The SeeArts Podcast #23 🌟 The Future of Spaces 💫 with Katharina Aguilar from 7Places

In this episode, we welcome a genuinely innovative mind in the SeeArts Podcast - Katharina Aguilar: she is the co-founder of 7Places – an innovation agency in Stuttgart focusing on spaces: 

In the conversation, we discussed creating "co-spaces" as future micro living where everyday needs can be met within walkable distance. Katharina presented two of her current projects that she passionately pursues which also s. We wrapped up with an artistic perspective on how to reclaim public space. It was a total treat, and Katharina was mesmerized with her insightful wisdom and charming way that motivated me to reshape my space for more creativity.

More information about 7places:

7places dedicate themselves to reinvent our living spaces.

They create and build spaces like restaurants, hotels, public spaces, offices, and stores in a new way using inspiration, emotion, and technology. With their philosophy of "Less talking, more acting," they explore and design future spaces at the intersection of technology and architecture. 

Additionally, they develop the 7places App that helps us find inspiring places and events in our daily lives.

Katharina followed her calling and passion for space and innovation after spending almost a decade in the automotive industry.

The funny side fact is that over a decade ago, Katharina and Fabian  were studying together International Business in our dual career at Bosch and IBM, so it is an inspiring catch-up, and I am sure our listeners are as excited as me what these 7 places look like and to learn about these spatial dimensions

You can reach out to Katharina via
www.7places.de · linkedIN · instagram · XING 

and stay tuned for the 7places App, which is currently in Beta in the AppStore

Transcript

Fabian Seewald: 0:05

Welcome back to the SeeArts podcast. And today we're diving into the future of spaces. We have an absolute expert in this field and you're going to explore the seventh place. Enjoy the dive into these spatial dimensions. Enjoy the SeeArts podcast. Welcome to the SeeArts podcast we build the bridge between art and business want to inspire you to see ours. Today we're talking about the future of spaces. And I'm welcoming Katharina Aguilar with me. She's the co founder of 7places and innovation agency in Stuttgart, focusing on the creation of these innovative spaces, with their Credo of"less talking more acting", they explore and design future spaces at the intersection of technology and state of the art architecture. And the funny side fact is that over a decade ago, we've been studying together in Stuttgart, she at Bosch and me at IBM. And so it's an inspiring catch up for me, and I'm sure our listeners are as excited as me to dive into this world of spaces, what the future space will look like. And yeah, to have an inspiring conversation. Thanks for taking the time.

Katharina Aguilar: 1:22

thank you, Fabi. Wow, I just, I'm just diving into this conversation and I just realized we'll do it on in English. But no problem. So we studied international business. So I should be able to do it in English as well. Thank you so much for the invitation. And I think it's really stunning. Looking 10 years back in time, you and me sitting in universities, sometimes we even sat next to each other. And maybe we were both kind of outlaws over there.

Fabian Seewald: 1:57

I think so I can definitely agree

Katharina Aguilar: 1:58

in our own ways. And right now, both of us have our own companies. And I think we can be a bit proud of that. Because we started in this big company environment, both of us. And it's really it's been a way to go and getting here and I'm really happy to talk to you and you made your way in this artsy event and stage part of our society and myself in this space as part. And now we're we're getting back to each other. Looking forward to the to live podcast.

Fabian Seewald: 2:35

Totally. Yeah, it's a it's a fun journey. But as you said, I think both of us we found our way and are creating things that that we love. And I think that's, that's a passion that we want to bring to to the world. To get the audience a bit more of an insight of you, tell us a little bit about who are you? How did you evolve from international business into architecture, space design, innovation, thinking, what happened over the last decade that lead finally to some places?

