Meet Katherine Williford, our friend and the founder of the sustainable fashion brand Pamut Apparel. From her childhood experiences to moving to Budapest for love, hear Kat's Reinvention story and how it led her to build her own ethical, profitable fashion brand here in Raleigh, NC. Spoiler alert, this girl is a cliff jumper and credits her growth to getting uncomfortable over and over again until she had completely reinvented herself.
Kat Pamut RRT Podcast
[00:00:00] Kat: [00:00:00] So I decided to quit that job. And that was when I decided to move to Hungary, to Budapest. Oh, my
[00:00:06] Jes: [00:00:06] gosh. Okay. So now my listeners are like, ah, ha the reinvention story.
[00:00:19] I'm Jes Averhart and you're listening to the re-invention road trip podcast. Listen, I'm a mom. Who's obsessed with the power and process of reinvention. And I'm also a fourth generation entrepreneur. I've worked on an Amish farm and for the world's most admired company produced events in partnership with the NFL and NBA and carved out a little place in the world of early stage startup.
[00:00:44] Every step of the way, learning the power of reinvention. So let's take this journey together. It's time to get inspired, dream louder, and own the keys that will unlock the next best version of you [00:01:00] reinvention the action or process through which something has changed so much that it appears to be entirely.
[00:01:10] Welcome back to the reinvention Roadtrip podcast. Y'all I can't wait to dig into today's conversation because we are going to explore exactly that the power of reinvention through the journey of cat Williford, the founder and maker behind Pomo apparel. You all can't see this, but I'm looking at her and we're like excited.
[00:01:29] You're doing a little shimmy. Um, Kat, thank you so much for joining us. I have been looking forward to meeting you in person. I've heard so much about you and hearing your story for
[00:01:39] Kat: [00:01:39] yeah. And I'm so excited to be here and finally meet you. I've heard so much about you, so many good things from my friend Flo.
[00:01:46] Who's also joining us. Yay. Look at this
[00:01:48] Jes: [00:01:48] girl. Power girl power. All right. So you mentioned this, so we're adding a little additional spice to today's episode, right? Special guests with us. Flo Lumsden hey flow. Hey [00:02:00] flow is well, first of all, y'all actually know flow, but have never heard her or seen her, but she is the magic behind this pat podcast.
[00:02:07] She's the producer and editor of reinvention road trip. She's also the manager of creative engagement for my company and co and maybe most importantly for today, she is a lifelong friends with. Cat. And I just thought it would be fun to have her on and give her perspective in this conversation. And again, y'all, can't see this, but we're having coffee.
[00:02:27] So it's like girl time and coffee and re-invention so thanks, girl. You're welcome. All right, Kat, let me get started. Just, we've got to cover some bases here for our listeners around your bio. Like what's this reinvention, what, how all the things, so we're gonna have to get grounded. So you relaunched promoted.
[00:02:46] Uh, about four and a half, five years ago, back here in the U S and it was a focus around transforming the natural fabrics of clothing, into something that drapes effortlessly across the human form, which I love. I love the words. I love everything [00:03:00] about this. You also believe that all bodies are beautiful.
[00:03:03] And that belief is what defines how your team moves and creates within the pollute world. Right? So I love it. It's just, it speaks to my soul. Um, so for all my ladies who are of all these different shapes and sizes out there, this, uh, this brand is for you. And the way cat thinks about it is for you. She creates garments from sizes, zero to 30.
[00:03:25] Now if you're like me who I'm a full sized woman, I'm five, eight and a half. Right. I have a big booty, like when I think of apparel, I'm like, oh gosh, she creates customized stuff for ladies like me, who can never figure out how to like, get into different size clothes. And so I love that. It's totally speaking my language.
[00:03:42] You also create your garments in small batches, which I think speaks to sort of this integrity behind your work. Um, Ancient techniques and some of your designs and you match it with technology also. Amazing. So I love this. It's very intentional. All right. But, and I'm making it sound so easy, [00:04:00] but explained it really well too.
[00:04:02] Thank you. Well, I mean, I've, I'm kind of a fan. I mean, since. Um, your brand to me, I've been on the website. I found like some stuff I want to buy. It just feels good to me. It's sort of like has great energy even off the webpage. So, um, wait until you put it, like put it on. I can't, I really, I can't, it's going to be awesome, but yeah.
