Leading through Burnout - a Conversation with Creighton Blackwell at Coastal Credit Union

"I'm a people leader. At the end of the day, it all comes back to...how do you influence and impact the betterment of people? That question has driven me my entire career. "  

This is the lens by which Creighton Blackwell, Chief Impact and Public Affairs Officer at Coastal Credit Union looks at his work.  In this conversation, Creighton,  issues a challenge to all leaders...saying that growth and evolution are at hand...the old way of doing things is over. 

Innovation and compassionate leadership is the new bar. 

Transcript

Welcome to the Reinvention Road Trip, a coffee shop style podcast that is helping thousands of women dream bigger and level up in business and life. I'm Jes Averhart. Join me as we learn from the baddest women in the game who share their powerful reinvention stories, each one dropping unique gems and takeaways just for you.

Listen, it's time to get inspired, dream louder, and own the keys that will unlock the next best version of you.

When you talk about burnout and affect all aspects, right? Where we get locked up in talking about burnout, just from our jobs, just from a professional standpoint, we forget to then add in the personal relationships, adding in what goes on at home, add in what goes on at your kid's school. Add in what goes on.

And your best friend's house across the country, add in health issues, add in monetary economic issues. I want to volunteer. I'm a part of these three to four different things. That's three to four different lives that you are part of. You're talking all of those things, all of those different hats that we wear.

Yes. And it's nominal effect when you talk about burnout. Cause it's not just saying I'm just burnt out at work. None of that. That's not what you hear any of us say when you just say I'm just burnt out because you're encompassing all of that, but we rarely talk about it or try to deal with it in a centralized way that can impact all of that.

We talk about it at one time. So you had the great resignation, right? Well that in many cases of people trying to deal with burnout on that one thing, you're dealing with it from a professional standpoint, you're hoping then that will be enough to hopefully change and impact the other ones. But it intentional.

Yeah. That's going to impact those others. Yes. Many cases. It does many case that professional is so large of a domino when it hits the other ones, they all come from. Okay, can some cases it doesn't. And so having you deal with burnout and all of these aspects, and the first thing you have to do is define it first makes do a unit finding that no is in all these other places we made when you was talking about this.

Well, first of all, we're doing a cold open. It's great. Now we're talking. And I just hit record. So we're recording friend. This is who you've been listening to our audiences, Creighton Blackwell. And if this is a good time to bring our audience into who you are, there's titles, there's things we do. There's the work we do professionally, but I can't start there because you're my friend.

And I'm really fortunate to have the most amazing people in my world. And because of my work, I mean, professions, you know, say what you will about. Work, but for me, it has provided me the opportunity to meet just really cool people and people that I respect and admire and greatness at the top of this list.

We're friends. We talk about all the things, our lives, his kids and marriage. He's celebrating 20 years anniversary. He watches my dating life and like, Give me advice. I mean, we are really friends and at the same time, he is leading in a very powerful way, the work that he's doing in the finance banking and finance industry, and also just generally his passion and purpose for community and it shows through and all that he did.

His title continues to evolve. And so I told Creighton that I wanted him to introduce his new title to us on this podcast. And then I'd love to pick back up on what we're talking about with burnout, because it's prevalent and this is part of our series on burnout. So thanks for joining us. 

Absolutely. And once again, thank you my friend for, for having me be part of this conversation, my professional description, as we call it a title today is that I am the Chief Community and Public Affairs officer at Coastal Credit Union. What that does is really allow me to really be a part of people business.

Yeah. That's the way I describe it. People ask me all the time, Hey, what do you do? How do you get it? What are the specifics of it? And I say, oh, well, Uh, I'm a people leader. I'm about the people's business, people, eater, people, leader, leader, somebody must be there. And then the 25 plus year career, now that I've had in the financial industry, that's the one thing, regardless of interest rate, that's the one thing, regardless of a loan, that's the one thing about budgeting.

All of this comes back to. How do you influence and impact the betterment of people? That's driven me my entire career. And that's kinda what my newest descriptor, what we call a title really is trying to define. Yeah. That makes sense. I'm glad that. That they've invested in, in that way. And that you're leading the charge because you've been in, been involved in this world for a long time here in the research triangle park area region.

Right. This is sort of regional where I'm sitting, we're sitting in Durham, but you impact folks across the state, across our region. So I want to pick up this thread on burnout and this idea of it being layered and whole person. So burnout is, you know, we're all trying to figure it out. I, you know, I'm thinking about it in terms of depletion.