Unknown: 3:05

Yeah, I will. So fun fact is I actually always wanted to study interior design. But I was just I didn't have the guts to do it. Because I thought I'm not the person that's really good at drawing. And I didn't have this kind of portfolio they say you need to have if you apply for such as study environment. And so I didn't do it. I said, Yeah, I'm do, I'm gonna do something really hands on or something you can make a lot of money with. And that's what your family always wants you to do. They're so proud when you say, Oh, I got this study place in this really, really exclusive program with a really big company, and I'm only 18 years old. And somehow families kind of prefer these things for their kids. Yeah, and so I did it. I was proud I got this place. I had really good grades at school. And that was kind of a prerequisite for our program. I did it and I enjoyed it because of all these international experiences we could collect. I was in Japan and in France and it was really exciting. And after that I also got a really good job within Bosch - a big company for automotive supplies. I had a great time there and I learned so much but kind of I lost my passion. On the way I was really passionate about the projects I had, because I'm able to be passionate about anything. I think that's part of my personality. And I made a lot of innovative things. We had innovation projects around trucks and buses and construction machinery and we had the task to bring automated driving and connected mobility into these special special trucks. And I figured out that innovation really is my thing, but big company isn't. And I had some experiences there, especially as young woman, blonde, not with technical background, but into technical topics always being questioned. I always had to get into fights just over my competence before it went into the real project insights. And that was something I just I thought it's waste of energy. And that brought me into kind of thinking, what is my passion what's what is my follow the passion topic, and I had this innovative part inside of me already. And I did start up topics there. And I wanted to keep going with something like that. But I thought actually trucks, buses, construction machines, that's not what my heart is burning for. And I dig deep in my soul and get back to the interior design part. And then as life sometimes hits you with some some opportunities it did. And I get to know my now business partner, Frank Dittel and he has an interior design office since 2005, here in Stuttgart: medium size, like 30 employees. I just met him because I had a friend. And he's a mutual friend of both of us. And we just got into talking and he said, I'm always looking for this innovation part. And everyone is talking about digitalization, but spaces don't have it. Why don't they? And there are only really a few people who just even think about innovation in spaces. Why is that? Because they're not just built like that architects, they get into university and learn how to build with bricks, and steel, but not with innovation. And so we talk and talk and I said, Come on, I'm gonna I'm gonna get rid of this big company thing. I'm gonna try it. I stepped out of Bosch. It really hurt my heart because I had so many great colleagues, and everyone was like, Oh my god, are you going crazy? Now, you have this stable job in this big company. It's amazing. And you step out and go into this small thing. You have no idea what you're talking about. You have no idea of space. You like it? But you don't know how to do it. I was like, yeah, I'm try. Maybe part of my personality. I don't even know the English word. In German. It's"Grenwahnsinnig"

Fabian Seewald: 7:30

It is megalomaniac.

Unknown: 7:33

Yeah, megalomaniac. I am, I just always think I'm gonna grow wings by after a jump by flying. And we kind of did it until here it worked out. It was, of course, a hard way to go, we had to learn things. But right now we build up 7places out of this architectural office, we build another company together. And we're not only doing smart spaces by integrating technology into space thinking, what do our customers which are tourist information, hotels, gastro like bars, restaurants, and office spaces? What do people who work there? Or who consume their need in the future? What's their what's their most? What are their pains? And what gains can we create, if we put technology into space, if we guide them through technology, if we put like screens and user interfaces into space, and they talk to them, and they interact with space, because we think that's the future. And we already see how it works. Like in automobiles, everything is smart. There, it's all over with sensors. But if you look at future car studies, you can see that it's not like techie techie looking, it's really comfortable. And they kind of managed to integrate technology in a really seamless way. And that's what we want to do with space. And we always ask ourselves, how can cars have all this, they already have it for decades now that spaces don't, because they're just like, so static. And when they are built, you start planning 10 years before, and 10 years later, the technology is already there, but you didn't plan with it. Architects usually don't have that kind of competence. And we want to change that really want to have a change in this whole industry. And we do it from our little capsule here in Stuttgart, but we're we're having a really good start. And we have a lot of interested customers. And we have we're already having some realized projects. And right now I have three construction zones ongoing and I'm freaking out, because construction zones it is always crazy life and you have to handle so many things, especially when it's complex, and you integrate technology that now I found my passion, and I'm really happy about it.

