Sepia Tones: Exploring Black Appalachian Music—E5: Amythyst Kiah with Jack Tottle

Dr. William Turner and Dr. Ted Olson talk to Amythyst Kiah, an acclaimed musician and songwriter whose work is redefining genre boundaries and has established her as a distinctive new voice of Appalachia. Reconnecting with Amythyst in this episode is her mentor, Jack Tottle, an accomplished musician with a long career as a singer, songwriter, author, and educator.

Amythyst Kiah has won critical acclaim as a member of the group Our Native Daughters and for her most recent album, Wary + Strange, which melds roots traditions with alternative rock in songs of personal revelation. She is a native of Chattanooga, TN, and a graduate of East Tennessee State University's Bluegrass, Old-Time, and Roots program. She received a Grammy nomination in 2020 for “Black Myself," a song she wrote to confront the oppression of her ancestors and to honor their strength.

Jack Tottle is a multi-instrumentalist, recording artist, songwriter, author, and educator whose career has allowed him to share the stage with some of America’s most revered bluegrass artists. He founded the first comprehensive bluegrass music studies program at a four-year university, East Tennessee State's Bluegrass, Old-Time, and Roots Music Studies program, which celebrates its 40th anniversary this year. For many years, he has examined the significant influence of Black Appalachian music on the bluegrass canon.

Dr. William Turner is an African American studies scholar and retired Distinguished Professor of Appalachian Studies and Regional Ambassador from Berea College. He was also a research assistant to Roots author Alex Haley and co-editor of the groundbreaking Blacks in Appalachia. In 2021, Turner received Western Carolina University's individual Mountain Heritage Award in recognition of his outstanding contributions to Southern Appalachian studies. His memoir The Harlan Renaissance, available from West Virginia University Press, was awarded the prestigious Weatherford Award at the 2022 Appalachian Studies Association Conference.

Dr. Ted Olson is a music historian and professor of Appalachian Studies at East Tennessee State University. He is the author of many books, articles, reviews, encyclopedia entries, and oral histories. Olson has produced and compiled a number of documentary albums of traditional Appalachian music including GSMA’s On Top of Old Smoky and Big Bend Killing. His work has received a number of awards, including seven Grammy nominations. The East Tennessee Historical Society honored Olson with its Ramsey Award for Lifetime Achievement in 2021.

Music featured includes:

1.    “John Henry” and “Pretty Polly” performed by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from GSMA’s album Big Bend Killing

2.    “The Bluegrass Sound” by Jack Tottle, from a collaborative album he produced called The Bluegrass Sound and Other Stories

3.    “Black Myself” performed live by Amythyst Kiah for our podcast. Recordings are available on Songs of Our Native Daughters and Wary + Strange

4.    “Goin Down this Road Feelin’ Bad” performed by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from GSMA’s album On Top of Old Smoky: New Old-Time Smoky Mountain Music

Transcript

Sepia Tones, Episode #5
“Amythyst Kiah with Jack Tottle”
Hosts: Bill Turner, Ted Olson
Guest: Amythyst Kiah and Jack Tottle

[Guitar and banjo music and singing / "John Henry" by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from Big Bend Killing]

Amythyst Kiah
So what I learned from my parents, and I think was one of the most fundamentally important lessons that I think I've ever learned in life, is that you can allow your mind that curiosity to explore what you want to explore and what you look like doesn't have to determine what you're supposed to be doing.

Karen Key
Welcome to Smoky Mountain Air and our special mini-series Sepia Tones: Exploring Black Appalachian Music. I’m Karen Key, and in this episode, our mini-series co-hosts Dr. William Turner and Dr. Ted Olson will be speaking to Amythyst Kiah, an acclaimed singer-songwriter whose genre-defying music has established her as a distinctive new voice of Appalachia. Reconnecting with Amythyst in this episode is one of her mentors, Jack Tottle, an accomplished musician with a long career as a singer, songwriter, author, and educator.

This mini-series is funded through the African American Experiences in the Smokies project in collaboration with Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Dr. Turner and Dr. Olson spoke with Amythyst Kiah and Jack Tottle on an online video chat.

