There’s never a direct path to the finish line. Don Moss started in Demo Derbies, raced Circle Track, and then found his way to Class 3 Championships. If you’ve ever wondered how to get into off-road, this is what it’s all about. It’s a great listen, be sure to tune in on your favorite podcast app.
7:50 – It’s a long ways to any parts stores in Bishop
13:28 – I think I was in college before I bought a car that I actually drove home
25:53 – we figured out how to save the cars and how to build the cars and what cars to start with
32:15 – each time you add a person, you add about 30 minutes to your departure time
44:19 – we talked about what it would take to do a 2000-mile race and came up with the ’79 Bronco
52:49 – we’ve got five of the Toyota True Grit awards for finishing all the miles of all the races in the season
56:26 – we’re never going to be able to catch anybody to hit anybody
Special thanks to 4low Magazine and Maxxis Tires for support and sponsorship of this podcast.
Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.
There’s never a direct path to the finish line. Don Moss started in Demo Derbies, raced Circle Track, and then found his way to Class 3 Championships. If you’ve ever wondered how to get into off-road, this is what it’s all about. It’s a great listen, be sure to tune in on your favorite podcast app.
7:50 – It’s a long ways to any parts stores in Bishop
13:28 – I think I was in college before I bought a car that I actually drove home
25:53 – we figured out how to save the cars and how to build the cars and what cars to start with
32:15 – each time you add a person, you add about 30 minutes to your departure time
44:19 – we talked about what it would take to do a 2000-mile race and came up with the ’79 Bronco
52:49 – we’ve got five of the Toyota True Grit awards for finishing all the miles of all the races in the season
56:26 – we’re never going to be able to catch anybody to hit anybody
Special thanks to 4low Magazine and Maxxis Tires for support and sponsorship of this podcast.
Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.
[00:00:01.160]
Welcome to Conversations with Big Rich. This is an interview style podcast. Those interviewed are all involved in the offroad industry. Being involved, like all of my guests are, is a lifestyle, not just a job. I talk to past, present, and future Legends, as well as business owners, employees, media, and land-use warriors, men and women who have found their way into this exciting and addictive lifestyle we call Offroad. We discuss their personal history, struggles, successes, and reboots. We dive into what drives them to stay active in Offroad. We all hope to shed some light on how to find a path into this world that we live and love and call Offroad.
[00:00:46.150]
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[00:01:13.000]
Have you seen 4-Low magazine yet? 4-low magazine is a high-quality, well-written, four-wheel drive-focused magazine for the enthusiast market. If you still love the idea of a printed magazine, something to save and read at any time, 4low is the magazine for you. 4low cannot be found in stores, but you can have it delivered to your home or place of business. Visit 4lowagazine. Com to order your subscription today.
[00:01:38.940] - Big Rich Klein
On today's episode of Conversations with Big Rich, we have Don Moss. I met Don around 2003 when I took over VORRA and the Valley Off Road racing Association. I know he's been racing different vehicles for a lot longer than that. Don races Class III with a full-size Bronco. I think it's still the original 1979 Bronco, but we'll find that out. He has over 50 wins in that class, in the Class III with that Bronco. Don, thank you so much for coming on board and going to spend some time talking about your life.
[00:02:20.710] - Don Moss
That sounds good. Good to be here.
[00:02:24.010] - Big Rich Klein
Yeah. I got to see you a couple of years ago at SEMA. I was already doing the podcast, and your truck was in a Bronco section outside.
[00:02:38.960] - Don Moss
That's right.
[00:02:40.140] - Big Rich Klein
You were talking to some... It looked like some people from one of the big media outlets or something at the time, and I waited until you were done. But it was good to see you, and I asked you about doing the podcast then, and you said you would. And then I finally got you on the list here and got you to say you could do it. So we're glad to have you on board. I'm going to ask you the first question that I ask everybody, and that's where were you born and raised?
[00:03:07.680] - Don Moss
I was born in Lancaster, California, and spent the first eight years... My dad ran a big alfalfa farming operation between Boron and California City. Oh, wow. And it's been... I think about 1969 or so, they shut that down, and then we moved to Bishop.
[00:03:37.780] - Big Rich Klein
Okay, in Bishop California. That's there on the east side of the Sierras. If nobody has been through there, it's a beautiful drive from Reno to Southern California down that 395. Absolutely gorgeous drive. I know you were in Sacramento for a while, I think, because that's where I met you when we were racing Vora. But we'll get to that. What was those first eight years like? Do you remember being down in Lancaster?
[00:04:15.210] - Don Moss
Oh, I do. I do. He was farming 1,200 acres of alfalfa there, so we had... Anybody who's been in the California city area, it's a wide-open desert, so I wandered all over the place around there, had a go-kart and bicycles, of course. But yeah, that got real familiar with the desert then. We had actually still have an old Jeep, a CJ2A, that my dad, we would go out in that all the time. So we were constantly in the desert exploring and stuff.
[00:05:03.520] - Big Rich Klein
So the CJ2A, those are the old military style Jeeps, which most everybody here listening to this podcast would know that, of course. You bet. But you don't, by chance, still have that in the family, do you?
[00:05:19.780] - Don Moss
We do. Yeah, we do. It's not running now, but I rebuilt the engine in it when I was 15, and then my brother got a hold of it and painted it and ran it around for quite a while. But from about the time I was 12 or so, I took that over and did a lot of exploring around the ranch here in Bishop.
[00:05:51.240] - Big Rich Klein
So is the school... You did most of your schooling then, well, from 8:00 to 18:00 high school in Bishop. What was that like?
[00:06:04.940] - Don Moss
It's a pretty small community. Actually, yeah, the grade school stuff I did actually is benton. The ranch is 25 miles out of Bishop. We actually went to grade school up until through seventh grade there in Benton. And then we changed schools and came into town in Bishop and went through high school here in Bishop. But spent a lot of time in auto shop in high school. Another friend of mine, we were the only freshman in the auto shop. It was tough because we didn't have a license yet, so it was hard to get our own cars in there to work on, but we made it work.
[00:07:01.310] - Big Rich Klein
Right. Did you take auto shop all the way through high school?
[00:07:04.830] - Don Moss
Yes. Yeah, you bet.
[00:07:07.430] - Big Rich Klein
Excellent. And that's the same time period. I was born in '58, so the time period is not too much different, where they did concentrate on shop classes and stuff. Did you take any other of the shops? Did you do metal or anything like that?