Fabian Seewald: 9:52

Wow. Well, thanks so much for sharing this leap of faith into the unknown. And I I can agree that oftentimes these big corporations, they don't have this kind of startup feeling they give some kind of like a safe environment, a great network. But sometimes you really have to get out of the comfort zone to really go for our passion. That's what what you're doing. So it's seven places take us a little bit on the journey on what projects are you currently focusing? Because the seven places and especially the seventh place, as I learned in our little previous question, you have like a special concept you already briefly well focused and shared the areas that you're focused on what is currently the main focus because we all know due to Corona like the gastro scene is really like disrupted, maybe this might be the best moment to disrupt it competely and also create the future space. But what project are you- if you can share it - What project are you currently working on? And how, as you said, like, sometimes it's in automboile, it's a bit easier because you have a mobile one. And it's like, it's smaller, but in construction, it's like it's not so agile yet, how do you how do you get in there?

Katharina Aguilar: 11:00

Yeah, our projects are currently two of them are more in the touristic sector, and the customers are public. They are cities, they have budget. And they said, we want to create this really outstanding place where we can lead our visitors or tourists, it's kind of they're both kind of similar, just completely different cities with different backgrounds. And so the storytelling is completely different. But the background of the project is kind of comparable. It's that cities that said we have some budget to create this an amazing representative space about our city or even our Thuringa. Yeah, it's a whole federal land within Germany. And we create smart spaces that transport the identity of the cities. And they are supposed to bring emotion to the visitor. So they understand on a different level, what it's about where they are. And it's kind of like a museum, but a bit not so old school, about giving them the identity of the place they are visiting currently, but it's also for the locals, they can come to and figure out where am I living actually, what's what's the culture behind. And we have so many possibilities with technology to submit these information. In Erfurt is the first one, it's for the Bundesgartenschau, it's really big event here in Germany, it's outdoors, fortunately, most of it at least. And we built this space consists out of three rooms. It's about nature, because nature plays a big role. It's about local culture, we call it like that, and history. And in every of these rooms, we have their own color concept and own emotional storytelling. And we will deliver a whole lot of information. But we try to submit it in a way that it's easily grabbable for the visitor and easily goes into the heart. And you can you can make use of technology like screens and also big projection areas. We were in the forests of terenia for three days, filming with drones and with mountain bikers. And we really tried to bring these things close to the people. And that's what technology can do. We just use it for our sake and and then we will have like Hall of Fame with portrays of old historical persons and new persons like Clueso. So, he's really well known singer in Germany. And some of them they will move in digital frames. And you will be like, Oh my god, Martin Luther just moved. And now I'm going to read his text because now I'm interested and we try to make use of technology to really get people and then we will have that's one of my favorite moments in this place. We will have the blood will stand because paddles. It's like something to eat out of meat. It's a sausage from Thuringa. Yeah, but it's like the thing there. And we created when we pitched the project, we created a trash moment because we weren't sure if we really can do that. Can we really build a Brartwurst-Stand into that space. And but we did it and they will laugh all the time when we're pitching. That jury was like looking a bit serious. Because they are serious in their city and governmental and they're all really serious. And when I when it came to the Bratwurststand, the eyes were shining of it. And in that moment I knew yes we won but we could also have it could also have been What the fuck? Are you serious so that they loved it? Yeah. And we will have this Bratwurststand there and you can you can bake your own brat wurst on a digital interface. And that's the kind of stuff we do. With technology and spaces, we condense the emotion and the identity and then, we transport it differently. But we also use scenographic elements and art we made like this installation with glass bubbles that and they are produced in Thuringa. Yeah, that's what we do there. And we do something quite similar but totally different in the same way in Pappenburg. It's known for the Meyerwerft there, there's the giant Meyerwerft in Papenburg, and they are known for building ships. We dived into building ships, we know everything about building ships now. And we will transported kind of in a similar way on three floors. It's giant, actually, and through the whole city of Pappenburg, with the small ships coming up and being played with and that's what we do for the city and governmental and coming to your question, it's, we are really blessed, because they always they made this internet announcement, we want to build this you can apply for it, then you have to tell them you needed something similar before. Otherwise, you're not allowed to pitch then you go to the pitch. And we won and it takes a year from being announced, then applying in the first place, then doing the pitch, pitching, then then taking decisions forth and back. And so we were even working for this projects years ahead. And when Corona came, it was the time when they decided and they could have decided, no, we're not gonna spend these government budgets now. But right after Corona started, both of the projects, were saying, Okay, come on, we'll do it. Because the public ones were saying we have to spend, we're the only ones who have to spend the money right now. Because if we don't spend the money, who will spend the money, and so they did. And that was our stroke of luck in that terms. And also, one other really big project we're working right now on the construction zone is not far from Stuttgart, a really big retailer. A long time ago, we started with this project, and now it's being built. They want to make the future of shopping reality. So we thought about how to engage with shoppers, what to bring over to them. And beyond like the usual films of fashion. What can we do? How do we catch them also with experiences that aren't only technological, enabling events, but with special spaces that are dedicated to these events, and that can be transformed every day. Today, it's a yoga space tomorrow, you can have a DJ, and the day afterwards, you will have maybe a fashion show there. Because they have to bring experience. The the pure buying things everyone does on the internet, everyone does it on Amazon. You go to the city for having like the greatest part of your life. That's why people go to the city right now. And retailers start to learn that and they really did. And we are blessed there as well to be the ones who always bring it to life. Yep, that's the story of our current project.