[00:04:20] Well, listen, so we've, we've created, I've created this picture for our listeners of something that just feels effortless, even in how you think about your business. It hasn't always been that way. Right. Um, and I'm trying to figure out like, What was that self-discovery process? Like, why are you into clothing and fashion?
[00:04:39] Like maybe just start there, let's start with your entry into the fashion world. Tell
[00:04:44] Kat: [00:04:44] us this. Sure. Um, it's been an interesting journey. So my mom taught me how to sell when. Probably like seven or eight. I started with little patchwork quilts, which was very easy to get the hang of on a home sewing machine and kind of from there, my interest grew [00:05:00] and I went to the Savannah college of art and design.
[00:05:03] I had no idea what I was going to major in, and I did know how to soap, but I was interested in a little bit of everything in the creative world, looked into graphic design, looked into web design, which seemed exciting and like all of the animation stuff, but I've found out. Way out of my league with that kind of stuff.
[00:05:19] Um, so yeah, I played around a bit with a few different mediums and I ended up settling on fashion mainly because I felt like I was getting the best of everything. I was able to really, I was able to show it felt really like I could get my hands on things, but at the same time, I love the big picture concept of, you know, what people are wearing every day and being able to design draw.
[00:05:43] Um, use the technology to create patterns, prints, and then also the more, the more hands-on aspects. So I ended up settling on fashion because of that, because I felt like I could do a little bit of everything. And that was what excited me most about it. So [00:06:00] after college, I ended up working for a big mall brand.
[00:06:04] Um, they, I got recruited and I was super excited to start this job. Although I do feel like I learned a lot. I realized after a couple of years of working there, that I was kind of missing the hands-on aspect that I love so much in college. And, uh, you know, like I was learning a lot about organization and a lot about, um, more of the big picture stuff, but we would design something and then we would send it off to get sewn by a sampler in another country.
[00:06:33] And it would just come back then. And then, you know, we we'd see it on the store shelves, which was very exciting. But again, I just, I had no idea how things were actually being made. I had no idea what the factory looked like. What was the process that like, how are things cut? How are things stone? I had no idea.
[00:06:48] Wow. Okay. So I felt just really distanced from that whole exciting process that I had loved originally and just felt this disconnect. And so I decided to quit that [00:07:00] job. And that was when I decided to move to Hungary to boot up.
[00:07:04] Jes: [00:07:04] Oh, my gosh. Okay. So now my listeners are like, ah, ha the reinvention story. I get it.
[00:07:12] It's here. It is. I mean, first of all, I, um, I'm amazed that you made this very significant. Um, it's, it's a very significant life choice in, in the early stages of your career working for a mall brand. That probably, it sounds like from just you telling it just now, it sounds like everybody would have wanted this sort of role.
[00:07:34] Right. And so here you are walking away from it. Yeah. It felt a little bit crazy at the time. I bet. I, yeah, I bet. And I, and that, I think that's important that you say that, but when I think back to my own reinvention story flow for you and we make these big decisions, it's not, we do, it can feel like alone.
[00:07:51] Like you're like I'm making a decision that probably most people would disagree with, but I'm following my gut. Something's telling me this is the next right step. [00:08:00] And I may have to go out alone for a little while, until it all comes together. So you moved to Hungary to Budapest. Um, and I was reading about this story and I, I love sort of how you talk about it.
[00:08:10] I'm going to let you, you tell us in your own words, but what I got out of this was like this, this moment of, we call it a crucible moment on our podcast where it's very transformative. You like get in the fire and he knew with everything heats up around you and you're forced to change. Like you have to decide, are you going to be different?
[00:08:29] Or you going to kind of melt back into where you were before and miss the opportunity to become something new. And this moment for me, without a doubt is a crucible moment, but I love how you talk about it. And please share this idea of getting your hands back into the, into your work. Right. Really reconnecting with the maker.
[00:08:47] Kat: [00:08:47] tell us that story. All right. Well, this is when the story gets a little bit more about my personal life. Okay, great.
[00:08:53] Jes: [00:08:53] Um, let' s
[00:08:53] Kat: [00:08:53] dig in. So I had this, I met this boy, obviously, you know, it had to be about, [00:09:00] um, about a love story, but, uh, I, yeah, I bet this guy who was Hungarian and I, I met him working at the summer camp and while I was working at this small brand, I continued to keep in touch with him.