[00:07:28.620] - Don Moss
I took a welding class, but for the most part, had more experience than the teachers did at that point.
[00:07:41.310] - Big Rich Klein
I would imagine growing up on a working farm, you got to keep equipment going. Yeah. I would imagine that that fell to all of you.
[00:07:50.060] - Don Moss
Yeah, that was a constant battle. It's a long ways for many part stores or especially farm equipment stores here in Bishop. We made a lot of our own parts, and cutting and welding and fabricating was just a part of life.
[00:08:11.480] - Big Rich Klein
About how many people were in your graduating class? Do you remember?
[00:08:17.030] - Don Moss
Graduating class in high school was, I think, we had about 125.
[00:08:22.390] - Big Rich Klein
That's not.
[00:08:22.770] - Don Moss
Too bad. We were a small class, but there's about 600, It think it's still about the same size. The high school is about 600 altogether.
[00:08:34.720] - Big Rich Klein
So it's drawing from most of the county?
[00:08:38.640] - Don Moss
Yes, actually, and Mono County. Bishop's in O'Neill County. And we're the ranch is at Mono County. We still have a bishop address, but we're actually in Mono County. So that causes some confusion with we get jury notices for Inyo County. And things like that.
[00:09:02.700] - Big Rich Klein
So then you get a chance to get drawn for two different court houses. Yes. How nice is that?
[00:09:12.020] - Don Moss
Yeah.
[00:09:13.700] - Big Rich Klein
Then growing up out there, I would imagine it was a lot of work because of the farm and all the responsibilities come with that, but you had to find some recreational time. And what did you guys do when you weren't working?
[00:09:35.700] - Don Moss
We, like I said, the four-wheeling or we used a lot of Honda Trail 90s on the ranch for irrigating and things like that. So we always had those. So I was running around with those and.
[00:09:59.920] - Big Rich Klein
Fishing and hunting?
[00:10:01.850] - Don Moss
Some fishing. We had fishing on the ranch and things like that. I tended to go with the mechanical stuff more than the fishing and hunting. But that was a lot of the reason we ended up here. It was my dad had grown up coming through here, and really wanted to do a lot of the fishing and hunting. Once we got here, we were too busy to do this. If you had any time off, you went somewhere else.
[00:10:36.520] - Big Rich Klein
Yeah, because farm life starts early in the morning.
[00:10:40.490] - Don Moss
Yes.
[00:10:40.920] - Big Rich Klein
It does. You're doing your chores. You got farm chores to do before school and then after school, more than likely.
[00:10:50.460] - Don Moss
Yeah, the haystuff was mostly in the summer. So it would start before school, got out, and then out, and then run into school. It started again by the time the season was finishing up. But when we'd have the twice-a-day football practice, I'd go home and haul a few loads of hay and then go back and do the afternoon ones.
[00:11:23.070] - Big Rich Klein
During the summer? Yeah, mornings and afternoons. Okay.
[00:11:25.900] - Don Moss
Yeah.
[00:11:27.910] - Big Rich Klein
And playing football and you're talking high school, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. What position did you play?
[00:11:34.970] - Don Moss
Actually a lineman, of all things. I was considerably smaller then, but that's where I ended up. So nothing.
[00:11:45.620] - Big Rich Klein
Wrong with that. The trenches are an awesome spot. I mean, you can't do anything on offense without lineman.
[00:11:52.510] - Don Moss
Right. That's right.
[00:11:55.410] - Big Rich Klein
And any other sports did you play in high school?
[00:11:58.900] - Don Moss
I just did baseball one year, and it really didn't catch on with me. Just pretty much stuck to just the football stone.
[00:12:12.200] - Big Rich Klein
Okay. And I would imagine the first car you got to drive was that CJ2A?
[00:12:19.240] - Don Moss
Yeah, I'd driven tractors and stuff before that, but that I probably spent the most time in.
[00:12:29.290] - Big Rich Klein
And what- What was the first car that you personally had?
[00:12:34.900] - Don Moss
The first car was a 1967 Mustang.
[00:12:39.140] - Big Rich Klein
Oh, really?
[00:12:40.210] - Don Moss
Yeah. I bought that for... Well, actually, I wanted a Camaro, couldn't find one. I was getting to be 16 and starting to look for a car and couldn't find any Camaros. I ended up with a Mustang and that started all of the Ford stuff.
[00:13:06.150] - Big Rich Klein
Makes sense. You went the right direction, at least.
[00:13:08.750] - Don Moss
I don't know. Don't know about that, but it started from there.
[00:13:16.720] - Big Rich Klein
I always looked at Camaros as being dime-a-dozen. They just seemed to be everywhere. And where the Mustang still had that mystique.
[00:13:28.040] - Don Moss
So that completely went through it. I bought it from the junkyard. So it came in on a wrecker and with some extra fenders and parts and pieces and took a little bit of work to get it going. But I was in college, I think, before I bought a car that I actually drove home. All the rest of them had come in. On a rope or on a wrecker.
[00:14:04.370] - Big Rich Klein
There's nothing wrong with that. You learn the value of a vehicle.
[00:14:12.610] - Don Moss
When.
[00:14:13.110] - Big Rich Klein
You have to build it yourself and maintain it and not just get handed the keys and say, Congratulations, you're 16. Here's a car you get to drive. And it's got a sticker in the window. That's not the way I grew up. I grew up more like you. My first car was a $300 Volkswagen.
[00:14:35.150] - Don Moss
Okay.
[00:14:35.840] - Big Rich Klein
It ran, but it was a 1954. So 20 years, almost 30 years later, when I started driving it, it needed work, you might say. So that was my car to build before I got to drive.
[00:14:52.970] - Don Moss
Okay.
[00:14:54.570] - Big Rich Klein
So then high school, did you do any other activities besides play football? Band or- No.
[00:15:06.860] - Don Moss
-drama. No, no band. No, didn't do any of that.
[00:15:11.710] - Big Rich Klein
No South Pacific, huh?
[00:15:13.910] - Don Moss
No. No, I did the before high school, Spelling Bee stuff. But by the time I got to high school, they couldn't talk me into it anymore.
[00:15:29.770] - Big Rich Klein
You didn't have to wear a bow tie when you did the Spelling Bee.
[00:15:32.220] - Don Moss
Did you? No.
[00:15:37.810] - Big Rich Klein
What do you remember most from high school?
[00:15:43.310] - Don Moss
A lot of it was... A lot of it revolved around the football stuff and the cars and Friday night stuff with Friday night and things and that deal with friends. But all my friends were building our own cars and things like that. So a lot of it revolved around that.
