Kemp Brinson and Simon Linford, part II Artwork

Treble's Going

Conversations about change-ringing in North America.

Treble's Going

Kemp Brinson and Simon Linford, part II

February 26, 2021 • Episode 25

This is the second half of an interview Kemp Brinson conducted with Simon Linford; you can find the first half of the interview in episode 23.
In this half Simon and Kemp discuss the "zones" of ringing, barriers to progression, and goals & aspirations in ringing.
Next we hear about the genesis and structure of the Birmingham School of Bell Ringing, a program of St. Martin's Guild.
Kemp and Simon discuss the challenges of ringing long lengths, and particularly ultra-peals that push the boundaries of ringing. (See, for instance 20064 spliced surprise maximus or 210 minor methods all-the-work.)
Finally, an update on St. John's, Hanley. Followed by another update: they have a home!

Thank you, friends.

Matthew Austin
From Kent School in Connecticut, I'm Matt Austin with treble's going. Today we're back with another installment from Kemp Brinson. This is the second half of his interview with Simon Linford, Birmingham ringer and current president of the Central Council. The first half you can find in Episode 23. In a moment, Kemp and I briefly chat about his ringing. And then I hope you enjoy the conclusion of Kemp's conversation with Simon. So, Kemp, welcome back. This is going to be the second half of an interview you did with Simon Linford. And I forgot to mention it last time, but these are about two years old or so. And we're gonna have him on at the end to do a little bit of an update on some of these projects. But we've had heard your voice a bunch, and I'm not sure that many ringers outside of the East Coast know you. So first of all, you you mentioned that you live in Central Florida, and the nearest tower is three and a half hours away. Would that be Miami for you?

Kemp Brinson
That is exactly right.

Matthew Austin
So getting down to Miami is quite attractive. But you've done a lot of ringing in a lot of other places. If you pull up Bellboard and look up Kemp Brinson there's a lot of Philadelphia, Washington, New York, London... where did you learn to ring and how did you get so hooked on it?

Kemp Brinson
So my first exposure to ringing was through musical handbell ringing, I refuse to use the T word -- tune ringing -- because that doesn't really describe it for me, but when I was a child, my church got a set of handbells and my mother started ringing in the handbell choir there just as it was getting started. And it was kind of her thing to do to get out of the house and away from her children one night a week. And, you know, it looked kind of interesting to me. So one evening I asked her, "Hey, can I come too?" And they still needed ringers and so she said, "Yeah, I guess so. This was kind of my thing, but why not?" And and so I joined the church handbell choir, I was about 11 years old, I learned to read music through ringing handbells and I was turned out I was pretty good at it. And so when I went to college, I rang in a kind of a semi professional community handbell choir that's very well known throughout the world called the Raleigh Ringers. This was in Raleigh, North Carolina, I'm from North Carolina. And so we toured all over the place and played concerts and, made albums and I had a really good time doing that in college. And we used to do as part of the Raleigh ringers, a demonstration of change ringing: we would ring just a simple course of plain hunt on six bells. And the ringers in the group that were into that, you know, knew it well enough to do that. And they taught me how to how to ring plain hunt. We didn't ring it in a way that experienced change ringers would call proper, you know, because we used a typical handbell musical handbell ringer's circular motion as opposed to an up and down handstroke, backstroke. And we also did not leave a handstroke gap. So it was a little off, but it sounded cool. So I short version of all of that is that I, I knew what change ringing was and had some very minimal exposure to it, and could tell that it was something I would really enjoy. If I ever had the time and inclination to get involved. Now there is a tower in Raleigh. I never, never rang there. While I was in college, I was too busy with school and with the Raleigh ringers. But then I went to law school, and I went to law school in Washington DC at George Washington University. And I, I knew about the cathedral, I knew there were bells there, I looked them up and learned about the other tower in town, at the post office. And so as soon as I arrived, I sent an email to the band and said, Hey, I'm new in town, I'm really interested in seeing the bells and learning about this and maybe learning to do it. And they invited me up to to take a look. And I was hooked immediately.

Matthew Austin
And while you were there, I took a look at your record in Bellboard and saw lots of quarters that you were doing there. Am I correct that the Washington Ringing Society has a pretty regular schedule of when they're ringing performances, I should say when when ringing is going on, a pretty regular schedule of ringing performances and they're able to bring people up into the practice of ringing quarters and ringing peals that way?

Kemp Brinson
I think that's accurate. And I know that and I'm pretty sure that they they're doing it more or less the same way now as they did back then maybe even on the exact same nights. But I remember it was very regular. We always had, you know, Tuesdays Tuesday, Wednesday at the cathedral, Thursday at the post office, and then Sunday at the cathedral and every major national holiday there would be a quarter peal scheduled at the post office. Then in addition to that, there was Ann and Eddie Martin kind of pulled me into ringing handbells with them, which is where I really learned to ring handbills doing that so if I had wanted to in theory, I could have rung regularly four times a week, just being in Washington, which is that's an England level of ringing that you don't often get outside of the UK. So I was very lucky to have that many opportunities to ring during my early kind of formative ringing years and I think they're pretty much doing a similar schedule, you know, pre-COVID anyway, now.