[00:09:12] I would go visit him in Hungary. And I just felt this pull towards that culture and that country and living in Europe and that lifestyle. So I quit my job. I moved over for this guy and, um, that was kind of my, my big motivation up, you know, and obviously I did, I did feel creatively disconnected and this was just kind of.
[00:09:37] The incentive to get me to move over there. Really. I think I want
[00:09:40] Jes: [00:09:40] that sort of flow really quickly. It's just funny to watch eyes are getting big. Like this was a big moment. This was so like, how did you experience this with Kat? Like how did, how did you see her decisions?
[00:09:55] Flo: [00:09:55] So from my outside perspective, as her girlfriend, [00:10:00] Was, you know, on the phone with her when she first met this guy and then talking with her while she's in, um, in Ohio working for this small brand, um, I just thought I'm sh he's okay.
[00:10:14] But really she just wants to have it. She just wants to get out,
[00:10:17] Jes: [00:10:17] have an adventure. Yeah. I did want to have
[00:10:19] Flo: [00:10:19] it and you deserve it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because I want to live in Europe. No one, I would love to live in New York. I mean, and, and moving, moving so far away. Even if it's California or Europe, it's, it's, um, it's nice to have a friend or a boyfriend to go with.
[00:10:34] And I think he was that for you, but really it was, it was, uh, it was a trip for you more than it was for him, I think.
[00:10:45] Kat: [00:10:45] Yeah. Well, and, and moving there really did get me out of my comfort zone. Uh, creatively and socially, because you know, it's not, it wouldn't even be like moving to London or maybe even Paris because a lot of people don't [00:11:00] speak English.
[00:11:00] Like maybe the majority of people don't speak English. So I moved there and my first task was to try and learn some Hungarian, which is a really difficult language, but that alone just put me in a mindset. Being like thinking out of the box and being out of my comfort zone all the time, because whenever I walked outside of my door, I knew I was going to have to have multiple interactions throughout the day where I had to be.
[00:11:24] I had to be like on edge. I had to be ready to go with my friends.
[00:11:31] Um, um, and, and just, you know, living in a, in a different city and, and my eyes were just open and I was aware all the time of the things going on around me, because it was also different. And I had to be. I just had to be aware of everything. And that was a huge transformation going on constantly. And just in general, I think as a kid, I had been like maybe slow to develop socially because I was a little bit younger and because I was super creative.
[00:11:56] So, um, I think, I [00:12:00] think being there pushed me in a lot of ways that. That got me to just a more, more comfortable place in who I was. I kind of, I think I I've discovered who I was there and I became. Way more confident. And so that was what spurred me on to, you know, create something that I would have never felt comfortable doing on my own beforehand.
[00:12:23] Okay. So
[00:12:24] Jes: [00:12:24] how long were you in Budapest? So I
[00:12:26] Kat: [00:12:26] was there for about three years.
[00:12:27] Jes: [00:12:27] Okay. And did you do a lot of reading? Um, this is it's fascinating to me because you are surrounded by people who don't speak the language. It's a very unique culture and you're having your own like personal. You're guiding yourself from what it sounds like through sort of this personal transformation, which is unique.
[00:12:46] Most people are reading self-help books or they're talking to their girlfriends every second of every day, you know, trying to test the waters on how they're feeling. I just out of pure curiosity, like what, how, how did you do that? Like, how did you, what was your [00:13:00] process?
[00:13:00] Kat: [00:13:00] Well, I think the main thing.
[00:13:02] Learning the language like that, that was something that constantly was opening my brain. So I went to language classes every day, and that was very important in, um, just being there. I think. Uh, I mean, I would make myself go out every day and I would go and order a cup of coffee in Hungarian and I would go to the grocery store and I would like talk to the cranky cashier and, um, I'd go to the post office and I'd talk to the cranky post office person.
[00:13:33] Um, so yeah, I mean just, just forcing myself to get out also, there's a very cool, um, like different creative community in Budapest. So. You know, I had lived in Ohio and I had lived in Savannah for, um, going to SCAD. And that was a very creative place, but Budapest was different creative in a different way.
[00:13:55] It was creative in the way that, you know, people, people living in Hungary. [00:14:00] Hungary used to be a socialist country. So people there are very thrifty and very crafty and can make something so cool out of hardly anything. And you know, you go to Budapest and you see these bars that are literally just full of old, like anti crap everywhere.
