists and and um, I think the music industry is an increasingly difficult world, so it's, it's, it's satisfying working for artists and um, getting them, getting them heard and, crucially, getting them paid as well so, speaking of the artists getting paid, how important are the rights to a song and how much do they matter to both the artist audience and also the companies who may want to use them?
Speaker 2Well, rights are extremely important to the song and to the artists and the people that created that song and the people that created that song, music rights ensure that they have all of the legal rights and protections to be paid whenever their song is played on the radio or streamed on Spotify or appears in a clothing commercial. A lot of time and effort and energy and emotion and everything goes into the creation of this music. So if it's going to be out there and people are going to then use and exploit that music, then it's only fair that people get paid for it and the rights ensure that they have the legal protections so that those, so that that music isn't abused. Legal rights are also very important because it means that artists will artists music will only be in ways that they agree to and approve, and that a company cannot come along and use a piece of music in a way that they wouldn't want it to be used. So an example might be maybe a company wants to use a pop song in a commercial that advertises I don't know meat or alcohol or fossil fuels or gambling or something that that artist would not want them to, their music to be associated with. Um, the person that owns the rights to that song can say no if they don't agree with the product or if they have strong feelings against that product or what that company is trying to do or sell. And that means that if the artist doesn't want them to use it, then the company does not have any legal rights to do so.
Speaker 2And if a company does, then use that song without obtaining the rights, the rights holders can legally force them to stop or to remove the song and possibly fine them for a lot of money as well.
Speaker 2It's been quite common, especially in politics, where politicians around the world have given political rallies or political speeches and they've used songs without getting permission from the artists, and often when they do that, the artists can get very angry and can actually force them to stop legally. And this is something that's come up a lot in recent years, and so it's extremely important to the artist. It's also extremely important to the companies and to the creatives that use that music because, again, without the rights, the artists have the power to make them stop, to make them withdraw that song, which can be extremely damaging, extremely costly and can reputationally be very risky to companies as well. So it's very important on both sides, and that's why we exist to make sure that those rights are secure and that they exist on both sides of the deal, so to speak on both sides of the deal, so to speak, and you mentioned that you were directly involved in in the conversations between the artists and the companies.
Speaker 1Have you ever have have you witnessed any major fallouts or disagreements between the artists and the companies?
Speaker 2personally, I have not no um, because we are very careful and we take a very detailed approach to how we negotiate these things. We make sure that we have every piece of information that we need from the rights holders. We will contact the publisher or the record label and say in writing please confirm that you control 100 of the rights to this song and, if not, tell us who else controls um some of the rights. And we always get that on paper first of all, and then we will send all of the project information um very honestly and very openly, exactly what the song is going to be used for, who wants to use it, how long they want to use it for, and so on. And we seek the written approval from the rights holders first of all. If we don't have that written approval, or if the rights holders say no, then we will go straight back to the client and say this can't happen, we're going to need to find a different song. Um. So we've never gotten to the point where there's been a major disagreement.
Speaker 2We have sometimes tried to license songs for clients where the artist has had, um maybe a moral disapproval or they don't want their song to be used, maybe in a project that's, for example, a web video or something where they feel their song is more valuable than the project that um the client wishes to use it in. So it is fairly common for artists to say no. Or it's also very common for record labels or publishers to ask for huge amounts of money that the client can't afford or that the advertiser can't afford. So in that case they have to go back to the drawing board and find another song. Or, since we control the rights to 80,000 songs, sometimes we encourage them to say hey, why don't you use one of our songs instead? We can usually license it for a much more competitive fee and you'll be supporting an artist who is maybe less well-known, and this may be a great opportunity for them to get their music out there as well. So, fortunately, no major conflicts, but they certainly do happen.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean that's really good that there haven't been any major conflicts and it's a sign that you and your company is doing a really good job yeah, I like to think so. I certainly hope so yeah and you, as someone who works in the music industry, you surely have a favorite style of music or favorite artist. Who's your favorite artist and what's your favorite genre?
