How much do you really know about domestic violence and intimate partner abuse? This enlightening conversation with Dr. Catherine Jackson is guaranteed to change your perspective. In honor of Domestic Violence Awareness Month, we confront the harsh realities of abuse, debunk the stigma, and highlight the shocking statistics, particularly among young individuals. We underscore the urgency to dismantle the shame attached to such issues to ensure they are no longer swept under the rug.
Our dialogue takes you beyond the physical aspect of abuse. We illuminate the less acknowledged forms of abuse - financial and emotional. We delve into the unique challenges of same-sex relationships and the impact of verbal abuse on an individual's psychology. The topic of rushed marriages within religious establishments, specifically churches, is broached, making the connection between the institution's high regard for marriage and the high prevalence of domestic violence among young adults.
But it's not all grim. We provide hope through trauma-informed approaches, brain science, and a holistic lens towards recovery. You'll learn about cutting-edge therapies like EMDR, neural therapy, and brain spotting that can rewire an individual's mindset and behavior and instigate a fresh start. We emphasize the power of active listening and giving practical advice without attempting to control the situation. Our goal is to equip you with vital knowledge and tools to recognize, address, and prevent domestic violence and intimate partner abuse. Let's reshape the narrative together.
You ARE:
SEEN KNOWN HEARD LOVED VALUED
How much do you really know about domestic violence and intimate partner abuse? This enlightening conversation with Dr. Catherine Jackson is guaranteed to change your perspective. In honor of Domestic Violence Awareness Month, we confront the harsh realities of abuse, debunk the stigma, and highlight the shocking statistics, particularly among young individuals. We underscore the urgency to dismantle the shame attached to such issues to ensure they are no longer swept under the rug.
Our dialogue takes you beyond the physical aspect of abuse. We illuminate the less acknowledged forms of abuse - financial and emotional. We delve into the unique challenges of same-sex relationships and the impact of verbal abuse on an individual's psychology. The topic of rushed marriages within religious establishments, specifically churches, is broached, making the connection between the institution's high regard for marriage and the high prevalence of domestic violence among young adults.
But it's not all grim. We provide hope through trauma-informed approaches, brain science, and a holistic lens towards recovery. You'll learn about cutting-edge therapies like EMDR, neural therapy, and brain spotting that can rewire an individual's mindset and behavior and instigate a fresh start. We emphasize the power of active listening and giving practical advice without attempting to control the situation. Our goal is to equip you with vital knowledge and tools to recognize, address, and prevent domestic violence and intimate partner abuse. Let's reshape the narrative together.
You ARE:
SEEN KNOWN HEARD LOVED VALUED
There's so many different types of domestic violence it's not just the physical, and I think that's the one that we often focus on.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody and welcome back to the Wednesdays with Watson Podcasts. And, for those of you new, welcome to the Wednesdays with Watson Podcast. It is October of 2023 and we are highlighting domestic violence awareness month. As you see, I have my empowered purple shirt on if you are watching on YouTube, and I am excited to talk about this topic for the third or fourth year in a row. Every October, I've talked about it because I am, as many of you know, a survivor of domestic violence, but today it is not just me. Today I have Dr Katherine Jackson with me. I love Dr Jay, dr Jay in the house. Hey, dr Jay, welcome, thank you and I love you too.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me back.
Speaker 2:Well, you were, we loved it when you were on before. And I say Dr Jay is in the house and people look for Julius Irving and he's not here. They're real Dr Jay's in there. Only those of you of a certain age, and maybe even Dr Jackson doesn't even know that.
Speaker 2:Oh bless you, I do. But, guys, we are going to have a powerful conversation about domestic violence and how it's different from intimate partner abuse. But, more importantly, we're going to talk about how you, as a human being, if you are not the one in four women who have been abused in intimate relationship, if you are not one in seven, or if you are and you're on the side of healing, we're going to talk about how your response would be most helpful to those who are being abused in every way in their homes. And so Dr Jackson's going to bring her expertise here. As many of you know, I am about three-fourths of the way into my own doctorate degree, and so these interviews get a little bit more exciting because I'm a little bit more knowledgeable. But Dr Jackson is a well-known guy. She's a psychologist, she is an international author, she takes a holistic approach in her practice and she'll talk to us about that a little bit at the end. She has been featured in Forbes magazine, she has been featured in Oprah and, more than anything, she loves Jesus. And she's here to talk to us today about trauma and, more specifically, domestic violence and intimate partner abuse.
Speaker 2:And so, dr Jay, let's just get right into this, and so I wanted to make sure. So I'll bounce some of the things I learned off of you while we talk to the listeners. But so, of course, we've often referred to violence in the home as domestic violence, and it is domestic violence, but in about the last decade we've begun to call it intimate partner abuse. So am I right, dr Jay? There's a there. In my opinion, there's two differences between those two things, because there is still domestic violence, right? So domestic violence involves children, and then intimate partner abuse would be any relationship that is spousal in nature, both homosexual, homosexual, heterosexual, married and non.
Speaker 1:A slightly different thing. I guess domestic violence could be that that includes children, but I thought it was more like from within the home. Within the home, yeah, within the home, and oftentimes there are kids involved and where the intimate partner abuse. Maybe you guys don't live together but you're still going, you're still encountering the abuse. And it can be other types of intimate relationships too, because I don't think people think about sometimes the abuse, but this could be also fall under domestic abuse, where maybe it is a sibling and some abuse with another sibling or some other form. That's a close relationship too.