[00:14:19] And so the, the creativity there is just everywhere you look amazing. And so that really got me in. In a, in a very interesting mindset of like, oh, I could, I could totally just make something like all these people and it doesn't take a lot of money to do that, which was great. Cause I didn't have a lot of money Adeline
[00:14:36] Jes: [00:14:36] money.
[00:14:36] Yeah. Um, you said something that, um, I think you probably did. You, you're probably not connecting the dots on what, on this podcast that we just recently did around the comfort cliff. And it may even feel small to you, but what you said is so important, and I just need to, I need to like get in there on this, um, really quickly.
[00:14:57] We talk about the comfort cliff around the empowerment [00:15:00] zone, which is so there's three zones, right? There's the safe zone, the impairment zone. Then the growing edge, which you, my friend have been on all of those spaces. Um, and you jump and then you jump and you take these risks, right? So that's you, but what you just described about, I just made myself get out and have coffee, and then I made myself talk to the cranky person at the whatever, and I made myself every day uncomfortable.
[00:15:23] Kat: [00:15:23] exactly. You're just living in this constant state. Yeah. Being uncomfortable discomfort, which after a while starts
[00:15:28] Jes: [00:15:28] to feel great. It feels great. Yeah. I mean using these words, right. That can be overused, but transformative, like then you look back and say, well damn for three years, I've been doing this.
[00:15:39] I am a different person because of it. But it was only because of each choice that you made every day to do it because you could have chose to just be introverted, stay very Western mindset and not evolve. And because of that, your brand, I think so. Volumes because of your open mindset. And so as challenges, and again, I'm gonna let [00:16:00] you tell your own story, but as challenges and things come your way from now until eternity, the playbook that you used in Budapest will always resonate for you in my mind, because it's something that's part of your DNA now.
[00:16:13] Kat: [00:16:13] agree. And like, now that you bring it up, it makes a whole lot of sense, because I was having to think in different ways there. You know, then when you, like, when I moved back here, it just makes it easier to be more open-minded and you know, the kind of business that I'm in right now, and really any business should be like this, but ethical, inclusive, those are all things that I kind of learned how to do.
[00:16:35] Jes: [00:16:35] love that. Okay. So let's talk about you. You were there for three years now. You're back. So we're, fast-forwarding, you're back in Raleigh in relationship to not work out. Okay. Yeah. That's right. So thank you for that because you know, listeners I'm like, well, what happened? Did she marry up? She is very cat is married, but not to Mr.
[00:16:52] Uh, And the Hungarian. Um, okay. So you're back here in Raleigh and you're honoring North Korea. Carolina's [00:17:00] textile tradition. She think is really beautiful. You've created a profitable and sustainable business, right. Um, and it's grounded in purpose and passion. And I think now we sort of hear where that stems like what's that wellspring, it comes from your real lived experiences and some tough choices, risky choices you make along the way.
[00:17:18] Um, but you just said it, you said that pollutes and ethical. Yeah. So I don't, I mean, I know ethics are, you know, how I live my life ethically, but what does it mean to run an ethical business and why? It sounds hard.
[00:17:30] Kat: [00:17:30] It, it, it's confusing and it's hard to, I have to think about it every day. Like what, what choices are we making?
[00:17:37] And is it the most ethical choice? So any business that creates a physical product is going to. Waste and there's going to be, you know, it's never going to be a hundred percent sustainable. We have to be honest about that. But the choices that we're making every day are going to be the best choice for the environment, for our employees, for the people that we're contracting [00:18:00] out.
[00:18:00] Um, and you know, so I think about every choice every day, it's not, you know, a big, it is a big picture thing, but, but the difference lies in the small details and how we. Okay. So are we, so when I, when I go to pick fabrics, I'm picking, I'm looking at all the fabric options, you know, fabric is, you know, takes a certain amount of water to create.
[00:18:22] It takes a certain amount of dye. If you're going to dye it, what kind of dye is, was it dyed with, is it unethical or is it a more sustainable type of dye that doesn't pollute rivers or. Is it a dye that's gonna, um, be like very polluting? Or how about, how about fiber content? So cotton plain cotton uses thousands of gallons of water to grow.
