Dr. Khama Ennis, Faces of Medicine

In this episode of Armchair Historians, Anne-Marie Cannon sits down with Dr. Khama Ennis, emergency physician and creator of Faces of Medicine, a documentary and podcast that shares the powerful, candid stories of Black women physicians in the United States.

The conversation begins with Dr. Ennis’s favorite history: Dr. Rebecca Lee Crumpler, the first Black woman to earn a medical degree in the U.S., graduating in 1864 at the end of the Civil War. From there, we explore how that legacy echoes into the present—especially when only 2.8% of U.S. physicians are Black women.

Together, Anne-Marie and Dr. Ennis discuss:

• Why representation in medicine is directly connected to health equity
• The hidden labor of navigating bias in professional spaces
• “Baked-in” systemic gaps in healthcare algorithms
• The importance of storytelling in improving outcomes
• What it means to “always reach back and pull forward”

This episode is not about blame—it’s about humanity, curiosity, and expanding the stories we carry.

Learn More & Watch

🎥 Faces of Medicine (Official Website):
https://www.facesofmedicine.org/

🎙️ Faces of Medicine Podcast:
Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all major platforms (search “Faces of Medicine”).

🎬 Host a Screening (via Kinema):
Information about hosting a community, school, or organizational screening can be found here:
https://kinema.com/films/faces-of-medicine

💛 Support the Project (Fiscal Sponsor – Fractured Atlas):
Donation information is available through the official website above.

If this episode resonated, consider watching the documentary, sharing the podcast, or bringing a screening to your community.

Transcript

0:06

Hello fellow. I'm chair Historians. Welcome to the show. I'm Annmarie Cannon, your host, historical fiction author, and curious soul, always chasing the human side of history. Show notes include my website, links to content discussed in the episode, how to support the show, and a free short story download that introduces readers to bedlam from my soon to be released historical fiction series. On this podcast, my guests share the history they love most and we experience it through their eyes, what fascinates them, what they've uncovered, and why the story still matters. Let's get into it.

