From Paragon to Badlands, Kyle Knosp shares his philosophies on life and business, with some rockcrawling and some crazy stories thrown in. Attica, Indiana is the place to visit if you want it all.
4:52 – The start of the off-road obsession
9:59 – The REAL difference between East and West off-roading
14:45 – The best part about rockcrawling – it’s always family
19:41 – Count your blessings
30:45 – how Kyle really ended up at the Badlands in Indiana
35:51 – The many parts of being a leader
47:08 –Taking the family to Glamis, oh, what a ride…
55:56 – Kyle goes on a roll…old time rockcrawling stories
If you haven’t been to Attica in a while, it’s time to go back. Kyle has created a first-class facility with all the amenities. Lots of terrain challenges, and if you time it right, you might be able to avoid the mud. Check out. https://badlandsoffroad.com/ for all your offroading needs.
We want to thank our sponsors Maxxis Tires and 4Low Magazine.
Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.
From Paragon to Badlands, Kyle Knosp shares his philosophies on life and business, with some rockcrawling and some crazy stories thrown in. Attica, Indiana is the place to visit if you want it all.
4:52 – The start of the off-road obsession
9:59 – The REAL difference between East and West off-roading
14:45 – The best part about rockcrawling – it’s always family
19:41 – Count your blessings
30:45 – how Kyle really ended up at the Badlands in Indiana
35:51 – The many parts of being a leader
47:08 –Taking the family to Glamis, oh, what a ride…
55:56 – Kyle goes on a roll…old time rockcrawling stories
If you haven’t been to Attica in a while, it’s time to go back. Kyle has created a first-class facility with all the amenities. Lots of terrain challenges, and if you time it right, you might be able to avoid the mud. Check out. https://badlandsoffroad.com/ for all your offroading needs.
We want to thank our sponsors Maxxis Tires and 4Low Magazine.
Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.
Big Rich Klein:
Welcome to the Big Rich show. This podcast will focus on conversations with friends and acquaintances within the four-wheel drive industry. Many of the people that I will be interviewing you may know the name. You may know some of the history, but let's get in depth with these people and find out what truly makes them a 4wheel drive enthusiast. So now is the time to sit back, grab a cold one and enjoy our conversation.
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Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Conversations with Big Rich. Today's guest is going to be Kyle Knosp. He is the owner and operator of Attica, Indiana's Badlands off-road park. Prior to taking over Badlands as the new owner, Kyle had opened and operated a park in Eastern Pennsylvania called Paragon. Let's talk to Kyle about the history of four-wheel drive for him and what it's like to start and open up parks, and then run them. Maybe we can get some insight on what it will take to create a park in the future. All right, Kyle Knosp. How good is it to be seeing you again It's been awhile. Thank you for joining us here on this podcast and talking about the history of Paragon and Badlands and what you're doing and what you plan on doing. So let's get started and ask the simple question. How have you been Where did you start off at in off-road?
Kyle Knosp: I'm doing really good. yeah, we're in midst right now these crazy times of this COVID thing. So, that's a little while. And definitely when I first started this stuff way back when, would never have anticipated the things that we're facing today. And so that's always a crazy challenge. But, you know, started this oh heck, probably 25 years or so. I'm starting when I was 16 kind of before that. My family's always loved Jeeps and things like that, but really started when I was about 15, 16 went wheeling with one of my buddies for the first time. It was just like instantly hooked, loved it, you know, back in the Jeep days. And I always joke with people cause like I remember when like a 31 inch tire was like, Holy moly, I want a 31 inch tire. Now you've got UTVs with, you know, 35s and stuff like that.
Kyle Knosp: So it's crazy. But yeah, back in the, you know, the back of the Jeep days and, that was a really cool, we went on, you know, trail rides with the local club. It was Blue Mountain Jeep Alliance. I'll never forget that back in Pennsylvania. so that was crazy. I'm in Indiana now, so you know, however many States away, but grew up in Pennsylvania, grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. everybody always likes to joke about that being Amish country. I'd didn’t drive a buggy, I had a Jeep and that was my first vehicle and just started wheeling and with the comradery of like the clubs and Jeep Jamboree and things like that, just instantly got hooked and well, here I am. And you less hair, grayer hair and still doing it.
Big Rich Klein: So your first vehicle then was a Jeep or four wheel drive or did you start with something else
Kyle Knosp: No, it was a Jeep a, it was a, I want to say it was a 91 92 Jeep Sahara, was my first Jeep bone stock. and then, you know, I actually, I was younger, so I started when I was 16. I worked two jobs after school and all that stuff. And you know, when I, even when I was in high school, I was doing like a, I was a bus boy and stuff like that to get cash. And every dollar I had, I was buying lift kit, tires. I remember lock right lockers. I saved up, I think it was like 200 bucks and it was like saved up and put a locker in and Oh yeah, it was, that was my thing. And you know, I, I work every evening, you know, after school and then, you know, after I get out of school, I'd work, you know, normal job and I work evening jobs.
Kyle Knosp: And then I started just, you know, every Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I, I mean, heading up to the mountains, it was about probably an hour and a half, two hour drive to where we used the wheel. Mmm. Did that every weekend and then restart Monday morning. And I just kept doing it. And then it was kind of, you know, Jeep Jamboree was, is kind of where we, I got started, kind of doing it as a little more professional and, and getting that kind of teaching other people to do it. so, you know, the first couple of years it was me learning and then the next transition was, from being taught to teaching. and that kind of is where transitioned a lot of my career. Mmm. There was a park that we, so we used to do, back then there wasn't like, you know, East coast, there wasn't really off-road parks.
Kyle Knosp: back then, you know, that was kind of just in the transition of that like pay to ride thing. but there was a lot of like, old strip mines and stuff like that we used to ride on but may not, I want to say it was probably like 90, probably know the stats but probably like late nineties, early two thousands was there was an off road park called Paragon. and I kind of transitioned into, the Jeep club. The person that owned that park had asked a lot of clubs to come up and start helping cut trails. I mean it was a completely bare property except for the few access points. so long story short, you know, at that point I kind of transitioned into being able to like design trails and things like that and started working with the original owner of that place.
