In this episode, Director of Persyou, Nicholas McKie talks to Professor Christian Van Nieuwerburgh, Professor of coaching and positive psychology at the University of East London, UK and a leading authority on coaching in education. Christian discusses the relevance of coaching in times of uncertainty and explores the benefits of a coaching approach to leadership across school communities.
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In this episode, Director of Persyou, Nicholas McKie talks to Professor Christian Van Nieuwerburgh, Professor of coaching and positive psychology at the University of East London, UK and a leading authority on coaching in education. Christian discusses the relevance of coaching in times of uncertainty and explores the benefits of a coaching approach to leadership across school communities.
https://www.persyou.com/
Hello@persyou.com
https://www.youtube.com/@persyou
https://www.linkedin.com/company/persyou/
spk_0: 0:07
hello and welcome to soothe by pursue a bespoke leadership transition coaching company with a mission to create, nurture and develop inspiring leadership. Global education sector. My name is Nicolas Makhan, associate professor, certified professional coach, on Direct and I'll Be your host throughout the series of conversations with cutting edge storeys from across the global education sector, delving into the minds of recognising leaders to find out about the challenges on main issues they are facing on how they are responding in times of uncertainty. My guest today is Christian Ban Nuremburg, a leading academic and practitioner in the art of coaching and education, is professor of coaching and positive psychology at the University of East London on executive director of Growth Coaching International, a Sydney based global coach and provider for the education sector. Christine, thank you so much for coming
spk_1: 1:03
on, right? It's lovely to be here, Nicholas, Thank you for inviting me,
spk_0: 1:07
and we're actually location was not too far from each other than away.
spk_1: 1:12
That's right. I think we're only 10 minutes drive from one another, but both under a lock down. So it would have been lovely to come and see you over a coffee or something, but maybe in the near future.
spk_0: 1:26
Yeah, way, certainly Christian. But either both of us or one of us is the other side of the world doing some coaching whenever it's always difficult to kind of nails down, isn't it? So is greatly looking on the show. Um, so, firstly, how are things in this this time?
spk_1: 1:40
I think they're interesting times. Are they on DA? Um, most of my work involves training people to become coaches or is related to doing research around coaching or studying coaching on DH. So what we're having to do is learn How could we do a lot of these things virtually on DH? Initially, I was thinking it would be a kind of an emergency response. I'm learning so much about the potential off online learning on online meetings and events such as this. So I think, Ah, the interesting time, certainly. What about you? Yes,
spk_0: 2:25
it's been a little bit strange. Initially, I do some of my coaching work, as you know, into the university. Virtually anyway, there's been a little bit more time behind a screen which is being good to connect people at this time, but also quite exhausting as well at times. So it's being good points and bad
spk_1: 2:45
points. I think that's interesting. I think the exhaustion aspect of it was something that surprised me as well because, you know, as physically what I'm doing is I'm sitting in this very comfortable chair having a few, but I think they're That's interesting. Maybe these conversations are a bit more focused on finding they tend to be a little bit more focused. I've got colleagues, you know. I do a lot of work with colleagues in Australia on DH. I guess if we'd met face to face, there would have been a little bit more small talk. We would have bean chatting about things that we're on the periphery of the topic. But when it's Ah, conversation like this, I do feel there's a little bit of a focus and okay, let's so it feels a little bit like a condensed interaction. And maybe that's why at the end of ah, long day off meetings, virtual meetings, I do feel a bit drained. So that's an interesting observation.
spk_0: 3:44
How do you think this virtual coaching model is working generally and do? Do you think it's Ah benefit to connect people and have that more focus conversation? Or do you think this potential times when it can be not as productive tohave a virtual coaching session?