Anne Marie 0:54

Hello fellow armchair historians. I'm Anne-Marie Cannon. Today I'm joined by Dr. Kama Ennis, creator of Faces of Medicine, a documentary and podcast sharing the stories of black women physicians in the us. We begin with her favorite history, Dr. Rebecca Lee Crumpler. The first black woman to earn an MD in America graduating in 1864, and we trace how that legacy echoes into the present, especially when only 2.8% of US physicians are black women. This episode is about representation, health equity, and the power of storytelling to change what we think we know links to the film podcast and how to host a screening are in the show notes. Let's get into it. Dr. Kaa Ennis. Welcome to the show and thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. We always start out with the question, what is your favorite history that we're gonna be talking about today? So one of my favorite histories is out of, uh, Rebecca Lee Crumpler. Dr. Rebecca Lee Crumpler. I only learned about her in the last five or 10 years, and she was the first black woman to earn a medical degree in the United States, and she did it in 1864. So that was before the end of the Civil War or just at the end of it? Uh, just towards the end of the Civil War. Wow. At the time, there were, I think 54,000. The estimates are that there were about 54,000 physicians in the country. 300 were women, and of those 300 women up until her none were black. Wow. Yeah, so truly a trailblazer. I'm always inspired by that idea of somebody who maybe doesn't. See themselves represented in something and yet they're able to pursue it and do it. So I'm already, you've already got me with Rebecca. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, and I think it'll start to make more sense to my listeners about where your maybe comes from. Sure. So I am a physician. I finished medical school way back when in 2002. Spent most of my career in emergency medicine before switching gears. The first step of which was creating a project called Faces of Medicine, which is a documentary, film and podcast featuring the stories of black female physicians in the US trying to really highlight these stories in an effort to increase representation, which is in itself an effort to improve health equity and outcomes across the board. Like I said, I was just telling you, I just watched the um, documentary, which was really enlightening. It was very well done. It was very, um, you know, just a lot of things that re resonated with me that I'm gonna probably mention during our conversation. But let's kind of go back to, Dr. Rebecca Lee Crumpler, and tell us a little bit about her, and I mean, obviously her story is tremendous, but let's hear a little bit more about her. Sure. I, she's one of the people, she's, you know, she's a historical figure that is. Has been relatively little known. She started out in Delaware, I think that's where she was born. And then her, she was raised by an aunt in the Philadelphia area, and I believe that aunt was a nurse. And so she grew up around caregiving and healthcare and providing healthcare in a community and in her work. And then she herself became a nurse and physicians that she worked with thought, oh my goodness, you would be an excellent physician. And I believe she was in Boston at the time. She went to the New England Female Medical College, which is now Boston University School of Medicine. And one other fun fact is that Elizabeth Blackwell, who was the first woman to earn an MD in this country, was one of her professors, one of her instructors. So she started medical school in 1860 and graduated in 1864. Not without some hardships. I think, you know, clearly if it is. Difficult or challenging now for people from underrepresented backgrounds to earn medical degrees? I can only imagine what she went through in her own educational journey. But then she completed her degree. She eventually became part of the Freedman's Bureau, providing care for, uh, enslaved people who gained freedom but without any resources after the end of the Civil War, and then came back and practiced in the Boston area. She actually, she also wrote a book, which was kind of fascinating. I can add one other thing. What was, what's the book? So she, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm blanking on the title, but she wrote a book, it'll come to me in, published in 1883 a Medical Discourse in two. Sections, I believe, something along those lines. And she essentially took people through, she took lay people through ways that they could improve their own health and wellbeing, particularly for women and children. Oh wow. Yeah. Wow. Like really accessible healthcare. Yes. Cool. So this note, you learned this after you started working on the documentary and podcast or before? Before, just not long before in the year or two beforehand. Yeah. And so was that kind of like a seed of, you know, that germinated into the projects that you've, you're working on with the, um, faces of Medicine documentary and podcast? That was definitely part of it. In my own professional journey, I was honestly looking for a way to shift gears. I'd been in emergency medicine for quite some time and for lots of different reasons. I just, as an individual, needed to move outta that clinical space and I was trying to figure out how, how to do that. When you. Go through med school and residency, you are very much indoctrinated and this is the one thing that you can do. So it took a little doing to expand my own horizons of my own capabilities in that way. And so in my desire to switch gears, I thought, and I learned