Speaker 2:So I had not thought of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was my understanding, but I believe yours encompasses it too, and they're both very, very broad and there is in the home and one could be. You may not even be in the home per se.
Speaker 2:I had not thought about that yet because I work domestic, meaning home, I think. In 2020, a study by an author, lisa Lever's, indicated that 10% of children in the United States will experience at least one. They will witness at least one violent event in their home and then, by the time they've reached 18, about 25% of them will have experienced it.
Speaker 1:I was wondering. When you said 10%, I said I wonder how, like how long ago his research was, because I felt like the number were higher.
Speaker 2:And I think they're even higher than that. Right, there's so much of it because there's so much shame involved and we can talk about that, but there's so much shame involved. But I do think, for the listeners, that the main thing that I want you to understand is that we may use intimate partner violence and domestic abuse interchangeably and, to Dr Jackson's point, it doesn't necessarily need to be inside the four walls of your home. Domestic violence could be between siblings, but the thing that we're because we're going to be talking about faith and the church that I want to make sure that everyone understands about intimate partner violence and why we're going to use that term is because it involves, like you said, all intimate relationships, including homosexual relationships, including people who aren't married. I wrote a paper on this which I will link in the show notes for those of you interested in reading it, but I was absolutely stunned at the statistics for intimate partner violence within relationships among those like 15 to 19 years old.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I don't think they realize it either, and it's kind of like for many people that's your first time like dating and knowing what to look for and what you don't want, and it kind of grooms you towards more of that. In fact, I remember in high school a young lady that I went to school with said that if he doesn't hit her, she doesn't feel like he loves her, and I was like, oh, and even then I was a teenager too and I knew that wasn't like. That was like hmm, wasn't right. Yes.
Speaker 2:And I think what made me so upset about that I would you know I have such an empathetic heart was like these are teenagers and this is setting the foundation and if they're part of that 25 percent that have probably witnessed it in their home. Like you said, that young lady said I don't feel like he loves me if he's not hitting me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that it just it blows my mind. And so listeners, parents out there I doubt we have anybody in this age group listening to my podcast. We might but parents out there understand that the highest incidence rate in this country for intimate partner violence are aged 15 to 19. The second highest are aged 19 to 25.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, I didn't know the teen 15 to 19 was the highest. I feel like yes, and so I went through the domestic violence training that they. It was 40 hours time that I did it and now I believe it's 60 hour training, and I spent over 10 years volunteering in a domestic violence center, and so I feel like a lot of the numbers have changed for the worse since I was trained.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that might be, and I'd be interested in your take on this. Is that we, that we that some of the stigma and shame are being taken away from it is actually being reported now, yes, which is a good thing.
Speaker 1:Which is a good thing.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of times people come to me and this is why I wanted somebody who actually does have a doctorate degree to come in and help us, because I some, a teenage girl will say to me, or a college college girl will say to me, well, well, he didn't hit me like your husband hit me, or she didn't hit me like, like you know, there was no physical abuse. They just yell that me or they just X. And so I would love it if you would describe to the, to the listeners and you're. In your mind and your professional opinion, you are here for entertainment and educational purposes only. But in your mind, what constitutes abuse inside these relationships?
Speaker 1:There's so many different types of domestic violence. It's not just the physical, and I think that's the one that we often focus on, but it's the words and how people speak to you, so which can cause the emotional, domestic domestic abuse. There's financial, there's the physical, which is one of the ones that's the biggest, and then there's so many other types of domestic abuse. And so if he doesn't hit, like you in your, in your example, if he doesn't hit, but he could still be using these kind of words that really make her feel bad, really plays on herself esteem, and then she doesn't have the words or the resources, or the internal you know, I guess, resources for for lack of another word but to get out of it and she thinks that this is love, especially if she falls in that 25% who's seen this kind of behavior and saw other people accepting it, and I want to note this too, because I was gonna say and she saw this happen to her mother but there there is abuse that goes the other way as well.
Speaker 1:There are guys who endure quite a bit. I know some personally who and I and I say to myself, why does he continue to take this kind of treatment from from her, and so it can be both ways. And there's a man and who? You know, some men who grew up as boys and teens who take way more from women than they do, some women who are toxic and grew up in some and some not so great homes, and then they kind of put that on their male relationship.
Speaker 2:So and then, of course, when you talk about the LGBTQ relationships, then we got same, you know, same, sex violence, of the same and I wonder if, on the same sex violence, particularly among gay men, if it's like it, if it's, if it's up a notch you know what I'm saying like if it's not not your, your typical, I don't know, because there's so much testosterone involved on when it's the same sex, gay, I wonder if it's and I did not take the time to do this research but if, but, if that violence is more violent. You know, are we seeing? Are we seeing heavier things?
Speaker 1:that would be, that would be fascinating and I would love the research on it too, but from what I understand and what I've known so far, I would. It's not. It's not more violent, because in most relationships there's one person who's more the aggressor and one who's more maybe docile, or more like quiet, or you know not as and so whether it is male, female, female, female, male, male. The dynamics are usually that way, and when you think of abusers, they're choosing people who are not going to be as aggressive for that, for that very reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's that's sad, because there are those of us that get chosen. Yeah, because you know we were of a certain personality type or something like that. But yeah, abusers choose and, and you said, you said something that I think is important for those out there listening who are either in domestic violence relationships, intimate partner violence relationships or love somebody who is, I think we've well established, and it's not just physical abuse. I tell people all the time that when I look back on on my 12 year of domestic violence marriage, I would have taken the punches and the hits every day of the week, because the other types of abuse were substantially more psychologically damaging to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I think they?