We're depleted. And so when I think about it in terms of depletion, it's like, okay, well then you have to fill back up. That feels exhausting. You know, people are like, ah, I can't, I mean, I can't even imagine filling back up. So then the formula is then you must say noticing so that you give yourself space and margin to fill back up because something is depleted.

And if I'm wondering, what, if you agree with that, if you see it in that same way, that. It's a, it's not a mystery. It feels very mysterious and people want to kind of live. This is going to maybe step on some toes, but at some point we have to solve for it. We have to take agency over it so that we can move forward and get the momentum back in our life that is fulfilling and staining.

And life-giving. It can't always be, I'm burnt out. I'm just found crispy fried, burnt out for what the next 10 years, like at what point does that stop? And so it's a little controversial because I think we all think we're all comfortable kind of talking about it in that, that language I was in April, I was like, I am done.

But then I took my April back. I took my, I took, I created margin in my life. Was it easy, but was able to do it. And now it's a matter of, can I do it this month? Can I do it next month? Can I can't I can't. I can't. So what do you think being harsh? Well, I will say this, I think is interesting to look at it from the depletion point of view that you're saying.

And I might ask the question, but what do you do with those activities? Those things in your life. That actually energizes you. Yeah. Right? It is. I think it's more dynamic than to just simply say, okay, I'm saying how to say no. I'm saying yes to too many things. They, this is one that's a dynamic and it definitely impacts a lot of people, but the prioritization of those things and how do you really acknowledge and assess, but wait a minute, some of those things are things, things that energize me, I need to prioritize and look at the thing.

That don't crack. What are those very specific depletion activities? And those are the ones you're looking at. I talked to people that sometimes you would just like, yeah, I'm just going to go down my list of things. And they just started eliminating all things. But you eliminating things that honestly XD brought you up.

They didn't bring you down. You were looking at it a little too easily across the board. Everything in 10%. Well, maybe it's like, maybe you need to cut this one completely out and give this one a 30% shave. And maybe you need to go up on this one because it gives you energy. That's an audit. I think that's right.

I mean, and that's without saying it that's actually what I meant. I mean, and I'm glad you, I'm glad you drilled down because sometimes I just assume that people will think about it that way. Like I'm not saying, say no to things that bring you like. Things that bring you life or the things that bring you well.

And I would tell you, just from my standpoint, I have been criticized by others in the past and say, you know, something, you are part of all these things, but it's because you say yes to everything, which actually isn't true. I say no more. Then I say yes, but I say yes to all the things that I know I can connect in my world to who I am that actually gives me that energy.

It actually gives me that inspiration and I say gets me past those other things that may frustrate me through my day that I was, I could have gotten rid of that. But I have the power to be able to say, no, those are the things I say yes to, but I really spend the time in knowing what they are directly for me.

Those energy builders. Yeah. So how did you do that? Did you, do you just innately know it or do you. Was there ever a moment or were you, do you do an assessment on a daily basis? Like, yes. Hell yes. And this now under this, how do you assess it? I do assessment on me. Okay, good. You all the time. And I'm consistently looking back and I'm in assessing, well, what did that, what did I like about this, this particular thing?

Right. Creighton, what do you like about it? What do you get from it? Who else were you able to influence by that energy of it? I will look at all those events and those things that kind of give me that chill that give me that energy, that, that unit sitting at at sometimes you just, those are the ones I'm gonna do more out.

Yeah. And then wait a minute. So there was something that can connect to that one that gives me that fill in even more. Those are the things I'm looking forward to doing and so much about burnout, you know, how we measure it. It's in the stuff that in our mind are the things that were dreading having to do dreading, having to feel comfortable, feel that weight upon us.

So I do an assessment. If it's an extra one of those things and I feel that dread no, no, no, no. That's definitely one that I'm not going to do more of. I'm not adding that one. That gets a no, but when you feel yourself and you feel your world and your space with more of those energizing. People in a dyes and type activities, energizing opportunities, all of a sudden, you probably don't see and feel burnout the same way.

So many of us are wearing it today. Cause we spend not time too much on those drainers, those, the pleaders as you defined it earlier. Yeah. That's good. And it's interesting. Uh, I'll give you an example, a proof point of exactly what you just described and how it worked in the moment. Yesterday. I was speaking at a, a women's luncheon and I was talking about legacy.

The title was legacy and how to stay personally inspired in a chaotic world. And when I opened, I said before, we can talk about our legacy. Let's talk about the here and now. And so I just did an assessment really quickly, like in the room, how many people in the last year felt burnout? All the hands went up.