Fabian Seewald: 18:08

Well, it's this pretty inspiring, like from the variety of product you're working on. And as well, I will, in my imaginary eyes that just saw that in the context that I'm working. It's normally always events. So it's a lot more short term. And you really can build visions, like in a museum context, kind of museum context, or like a corporate showcase place like for for myself, which reall will be there for for decades ahead. And so it's really like you can put it like the things that are maybe just at the beginning to emerge, like VR and AR but also combine it for for the spectator to see like it's, it's moving. And so that's, that's pretty cool and inspiring.

Katharina Aguilar: 18:50

It is it's like so it gives you so much it's so stressful building is unbelievably stressful. Building innovative is even worse, because you're the first one who did it. And oh, we have bugs. We have bugs all the way. And we have to fix them. And we do. But it's always it's always on the verge of will we make it will we be able to deliver as promised. But when you did, and we always do, then you can be so proud. And as you say it stays, it stays with some bugs sometimes. And you have to fix them a year later to again, that it's there to stay and you can go back to play you created even when you pitched or something you were sitting there at night and thinking all in it's built this giant kind of ship inside the room. And two years later, you step inside it, it was in your head. That's where it started in your head, and you walk into it. Two years later, that's like goosebumps. Really. I love this.

Fabian Seewald: 19:55

Yeah, that's powerful that when ideas and visions become reality in this moment when When it actually ends up even being been better than imagine:

Katharina Aguilar: 20:05

yeah. And you know that

Fabian Seewald: 20:08

from time to time there are these moments when really like, yeah, visions become reality. And that's really powerful. Because then you you get this feeling that you can have an impact. And I think that's, that's both of us what we do, we want everyone to have an impact to do a contribution and collaborate. But I'm also interested, because currently we see all the downtown's like no no persons, all the shops closed. They will be opening up again, what do you see in a sense, because the will the ecommerce won't go away? How do these downtown areas, how do you think they will evolve? How do they have to evolve and develop in order to stay sexy? Not just for the parties? Like what what concepts do you see there? You already mentioned a bit that this has to there have to be like transformative spaces- one day yoga one day this, but how do you see technologies coming in there?