Speaker 1:I think they because and we've all seen them right the different types of things that float around on the internet with domestic violence or domestic abuse, where it says the scars heal, but the internal things, all that stuff that it does to the mind, it takes so much longer to undo it. And so I like I could see why you would say that, because you could heal those scars, you could be back in society and everything seems typical and nobody knows the wiser. But you're still left with all the other stuff. When you think about, like if it was financial abuse or social abuse or emotional abuse or any of those other forms of abuse, they play a lot more on the mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot harder, like you said to your point, to get to gain victory over, and it has been by far, Dr J. There'll be stuff that happens even now, and I will remember a phrase or a word that he said that just kind of cut me very deeply, and so I always picture my avatar or my listener particularly my domestic violence survivors in a dark room, probably hiding, listening to these episodes from their abuser. And one of the things that I wanna mention that is quite vulnerable on my part, but I feel led to mention this as a part of abuse. Financial abuse is a real one for sure, and we're gonna talk about that in a minute when we talk about why people stay. But one that not a lot of people talk about and that I was an oft victim of was sexual abuse inside a marriage. Yeah, marital rape. People in the church will say well, that's a thing you're married, didn't? Weren't those vows that you said give him permission? Wasn't that consent forever and ever? Amen.
Speaker 1:And so, unfortunately, you still have the right to say no, even within a marriage, if you don't feel like it. If you're tired heck, if you're upset, you shouldn't be forced to then have sex with somebody that you're not in a good place with, marriage or no marriage.
Speaker 2:Right, and that one's one that not a lot of people talk about because it again it brings shame.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And as domestic abuse in general brings shame, everyone thinks it's their fault, to your point that the young lady in high school said I only know he loves me when he hits me. And I think about that faulty logic when we were being raped Like I spank you because I love you and I'm not here to have that conversation.
Speaker 2:But that's a whole other podcast Right, exactly a whole other podcast, but it's significant to think about all the different types of abuse because, most people just think that if they don't leave a mark, they don't break a bone, they don't make you bleed to that it is not abuse and it is emotional, it is verbal, it is financial, it is you mentioned social. Social digital yeah digital all my cyber all of it. I mean, there are so many like if.
Speaker 1:Elder abuse. All of it falls under here.
Speaker 2:And one of their big ploys is isolation. And so then you're not, and so if you're under the sound of our voice, I hope that you will give yourself the grace to go. Huh, maybe I need to talk to somebody because maybe this is abuse and maybe this isn't good for me to be in it.
Speaker 1:And so, amy, I wanna say for you that I truly appreciate your vulnerability and, if God let you to say you know, share that. I think it's gonna help a lot of people. And then one thing I tell people that I work with is that if they're not altogether sure, and especially like what? If I've been working with somebody in therapy for a while and I might be more biased, so I might think it is I encourage them to go to a domestic violence center where they offer DV, counseling and to see and they can help them sort it out, to see if it is in fact some form of one of these many types of abuse, even spiritual abuse.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna throw that into the comments. We're talking about faith too, and there's spiritual abuse as well 1000%, and those people need a safe place to go, which kind of is a beautiful segue into my next question. But I did but to back up just for a second. I did feel led to say that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know you don't speak in this guy, yeah yeah, I felt very led to say that because I feel like there's somebody out there that is in a situation where they're perhaps being forced to have sex in a violent relationship and you need to know that's not okay.
Speaker 1:And if anybody watched the Tina Turner movie, it's old now. The Ike Turner To the basket. I mean, there was a scene in there where it was, she didn't, and he forced himself on her, I think, to take her down a peg because she was rising and doing really well in her career. And yeah, and those are like. That's one depiction of what's happening to people in real life.
Speaker 2:In real life and the homes on your street right, and I think you brought up a really good point about sometimes. They become more violent as the other person becomes more successful, Like if they feel like they're going to get left in the dust at all or in the shadows or whatever, or the isolation game is not winning, then it escalates.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great movie, by the way, but I remember that scene. But I wanted people out there to know and at my heart it's just racing that. I just remember that portion of it and I remember how confused I was because I thought, well, when I married him, I became his property and so I can't say no, and that's just not accurate if you're out there listening. So, dr J, part of my story is I was in a 12 year domestic violence marriage and after about year 11, I finally told somebody and I'll tell that story in a minute. But I'm curious from your perspective. And again, you're here for just educational, entertainment purposes only. But when somebody comes to you whether you are a leader in the church or you're just a friend, or you don't barely know the person and they tell you that this is going on at their home, what is the better way to respond? I don't know if there's a best way, but there are definitely better ways.
Speaker 1:Well, if we have to say like a better way of responding is a listening era and with empathy, unfortunately, I think people are met with everything else but lots of judgment or lots of unwarranted advice, versus just hearing somebody's story.