[00:16:15.980] - Big Rich Klein
So was it easy to stay out of trouble in a small town like that?
[00:16:20.650] - Don Moss
I think so. It's like anywhere. You do something dumb. You got to expect some kind of consequences.
[00:16:31.950] - Big Rich Klein
I know that when I was growing up, the local police seemed to be a lot... Things were easier than they are nowadays. You get a lot more leeway. I don't think kids nowadays have a lot of leeway. But then again, they don't show any respect as well. So that could be a lot of it.
[00:16:56.160] - Don Moss
And.
[00:16:59.520] - Big Rich Klein
You started a family at what age?
[00:17:02.820] - Don Moss
We were mid 20s or so.
[00:17:07.600] - Big Rich Klein
We.
[00:17:09.800] - Don Moss
Got married 21, 22 years old, so.
[00:17:15.030] - Big Rich Klein
And was that a high school thing to start off with?
[00:17:21.150] - Don Moss
No? No, we met at Cal Poly. And I'd been going to school a couple of years by then. Actually, I started at Cal Poly Pomona. And after five quarters, I was able to get in to San Luis Obispo. And actually met my wife the first week I was there in San Luis Obispo.
[00:17:54.820] - Big Rich Klein
Okay, excellent.
[00:17:56.390] - Don Moss
Did.
[00:17:58.040] - Big Rich Klein
She know at that time she was going to be drug off to the Eastern Sierras?
[00:18:02.180] - Don Moss
No, actually, that's a whole long story, but no. But no, she spent some time here and got familiar with it, but it took pretty much 30-some years to get her back over here.
[00:18:21.770] - Big Rich Klein
Where did she grow up?
[00:18:25.050] - Don Moss
Southern California.
[00:18:29.830] - Big Rich Klein
Okay. Excellent. And what did you study in college?
[00:18:35.330] - Don Moss
I started out in mechanical engineering in Pomona, and when I transferred, I was able to get into agricultural engineering and went ahead and finished a degree in that.
[00:18:49.360] - Big Rich Klein
And then you were from San Luis Obisbo. What did you do with your Ag degree at that point?
[00:18:58.720] - Don Moss
After... Well, there was a lot that happened. We got married while we were still there at school, and actually had our oldest daughter while we were still there. And then- That's.
[00:19:13.850] - Big Rich Klein
A challenge.
[00:19:15.440] - Don Moss
Yeah, it was-.
[00:19:18.570] - Big Rich Klein
Being young students.
[00:19:22.410] - Don Moss
-had a lot going on. At that time, we were, for the most part, we were putting ourselves through school as well. We were both working and paying the bills and paying the rent. We were busy with that. The job opportunity came up in Sacramento in 1988, and we took that and moved up there. It was actually working for basically the same company that I started with back then and doing hydroelectric power plants.
[00:20:06.850] - Big Rich Klein
At.
[00:20:09.430] - Don Moss
That time, they were building a lot of new projects. I was constantly on the road with the construction stuff when we first got up there in 1988. And then when we went up there, we thought, Well, we'll be there for two years, and then we'll find something else to do.
[00:20:33.840] - Big Rich Klein
Two years stretched into about how many?
[00:20:37.500] - Don Moss
Like.
[00:20:38.300] - Big Rich Klein
30-some years. Like 30-some years.
[00:20:41.680] - Don Moss
But my wife got busy with basically a teaching career there, and got into that and several kids later and everybody's busy with that. You get...
[00:21:04.000] - Big Rich Klein
Get sidetracked on your plans? Or not sidetracked, it's just things change.
[00:21:09.530] - Don Moss
And.
[00:21:10.700] - Big Rich Klein
How many kids do you have?
[00:21:12.690] - Don Moss
I've got four kids.
[00:21:13.770] - Big Rich Klein
Four kids. Split, two and two, or?
[00:21:18.240] - Don Moss
Yeah, two girls and two boys.
[00:21:20.970] - Big Rich Klein
Nice. Perfect.
[00:21:22.530] - Don Moss
And.
[00:21:24.120] - Big Rich Klein
Are they into agriculture?
[00:21:28.360] - Don Moss
They are. Okay. The oldest daughter is actually here in Bishop, the Bishop area. And she has three girls of her own, and she's gone through a variety of things, but she's been helping me with the farming stuff. And second daughter is involved with... She's a teacher as well and did high school ag for several years over in the Central Valley and is up in Carson City now. And the boys, they were the younger two, and one was in the Marines for five years and ended up in South Dakota, and the youngest one is still in Sacramento.
[00:22:27.780] - Big Rich Klein
South Dakota is that... No, it's North Dakota, where all the oil fields.
[00:22:33.940] - Don Moss
Right. Okay. Yeah, he made friends with some people from Sioux Falls there, and they invited him to come stay with them after he finished with the Marines. They do have hunting there, and he's got a job with Penske Trucking there in Sioux Falls and has since moved to a precast concrete outfit there. There you go. Yeah, not so much ag-related, but... You're at the shop.
[00:23:14.280] - Big Rich Klein
When did your racing career get started?
[00:23:20.970] - Don Moss
Actually, when I was 16, still in high school there. Pretty much the only form of motor racing stuff here in Bishop was the Local Destruction Derby at the county fair.
[00:23:31.920] - Big Rich Klein
I.
[00:23:32.740] - Don Moss
Was put on by the volunteer fire department. At that time, they didn't have age restrictions, so I was able to start when I was 16. I was sophomore in high school and built my own car, 1959 Rambler, stationway again.
[00:23:58.020] - Big Rich Klein
Wagons always work the best.
[00:24:00.090] - Don Moss
But it came in a lot of pieces, a rope behind a pickup. It was a very short... My night ended early.
[00:24:17.520] - Big Rich Klein
Oh, did it?
[00:24:18.140] - Don Moss
I would say, yeah. I had built my own drive shaft out of basically like a rag joint for a steering system, and it didn't hold up very well. No.
[00:24:30.250] - Big Rich Klein
Didn't square tube it.
[00:24:35.570] - Don Moss
No, didn't even know about that back then. But the car next to us, they abandoned it, left it there, and I brought it home and used it the next year, the 1960 Impala. That was a pretty short night as well. I don't know, I had some ignition problems or something. I ended up twisting the drive shaft off on it as well. But it had a 348 with three-two barrels on it. It was quite a car. But it busted out and had been hit by a snow plow of a mammoth. It was in pretty tough shape.