spk_1: 4:04
You know, I would have argued something differently before today, but I'm seeing advantages to virtual coaching, huge advantages in terms of time spent for, for example, for me to go and do a two hour coaching session with a school leader. That was a day's work, essentially by the time I got into where it wass and coming back. So there's a huge time advantage to doing this way, and then as long as we manage it appropriately, that idea of these are more focused. They tend to be a little bit sharper, a little bit more focused. And what I'm also finding helpful is that in some ways it can feel less intense for the coach e. So on the receiving end, the other person isn't sitting in the room eyeballing me. There's opportunity for my coochie to look out of the window. I've had zoom by coaching conversations where the coochie has said, Can I just pop out, grab a bottle of water? Can I make myself a coffee. So I think in some ways it takes a little bit of the pressure off. Um, so I'm Ah, and another thing I trained a lot of people to be. Coaches are probably a trained thousands of people to become coaches. And I think the bias we might have towards face to face coaching is probably because most of us were in this business actually care about people we like to be with people we like to be supportive. So maybe the bias towards the belief that it should be done face to face might come. I'm just speculating here, but might come a little bit more from the coaches themselves who really like these kind of intimate, meaningful, significant relationships that happened face to face. But I'm just thinking aloud here with you. I
spk_0: 6:04
mean, so how do you think coaching is relevant to this current situation? I've spoken to a lot of school leaders from all over the world during this series of podcasts on DH. Certain themes coming through about this need for concise communication, robust dialogue, authenticity and empathy. So how do you think coaching fits into this current situation?
spk_1: 6:29
Well and again, a listeners to this have to bear in mind that I've got a big interest in this. So you have to take into account. There might be a bias here. I'm gonna try and be as objective as possible. Ah, but I genuinely believe that coaching is a particularly relevant intervention right now during these times. And what do I say that well, first of all, I want to acknowledge all the listeners on your programme because I think educators and educational leaders are doing amazing job in very, very challenging circumstances. And I think what where we all find ourselves is a situation in which, um you know, the future is very uncertain. And I think that applies to colleagues globally. Wherever we're talking to people, there's one type of uncertainty or another. So what? What coaching allows us to do is to explore, um, what possibilities might emerge. Coaching is a very real time intervention, Andi. So I think coaching is powerful firstly, because it'll allow it's a conversation. It's a reflective conversation that allows the school leader to identify next steps, maybe set a long term ambition or vision about what is they'd like to achieve, but then take small steps that are developed in conversation with a coach, which allows the leader to make decisions and take steps that are perfectly contextual. They're the experts of their situation. You know, we have a situation that we're there's global experts and of various kinds, um, trying to understand where this pandemic is going. But there's no easy solutions. Nobody's gonna be able to come along and tell any school leader this is exactly what you need to do for the next six months. So coaching is powerful for that reason. But some of the other reasons I want to highlight is educational leader. Leaders need support to sew in terms ofthe ah, what us asking the question? Who provides the support for the educational leaders? I think coaching is part of that because educational leaders, you know when they're facing their school or educational community, they have to put on a leadership role. They have to come across as our confidence, despite various challenges that may, they need to have be presenting a clear vision, and at the same time they need to have a channel where they can voice some of their own concerns, anxieties worries. So I think on the final thing is, leaders can use coaching with their teams as a way of staying connected as a way of showing empathy on DSO. For all these reasons, I think coaching is particularly timely right now.
spk_0: 9:54
Some great points, their Christian and just in terms of what that could look like operationally, you mentioned about the power coaching and keeping in contact with t use at a distance. Three coaching. And what would that look like in operation?