Katharina Aguilar: 21:00

So first of all, that's the question we're being asked a lot, because it's a great pain of many, not only the retailers, but all the time hoteles or office, people, they were supplying other spaces right downtown as well. And usually the answer was, yeah, they have space means a lot of space needs, there will be more hotels, for what reason I never understood because we have so many. But okay, we need at least more great hotels, well designed hotels, community hotels, and also office spaces. But right now this crisis is shaking this up as well. So big, big, big spaces that were kind of dedicated for the to the future of working might not be taken for that either. So it's all about Co-spacing, I think we will have these micro villages and cities within cities, people want to have a lot of things within their ride environment, their direct environment, like shopping not only that they need gastro, they need hotel, but really all that in a much smaller scale. That's community things too like: Where are the cultural spaces? Where are the public spaces for art, where are the spaces to bring your kids, when you go to work, or when you work from home, and all these much smaller scale spaces, you don't have to go and drive out of the city to do some sports, we need to integrate these things into our micro environment. And that's what we see, we see a mega trend for micro living in the first place where people are living on a much smaller space, because we have this minimalism trend. And it will keep going, especially with the upcoming generations. And we also we have this trends to put this further into other kinds of our lifestyle, like shopping, like eating, like going out, it will be a much it will be these small environments recreate. And then from there, we will jump to the other neighborhood small environment if you want to see something else. And we see this already in cities because people love it. They love their Kiez and they love their area. And we love living in Stuttgart, West & South and we identify with it. And maybe we will one day identify with living in quarters. And they have names and they have their own identities, but you can connect with other quarters. And I think this co-spacing, this usage of big spaces with many, many small usages, this will be something but we need people who are able to deliver the space for that because there is a lot of specialization in the building industry. And people can only build office or only hotel or only shopping. And we need to melt this and make them much more individual and user friendly. I think

Fabian Seewald: 24:07

that's powerful, personally powerful, because they really see the competence that you have to bring to the table currently, because there's so much specialization in these areas. And I think the need in these while in the downtown Stuttgart aera there are so many office spaces right now all empty because everybody had to home office. But for startup environments, it could be really interesting to have these micro living that people live together they work together but then you don't want these huge distances. Well, let's see as well how this in a way also changes mobility needs. I think that's another interesting topic if we have these micro micro spaces, micro villages. Some people currently like with me with a family I think it could be nice to be in a countryside if mobility will also go the next step that we have autonomous driving that we can work from Every year, but I really feel the community aspect is so core to decide for community

Katharina Aguilar: 25:04

communities are. And we see that they're in the online life, one thing that is coming up explosively. And now there they have to, and they will come to real life to analog life, and we will maybe and that's also our contribution from seven places. And to your question how we can make it happen, we can build those spaces, that's not the problem. But how to collect the people? How to reach people, when they sit on their couch, and we want them to meet in color spaces, you need to have a melting of both worlds, you need to catch them on their mobile devices, and bring them to the to the space where the experience takes place. And maybe melted over there, too. You have solution, upcoming I heard for also having a merging of real life and digital life. And then you bring them back to their couch, and they can enjoy themselves there. So this really will meld into each other. And we are so excited that we can kind of see it already. And we can create it.

Fabian Seewald: 26:15

Well, yeah, it's true, like the analoge spaces that are digitally enhanced, and right now, for example, one current phenomena is clubhouse, which is a digital space audio-only but people really have a feeling of being together in a room, listening to each other and bringing these worlds together that like digital communities also get together in the real world and, and have an impact there. Because currently, I think we're all a bit like Zoom fatigue of these digital things, it's good to try, try on, try on something new, but diving a bit deeper into these digital spaces. Because we work in a lot on digital events, there are digital spaces and stages. from a psychological perspective. Some approaches have been that they build like a fairground with like similar booth that you would see in the normal world. And other approaches are, for example, Tomorrowland went all in and they created a completely crazy island with a surreal world. Where do you see the point? How in the digital space in the digital world? Do you want people to experience surreal things? Or is it better to keep them in the comfortable known space? Or what's the balancing that you would go for if you have all the possibilities at hand with these digital tools and creation possibilities?