I said, okay, how many people in the last month have felt burnout? Same hands in homeroom. Then I said, how many people feel burned out today? I was probably like 10 hands or whatever. And I said, I suspect the reason you're not feeling burnt out today is because you're with other women, you're at a luncheon.

You have these beautiful florals on the table where together we know we're going to be editor or the edified for the next hour. There's so much energy in the room you got in your car and you went and did something for yourself and all the heads were shaking, you know? And it was interesting to me. I was like, you're a burnout.

Yes. But you don't feel the feeling of burnout today was when maybe there's different definitions, but in this moment, less than 10 ants, So to your point, it's like finding the, doing the work and doing the audit and doing that. Check-in I love that check-in after a thing all the time and it doesn't have to be overly formal, but I do think we've, we, we can't rush to the next event.

We can't rush to the next meeting. We can't rush, rush, rush. When that take a minute and say, well, what does that do for me? You know, what was the impact that this meeting had? Did it give me chills? Do I love this? Do I see opportunity for connection? You're absolutely right. And I think we can not ignore what is still the blessing and curse of the pandemic and that it forced us one way or another to take that break and pause.

Now, the question is, what do we do with it? What do we do with that space? Because in many cases, some of that space, we let more things come to. We let more things sit on us. Things grew, we added to it, but how do you use that space once again, to now add in, but wait a minute. What about the opposite pieces that I grab enough of these times?

Did I grab, even if it's a virtual call, did I grab those opportunities in those things that were once again, energizers. They were energizers to me. And now I don't wear that feeling as much because sometimes in all of us have those people that we go to, that we love to talk to those people, whether they are professional or personal, what have you that simply talking to them, changes your energy.

Automatically that feeling, that burnout, it feels great. And that burnout feeling leads a little bit, just because you are able to talk about burnout with that versus it's so true. And it's a real to be able to share. Can you please share this moment with me? Like, right. Like I'm in it, you're in it. We're all in it.

Okay. I'm not alone. I'm not alone. Yeah. What does the image? It is. It really don't necessarily. Take it in many cases, that's much more important and powerful than some of what we care, even in that job that was absolutely bearing down on us today. But how do we manage that? How do we manage that type of attention and how do we not make that displaced energy misplaced aggression?

Tell me I'm curious and was in a conversation with multiple people and a woman didn't sit, didn't use the word burnout. And I checked her on it lovingly because I was what she was describing was burnout. Just like exhausted. I don't feel like I don't care anymore. I'm tired all the time. Blah, blah, blah.

I'm running all the time. I can't get my bearings. So it was something like this. She was, she was describing. And then I said, so you're feeling burned out. And she goes, and it was almost like a bad word. And she was like, I, she was like, yeah. I mean, but I mean, I, I can't, I don't want to say that because I, and I said, because you don't want people to think you're weak or that you don't want anybody to, to, and I, I was trying to help her try it in that moment.

Say you're safe here. It's okay. Say the things no one's judging you at, you're not fired in this conversation, but it was very interesting how she chose to talk around the word. Because the word to her while we're all saying it right now is pervasive. You certainly have to be careful about the perception of people thinking you can't handle your job.

That's what she said, actually, I'm sorry. I just jumped. That is what she said. I don't want people to think. I can't handle my job. No question. No question directly. You there's an interpretation of the term burnout, meaning. Right and done. Right. They will immediately go to the vet is like, oh, well I'm burned out on this relationship.

Oh, are you telling me you're done with this relationship? That sound I'm burned out of this job. Okay. That means you're done. And that's how many won't take it. It's an end. It's the phrase means an end. It's not a description of simply how you may be feeling about different things. Doesn't mean it's the end, right.

We all know you can be burned out of something and something can change. And that same. Situation that same environment and all of a sudden, that's the one that you ended up thriving in is can happen. But the narrow way, which we know many people look at it, we know professionally many people from a leadership standpoint.

We'll hear that phrase sometimes. And they will go directly to that. It is a way that you have to protect, to say it, to talk about it, to normalize that as a, an acceptable feeling, correct. Not a feeling that you must be penalized for. Yeah. And the more we talk about it, the fact that we're having this conversation gets us more to that normalization for people to not feel threatened by, at mid.

Because if you can't miss it, you can, if you can't admit it to yourself, then you're not doing that assessment. We just talked about, which means you go further and further into these feelings and you go more and more into that kind of negative cycle of feelings that the worst part of it, it gets to a point where you just have to.

And that's not necessarily strategic and beneficial once you get to that part. Yeah. So many questions are coming to my mind. So we know about 65 to 75% of people are saying that they have feelings of burnout over time in the last 18 months. So that would suggest that the, the young woman that I spoke to that said, I don't want people to think I can't handle my job.