[00:18:46] Whereas hemp uses hardly any water and doesn't need a lot of pesticides, if any. So it's things like that. It's choosing organic cotton instead of regular cotton, choosing hemp, instead of polyester, things like [00:19:00] that. Um, also. The, the labor that we use, we're, we're working with factories that are very transparent.
[00:19:06] So transparency is a big thing as well. Uh, making sure that we know where everything's being made and who's making it, are they getting paid well, you know, so it's, it's just all of those little details that we're working through every day to choose the best option for, for an ethical business. It's remarkable.
[00:19:25] It's complicated. It's hard to describe because it's just, it's just all this small things that go into it. Making it an ethical company.
[00:19:32] Jes: [00:19:32] Well, and you know, from what I understand from flow, um, this is why this is why you have a very loyal and committed following. Like people really appreciate that. They say the devil's in the details.
[00:19:45] Right? And that's what you're describing is that we can espouse a bunch of cultural values about being ethical. But every day I have to make choices that really live, speak, live into it because you have people. Are watching it right. And want to [00:20:00] support your business because you are making choices around values that they also share.
[00:20:04] Yeah. Right. So, and
[00:20:06] Kat: [00:20:06] it is a lot of, a lot about the transparency too. It was just allowing people to see what we're doing and admitting that. Yeah. Sometimes because we're making a product, there is waste, but we're working on using it and like using the extra scraps or how can we solve this problem? And we're asked.
[00:20:25] Our customers and our followers about those things. So we're involving them too.
[00:20:32] Flo: [00:20:32] I just wanted to add as a customer of pollute and your friend, but as a customer of permit, I love investing in a piece or owning one of your pieces because I studied environmental politics. And one thing I'm aware of that probably most people aren't is that.
[00:20:47] Any of our synthetic fibers, like polyester, a new bar, stretchy clothes, release microplastics into the water that we eventually eat and drink. And those microplastics affect our hormones. And they're [00:21:00] just not meant to be there in the water. Um, so I like knowing, I mean, not all of my clothes. Natural fibers.
[00:21:07] Some of them do have polyester, but whenever I can add a piece or invest in a piece that is going to do less harm and more good, I feel really good about, yeah.
[00:21:16] Kat: [00:21:16] Well, that's good to hear. And I mean, I think just to add like, as far as synthetic versus natural fiber goes, like yeah, the synthetics are basically made with oil.
[00:21:25] So making them, it's not very sustainable. When you wash them, they shed the microplastic fibers. So that's not sustainable. But the great thing about natural fibers is that they're really breathable. So, you know, if you, if you have to choose natural fibers always feel better too. So it's a choice that if, if you're, if you're aware of.
[00:21:45] It's kind of an easy choice because you always want to wear something that feels better more.
[00:21:49] Jes: [00:21:49] Yeah. I love that. I love that. You're like, I want to own a piece. Like, it feels like I'm adding to my collection of just good things. Right. Really good things. It's an investment. Definitely. It's
[00:21:59] Kat: [00:21:59] an [00:22:00] investment and, and it's a good, it's a good story.
[00:22:02] I mean, I feel good when I'm wearing w when I invest in anything that has a good story behind it, so it makes me feel better. I can tell people about it. It's a conversation starter.
[00:22:12] Jes: [00:22:12] So good. Yes. Okay. Uh, I've got more questions and we'll wrap up, but I just learned a ton just now. So I'm, my mind is also processing all of these like environmental sort of complications and considerations to think about, frankly, I haven't.
[00:22:27] And so I think that's really good and I love that flow that you're like a friend, but also just a customer that can speak into why it matters to you. And I was saying earlier, right before we started this podcast, there are two pieces that I was online that I'm absolutely going to get probably one at a time.
[00:22:44] The first one is the Atlas dress. And then the, um, jumpsuit, is it Kiki? The Kiki jumpsuit is my, that thing is so doggone cute. I'm like, why don't I have this? So I'm excited about that. I'm excited about those two pieces. So I'll be [00:23:00] joining the family. families doing. Uh, I'm sure I already can tell. Um, did you want to say something Flo?
[00:23:11] Um, so let's talk about, I want to, I want to move you into the, the bosses seat, the lady boss seat for just a second when you've been this, but you're kind of also educating us now. I want us to want you to put that founder hat on the lessons that you've learned. Right? I know speaking from my perspective, only that lived experiences.