[Guitar strumming and singing / "Black Myself" by Amythyst Kiah]

Ted Olson
Welcome to Sepia Tones: Exploring Black Appalachian Music. I’m Ted Olson with my co-host Bill Turner.

Our guests on this episode include Amythyst Kiah, a brilliant musician and songwriter whose creative work connects the realms of folk, blues, and rock. She’s a native of Chattanooga, TN, and a graduate of East Tennessee State University’s Bluegrass, Old-Time and Roots Music Studies program. Amythyst’s early success was in interpreting Appalachian music traditions. She received a Grammy nomination in 2020 for “Black Myself,” a song she wrote and performed as a member of the group Our Native Daughters. Her most recent release is the album Wary and Strange, which Rolling Stone magazine included in its list of 25 Best Country and Americana albums of 2021.

Our second guest is Jack Tottle, a multi-instrumental musician, singer, songwriter, author, and educator who founded the first comprehensive bluegrass music studies program at a four-year university, East Tennessee State University's Bluegrass, Old-Time, and Roots Music Studies program. Jack has toured and recorded with some of America's most revered bluegrass musicians and has interviewed and discussed music with iconic artists. For many years, he has examined the significant influence of Black Appalachian music on the bluegrass canon.

Ted Olson
Let's just jump in and get started. One of the exciting opportunities today is to hear from two people whose paths in music crossed in Johnson City, Tennessee, and that would be our special guests, Jack Tottle and Amythyst Kiah. Maybe we'll start with Amythyst.

Amythyst, what brought you to Johnson City and when did you meet up with Jack Tottle?

Amythyst Kiah
Me and my father both came to Johnson City, Tennessee, around spring of 2006. Honestly, we were in Johnson City to kind of have a fresh start. My mother passed away when I was 17 in 2004, right before I graduated from high school. So there was—you know—after a couple more years there, was just time to kind of start fresh in a new place. So we, came to Johnson City, had family here. I'd been coming up to Johnson City really for holidays all through my childhood. So I was familiar with the city, but never thought I would necessarily live there. So that was sort of a different turn of events that was unexpected. 

But anyway, so I started going to East Tennessee State University, and I decided I wanted to take a year to just get settled into Johnson City and kind of, you know, go through my grief. And I decided I wanted to take some sort of music class, I looked in the course catalog, and I did an audit for classical guitar, because I had taken a classical guitar class in high school. But, for me it was a little too formal and rigid, because I had been learning to play by ear for the past four or five years up until that point. So I just wasn't sure it was something I wanted to commit to. 

But then I came across bluegrass guitar, and I had no idea about bluegrass guitar. All I knew about bluegrass was, like, the Beverly Hillbillies, you know. I had just zero knowledge about any traditional music at that point. But I was really curious because, you know, I've always been very open-minded and curious about music. . So I was like, “Well, let me see what this class is about.” 

And I remember I called Jack, because he was the one teaching the class, and it was a group class. And I remember one of the first things I asked him was if I had to, like, sight read or, like, know how to read sheet music. And I remember him laughing because I don't, I don't think too many people had asked that question. And he told me that this was an oral tradition. People learned from one another. So everything that you're equipped with—being able to listen, learning how to read guitar tablature—like, you'd be a perfect fit. So, so yeah, I took that course and then that one course led into another. I took American folk music from you, Dr. Olson. So learning that cultural aspect and also just the encouragement and warmth I felt from all the faculty and especially, you know, especially, Jack, you know, because we had that conversation before going into class—really bringing the understanding that there's more than one way to be a musician and to be able to offer this kind of music as an outlet to pursue in college is a very rare, special thing. So that's kind of how I got introduced into traditional music. And, yeah, my curiosity just kind of kept me going and had a lot of fun with it. 

Ted Olson
Great… Jack, what's your thought on the matter of when you met Amythyst and perhaps loop it back to all your work here at East Tennessee State University.