The people she's referring to also are probably suffering from. Like that. And I don't think we remember that our supervisors, our managers, our bosses, our CEOs are also experiencing the same thing in a different way that we are, and it doesn't, and we're inwardly at an exception. So we can't handle the workload or we can't handle we're exhausted, but nobody else is exhausted.

And that is because nobody's talking about it to your point, like having this opportunity to talk on a podcast. With somebody in the C-suite who's, who's led throughout the organization to say, you know, sort of give permission, like, this is a real thing. It's not a myth, we're all experiencing it at certain degrees.

And these are ways that we can define it, identify it and do some work around it that I think is the first step. We're still not crossing that bridge where both sides like where people are talking about it openly so that their psychological safety around. Yes. Yeah. That was, you're seeing exactly what you're saying.

And what would you say to leaders as a followup? What would you do? What are you, what are you doing with your teams and the people in here clear coworkers who either are showing signs and that saying it, but, you know, they literally are burnt out or they're saying great number and doubt. Like how do you handle it by being honest and genuine, regardless of what your position.

Power and hierarchy. And we talk about so much of how leaders have been defined as great leaders is about how Archy and they leave a power of their position. Let's not confuse this power does not make you invulnerable to burnout. Yes. It does not in many cases, those are, those are the ones that actually are dealing with it the most, but also feel because of their power.

They're not supposed to show it. Same thing. We're all hiding behind. It's all the same thing and so many different cases. So one of the things from a leadership standpoint, I really encourage be open and do your assessment and be genuine to the same feeling that you know, your employees are going through, that, you know, your staff, all the people around you.

I am very quick to admit at times to say. And I remember as a leader, as I was coming up, I remember having other leaders tell me, like, you should not show vulnerable. As a leader, like, regardless if you're absolutely wrong about everything that you were saying, right. This moment to these people, you're supposed to act very strong and act like it's something that's completely true.

And guess what, if it turned out to be fake, you just said, oh, well I said it from a level of strength. You'll get over it. Give me okay. Believe in me. No one can, you can never really lead if no one will follow. And you seeing that even more today. And how do you really lead by empty? By being able to be sincere and genuine.

And in this case saying, you know, something, let's share all of what we have. Cause I had a lot on me too and all, all aspects of my life. I have a lot that I carry. So you know, something instead of everyone feeling and carrying the load and I'm wearing as well, I am sea level. So I cannot say to none. No, no.

I'm going to, we're going to walk together regardless of what your level. Yes. And I think as we can share that more news, like, oh, you know, something CEO of the company. Oh, you feel it too. You feeling all these different pressures. Oh, you mean you actually have a life? Wow. Okay. Let everybody be real. Okay.

Yeah. And that's where my leader standpoint, that's how you get more people to follow you is simply be that real authentic person and actually show these different feelings. I bet you, there's more people who would say, you know, something, I get it. And this extra thing you may be asking me to do, I understand why I have to do it.

And all of a sudden that stress, that, that burnout, that feeling that is now coming. Cause a lot of times. And professional settings. So even in relationships, personal relationships, the burnout is coming as energy. That's displaced from the other person from the other entity and it's just coming downhill.

Excellent point. That's an excellent point. Yes. It's a domino effect. Yeah. So by sharing in some of this, all of a sudden, it's not coming downhill, all of a sudden I'd understand. So now you don't have to wear right. Or if it's coming downhill, it's not a surprise because you have had an open discussion with the person in your team or your leader who's who, you know, is taking on.

And maybe they're not managing it well, but it's not personal. Right. You understand that they're taking on a lot and then you can choose whether or not how you move in that moment. Doesn't because you've, you have a better understanding. The empathy is in partnership with the moment versus it being. Gora a surprise or out of character, right?

It's like, no, I, I absolutely know what's going on here exactly. In shape the right way. That is not being a weak leader. That's not being a weak partner. No, that's been enough effective leader. That's been an effective partner because now, you know, something, the one thing about all this is that we're sharing this, this job, we're all in here.

Yeah, this relationship we're in his, this relationship together. Yeah. If you cannot share in that and be able to do that's where you end up. Wow. I'm, I'm burnt out. I'm wearing so much that I'm so frustrated with all of this. Yeah. All right. So talk to me about how you combat your burnout. You seem very balanced.

Do you have a good perspective on it? You have a nice viewpoint, like a perspective on how this is showing up in the workplace. How long have you been in the industry? 25 years. Okay. 25 years. And I'm curious, I don't know the answer to this. Do you feel that there's more pressure exhaustion? The pace has changed.