spk_1: 10:11
Yeah, on. And you know, I'm having the opportunity to speak to educators in different parts of the world as well. And different education systems are managing this situation differently. But some examples would be to think about Pierre coaching for school leaders. Now. I've just acknowledged that every context is different in every school leader will be managing a particular situation. But how wonderful would it be if there were another school leader? Maybe a slightly different context, and they have these Pierre coaching conversations now What I mean, back to coaching is its, um, non directive facility, a tive Pierre conversations where basically one of the school leaders would simply be a sounding board, somebody who would be managing the conversation while the other school leader thinks aloud as it were, and comes up with a plan of action. But it would be reciprocal and non evaluative and non judgmental. Hopefully so that's one way of operational ising. This is, Ah, school leaders, finding partner leaders who are prepared to have thes thinking conversations. It would be good for their well being as well as you know, for developing ideas. The other is. You can use a coaching frameworks or models as, ah, ways of managing conversations with a school leadership team or a whole school team, for example. And what I mean by that and on. This is a way of bringing purpose and energy to meetings, virtual meetings. So the most well known coaching conversational framework is the grow model, I would say, developed by Sir John Whitmore on DSO. In that example, you would have AA team together, and you would be saying at the beginning, right, this is the goal. And where are we now in relation to that? And you didn't vote the whole team in that conversation. Then you involve the team in developing options and say right, if that was our go on. We're here now. What are the first steps? What are the options? And then it finishes with way forward so that it just brings that energy and structure to meeting. That's another example. Other other ways of operational ising. This is during these times finding ways to connect students with one another on DH in a similar way. Train students to coach one another on DH so hopefully they're receiving the content of the curriculum, either in school or virtually at the moment. But what a great opportunity of two pair students up to support each other? No, not in the curriculum, but in the manage. How do we manage our days? How we're gonna fit, you know, going spending time with family and doing study. So maybe my idea would be either haired study support or paired wellbeing support with between students on other other really interesting ways and my colleague Jim Knight in the United States with instructional coaching group, his work around instructional coaching on that could be done very effectively through the you online as well through the use of video. So another example would be ah, you know, using video to observe teaching practise and that that could be a teacher delivering a session online. Ah, she could record herself giving an online lecture. I could be doing this now, for example. And then what? What I would do is I would send the video off my how I managed this conversation to my instructional coach. My instructional coach would then watch the video, and then we could go through a coaching cycle to help us to help me, to improve my practise. So I think all of the ways that are available face to face are probably available now. But my argument is that because of the need for Connexion to stay connected, the need for motivation, the need to think about people's well being even more than normal coaching is probably appropriate right now.
spk_0: 14:55
Great. Take away their question. Thanks so much. I'm really interested to explore this idea of models based coaching. Yeah, hey, mentioned the grown model there and of course you have other models, just the growth model with growth coat coaching. So it could be argued that the demands on leaders at this moment in time has grown massively. Yeah, So a court challenge, potentially for coach is is to meet a CZ. You mentioned the demands of this new paradigm of education. So it has been argued, as we mentioned before, that models potentially, you know, always capture this dynamic and complexity. So in what way do you think it a purely models based approach can be fit for purpose and take into account the complexities of school leadership?
spk_1: 15:41
That's a great question. Let me just reflect on that a second. Yeah, I think I want to say two things about this. I want to answer your question in two parts of the first part is around the complexity. So for me, coaching is should be Ah ah, fairly simple interaction that acknowledges the complexity that's out there and, you know, even before the current crisis, Um, school leadership is incredibly complex on schools, are very complex places. So I think coaching frameworks on models should be simple and should be relatively easy to implement because the topics that are brought are so complex. So what? I don't think it's helpful is a complex model or some sort of complex theorising about on getting to, you know, burdened with the complexity of a model which is addressing the complexity of life, so I like the idea of a simple model to deal with complex situations. But what that means they're therefore is the coaches have to be, um, able to to implement these models, understanding the complexity on being able to use them sensitively and with nuance. And the most recent book I've published is called Advanced Coaching Practise. I've written it with my good colleague David Love, and that book is all about the complexity, the huge complexity of coaching. But even there we would suggest using models as the basis, and I've started using the term framework not to distinguish So this. There's three