Speaker 1:And sometimes when we share things I don't know how it was I can't wait to hear when you share part of your story, but sometimes we just want somebody to listen and to have somebody to share those things with. I think too many of us rush in with the resources or what we think they should be doing and lots and lots of judgment. And when we think of the church since we're talking about the faith parts of it too I feel like a lot of times it's mishandled within the church, whether it's your friend in the church, maybe it's your sister in Christ, or it's your brother in Christ or just somebody you kind of looked up to, or it's sometimes even when we go to our pastors or the clergy member at the church. It gets mishandled for some people, and so it takes a lot which you know, it takes a lot to trust somebody with this information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really does, and I think that for my generation I'm Gen X and we talked about this a little bit before we actually hit record I would love for you to share with the listeners. But you were saying that oftentimes we believe that these people aren't taken. I don't know if taken seriously is the right word or if it just gets swept under the rug because the church regards the institution of marriage yeah, maybe a little bit higher than they do people, yeah, or and I don't even answer what you said do people and do singleness right.
Speaker 1:So that's why I think, at least from my perspective, a lot of people have rushed to get married because in the church, marriage is the big thing, it's the creme de la creme. It's what everybody should want and aspire to, and I'm not sure all the ladies were fully prepared or even make the best decision. Sometimes when they get married and I don't know if it's the same on the other side for men, because I don't know the male perspective.
Speaker 2:That is just so true, like we were teaching our young women about sexual purity, and we should. But yeah, I think that the message, at least, at least the 30 year old message I don't know if it is as much now, but the message is get married fast so that you don't live in sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, there's no preparation right and oftentimes-.
Speaker 1:Not enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and oftentimes they're in that hopefully they're not in the 15 and 19 age range, but a lot of them are between that 19 and 25, or we're seeing the second most highest domestic violence numbers in that age range, and so I do think you're right. I think that it's a bit of a triple whammy and that the institution of marriage is so highly regarded in the church, as it should be but the Bible has very specific dispensation for like a better way to explain that that abuse is biblical recourse for divorce God does not want you to stay and that marriage just because God hates divorce and the Bible says that too, he does hate divorce, but he hates abuse, right.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so I think that I think that we focus too much on when these kids are dating, on keeping them pure, which I think we should do. But I also believe that if youth pastors can pull aside these young men and I say young men because that's my perspective, certainly, like you said, women abuse we know that one in seven men report abuse, probably way higher than that, but for me it was just men. And so I think that for me, growing up in church, and it was don't do this, don't go this far, don't go to second base, definitely only third base.
Speaker 2:And so now it's all about okay, well, let's just get married. And there's no training. There's no teaching young men how to be husbands, how to be like it says I believe it's in Ephesians that the husband should love the wife as Christ loved the church. Are we teaching our young men what that looks like?
Speaker 1:And what that really means, because if you're abusing your partner in any way, that is not how God or Christ loves. It taught us to love and that's not how he loved the church and that's not how we are to love each other, and I would say that and that's how we become the deal breaker Right and then on the opposite side, if women are the abuser.
Speaker 2:That same passage as scripture says women love your husbands, respect them, and we're not getting into that whole submit conversation, but the Bible tells us how to be good wives too, and I hope that people that are listening to this, that are in leadership and churches are going. Huh, maybe instead of talking about, you know, having a fantasy football league or something, we need to be discipling these young men about what to do with their anger and that it never should end at their fist.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or their words, or their words or any other, or their control, yeah, You're not in control of another human being ever, and so I think that the church could and maybe some do have specific training, for lack of better way explain that in youth groups for young women and young men, since the number one demographic for being abused is sitting in their youth groups. Yes, and we got to do something about it.
Speaker 1:Those are powerful and I hope people who hear this and anybody who works within the church in any way thinks of making that a part of their youth ministry, because sometimes they get it at school but it's going to be in a more secular way and it's good information. So I'm you know, I'm glad that kids are getting exposed to it in the schools. At the domestic violence where I volunteered, they had a particular advocate and she looked beautiful, like a Barbie doll and everything, so people loved her and so she went out and talked to the kids in school setting and I thought that was wonderful. But if you can get that with the faith, the scriptural part of it, I think it will be even more powerful if it's done at church.
Speaker 2:Right, and, and what better place, you know you're, you'd be able to speak to them from truth. And so here's, here's what happened for me. I was out of church for a decade and that's when I met, married, this man, and one night you know it had been 11 years, of all the things, of just about every abuse that we've mentioned here today, and I thought you know what? I need to go back to church. And I met my dad McGowan, who started the children's home that I was in, died a couple months ago, and one of the things that he told us was stay in church, stay in the word and stay in your knees. And I had gotten out of church and, and, and, and that's, and had been for a decade. But one night after, you know, he did something and he always hit me where the bruises could be hidden, and I guys, I, sneaked out of the house the next morning and went to church, and, and I did that for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:And finally, this one lady who became a very good friend of mine who unfortunately God rest her soul she passed away my breast cancer just a couple of years after all this happened. She said are you okay? That's all she said to me is are you okay? And, dr Jay, when I tell you that those were like, it was like a key unlocking this big giant secret, and I said no, because you know what they weren't doing at that time too, dr Jay, I just, I just I worked in an emergency room for a year so that I could get some behavioral health experience. But, and we ask everybody, I don't care if you come in for a splint, a splinter in your finger, do you feel safe at home? But they weren't doing that back then.
Speaker 1:Yes, I went to the gynecologist recently for, like you know, some regular female maintenance and they and as a new gynecologist and she her nurse before the doctor came in she asked me all of like, are you okay? I was like all right, but it's good that they're asking these questions and some people are even asking general mental health based questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so I. When I was working at the hospital I was like I can't tell you how many times I went to the emergency room. Had somebody asked me do you feel safe at home?