[00:23:30] You bring your, let you bring your life experience. You bring assumptions to your business. You assume that your worldview is shared by others. You're building an ethically. You know, focused and sustainable company. Talk about lessons that you've learned. Some pitfalls maybe that you've run across hurdles that are in your way that you have to navigate just as a, as a boss, as a founder.
[00:23:53] Kat: [00:23:53] Well, one I'm dealing with a lot right now is having employees because I've never had to do that [00:24:00] before. And this is the point where now. Three three employees, which is very exciting, but it's yeah, it's, I'm very excited. All of the people I work with are totally awesome, but it is hard to transition from the role of making everything, which is how I started to trusting other people to do that and properly giving them space to grow while also managing them.
[00:24:24] That has been my most recent challenge. Um, but I'm learning, figuring it out like, like you got it. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, I think just in, in general being profitable was probably the hardest, hardest hump to get over, especially producing a kind of niche product and, and something that takes a lot of upfront investment.
[00:24:50] As far as fabric sewing machines. All like space, you know, like a lot of small businesses don't really need a lot of space, but if you're, if you have a sewing [00:25:00] facility, you have to have a lot of space. Yeah. Clothes are relatively big compared to jewelry or art prints or something like that. So it's definitely been no, take a little cute.
[00:25:16] I know.
[00:25:21] Jes: [00:25:21] Okay. So I forget where you were. Um, you were talking about space and size yeah.
[00:25:27] Kat: [00:25:27] That it's being drilled for people. Um, yeah. So, so it really. Has been a struggle to become profitable. And I really had to, so the way I'm I'm funding, my business is totally self-funded. I decided to not, yes, exactly. I decided to not have an investor and not get alone, but you know, that decision is different for everyone.
[00:25:50] But for me, that was what worked because I want to have full control over my company. And that's almost kind of what you have to do when you have, when you really want to be ethical. And you're [00:26:00] making a product. If someone else is in con has a say over what you're doing, sometimes the ethical story gets lost and I'd never wanted it to get lost.
[00:26:10] I always wanted to have full control over that even if we were going to be less profitable. Okay. That's good. So, yeah, I mean, just growing the business incrementally from nothing was difficult. It took a long time and I had a lot of moments of like, Self doubt and just, I cried every day for probably a year just thinking like, I keep losing money.
[00:26:33] I'm not making money. How am I ever going to make money? No, one's paying attention to this story. I only have a thousand people who follow me and, and it just was, um, yeah, it was hard for a long time to get to that point. And then, then once I hit that, finally, after two years, three years of hard work, finally hit.
[00:26:55] Okay. We're, we're actually making money. I made $5,000 this year. Woo. [00:27:00] Yeah. So that's a big,
[00:27:01] Jes: [00:27:01] yeah. That's, that's a big deal. Yeah, that's
[00:27:04] Kat: [00:27:04] huge. Yeah. So, and just the confidence thing and like worrying about, uh, yeah, not, not really believing in myself or having to fake it till you make it. That's something that I struggled with it.
[00:27:14] Right. Mm,
[00:27:16] Jes: [00:27:16] I feel like we need to talk to you for another hour because these were all, these are all those points that I think are so important for
[00:27:23] Kat: [00:27:23] women. I know. And I think, I think men are way better at doing the fake it till you make it, because they've been doing that since they were kids. I think, and women, women have to learn that later in life, if they want to be business.
[00:27:37] Jes: [00:27:37] Yeah, and this is going to be unpopular, but I also think women learn are in our top work arounds versus going through that hard stuff. I was going to say a curse word, like getting through the hard shit. Like we, we get taken around things gently and oftentimes. Said go, go through it. It's hard to fail, fail.
[00:27:59] It's actually [00:28:00] faster. If you would just push through, instead of trying to find the 5,000 ways that people will walk you around this challenge or tell you to quit, because it's fine that you're, we didn't expect you to make it anyways. So it's okay. And talking you out of your success. Yeah. And it's
[00:28:15] Kat: [00:28:15] kind of ridiculous because there have been times when, I mean, even recently that I've met with fellow male entrepreneur, Who I look at and I'm like, wow, they're so successful.
[00:28:25] You're so confident. And then I hear how much money they're actually making or like where they are in their business. And I'm like, oh, well, I'm doing better than you. Right.