Jack Tottle
Yeah, well, I was certainly glad to see Amythyst, to meet her the first time. And I remember talking to her about where she was from. I was a little surprised. We didn't have a lot of African American students studying in the bluegrass program—we've had some. But here's this woman, and she's obviously, even at a relatively young age, she had wonderful musical ability. Actually, she gave me a couple of songs that she had written. And I don't know, Amythyst, if you remember what those songs were, but I remember I was so impressed with them that... 

Amythyst Kiah
(laughing) I cannot, I don't remember. I don't remember. 

Jack Tottle
Well, anything that you had prior to 2006… But they were really good and I thought, are you sure you need guitar lessons? Because you played really well, even though it certainly wasn't in a bluegrass or old-time style. So, I just felt like I was definitely struck by your ability and had no idea where it would lead you. 

But at any rate, I was amazed when you did start performing with the ETSU old-time band. It's really a pre-bluegrass type of music that is so important in the culture of Appalachian music. It seemed like Roy Andrade, who was the director of that band, seemed to really believe in your music. It looked to me like he really encouraged you. 

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah.

Jack Tottle
And I've just been, again, reacquainting myself with some of the clips that you have put online in YouTube—some of the traditional songs like "Bury Me Beneath the Willow" and “Darling Corey.” And reading all the exciting comments that they've gotten. I mean, if anybody said that much about my music, probably my head would explode. You seem to be handling it very well, which is wonderful because, great musical ability is a gift, but it's also a great challenge because you're going to be surrounded by people who keep wanting to tell you how wonderful you are, regardless of whether each thing is wonderful or not. 

Amythyst Kiah
Mm-hmm.

Jack Tottle 
So a lot of people can't handle that too well. 

Amythyst Kiah 
Yeah…

Jack Tottle 
I suspect that you have, just from those comments, people whom you have touched so deeply with your music. And they're so enthusiastic in their expression of it. Wonderful. 

Amythyst Kiah 
Thank you. It's interesting because in the beginning when I first started really singing and playing in front of more and more people, part of me, for a long time, had a hard time accepting that they were being honest with me. I didn't really trust when someone said they actually liked something that I did, you know? And a lot of it was in my own head. I've found once you leave high school, most people, they don't come up to you and compliment you unless they mean it in some way. 

So I learned that, and then I got to this point where, I started to kind of get caught up in the hype on a local level, like, when I really started playing a lot in the area, back between like 2013 and 2015. And I went through this period where everywhere I went, if I went out, people would buy me drinks, people would tell me how wonderful I am. And then that part of me that wanted that attention and adulation for something really fed into that. I never got to a point where I was, like, rude or hateful to anybody. But it was a thing where it was planting the seed that could have created that monster. And I was able to sort of like wake up before it was too late. 

I mean, I'm 35 now, so it's like, over the past 15 years, I've learned that your teens and your twenties are, like. really hard. You are trying to figure out who you are versus who other people think you should be. So now I'm in this space where I'm really learning how to own all of those experiences and know that when someone says, “I really love your music…” a particular song helped them get through a difficult time. All of that, I really take all that to heart.

But no matter if someone says they love your music or says they don't love your music—because there's also that—at the end of day, it's about: Am I doing what I want to do? Because no matter what you decide to do, there will be people that like it, but you have to align yourself with that and realize your own power. 

Getting older is actually, it's been a bit of a blessing, I think. Now I feel like I've kind of figured most of this stuff out, but I'm also realizing that, like, I'm never going to figure everything out and to live this life the best I can, you know?

[Guitar and banjo music and singing / "Pretty Polly" by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from Big Bend Killing]

Ted Olson
Amythyst, you know Bill Turner, of course, right? You all know one another?

Bill Turner
Hello, there, Amythyst…

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah, hey. I think I played—it was me and I think somebody from either Old-Time Pride Band or Celtic Band—I can’t remember. But opened when you came to give a talk at the Culp Center, like, 2010, or something like that. It’s been a minute. Then I saw you again. You were also at another thing that happened at Asheville—I can’t remember what it’s called now. But anyway, yeah, so I’ve seen you a few times to see you speak, so it’s great to be able to have a conversation.

Bill Turner
Amythyst, it looks like you're projected to make quite an impact in shaping what people think when they think of the type of music you do in the Appalachian region or in the Appalachian canon. So how do you see yourself shaping and reflecting Appalachia in that sense? 