interesting words I want to mention now, Aunt, tell me if I'm getting off track. But one word is model one word is framework, and one word is process. What's become clearer to me is that when we, you know, grow ah is no to process ah, grow on growth. In our case of GC, we've used the growth framework, these air simply like scaffolds for conversation There, a framework on what the coach needs to know very well is a framework, and we use that framework to manage the process. But I think what we've been saying wrongly up to now is that the coach manages the process, which we cannot do is the process is complex. There's two human beings. At least there's all sorts of other things going on. So yet so frameworks are important because I'm familiar with G. C. I. I can see a little bit more about that. So in the growth coaching international in our organisation, there's three things that form effective coaching. One of them is a framework, the other is a set of skills, and the third thing is what we call a coaching way of being. And if you think about it, these three things are helpful beyond simply coaching. You can use these skills on the framework on the way of being as a leadership style, you can use it to manage meetings. All of these three elements are valuable and mentoring as well. So if somebody's a mentor, you still want to have good listening skills. Billet asked. Good questions. You still need a conversational framework so you can use the growth framework to have a mentoring conversation and a coaching way of being, I think is essential for all educators all the time everywhere. What are we
spk_0: 19:37
talking here Christian about? You mentioned. Those three approaches look like models that skills in a way of being when we're looking the appreciation of a coaching repertoire. Are we talking? Essentially start off learning a model with some of the coaching that I do into internationally. People get quite hung upon, trying to adhere to that model to the detriment potentially of actually active listening or thinking about the skills that they're trying to implement. Are we talking about the first step? Is the models or it'll be the first with the skills, or is it looking at your presence?
spk_1: 20:09
That's amazing. Question. And look, I think that essentially at the end, the most important thing is what I'm calling the coaching wave being, which is encouraging, supportive, interested in other people's well being all of these things. But there's a tension here, which you've highlighted when we learn about coaching we have. We can't start with a coaching way of being because this is something that develops. That is the least clear specific thing. There's something about authenticity, and there there's something about being genuine. So when we learn about that, we have to start either with the skills or with the framework. My view is, all educators have the skills already on. It's simply case of honing those skills. It's sharpening the skills. We use them slightly differently in coaching. But the framework is a good place to start. Because of its simplicity that I mentioned earlier. It's relatively simple. It doesn't take long to explain. This is how the process works. The framework works. Now what's interesting there. And I've experienced what you've mentioned as well, because you're learning something new like a framework. You do get caught up with that and you're thinking, Am I getting a ride? A mind the right I might have asked the right questions. And this thing of, um, I doing it right can get in the way of our presence to use that word that you just used. And so, But for me, that's necessary. Part of the process, almost like when a person is learning to drive a car because we're so engrossed initially and, um, I looking in the mirrors, am I? We're not comfortable. It feels a little bit clunky. It first, so for me, that's a necessary part of it. But I would caution against getting too stuck on the mobile itself or the framework, because we have to remind ourselves what is coaching ultimately about? And coaching is ultimately about putting the best interest of the co chief first, so we can't put anything before that. We can't say no. The model comes first, or the process or the frame work comes first, so it's very important that while we learned this, we start to be able to use it more flexibly, and it's very, very important to get that message across in education. Because educators are never pure, coaches were not expecting educators to always be coaches. As we said, education's a very complex space. All educators will be skipping across this continuum between. Sometimes I have to have very directive, very clear conversations. Sometimes they're going to be in a mentoring role. Sometimes they're going to be in a facility, a tive listening role and the person or the people who so who experienced this challenge the most. I would suggest our educational leaders because Andi, I've never suggested that educational leaders should all become coaches. I do believe, though, that if educators have a repertoire, especially educational leaders ofthe styles and approaches, I do think it's helpful for them to have a coaching approach as something that's within their repertoire off leadership style
spk_0: 23:39
in terms of supposed reflecting on my own coating practise mind felt probably is to be non directive. Well, I'm very aware that sometimes and that's what we're the people that I'm coaching, especially school leaders in yourself, Christian. It's just like, Well, just tell me what to do in this situation. You know, I haven't I haven't got the time here. Time's precious resource. I want to tell me what to do. Understandably, on my default sometimes can. I wouldn't say annoy people. But it's what it's not my decision to make, essentially, which knows what you're saying about the coaching approach. So what's your default?