Kyle Knosp: cause really it was, it was not, it wasn't even off the ground. It was just a concept for him. and he, he really is the one that came up with it back that way, but I helped him get that started and worked with him and inevitably kind of transitioned into like what I'll call the real job, in the working for him. And that was kind of a big step, you know, at that point, you know, I was in a relationship, I didn't have a baby yet on the way, but that wasn't too far after. so we, we went, we moved about two and a half hours to the off road park, where the off road park was. So that was a change and all that. And long story short, the original owner that didn't have really a lot, a lot of luck with that.
Kyle Knosp: and then it basically came up for sale, back in, I want to say it was 2002, I purchased the park from him. And last, is this like a soap opera Is that what we're trying to do That was, that was crazy that we had a couple of good years of running that. But, at the end of it, kind of at the end of that there was, I was involved, so basically it was a lease of the land and, I was kind of involved in this. it was on TV. Lot of people got in trouble. I don't know what I would exactly, call it, but it was kind of a land grab. and it wasn't really illegal what they were doing at the time. and we were fighting back and forth through the courts and all that kind of stuff.
Kyle Knosp: But long story short, you know, we were just, I always remember this era. I think it was Erin Brockovich, movie, with, what's her name Roberts. Anyway, they had a cart full of paperwork. the lawyer brought in and we were just that, I always remember that because that's what it was like. I mean, if we produced a stack of paperwork like this, they were like this. We were just outgunned and, and under prepared. And we inevitably lost the case. And, so I went back to the real world there for a little while and had a real job. And, that was probably about a year and a half and really never stopped trying to start another off-road park and try to get things going again. Back Pennsylvania. I looked down in Virginia just all over. Mmm. I'm a man of faith, you heavily, and I believe it. God always has a plan and well, our days back, wow. You remember, you helped me put on, or you put on, and I helped you put on my first rock crawling events,
Big Rich Klein: Yes. Bob Roggy and I came out and we put on that first NEUROC event and help train your judges and show you and L little Kyle the, you know, how we did things. And I remember the, I believe it was a red or orange Jeep that you had at the time.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah. Mango. Yeah, you're right. Yep.
Big Rich Klein: And it only had a B pillar hoop.
Kyle Knosp: huh.
Big Rich Klein: And it was like, okay, we w we want to drive off of these ledges and test everything. And, Roggy was like, I ain't driving that thing. It's not got a cage, you know. So you got in there, I was hanging on the back with a strap a couple of times and we guided you off some of the rocks just to get used to it. And I remember saying, if you're going to have a park, you need a full cage.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah. Well, what was crazy was a few months before that, we, so my buddy Charlie Melchner,my, my link into what I would call hardcore wheeling. and he had gone out the year before to, one of the events out West and, did real well. And I linked up with him through Paragon and heck, that was before I owned it. None of that. And Mmm. Then we went to the super crawl. I want to say it was in, New Mexico, if I remember right. At that point. Could be a little long. I've slept a few times since then. But then, yeah, that was where, you know, I got, I think one, I remember one of the first times was when I saw Tiny, for the first time it was the first moon buggy, or at least what I remember it to be, the first moon buggy, Volkswagen powered.
Kyle Knosp: I was like, Holy moly. And I remember when people didn't even have like out there, you guys don't have rust and stuff like that. It was all like bare metal. And I was like, Holy moly, back here. We were still like, there really wasn't anybody, modding Jeeps or none of that kind of stuff yet. It was all, you know, full body vehicles and I, you know, we got into forties and 44’s where they're, you know, the boggers and swamppers and stuff like that. You know, that was, there was no crawlers back then or that was the first part of crawlers. So that was crazy. But, but yeah, and Charlie and I, we went out there, we competed, and just kind of opened my eyes. And, we were there at Paragon and you said little Kyle, Kyle Wooster. He, he was, we will crawl over this hillside and I never really, we took a backhoe and started digging rocks out and then that's when, I think that was a year after you can and we just got hooked on this. we did the event and I remember when I first started with you, man, we had nothing that was like, I basically put that event on with my credit cards to make it happen
Big Rich Klein: Because they are the owner of the park because again, I wasn't the owner at that time. He wanted no part of this, he thought it was dumb. And I'm like, you're missing the boat. Man, EROC, if I remember right, I think they were two or three events ahead of us and they had some big momentum at that time and I'm like, man, you are missing out. And he's like, Hey, you want to pay for the event, take a chance, Then you do it. And I was like, Done. I believed in it and it was really cool. It was a lot of fun.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. Those old, those, those early days, it was a lot of, a lot of trial and error and just trying to figure things out. You know, we were, I started off by working with Ranch Pratt at ARCA and learning what he was doing and then watching Bob Hazel with pro rock, UROC got started the same time I did, EROC was going on.