Katharina Aguilar: 27:29

So the question, or the answer sounds easy, but it's usually true, it depends on the use case. So I think when you want to create something like Tomorrowland, and tomorrow land is about surreal experiences in real life, and you want to just copy it in the digital world, you need to go to that psychedelic path. And you need to do it that way if you want to recreate it and but it's the world that have the use case is to really build a well being space in the analog world in the world where we can touch things. If the use case is to make people feel good about themselves, then there's not much needed to make a crazy virtual room to make that happen. But you need to bring them into a really good well made well designed space in real life with natural materials with like sustainable elements with arts with everything that digital life will never never be able to deliver. And then you can make use of the digital worlds to bring other people there as well. But then it doesn't have to be very fancy in the digital part. Or you can use the digital world because you have one see through screen in there that enhances with art and the art comes over there also in is enhanced digitally. So that's that's a use case that really, really makes a lot of sense. And so I think as as always depends on the use case if you want to make a holy virtual museum experience then you can copy real museum with all the senses and try it in the virtual world and you can go crazy there and that if you want to make if you put priority on other things like well being then it won't be on the digital side. I think basically.

Fabian Seewald: 29:30

Yeah, that's true. Well, I recently heard concept about the internet of senses a bit like in the world in the direction of Ready Player One where we have these haptic senses as well emerging but I I feel at the same time there's still so much to improve in the analog analog space that yeah, that's focused on these one let's focus on these senses and that focus on the on the human beings to make to create the best experience possible for for all of us.

Katharina Aguilar: 29:59

Yes, we're motors sensual beings, it all starts with the senses, and the phone or the tablet or the computer, it can can only limit in a limited way, have response to all our senses. And the real life can much more. And that's why we're really are fans of bringing the experience out of these devices back into the space and then much better control how we how often digital elements occur, or how big their impact really is. Because if it all takes place in the space, we can get our heads out of these devices again. And that's also something we see will be much more smaller, maybe one day, maybe in 20 years, nobody will have a smartphone, it will all be spread all over the place the intelligence everywhere. That's something I'm really excited about.

Fabian Seewald: 30:58

Yeah, to live in these times of rapid change. And also like for for your side as well like designing it and being always at at the edge of the development. When you're conducting your innovation workshops. Can you share some creativity hacks? How do you bring people out of their mindset and really like spark what you're doing the currently to me like sparking this imagination? What is what is possible down the road? And how to do the first step? Can you share some like workshop workshop hacks from your experience?

Katharina Aguilar: 31:30

It's a really good question. Because sometimes it's really easy because you have customers that are already, like, pulsating creativity. And they have and I'm sometimes overwhelmed because I don't know where to put all their ideas that happens. And sometimes it happens really, really unexpectedly expectedly with people you never thought they would be like that. But they are. And that's that's the fun part, then you have to structure it and just kind of make something make put it into a way we can I have one customer, the ones with the shipbuilding, he will be okay with me telling you about that. He's like, he calls me five times a day and says, Can we have another idea? What if we like if we have this, this storyteller, and it's a graphic novel, comic figure, and they they fly into the room? And I'm like, okay, we will figure a way out. And it's a gift. But it's also sometimes like, Oh, my God, how am I going to do this now. And then there are the customers who are like, we have pretty much not so many ideas, we know we have to do something. And and we need the customers to be part of the creative process. Because of course, we're creative, we can say, Oh, your task is to tell us about your retail store. Let's let us do the work. But that's that will never be authentic. So we have to make them be part of the process. And we have tools like of course, like the classic design thinking methods, but also we bring some inspirational panoramas. We will we have posters for each, like brands, or each each area we're working in, like for example, hospitality. And we will bring like just impulse pictures, mood boards and ideas or quotes, or like just statements of ours like, I don't know, like you are a platform for journeys. And then we ask them, what does that do with you? What is your first idea about that? Or saying, What's your idea about Gen Z? Have you ever thought about it? So we bring these impulses, and then we steer them through it? And usually somewhere on our poster, there's something that can relate to and that's the starting point. And from there, we just guide them?