Matthew Austin
Well speaking of UK-level ringing, let's go ahead and get back to the second half of your interview from 2018 with Simon Linford.

Kemp Brinson
A bit ago, you alluded to what you would call the zones the blue and the black zone, why don't you explain what that is?

Simon Linford
Now, that was what what I can't remember why it was like that. I remember why it was. It stemmed from a comment that someone made in the ringing world in a letter immediately after a 12 bell competition, and I think it was a 12 bell competition in Exeter. Anyway, it doesn't really matter where it was. But this comment, this comment was something along the lines of "I bet none, I bet none of them are back ringing plain bob doubles the following morning in their home tower." So we know that it was a it was a it was a sort not an allegation, but an inference that, that these sort of super, super ringers ringing this this top level in this 12-bell competition was somehow not ordinary, but somehow not doing the graft of ringing Bob doubles on a Sunday morning with their struggling local band. And what the more I thought about it, the more I wondered why there was there was a sort of gulf between what why that why would that have been said why it was in this in ringing, that people don't aspire in the same way as they do in in sports and things. And I thought, What is stopping and then I became interested in what it was that was stopping ringers progress, because I thought that barriers to progression might be might be there might be some sort of resentment from that. So I studied it, I spent a lot of time thinking about and talking to people. And I came up with this idea that there were actually three different zones of learning. And that there were to work to a certain points on on this curve, that people found very, very difficult to get across. And I call them discontinuities, I think I call them discontinuities in the learning curve. And, and there are two that I identified, I thought people start off and they ring their ring plain hunt. And then they get they get through methods, which are essentially treble dominated, you're doing it by a formula, your your plain Bobs, your Grandsire, Kent, all these things where you learn it by the treble. And then you get to the point where your next step is surprise minor. And and all of a sudden, you go from ringing by a formula and treble dominated formula to learning a blue line that you're following where your place changes in a more difficult way. And I think and that is a, that is a significant jump. And lots of people don't get over that. They just can't do it. So that's, that's the first discontinuity. And that was my Blue Zone was that first zone and it's sort of a bit analogous to, to skiing.

Kemp Brinson
So Blue Zone is Bell handling up to Kent, Oxford.

Simon Linford
And actually some, some people after that said, Actually, there's a zone below that. But anyways, so the first zone was all the way up to start with the first time you learn methods by the blue line, like like going to Cambridge minor, was the first jump. And then what I call the red zone was from Cambridge minor, up, and then it's all included all this, what we're talking about near surprise, major methods, surprise royal, etc. But then I thought there's another and there's a lot of people in, in that block. But then there's another zone, which I call black. And, and it was it was misunderstood what exactly what I meant by black. And I said, you can only really tell the black zone ringer when you see people ring, Bristol Maximus or something like that there is this innate innate ability to learn and ring which doesn't really get discovered, until you look at until you ring on more bells. And actually, the black zone ended up becoming almost defined by the start of the black zone was Bristol Maximus. And it's become a term that is associated with all things difficult. And really the discontinuity between the red zone and the black zone, is it what it's partly about this innate ability, because you've got to be able to ring well, in order to be able to ring on and progress on 12, you've got to be good enough to get asked into 12 bell ringing, you've got to get into those bands. You also got to be in the right place. There's a huge amount about opportunity and where you are, is that is another part of this discontinuity. So that's the next step. And it was quite difficult to define. But there's it's it's I don't know how many people it is a small number of 1000 I suppose.

Kemp Brinson
Yeah, I think I think back.

Simon Linford
Whereas if you if you put Where is that? What can the median ringer ring? If for instance there are 40,000 ringers and you put them in order of ability in terms of how far they progressed. That median ringer, I think is round about the person who can ring Bob doubles inside. I think that's right. And we and we say to with the with the Birmingham School of bell ringing where we are teaching people to, to ring of course, and and feeding people into local bands where plain bob doubles, plain bob minor is is, is it is a good standard in any in any tower. But you're in a city which is which is associated with blacks zoners in the extreme. Right. But you want to say to people: "no, when when you when you from your first quarter, Bob doubles, you're halfway. If you can ring Bob minor, you're in the top half. Don't Don't think that you're still a lowly plain bob doubles ringer. That really is quite a long way." I think it's important for them to realize it.

Kemp Brinson
I think that's true. My mother recently started ringing. She doesn't live near me. But I've been telling her as soon as you can ring rounds and call changes, you are a legitimate contributing member of your local band and you're a ringer. And that is a very respectable accomplishment in and of itself.