Big Rich Klein: And it was, it was pretty interesting. I remember the guys at EROC got all upset with us because we had set a date that was on top of one of their events. We had no clue. Yeah. That we were on top of them. And it was like, you know, I remember they got really upset and they didn't even want me. I showed up later down there to put an event on and they were trying to keep me from going in there because we had set up that first date. But that was all with the buddy of mine that had It was the go between, between you and I, Dave Burling and, setting the date and everything. And I think he was, you UROC and EROC were starting to work together with Craig Stumph and whoever it was that was running EROC/I can't remember their names. And then Dave was mad at, at Craig, so he's, you know, he was the one that put the date, said the date, and then we published it and we did everything we could, you know, to make it fit in with what else, what else I was doing. And then those guys got mad down there and it was like, Oh well, you know, go and do what you, you know, people will go where they want, but it all worked out for everybody.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah, it did. And man later, you know, and that was what was so cool about rock crawling, you know, then. And I, I, you know, I'm not out out West, you know, like I used to be, but I would assume it seems like when I'm watching stuff and you know, it seems like that camaraderie starting to get back in and
Big Rich Klein: It was
Kyle Knosp: Later, you know, Darryl and Tim and I can't remember all the guys in EROC, but like I still see Darryl coming, he comes through the park here every so often. Darryl Ottley, he does cross-country dirt bike racing. He's a wild man. but yeah, through the years, you know, like I remember sitting down and talking through rules and you were there and we were doing, It was Patey’s, were the ones that had UROC later in the year,
Kyle Knosp: It was just so crazy to see how, And I will say that's the cool part about, you know, off-roading is, is, it's such a tight knit group and especially, I'm not criticizing UTVs in any way. I mean I love UTV’s, have one, them, you know, the whole nine yards, no criticism. But yeah, there is a difference between like that rock crawling and Jeeping kind of group. They're more tight knit and like, you know, I have one of the guys like the world will go, we'll talk about that later. It's so many different like how small the world truly is. and what rock crawling and just how much like we still talk about years ago and like the pranks and the jokes and all this stuff, not only about the rock crawling but the life around it was Oh, awesome. It wasn't such a cool time to be involved in that.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. And it's, it's nice to see that people are still embedded in the community as enthusiasts or business owners. You know, myself, 2001 was my first event. 2002 was my first series, but I was working with Ranch in 99 when he put the first event on in Cedar city as a club president. I helped him get in there, helped him with volunteers and that kind of thing. They've moved on, the Patey’s are doing other things. Ranch is now starting something up in off road. But Randy Kruse and Shain Chapman, that started the park here in Texas, K2. They're from that same time period. 2000. There's a few of us that are still around, but not, not a whole lot of them. You know, Cody Waggoner's back into competing Jesse Haines, but he, you know, he showed up probably around 2004 I think it was when he started competing, at least with us. You know, it's, it's interesting, interesting to see the people that have stuck with it made a lifestyle out of it, you know, which is, to me it was what it was all about was just wanting to live the lifestyle.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah. it was crazy. Like my, my girl's mom, they, she was going through a photo album and she dug out a picture and gave me a, it was for a holiday and it was my girls, like I was actually my, my oldest, but at that time she was just, you know, pipsqueak and I was wrenching underneath my Jeep and she's laying beside me on a creeper, just her feet hanging out, you know, and the thing we, we just about a week ago, put a lift kit, on her JK and you know, to see her go from that and evolve and yeah, we were sitting there and we were watching it. It was T we were, we had a crazy event at the park. We were so busy, we were sitting at the, the couch and she's just like, she's like daddy and my other daughter, they both were like, we don't do anything inside. Everything we do is outside, you know. And it was crazy. They worked a probably 10 hour day this weekend. And what my daughters wanted to do was go riding afterwards. And I was like, I almost brought a tear to my eye to see like that. It was so awesome.
Big Rich Klein: It's nice to see that the traditions continue. You know, there's a lot of families have been brought up in off-road community. You know, Charlie little Charlie is now, you know, wheeling and, and his daughter's wheeling and my son is running an event in Southern Utah, you know, it's just, it's just so cool to see, to see it, you know, keep going and not just dissipate, disappear. So evolution is just absolutely. So let's talk about some of the, the issues that you see in, in being a park owner or creating parks. I know that there's people out there right now, especially farther in the Eastern, along the Eastern seaboard, you know, through Virginia, the all the way down to Georgia and all the way up into to Maine and New Hampshire that are trying to open up parks. You've been around as a park owner, as long as anybody. So you know, what's your, what would be your recommendation if somebody found a piece of property first How do you find a piece of property and then what, what are the steps to take if somebody wanted to try to open a park
Kyle Knosp: I mean, that's a great question and there's not like one answer that, you know, it's like, you know, fits in the box. But I mean everything is different for each person and their passion. so I mean you have the business model that you want to use and you have the terrain model that you want to use and they're not always the same and you've set courses and stuff like that, you know So keeping an open mind on what you have to work with, I mean, part of any business is, you know, when you, when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade and, and, and so much of my career, and you know what, I've been blessed and God has blessed me with people.
Kyle Knosp: Opportunity. And you know, I always, I always joke there's, there's this little quick joke, you know, there's this woman, right And the things are flooding. And she comes and she goes there, started evacuating the town, and she's like, well, I'm not going to evacuate. God's going to save me. Wow. Okay, no problem. So they go on and Ma’am, are you sure All right. So the water starts to rise and then canoe comes along and then Ma’am, come on, get in the boat. You know,the water’s flooding, we got to go.. Nope, God will save me and keeps going along long, long keeps flooding. And then it's, she's on the roof and helicopter and, and you're, they're like, come on Ma’am, get in the helicopter. Let's go and we want to save you. God will save me. Well, more keeps rising, she goes off and gets drowned. She drowns and she's off in heaven and she looks at God and says, why didn't you save me. And God, He goes, I tried, I sent you, people, I sent a canoe. I sent you a helicopter. So the moral of that story is like, there's so much adversity and through the years, like just craziness there. So you know, risk and liability is a huge thing. So you're always battling that. And that's, you know, it's like we, you know, we talked about the COVID thing right now. There is no way any of us would have anticipated this five years ago, 10 years ago, probably two months ago. so being able to adapt is the biggest thing. So as you know, like in your career and, and through your times, you probably learned more from the things that went wrong then the things that went right. Absolutely. I think that a lot of times when you start a project like this, you need to have that, just fighting adversity and overcoming challenges because that it doesn't matter if it's property, it doesn't matter if it's, weather it does, it could be the economy.
Kyle Knosp: how do you best adapt yourself What's your business plan like my big thing has been morals. Like, I've always wanted to have a family park. so through my big thing, you know, my life cycle, that was one thing that always stayed constant. I have two daughters and I wanted them to be able to go to any event so that I put on or was involved in. I wanted them to be able to go to any event. So what that did was that checked safety because I wouldn't want to put them in an area that they wouldn't be safe. Okay. It would be something that's family oriented because you know, they're my kids and that's not everybody's model. obviously, but, but that was always important to me and I really think that that was kind of like the basis through the years.