about her story, I said, well, maybe what I could do is tell my story and share my story with others. And that can be, a light for people who want to go into medicine but don't see themselves in those spaces. And then I thought, well, that's one version. And one very specific history. What about collecting multiple histories and multiple stories from as many perspectives as I can to really share these stories both with people, young black girls and women who have never seen themselves in this space think that because of what they've been through or what their own personal life experience is, that it's not for them. Um, and show them. Themselves in all of these stories. And that's, that's my hope. So yeah, her story was definitely part of the seed. And I will say that the women that you interviewed especially Dr. Thea James, I wish that I could bottle her sayings and her wisdom. Um, but we'll get to that. They are. Part of that history. So at first I was like this is a pretty contemporary story. But then as I listened to the the documentary and the experiences of the women, um, it was really clear to me that this is, you know, the, the ongoing history of Dr. Rebecca I keep forgetting her name, Crumpler. And so. It seems like from listening to you talk, it's kind, it just kind of evolved into this thing that was just waiting to be found and completed. Like all the pieces were there and you found the pieces, and that seems to have been your creative process. It's like you had all that experience yourself as far as being a doctor being a woman of color, being, uh, one of the. Statistics that really stood out to me is that only 2% of doctors, is it in the United States or in the world are black females? Yeah. 2.8% of US physicians are black women. That's it. Did you know that before you started doing the research? No. No. I mean, you know it somewhat instinctively, but I didn't. I think because none of us wants to be in that position, right? Mm-hmm. Like it doesn't feel good to be an underrepresented person in a space, and it can be hard to just sort of take it, you know, absorb that information and then figure out what to do with it. So. I did the research on Rebecca Lee Crumpler and thought, how come, how come I was in my forties and so far out of medical school before I'd even heard her name? Well, I just heard her name really in the past two weeks since I was researching this. And it's like, I very powerful voice and it needs to be, the story needs to be told so. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, part of part of my own background is that my undergrad focus was medical anthropology. So stories and storytelling and the ways that people see themselves and illness and wellness and in all of these contexts has always been a part of how I look at my career in medicine and in this way, and how I look at public health as well. And. Really trying to sort out ways to improve overall public health. And you know, there are, these are the challenges of healthcare. Disparities are systemic problems and this lack of representation and lack of reflection of the, the communities that we serve is absolutely part of that puzzle. So let's go back to you becoming a doctor and like when did you decide you were gonna do that? Was there somebody in your family that was a physician? Tell us about it. So, yeah, I was very young and in the very concrete thought process of an elementary school child. Uh, so there's some, you know, there's, it's not all roses, you know, so I was probably. Seven or eight years old. I was in an elementary school where the first couple of years went as sweetly as any other elementary school and then a couple of grades. Then it got a little murky and there was hostility and I had some teachers that I could, you know, you can just feel they did not like me and I was getting notes home that I was a bad and disruptive kid. I'm a, I'm Jamaican, and, uh, you know, getting a note sent home that you were a bad and disruptive kid does not come without consequences in, in, uh, most Caribbean households. And so. So that was very, that was, that had a very big impact. And eventually one of my my kindergarten teacher and my parents got together and said, there's something, something is not adding up and pushed the school to test me.'cause said maybe she's just bored. If you give her more work, maybe she'll stop talking. And so I, they, my sister and I actually were in the same similar situations and so. They did whatever the tests were to see if we just needed more work. And I did well in the tests and similar to Dr. Stone in the film, they didn't believe my score retested me without my parents' consent. And I did better. And at that point I was put into sort of an advanced academic track. And so based on that, and in the very binary thinking of a child, I said, well, smart people are doctors or lawyers. So which 1:00 AM I gonna be? I guess I should be a doctor because they just help people. And lawyers sometimes they have to figure out if you're good or bad or what, you know, how to go about things. If I'm a doctor, all I have to do is help. And so that's what I'm gonna do. And I honestly locked in at a really young age. And that was the common thread for every, uh, everything, every decision I made after that. So how old were you when you locked into that? Seven or eight years old and look at you now. That's amazing. I, I still don't know what I wanna do, so I'm impressed. Well, that's just part of the picture. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Well, and that was something about the women that you interviewed is it seemed like there was this determination, there was blinders. Nothing would stop them from getting to the point that they got to. The other thing I noticed about some of the women, which I'm gonna have you talk about in a minute, is that none of them just do one thing. I'm on the board of this and I do that, and I do, and it's like. Wow, I'm exhausted just hearing you tick off that list of things that you're doing. So, um, these are very driven people that I think should be commended just for the fact that they persevered through you know, what they had to go through as black children and women to get to the point that they are now. Mm-hmm. So why don't you tell me about how you went about. Deciding who to interview and what to include in the documentary? Sure. So the process of gathering folks who were willing to share their stories and, and honestly willing to share them with a candor that I did not anticipate. So the, one of the first people I reached out to was Dr. Thea James, and that was because when I was in my third or fourth year of med school, she was. The attending physician when I was doing a rotation in a Boston Emergency Department, and I was in awe, like I was just completely awestruck. She had a kindness and an intelligence and the command of a space and a patient-centered focus that I just, it blew me away. And I had kept her contact information and transferred it from phone to, from paper, phone book to. Eventually a cell phone to whatever it was. The number was no longer correct, but I never forgot her name and reached out to her. And she almost without hesitation, said that she would participate, which again, blew me away. Dr. Dr. Watkins had just come in as. The new CEO of the hospital that I was working at at the time. And I had met her once or twice during her interview process and thought, well, she can say no if she wants to, but I don't have anybody else who's had that, you know, to that extent a, a leadership role. And I would love to tell that perspective if she was willing to share. Other folks came to me through word of mouth. Valerie Stone was suggested by a colleague who said, this is a person in the Boston area who's just incredible. And then, uh, Dr. Cesar was suggested by someone locally.'cause I also wanted to show, not just, you know, like people with crazy titles. I wanna see people who are in communities, in rural communities, in all parts of in all parts of where we live. And so. The, the documentary has folk, has folks who are primarily in Massachusetts. The podcast expands and includes people from all different parts of the country.'cause I didn't ever want a kid in Wisconsin to say, sure, that's a nice story, but that doesn't happen here. So is the podcast ongoing? Is there gonna be a season three? There will be a season three that might be the final season. So we're, my initial vision, if I'm quite honest, was a three or four part documentary series with all of the stories to to be told in that way. So we've recorded a number of interviews, but budgets, fundraising. Current sociopolitical environment have rendered some of that some of that not feasible at this point. So I wanted to still get the stories out'cause the stories are incredible. Um, and they're very diverse as well. It's, we all share the commonality of being black women, but we are far from a monolith and so. The podcast Will is there, we're in the midst of our second season right now and there'll be a third season coming out, late spring, early summer. And that also is called Faces of Medicine. Faces of Medicine, and it's available on Apple Podcasts on Spotify. Anywhere people get podcasts, we should be able to find it. Well, I guess I don't need to ask you why this history. I think you've made that pretty clear. But why this project? Like how did you end up like saying, oh, I'm gonna do a documentary, and it's, I mean, it's obviously you have a team of people who have produced this, and so how did you go about that process of figuring out how to put this documentary together? S So one of the, um, one of the things about emergency physicians is that we will figure out how to MacGyver just about anything. Like, okay. Like there was the seed of the idea. I woke up one day and I said, oh, I know what I have to do. I have to collect stories. I've been struggling with my own professional transition and what do I do? And I thought, I'll collect these stories. I'll put them in an anthology. I'll, I'll write a book and I'll, it'll be pretty simple. Collect stories, do some editing. I know how to write and then I'll put that out and that'll be great. And I was talking with a friend, one of my cousins actually, about it and,'cause she'd gone to film school and I said, how. Can you give me some advice on cheap camera equipment? I don't really, I don't have any money to do this, so I'm gonna just try to get something that gives me decent recordings. And, um, and she said, well, how about I help you? And it turns out that she, at the time had been working with a, an independent had a side project of, uh, doing some production work. And so I said, okay, but I have no money. And so my partner has been an artist for many years and said, well, what you do is you get fiscal sponsorship and then you ask people, and I said, I don't ask people for help. He said, you're gonna ask people now. Oh, wow. Okay. And, uh, going outside your comfort zone. What? That was one of the most stressful emails I've ever sent out. I, I, I put, I had to push them twice and I had to have a little sip of something as well, but. But, um, so I, you know, went through the process