Speaker 2:I would have said he's not around here, no help, yeah. But I didn't because they didn't ask. But this lady asked. She said is everything okay? And I just looked at her and I said no. And she said anything I can pray for you about and I said, well, my home is not safe. And she said my three favorite words. And this is how I think, if somebody comes to you and says, especially in time inside the church, and tells you that they're being abused at home, she said these three words tell me more. And there's a reason why we have two ears and one mouth.
Speaker 2:And she demonstrated at that day Because all she did was listen. Now she later told me she went home and had no idea what to do Because I told her everything. I told her the gun to my head, I told her the marital rape, I told her everything Walking on the beach in St Augustine, florida, and she just listened to me. And then they prayed for me, and I say they because we were in a life group and as we felt more safe and more comfortable, I shared inside that life group and nobody said, not a single soul. Dr J Said you got to get out. Why are you there. Don't you know that you're better than that? Nobody bowed up their chest and threatened to come to my house and call the cops. They all very practically said okay, amy, we want to be here for you. We don't know what that looks like, we don't. This is, I mean, these are all very affluent people. This is Anastasia Island, st Augustine, florida. You know, beach, beach living, I'll just put it that way. So none of them had any concert. They had no idea what to do. They were just there for me. They did not judge me.
Speaker 2:And here's a. I would love your, your point on this, your, your, your opinion on this, because a lot of times, when people come to us and say we're being abused at home, the thing we want to do is control the situation. We want to get them out, often with a very good heart, but what you're doing is exactly what's being done at home as you're trying to control them. And so these people knowingly, not even knowing what they were doing, left all of the decisions in my hands. Later I found out they were taking turns driving around my house at night. One person got Tuesday. If I wasn't there on a Sunday, you better believe. I got a phone call, and so if somebody comes to you and says they're being abused, you need to in my opinion, you need to ignore every instinct that you have to protect them.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:Even if, I mean, I was telling them that he was putting a gun in my head and conventional wisdom would be like call all the cops, call somebody, get her out of there. But I, if had they done that, I never would have left. And so, time goes by, I get closer to the Lord. After having been out of church for a decade Now I'm teaching a Bible study and as I got more comfortable with those people, they said Amy, how's it going at home? And you understand that you don't have to stay because you married him right and went. No, I don't really know that.
Speaker 2:And they said God's not going to hate you if you leave that marriage. Can we help? And I said to them this is a dangerous man. This is going to have to be done very smartly, very strategically. And I have to find out a way to get some money, because he was financially abusing me and so I would take a little bit of money out of the account every week, but then I would pack my. I had so much, you know, as most women do, I had so many clothes. I didn't want him to notice, but I was slowly packing suitcases and leaving them at these churches or at these women's houses so that when I left, I had my stuff and he had no idea. The bottom line is is all they did was listen, pray, love me, and when I made the decision to leave and this is this is just a domestic violence survivor telling people out there and podcasting it has to be their decision.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That's why I want it. That's why they go back on an average seven times. Yeah, and so that approach for me, dr J, worked, because I did not feel like I was being controlled, I felt loved and I had time and the decision was mine, and so the decision stuck. And so I just wonder, from your perspective, why that worked.
Speaker 1:You had what I feel like was a perfect situation. Yeah, it was new, but you felt safe. After going to that church like several times, and then somebody finally asking are you okay? And he wasn't around. So you gave a truthful answer.
Speaker 1:And then she she just listened. She probably wanted to say different things, but she didn't know what to do or say, and she had the emotional intelligence to hold back and say I'm just going to listen to her story and allow God to speak to me on how to handle this in the future. And then having that network, that resource of with the group, and later I feel like they all just got a chance. You know they did what they could by the, you know, driving around your house, and then they they allowed space for you to develop like a full relationship and set us some people that you really didn't know that well. So I've been in and trying to tell you what to do, right and everything. You just had a great setup for how all of that worked for you.
Speaker 1:Now, I don't think most people get all of that, but you're a woman of God, so God, he had everything in line. It's not, it's no coincidence that you wandered into that church, that you, when you would break away kind of and go, and you know, leave the house and then go to church, that this is the church that you went to, and that this was the woman who asked if you were okay. And then this was the group, that was your support. All of these things lined up the way that it should.
Speaker 2:And I'm really I'm super grateful for that. But it does worry me for people that don't have that. Yeah, and those people often will go tell somebody at work. Or you know, I get a lot of messages from moms who their daughters have told them that please, mom, don't say anything, don't do anything. And so I recognize that I had had it, had it that the Lord definitely went before me. Yes, but I do think that if all of us out there in the world, whether you're in the church or not, could respond that way you know when you're at work, if you I don't care where you work If you're at work and you notice somebody is not okay or they're constantly on their phone, you know their significant other is blowing up their phone or they're upset because they're having a text fight. These are the times when you can step in and ask those questions Are you okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know what. Most people feel comfortable saying something at work because then they feel like it might be jeopardy. So there's that, the stigma of speaking up to. And then where will somebody have the space to share if they're not connected to church, like you were Right?