Fabian Seewald: 33:52

Yeah, that's a that's a cool method to really bring people into thinking about all generations, but on the other hand, also like making them a bit, let's say uncomfortable, but also challenging them like Yeah, what do you come up with there? And from there, I'm finding, finding a common starting point.

Katharina Aguilar: 34:08

So something I cannot recommend as ever, starting with a white paper, if you have people that aren't too much into creativity from their own white paper makes them anxious.

Fabian Seewald: 34:24

Yesterday I had, I was talking to a show director and he said he always starts with music. And so I think it's really interesting. what's what's a good starting point, if you want to drive something emotionally if you want to. Yeah, if you want to get people's attention, but also if you want to get there buy in right now, we talked about the starting point. Also the seven places what is actually the ending point, what is this seventh place?

Katharina Aguilar: 34:49

Yeah, you got me there already last time, because the 7th place is on purpose, a place that isn't really defined. We have our six other places where we say it's this smart restaurant, it is the smart hotel. Because smart doesn't only mean technology, it also means thinking about the way the space is used in a smart way and an inspiring way. That's smart for us. And we have all these these branches where we say smart and intelligent and cool and nice. And then we have the seventh place that's like our future place, because we said, we need room for something that isn't yet defined. Because in what we are doing, there are so much undefined. And every day we discover new technologies we haven't known before, or new ways of spaces, I'm sure there will be 10 years from now there will be places we have no idea about today, we don't even know this kind of experience exists. Maybe it's a virtual room or a psychedelic room, it's a capsule downtown, you can step inside, and it looks different for everyone. Because it docks on your neurons, maybe in your brain, who knows, maybe we'll all have like a transmitter in our blood cells and our environment will always know what's our favorite color. And so that's maybe this is the placeholder for all the crazy things nobody imagines now, or all the crazy things people imagined, but we don't do yet. So it leaves space for everything that's there to come. And maybe the virtual world as well, because it will play a big role.

Fabian Seewald: 36:27

Leaving free space is also part of the new concept. Because to be able to create often he said, it's not about the structure, it's about the freedom, the free spaces in between, because it's about this co creation process where people see something and I think it's really great that you by design, put it into the name of the agency, then you come with the six places, but then there's the space where you create something together and talking about free spaces and public spaces, there has been this concept of reclaiming public space for

artists: 36:56

Currently, the arts can mostly just happen outside or inside but just with streaming formats, how do you see the need for cultural institutions to recreate also reclaim these spaces for work from cities and also like for cities, on the other hand, as well the need to create this free spaces, be it co space at some point, how much duration Do you need and how much freedom is needed. At Wagenhallen, we have this concept of great creative Hummus that in a way you you leave something for good and then something will emerge by its own because if you design everything if you plan everything, the plan will be plan a plan B but sometimes you also have to leave free space a little bit a tricky question.

Katharina Aguilar: 37:42

Yeah.

Fabian Seewald: 37:43

How much freedom Do we need as well? And how can you also promote this to, to cities for for the arts for for these blank spaces? Already? You said it's hard to start with a blank space but or blank canvas blank paper for