[00:28:35] Jes: [00:28:35] But their story is like all the things. Right. And you're like, okay, it must be true, but they're just at a different, that confidence level is just, it's a different thing for women.
[00:28:45] And we just have to acknowledge it. And I think that. The beauty of these moments are for me, honestly, is taking this time to hear you hear your story. And then, and then just as we're rounding the corner, you're like, but there was self, self doubt. And I cried every [00:29:00] night and I didn't think I was going to make it and I just needed to get profitable.
[00:29:03] Cause that's the dark. Those are the. Early mornings, late night conversations we have with ourselves only, usually the quiet, the quiet moments that we have to then decide I'm going to get up and I'm going to keep pushing. And I go through this thing and look at you after three years, which is remarkable.
[00:29:21] I know people have told you this, but it's remarkable after three years that you are profitable. Congratulations, that speaks a lot to your, um, commitment to your business, really,
[00:29:32] Flo: [00:29:32] and really your impact. In the world because that's, I'm going to try not to get emotional. Now. I feel like, I feel like coming you're like, but I mean, where one of the reasons I think we're best friends are really lovely, like family to each other is because we really see have a similar worldview that we want to live our lives in an impactful way.
[00:29:55] And it doesn't make, we mean, we won't make a lot of mistakes or have blind spots or fall [00:30:00] down and, but we're, we're. Similar that we're committed to trying to impact the world through our work
[00:30:08] Kat: [00:30:08] and living life uncomfortably. Yeah.
[00:30:10] Jes: [00:30:10] Yeah. I love that. Oh, that's such a sweet friendship. I just adore. I had, I just adore this conversation so much and it does take again, this is another, we could do another topic on this, but it does.
[00:30:25] Support tribe like a tribe, a community to sometimes get us across the finish line or to remind us like how bad-ass we are, how amazing we are. Just that, that today mattered like whatever you did today and how hard over today was. And you got to the end of the day and you went to bed like what you did today, counted for something and had an impact on your community, on your world, on your family.
[00:30:49] And for years to come, right? That can be generational. If we double down on. Right. And double down on our dreams and really believe in them. Um, and sometimes we'll encounter self [00:31:00] doubts. Why you need a flow in your life. And when flows struggling with self doubt, she's looking at cat, right? I mean, but that's the thing it's sometimes as just that one.
[00:31:10] Something that someone says in the right time, at the right moment, that they'll never know that kept you going that day, or maybe forever, like took you over the edge and got you to the finish line, which we're never finished. But in this case, we're all better because Peru is around and is growing and is creating.
[00:31:29] It's creating this momentum around sustainability and being able to teach around this ethical kind of mindset that I'm learning. Right. And I think I I've sort of pride myself in this sort of idea that I know this, these things, but you taught me so much just in this small amount of time. So it does matter.
[00:31:44] And it does a great impact. I was going to ask you, but I think you've already shared with us, but I have one more thing. Good. All good. Cause I w I wanted to talk to Flo about. You know, from the perspective of a friend and, um, [00:32:00] somebody who is really familiar with the brand, but you've been lifelong friends, childhood friends with cat.
[00:32:04] So talk to me about, and you're her cheerleader. So talk to me about how maybe the gifts that she brings to the world that inspire you and likely will inspire others or are inspiring others through the brand. Well, I
[00:32:19] Flo: [00:32:19] think Kat you're very, um, honest and, uh, genuine in your pursuits, pure in your desire to be creative, pure in your desire to, to build something meaningful and.
[00:32:39] I mean, like all of us, we have our strengths set are double-sided right. You're very, um, opinionated and strong.
[00:32:46] Kat: [00:32:46] Well, yeah, I mean, I think sometimes what I'm, it feels like I'm banging my head against
[00:32:57] it doesn't make sense, but I'm like, it must be ethical even if I [00:33:00] lose money.
[00:33:01]Flo: [00:33:01] You've um, I think it's double-sided, but I think it's a beautiful thing it goes along with your honesty and your pursuit, but you're also you sometimes have an idea about how things are going to go when you're wrong or, or because you believed in it so much, it kept going.
[00:33:15] So there's like that persistence that, um, God, there's a, there's a word that I think it has a negative connotation, but I'm trying to think of it. I know. I'm trying to think of, um, when someone's, um, stubborn, stubborn, okay. Yes, we know that you're stubborn, but then I'm saying that the good part of that is.