[00:25:24.590] - Big Rich Klein
And that was before it's demolition years, huh?
[00:25:28.340] - Don Moss
Yeah, before it's... Before it got that last shot at.
[00:25:37.290] - Big Rich Klein
Glory there. So then when your racing career there in Bishop doing the demolition derbies. How many times did you do that in those.
[00:25:49.490] - Don Moss
Early years? I did it about 12 years.
[00:25:52.060] - Big Rich Klein
Oh, wow. Okay.
[00:25:53.260] - Don Moss
Yeah. But they actually got pretty good at it, got to where we could do pretty well and figured out how to save the cars and how to build the cars and what cars to start with and things like that. At the end, I was buying cars off the lot or off the street and things and setting them up to run, but was able to pay the expenses and things like that with the winnings on that.
[00:26:27.420] - Big Rich Klein
Well, that's good. Was that just once a year like for the county fair? Yeah.
[00:26:31.690] - Don Moss
Okay. Yeah, just once a year.
[00:26:33.850] - Big Rich Klein
Okay.
[00:26:34.560] - Don Moss
But there's nothing that's been more fun than that. There's nothing that gets your adrenaline going anymore than that.
[00:26:43.850] - Big Rich Klein
Than a half an hour of car.
[00:26:46.060] - Don Moss
Wreck, carnage. Right. Yes.
[00:26:48.470] - Big Rich Klein
Hopefully half an hour.
[00:26:52.140] - Don Moss
Yeah, a lot of fun.
[00:26:54.060] - Big Rich Klein
So how did that step from demolition into offroad, which is more controlled carnage?
[00:27:02.200] - Don Moss
Right. Trying to think that question is a good question where it actually got started. Had wanted to do that for a long time. I had seen stuff about Baha and offroad stuff. I've got an uncle that had raced motorcycles in Southern California, Endurance stuff. I had a little bit of background from that. I had some model of a Baha bug that I built years and years ago in grade school and things like that. And then all through high school, I had wanted to do that and remembered classmates and stuff that had come in with Husong's T-shirts and stuff from and things like that. I knew I wanted to see some stuff about Baha, but also knew how expensive it was, so knew it was out of reach for quite a while. But I went to races as often as we could. I was isolated from that. But they did have the, at that time it was the Frontier 500 that ran up through the HDRA stuff, I believe, that ran up through Nevada. Basically like the Vegas to Renos stuff. We go out and watched that. Then once they got into college and especially got up to San Luis, CisboVac.
[00:29:00.340] - Don Moss
They actually had the SAE Club, Society of Automotive Engineers Club, had a 7S Toyota truck that they were racing at that time. I was able to get involved once I transferred up there into that program and actually got involved with the last race that that truck raced at the Met 400. I believe that was 1983. Nice. They were running Baha races and stuff like that, a full-on deal. There was that, I believe it was, Bryan Kudella, that got that program started or built that truck in the late '70s. Actually, in 1981, I believe they had Roger Mirs that raced at Riverside and actually won with that truck.
[00:30:07.930] - Big Rich Klein
With the school program truck?
[00:30:09.850] - Don Moss
Yeah. Wow. There was a lot of people that went through that program. Rick Sturkau went on to Fly Space Shuttels. He's still with... He's a test pilot with the in Galactic now, but he was there with that program as well. A whole bunch of people went on to work with Cal Wells at PPI, engineering jobs and things like that. That was quite an experience, the last race. I learned how to not do a lot of things.
[00:30:59.150] - Big Rich Klein
Did you get seat time?
[00:31:01.970] - Don Moss
No. After the race, the drivers took us around, took the crew around a little bit. It was pretty impressive for what wheel travel that had. But they had the, I believe, Fox shocks and stuff on it at that time, and how well it did with the limited amount of wheel travel.
[00:31:29.400] - Big Rich Klein
Yeah, I would imagine it probably wasn't more than 14 inches of wheel travel.
[00:31:32.930] - Don Moss
Oh, no, we're talking six or seven inches. Six or seven.
[00:31:36.230] - Big Rich Klein
Oh, so it was a 7S? Yes. Okay, seven stock.
[00:31:41.100] - Don Moss
But we ended up driving all night to get out there to the race. Everybody was just dead tired. They had never fired the engine before they got out to the course. Really? They had a brand new engine. So things like that.
[00:32:02.970] - Big Rich Klein
Was it just we're going to save it and we're just going to do it wait until we're there? Or was it last minute, still wrenching on it?
[00:32:11.220] - Don Moss
Just last-minute stuff.
[00:32:12.590] - Big Rich Klein
Okay. Typical racing stuff.
[00:32:15.220] - Don Moss
Yeah. And then we probably had 30 people that went out there. And I learned that each time you had a person, you had about 30 minutes to your departure time.
[00:32:30.160] - Big Rich Klein
It.
[00:32:33.580] - Don Moss
Was tough.
[00:32:34.940] - Big Rich Klein
So then after that program in college and you move up to Sacramento, did you just continue racing? Find some way to continue racing? Or was there a break off there for a while?
[00:32:51.580] - Don Moss
No, I did. I still knew the expense was still out of reach. This was late '80s, early '90s, and I had known about Vora. Actually, I wrote a letter to Ed Robinson, who owned Vora at the time, and volunteering to work on a race team. This is before any social media or any of that stuff. I actually wrote a letter. Didn't really get much of a response, but he invited me out to come basically come be a courseworker. And I did that for a couple of years, on and off when I could. Actually, I met Steve Sullivan and got to know him. And there's actually some guardrail still out there at Prairie City that we put up.
[00:33:55.710] - Big Rich Klein
From the Ed Robinson days?
[00:33:57.420] - Don Moss
Yes. Okay. Yep. Yeah, I was looking for racing stuff that I could afford and realized that there was some circle track stuff going on in Roseville. And bought a '76 Granada, which turns out is very similar. If you take the body off of it, it's pretty much a Mustang platform, which I was pretty familiar with, and bought that and built it into a street-stock car that I ended up racing at Roseville for several years, and built it up to where I was able to win a championship in that class in '95 with that car. During the year, it ended up getting totaled, ended up breaking an accident and rolling it down. I thought straight away. But borrowed a car to finish the season and had enough points already to win the championship in '95 with that.
[00:35:12.970] - Big Rich Klein
Tell me you borrowed a Ford.