Simon Linford
Yes it is. That's it That's leads us onto it. And I will jump slightly onto onto the school. Something that we believed at the start of the Birmingham School of bell ringing was that and when we had the four towers, which would take people through the different stages of learning the ropes, and that we thought you can get anyone through the four stages, learn the ropes and and to begin to turn people into chang ringers. And around that time, a lady called Ruth Eyles who was spoke at an early ART conference. And she comes from a she's a bell ringer, but she also is involved in cycling. And she said talked about the experience that cycling has had of getting people away from the cycle club that sort of lycra clad and goggles, cyclists to what are called sportifs, which are people going out for a group ride without the pressure of performance, and that this encouragement of sportifs, and has greatly contributed to increase in cycling. And she was making the point that if you didn't have change ringing as your aspiration. If you just said to people, all you've got to be able to do is run random call changes, it might be far easier to recruit people. And we were sitting there in this conference thinking this is absolutely crazy. This is just there's no aspiration at all. And we did invite Ruth to come to Birmingham and and have a chat with us. And she did. And we went to the pub, and I think three of us and Ruth and we debated it for a couple of hours. And we didn't understand each other's point of view. But now I am sure she's right. And something we're very conscious of in the school is that you can't turn everybody who learns to ring into a change ringer, and not everyone who learns to ring wants to. So you need to make sure that once you've got a person able to ring rounds and call changes nicely. That is a perfectly valid endpoint to what they want to do. They can then they'll then go to their practice night, they'll ring on a Sunday, they'll go around to other towers, they'll enjoy all the lots and lots of the facets of ringing that we find so great, but they don't have to do the change ringing bit. Once you've got to that point and you're called okay you're a bellringer. If at that point you decide you want to do change ringing, then that's a whole different thing. But people shouldn't believe that they failed at that point. And I think we're all guilty of of that, thinking that if not gonna make it they have not made it but actually somebody can ring rounds and call changes on a Sunday morning has has made it

Kemp Brinson
So you mentioned the Birmingham school what what exactly is the Birmingham school and what what have you done there? That's that's different or interesting-

Simon Linford
The Birmingham School of ringing it's it stemmed back from a paper I sent out to a cross section of St. Martin's guild members A few years ago, which was I said, we're gonna have we're gonna have a day of brainstorming day. And the subject is, I don't know if you're familiar with the Carlsberg beer adverts from 20 years ago or so where if Carlsberg don't do such and such, but if they did, it was best such and such in the world. It became quite a catchphrase. And the title of my paper was Carlsberg don't do ringing societies. But if they did, what would it look like? If you if you took a clean sheet of paper and designed a territorial bell ringing societ- organization? What would it look like? And we had this brainstorming day with this cross section of maybe about 20 people with with no holds barred in terms of what people said, just to explore how things might be done differently from the sort of Victorian structures of association and Claire McCardell, who's one of our stars in Birmingham, in terms of energy and ideas and teaching, etc. She she wasn't able to go but she sent a paper, a PowerPoint and Tracy read this out. She said, Well, Claire sent this. And it started off "I realize this couldn't happen in my lifetime. But how I think it should be done is this." And it was a, it was a plan to have four different towers running concurrently, on a Saturday morning, teaching different stages of the learners curriculum, with people moving on and moving around, and then going back to help each other. And the effect of it would be to churn out people who could ring plain bob doubles and plain bob minor. But it was prefaced with, "of course, it's not possible." And we talked about it for a while. And then I said, Well, okay, we might, this might be challenging. But is there any reason that this couldn't be done? Is there any reason why we couldn't do this? Because all we need is, is four towers, a lot of people we've got, we've got the curriculum, we've got towers, why don't we just say we're doing it? And this was in May. So I don't know whether we voted on it or not? Probably not. So right, we're just going to do it. We might not start with all the towers, let's just start with maybe one or two towers. But basically see if we can see if it's possible. I remember phoning Claire up immediately afterwards and say, "Claire, you won't believe what's happened." She says "what?" I said, "we just agreed to do it." And she swore, but but it sort of works. So. So what we've got now is on every Saturday morning, we teach at up to four different towns, it's not usually four because it just needs too many people. And and not every tower has to run it all the time. But there's a tower at St. Paul's Birmingham where we have bell handling up to sort of being able to ring rounds. And then we have the next another tower that is doing learn the ropes level two, and another doing three and another doing four. And we and we take more recruits at the start. And everybody follows the the ART curriculum as teachers, and it's been going a few years and we charge the other big decision was we're going to charge people to learn, we've got to get people believing that they're getting something that is a value. And just all this, teaching people for free and giving people 10 minutes on the end of the rope, on a practice night in between other stuff just isn't how you do it, if you want to be taken seriously. So we charge people we're not embarrassed about it. We invest in, in giving materials to students, we give more certificates. retention is the retention is good. And and now, a few years in, I can be teaching a sort of level two class, we say four or five students, and all of the helpers have graduated from the school. And that's what we hoped would happen. And it's good because and it's two hours on a Saturday, but all the people who've graduated to the school, get it the free on Saturday morning because they're just used to it. And and are very happy to come back and do a bit of bit of additional ringing feel they're helping. We've we've had at least two people who've come through the school as learners who now have done their teaching and who can now teach, which is which was also an intention. The intention was that the school would also provide the opportunity for people to learn to teach. And we've had a bit of that. Not as much as we'd hoped. But definitely some and and lots of lots of people. So could they repeat with we're fortunate in I think it's very much a city model, it will be difficult to to do it in a rural area where towns more dispersed. I think we're fortunate that St. Martin's Guild is quite small. So people look in. And we've also got a lot of a lot of experienced ringers who don't do a huge amount of Saturday peal ringing. So people are willing to devote their time but ultimately it was a it was a it was a good idea.