Speaker 2:Yes, and so you know, I've changed a little bit of the branding of the podcast to be faith and trauma, instead of just Wednesdays with Watson, with seasons, and that's why, because I can't figure out answers to questions like this that don't include God and his people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so what I would say to those of you out there living in this world who interact with people on every. I had a somebody I went to college with when I first started. The podcast reached out to me and he worked at a bank and there was a young lady there who was being abused and he said what do I do? And anyway, to make a long story short, she got out and, I think, is doing really well now, but you would be surprised that if you are the person that makes them feel safe at work, they're not going to lose their job. By the way, if you, if you're a manager of somebody that is often missing work, begin to look for flags.
Speaker 2:Is your responsibility as a human being to look for these flags? We're not. We're not asking you to be Dr Jackson, or the future be Dr, or the future Dr Watson, where we we live and breathe this stuff, but we are asking you to be a human being and pay attention. And when somebody comes to you with this news, please refrain. Please have the emotional intelligence, like Dr Jackson said, of not trying to control the situation. You're going to be worried, you're going to be scared. You have all kinds of aces in your pockets if you're really nervous that something's going on. If they text you and go oh my gosh, he's hitting me, he's come, I'm locked in. A closet call the cops do a wellness check. You have that option.
Speaker 2:Yeah those people stayed, stayed involved. What was watching the activity of my house? This was text messaging was just just a thing then. But be a human in this world, guys, and we spend a whole month paying attention to domestic violence. And really the answer is if you're human out in this world and somebody trusts you with their story, listen, ask them to tell you more, freak out away from them. Yes, you're going to freak out, you're going to be scared. It's a huge responsibility for somebody to share this news with you, this information with you. If you feel like their life is in danger, call the cops.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do not get involved Kind of segues us into this and we've been talking about it the whole time.
Speaker 1:One of the things that way, though, it brings up something else, how you talked about the kids and the youth and church, and it wouldn't be great if they had this kind of education and church. It's a bigger push for trauma informed churches, but I feel like everything needs to be trauma informed.
Speaker 1:You just talked about workplace and wouldn't be nice if more workplaces are trauma informed so that they can recognize somebody always showing up late. Maybe she looks disheveled sometimes and instead of just writing it off that she's just you know she disregards work or she doesn't care about this job and all that. To ask the words if you are okay and how they're going. We don't do enough where to, where to, about the bottom line and the productivity, and not enough about the relationship, about people as a whole who are showing up, and if we show that we care about people in the workplace, they will in turn be more productive. So I just wanted to add that about the trauma.
Speaker 2:I think that's. I think that's workplaces. Wow, you know, I think that that is huge and part of this degree that I'm getting is for that is trauma and community care, but it's implementing intervention strategies and places like organizations, yeah, like there are probably people listening to this that are their mind are blowing. They know the woman that came in with the same outfit she had on yesterday. Maybe she slept in her car. Yeah, you know. And so I love that trauma, informed workplace as, as more and more as we are focusing, yeah, the trauma, I think the church is beginning to do better. I really do.
Speaker 2:Yeah my, my friend and pastor's wife asked me the other day. She said what did that church do? And I told her the story that I just told you, because she she is in charge of women's ministries at our church and so I think knowing how to respond to this. But trauma informed workplaces. Trauma informed families.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, we just need trauma informed spaces period where we frequent or we have fun, where we work, where we worship, all of them, trauma informed schools, everything. We just need to be more trauma informed so that we are ready to be responsive to needs. Even if, even if so, if I work and I was the manager at Walmart, I can recognize it I'm not going to be able to treat it, but then have resources to send people on so they can get the care that they need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and some of those resources and I think is group therapy and and I think that that is that that could be powerful, but for the, for the, for the victim, it could be dangerous, right. So you know, and so as we talk about resources and you might be able to add some, but you'll go to many different domestic violence websites, for example, and they have a button on the website it says escape. Yes, and I think those websites have some special like it's not, it's not, it doesn't cash and the cookies and all of that kind of stuff. And so as we, as we talk about helping people and as we talk about being a trauma informed church, we talk about being trauma informed Christian, we talk about being a trauma informed employee, a trauma informed boss, a trauma informed friend. Listen, guys, one in four women, probably that. That that number is probably accurate. One in seven men I think that number is not as accurate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I want you to look around in your world, peoples and and look at it. Look at four people for women, including yourself, and one of those probably have been abused and don't think for a second that when you're at church and you're looking at four people, that that stat isn't just as real. You know, I want to as we near towards the end, because we could talk all day long. One of the things that people don't understand they well many people literally can't wrap their head around. Why does she stay so outside of the financial part? Because that's the main, one of the main reasons why I stay. Yeah, but in your opinion, psychologically, why do, why do? Why do we stay?
Speaker 1:psychologically, and even what I have learned is that the abuse has been a huge part of the community and I think that the abuse has kicked away at her psyche so much, her self esteem so much, it has taken so many pieces of her mind and then she encompasses and believes a lot of the negative messages that is being said to her that she stays.
Speaker 1:She doesn't believe that she deserves more, she doesn't feel like she has the strength to do anything better or to get out of it, and then there's so, so much stigma around it, especially like you and I have been talking about so far. We're talking about the church and how marriage is the thing that nobody wants to be the one to say my marriage is the one that's hurt, my marriage is the one that has a lot of problems, so she stays, and she'll stay much longer than she should until maybe the you know that lady who passed away that helped you somebody comes along and gives her the strength to use her voice or to share her story, and then the whole group, how they rallied around you and gave you the strength to be able to slowly get out of the situation until she can get connected with those people.