of getting fiscal sponsorship so that anybody who donates to support the project through fractured Atlas can get a tax donation and or tax, uh, deduction and all that. And so. I reached out to everyone I know and I said, I'm doing this project. If you wanna support it, that's wonderful if you don't completely understand. And people started to support the work. Mm-hmm. And so then I thought, oh my goodness, I have to do this. And honestly, the first donation came in and that was, that was it. And so my partner stepped in to work as the project manager. My cousin stepped in and on the production side of things, she helped source local crews to wherever the interviews were taking place, because I wanted to minimize the disruption and the extra labor that these women were putting forward. Mm-hmm. Knowing that they're already, as you mentioned, so busy doing so many things, and so my goal was to make it as simple and as easy as possible, so. If somebody wanted the interview to be in their home, it was in their home. If they wanted their office, it was in their office. If they wanted neither, I would rent a space. All they had to do was show up for their period of time and then leave and just really keep any efforts that they had at a minimum. Mm-hmm. Um, aside from approving the material that we used,'cause that was also very important to me, to make sure that people felt comfortable with how they were being represented both in the film and in the podcast. So every step of the way we will get, uh, get a certain amount of work done and then I'll. Run it by them for approval to make sure that we're okay to move to the next stage. So yeah, that was, and that was kind of it. And so then we got a consulting producer, a wonderful man named Monty Ross, who has been in the industry for quite some time, and he helped out with some hints. And I learned how to write a script. And a lot of it was, uh, learning on the fly, how to, how to put together a project like this. What I liked about it is that it was accessible. The way that the script was written, the information that was put out there, which, like I said, that's what I try to do with my podcast. I try to make people think about history. I try to make it accessible. And the best way to do that is through people's passion. And um, that was one of the things that I really, it was su succinct. I like that about it. So you talked about racial bias and systemic racism in the documentary, and the way that I think it came out is by everybody kind of exchanging notes about what it was like for them to be a doctor. It seemed to be a common thread, um, that wasn't like explicitly stated by anybody, but it was the stories and the experiences. And can you just talk a little bit more about that? Happy to. So I think that, when, when you're in a. Female body in male dominated spaces. When you're in a female body of color in, uh, in other spaces. There are so many experiences that we have that we just don't talk about. We, our focus is the work. If we're in healthcare, our focus is the patient that's in front of us, and so. You go through it, but you don't really dwell on it because we're just trying to get through the day and take care of the patients because that's our actual job. And this was an opportunity in doing these interviews, I think most people have never really been asked and given the space to share what their experiences have been, and so. And I didn't want it to only be about, you know, the hardships and the challenges. I wanted it to be about the joys and triumphs and who, who helped you know, each of us along the way, because it's not only. It's not all negative. I think there is a balance there. And honestly, I think when we, given some of the current sociopolitical circumstances, when histories are erased, we erase the good with the bad, we erase the, the allies that come through in the midst of other challengers and episodes of. Racism or bias that could otherwise throw someone off course. I think we've all had, uh, experiences. I, I remember after a certain number of times of being asked how old I was or where I went to school or, you know, and at, at that point in my career, I was, you know. Over 10 years out, I'm in my forties. I don't look like a kid anymore. Like I'm not, I would love to think that I look like I'm 23, but I don't. Right. And I went into to talk with some of my colleagues and I said, does it, does anyone ever ask you were you went to school? And they all said, no. Why would they ask that? And I'm like, I, that's a question that I'm asked with a pretty consistently, like, if not. If not every couple of weeks, every, you know, it's a regular question. And I think that was also part of the, the seed for this film was just realizing that, the, that these are experiences that are set in bias, not necessarily always malignant. But. It's there and it happens. And it is, there is a cumulative impact and there's an impact on patients when we, you know, when these interactions happen. And that affects our, you know, our longevity as physicians.'cause eventually people get burnt out and anybody who's in healthcare, in medicine can get burnt out. But I think when there's additional burdens placed on an individual that just make it harder and harder to go to work every single day, that, uh, that. That work, that excess burden is real. And and if we leave, the impact is beyond just losing another physician. It's beyond, it's, it's losing a person that has a real measurable impact on improving outcomes and health equity. And so part of sharing the stories was to, one was to get people into