Amythyst Kiah
Well, so, I've been rethinking about, like, what are my values and principles as a person. And I think one of the things that's always stuck with me is that what you listen to, by default, should not be a determinant for the color of your skin, your sexual orientation, your gender. What moves you, you should be able to own that, claim that, and not feel like you have to owe an explanation. 

And I think that frame of mind for me really comes from growing up in a household with two Black parents who listened to everything under the sun. And that includes Dolly Parton, that includes Yanni, Enya, that includes the Allman Brothers, Prince, John Coltrane, Jean-Luc Ponty, who's, like, a jazz fiddler. So what I learned from my parents, and I think was one of the most fundamentally important lessons that I think I've ever learned in life, is that you can allow your mind that curiosity to explore what you want to explore and what you look like doesn't have to determine what you're supposed to be doing, if that makes sense.

So, that's something to me that I want to continue to speak as a message. And I think that the history of Black Appalachia and Black artists contributions to bluegrass and country music, it opened my eyes to the fact that, on one hand, I have to explain to people, “Well, how did you get into this music?” And to me, when I have to explain that, I inadvertently always explain that learning about the history played a role in me, you know, understanding that. 

So, for a little while, I kind of grappled with, do I need history to prove that my ancestry also participated in this music in order for me to then have permission to play it? Or am I simply going to see this as, hey, this is the truth. And this actually just reiterates that this music belongs to anybody who wants to listen to it or play it. And I've kind of decided to go with the latter because I felt like, you know, should I have to explain an ancestral connection in order to like it, you know? Because we had exchange students from Japan for a little while that were playing bluegrass, and, you know, they have the right to own and play that music just the way any other human being does. So yeah, I think just by me doing what I'm doing, other people will see me that maybe didn't think they could do something, and it can spark an idea, you know? So, yeah. 

Bill Turner
So you're saying, you've been doing this all along. The check box that somebody might want to put you in is not important, so to speak. And I think that's what we've been talking about all along with Sepia Tones—that these people who preceded Amythyst and the other Black artists who do what Black artists aren't thought to do much of—it seems to flow quite naturally from the history itself. 

Jack Tottle
Well, in bluegrass itself, there are rhythms that the banjo plays that are definitely connected to African drum rhythms. A lot of the banjo music has these “Africanisms” in it, but they rounded them out so they would work in 4/4 time. That song "The Bluegrass Sound" talks about Bill Monroe, the father of bluegrass. Here's a guy who grew up in rural Kentucky in the 1930s—20s and 30s. And he had two major influences. One was his uncle who played the fiddle, Uncle Pen. And one was Arnold Schultz, an African American itinerant musician who played both the fiddle and the guitar. 

And Bill talks about Arnold Schultz—he said he played some of the best runs, backing up a fiddle tune when he was playing the guitar that no one today could do. He says, “I tried to remember some of it so I could put it in my music, but it's not really the same as he did.” That's really talking about the shoulders that Bill Monroe stood on.

This is a recording of "The Bluegrass Sound" that I did in 1995, released in 2000, and some of the best bluegrass musicians alive at the time played on it. Tony Rice played guitar. Stewart Duncan played fiddle. Mark Schatz played bass. Jerry Douglas played dobro. Allison Krause's banjo player played the banjo on it.

So I thought it was an exceptional recording because I think it indicates a lot about the deep influence that Black music has had on bluegrass. And I think there's a book’s worth of material that could be compiled on that, which I would love to be able to do. 

[Picking, fiddling, strumming and singing / "The Bluegrass Sound" by Jack Tottle, from the collaborative album The Bluegrass Sound and Other Stories]

Bill Turner
All right.

Ted Olson
Jack, your song here, it does sound like, from your perspective, that music can play a powerful role in changing minds and changing attitudes and getting people to see things as they really were and are. We all appreciate your work as an educator and bringing to bear historical truths behind our culture as expressed through our music. 