Speaker 2:And until she big stops believing the lies, yeah, and she begins to believe the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, I had, like you said, a perfect situation once. I decided to go back to church. But I don't want people out there to think that you don't have the perfect situation, because I know that there's enough good people in this world that care about you and that will help you, and all of my contact information will be listed, and Dr J's will be too. Now reach out to me and I will send you to resources, because that was, that was the gotcha moment, like when I look back and I go why am I still alive? Because that would that doctor, dr Jackson, that marriage would have turned into a murder suicide within 90 to 120 days of when I left, because the last thing was a gun to my head. And so Look, if you are, if you are in the midst of an abusive marriage, think about the people who will say tell me more and Be quiet always gonna come.
Speaker 1:This tell me more. They're gonna have other ways that they say it. So if we, if we are listening for those people who are safe and it's not always gonna be the perfect situation, because I don't want people to walk away like you don't either that it has to be all in line the way that yours was. You may get somebody here and you and it may be a minute before you get the next group. Yeah, this and that, but like it took you some time to To leave, like you first started at the church and it took some time before you actually left. It'll it'll be different people along the path, but we just have to have our eyes and our hearts open to receiving that and and getting those the right, the right people who are there to help and hear and not be another person who will control.
Speaker 2:Amen, and I would say, be the person that you would want your sister, your mom, your brother, your dad to have if they shared that information. See that person and and it's not by way of control so clearly I got help and Been in counseling all of these years. I would love, now, as we, as we near the end of the podcast, for you to tell us a little bit about your approach. I know you have and some of this will be new information to me I caught one of your lives the other day with but so you have a holistic approach to your counseling and I imagine that would be true if a survivor of domestic violence or intimate partner violence came To you.
Speaker 2:Yes, that talked to us a little bit about that about.
Speaker 1:So we're talking specifically for for domestic violence with the holistic approach instead of just broad, with we can do both.
Speaker 2:Let's let's go broad and then, and then drill it down, because I want them to know yeah, it looks a little different.
Speaker 1:Broad, the broad holistic approach. I have a brain-based and holistic Approach and so I use a lot of brain based types of Therapies to help rewire people's brains, their mindset, and then thus changing the behaviors, and so some of those things will be looking at like sleep and how they eat, looking at their Relationships and then how they think, and so when we apply it just to domestic violence with a holistic approach, it's gonna look a little bit different Because some different resources are going to be a part of it, but it's still the brain-based Practices. So things, different types of therapy. So you know, cvt is great and I hear everywhere and Like celebrity mental health professionals or advocates, always CVT, cvt, cvt and that's a great, it's a good start and I think a lot of psychiatrists they recommend CVT, so parents will come in and and they will want CVT.
Speaker 1:But there are so many other types of therapies out there and things like EMDR, even on neural neural therapy and Brain-spotting, which is another brain type of therapy.
Speaker 1:Those would be really good therapies to somebody who has gone through the trauma of domestic abuse and so if I was taking a holistic approach, I would probably use one of those so they can try to To have their brain have a different way of looking at the trauma and a different way of responding to it, instead of it kind of Internalizing and who they are, so they can move on with a fresher start and not be so held on to To everything that was done and said to them before and then, once they feel healthier, some of those other things that I talked about Would sleep, eat, movement, all those kind of things. I will put those in place at some time or maybe along the line when I feel like it's time. But that definitely wouldn't be the start of the domestic violence. It will be to work on the internal parts so that then they can start to work on that ideal self that they want for themselves and just totally disconnected from that domestic domestic violence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I love the brain science portion of that for domestic violence. You know I'm a brain science geek. I see your books in your post. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, there's some behind me too. But yeah, now just the whoo. The complicated brain and all the things that trauma does to it in terms of important neurotransmitters and when they play, and then and then don't even get me started on the body keeps a score. Yes, so you know I'm a living example of that where trauma gets stuck in the body.
Speaker 2:But it definitely brain science and and my listeners have heard me talk about EMDR a lot- yes and we know that that trauma causes brain and literal, physical brain damage, but that it can be reversed using modalities like EMDR, rapid response treatment, yes, and then, and then, and then we can bring the cognitive behavioral therapies in, because, in my opinion, when we try to just operate from the beginning, from when we're there in crisis mode with oh let's just change the way you think and that'll change the way your behavior there they're there. Their prefrontal cortex is offline, they don't, they don't, they even know what they're thinking right.
Speaker 2:And so, in order to get that, that hippocampus back in action, get the prefrontal cortex back online and get the Commented all down. Now we can, we can talk about capturing your thoughts, which is basically what cognitive behavior therapy is.
Speaker 2:So I love that, like when I first went to counseling after I got out of the hospital after a nervous breakdown after all of this. We just did traditional talk therapy at first, but then he, my doctor, went for me and for a Vietnam vet to get trained and and EMDR because we were making no progress.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just talking.
Speaker 2:You just kind of go, keep circling around things and you're not gonna know why and I was disassociated from it, which for that's a fancy term for you know spaced out, and but once EMDR came into play and and my brain began to operate and All of its functions, you know out there I used that term that the prefrontal cortex, the amygdala and the hippocampus, those are the three major things that trauma happens and that that affects when, when, when, when, when, your prefrontal cortex, which is all of your executive function, and so For those of you out there who who are living with people who are difficult to live with, there might be something going on there.