The demands are higher now than they were before. COVID or do you feel like, because COVID rhythm was different? That we are, we haven't like ramped back up to pre COVID and it feels overwhelming. Do you see what I mean? Like, is this uniquely different right now? This moment in time than anything you've seen before in your career?

Or it's just we're back at the pace we weren't pre COVID and people aren't really, they're not there yet. I probably answered this way. I would tell you that is heavier now. Interesting. Nice is heavier now. But it's heavier because people's needs have grown people needs has become more complex. Let's even having this type of conversation is not a conversation that we probably were having 10 years ago.

And that's true as a natural. National conversation with each other because we were too fearful to the point. So we were just making in many cases or even having it. But since COVID, since there, we all took a pause, that pause also game all of us, a lot of opportunities. To think about every aspect of everything.

Yes. That's it. I'm sure that's it. I'm sure that's it. Our expectations of how we want to live our life shifted forever. Cannot unsee a thing, cannot unsee a thing. And now our expectations are shifted and they're unique for each and every individual, what those expectations are, but it's different now. And the, and the way we're experiencing our work.

And our price and our integration between our professional or personal life, the way we're experiencing it now is different because our eyes are open a little bit more than they maybe than they have been. If that's what you're saying, because that's how they at least that for me, that's how I feel. Yeah, no question.

And with that expectation, I think is also this added expectation to address that. Yeah. Like I, now, if we talk about the great resignation as a nother great example of this, right? Because what it basically said is, wait a minute, I now, and it's various reasons of an aspects of the great resignation is not just one, but one of those is with this, all these different opportunities and different ways that I think now as a professional, I might want to go work that I might not.

You know something. And because of that, here's when I don't have to do anymore. Here's what I'm not done. Do that changed the expectations of how you even be work? We were forced into working remotely. Many companies were playing with it, thinking about it. Well, school education, some of our medicine specifically work, all went remote.

That changed so many different aspects of what you expect your life to be and how now you think everybody else should react to it. So even from an industry, the, bring it back there specifically. I have to now look within the financial institution and say, okay, your job is and responsibilities to be there for all of them.

So now I have to define, well, wait a minute. So I have to define now how they work in working from home and what are the things they need at home. From a financial standpoint through, I have to look at different types of loans and I made moves and rec. I have, we now have to be there for all of those different expectations that now changed.

Yes. That's a lot different than years ago, even when, oh no, you know, something I could actually show up at your work in some city. I know where you're going to be. I know how you going to be able to get things. I didn't have to worry about social media. I didn't have to worry about all these other communication channels.

It was very easy now to get to you today. No. And after the last few years blew up even more. Yeah. Yeah. So that is the mantle of new leaders. Yeah, we haven't talked about this. And I, I suspect if we're talking about like, what's, what are we going to see in the next year, year and a half, there's going to be a, a huge influx of, you know, leading and changing times.

Right. And like how to, how to prepare our leadership for what you just described. And I have a spouse that stays at home and works. I'm still going in, like, there's all the work from home hybrid. There's this entire. New perspectives around workforce. What does that actually mean? Right. What does it mean to read 18 that's dynamic, multifaceted, layered that expectations have changed where all I had to do before, it was just, we're trying to get to the bank.

We have quarterly goals. This is what we do. How are we doing? We're doing our zoom call. How are we're doing? Hey, call. We're doing our stand-up meeting. Where are you at with your goals? Does anybody need help? And off you go, it's not creating. How are you excited about your 20th anniversary? What do you have planned?

Right. Do you know the dimensions of the human that requires a different type of leadership? And I don't know that we're addressing that there is absolutely a tension between this almost becoming a force dynamic change in what you look at as a effective good leader today, because many of those leaders that were brought up in, in what I like to call once again, You have leaders of process versus leaders of people.

And we went through a phase through this hierarchy that we created leaders, where it was the leaders here by the power of your position. I am the boss here and you do do what I say. And that's all you had to lead by. Yup. And that was enough. You can no longer going forward, continue to be that person. As you see in the increase of people, leaving jobs, leaving organizations.

And we used to always say right, that people don't leave jobs. They leave managers, they leave because of that type of leadership. And it used to be a feeling well that they had to be here anyway, so you can get away with it. Right. No choice. Yeah, we're doing, we're doing right by. You have a great job with whatever, whatever benefits and that, of course, we're assuming we're talking about white collar salaried workers right now.