Kyle Knosp: Mmm. The advice I'd give you asked the question about property. obviously, you can build things but, but you know, what is their existing, seeing that kind of block of clay and what someone can do with it is, is important because, you know, people, I think in my personal opinion, a lot of people, put things in the wrong orders. Okay. So geographics and competition is always important. Okay. So if you add a hundred thousand acre park and you're going to put a 500 acre park beside it, what are you going to do different Because they've got a leg up, you know, and it doesn't mean you're out of the game. I mean, you could, you could think of something different. I mean, there's all kinds of businesses, but there's a lot of like that, those kinds of challenges. so I've been, so this April, I took over the Badlands Off-Road Park.
Kyle Knosp: I bought that from Troy and Lisa Myers. And as long as, there’s a cool, funny story about that, we'll come back to that. But like when I got that it was an existing park, we were in a downward economy. I knew that I was, I had some challenges ahead of me. Mmm. There's a lot of other parks. There's a lot of competition. it was an existing park. So, you know, I knew it was not going to be easy. So kind of one of the things that I decided was, I can't make someone buy a four-Wheeler, Jeep, none of that. That's what they have to decide on their choice, I can provide them a place to ride. Okay, but how do, how do I increase my pie So one of my biggest things was, okay. Exposing myself to more people.
Kyle Knosp: So like an example, you know, we talk about rock crawling and you know, well that's this group of people. Okay, well how big is that group of people All right. And then you might do, you know, we'll call it Jeep Jamboree or easy stuff or whatever you want to. And I don't mean associate Jeep Jamboree with easy just, but it's a different client. Okay. and you know, they have expectations. So yeah, picking whatever model or whatever group you want to go after is very important. And what I was trying to do is figure out how I could get the biggest group possible. And kind of one of my dreams is, is I've always, respected Walt Disney. I've read a lot of his books and the way he does things and, and he's a great person for, I think of actually modeling off road parks because of Disney world.
Kyle Knosp: you know, size is a big thing. So he went out there in California and you know, built this, this park, you know, it was amusement park, but he, he learned size. He did the best he could. And everybody built around him. And then he said, well, I'm never going to have that happen again. So he went down to Florida and got all this ground for in, long story behind that. But like that's kind of where I've always modeled stuff off of. So like through the years, one of our first steps was renting units. Okay. So people not everybody can buy units and things, but they still may have an interest or they may have, you know, they want to just sample it, you know, and, and see if they're going to like it. So renting was a huge thing for us that, you know, I have everybody that has a vehicle and we, we did our best to accommodate them.
Kyle Knosp: So then what we would try to move in is rentals. And then we came to figure out, well, the big thing is, you know, you have wives and your kids, and you know, it's, it's more than just a bunch of guys sitting around a campfire a lot of times and people are getting into families and like, you know, Jeep. And a JK is totally different than what the Willie started out, you know, they're not the same model of who is buying them. And so we got into housing and things like that. So kind of our whole whole thing was to kind of, yeah, like I'm more of a tourist, more people, more creaturer features or amenities, and felt that was where kind of the industry was heading and that's kind of what we've done over the last 12 years. and, and moved into that kind of market.
Big Rich Klein: So I know that out at the Badlands that you have, there's an RV park that's, that's next door, or on the way in, but that's not something that you own or did you finally purchase that.
Kyle Knosp: We have purchased that, yeah.
Big Rich Klein: Okay. Yeah. And then, there was the building out front, which I know that you, you, you ended up with. And then did you have you put cabins or anything out at the park or did you, I know that you were interested in the hotel at one time, there was a hotel available. So, where have you gone with that
Kyle Knosp: So, so we have the Badlands and then we had the campground as you said. So, we bought the campground. I actually. So there was a dealership, there was a Polaris dealership that was at the front of our dealership. It was actually there, before the off-road bark, and then the off-road park came behind it. there was some animosity over the years between the two owners at that time. And, and long story short, you know, the economy had kind of went down a little bit and the owners of the dealership had gone through some tough times. So, we are just that, and worked with, Polaris to get that dealership up and going again. And, so that's been very good for us. we basically took a dealership from the worst dealership in the state to the highest volume dealership in the state.
Kyle Knosp: So that was pretty cool. And, and, right after that, we, we worked for, for a few years to be able to buy off the campground owner and amongst this, we were starting vacation houses. so we started in and we built several and have bought several. So you asked about the hotel. I did look at that. And one of the things that, that, I think we're all getting softer in our older age and one of the big things is convenience. so, the town I've worked really hard with the town and we have a great administration in our town and you know, I appreciate them and I think it's, it's likewise and that, and they do a lot with us, but having all those vehicles. So one of the biggest things is, as I was joking about get soft is, you know, people don't want to load up.
Kyle Knosp: so you know, once, once a vehicle is on a trailer, another 15 minutes or 20 minutes, I mean, it's not that big a deal. It might be a restaurant they like, or a hotel they like or whatever. So you kind of lose that and it loses that multi-day where, you know, you put your hunkers down and you're there and it's a vacation. So what we kind of modeled was everything that we do is trail access. So once you're here, you flip the tailgate down and you unload or do whatever you're doing. You do not have to go in the real world if you don't want to. and that's been kind of our model and what we do. and then we've worked with the town and they've been very gracious that, so they work so we can drive the UTVs in town to the restaurants. And so we just got that passed. we were really going to kind of push that real heavy this year. I mean it's about two years in the making, but, but this COVID thing is as definitely, obviously there's no restaurants open to be able to go to, you know, so that's been a struggle. But yeah, once things kind of simmer down and, and you know, life gets back to, you know, we're all somewhat normal, that's our goal. So there's that more open town feel transition,
Big Rich Klein: Excellent. Good to hear that. How did you, how did you come about with Troy Myers and getting the Badlands Because when all that happened, when it was all announced, I was like, Whoa, didn't see that one coming. I thought it was a great move for you. So how did that, how did that all work out
Kyle Knosp: So that's crazy story. It all relates back to rock crawling. so I met Troy, through rock crawling, all the different events we were out there and, and you know, we talk about the comradery and building that relationship and, and that's exactly what happened. And, I talked with him. So while we were rockcrawling, I had Paragon and we were putting events on and, and you know, he would come to the events and we, you know, go out West to events and long story short, you know, we just built a relationship and he called me up and be like, Hey, well, you know, I got a question at the park, you know, about the park. We would just build a professional relationship. He had a park, I had a park. We loved rock crawling. you know, but he was in Indiana and Pennsylvania.