spk_1: 24:14
What a great question of my my default. Let me. I prefer to use the word preference. Let also preference. So I guess my natural preference without any other pressures on me would be towards the less directive side off the continue s o. My preference is to help people to think things through for themselves, my preferences and not to give advice or suggestions, so I guess that would be my preference on DH. However, like we're saying in educational, educational leaders, I think need to be able to work right across the continue. Having said that, it's very important also for educational leaders, I guess, to know what their preferences are. And it's simply so. For example, if I were to become an educational leader, I would say that if my preferences towards the less directive end of this continue, what I need to practise and develop is towards the more directive end of that spectrum or continue on DH, I think that So what I'm advocating, I guess, and this goes for educational leaders as well as educators is to be able to work across this, continue in the best interest of learners or the people that they're working with. And the first step to be able to work across this continuum is to raise personal awareness or self awareness about my preference on DH. I've worked with many educators all over the world, and there's a there's a range, there's there's people who naturally have I moved towards one tendency or another. Now what about leadership I'm I'm not sure whether because of the expectations of leaders in many Western kind of leadership or management structures, whether there might be a tendency that those who are able to be more directive or have a tendency towards being directive are, you know, promoted or are successful in getting leadership. Girls, I'm not sure, but yeah, I guess if somebody's telling me they want to train to be a coach, then I'd be saying, Well, my view is you have to really train up in the being comfortable with being known directive. If you're an educational leader, I think you have to actually be comfortable working right across the continue
spk_0: 26:58
again. That mirrors s o the conversations I've had on this part with executive heads and head teachers, who Andi again mirrors the coaching. What I do generally with leaders feel they have to be directive most of the time. And in some ways, during this this recent time crisis, as we have said, he has been in need to be directive, certain things and to happen on DH. I think about you, Christian, but I find when I do coaching training, sometimes people think they have to be either a mental and give advice or a coach. And as you mentioned that, continue. It's about that self awareness of where you need to swing when you need to swing in what circumstances I think that's that's come across a massively and it's very much like this idea of conceptual pluralism and leadership took with them. Tony Bush. One size doesn't fit all It's about having that that talk isn't it
spk_1: 27:47
exactly right? You hit the nail on the head there on DH. I think the really valuable thing emerging from this conversation is for for educational leaders to be able to determine clearly that the reason that they're moving towards either directive or non direct response to any situation is to do with what's needed in that situation with that person rather than it being the default. So if on we have to be very cautious of this because, um, studies and psychology would suggest that under pressure, which we probably all are under to some extent right now, we do move back to our default or a preference. So I think during these times it becomes even more important to say OK, there are some things where I must be directive as a leader on DH. There's good reason for it because the context calls for it or this group of people. I'm working with calls for it or whether without knowing it, we're just being drawn to our the response that we go to when we're under pressure. And but let me say something about the I don't have time scenario, which is it's a huge reality in educational settings. And almost every educational organisation I worked with would say Look, there's time pressure on us and although it's great to hear about all these coaching type initiatives, we just haven't got time for it. And we just need I think I think it's important to challenge that perception on DH. It's really about, um, thinking, How do we utilise the time that is available to us on DH? There's a negative cycle we can get into, which is we don't really have time to, you know, spend a lot on this. I don't have time to coach people. I'm just gonna tell them what they need to do because we don't have time. And then once you get into this pattern, the recipient is expecting you to tell them what to do. And you can get into this pattern on even if you were to ask your team. Okay. What do you think you should do? They've gotten into the pattern off. Look, just tell May. So we do need to break out of that pattern on. I'm not talking about just schools here. I'm talking about within our educational systems. I think sometimes this just tell us what to do. You can go right from the top of the education system. But the point is that that is contagious. And if we tell people what to do if it goes right down to students, where in the end, the teachers saying Let's just do this because, you know, just do this. And so I'd love to us to be able to challenge that because, you know, coaching is all about valuing the autonomy. The self determination of each person and coaching for me is about creating ideal environments for to encourage curiosity and allow people to learn, grow and develop. So coaching for me is really at the heart of education. So that's why I pushed back a little bit when there's ah kind of a sense that look, we haven't actually got time to do that because I'm thinking, well, coaching that approach is kind of at the heart of some of the ways of thinking about learning
spk_0: 31:23
There is, and it's always that question. Is it? Look, Nick, what the real benefits for me having this, this coaching? And that's actually when schools are asking for resource. Yeah, it's always that we should get a great coaching question. If I say yes to this, Nick, what am I going to say no to? Yes, all right. In terms of benefits, Chris, you know, how would you even say sell coaching? But if you still need to ask you that in this particular time when but it's a bit up and down, how would you respond to that?