Kemp Brinson
I'm impressed that many of your graduates have come back to become helpers in the program. And I know I've recently in the past year or so started doing some bell handling teaching and teaching on handbells. And I get I've gotten more and learned more from that. Requiring myself to reach a level of proficiency where I can teach someone else.

Simon Linford
Yeah, yes.

Kemp Brinson
Probably then I did actually, you know, learning from someone teaching me.

Simon Linford
Yes. And it's it. It's interesting. Running a practice, when, when people have paid people wanting or expecting a reasonable experience. It really does focus the mind on I mean, we have we have lesson plans, I'll spend the time before the practice going through who's coming, going through what my 10 different things will be and what will happen if this doesn't go right. And and we all plan that we do our lesson plans and and try and make it as effective as possible.

Kemp Brinson
Do you personally have any background in education?

Simon Linford
No. I've been educated.

Kemp Brinson
We'll all have some sort of background.

Simon Linford
I don't at all.

Kemp Brinson
What do what do you charge for these? it? Is it a monthly model or is it-

Simon Linford
It's a per attendance is five pounds per session per person.

Kemp Brinson
So not an exorbitant amount just something to show that you're committed

Simon Linford
Show that it's committed. Exactly. And we don't we don't think we don't like We're not encouraging people just to come every now and again, you've got to join with the commitment, a person might pay eight weeks, eight weeks in advance and happily, and they're expected to come. And for the helpers, the helpers all enjoy it, which is nice. But the email that goes out to all the it's quite automated behind the scenes in terms of the the email that goes out saying, who's going to which tower which helper is going to each tower, and it says on the email to the helpers, treat this like a peal or quarter peal obligation. If you're on the list to come, it's not optional. It's not like going to a practice. You are one of the helpers at this tower. On Sunday morning at 1015. You'd be and people are there. If you need if you need five, if you need five helpers at your tower, you only got four. It materially impacts what you can do,

Kemp Brinson
of course,

but it's good to be proud of it.

So how many? How many? How long? Does it take a typical student to progress through the different levels and come out the other side? It probably varies a lot.

Simon Linford
It varies a lot. I think. I think you expect people to spend about 10 ish sessions at tower A. What we've what we're finding is people spending a bit longer. It depends, particularly after tower A. When you've got people handling competently, the biggest influence on people's rate of progression is how much other ringing they do. If the only ringing they do is at school on Saturday morning, that's not particularly helpful for their progression. If they're in a band that can push them as well, and the school is providing that additional push. That's really good. But that's not the majority of cases.

Kemp Brinson
And how many graduates have you had?

Simon Linford
How many have we had all the way through? 2013? I think people have gone through I mean, we've got we've got waiting lists, we've got waiting lists at tower A now. Ringing remembers has generated big interest. we don't quite have enough teachers at the bottom level now.

Kemp Brinson
Simon, I know that you have been actively involved in some long lengths, what is it that attracts you to ringing long lengths?

Simon Linford
I haven't actually run many long lengths, which haven't also been difficult. So I do get asked in Do you want to ring in 25,000 Cambridge Maximus? Or do you want to ring 20,000 Bristol Maximus? No, I don't. Because I'd be bored silly. The long lengths I've rung have mostly been all the work spliced in as many methods as you can do. And I've run a couple of long lengths of surprise Maximus, or delight, including one the other week, which I rang in because I was calling it. But a long length per se is not what I'm that keen on. But I'm interested in the technical the intellectual challenge of ringing multi-spliced for a long period of time. So we've now got the record length of spliced surprise major all the work, which was 22,400 and 100 methods, is probably the crowning achievement. And we got the most methods on 10. Was it 56 did we ring? The 15,000 of all the work spliced surprise royale. And the surprise Maximus record was the first one I rang and when we Rang 15,000 or so. Back in the 1980s All Saints, Worcester the first time that composition, it was rung in a cyclic plan.

Kemp Brinson
I pulled it up on Bellboard looks like 1993 Does that sound right?

Simon Linford
was in 1993? Yes. All Saints, Worcester. I was young. [aside] I was young then. and then of course that's the one that was broken at Tulloch. Last summer 20,000 all the work in 40 methods or 39 all the work Maximus which is fantastic. And we're ringing the double length peal of 14 spliced 14 in on December the 28th. At Martin's Birmingham. And I've got one more to come, which we've been for once and sadly lost, but we'll have it next year. But that's that's why really that's what I really like. Is is those maximum spliced because I think hopefully, they they'll be records that are just that they're they're done.

Kemp Brinson
I understand what it is that you are attracted to. But why do you think you're attracted to that? You know, what, I know what kind of itch do you have that doing that scratches?