[00:33:36] You kept going, like a lot of people would give up because they
[00:33:39] Jes: [00:33:39] don't have that, like grit, the grit, the grit to it, ness, the grit, grit, the
[00:33:44] Flo: [00:33:44] fight, like the, the feistiness, like, man, I'm going to do it, you know? And then sometimes you, you know, you feel, you get frustrated with yourself probably because you realize, you have to reevaluate what you're doing, because there's a better way to do it or it wasn't the right approach.
[00:33:59] And so [00:34:00] that, um, from my perspective, that's why you've been successful, but also. Because you've chosen entrepreneurship and that is just pure trial and error and constant reinvention of your business and yourself. You've grown so much as a person. And I think you're, you've always been a good person, but you're an even better, more wise, um, empathetic person.
[00:34:22] And we've talked about this.
[00:34:23] Kat: [00:34:23] I don't think I'm naturally empathetic. And I think that this business has made me more empathetic. That's that's real.
[00:34:30] Flo: [00:34:30] That's real. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and I always loved you because I could see the pureness of your heart, but I love you even more because you chose the harder path and it's the path that has brought you more fulfillment in life, but also, um, like a deeper wisdom and, uh, empathy for them.
[00:34:50] Thank you.
[00:34:51] Kat: [00:34:51] That's so sweet. That's why you're my best
[00:34:53] Jes: [00:34:53] friend. Oh, I love it. All right, cat. The last word is yours. You can say whatever you want, talk [00:35:00] about how we can find you talk to women who are listening to this, who are business owners or right on the edge of maybe giving up a little word of wisdom or,
[00:35:09] Kat: [00:35:09] I mean, I could definitely just say, keep trying that.
[00:35:12] You will certainly have days when you're crying and thinking that no one will ever care about what you do, but the more that you put your heart into it, the more that people will see that. And I think, I think that anyone who, who tries that hard for something with a little bit of luck will get where they need it.
[00:35:36] And even, even if that's not owning a business, but somewhere where you, where you need to be in your life, that pushing forward will get you there.
[00:35:43] Jes: [00:35:43] I love that. Thank you. So how can we find you? So
[00:35:47] Kat: [00:35:47] you can find Pamut at PEM moot,Pamutapparel.com or our Instagram's also committed to pay. We're on Tik TOK, but oh God, don't don't get me started on
[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Jes: [00:36:00] I don't know. We haven't entered into tic-tac yet. And I'm waiting for this. I
[00:36:04] Kat: [00:36:04] feel not good enough.
[00:36:07] Flo: [00:36:07] Other than cat has had to learn how to be a public persona because you have to be the brand. So you've done a really good job of basically teaching yourself how to talk on camera and teaching yourself how to make videos and like do all
[00:36:19] Kat: [00:36:19] the things.
[00:36:20] I think the key is just being genuine. But yeah, it took a while to get there
[00:36:24] Jes: [00:36:24] too. Yeah. And just a desire to just figure it out. Right. I mean, it's like, all this stuff is figuring out you weren't like, I'm going to run an apparel company. You're like, I'm really into fashion. So what I want to do, next thing, you know, and in five years it'll be an empire and there'll be a whole, we'll bring you back on to talk about that next phase of your growth will be really fascinating actually.
[00:36:46] Wonderful. Thank you.
[00:36:48] Kat: [00:36:48] Really. Thanks for having me. This was really great to just talk to you about all this stuff to meet you to. Yeah, I think, I think gave me more clarity about what I'm doing even to [00:37:00] have this discussion. So I need more clarity on
[00:37:02] Jes: [00:37:02] when I'm doing great. This is great flow. Thank you for having a great best friend that you could bring to the table.
[00:37:09] She's incredible. And you're incredible. I surround myself with people who are amazing and smarter than me. And that is why I'm lucky to be on this journey with people like you. So thanks ladies until next time until then. Thanks friends for riding along on today's re-invention road trip. If you like, what you heard, tell a friend and leave us a review.
[00:37:34] I know seems like a little thing, but it is so important to see if we're on the right track. You can find the show email@example.com forward slash pod. And don't forget to join the re-invention road trip by signing up for our newsletter, where I share behind the scene details and nuggets that you won't hear on the show.
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