spk_1: 31:54
Yeah, well, I'll refer to the research on this because, anecdotally, if people were curious about this question, if it were an anecdotal answer, they want I'd be saying, Go to schools who have adopted it because, like you say, Nick, it's impossible to sell coaching. I don't think that's possible. The best place to learn about the value of coaching would be to go to school that really embraced it. And there's huge champions off coaching in many schools that have worked with and they're champions of it, Nick, because it's working and they'll they'll come and say, Well, the quality of conversations is different. There's more motivation. People are more, go focused. There's more empowerment. But let me refer to the research, which is Ah, through my University of East London. Ro, I've bean researching coaching in education over the last 10 years or so. I'm not sharing my own research, but just what the research is saying. So what are the benefits? Well, it's been shown to improve staff performance. If you provide coaching for your teachers, there's research to show that it improves stuff performance. It's been shown to enhance staff well being. So the provision of coaching to staff and houses well being, it's been shown to be a good way to embed CPD continuing professional development. That's a big question. That's another global question. Many educators are rightly saying, Do these one day courses do they really lead to a change in practise in our educational institution? If schools are finding their not, I think, providing coaching following such professional development could, they might see a difference. It's being shown is a good way of providing peer support between educators. As we've already mentioned, it's a good way of supporting training teachers. It improves the quality of conversations, so that's across education. Generally, it can improve wellbeing. It can improve performance. But what can you do for educational leadership? There's a study by Roads and Fletcher, for example, in 2013 that shows it increases self efficacy in school leaders and self efficacy is that belief that people have that they're going to be able to achieve things they set out to achieve and imagine in towns like this having self efficacious leaders, in other words, leaders who think, you know, if we set a plan, we're going to be able to work towards that that's so critical it's been shown to enhance leadership skills. These are my colleagues of mine in Australia, attorney Grant and Suzy Green, for example. They they saw that providing coaching to school leaders enhance their leadership skills in general, and there's a number of US studies that show that it just it can also support leadership development, make if I've got time I just want to show to studies that I've been involved in with that this
spk_0: 34:52
day. Please take Christine. Please. D'oh!