Simon Linford
Oh, I don't know, doing things or doing things that are just only just possible. It's it's almost it's almost the thrill of when you when you first have an idea. And you say what do you think we could do this? Do you think? I mean, I mean that with a surprise major, the first the first challenge, which was just going to 67, which was triple length. And that was a thing we could do it. And then shortly after, after we scored the 67 I think I sent an email within, within a week to to everybody in the band and said, I don't need to even ask you this, but we're going to go for 100 so it's so it's it's it's what's going through things that you don't think you can quite do and doing it.

Kemp Brinson
Well, that could be a motivating factor for anyone at any level. Can you

Simon Linford
I think it is yes. Yeah.

Kemp Brinson
And I think maybe that's that's what attracted all of us to the hobby is no matter what you what you can accomplish and what you do accomplish there's there's always some next step to challenge you that will be interesting to you to tackle.

Simon Linford
There's always a next step that's right. I feel that one of the hardest actually was. Again this was when I was master of the College Youths and I'd said I'd said before I was Master College Youths sometime before in in us in a speech at a College Youths dinner, that it was my intention before I finished being master, which was quite presumptuous because I wasn't even close being Master that College Youths which would push them I think the words were will push three records significant records, so far out of sight that no one will go for them again in our lifetimes. And that that people remembered I'd said that. So the the the all work, surprise major was one of them. A couple of them, others were done on handbells and didn't involve me. But another thing we did, which was right on the edge of what was possible, was when we rang four peals of Maximus, on the same day at different rings of 12 in the City of London. And that was only just possible because we had to start, it was solely driven by the starting and end times. And the fact that these rings of bells were quite heavy. So we had to start at St. Giles, Cripplegate at half past six in the morning, and ring a fast peal. And then we had to pretty much run to Cripplegate where we rang out another peal it starting about 10 o'clock. And then eating whilst running we rang a peal at St. Sepulchre's in the afternoon, and then starting at half past six with a deadline of having the bell silent by quarter to 10. We ran a very fast peal on the old 12 at St. Michael's, Cornhill. So so all these peals, we got these four peals of Maximus, they were all really really fast. The timing was such that we couldn't even use the same toilet. So we had a plan for who was going to go to which toilets who was going to eat where, because we just didn't have time in between meals to to do anything other than get to the other tower and via toilet. And and it was achieved. But it was tough.

Kemp Brinson
What do you think the most challenging aspect of those sorts of feats and of the long lengths is is it a mental or physical challenge?

Simon Linford
Yeah, it's both. It's both the mental one is interesting. So with it with a long length of spliced you, you don't go into a peal of spliced at that level without knowing you could ring it perfectly. So it's a it's a prerequisite that you could go through the entire composition the night before or whatever, going through every single lead of every single method and not make a single error or hesitation that's that's a given an absolute requirement. But in real life, you can't do it. Because your your mind wanders you, you get tired of the 22,000... I mean, it was very good. But but by the end, I think looking back on on the notes of it, we were averaging a couple of mistakes each per part. Even even people say after after 10 hours of not eating, drinking, standing up ringing spliced changing method every minute, your brain just it just does odd things. You go wrong in first place Cambridge, I mean, you just do. So I suppose it is interesting how, what happens to you after that long?

Kemp Brinson
You know, someone who's never done anything like that? How do you cope with that? How do you learn to you know, what, what do you do to prepare for that? And what have you learned?

Simon Linford
Yeah, that you get to know and those who do these types of peal are very good at knowing exactly how well you need to know something. And I don't know beyond that, I don't know, I don't think there's anything you do differently. Other than other than know how well you need to know something, which gives you the confidence that you know, you're going to be able to do it. And there's a bit of there's a bit of peer pressure, I suppose you don't want to be you don't want to be the first person to make a trip. You want to keep that the term clean sheet is typically used. You want to keep a clean sheet even if you can't keep a clean sheet in the whole thing. You want to keep clean sheets for a few parts. That's just sort of self respect.

Yeah, I found that any bit of ringing I've ever done any quarter peal I've ever rung in no matter what it is. I just say to myself for hours and even days or weeks beforehand. I don't want to be the one that causes this to go wrong. If it goes wrong. There's no I'm not angry about it, you know, but I don't want to be the one who made it go wrong. And it's that peer pressure not to disappoint my friends and yes, and others ringing with me that that causes me to step up. You know what

It used to be, It used to be very common when we were young and first ringing in peals at Birmingham Cathedral. When Rod Ppipe was conducting. It was it was a phrase we always used to say to each other and it was the prayer because Rod was harsh he would he would jump on you very quickly to put you right. And in really difficult things we should say people used to say a prayer and it was "please God, don't let it be me."