the space, but also. To make it clearer to everybody, right? Because mm-hmm. I think that people don't necessarily intend to cause harm, uh, with questions or they're not necessarily conscious of when they're acting out systemic racism that's just in the water, and so it just brings it to light, hopefully destigmatizes it so that conversations can be had and we can figure out how to get better together. How do you improve the situation together? I like the way that you put that, that it's in the water. And one of the things that was included in the documentary, which I really appreciated was, and I can't remember which physician it was, but they told the story of the white woman who came for an appointment and didn't realize that their physician was a black woman. And in the. Reception area. She was saying, I don't know if I can go through with this. I have never, you know, been seen by a black, person or whatever. And well, maybe you can finish the story. I, I really love this story because I feel like it kind of moves from that, that, racism, systemic racism, it exists. And then this is one of those stories that. You know, kind of shows us moving through that and what that looks like. So, I don't know, maybe you can finish the story. Sure. So, first I will do my best to do her justice, but Dr. Uh, rose Cesar tells it so well. So she is a gastroenterologist in a rural area and had a patient come to see her and had that reaction, as you stated, like, I've never seen a doctor, I've never seen a black doctor before. I don't know if I can have this. And the Dr. Cesar's nurse or receptionist said, well, you can leave and. The patient decided to stay. Didn't say anything to Dr. Cesar at the time. Went through the entire interaction and by the end of it was, I think, so taken by her care, the care that she had received, that she said, is it okay if I give you a hug? Mm-hmm. And. So she did. And my reaction and her final response was, you know, like sometimes we just, this is some work that we have to do just to build those bridges. And I said, yeah, but that's also unpaid labor. Her job was to be a gastroenterologist, right? Yeah. To take care people's digestive tracts. Right. And she said, you know what? But sometimes it's just part of the job. And I think her grace for that patient in that moment, her staff members caring for her wellbeing mm-hmm. To be able to say like, I'm gonna maybe see if I can shield this person from you. Yeah. Um, but, or shield you from this person. But having the entire interaction go so beautifully in the end that patient now has. Has had a moment where they've got a different image maybe. And given where we, you know, in this rural area, it is very possible to live much of your life without interacting with people of color. Right? And so this is a, that patient may not have had any interactions with people of color over many, many weeks or months or years. And so, but that creates a bridge and. That's part of the work that, that we're trying to do as well. Well, and I think the other thing is that and I hope I, my notes are good to get onto this next part, but. It's this idea of having respect and listening and people fe feeling heard, and I don't think that, I think maybe that was. This woman's experience, like maybe she had always seen a certain type of doctor. Mm-hmm. And maybe she felt really, I mean, we don't know, but this is what I was thinking. And maybe she really felt heard in a way, you know, that she felt compelled to wanna, embrace this woman, this doctor. I don't know. And that was something that also was talked about a lot and I felt that there was a lot of just. This sense of, you know, it's not all science and medical. There's another part to what we do, and that is to listen to people and to believe people. And can I tell you how many times I have felt not believed by a doctor so many times? But I think that is the other part, the other thing that came across. And these particular people that you interviewed for the podcast, and so two things that I wrote down quotes from Dr. Thea James is it doesn't help to fill the gaps. You have to eliminate them, and I'm curious about that and what that meant to you and how do we as a society do that? How do we as individuals do that? I love Dr. Thea James. So do I. So I think, you know, I think what she means there is she's really speaking to like systemic solutions for systemic problems. So we all have bias. I have bias. I. Know that my friends do. I know that my colleagues do, and it's not a realistic goal for any of us to be completely free of bias. What we do need to do, however, is to create a system where whatever biases we have, have no opportunity to cause patient harm. And where there's an opportunity to also reflect and address that and acknowledge it so that we can minimize any harm done to patients. Um. So there's individual bias that we may have, like you walk into a patient room and think that because of how they're dressed or how they speak, or if they smell like cigarette smoke or whatever it is, that assumptions are made. And I think if we just sort of acknowledge, I'm making an assumption here. I'm gonna listen to the patient and what they have to say. Without those assumptions, without the conclusions that my, you know, my lizard brain has lept to and treat the patient that's in front of me and listen to what they're saying. So I think that's part of it. And there's also, the system, you know, the, the part of systemic apps that we can address are, there's. Baked in bias and racism in medicine and algorithms, like truly algorithms that we