We're not actually, well, our blue collar workers. But yeah, we're doing right by you. So where are you going to go? Where's your gratitude. You should be happy to be able to actually show up at our company picnic once a year and get your hamburger, man. Thank you. But that dynamic is changing and you have really that tension because so many feel that that is a loss of power to be empathetic, to have as a skill set.

You remember with soft skills as we use it, define it. Interpersonal communication skills became something that was a, it's just a nice to have you just kinda throw it away. Well, what that really was is no, those are your people skills. Those are the things that make you empathetic. Those are the things that says that, you know, something I do care about your life and happy anniversary.

Those are the things that made you a people leader and what drives you? What fulfills you and knowing that is like secret sauce. That is the people who've been doing it for years. And aren't just responding to the fact that there are folks who are quitting right and left. But if you've been doing this for years, your people are saying, I'm guessing this is just I'm espousing here.

But, and the reason is, is because the roots have been, have been planted and they. Cared for intended to the plant has been cared for intended to over time, by an effective, compassionate, thoughtful well-rounded leader in that. And you know that that's a, that's a rarity, it's a rarity in is becoming kind of a, a call to arms if you will, because.

You've now changed this phrase. You've heard forever leaders and companies say, oh well, we're investing in you as an employee. Well, now that investment means something different. We normally say, I invested in you because here's your salary and here's your benefits. And here's what you give me in here.

And you get to be part of our brand. And that's the investment that's yesterday, today, and tomorrow is now saying. No, you're invested in me as a person. I can give you all of that, but my productivity for your company is going to be even more, but you gotta be willing to truly invest in me. That means knowing my family, that means knowing how I live, that means knowing all these different things that's gonna make me effective.

As your asset and yes, I am a finance person. And so I always have said this phrase many times that you aren't in an asset until you are a liability. That's how I always looked at it from a professional standpoint. But you had an asset now means something different in leadership today. They either have to change or get changed because they no longer in the numbers.

What was the old ad is we used to hear, I remember hearing an insomnia. Sometimes it says the change, the people around you, you have to change the people around you. That's right. And that's the tension of leadership today because you have some. That's not how they were brought up and are they willing to be vulnerable enough and companies willing to be vulnerable enough to say, you know, something that's not real.

Managing my power position is no longer real strength. I'm going to increase the diversity of who's going to be here to really add this drip. I'm going to increase the amount of women who are leaders and his cause that's real strength. I'm going to open up this to real. People leaders. Yeah. Not by liters of process anymore.

If you want to be profitable, if you want to be, you have great brands, you can't continue to do that today. It's interesting. I think. I think it's right. I also think that it's going to be tough to convince folks who've been in the business or have been in an industry a long time that strength doesn't live in a title or in the number of years that they've been in an organization.

I'm not saying I think it's. I just also know that it will require a great amount of vulnerability and humility to shift the leadership style of many who've said, what do you mean? This is just a COVID thing to tears and that we were doing fine. We're not doing, I mean, just get in line. We were doing fine.

Right? My leadership style. Two years ago. It's very hard to imagine people say I've been doing this for 20 years and two years changes everything I have to change. You're telling me I have to change what was working 24. I'm still hammering this 24 months ago. And you're trying to convince me that that's not strength.

And I would say correct. Your strength today has to be in your ability to adapt. And if you can't adapt, you're not strong. And in many cases, all of that, and don't, don't misconstrue what I'm saying, because it's very difficult to change that dynamic. And it's going to take. Even more time, unfortunately, because that dynamic means in many cases, especially if you are led by power, most of the time when you're leading by power you're masking instance.

Which is why you're leaning by power. And if you're masking insecurity, you're basically telling me, wait a minute, I'm getting ready to lose power by me being more vulnerable. I'm going to now have to, I see it as I losing my, my stranglehold on this, I'm losing the way for me to just directly do it and control.

And if I have to give up that control, that is in many cases, one of the ultimate. Losses. That's why you have once again, that reactive behavior, that displaced aggression. It really wasn't the simple fact that, okay, you, I was just mad at this employee cause they didn't do that. No, no, no, no, no. In many cases this place aggressive because you know, something I can no longer can really make you come into work because this pandemic forced you to have to work remote.

And I don't like that because I feel like it's a lack of control. Like I'm losing. But my productivity, the company's productivity actually increased these so many individuals worked better. So I have to now look at him and say, am I secure enough as a leader, an effective leader to say, you know, something that worked for them and do it, or am I insecure enough to say power means more to me?