Kemp Brinson
Do you have any particular memorable, particularly memorable experiences with long length attempts that went wrong or fouled out in some way,

Simon Linford
The most tragic, and I'm not gonna say who it was. But the most tragic was in the first time and the first time we went for the 100 all the work, but my mind we'd been, we'd been ringing practice peals and building up for about four years, the hundred all the work. And the first time we went for it at Willesden. We were in the sixth part, going really, really nicely bells tanking along, I was sort of beginning to see it in the Ringing World. And then one member of the band, went for a piece of Kendal mint cake, and failed to quite eat it, and rang the bell down in about two whole pulls. And we just sort of stood there. And it all sort of happened in slow motion. It was great shame. And even now, I was discussing this this morning, actually, as we're walking to St. Martins from the car, because it's a similar thing happened in the long length at Tulloch. Except we weren't and ultimately we did get the 100 all the work. So we got it in the end. But it was another year, it was another year of having to learn keep these methods in my pocket all the time for another year. And Tullloch we we nearly lost due to someone low blood sugar level, desperately needing water, having to negotiate picking up this two liter bottle of water themselves because you can't help people drink anything. You can put a bottle near them. And it went all over the place and we really thought we were going to lose it. But it always to do with people failing to feed themselves. And I don't really understand why this rule that there can be no artificial feeding or drinking of people still exist in long lengths it's not because it's not what it's about. Ringing ringing these sort of ultra peals. It's not a test of whether you can satisfactorily eat a sweet or eat a cherry tomato or pour some Lucozade down you, it's about whether you can ring the methods, but you're not allowed to to help anybody. So most people don't drink anything. It's only the tenor that will have a little stepladder with a row of cherry tomatoes and glucose tablets and whatever. But yeah, that's the that's the way to get lost. Interesting, which is sort of sort of unfair.

Kemp Brinson
Well, tell me a bit about your project at Hanley.

Simon Linford
Oh, Hanley, yes. So. St. John's Hanley, Hanley is one of the sort of cause celebres, one of the few unringable rings of 10, particularly notable because they're sort of complete Gillets 1923 ring, supposed to be extremely good by the people who rang them. But they fell silent in about 1985 when the church became redundant. Not many people remember ringing ringing on them. That was when the last peal was. And I bought the church along with two developer colleagues 10 years ago or so. And with just as a commercial development, but I was particularly keen on it because it had this ring of bells, I thought I could probably get this ring the bells out somewhere else. But it's been a real, real struggle. And we've obviously we've we've restored the church and repaired the tower. And but this ring of bells, ring of bells is still still stuck in there. And there have been a couple of attempts before to make the case to the planners to remove the bells and put them somewhere else. But it's complicated by the fact that this is a it's a Grade 2 star listed building. And the bells are part of the listing, which which gives them a very, very strong link with the building from a conservation point of view. And they're in the listing because two of the bells are war memorials for their war memorials to to people of Hanley who died in the First World War. So when you look at it in conservation terms, the conservation officer would much rather that ring of bells was silent, but safe in the town where it is from linked to the building, it is linked to then ringing somewhere else, and to put the arguments. So we've and we've actually got so an attempt to move them and take them to stone fell apart five years ago, six years ago, and we are in the middle of and actually it's going to planning committee this Thursday, this Thursday, to take them out again and to take them to Stafford and even though we've got a better case than last time, and nobody's objected and Historic England who are an arbiter of decisions on Grade 2 star listed buildings are in favor and the war memorials trust are in favor. The Conservation Officer isn't. So we go into planning committee with a recommendation from the planning officers to refuse this application. So they would rather this ring of bells stayed stuck at the top of the tower not being rung, than form part of a new ring of 12 in Stafford, where people can go and see and hear these war memorials. So it's a it's a complicated case in planning and conservation terms. It's difficult for ringers, I think to, to understand why it's just not an obvious thing to do. But it's very, very complex. And it's, it's a tough one, because lots of people that I know ringers will say, "oh, what's happening? What's happening Hanley, what's happening at Hanley?" And I've got about 10 years of saying, "well, not a lot at the moment." If we don't get them out this time, I'm not sure what we'll do. It's just not quite practical, restoring them where they are. I feel a bit guilty, really.

Kemp Brinson
Guilty? Why?

Simon Linford
Well, because I own this, it'd be bad enough. Because Because this ring of 10, which is unringable, is owned by a ringer. I have failed to get this ring of bells out.

Kemp Brinson
So you know, I feel as you do that, you know, it makes more sense to have it rung. One of I'm a musician and one of the things that is a tragedy to me is to see a Stradivarius in a museum.

Simon Linford
Right.

Kemp Brinson
You know, there's even though there is risk, even though there is yes, some potential for harm, or, or something for it to be out in the world being heard. You know, there is there's nothing to be gained for it to be covered in dust that the existence of the object-

Simon Linford
Even worse than that. It's a Stradivarius in a case that you can't look in.

Kemp Brinson
Right, right.

Simon Linford
Yeah, it's not even on display. You can't see it.

Kemp Brinson
But at the same time, it's not unlike a gravestone, or, you know, a shipwreck where many people died. And so you can see the the tension, I would imagine.

Simon Linford
Yeah, it's an interesting case. I've said to Robert Lewis at the ring, I'll write an article to the for the Ringing World explaining why, what the conservation argument is, because it's difficult. When we had the first application. It was 2010. And lots of ringers wrote in because you with with letters of support, oh, yes, these bells are great, they need to move, they need to move so they can be rung again. But most of the letters in support that were written by ringers were actually put on the side of leaving the bells where they were, because the planning officers saw them as as expressions how good the bells are, and hence even more reason for for leaving, they work.