Kyle Knosp: And then my saga happened back at Paragon. And, and, that was, you know, obviously tough. Went back to the real world, crazy story. I was, I was sitting on a, I was working, I was actually carrying trash to a dumpster just at the end of the day, and I get this phone call, my phone, then it's Troy Myers. He says, Hey, you're still trying to get the off road park business. I said, well yeah. And and he goes, well, I'm selling one. And I said, Troy, I don’t have that kind of money. He goes, that's not what I asked you. Yeah. And I said, get your butt out here. Let's sit down and talk. And, I would never have been able to been, I can't say the respect that I have for him and his family, because we wouldn't be able to do the things that we do if Troy didn't take a chance on me back and my family back then.
Kyle Knosp: And you know, Troy and Lisa both, you know. And so that whole thing, you know, I, I, it was a big risk and I had a good, you know, I was pull back into a, what I would call a real career and I was, you know, I could make good money at that. And I remember one of my buddies, Steve Risk, we were sitting there and I was talking to him on my phone and I was sitting on the back of a truck, kind of looking out at a corn field. We were doing a job, I was sitting there swinging my legs and we were talking and I said, man, I don't know what to do. This is a big risk. You know, moving my family and, and you know, moving her beds, it's like about 14 hours from house to house. And he said, well, let me make it real simple for you. Are you going to be happy sitting in the back of that truck swinging your legs for the rest of your life or are you going to be more happy doing it Being back in the off road industry. I said, well that's an easy choice. And he goes, well, there you go. And I, you know, and from that day forward, just never looked back and just kept pushing, pushing, pushing.
Big Rich Klein: When I moved back to California and put on the my first event put up or shut up, CALROCs I was working for a large automotive parts retailer as a manager. I remember I was there just over one year, had just put on the event and realized that's what I wanted to do. At that point I didn't like myself. I didn't like anybody. I mean I just hated life. I hated myself, I hated everybody, put that event on. I finally felt that I knew what I wanted to do. So I walked into the, into the store and that same day district manager and the loss prevention manager show up and I was like, great, you're here. Why And I'd had a run in with a customer earlier in the week, so I figured they were coming in to chastise me for that. I took somebody that was yelling and, and escorted them out of the building you might say, and told him never to come back in.
Big Rich Klein: And they, they came in and, you know, and I'm like, okay, what are you here for They go, well, we're, we're here to give you your one year pin. And I was like, really I've been here that long. And I said, you made some promises a year ago when I came to work here. And none of those promises come true. So I dug my keys out of the pocket. I sat them on the desk and I said, here's your store back. I'm leaving. I'm walking out right now, the district manager who happened to be a female. She goes, well, you can't do that. And I said, did I sign something that I don't know about And she goes, no, it's just, you know, we're paying you awfully well as a store manager. Just give us a little more time and we'll get you to where what we promised. And I said, no, it's too late. I grabbed my personal stuff and walked out the door, you know, and left them sitting there going, what Cause I, I know I didn't, I would never need them for any kind of a work reference or anything like that because I knew what I was going to do. And it was continued putting on events. Yeah. It makes a big difference.
Kyle Knosp: It is. It's crazy. And I encourage anyone to follow their dreams, you know And no matter what part of life that they're in, you know, and, and that's thing. And you know, you always hear that, all that thing about, you know, if you enjoy what you do, you never work a day in your life. Well that's not true because I've worked some hard days. I know you have. But I mean, it does. When you lay your head down at night and you feel that you're on the right track of where you're supposed to be, there's no better satisfaction than that.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. And I think that, that you'd never work another day in your life. What it means is that you've now created a lifestyle. So you may work for that lifestyle, but you're not working in the same capacity you did when you worked for somebody else. You know, you don't have somebody with their thumb on you telling you this is what you have to do, these are the hours you have to work, You know, whatever, You know, you get to make those shots, those call those shots on your own. And I think that's, I think that takes it away from the work. I mean, yeah, there's physical work and there's mental work, but it's not the same as, as having that thumb on you.
Kyle Knosp: I agree. And, and you know, part of being a leader, so we have four businesses that's here at the Badlands and they're getting, you know, pretty large for what they are. And so, you know, our staff is, has grown from, you know, three, four people. When I first started to, I think we're close to 30 and, okay. So, so some of the things that, you know, it's cool because I had a kid that started with me when he was 14 years old and my girls look at him as like a brother, you know, and he's the longest one.
Kyle Knosp: And, and just to see like him being able to buy a nice truck and a RZR and all the things that you know, and to see that transition so we've, we've hired, we're getting a lot of good talent. That's kind of what our big focus is now, is trying to find good talent. And you know, so I have, I have other people that we work with and part of our senior staff that what we look for is I give three main rules. Okay. And one of those is risk management and that's part of any business. But in some businesses it's more than others, more risk management, risk management, risk management.. But then the next part is business morals. So if you operate your business with business morals, okay, that means you're not out to screw anybody or you know, do anything negative or you know, good ethics.