I do have a follow up question about your mural that is in Sherrod Library, Jack. I remember when that was posted. And I thought that was a great testament to African American influences in Appalachian music. And would you mind to talk about some of the figures that are represented on the mural and what they mean to you and what they mean to Appalachian culture and music?

Jack Tottle
Sure. So this is about 13 feet high, 10 wide. And you asked who's in it. Just to briefly hint at it, people who live in the East Tennessee–Southwest Virginia area are quite familiar with the AP Carter family who recorded hundreds of records, lots of music that was either pop music that probably would have faded into obscurity or folk music and some things that they wrote themselves.

And they were one of the people who were recorded first in 1927 at Bristol, Tennessee–Virginia's famous recording session. The “Big Bang of Country Music” it was called because the Carter family were there, and also Jimmy Rogers, who's later been called the Father of Country Music.

So these were two early superstars. The Carter family had a guy named Leslie Riddle, a friend who was an African American singer and blues guitarist. He went around with AP Carter, the patriarch of the family, and helped AP hunt up songs that AP would write the words down when he went to little villages and towns and farms and found these songs. He'd write down the words and Leslie Raddle would memorize the tune so he could teach it to the other members of the family. So he played a very important role in the Carter family's music. It wouldn't have been the same without Leslie Riddle's input. 

Jimmy Rogers was from Mississippi, but he happened to be in the region near Bristol when the first auditions were held for this historic recording session. And later on, Jimmy Rogers collaborated with Louis Armstrong, one of the great trumpet innovators, as well as entertainers. So the two of them had this relationship so that was great. 

Bob Wills, the king of Western Swing, had a singing idol, Bessie Smith, the great African American blues artist who probably saved Columbia Records label from going under during the Depression because she was selling so many records that, even when people had very little money, they still, would buy her records. He rode 40 miles on horseback to hear Bessie Smith play when he was a young man. 

Bill Turner
Wasn't Bessie Smith from Chattanooga?

Jack Tottle
I wouldn't doubt it. Is that right? 

Bill Turner
Yeah.

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah. There's—yeah, she's from Chattanooga, Tennessee. There's a—I can't remember if it's a museum or a venue—now I can't remember. But there was a place called Bessie Smith Hall, in downtown Chattanooga. I'm assuming it's still there, but that was in honor of Bessie Smith, so… 

Jack Tottle
Yeah.

Bill Turner
Let me tell you, Bessie Smith did a great piece called “Black Mountain Blues,” and there's a town in my home county in Harlan County, Kentucky, and it's a little town called Black Mountain. So I commend you to, to Google Bessie Smith doing "Black Mountain Blues." She did it in 1933.

Amythyst Kiah
Oh wow. Okay. Yeah, I'll check out. 

Jack Tottle
She was such a beautiful—technically beautiful—singer, but just grabs your emotions, man. No wonder Bob Wills was going to ride 40 miles to hear her. 

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah. Yeah. 

Jack Tottle
And actually when Bob Wills, again, he's the king of Western swing. The first two tunes he wanted to record when he first got a chance to do a commercial recording was Bessie Smith's "Downhearted Blues" and one other Bessie Smith tune. Those were the first two that came to his mind that he wanted to record. So again, here's the Black and the white musicians admiring one another and playing together. 

We have pictures of Bill Monroe and Arnold Schultz. We have pictures of Earl Scruggs, the great banjo innovator, who also, without his music, you really wouldn't have anything that sounds like bluegrass today.

And you have an earlier recording from the twenties of a gentleman named Uncle John Scruggs and he's African American. So you would think either there was a Scruggs fellow who owned slaves and since they gave enslaved people the names of the owners a lot of times, or it could have just been a coincidence that they had the same name, but they both played the banjo.

Well, the reactions to this mural have, been quite remarkable in that it sort of serves as a Rorschach Test for what people want to believe or think about presentations that show connections with African American music and country and bluegrass music. 