Speaker 2I don't think I could possibly choose a favorite artist. I like so much music, so many different styles of music as well I'd probably say my favourite genres. My favourite genres would probably be I love classical music of all sorts, especially classical music of the 20th century. I think it was a time when classical music became much more free of kind of the old conventions and much more political and just much more interesting, I think as well. But I also love heavy metal music. I grew up listening to heavy metal music and that stayed with me forever. And I do also love other sorts of rock music and indie music and some electronic music. Some 80s pop music has kind of grown on me over the over the last few years as well. So, um, I feel like my horizons are broadening all the time. Um, but I couldn't possibly choose a favorite artist. Um, how about you, vedant? Do you have a favorite style of music or artist?
Speaker 1I don't really have a favorite artist, but there is, I mean, my. I don't know why or how, but my music interests kind of they roughly stay the same but they also change quite a lot. Like my, genre changes quite a lot. Currently it's like EDM, techno style. So, I really like that. I like a bit of rock music as well, like bands like ACDC and Nirvana. Um, I also sometimes rarely listen to pop. Um, I like hip-hop a lot hip-hop, rap and yeah that's great.
Speaker 2It sounds like you have a really broad um taste in music.
Speaker 1You like a lot of different things yeah, I mean nowadays, I guess my main focus I'm trying to like listen to more things, but I guess nowadays, for like the past few months, like almost a year, has been like EDM music. Okay, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2That's really fascinating and I think, working in the music industry, it's very important to listen to all types of music and to become familiar with all types of music, even if it's things you don't necessarily like. It's useful to know the difference between, like, a really good EDM track and maybe a not so good EDM track as well, and to really really understand what the trends are and what people are really listening to currently and some of the history and all of that stuff. So that's um, it's great that you're listening to so much. So, yeah, really cool thank you.
Speaker 1Can you tell me more about what got you into what you do and who sparked your interest, or what sparked your interest into the music industry?
Speaker 2in terms of being a music listener. I was actually quite late into getting interested in music. It wasn't until I was maybe 12 years old I really started to listen to music at all. At 13 I bought my first musical instrument, which was an electric guitar, and I've continued to play that ever since, and at the time I was very much into, again, rock and heavy metal. Those are my main things.
Speaker 2But then, beyond that, I went to university when I was a little bit older and studied music, and the thing that I was most interested in at university was music with moving images, and especially film music, tv music and how music is affected by the images that it's married to, and vice versa as well.
Speaker 2That was kind of the thing that pulled me most during my studies, and it was after university that I managed to get a job, very fortunately, working with orchestras, that I managed to get a job, very fortunately, working with orchestras, and it was through working with orchestras that I became really interested in music publishing in particular, because we worked a lot with music publishers in my role, and it's also music publishers and music labels that are the agents for music being used in film and in TV, and so I found an opportunity where I could work in both worlds and that's very much what I'm doing now, so kind of straddling that line between music and everything that that involves, but also moving images, film, tv, advertising and all of that.
Speaker 2So yeah, I think my love of film and my love of TV are two big things that propelled me in this direction as well. But in terms of music generally, yeah, I'm not sure. I think one day I decided I liked music and I've just never looked back really yeah, have you met many big artists during your time working in the space.
Speaker 2I can't say that. I have to be honest. No, I very much work on the back end of things. I work in a world where lots of people work remotely as well. So rather than going to an office and meeting artists and this sort of thing, I work at home entirely. We, our company, is spread all across the world. We have people that work in the US, we have people that work in Europe and we have people that work in Asia as well. So it's very much just working at home, kind of at a computer, that sort of thing. So I don't get to meet artists very often. But when I worked in orchestras I got to meet a lot of big names in the classical music world, lots of conductors, lots of amazing soloists as well, from all over the world. So no, my ambitions to meet lots of big artists hasn't really been fulfilled yet, but in time maybe I'll get to meet a few.
Speaker 1Good luck on your journey. I hope one day you get to meet many different big artists.
Speaker 2Thank you yeah.
Speaker 1So you just mentioned that you used to work with orchestras after you got out of university or college. Did you play any instruments in the orchestra or were you part of the back end technical team?