Speaker 2:Because they have no, no, no inhibition control and so they're going to act, often times not well. And so when we talk about brain science and we talk about getting the prefrontal cortex back online, we talk about getting the neurotransmitters talking, you know. You know, people with trauma have smaller hippocampal volume, which which means you can't deal with fear as effectively and so, unless a less gray matter and less gray matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm not sure that the gray matter ever comes back. I even with even with neuro Neuroscience and neuro therapy. I guess one day we'll find that out, Maybe not in my lifetime, but I have MRIs that prove both of those things that prove.
Speaker 2:I have less gray matter. That prove I have less hippocampal volume. Which hippocampus for those of you listening, and the amygdala is the fear center of. So that it does. Basically it takes the message in. If you figure like the, the hippocampus is like your computer and your amygdala I mean your. Your amygdala is like the keyboard, the hippocampus is like your computer, so your amygdala is gonna express everything out right?
Speaker 2:And that's some behaviors and stress and therapy and and and anxiety and and, often times, drug abuse, substance abuse, and so I love that you would hit it with brain science first.
Speaker 1:Yes, brain stuff because it is. And trauma, and you know trauma-informed care, it has to go first before they can put all the. They can't even imagine what life is after if the trauma is still there. And it's the main thing, right, if you're, and if you're watching this on YouTube, or both.
Speaker 2:When we talk about prefrontal cortex, you know and and for those of you to put it in perspective, the prefrontal cortex is the is the part of the brain that Bruce Willis is having as dementia and can't speak and a whole bunch of other things. Now, sometimes traumatized people lose their words and they get. They don't make any sense, but that's why, because it your brain goes into fight-or-flight I must protect myself mode and when you've been in violent situations you have to fix that and EMDR does that. My first EMDR session. What is yours?
Speaker 2:Oh, my word. Like we, we started with a domestic violence, so we didn't start with the first and worst, we started with the domestic violence first and worst trauma. I'm getting a little a little techie on this podcast now, but we started with the domestic violence part of it. And, as he was he, he did the hand pads at that time and he's a Christian psychologist and so he asked for what? What would you like to believe? Where are you, are you safe? All these kinds of things. And he's padding and I'm telling him a story, super painful story, of my domestic violence and these three words came into my mind you deserved better and.
Speaker 2:Now, every time I get a trigger from that domestic violence, a smell, a place it's October those words immediately come to my mind. You deserved better. Yes, and guys, if you're out there and domestic violence situations, you do deserve better. We have created this episode for you. We have not spoken to you a whole lot because we have created it for those that want to help you, and so I do hope that, whether you're in the church or not, the church has the ultimate hope. Right, and so if you bring the ultimate hope with some practicality and some trained Counseling of these people, you might you might Just make it so that a domestic violence survivor can be sitting behind a microphone on a Sunday afternoon. I'm talking to a psychologist helping other people.
Speaker 2:Yes it's possible. 12 years, dr J, 12 years I'm so glad you're on the other side. Thank you Jesus. Yeah, thank you Jesus, but it hasn't been without his people and hasn't been without his word, and it hasn't been without a whole bunch of brain therapy. Yes and so Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I always give the mic to my guest to end it. Party messages for either survivors or those that love them.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna say for survivors, or for those who work with them, is that we also need to meet them where they are. And so, as mental health professionals or anybody who will work with somebody who is in a domestic violence situation, we don't want to be a part of the of the abuse by trying to control the situation. So, even with my Steps and my things that I would do with a, with a patient, holistically and from a brain-based perspective, I would first Go at their pace and what they need, if they need just to come in and just share for a while, that's what we would do before we do anything else. And so I want other people to do the same. When you're working with your loved ones and or even if it is, even if it's you, give yourself some grace. And if you, if it's your loved ones who are Going through domestic violence, meet them where they are, be empathetic and give them that listening ear. Let's not rush in to be controlling.
Speaker 2:Yeah and pray a whole lot.
Speaker 1:Always pray.
Speaker 2:And get some wisdom from somebody else. I have no doubt that those women were talking to other people, like what do we do? Yeah, you know, they just had the wisdom not doing in front of me. Well, guys, we will be back here in two weeks. It's going to be November. I cannot believe it's going to be November and, if I'm in full disclosure, I have no idea what we're going to talk about. But we will be back here in two weeks.
Speaker 2:But, dr J, thank you, I love what you're doing. Your information will be put in the show notes and so, if you'd like to reach out to Dr J, she's got some great content online. She spends a lot of her time on Instagram creating good content for both brain science and holistic approaches to psychological issues, and she loves Jesus. She has a powerful voice in the black community and the black church and in black therapy, which is again a whole nother podcast, deeply loves people, deeply loves Jesus, and has spent her time here with us on a Sunday. So thank you so much, dr J.
Speaker 2:I just know that this is going to help other people, and so so, and the podcast, by speaking these words for the second time, since this is the second time you've been on the podcast over you and over. Everyone is listening, including those of you in dark rooms with earbuds who maybe just got hit or just got yelled at or just got isolated or just got no money, got money taken from you. If you're in a dark room with earbuds, I want you to hear these words, because these words are true, not the ones that your abusers are speaking to you. You are so seen, known, heard, loved and valued. We pray that you find somebody who will just say tell me more, will be quiet and listen. See you, guys in two weeks. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.