[00:35:17.000] - Don Moss
I did. There was another racer that had a Torino that he'd raced on and off and really wasn't racing it much at the time. And so he volunteered the car and he was having trouble. We couldn't make the automatic transmissions last in the the Ford automatic transmissions to survive. So I switched to a manual three-speed, and that was the key. That was that, and they had a weight rule change in '95, and that made all the difference.
[00:35:59.470] - Big Rich Klein
So you're racing circle track with a manual, three-speed manual.
[00:36:06.500] - Don Moss
Yep, yeah, first gear. So we ended up putting that transmission into the Torino, and after a couple of nights of blowing up automatic transmissions, I got really good at changing transmissions with the floor jack and jack stands.
[00:36:29.120] - Big Rich Klein
And you'd only run in first gear?
[00:36:31.980] - Don Moss
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that was the end up with somewhere around six and a half to seven, seven to gear ratio if you're using the right rear end.
[00:36:48.390] - Big Rich Klein
So you're running somewhere in the threes in the rear end?
[00:36:51.580] - Don Moss
Yeah. We ended up putting the manual transmission in the Torino and actually got to finish some races then.
[00:37:04.990] - Big Rich Klein
I was also saying if you were shifting out there, you're using the clutch unless you're trying to speed shift, and then you've got the car sideways for half the lap, it would become... Shifting gears would become very... It'd just throw in an extra, wishing you had an extra arm and a leg, I.
[00:37:28.510] - Don Moss
Would imagine. Right. Yeah. No, it wasn't necessary in the... At that time, it was a quarter-mile oval track, and there's no need for shifting.
[00:37:41.770] - Big Rich Klein
Winder out on the straightaways.
[00:37:44.080] - Don Moss
With that combination, it would run up to about 6,500 RPM at the end of the straightaway. But for the clutch, we ended up just using the emergency brake pedal and the cable and hook it up to the clutch fork. You get it in gear once you get it rolling, you never touch it again. So it worked fine.
[00:38:12.420] - Big Rich Klein
That's ingenuity.
[00:38:14.240] - Don Moss
I.
[00:38:15.760] - Big Rich Klein
Wouldn't have thought of that, at least I hadn't thought of that. Maybe if the scenario, I came across it and having to do something that would have been an option. But no, I hadn't thought about that. Plus, most of the vehicles I had had E-brakes at a handle, not the pedal.
[00:38:39.650] - Don Moss
After that season, things took some time off and ended up buying a modified. At that time, they were IMCA modified cars and bought one of those. The car was built for a guy that was about five foot three. I just could not ever get comfortable in that thing. I've actually still got the car, but could never win anything with that car. It was just too.
[00:39:13.190] - Big Rich Klein
Cramped up. And how tall are you?
[00:39:16.010] - Don Moss
I'm only 5'10. Okay. These guys were small.
[00:39:24.120] - Big Rich Klein
It makes a difference.
[00:39:26.400] - Don Moss
Yes, it does. In that class, you've got to be able to... You've've really got to be able to finess the throttle. They've got quite a bit of horsepower, no weight, and a skinny tire. You've really got to be able to be on the throttle. And itwas if you're cramped up, you just can't do it.
[00:39:49.950] - Big Rich Klein
How long did you just race the modified to one year?
[00:39:52.620] - Don Moss
Just a couple of years. '97, '98, somewhere around in there. But meanwhile, my brother had gotten involved with some other... He'd gone to Cal Pauley, and he'd gotten involved with some guys that put together a quad or a TV and had taken it to Mexico to race that. So I got involved as a crew member with those guys throughout the 90s. They started out with a quad and eventually went to motorcycles and they would do their own pits and stuff. And they could only get, what was it? 65 miles, I believe it was, on fuel with the quad. They had to have pits every 65 miles.
[00:40:51.560] - Big Rich Klein
So a lot of leapfrogging.
[00:40:53.710] - Don Moss
Actually, yeah, the ones that we did, we were out there. We went out there, did that pit, and then went home. Oh, wow. And we would do the remote ones like south of Bay of L. A. Or things like that way out there in the sticks. They got involved with those guys and all the tie, everything ties back to Cal Pauley. I was doing that with those guys when they would do races, mainly the Baha 1000. I got to know those guys and all pretty good people and got a lot of experience. Everybody got a lot of experience with Baha and the racing stuff.
[00:41:56.640] - Big Rich Klein
I think Baha has a lot to do with experience. I tell everybody that I always ask, Well, how do I get into racing? It's like, first thing you need to do is find a team to go down with. Exactly. And if you can't find a team before you get down there, go down, look around, find some guys that are doing something in a car that looks interesting, and ask if you can help.
[00:42:24.720] - Don Moss
And.
[00:42:25.740] - Big Rich Klein
Get involved, and just learn from the ground up. I understand what it's like to be what I call in-country, and there's some nuances that you have to remember. Everybody, Oh, man, it's not safe down there. It is safe down there if you're smart.
[00:42:42.160] - Don Moss
One.
[00:42:44.590] - Big Rich Klein
Of the things that I did is after Vora, well, during Vora, I went down in 2003 with Jack Seipolt to pit with BFG, and that was the year they shot The Dust of Glory. My son and I went down there, worked the pits, and that was my first experience in Mexico. Okay. I was like, Okay, now I'm hooked. And then got involved with the guys from Pirate, and then from there with Pistol Pete. Oh, okay. That was the after-VORRA years for me. But really enjoy doing that and still enjoy going down there. Just haven't been able to do it the last couple of years. When did you get started in your own program to Desert Race?
[00:43:45.730] - Don Moss
Everything came together in 2000. They announced they were going to do the 2,000-mile race. I said, Well, I've got to do that. I had a pretty good year with work, I had a good bonus.
[00:44:11.070] - Big Rich Klein
Your wife didn't get new furniture?
[00:44:13.980] - Don Moss
She did not.
[00:44:15.440] - Big Rich Klein
I know she's sitting there.
[00:44:19.260] - Don Moss
Yes, she's listening in. That all came about. I still had the engine from the street-stock car, the 351 Windsor from that, sitting on the floor in the garage. My father-in-law had Broncos for forever, early Broncos, and just recently finally sold the last one that he had. My brother and I just sat down with him and we talked about it and what it would take to do a 2,000-mile race. That's where we came up with the '79 Bronco. We decided that that was what you'd have to have to survive that many miles. Early in 2000, I went out and bought two of them and brought them home and made a decision on which one was going to be the race vehicle. The other one was supposed to be parts or a pre-runner and rolling spare parts. Started in and started building on it. By this time, I'd built probably six or seven circle track cars. It was doing the cages and all that stuff, all the same. Pretty similar. Tubing was bigger. And then going back to the 12 years of destruction derby stuff. But yeah, tore into that thing and down to the frame and built it back up.