follow. There was a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine several years ago that examined a number of algorithms that are used for anything for how to address urinary tract infections in children or how to approach kidney disease. Um, the kidney disease one is I think particularly valid. And so there has been, there had been in many systems, a correction factor that was built into a lab test result. So completely like you send a blood sample to a lab, the lab gets the number that looks at, and that number gives you that number's used to calculate essentially how well or poorly the kidneys are functioning. And there had been, and still is in many systems, a correction factor that was included for black people that said. This number, let's say, is one for a black person, we're gonna say it's actually better than that. It's 0.8 because black folks function better at the, at a what number that would otherwise be considered reflective of poor kidney function. And so that correction factor, uh, ends up delaying care for kidney disease. It ends up delaying being put on transplant list. It, it delays, um. It harms people. Mm-hmm. It delays care harms people, and there are lots of systems that have gone through and said, oh my gosh, we've got this in our lab and eliminated it. Every system needs to do that. Every system mm-hmm. Needs to go and examine that. Baked in correction, there's, there are algorithms for how to proceed with when to get a c-section, when to start a C-section for a patient based on. What their vital signs are, what their history is. And many of the algorithms will place black women in the position of being more likely to get C-sections. And with C-sections, which are major operations, there is a risk of surgical complications. There's more time out of work. There's a lot of, there's a lot of fallout that comes as a result of. An algorithm, so doctors are following what they're supposed to be doing. And so eliminating things like that I think is part of eliminating those gaps, ensuring ways that highly qualified people have as much of an opportunity to go to medical school as anyone else. Taking into account differences in background, but knowing that the skills and intelligence are there for people of all backgrounds and that we do have a duty to reflect the communities that we serve, knowing that there's a real impact. And then the other thing she said was. Always reach back and pull forward. That was the other thing that stuck out to me. Yeah. And what you're doing, that's what I see you doing. You know, you're representing your, your little girl can look at you and say What Rebecca didn't have, Crumpler didn't have, was. Seeing a doctor that looked like her, and you are, but you, for some little girl, you're doing that through this endeavor that you're doing. And so, that's what I was thinking when she said that. I was thinking about you and what you're doing and how this is, that basically in that idea, basically in action, what are, what haven't I asked you that you do want my listeners to kinda walk away knowing about this? So I think that one of the things that is incredibly important that's probably already natural for your listeners is to be curious about what we have learned, what we haven't learned, to be curious about histories that are highlighted, and, and be just as curious about the histories that are hidden. To think about these histories from multiple perspectives. You know, I think that one of the other aspects of Rebecca Lee Rumple's history in addition to the fact that there's clearly no way that she could have gotten to where she, not that she didn't have the ab ability and aptitude. But in the system and the culture that existed in 1860, there is no way that she could have started medical school without the support of white people who were helping her along. And I think her, actually I haven't been able to confirm'cause there's not a lot of detail. But one of the things that I believe I learned was that an abolitionist, an Ohio abolitionist named Benjamin Wade paid for her medical education. So that's how it was funded. So. When we lose the history of her existing. Mm-hmm. And that gets buried. We lose the history of the allies and people who help to support that as well. And I think once that, without that being known, we forget that it is incredibly important that we help each other in these times and in all times because that is how we actually improve life for. So I think be curious be curious, learn more, dig deeper. Mm-hmm. And think about whether or not you've ever seen a black female physician in your life, or when the first time was that it happened. Think about whether there were any colleagues in her circle. Think about maybe what the conversation was that you had with her at the time, and whether there were any things that maybe you would've done differently. Based on what you know now. And please do listen to the stories. Listen to the podcast. Mm-hmm. Watch a documentary. This is none of this. I think we get so politicized and things are about blame and none of these stories are about blame. These are all sharing stories in a way that I hope cuts through defenses and just goes to the heart of things and shows all of our collective humanity So beautiful. That's beautiful. Reminds me of Bad Bunny. I don't know if you saw his, uh, Grammy speech. It was like, ugh. You know, I just wanna be pissed off all the time. I'll cut this out. I just wanna be pissed off all the time because there's something about that's like self-righteous anger, but he's like, we're not savages. You