So with this mural that shows the Black and white folks together, counterposed with one another where there's something in common that they have, one fellow that I knew for a long time came up to the mural and he said, "Oh, this is your bluegrass mural, huh? Well, where's the Stanley brothers? Where's Jimmy Martin? Where's the Osborn brothers?" I said, "No, this shows Bill Monroe and Earl Scruggs representing bluegrass, but it also shows the African American musicians that had an effect on bluegrass and country music. But this was a guy who, it was just astounding to him, obviously disturbing. And obviously he had no curiosity to find out, “Well, how could you say that? I always thought this was white people's music.” And I think this is typical of a lot of people who have considered it that way and who are not open to learning more about the reality of American culture in American music.

I had another reaction from the opposite side with a comment that I saw online about Uncle John Scruggs, and they mentioned the mural and they mentioned some facts about Uncle John Scruggs’ life. And there's not that much known about him, but they said, "Well, Uncle John Scruggs probably got to select the song he would do, but obviously he didn't have any agency about this. This was all put up by the white, people. And the commentary”—this is something I had written—"the commentary was quite anodyne.” And I didn't quite know what that meant until I thought about it, and I thought, again, trying to read between the lines, perhaps he thought that I should have spent a great deal of time talking about the injustices of the racial situation back in the 1920s through today. 

So you can make what you want out of any of our efforts to try to bridge gaps. And we won't be successful all the time. But that doesn't mean as Amythyst has said, it doesn't mean to stop doing it. 

I am just so glad that Amythyst went on the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville, and she sang "I'm Black myself" to those folks. And if you ever read the words to it or listen carefully to the words, that's pulling no punches. And I just admired Amythyst so much for writing the song, for recording it, but then for doing it at the Grand Old Opry, where she got a great reception. So, progress is possible. It's just a little bit at a time. But I'm so proud of Amythyst for being part of that fight that is going to have to continue. 

Amythyst Kiah
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that was a really big moment. And, in fact, they've had three other Black artists make their debut this month, so I know that they're committed to continuing to include all the walks of life that can and do makeup country music and Americana, bluegrass, all of that. So it was a really big moment to be able to grace the stage. And if anybody in that room at all for some reason didn't like it, I wouldn't have been able to pick them out because the overwhelming response was just great. The house band was amazing too. Yeah, everybody was really great and warm and welcoming and, yeah, would love to play there again.

Jack Tottle
Absolutely. The band was so good, and I would highly recommend going online to hear that particular performance because this wasn't your regular band. This was—was that just session musicians or were these people you had picked up? 

Amythyst Kiah
They're the house band. So that band plays on the Opry in the event that the artist wants to do that. And I'm glad I did because it was great.

Jack Tottle
Did you rehearse with them much beforehand? 

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah, so they got the song to listen to and to, you know, prepare for. And honestly, the day of, I came in for the sound check, which also doubled as rehearsal. And we played through it once, and I almost forgot the words because I couldn't believe how great they sounded. Like. it was offered, you know, background vocals—everybody's willing to do anything. And then it turned out everybody in the band wanted to play on it. So, it was a pretty big band. And, the fact that also, all of the background singers were white. And the fact that this is a story that, even though, yes, it's not specifically about your experience, but this is a human story. And I think all of us on some level can relate to feeling alienated, feeling unloved or unwanted. I think everybody—those are all, those are common human emotions. 

Someone gave a really good analogy and I can't remember who it was now that I was talking to. But it's like that song "Coal Miner's Daughter" from Loretta Lynn. Amazing song. I've sung the song. I am not a coal miner's daughter. I did not grow up in coal country. I did not grow up in a holler. That is not my experience. But the story is—it's a beautiful story. And she's got a beautiful voice, and the music was great. 

So that's an analogy that I kind of give to people now when they ask me about it. Not to continue to create a divide where we are identifying each other on our differences, but this was a way for people to reclaim their identity after years of being told by society that you’re less than. You're a second-class citizen. You're subhuman. Of course a response is going to be to try to reclaim that which is treated as a curse and to transcend that and to be seen as a human.

But for every person that doesn't get it, there's plenty people that do. And you have to do what you can mentally to make sure that you don't allow that to control what you do. You know? So… 

Bill Turner
In getting my spirit together for this conversation, I listened to Songs of Our Native Daughters, which I understand was a play off of James Baldwin's Notes of a Native Son. Fascinating music by the way.