[00:46:05.810] - Don Moss
But we decided that that axel combination, the C6 transmission and all of that and the straight axle were what we would need to survive that a race. And it was all completely wrong.
[00:46:26.270] - Big Rich Klein
Wishing you had the TBI?
[00:46:28.840] - Don Moss
Yes, yeah, that would have been wish we just started there instead of... But at that time, that body style, they were a dime-a-dozen. You could pick them up pretty cheap. They were in the junkyards. All those parts and pieces were easy to get. The Winsor didn't come in that model year, but we converted it over and-.
[00:47:06.830] - Big Rich Klein
Converted it over, you mean to make it look like a 302?
[00:47:10.780] - Don Moss
No, really, all they had was the 351. I had the M and the 400 in those years. But that was part of the deal. That was part of the parts I already had. I'd been collecting other parts and pieces for years. I had a rear end, a floater rear end, and things like that. But we put it all together. My brother and we had another one of the guys from the motorcycle teams that helped a bunch with the fabrication. It was fairly local at the time. But yeah, put it all together, but still ended up doing things like wiring the thing the night before we left for the race and all that stuff.
[00:48:09.560] - Big Rich Klein
The typical race stuff. Yeah.
[00:48:11.900] - Don Moss
Yeah, that's how it always ends up. So and.
[00:48:15.600] - Big Rich Klein
How did that 2000 and 2000 go for you?
[00:48:19.980] - Don Moss
Well, we did finish. That took 68 hours. There was a 72-hour time limit. But within, I think, 125 miles, we started having trouble with transmission. And by the end, it had completely just welded itself together. The transmission had just everything had seized up inside of the gear train. It was just a direct drive with a torque converter.
[00:48:53.450] - Big Rich Klein
We.
[00:48:53.810] - Don Moss
Had no reverse. We had... Oh, gosh, what else?
[00:49:01.520] - Big Rich Klein
The- So you didn't want to over shoot any turns?
[00:49:04.670] - Don Moss
No, and we did. We got stuck on a tree, had to cut the tree apart to be able to continue forward. Because they've got these hairpin turns that it takes, unless you've got a whole lot of horsepower to make that turn, you're stuck. So anyway, yeah, there was that. It spit the pinion shaft out at like 1200 miles or so. We'd stripped the parts, Bronco, we'd stripped it down and put that in the back of a pickup all the drivetrain. So we had a stock rear-end that we ended up putting in it. So the front-end had 456 gears and the rear-end was a 350 with a transmission that only had high gear. It was a handful. Let's see. We put the stalk rearing in, then we broke the springs, the leaf springs in the back. We had BFG weld up some boxes to box the broken parts back together and hold it together. I think we lost the brakes on that. Yes, we did. We had no rear breaks. We put that other rear in and said, We'll be fine with just the front brakes. I drove a dissection and my brother drove at a section and we stopped to fix the rear brakes.
[00:50:48.720] - Don Moss
You'd come down a hill and the front end would skid. You'd skid all the way to the last second. You let off the brakes and it would dart off to the side because it doesn't steer when those front wheels are skidding.
[00:51:02.890] - Big Rich Klein
Right.
[00:51:03.580] - Don Moss
It was so scary.
[00:51:06.690] - Big Rich Klein
But those are the memories. If every race ran smooth, they would all run together. You wouldn't have the stories.
[00:51:16.720] - Don Moss
Yeah, that's right. I think we ended up fifth, we were the last finisher in the class, obviously, but we did finish. We'll have those stories forever.
[00:51:32.540] - Big Rich Klein
Exactly. What was the next race after the 2000?
[00:51:40.000] - Don Moss
2001, I had a big project going on, big construction project going on down in San Diego. Well, everybody was burned out and I was busy with that, and so we didn't race. 2002, we decided to do the full-score in the whole score in the season and put the truck back together and run the whole season. So Loughlin would have been the first race with the score then. So that was where we jumped in with that, and there was really no one else running all of the races. So that started our points championship. The Pointes Championship program of doing those.
[00:52:39.450] - Big Rich Klein
Showing up and completing a race, and even if nobody else shows up in the class, you're still racing?
[00:52:49.170] - Don Moss
Oh, absolutely. My hat's off to anybody that can show up and finish a race. Correct. It is... It's an accomplishment. It's absolutely an accomplishment. Every race that you can do that. We've actually got five of the... At that time, they were the Toyota... What was it? True Grit or whatever awards for finishing all the miles of all the races in a season, and we have five of those. That's probably one of the things I'm proudest of, of the team being able to do that, finish all those races in those years.
[00:53:32.440] - Big Rich Klein
Very good. That is an accomplishment.
[00:53:36.200] - Don Moss
So.
[00:53:37.650] - Big Rich Klein
When did you come out and race Vora for the first time?
[00:53:41.930] - Don Moss
I think like you said, it was 2003 or '04, somewhere around in there.
[00:53:50.400] - Big Rich Klein
Because I bought Vora from Robinson at the end of 2002, he came up to me. I was putting on a rock crawl at Donner, Donner Ski Ranch, and he came out and he said, Hey, I really want to talk to you about taking over this desert racing organization. I said, I don't know anything about desert racing. He goes, I'll teach you. I just need somebody that can put on an event. I said, Well, I can do that. So we went to Prairie City for, I want to say, at least the last race, I think it may have been the last two races. Then after the... I think it was the last two races. And then after that first one, I said, Okay, I'll do this, just because it was such a great family.
[00:54:37.340] - Don Moss
I.
[00:54:39.150] - Big Rich Klein
Enjoyed, and Robinson the whole time was saying, Well, if you don't take it over, it's just going to go away. And nobody's going to have any place to race. Not knowing that Kadanoway actually wanted it. But he didn't want to buy it from Robinson. Of course, Robinson didn't want to just give it away. Right. So then that's how I got involved.
[00:54:59.710] - Don Moss
Oh, okay.
[00:55:00.040] - Big Rich Klein
So you was right around that time. Okay, cool.