Kemp Brinson
I see.

Simon Linford
So it is difficult.

Kemp Brinson
Turning to a slightly different matter. I tried to you know, although I don't get to hear many bells in person, I try to listen to as many different recordings YouTube videos, you know, all the various, you know, commercially available recordings of bell ringing as I possibly can. And if I hear a ring of bells that I can tell isn't, you know, modern? Yes, you know, not made within the last 50 years. And it sounds truly amazing. I go and look at what they are. And more often than not, they are Gillets.

Simon Linford
Okay, yeah.

Kemp Brinson
Do you feel that? Is there? Do you feel the same way about Gillets? Or do you think there's anything special about this particular ring, above and beyond the normal output from from the foundry?

Simon Linford
Oh, I think Gillet, Gillet is a particular sound. There are there are fine rings of 10 by Taylors or fine rings of 10 by by Whitechapel. That just sounds slightly different. Lots of ringers have their preference. I think there's lots of people that are passionate about the Gillet sound, the fact that there aren't so many of them is part of the attraction, the fact that they are a complete ring as well. They were never added to or they were think they were cast at the same time. So it's a fact that it's I think it would be just as interesting if there were a complete Taylor 10 that were were unrung. The fact that they're one of the few complete Gillet tens just adds a little bit to the story, I suppose.

Kemp Brinson
I'd like to to close by asking you a question that I hope to ask everyone that I that I talk to who is a ringer. And that is, you know, fundamentally, why do you ring? What does this hobby or some would call it, you know, a lifestyle do for you and why?

Simon Linford
It's a very good question. Sometimes think of it the other way around what what aspects are ringing if you took them away, would cause me not to do it anymore. One is definitely the social side of it. If it was if it was purely a personal pursuit of excellence or pursuit of records or whatever, I don't think I'd do it do it in the company of friends. I remember once after, when I lived in Jersey Channel Islands for 10 years and used to fly over for peals of spliced surprise Maximus in the City of London once a month. And I remember after one particularly unsuccessful run of peals when I think the organizer was getting a bit of stick for the fact that I was flying all this way for four failed attempts. I sent him a postcard. And I said, I will always fly to London to lose a peal with friends, and never to ring one without.

Kemp Brinson
That's perfect.

Simon Linford
So I think there's social side i like i like the pursuit of excellence. I like to be fair I like the fact I'm doing something I'm good at. I don't do many things I'm not good at my wife knows that. I don't do a lot of swimming. But I like all those aspects of performance. And the friends I've got.

Kemp Brinson
How did you first get started, what prompted you to try it for the first time?

Simpon Linford
My father was rector of the church in Cannock where there was a particularly strong ringing group. We'd sort of got influenced by bells at his previous church, which was Sedgley, where he'd walked, he'd done a sponsored walk to get the bells restored, at All Saints, Sedgley. My sister who is slightly older than me, she had her first couple of lessons, I think, at Sedgley and then started to learn to ring when we moved to Cannock. And I saw how much Diana was enjoying it, and I wanted to do it as well. I think there was an element of, sort of, wanting to spoil something that my big sister felt was her thing. I'm sure there was an element of that. Oh, well, I think she forgives me.

Kemp Brinson
Does she still ring?

Simon Linford
She does.

Kemp Brinson
Wonderful. Well, Simon, it's been an absolute pleasure. If someone wanted to learn more about Project Pickled Egg, where would they go?

Simon Linford.
All of the articles have been published in The Ringing World and are on the change ringing wiki. So I think if you search for change ringing wiki-

Kemp Brinson
wiki.changeringing.co.uk

Simon Linford
Sounds right. They're all there. And then in all good bookshops, some time early next year I think there'll be probably up publications from the Association of Ringing Teachers and the Ringing World is also going to be involved in producing some publications. So it won't be hidden.

Kemp Brinson
Great. And if someone is interested in the Birmingham School how would they get more information about that?

Simon Linford
Birmingham School is, if you put Birmingham School of Bell Ringing, search for that you'll find it. I think it's birminghambells.something.

Kemp Brinson
Well, Simon, thank you for your time, this has been an absolute pleasure talking to you and getting to know you and I've learned a tremendous amount.

Simon Linford
Thank you very much, it's good to talk to you.

Matthew Austin
Simon Linford, welcome back to Treble's Going and thank you for taking a few minutes to update us on some matters from this second half of your interview with Kemp Brinson. I wanted to ask you first of all about the Birmingham School because I love the model--I don't know if you know, but I'm a schoolteacher, so the idea of how bringing people into a course and a committed sequence, whether it's a semester's worth of classes every day or it's every Saturday morning for ten weeks, committing to something. You know, I love seeing how you've put that into effect in Birmingham and seen such good results. That said, in the last year, year-and-a-half most of us have not been able to ring together. How has the Birmingham School stayed together during that time? Have you been running virtual practices, have you looked at how you're going to get things started back up once we reopen? What's going on with the Birmingham School these days?