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah, well, thank you. I think with that record, Rhiannon Giddens came up with the concept and introduced it to myself and Layla McCalla and Allison Russell. And when she sent the email explaining, you know, what the vision was and the idea was… Well, for one, it's Rhiannon Giddens, you know, and the Carolina Chocolate Drops played a huge, pivotal role in me wanting to pursue and study old time music. And prior to that, I also opened for some of her solo shows. So to be asked now to actually work alongside her on something that's, you know, pretty, like, monumental. It was an honor to be asked to do that and to be part of such a fascinating concept-- four Black women who all play banjo, effectively celebrating the banjo as a West African instrument and influence in American music. 

Also, redefining or reimagining what Blackness is and what Blackness can be by playing music that has been identified as white music in the commercial music industry since its inception. So there was so much symbolism and layers there of, like, what this project represented to its fullest extent. 

So, I think that a lot of lack of understanding between Black and white people really comes from not fully understanding how the transatlantic slave trade affected our relationship. I think there are some people that are, like, “Well, that happened in the past. That's over now. Everything's better now.” And the thing is, there have absolutely been incredible strides as far as having the freedoms that we have now. But being part of this project and using music to look at this past and look at the tragedy of it, but then also look at the resilience of Black people that endured. For me to be able to have the opportunities I have now, I'm standing on a lot of shoulders. And really that record for me more than anything was an homage to the people before me that have allowed me to be in the position I'm in now.

It's important from a social justice standpoint, but it's also important from a personal and spiritual standpoint too, you know. I found out a lot about myself and what I'm made of and what I'm capable doing with that project. So, yeah, it means the world when people can listen to it and feel what we were putting into it. So it means a lot. 

Ted Olson
Amythyst, I wanted to mention that we are using your wonderful recording of “John Henry” from Big Bend Killing that you did as kind of a theme song for Sepia Tones. You may know that, but if you don't, thank you. 

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah, no, I'm honored. I really appreciate you a llwanting to use that. I mean, I had a great time with that in that recording session, and that was an experience, and I'm glad that that experience is now going to be shared on this show. So, I really appreciate that.

Ted Olson
Well, absolutely. And of course, we'd be remiss if we didn't offer you the opportunity to perform a version of "Black Myself" live for us here. It's completely up to you. Not to put you under any kind of pressure, but...

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah, no, it's totally fine. I actually have—I've got a guitar tuned up over here. I assumed "Black Myself" was going to be the song I end up playing, so I tried to tune it up for that.

All right.

[Guitar strumming and singing / "Black Myself" by Amythyst Kiah]

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah…

Ted Olson
Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Amythyst Kiah
Of course!

Ted Olson
Let's, close out today, I guess, with giving you both an opportunity to provide one more reflection or to conclude with any unresolved thoughts or additional thoughts. 

Jack Tottle
To me, I was just glad to get a little sense of Bill Turner and his work. I'm so glad that he was part of the program. And the work that you and he did to get the whole program together, so you definitely deserve kudos for that.

And of course, overall, more respect and enjoyment for Amythyst’s music than ever. I just, I don't wanna go overboard with this, but there aren't that many singers today who can bridge that gap between authentic appreciation for old-time and traditional Appalachian music and the more modern sounds that Amythyst is getting from her touring group. And I'm not even sure, what category you put your music in, Amythyst. Maybe you don't have to make a category for it. But when I'm trying to explain it to people, I have to say, “Well, it's got electric music and it's pretty intense,” but I don't know what to call it. 

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you go to Spotify, it's been like, I've had songs that have featured on the Americana playlists on folk playlists, country playlists, blues, indie rock, alternative rock. Same thing with Pandora. So I call it Americana or Roots Rock, as the short version. But, there’s so many different American music influences in my music. And, you know, I tell people it's a little bit of blues, it's a little bit of country, it's a little bit of folk. I kind of just tell 'em it's a little bit of everything. I think musically, as a person that is—obviously I'm Black, I live in Appalachia. I live in in Johnson City, Tennessee. I studied the music and performed it. All of that is always going to be the foundation of coming into my own and my own identity as a musician. And all of those things that I learned, playing with the Old Time Pride Band and, you know, lessons I took from you and Ed Snodderly and Roy Andrade—all of those things together played a huge fundamental role in me finding my voice. And performing, being on the road, seeing what it's like being in the studio—all of those things played such a huge role for me. And those are things that I take with me moving forward. 