And. I'm going to now force you to come back in the way I want you to work. Yeah. I'm there as a teasing and saying I, and that viewpoint, because that's how that leader is looking at it. It's not about we in the best of that. If you're going to be tomorrow's leader, if you can not have the skillset of we, if everything comes from I and every meeting you got to CEO turnover rates.

You're going to see there's too many other options. There's too many businesses. People can start on their own. The gig economy continues to explode. I know half to, any more suffer by beating your ego. I don't have to. I used to say, this is, this is back when I was doing more counseling on this part. Now I was doing a lot of research at different companies and looking at their employee engagement.

And I never forget it was at one particular company and I did all the research, but this survey stood out, talked to interviewed employees and really got a good feeling. And I never feel. I had to do a debriefing with their leadership team. And I said, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to say something to you all.

And it's probably going to upset. Oh no, this is fine. You know, give us your report. I said there are about 300 people in this country. Working extremely hard, fill an extremely as used the term burnout. And they're all basically doing it with the viewpoint that it's only for the money and the promotion of about 10 people sitting in this room.

He did step on some toes. I did. Yeah, I did. I did it with a smile. I want it to kind of set this picture up as to, this is what they're saying, this isn't me. This is what your people are saying. And they sell everything coming from leadership as a power move to connect all we're talking about. They didn't see those as individuals.

They didn't see those as part of this. It was them and us. It wasn't the company leadership in, which is why diversity in, in various definitions that people want to pull out today means so much because regardless of the different definitions, diversity in a sense meetings, really, to me, Divine's, it's the people, it's all of the.

And it's how those people are represented because that's the week. Yeah. So how does a leadership become the wheat? You can't have the wheat without diverse population and leaders. You can't have the, we, I cannot talk to any audience and it's just I talking because I represent one thing, correct? Yeah.

When I really define it, I can say I represent all these different thing. But in many cases, when I walk into a room and I looked at people who looked at me and says, Hey, there's a, a short black male. Who's keeps smiling at me, but there's a short black male. And you automatically pull that on. Where's the, we, when I come in and pull in my entire leadership team, that represents your company that represents your friends.

That represents the where's. The way of is simply I leaders have to be today and tomorrow. Agreed a thousand percent. Yeah, this is so good. And I think we're on the tip of the spear on this particular subject. It'd be really interesting to see how the, how things change over the next few months, because I, I believe that you said that it's tension and I do believe that it's out there.

People are trying to solve for it, but it, you have to make the choice. If you want to be in leadership, you have to admit where we are. And I think it does it's this is an ego check. It's also just humility. Just also humility and thinking about how would you like to be led in this time as well? Because there's probably something there too personally for them that they have a, probably a formula that is different than the way they lead, that they would want to be led by.

It's so fascinating how we have attachments to methodology when the world is saying screaming, that's different now. And you know, it's just a methodology. It's just a, it's a, it's an attachment that isn't real. Well, I remember this other saying used to always hear about, especially in relationships that he's to say what got you.

There should keep you there. No no longer. Yeah, that's it. That's not the same anymore. I mean, that's no longer, no longer because you have to do and be so much more. And even as talk about leadership, what the hierarchy kind of the levels that many people got to leadership and many cases today, that's not what can keep you in leadership.

Many cases that. Yeah, it was your network. It wasn't necessarily that you needed to have a certain amount of interpersonal communication skills. I did. I didn't need those. If I just knew the, the three people who were, who knew me, I was son of that. You know, any of that, that's how it got my. That's not how you can stay in leadership today.

Keep it no longer. You must be so, so much more than what got you there. And actually it becomes, I think, a real trophy, something that really makes you stand out as a leader. When you demonstrate, let me show you all these other things I became, I'm not saying don't take it the opportunity. Many of us, we get where we are because of networks.

But it's about what you make out of my network, got me the relationship with my wife, but it's what I made out of it. That changed that made it 20 years. There it is nice. That's how I think you continue to grow in to tell it all that these are still all the things that once again, we started this talking about how do you deal with burnout?

Take all of these feelings and all of these different attributes that we're talking about right now and throw them out. If you're dealing with these things and that has an impact, you'll burn out. How does leadership, how does cause now no longer are you wearing all these different feelings and pressures and weights that's sitting on you?

Yeah. Yeah. Now have you feel that those were removed? Correct? Interesting. All right. Well, we're going to wrap this up. Um, this is a good Blatz of nuggets for me. I'm going to have to listen back. I'm just, I'm just, I'm sitting here rubbing my forehead. Cause I'm thinking about like, The journey that we're on as a globe, right?