[00:55:04.500] - Don Moss
I really enjoyed Ed Robinson. I felt like he took good care of me for the... When I was able to come out and do that, he would recognize me and make sure I had a T-shirt and things like that. So little stuff like that always impresses me. So yeah, I think that was about it. I remember my youngest son, we were still carrying him around. But it was just a once or twice type of deal that Bronco is so out of its element on that short course stuff. Absolutely. We rarely never got it out of first gear for that. But it was so much fun and then having the family there and stuff. I still vividly remember in the tech, Little Rich saying, Well, you had some crazy rule about you had to have a rubber thing on the front bumper.
[00:56:20.940] - Big Rich Klein
Oh, God, yes. What a nightmare that was. That was in the rulebook.
[00:56:26.960] - Don Moss
I know. We zip-tied some rollbar padding onto the front. He's going, I don't know if that qualifies. I said, Okay, we're never going to be able to catch anybody to hit anybody. This is going to be fine, I promise you. I was completely right. But however, with the four-wheel drive, we could get the jump on everybody and whatever. I don't remember even what class we were running with, but we had all of the class 9 oror something all scattered around us in that the landrush start. We could kill everybody on the start, and they would just scatter. That thing would bellow and they would just scatter and all the.
[00:57:16.320] - Big Rich Klein
Rest just get away.
[00:57:17.040] - Don Moss
They didn't want to be anywhere near. Yeah. And then they realized they could just drive by us. They would take a half a lap and, Oh, we just have to drive by them because we're sliding around and couldn't get around the corners and stuff.
[00:57:33.990] - Big Rich Klein
Because you were probably all spooled, right?
[00:57:37.890] - Don Moss
Oh, yeah. I can't remember his name. There was a guy with… He had that class eight Ford pickup. And same thing. We could kill him on the start, and then when it was wet and then he would catch us on the later on. And he ended up rolling the truck. He just caught us and he ended up rolling the truck. But it was a lot of fun. Loughlin was the same way, a short course format. But and able to take the family and stuff out there for that was always pretty good. And the weather was usually pretty decent that time of year.
[00:58:27.380] - Big Rich Klein
So you raced a lot of score. Did you race best in the desert?
[00:58:29.890] - Don Moss
A little bit, Vegas to Reno. We did Vegas to Reno a couple of times. And same thing, we didn't have really a class to run in, and we'd end up running with sportsmen class. And some high-end buggy just runs away with it. So there was really no... It's not much fun when you don't have any competition and you've got to try to find somebody to race with somehow. Running by yourself is really not that much fun. But we did it because it was a challenge, and it's so close for us. We're only a couple of hours from the finish line to get back to Bishop or even back to Sacramento. So it.
[00:59:22.920] - Big Rich Klein
Makes total sense.
[00:59:24.730] - Don Moss
Yeah, but the first year we ended up a smack to rock with the front end, somewhere between Tonepa and Minot and broke the front axel. And we ended up with a DNF that year, and we should have put the spare axel under it and finished the race. That was depressing. We came back the next year and at least finished it.
[01:00:03.760] - Big Rich Klein
Very good.
[01:00:04.420] - Don Moss
But so I did a couple of those. I did some other ones with and Hawthorne.
[01:00:15.570] - Big Rich Klein
I liked the Hawthorne course.
[01:00:18.670] - Don Moss
Yeah. And that... Gosh, I wish I could remember his name. The guy with the class state truck we had... I think we finished second in the class. I think we were running class eight. We finished and I saw the car wash was like a dollar or something there. I put the truck on the trailer and washed it and we're back at the hotel and the other guy, he had some trouble, and he came back and we'd already finished, washed the truck and back at the hotel and he was so... Oh, it made him feel bad.
[01:01:10.910] - Big Rich Klein
That.
[01:01:11.490] - Don Moss
Happens. But that's the fallon races, that's where the Bronco that met its demise here a couple of years ago. And he ended up rolling it on the last lap, which was about 12 miles to go.
[01:01:35.720] - Big Rich Klein
And.
[01:01:36.920] - Don Moss
We haven't gotten it put back together all the way yet. But there were some enormous rocks that got into the course. I don't know what happened if somebody drove over them and pushed them in there. But we were running with only three breaks on the truck. We lost a caliper or something on the front. And came around the corner, probably about 60 or so. And it's like, Uh-oh.
[01:02:11.550] - Big Rich Klein
And here's the boulder.
[01:02:13.060] - Don Moss
Yeah. So instead of driving over them and cleaning out the whole of the axels, we rolled over the boulders because it pitched sideways as soon as I got on the brakes and went over. But I messed it pretty bad. We've gotten as far as replacing the... We've already replaced the frame and the body of the trucks. It was pretty bad. But did finish, ended up getting second for the class, the group T class.
[01:02:51.490] - Big Rich Klein
Perfect. Okay. Yeah. What's the time frame, do you think, on being out there again and taking a green flag?
[01:03:02.360] - Don Moss
Well, they're running that Baha 1,000, they're running it in reverse this year. Would really like to do that. I just don't know if that's going to... If it's in the cards or not.
[01:03:14.880] - Big Rich Klein
That's right. They're going to start in La Paz.
[01:03:17.510] - Don Moss
Yeah. Those one-of-a-kind races are such an attraction, I guess. But you've just got a lot of things going on. We bought a place that's about 80 acres, and we came back over here to Bishop and looking for something to do with it and ended up growing some garlic this year.
[01:03:46.180] - Big Rich Klein
When you said that yesterday or this morning, whenever it was that we were texting and I was thinking Bishop garlic, because I always thought Gilroy was like the garlic capital.
[01:03:58.530] - Don Moss
Well, it is. They grow in a lot of places, more than in Gilroy these days. But the reason they have it in Bishop is because it's isolated, and this is seed garlic, and they'll take this and they'll take it on to other locations that have disease problems and they can grow at that one year. But it's a disease-free seed, basically. So that's why they like it here. And so we're only doing three acres this year, but they'll take this on and plant hundreds of acres with this. But Bishop being isolated, they've got some places that they grow at and they've got the company that we're doing it for has got up to 4,000 acres in the Central Valley that they're doing. But the seed itself or the stuff that they'll plant has to come from a disease-free location. So that's why they like it here. Another friend of mine that I grew up with has been doing it for the last 25, 26 years or something, and he retired from it this last year. And so I thought, Well, we'll give it a try.
[01:05:35.010] - Big Rich Klein
So how long ago did you get back into Bishop?