know, we, yeah. You know, love is what is going to trans transcend everything. So, um. That was beautiful. Thank you for saying that and sharing that. There was something else I wanted to ask you. What was the thing and that you were most surprised about, that you thought you kind of knew, but then when you went in and you did this project, what was the thing that surprised you the most? I think how different all the stories were, you know, is, I mean, I am an N of one. I know my story. My sister happens to be a physician as well. I know her story, I know the stories of some close friends, but they're so, I, I've learned just as much about the different paths as anyone else who has listened or seen the film. Um, I. If there's a person who's, uh, who's gonna be in the podcast, who's a third generation physician, I didn't even think the math could work that way. I didn't think the generational math of years could work the way to, uh, have a situ situation where a third generation physician is here right now. So is. And personally I was part of what was going on at the time that I started the project was that I was planning to leave clinical medicine. I was done. I said I have paid, I just finished paying back my school loans. I was officially free to, to, uh, move forward with a different life. And quite honestly, hearing the stories, giving myself the time to breathe, created the space that has actually allowed me to come back to clinical medicine. And allowed me to explore it in different ways. And so for me as an individual, that has been incredibly rewarding. I, I learned other types of medicine and I'm practicing in a different space than I would've ever imagined. And I feel very grateful for the stories and the journeys that were shared. And I was quite honestly shocked sometimes about how honest people were.'Cause I think a lot of times, myself included, we hold back stories. We don't talk about the harder things. We just wanna sort of gloss things over. Mm-hmm. And say like, Nope, we're good. It's all fine. I'm gonna handle my business. I took care of it moving on, and people were vulnerable and honest. And transparent in a way that I think is gonna help so many people. And I am and have been deeply grateful for that. Yeah I would say that it was emotionally relatable no matter who you are because of the honesty. Anything else? Anything else before I. Ask where we can find you, and thank you for being here. Thank you. I've never been good at asking for help, as I mentioned when I first sent the email, but I'll say that our current plan is to complete season two and season three. If there is enough interest in the world for us to go on to season four or anything beyond, um, and anybody wants to support that fractured atlas is our. Fiscal sponsor and faces of medicine.org is where people can find more information about the project, how to donate if, if anyone would choose to. And and also links to both film the documentary. One other thing is if folks listening, would like to host a screening. We do screenings through our partner called it. It's an independent film house essentially, and people can either watch it themselves for a very small fee or hold screenings for an organization or school. I would love to have it screened in various schools. Community organizations and really just share the stories and hopefully soften some hearts and move some minds. Great. Thank you. So, um, I think you told us where we can find you at the website and everything kind of flows out from there. Dr. Renis, thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for your interest and, uh. I'm excited for this. Me too. I'm going to press What I am carrying with me from this conversation is a reminder to stay curious. Curious about the histories we're taught and just as curious about the ones we aren't. Because when stories like Dr. Rebecca Lee Crumpler get buried, we don't just lose a name, we lose a fuel. We don't just lose a name. We lose the full human chain behind it. The courage, the labor, the joy, the cost, and even the allies who helped make that path possible. If this episode moved you, I really encourage you to explore Faces of Medicine. You'll find links in the show notes to the documentary, the podcast, and ways to support the project, plus information on how to host a screening through Kin Ma. And if you're still here with me, let this be your small invitation. Think back, when was the first time you were treated by a black woman physician, or have you ever been. What would it mean if every child could answer that question early, naturally, and without it being a first? As always, thank you for listening, for sharing the show, and for helping these histories travel. Until next time, be curious. Be kind, and keep chasing the human side of history

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Thanks for spending time with me on Armchair Historians. If you enjoyed this episode, the easiest way to support the show is to follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you can leave a rating or review or share the episode with a friend who loves history. You will find my website and links to everything we discussed in the show notes, along with ways to support the show more directly, whether that's joining the community, supporting financially, or simply helping more listeners to discover the podcast. And don't forget. The show notes also include a free short story download that introduces readers to bedlam from my soon to be released historical fiction series. Until next time, keep asking questions because history is anything but finished.