spk_1: 34:54
Okay, so very recently with a colleague of my uncle Dirk Anthony, we did a thematic analysis, so that's a qualitative piece of research about the experience off school leaders who introduced coaching into their organisations. And this has been published in the International Journal of Mentoring and Coaching in Education and what we found in that study and these are interesting things, I think, for school leaders think about one. Personal beliefs about coaching are influenced by prior experiences. So school leaders beliefs about the effectiveness or otherwise of coaching has been influenced by their own professional experience in the past. In other words, if they had a very positive experience of coaching that had a wonderful coach or they went on some excellent coach training, they're more likely to view it positively. And if they've had a personally negative experience, they might view it negatively. And there was frustration about the pace of change. So this is an important message for school leaders. Is the idea of coaching cultures hugely attractive for us, but the recognition of those take time. It's not a matter of weeks or even months when we've looked at the research. It's years in the making this idea of creating a coaching culture on the pressure of conflicting demands. Again, I hugely admire school leaders because I think looking at a whole range of professions, this is where it's experienced more than any other. Is this pressure of conflicting demands? So the government's expecting something, or the board of governors is expecting something on DH. Students are expecting something parents society. So this these conflicting demands when you're trying to introduce a coaching culture with mentioned again and again feelings of isolation during the time of trying to bring these into fruition the need for confidence to see things through. But throughout the most positive of all of this is all of the leaders we spoke to. We spoke Teo, 18 leaders across the United Kingdom is that they experienced personal growth. So an interesting side of this research was that leaders who had introduced coaching into their organisations recognise that they had grown personally through the process of developing coaching cultures within their organisation. So that was one study where we wanted to know. What is it like for school leader to introduce coaching into their organisation and the 2nd 1 which isn't published yet? So you're getting a sneak preview, but it's also going to be in the International Journal of Mentoring and Coaching and Education is about a project in Victoria in Australia, where a number of school leaders were provided with 1 to 1 ah, educational leadership coaching on DH, we asked them about their experiences. What was it like to receive? Wants one coaching? And this was done alongside a leadership development programme? They were all these. This is also very interesting. So, um, the participants of this study really highlighted how valuable it was to have time to reflect. So there's a theme of time again. And for school leaders, this felt like protected time for thinking and because of the business of everyday life in schools, colleges, universities that Khun B sometimes in short supply the other thing because they were speaking to people outside their own school, this idea feeling safe to explore. So there's this idea and coaching one to encouraging, which was confidential, gave them a sense of safety so they could actually think and talk about whatever it wass that was on their mind in relation to their professional goal. That third thing, I think very powerful. And I hope your listeners will be able to relate to this. This experience on focusing on what's important for me is the phrase we used, and this comes from the fact that educational leaders most of their professional time is focused on what's important for others. So they're spending a lot of time is involved. Reid. How are the staff? Are the students how the parents and caress? And so this felt like really valuable time for educators to say, Well, what do I need right now? What are the things I need to be able to continue to provide this level of support? Others on DH again? Encouragingly, there was consistency that they all experienced positive emotions in relation to receiving, so it felt like a positive experience. So that's that that's going to be published this year in that journal on. Both for me, give me a little bit of insight into. I've learned a lot about how challenging it is to be an educational leader, but because coaching is, it's the ultimate form of personalised at learning and development. Andi, every school leader will be having different experiences. So I do think that this one toe one support can be crucial, especially during challenging times like this.
spk_0: 40:25
So it's a wonderful insights, their creation. Thank you for sharing those. I mean again, it really does. If I could summarise the coach and I do a senior leaders, it's I can see across the board that they generally neglect their own personal growth. Yeah, and they focus all their time on there on the team. That could be fantastically motivational. But it also couldn't stop their team developing as well. And again, if I have to summarise them with the key themes I went with educational leaders on is how can they do less but actually achieved more? So I mean, you mentioning that talk about that that resource at time to have a specific 1 to 1 coaching? Yeah, me. That that's fantastic stuff is now.
spk_1: 41:08
It absolutely is that. And I think that that would be an important message for now, particularly because again, if our tendency is to think about others if our tendency is to focus on the growth and development of others, especially during times like this. We question leaders need to ask is how do we sustain ourselves during this time so that we can be of service to others? Because we all have limited energy. We all have limited resources, however resourceful we are, we're all human. So I think you know, my my kind of thought about all of this during these times is just remembering that looking after ourselves is an important part of looking after others. It's not separate to that. And I know many school leaders will feel it's kind of indulgent to do this, to say I'm going to spend time looking after myself. However no, what we're saying is, how can I be the best that I could be under the circumstances so that I could be of better service to others?