The global journey that we're on. And as we play into our day to day, so we spend more time at work than anywhere else. So cultivating leadership that can rise to that challenge. I think this would be extremely important. Tell me, is there any things that energize you, the things that give you life friend taps, three things, three things.

Number one, family, wife, my kids, my friends. And easily the fact that we still have people all around us, not only that you can influence, touch and impact. Yes. I watched a lot of Marvel comic movies, but I really believe in that. And that's energizing to me to be able to not only take the responsibility, but want the responsibility.

That says that, you know, something you can help impact somebody today. Those are the key things to me. I looked at my positions. I could have. And they didn't do that. I didn't take them. That's, what's energizing to me. So beyond my wife and my family and my kids and my community around me in that community, people like you, jazz leaders who once again are all aligned in saying we're here for the week.

We're here to really help the people when it's just not a song we're singing, this is genuine. And for that, that's what energizes me. So I can never get enough of that. There's never a, a too much. Of that you can never tell me there's too many good things happening. Those are what energizes me. Well, I know that's true because I know you, I know you outside this podcast, our listeners may or may not know you, but if you don't, I can vouch for what and just said, it's not just lip service.

Isn't many years, as I've known him, I'll get phone calls, random phone calls about ideas and ways, and we should be doing more. How can we do more, Jess? And I had this idea. What do you think about it? I mean, constantly, constantly working around the way. I mean, the impact and the idea of being on this planet and using this time wisely, such that the legacy is about making.

The community and the people around us better. That's what you do, friend. And I really, really appreciate that hard. We need more leadership like that. We need more people who just say the thing to just say the things in a way that we can all understand it so that tomorrow we can be better than we were today.

And I feel like that's what you do. That's what you strive to do. So thanks for being on my podcast. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and, uh, let's see another. Thank you till next time, next time till the next, next big idea by friend

leadership and having to change and the feeling of being vulnerable, but you also dealing with the push. Effect, which does, I think, add to many people's feeling of burnout, because then when your insecurity, you don't want to lose your power. So in many cases you do see some companies, some people who are saying that they want to be a we, but you're seeing many others that are now saying, no, we are hard.

I, and I'm going to now. Push back. I am now going to make it more difficult. I am now going to really put my, my complete thought and power structure in place that only adds. And you're seeing that pushback and so much of what we see daily, whether that is business politics, whether that is what we see from community, even to how we even discuss with our friends or certain people who don't see this, they feel an insecurity and it's an immediate rejection.

This change, this movement that we're talking about that has happened even since COVID, we didn't even agree on COVID. So you are saying cases that pushback and that's what makes this even more at times difficult.

Yeah, it's, it's a complete different viewpoint in some cases in translation of the same event of the exact same thing we're talking about. So the question is will that leadership and many cases, and you hate to say this, but in many cases with the pain, be enough. To cha to say, let me change or do does the leadership of this need to change?

It's an interesting tension because that's what you are so many are facing right now. We can look through the news. Every day and right now see so many examples of the same thing. Yeah. Which is why I'm convinced that the next will be the next, whatever, I don't know, year, year and a half is going to be so revealing.

Like we're going to see it playing out in real time. Companies will either remove leadership or we'll have a leadership. In a new way. Talk about like, like Cisco, you know, they double down on things like diversity and they doubled down on and they don't care. They get all kinds of pushback from it. But they're like, this is a, this is our, this is our value.

We're going to do it. And so they're doing something very unique and they're kind of first out in that big, like fortune five business. And so now everybody else has. To, to lead from the heart or lead from what's right from Lee, you know, but it took one to kind of get out there and do it. And so I think you're right.

I mean, it'll be very interesting to see what our mid or small to mid-sized businesses, like what side of this they fall on and the impact to your point, is it going to be like, what did you say it was? Was it harmful? You said it's going to hurt bad enough, right. That they changed. Or there is a change, right?

Or they're removed because I it's as feel like it's a People Movement, the people are moving. The people are, are saying what they need and we can pretend like it's not happening. You know, the eye person, the eye leader, he can smell some women's podcasts here, but he can pretend like that's not how. But it's happening.

That to me is going to be fascinating to watch. This is accurate. Yeah. Thanks friends for riding along on today's re-invention road trip. If you like, what you heard, tell a friend and leave us a review. I know seems like a little thing, but it is so important to see if we're on the right track. You can find the show notes jesaverhart.com/ forward slash podcast.

And don't forget to join the Reinvention Road Trip by signing up for our newsletter, where I share behind the scene details and nuggets that you won't hear. New episodes drop weekly. So subscribe on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to your podcasts these days. All right, friends.

Thanks so much until next time. .