Kyle Knosp: Okay. Well then that will carry through. And then family morals and ethics. So if you operate those three things in your business, I mean it's obviously you need other ingredients, but it's a great, you know, because that building, like for us, building that family, that's an important thing, you know, horsing around with people. I'm doing every job that's here, you know, I'm not better than anybody. We're a team, you know, and it's, it's that produces, so it's like you said about the environment and then how you, you know, about working in the, that's a very good point. And that's kind of like what I try to push down all the way through is, you know, so that everybody, not everybody gets to the, the, the ability to have their own business, but I want to remind to feel like it is their business and they're part of something bigger.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. If they have, if, if employees are, you know, have some kind of buy-in and are felt, you know, have the feeling that they're part of the family, it goes a long ways. It really does. You know, that's one of the things that we've lost with corporate America as it is now. You know, there's no, there's no loyalty to employees, there's no employee loyalty to the corporation, everybody's in it for a buck. And, you know, what can they get out of that situation where, you know, with the small businesses it's more like, you know, what can we do
Big Rich Klein: To help everybody, you know, that, that, okay, raise raising the tide raises the whole, you know, all the boats, you know, that kind of thing. And I, I really, I really believe that our industry, the off-road industry does that very well. You can see that by the people that, that stay in the industry and never leave. They may change their business card on who they're working for, but they always, you know, there's so many of them that just stay in the business and then eventually, you know, they figure it out and they become business owners themselves or you know, end up with a racing program or you know, something beyond, you know, and, and like with me, I've, I've tried to build a full circle, you know, we do the events now, we have the magazine and now the podcast and it's, it's all about how we can serve our community better.
Big Rich Klein: You know, the podcast is about bringing in the history to people, you know, those JK owners have no idea what you and Charlie went through back in the early two thousands. They have no idea. Yeah, no. They have no idea what, what it was like to go on the Rubicon and not see another vehicle for four or five days over a long weekend. Yeah. You know, and it's just amazing when we find those people to be able to, to help teach them what it's all about. You know, whether it's trail etiquette or land use issues. But you know, when they get started, everybody, you know, everybody goes, Oh, those newbies, they don't know what they're doing. And the same thing with like UTV drivers, you know, we see it out here, you know, in Moab and other places where, you know, the people that that have moved from Jeeps to UTVs have gone, you know, they, they are even frustrated with the new UTV owners because they just go anywhere.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. You know, they, they feel, Oh, I got a vehicle, I can go off road. And they go everywhere. You know, they don't stick to the trails in the West especially, or even some of the parks here in Texas. It's very important that, you know, people follow those etiquettes and those rules. Otherwise, you know, we end up losing, losing more. Like here, there's so many parks that the UTVs are just shut out. You know, the two parks here in Texas that I'm at in Mason, they don't allow UTVs quads or motorcycles. It's only Jeeps or trucks, you know, things like that. Or buggies. But no, no. UTVs
Kyle Knosp: And it is a shame. Like, no, I don't know that I could pinpoint, you know, the reasoning and, and why people are that way. But like I had a kid who, I mean obviously the generations are different, you know, and you know what your, your parents and forefathers and mine and all that, you know what all of it, they're all different, you know, through the years and, and you know, even within years they're different. But like I crazy story, this just as about two weekends ago, you know, I have this, so we follow like, you know, you’re not allowed to ride double on a four Wheeler, you have to have a Helmet on. So I come across this kid who's got a girl on the back of his four Wheeler, no helmet and I’m like, and I've got a RZR that says park staff in like huge letters.
Kyle Knosp: Like, there's no, I don't know who you are. And I'm telling this, I come up beside him and tell him to stop and the kid keeps going and running from me and I'm like, what are you doing And he goes, why didn't know who you are I'm like, really And it's funny because he drove back, got the woman off the back of his vehiclel. I'm like, well, if I, you couldn't hear me. How did you know exactly what you were doing wrong It's like preprogrammed and into him to run and like, It just, it makes such a, it hurts our industry so bad when that, that mentality is I almost bred into groups, into user groups and yet
Big Rich Klein: it is. Yeah. And I think it, I think it is a generational thing and I don't know where we, where we lost that. You know, there's, there's a lot of disrespect nowadays, especially for the younger, the younger generations that are, you know, the ones younger than us, they, they don't look at older people like me now as having some authority.
Kyle Knosp: So if you tell somebody, Hey, you know, you're doing something wrong, knock that off. You know, they, they either tell you to, you know, take a flying leap or they want to fight or something. Yeah. Amazing that we've raised so many of the generations below us to, to be disrespectful. You know, you see it everywhere in society, not just
Kyle Knosp: you're right. It's a shame. And like I look back and you know, all the way back when I was 16 you know, the, the part of the Jeeping, that I always respect, and I don't mean to specify Jeep, but that's just what I did. And you know, that wheeling group, you had people that had been in it that would teach you the way, and we'll call it the do's and don'ts. You know, it's, and you know, you took, you took a stock Jeep, a reasonably stock Jeep, you just stop.
Kyle Knosp: You, you almost had to listen to people because it was, you learn how to drive the vehicle was so less capable, you know, and now you know, like you've got, so you take like a Rubicon, it's got lockers front and back and forth. I mean we used to have to build that. Now you can have a user that's just that vehicle it out, drives them, you know, at the beginning, you know, as far as the beginner and it gets, gets them in places and, and without the infrastructure that like the kind of backbone of the morals, the do's and don'ts
Big Rich Klein: And then you take a UTV, I mean those things are ridiculous. Like I look at the stuff that even my daughters and stuff we're climbing, you know, it's crazy and like you probably remember it like and I would say the evolution of wheel and when we got into rock buggies and you know, you know, all this stuff, the stuff we had to do to get a thrill I'll call it was you know, climbing and vertical walls and dropping off a 15 foot. I mean the level had just progress. And then like I'll speak personally, like we get a stock Jeep and we were like having as much fun as like a complete rock crawler cause you can't do all this stuff. But you know, like kind of the fun of that. Like you look it up or UTV now they're just so capable so fast.
Big Rich Klein: I mean they can do anything almost go anywhere more than normal vehicle. And now you put someone who simply doesn't know any better. It does. It's not always the best thing for the sport.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah, I agree. I think the parks here, what they've decided, why they've decided not to have UTVs and quads is cause the jeepers will the guys normally in Jeeps or Toyota pickups or buggies will follow the signs and say, okay, this is where you start the trail. This is where the trail ends. And if they do meet each other, somebody coming the other way, nobody's going more than a crawl. Yeah. The UTVs, you know, they're fast. You know. And that's part of that, that whole lifestyle, the UTVs is it people are, you know, whipping around corners and who's coming around the corner the other way. Whipping around. Yeah. You know, and, and you know, at least with the UTV you have cages and as long as long as they're actually wearing their harnesses like they're supposed to, and hopefully have a helmet on there.