Speaker 2I was part of the back end team, but I did work very closely with the orchestral players. My role was the orchestra librarian and basically what that involves is preparing all of the sheet music that all of the players and the conductors use for every recording, for every performance, for every rehearsal and so on. So one of the orchestras I worked for was a big London orchestra and they have up to 100 players at a time doing a concert 100 players at a time doing a concert and my job would be to make sure that we have all of the sheet music for all of those players, that that music ends up at the right place at the right time, for example, in the rehearsal studio, when the recording studio or at the concert. And that also involved hiring music, buying music and marking up music very manually, in pencil sometimes, to make sure that all of the correct performance notes and things like that are in there.
Speaker 2I also would follow the orchestra on tour as well, so we would go all over Europe and around the world playing concerts night after night and I'd be in charge of making sure that all of the music was in the right place, where it needs to be. If anything went missing, then I would get it replaced and I'd also make sure that the conductor had their music and that they were happy as well. So it was kind of in between the front end and the back end, I would say. I also worked for a few years for an opera company in the UK and similarly that involved making sure that everybody on the front end and the back end had the music that they need. So everyone involved in the staging, the stage, directions, all of this kind of stuff, as well as the orchestra performers and the singers and the chorus as well, so making sure everybody has the music that they need to do their job.
Speaker 1Wow, that sounds very interesting. How was your experience travelling across the world and across Europe with orchestras it?
Speaker 2was a lot of fun. It was very, very busy. A typical day on tour with the orchestra would be waking up early after having some breakfast, piling into a coach or onto a train and traveling to the next city or the next country. Um we'd arrive, we'd quickly get the stage set up, I would make sure all of the players have their music so they could rehearse before the concert and then, uh, they would perform their concert and then we'd pack up um, go back to the hotel and then the next day we'd do it all over again, travel to the next country and so on. So it's very fast paced.
Speaker 2Um, sometimes some emergencies would come up, like, for example um one of the players might lose their sheet music and so I'd then have to go and source a replacement for them. Um, fortunately, I would always make sure that we had backups, even if that was, for example, p PDF copies of the sheet music from every player, so we could produce copies if needs be. It would also be putting the conductor's score out onto the podium on the stage ahead of the concert, so that they have everything that they need. That was essentially just making sure the music gets to the right place and is taken care of all the time, so the concerts run very, very smoothly. But, um, yeah, it was a lot of fun and always big groups of people and the orchestral players were always fascinating people to work with as well all sorts yeah, that sounds like that sounds extremely fun.
Speaker 1Like I don't, I always wondered what it would be like to be part of like an orchestra or a band that would move across the world. So from what you, yeah it's very fun it is?
Speaker 2yeah, it is. It is a lot of fun. It can be stressful, um, and it can evolve a lot of work, but yeah, it's very rewarding, um, especially in the classical music world. Um, I think a lot of the perspective in the UK certainly is that orchestral music, classical music, is very much for older people. So you know, a typical concert in the UK, everybody in the audience will be at least 60 years old a lot of the time. But when you travel to other parts of the world you find that that's not the case at all. I remember we did some concerts in South Korea and the audience was absolutely full of young people. We did some concerts in South Korea and the audience was absolutely full of young people and that was especially inspiring to see how other parts of the world engage with classical music, which I think certainly in the UK is seen as more of a dying art form, but I think in other parts of the world it's very much alive. So that was really really inspiring part of it as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, I learned a lot from what you said throughout this interview and I would just like to say thank you so much for coming on my show. I learned so much and it was extremely fun to talk to you no, thank you for inviting me on. It's really nice to talk to you as well yeah, I mean, I hope one day we can meet and talk more that would be amazing.
Speaker 2Yeah, if ever I'm in singapore or um, if ever you come to the uk, then you should definitely hit us up as well yeah, definitely, dear listeners, follow my facebook page, curious vedant, to get updates on my upcoming episodes.
Speaker 1to listen at leisure on your phone and get notified about future episodes, subscribe by searching for Curious Vedant. Wherever you get your podcasts, such as Apple Podcasts, spotify, stitcher, youtube and many more, you can also listen to my show on CuriousVedantcom. Thank you for listening to Curious Vedant and don't forget to rate and leave comments.