[01:05:41.710] - Don Moss
We bought the place, I think, two years in October. Okay. I was a family that had... Basically, they built the place when I was in high school that we bought. I've been familiar with it and they were good friends of the family and stuff since they've been there. It was a mutual deal. They were glad to see it. Stick with- See us get that.
[01:06:19.410] - Big Rich Klein
Are you growing anything else on the rest of the acreage?
[01:06:24.180] - Don Moss
No, I got lots of tumbleweeds. Lots of tumbleweeds this year. But I've got some orchards of a couple of dozen trees and got a lot of apples, pears, and things like that this year. But yeah, it's economics and it's a little small. Most of what's grown around here is alfalfa. But you've got to make it pay. It's got to be a pretty large scale. Right.
[01:07:00.300] - Big Rich Klein
But the seed garlic sounds like it does pretty good. Yes. For just three acres?
[01:07:08.210] - Don Moss
Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Typically, you'll plant it in October and then harvest it in July. We got it in late, so we're harvesting late this year.
[01:07:19.510] - Big Rich Klein
The winter was a little rough.
[01:07:24.160] - Don Moss
To put it mildly, yes. We were… My wife got snowed in. Our driveway has been flooded out numerous times all since January. Now we're dealing with the silt that they're washed in. We've had the trash truck get stuck, UPS trucks and FedEx trucks and everything else. So it's been quite a year for the weather.
[01:07:59.660] - Big Rich Klein
Yeah, I think I drove through, I want to say it was April or May. I think it was May, maybe the end of May. Maybe the end of May. We were on our way down to Ridgecrest for an off-road thing. I couldn't believe coming through all the small areas there how much water there was everywhere. Not just Bishop, but Bridgeport, everywhere. It just seemed like there was just that whole valley.
[01:08:33.040] - Don Moss
Was.
[01:08:33.530] - Big Rich Klein
Just wet.
[01:08:35.670] - Don Moss
Yes. Yeah, it was quite a deal. We were fortunate that it was a pretty mild spring. If it had been warmer, if it had started out hot, we'd have been in trouble. The runoff would have been underwater, really underwater.
[01:08:54.160] - Big Rich Klein
I'm glad that didn't happen.
[01:08:56.510] - Don Moss
They spread a lot of water all over the place. But yeah, Bridgeport, there was a lot of water there. And I'm still commuting back and forth to the Sacramento area. I'm still doing the other work that I do. So I see that piece of road pretty regularly.
[01:09:19.240] - Big Rich Klein
It's a gorgeous drive.
[01:09:21.940] - Don Moss
It's.
[01:09:23.140] - Big Rich Klein
Probably one of the prettiest drives of anywhere that we travel, and I travel all over the United States to be doing events, and it is absolutely in a gorgeous area. Yeah, I got it. In fact, we're going to be heading down around the 20th to… 20th? Yeah, a little bit, maybe a little later after that down to Mammoth to check out the ski resort for an event that we're helping with. And I'm looking forward to that drive again.
[01:09:56.400] - Don Moss
Yeah.
[01:09:58.310] - Big Rich Klein
So what's next? What's next?
[01:10:02.440] - Don Moss
How.
[01:10:04.190] - Big Rich Klein
Long are you going to be doing the commute?
[01:10:08.240] - Don Moss
Indefently. I don't have any retirement plans. If I sit down, I go to sleep. So it's...
[01:10:22.680] - Big Rich Klein
It's better to keep moving.
[01:10:24.580] - Don Moss
You bet. I'm just to figure maybe one of these times I won't wake up. I don't know. My wife did retire from her school teaching. She's been out a year now, so she's done her retirement. But I would like to get the place set up to where I can do some decent fabrication and build some new stuff. I have a lot of projects that are still sitting around, still got that CJ2A.
[01:11:08.120] - Big Rich Klein
There you go.
[01:11:10.120] - Don Moss
Get it going again type of thing.
[01:11:14.250] - Big Rich Klein
How stock is that CJ2A?
[01:11:18.240] - Don Moss
It has a military transmission. I think that's the only change that was made. We couldn't get a civilian. There were surprisingly quite a few differences between the military version and the CDA2A was supposed to be the civilian one that was set up to... They had a PTO and you could run farm implements and stuff like that. They were going to try to make it a multi-use agriculture and transportation-type thing. And it really was too light for that. In fact, that's why my dad rescued it from the farming operation. They were using it to haul irrigation pipe, and he was putting the clutch in it once a month. And so we thought that's enough of that and move that to a tractor or something. But yeah, it's pretty stock. It's still got the, like I said, the flat head, four-cylinder in it. We can put a battery in it and get it started today, basically.
[01:12:25.850] - Big Rich Klein
That's awesome. There's a lot of retro type four-wheel drive runs going on nowadays. I've seen that. With the vintage Jeeps. And some of them are pretty staunch on what the rules are with tires and rims and everything. And some of them are a little more relaxed rules and stuff. But where guys are dressing up into period clothing and using... They're only doing the photos out there in black and white. Oh, my gosh. They're really into the whole retro thing, and I find it very intriguing. It's, I don't know, maybe as I get older, there's more nostalgia. Okay, yeah.
[01:13:18.880] - Big Rich Klein
I don't know. Maybe I'm showing my age. But I'm looking to someday pick up a Flatty and do the same thing. Okay. Or Willis pick up an old panel wagon or something like that.
[01:13:35.820] - Don Moss
Okay.
[01:13:38.060] - Big Rich Klein
So that's what I'd like to do somewhere down the road.
[01:13:42.420] - Don Moss
Well.
[01:13:44.210] - Big Rich Klein
Cool. Well, Don, I want to say thank you so much for spending some time and agreeing to come on and talk to me and be a part of the podcast. I've loved the history, and I can't wait to get this on the air and see what all those old friends at Vora and around the world have to say.
[01:14:04.200] - Don Moss
Okay, very good.
[01:14:06.720] - Big Rich Klein
All right, you take care and you guys enjoy your evening.
[01:14:10.880] - Don Moss
Okay, well, thanks again.
[01:14:12.600] - Big Rich Klein
Okay, bye-bye now. Bye. Well, that's another episode of Conversations with Big Rich. I'd like to thank you all for listening. If you could do us a favor and leave us a review on any podcast service that you happen to be listening on, or send us an email, or a text message, or a Facebook message, and let me know any ideas that you have or if there's anybody that you have that you would think would be a great guest, please forward the contact information to me so that we can try to get them on. And always remember, live life to the fullest. Enjoying life is a must. Follow your dreams and live life with all the gust of you can. Thank you.