Big Rich Klein: If they hit another one, they're not, nobody's going to lose their life. But that's happened. I mean, we lost Pistol Pete down in Mexico got hit out in the sand dunes by a guy and they had their show, they had all their harnesses on in Pistol’s fourseater. The other guy did not and he got ejected, but you know, he punched the door right where, where Pistol was at. You know, it didn't matter if he had a belt or helmet or a Hans device on or anything, and 60 miles into 60 miles an hour into the side of a UTV. Not a good thing,
Kyle Knosp: you know And, and it's just like, and the other thing is, is we all in East coast, wheel in Texas, you know, out West, they're all different. And like, so I took, my family, went out to Glamis for the first time and I rented a four seat Can-Am turbo side by side, and like I thank God that I rented and didn't have my own stuff out there because everything that I wheel here and like what I'm used to, it was close enough to Glamis to get any in deep trouble.
Kyle Knosp: And like, I know I'd be wadding it up in about 15 minutes out there if I hadn't rented and had somebody say, don't do this, don't do this and don't do this. and that comes back to like, where are guidances and having those, do’s and don’ts
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. Glamis is huge. There's no fake sand dunes out there. I've had some close calls out there.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah. And like the thing that like for me was the whoops. Like, you know, we've been in Johnson Valley and you see whoops and you're, you know, you're hammering down, you don't think about like the wind make it a like a ramp and a 15 foot drop on the other side. Like What'd you do there Yes.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. There's a technique to drive in sand dunes. Shelley and I staff the Rebelle Rally and we always end every year. We end in Glamis with a day, day and a half of competition in Glamis. And then before that they'll, they'll typically take the girls through a couple of smaller sets of sand dunes and then all of a sudden you get to Glamis and it's just miles upon miles of just quarter mile almost seems like a half a mile tall sand dune that's, you know, undercut, you know, it's like how does that happen in sand Yeah. Well it's almost like a snow cornice if you don't know how to drive the sand dunes stay out of the big stuff, you know I mean,
Kyle Knosp: What's the big Hill out there Cadillac.
Big Rich Klein: Cadillac. Yep.
Kyle Knosp: So I remember we were out.
Big Rich Klein: Oldsmobile, Cadillac is the Rubicon.
Kyle Knosp: Gotcha. Gotcha. And we were out there and we were looking for that and obviously found it. And I remember looking back at camp, did you see, you pretty much see camp, but you can't get there a straight line. It's constant just, and it's like, Holy moly, it's just so, so different and it's unique and cool.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. One of the things with the Rebelle is at the end of the day, competition day as the girls have all gone through and done the checkpoints, they're supposed to do an order and we start to clear them. One of my jobs is always to go out and pick up the checkpoints to get to some of those checkpoints. All I have is a dot on it GPS screen. It's like, okay, we'll start straight toward it and then all of a sudden you're backtracking and trying to go to the left, trying to go to the right, trying to figure out, you know, where round or through that next ball drop into a witch's eye. And then like, okay, do I have the horsepower to get out You know, and that's always, that's always exciting. I enjoy it much more than Shelly does.
Big Rich Klein: She's getting better. This last year I bought a Raptor, a 2012 Raptor and we took that on the Rebelle instead of my Jeep. We ended up at the sand dunes again and now I actually have something that has power and comfort and is built for, you know, cause that, that six cylinder or six cylinder straight, six four liter in the Cherokee does not even come close over two times the horsepower in the Raptor and gearing and everything else. And I started to point it to one of the sand dunes because I knew what I needed was on the other side and I saw this little Ridge between two pockets and I'm going to shoot that Ridge. And she was like, no, you don't. You know, she was, she was convinced I was trying to kill her. So we took an extra 20 minutes and drove all the way around the sand dune to go get the, the checkpoint. But I love the sand dunes. as much as I do the rock trails and probably for my style of wheeling and I'm not a hardcore, beat your stuff up. I like to go on scenic trips or like on the Rubicon, you know, where I've got, where I can camp out and enjoy a river or something like that. But the sand dunes is that time to, you know, to open it up and, and haul the mail. But, you got to do it smart and the Raptor sounds cool doing it.
Big Rich Klein: Sure. Does that sound especially the, the six twos, the, you know, the twin turbo, new generation, smaller motors, you know, they make, they may have a top speed that that rivals the six too, but there's nothing, there's no replacement for displacement. Right
Kyle Knosp: Yeah, they're right. Yeah, for sure.
Big Rich Klein: It's too much fun. So what's, what are the plans that you have for the future Is there anything works in the park to expand or, you know, any other, and amenities that you're going to add or anything that's down the road that iss on the waiting list that you want to let people know
Kyle Knosp: so right now we're in a, we're always trying to be up to something, you know, and, and try innovation is the big thing. so right now what we're doing is we're adding into our campground. we're putting in, cause the motor homes are getting bigger and longer, all that kind of stuff. so we're adding, what's a 28 new 50 amp sites and to accommodate that. that's one of our big things that we're working on here this year. a lot of, we did just buy another, hundred and 62 acres. so we're doing some different things with that. we do like, so we don't have a lot of acreage. I mean, we're not like a park that's got, you know, 50,000 acres or nothing like that. So we try to utilize our space is a lot different. It's, it's not like designated trails.
Kyle Knosp: It's like we were talking about, it's more like a spiderweb, as you're familiar with, we'll get a lot of mileage out of smaller areas. So, part of what we've done is we've bought some more property and we're trying to basically make it where we can section offset areas. So I'm one of the big events that we're trying to them different types of events that are kind of related. so one of the cool ones, it's called the Axialfest which is like an RC car event and they do amount of out West out California is one of the biggest ones. So we got one of those scheduled for this year. So a lot of our customers already liked doing that stuff. And then you got bringing a different user group and then with the extra space, we bought some farm fields around us so that we can have parking and infrastructure for those kinds of events. so those are the kinds of things that we're really trying to head towards.