And, I'm just going keep taking those tools and just keep growing and learning and exploring, you know. That's what art is about. It's about being able to explore yourself and to be able to communicate with others in a new and different way, you know? So…

Thank you all for everything you all do at ETSU. I can't stress enough how important that program was to me. It just means a lot. So I appreciate everything y'all do and have done.

Ted Olson
Amythyst, thank you so much. Jack, thank you so much. It’s wonderful to spend this time with both of you and to hear your stories, hear you talk to each other, and to learn from you both about music and about culture. Thanks so much for joining us for Sepia Tones.

Amythyst Kiah
Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

[Guitar and banjo music and singing / "John Henry" by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from Big Bend Killing.]

Karen Key
Thank you to our guest hosts Dr. William Turner and Dr. Ted Olson.

Dr. William Turner is a long-time African American studies scholar and retired Distinguished Professor of Appalachian Studies and Regional Ambassador from Berea College. He was also a research assistant to Roots author Alex Haley and co-editor of the groundbreaking Blacks in Appalachia. In 2021, Turner received Western Carolina University's individual Mountain Heritage Award in recognition of his outstanding contributions to Southern Appalachian studies. His memoir called The Harlan Renaissance, available from West Virginia University Press, was awarded the prestigious Weatherford Award at the 2022 Appalachian Studies Association Conference.

Dr. Ted Olson is a music historian and professor of Appalachian Studies at East Tennessee State University. He is the author of many books, articles, reviews, encyclopedia entries, and oral histories. Olson has produced and compiled a number of documentary albums of traditional Appalachian music including GSMA’s own On Top of Old Smoky and Big Bend Killing. His work has received a number of awards, including seven Grammy nominations. The East Tennessee Historical Society honored Olson with its Ramsey Award for Lifetime Achievement in 2021.

[Guitar and banjo music and singing / "Goin’ Down this Road Feelin' Bad" by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from On Top of Old Smoky: New Old-Time Smoky Mountain Music]

Valerie Polk
Special thanks also to guests Amythyst Kiah and Jack Tottle. 

Amythyst Kiah is a Grammy-nominated musician and songwriter whose work is redefining genre boundaries. She has won critical acclaim for her collaboration as a member of the group Our Native Daughters and for her most recent album, Wary + Strange, which melds roots traditions with alternative rock in songs of personal revelation. 

Jack Tottle is a multi-instrumentalist, recording artist, songwriter, author, and educator whose career has allowed him to share the stage with some of America’s most revered bluegrass artists. He founded the first comprehensive bluegrass music studies program at a four-year university at East Tennessee State, a program that celebrates its 40th anniversary this year.

Music featured in this episode includes: 

"John Henry" and “Pretty Polly” both performed by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from GSMA’s album Big Bend Killing;

“The Bluegrass Sound” by Jack Tottle, from a collaborative album he produced called The Bluegrass Sound and Other Stories; 

“Black Myself” performed live by Amythyst Kiah for our podcast. Recordings of that song are available on the album Songs of Our Native Daughters and on Wary + Strange;

And “Goin’ Down this Road Feelin’ Bad” performed by Amythyst Kiah and Roy Andrade from GSMA’s album On Top of Old Smoky: New Old-Time Smoky Mountain Music.

[Old-time guitar music from Old-Time Smoky Mountain Music and bird song]

Karen Key
Our theme music is from Old-Time Smoky Mountain Music, GSMA’s Grammy-nominated music collection. Bird recordings by Mark Dunaway.

Thanks for listening!

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Great Smoky Mountains Association is an educational, non-profit partner of the National Park Service. We support the perpetual preservation of Great Smoky Mountains National Park by promoting greater public interest and appreciation through education, interpretation, and research. Learn more about our work and the benefits of membership by visiting our website at SmokiesInformation.org.