Katharina Aguilar: 37:59

artists isn't? artists love blank spaces. We love blank spaces. But yeah, it's a really difficult question. I love it, though. Because it's there's always this ambivalence about giving freedom to people, but trusting them to make something out of it. That's for society's good. And if you lead artists, and most 80% 90% 99% of all the artists out there, they will only have good intentions. And they will only do something with blank spaces that inspires most of people. But maybe there it leaves space for one person. And that's applicable to every political question out there. And one, there's always 1% assholes. And that applies to these blank space usages as well. And we see it in cities, and they stay in the minds and cities they have this huge responsibility. And if they do things wrong, and they leave blank spaces to the wrong people, even if it's only one in a million or one in 1000 then they are the ones who did the mistake and not the one who actually is the asshole. And so it's a really difficult question, but I think there's no black and white. There's also a gray space in between to have collaborations that are approved. And that where you can trust like that's also a part of community building there what what speaks against cities, building communities with artists and they will absolutely trust in this community and the community will regulate itself. And it will make sure that this blank spaces are used for society sake. And I would absolutely support initiatives like that. We would absolutely be interested in being part of it. And if you have ideas how to become a collaborative, we would be, we will be in that. And we have good context to the cities, because out of our other initiatives and projects, we approached them and say we have ideas. And if you come up with something, it's always better than just proposing. What do you think if we would make something of blank spaces, they might not know, what's the benefit. But if you go with a concept and say, we have this concept, and see I visualized it, and the benefit is this, this and this, and you actually only need to supply the blank space, we don't want your money, that's always a good argument, then they're there, they might be really, really supportive. So let's do something together there.

Fabian Seewald: 40:46

Well, I can't wait. And we're our studios. It's called Kulturschutzgebiet - a cultural preservative in a way. And I think that's, that's the concept that we for Kunstverein Wagenhallen found, which is a space where some new things can emerge, we'll leave some free spaces. And then also like curated from, from time to time, and I can't wait to take you on a tour there and also get your more futuristic visions on the other hand, but also I think it's it's this sharing component, it's so important in these times that like, how can people learn from each other and elevate each other's experience on the journey? Well, that was a total treat. Thanks for taking us through these different places, through your experience through your crazy life and creating, like getting this calls of crazy ideas. And I love this "Yes, and"-attitude that you really already get back in the days when we were strolling through Moscow. But still, I can see still this, this attitude, I think, I'm so glad that you, you jumped into into the unknown and found his passion. Is there anything else from your experience that you would like to share with our listeners, they are artists, makers, directors, that you could say about space design, that's your, your last sparkle of wisdom. For

Katharina Aguilar: 42:10

I think everyone can become a space designer. That's my journey. And we sometimes really underestimate the power of space. And we think about our headspace, we got into that. That's a big trend. Now, everyone is kind of into the meditation game right now. But the next after our head, the next environment is our body. And we both are runners. So that's really important and sports. And the next closer space to you is your living space. And don't underestimate its power. If it's putting plans if it's just like cultivating it. I'm that kind of person. When I step into place, I just stop and look and let it flow through me, it really does flow through me. And that's why it's my passion. Because I feel every part if there's like, wires in the back of my apartment that I don't want there. It bugs me, it bugs me. And I think I'm really extreme about that. But many people come to me and say, how do you do it? When I come to your apartment? It's always like, ah, feels good. It's like a spa treatment. Why can't I have it in my home? I say you can. But you have to be aware of its power, just the way you are aware of the power of your body and your mind over your well being. And if we try and start to realize that and handle the space we live in, in this way, then then we will progress as human beings. I'm absolutely convinced of that.

Fabian Seewald: 43:51

Well, space hygiene, space innovation from the head through the body through our environment? Yes. Thanks so much for for these insights for this wisdom. And I will also recreate some space here

Katharina Aguilar: 44:02

it was just a pitch actually.

Fabian Seewald: 44:09

My space is probably by design a bit chaotic because sometimes these ideas emerge. Thanks so much for your for your time for your insight was Thank you.

Katharina Aguilar: 44:22

Thank you, too. I'm looking forward to

Fabian Seewald: 44:27

what an inspiring conversation with Katharina and as well a great catch up with my old study, buddy. Yeah, I really hope you enjoyed this episode. We're diving into different topics from the art towards events,

technology: 44:40

You can support us if you follow us on Instagram at SeeArts. Now, but as well subscribe on Spotify, or even leave us a review on Apple podcasts. That would mean a lot to me and the team. And yeah, let's keep in touch. Let's see arts.