Big Rich Klein: Did you pick up that, that field that was right off of the park or right off of the RV section
Kyle Knosp: Yes. We just got that.
Big Rich Klein: Awesome. Yeah, that's great.
Kyle Knosp: So that's a 30 acres of just grant. We're so used to be a field obviously, but it's all grass now or we're grassing it, and like we use it for remote parking and then, yeah, so like rock crawling stuff. Hopefully we get back into that, but like instead of having such big distances between our infrastructure now we have closer areas to do it.
Big Rich Klein: Excellent. Glad to hear that. We may have to revisit you.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah. Yeah. I would love having it. It's been, it's been awesome through the years as we said. I mean definitely a blast.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah. Cause that was always, it's always been hard to try to set up the gate and control people and park people and everything and get people out there for events. But now that you have that, that field out there. Yeah, that's, that's handy. That's awesome. Thank you. Anything else that you want to touch on Any, any favorite story that you have from back in the days of rock crawling where, whether it's like the, I know you already mentioned tiny, but you know, is there one of those, I don't know if you heard Charlie's interview. Okay. Well Charlie's interview aired last week and this week it's Ranch. Pratt is going to air on Thursday. And Charlie, you know, Charlie talks, you know, a hundred miles an hour. And a couple of people have messaged me and said, did Charlie even breathe for that hour and a half I mean, he just went, but he had story after story after story. Is there anything that stands out in your mind Say something about Charlie even. Yeah.
Kyle Knosp: So I've got some doozies I gave you. Yes. I mean, now you want a five, 10, 20 stories.
Big Rich Klein: Just give me a couple really good ones.
Kyle Knosp: May you know one Walker Evans, I remember we were at Super Crawl. Charlie and I were actually on the course and they had the Matterhorn and it was just, like a straight up and down. Everybody was rolling and, and getting hurt and all kinds of stuff. So we're in the course beside it, Walker Evans backs up and stops, like in our course backs up into the course and hits it and full Walker Evans style is awesome. Like to see like that moment and the moon buggy and just like, that was one of those I will never ever forget. It's just so cool. I remember back at the, the, well, so I'll switch back to the Badlands. it was one of the pro rock events and it was at Troy Myers. He had bought a property he had later built the house on and it was totally like almost Virgin.
Kyle Knosp: I mean he had wheeled there under some rocks and stuff, but there was this guy, Ryan Hamilton that he used to rock crawl and just, his thing was he was either going to make it or break it and kind of Chris Durham style and just smoke in the tires and launches the thing out, flipped it upside down in the water. I mean it was crazy, like it's undone, you know, everything had everything saved and all that. But just a wild moment. And I remember EROC, Chris Durham just going crazy. He had that a scrambler aluminum body stretching, which Charlie actually wound up with years later. Just just smoking the tires and like, you know, Chris Durham or your little, you know, and just watching it bounce out, roll over and get back on its tires. Like moments like that were just awesome. And like, I remember like getting in and we were out at SuperCrawl one time.
Kyle Knosp: I'll get two quick Charlie stories. And there was this like, yeah, I think it was, it was New. Mexico was like this Canyon. Charlie went out, had a pretty violent roll over, blew a tire. It's flat and there's a video of it and he shoots it. Basically I get to his whereabouts and got himself together with a flat tire. And this is an obstacle that almost nobody was making. Just launches up there with a flat tire. Makes it so that was awesome. And the like, think of like Charlie evolved in over the years. I remember when I had one of the first times I met with him, it was an event where, you know, everybody likes to think they're hardcore and all that kind of stuff. And this guy, I won't even say his name had made this trail that nobody can do.
Kyle Knosp: Right. And it was Charlie and a bunch of guys that he had from New York and this and that. Well, they did this guy's trail in like half the time he, he expected, we never even finished the trail. And this was back at Paragon. So I was there and I was actually with Charlie with a chain saw in front of his Jeep finishing the trail with stuff no one had ever made. and he, you know, he was the first one on and, and he had this, so that was kind of the transition in like the top truck challenge. he had this like big, CJ six yellow and 44’s and it was like a monster trick, but it had four wheel steering and he was wheeled at like, I mean, what a rock crawler is now. That was crazy. Those things I just, I love, just love. And Troy Myers, I remember this was back at NEUROC was one of my last seasons of NEUROCK or yeah, I think it was one of our last events. And Troy had a moon buggy and it was, he, I think it was between, it was either him, Shoup or Charlie. They're all top. And there was this just crazy obstacle that no one had made was a bonus line and he would have won. He backed up and just tried to launch Dukes of Hazzard style it and wound up wadding up his Jeep, his moon buggy. And he was like, Hey, I was gone for the win just like so many times. Like that. Just love that stuff.
Big Rich Klein: Yeah, those are awesome. Thank you for sharing those. I want to say thank you so much for coming on with us. I'll let you know when we're going to air this during this COVID thing. I'm trying to get as many of these in the can as I can and then get them edited and then air them once a week will good things there. But Kyle, thank you for over the years being such a good friend and, and be accommodating to our events. I'll need to come and revisit you and see what we can do. For one thing, I miss that really nice steakhouse.
Kyle Knosp: Yeah. Beef House or whatever it is. Yeah. The rolls!
Kyle Knosp: And I just want to say thank you. you know, it's an honor to even being asked to do something like this. So the pleasure is all mine and, and, likewise, I appreciate all the years of friendship and, and, adventures.
Big Rich Klein: Alright, well you take care. Say hello to everybody out there for me and, stay safe and stay healthy.
Kyle Knosp: Thank you buddy. You too. Talk to you soon.
Big Rich Klein: If you enjoy these podcasts, please give us a rating, share some feedback with us via Facebook or Instagram, and share our link among your friends who might be likeminded. Well, that brings this episode to an end hope You enjoyed it. We'll catch you next week with Conversations with Big Rich. Thank you very much.