spk_0: 42:15
Fantastic stuff in terms of yourself, Christian. One of the real challenges for you at this time.
spk_1: 42:22
That's a great question. You know, I think the big challenge for me is I'm an optimist. Andi, you know, I studied positive psychology on guess I came to post of psychology because I think there's great value in studying these things. So I guess that's particularly challenging because for an optimist, um, you know, I'm very much looking forward to. I'm focusing on what's good about now. I'm focusing on what's the benefits that might come out of this situation. But while we're doing that, we have to recognise the real challenges that are happening now. We have to recognise that people are many people are suffering and some health related suffering, of course, that we read about in the paper, but a lot of I might use the term invisible suffering off, actually being in isolation, not being able to be with loved ones. No, for people who get a lot of value out of the work, they do people who care passionately about supporting learners. There could be old sort of challenges from now. So I guess my that's being the balance for me to strike is not seeming to ah, ignore or downplay the severity of what's happening now. I do think this is catastrophic, what's happening now, and yet the positive side of May keep saying to me, Look, there's something I'm sure there are, but this is really like silver lining stuff. I do think, You know, for there to be a silver lining, there has to be a cloud. And so there is a cloud right now and it's how do we acknowledge the cloud and deal with the cloud, but not let it kind of completely demoralised all of us, Because, especially educators, we have to remain hopeful. We have to continue to find the energy and motivation to do the work that we do. So that's being the challenge
spk_0: 44:23
you mentioned there about finding what's good about now. So what? What do you feel good about now, Christian?
spk_1: 44:30
What's good about now? Nick, in this pre conversation before we started this company, I think we're touching on those things. Um, so I think the slowing down has been helpful. Um ah. Allowing for more time to reflect. Probably for me now. I grew up in in the Middle East on DH. I grew up during a time when there was conflict pretty severe conflict on DA. It was very difficult times, and often I felt that there was a kind of a lack of empathy to the suffering that was going on where I was growing up from. Come global media So 11 thing that's that's I'm I'm hoping will emerge from this is we're all in this together right now And I think if we could be more empathetic about the suffering ofthe people all over the world and I think this provides us with a unique opportunity So maybe one positive. Is that the kind of the restrictions that we have now? Which again, if we look at it on a global scale, the restrictions we face in the United Kingdom are are not as severe as some of the restrictions that people are facing on a daily basis and have been facing for maybe tens of years. So maybe this ability to for us is, ah, global community to address suffering. If that emerges from this, I would be delighted, um, and the final thing and again, we talked about this just before the coal is I've got a deeper appreciation for what we can do virtually on DH. I'm learning every day that actually there's a lot of Connexion You can do really enjoyed this conversation with you today, Nick. And you know it's true. You and I were trying to me that we only live then 10 minutes. But I know it wasn't it. And yet now we've had a long conversation because of this need for us to kind of just be in one place for some time. So there are some benefits, hopefully already and
spk_0: 46:51
some that I hope will emerge. That's great. Well, thank you so much again, Christian, for agreeing to have this conversation. It's great to finish on a positive note on Look forward when this spans being lifted a little bit. We could meet for that coffee. Yes, and meet face to face. If you want any more information about the Christian does Christian, what's the best way of getting in contact with you?
spk_1: 47:12
Well, if you go on Twitter might be best. It's at Christian. The end is my Twitter account on If you're If anybody's interested in the work of growth Coaching international, they can just Google Growth Coaching International on DSI, our website. We provide a whole range of coaching related services for educators. So, um on I'm always interested in coaching and education.
spk_0: 47:38
Many thanks again for your time, Christian. Take care and look forward to speaking to you against you. Thanks so much. Thank you. If you are interested in the leadership, coaching and development offerings pursuit or like to connect to discuss any of the topics and show, please send me an email at hello at ASU dot com or visit our website pursue dot com. You can also follow me on linked in at Nikki's Makai or pursue Take care Ford speaking.