Simon Linford
The school itself doesn't run its own Ringing Room practices per se. The ringers who have come through the school or were benefitting from the school still are members of local bands and those local bands will have their practices. That was a key feature of the school: it is still people who are also learning with their local bands. So they get integrated with a band straight away if they haven't come from a band in the first place. So we are in touch with everybody. I mean, most of the people at the school are members of the St. Martin's Guild, and the St. Martin's Guild is very good at running online activities and keeping people enthused. So we do hope that we'll come out the other side with people who've learned at the school still being very keen, and hopefully having made progress. It is going to be very interesting to see how the members whose method ringing has really progressed quite well--I think you'd expect we might find this all around the world--people whose method ringing has progressed when they are unshackled from the difficulty of actually having to pull a rope. And having to go back to real life where actually ringing methods at the same time as pulling a rope and catching the sally can be a challenge. One thing that the school has been doing, certainly the leadership of the school, is we have been developing an idea we've had for some time of creating something rather bigger, we grandly call it the Birmingham University of Bell Ringing. We've been looking for some time to find our own building, either buy one or build one, where we can bring together the four towers, the four rings of bells we need, to run the school on a Saturday through the different levels of progress and actually have them all in the same place. And we think we've found somewhere now, and we're negotiating with the council on the land where we want to add a tower. We want to actually have a tower that's shaped like a pyramid, we've nicknamed it "the Pyramid Stage" and I'm sure that will stick. So we're currently designing the Pyramid Stage, and hopefully when we're out of the pandemic we'll be able to build the Pyramid Stage and the Birmingham University of Bell Ringing will exist and we'll be able to widen the attraction of ringing to a broader audience. One of the things we see and we want to break down is the very narrow focus of ringing as a, well, in Britain, as a sort of white middle-class activity. Birmingham's a multicultural city and to not open ourselves up to half the population of our city is a bit of an own goal. So we hope that a secular ringing center which is going to be in a public park in Birmingham will bring ringing to the entire population of the city.

Matthew Austin
Oh, fascinating. I hope to be seeing work on it next time I'm over there. So, the other thing I wanted to ask you about--and you said that this is one of the most common questions you get--is for an update on Hanley.

Simon Linford
Ah, right, well, yes. Hanley has had a happy ending, although it's an ending that isn't quite complete. The existing ten bells from Hanley have been taken out now and two bells have been added to the ring and they're forming a new ring of twelve bells which are being hung in St. Mary's church in Stafford--Stafford is not far from Hanley, Hanley is a part of Stoke-on-Trent--and the twelve bells are ready, the ringers are waiting to ring them, but of course the pandemic has stopped the completion of the project. But lots of ringers are looking forward to ringing on the old ring of ten, but as a new ring of twelve in Stafford.

Matthew Austin
Wonderful. And just out of curiosity, I know that... is it that one of the bells was actually a memorial?

Simon Linford
Yes. The complication of the Hanley story was that the bells were a war memorial, it was actually the Great War, the First World War. And one of the bells was given as a memorial to some choir boys, another was a general war memorial. So there was a very, very strong link between the bells and the church which meant that there are complicated heritage questions and heritage conservation questions in England which linked the bells with the setting that they were in. And it was very difficult to break that. We did eventually come up with the argument, it was a very, very close call with the planning authorities who decided the case, but ultimately a successful one. It is going to become- one of the things that has accelerated in the UK is the number of rings of bells that we are going to lose over the next ten to fifteen years. The pandemic is vastly accelerating the rate at which churches are going to close. One diocese has been said to be expected to close twenty-five percent of its buildings. That means that with five thousand rings of bells it could easily be the case that in ten to fifteen years' time there are only four thousand rings of bells, and that's going to have a dramatic impact on what we do, and a large problem of what to do, or opportunity of what to do with rings of bells that come out of churches that are closed for worship. And that's something that the Central Council, we are very, very attuned to.

Matthew Austin
Well, we thank you for all your work getting this ring of bells at least on its way towards a place where it will be heard again, and look forward to hearing what they sound like in St. Mary's.

Simon Linford
Yes, I think they should sound superb.

Matthew Austin
Thank you again, Simon, for all your time, both with Kemp and these little updates, and I wish you happy ringing as soon as we can get back- well, happy ringing anywhere, and happy handling once we're getting back into our towers.

Simon Linford
Thank you, we're looking forward to it.

Matthew Austin
Once again, that was the second half of Kemp Brinson's interview with Simon Linford of Birmingham. On our next episode we'll hear from eight different Kent School ringers through the decades.

We'd love to hear your feedback: tell us what you're ringing, how you're doing, wht you'd like to hear, whom you'd like to hear from. Email treblesgoingpodcast@gmail.com or head to treblesgoing.com where you can find show notes, listen to other episodes, subscribe to the show, leave a comment on an episode, or contact us. If you liked the show please mention it to your fellow ringers. Thank you for listening, friends.