The Godfather of competitive Rockcrawling, Phil Howell, on Episode 33

The Godfather of competitive rockcrawling, the man behind the idea, Phil Howell, shares life on the road as an award-winning DJ, a magazine editor, and the leader of the band.  Phil’s stories showcase a piece of Americana that few rarely see.  Go back in time with us as this whole crazy off-road world, as we know it today, was just getting started.

6:00 – A description of Baja in the early days, on a motorcycle

8:36 – She wasn’t impressed 

14:50 – racing a 1972 Opel at SCCA

23:15 – draft #11, I picked Air Force, because the Air Force had girls

25:50 – always take care of your NCO’s

29:24 – quitting the band

37:14 – getting tackled by Reagan’s security team

43:09 – I’m not telling them about the trails

50:36 – The early days of EJS and Red Rock 4Wheelers

57:59 – But I flunked English, twice!

1:08:02 – The twin YJ’s get confiscated?

1:12:37 – the beginning of competitive rockcrawling

1:21:08 – paying for the builds

1:34:16 – my cockiness got me to Baja  

Mad respect for this legend in our sport, if we could all be so lucky to have as many life experiences.

We want to thank our sponsors Maxxis Tires and 4Low Magazine.

www.maxxis.com

www.4lowmagazine.com 

Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

Transcript

Welcome to the Big Rich show. This podcast will focus on conversations with friends and acquaintances within the four-wheel drive industry. Many of the people that I will be interviewing, you may know the name. You may know some of the history, but let's get in depth with these people and find out what truly makes them a four-wheel drive enthusiast. So now's the time to sit back, grab a cold one and enjoy our conversation. 

Maxxis Advertisment: Whether you're crawling the red rocks of Moab or hauling your toys to the trail. Maxxis has the tires you can trust for performance and durability, four wheels or two Maxxis tires are the choice of champions, because they know that whether for work or play, for fun or competition, Maxxis tires deliver. Choose Maxxis tread victoriously. 

Big Rich Klein: Why should you read 4low magazine Because 4low magazine is about your lifestyle. The four wheel drive adventure lifestyle that we all enjoy. Rock crawling, trail riding, event coverage, vehicle builds, and do it yourself tech all in a beautifully presented package. You won't find 4low on the new stand rack. So subscribe today and have it delivered to you on this week's episode of Conversations with Big Rich, we will be talking with Phil Howell.

Big Rich Klein: Phil has led a very full life with jobs or careers that span a long list from record DJ, celebrity photographer, fighter pilot, Jeep tour operator, magazine editor, and to being the true godfather of competitive rock crawling. Let's talk to Phil about his very interesting life. Today. We have Phil Howell, Phil I'd like you to share with us your life story. I know that there's a lot of things behind the scenes that you've done that, especially any of the newer people that are into off-road have no idea about. 

Big Rich Klein: And some of us guys that have been around since the eighties don't know the whole story. So Phil, we're asking you the whole story, let us have it, you know, where did you, where did you grow up at 

Phil Howell: Okay. I was born in Upland, California, and then, right after I was born, my parents moved to red Hill and Cucamonga, which is now Rancho Cucamonga, but it wasn't fancy when I grow up there. And there was like, I can't remember the altitude was the same as the population. Oh, it was 1200 feet above sea level. And I had 1200 people on the sign that the California sign as you drove into the city limits. But when I grew up there, it was orange groves and vineyards. I mean, that was the major industry. There was agriculture. And even though we only lived 45 minutes out of LA, we were over the Hill in the inland empire and it was like a world away, from Los Angeles, 

Phil Howell: Although we still use the freeways to get everywhere. But, but anyway, so I grew up there. It was really a lot of fun. I liked to go exploring. I was in boy Scouts. We used to hike. They were right at the foot of the San Gabriel mountains. So hiked up to all the peaks. So I used to go on 50 mile hikes in the boy Scouts up on the John Muir trail every summer. And that was a blast. And I think that's what started me getting interested in exploring. I just love to go out where there weren't that many people or where people had been, but weren't any more. I loved history. And in high school I used to go, I spent all week on my free time. I'd go in the library and the school had a pretty good library and they had guidebooks like Russ Letterbrands California byways, and, which was, printed by AAA, you know,the automobile club. 

Phil Howell: And he talked about not only paved roads, but dirt roads and ghost towns. And, and I would read the desert magazine of course, and read all kinds of stuff about ghost towns. And then on the weekend, go out and explore. My dad had brought home a 1966, Yamaha trail master 80, which in those days there weren't anything. The mini bikes were mini bikes, you know, with a Briggs and Stratton motor on them. No suspension, no suspension had a tube frame and a Briggs and Stratton, but I never had one of those. And I'd look at my friends that did, would just envy. My dad brought home a Yamaha trail, master 80 brand new, and it was a full size motorcycle. And so I learned to ride on that and, probably 67 68, we got, I got a C L 77 Honda three Oh five scrambler, which nowadays we look at that it'd be laughable to take off road. 

Phil Howell: But all I did was pull a muffler off the twin pipes, which were high because it was a scrambler. You know, the scrambler had been used though in the Baja, Baja one thousand in the NORRA, one of the very first races that the scrambler was used and won, I don't remember which year, but anyway, rode that then kept getting into it. My friend, a guy named Sean packer, his parents started a business called allied motorcycle salvage, and they bought all these old bikes. And then I would work for them alongside Sean we'd strip these insurance wrecks for parts. I made a little money there and was able to buy a Bultaco. And first I had an old Camppara, which no one knows about because it was kind of just an obscure Spanish, nothing. And then, and I got a Matador which had won the international six day trials and not my bike, but that model, and then got a Persang and we'd ride these things down the Baja. 

Phil Howell: We we'd go down to the pavement, ended at San Felipe Bay and we take off and head down to Gonzaga Bay. And there was nothing along that coast, along that Gulf coast. I mean, now I guess I haven't been down there. Well since 92, but there was now I hear it's just houses, Americans and others have vacation homes. There was nothing. And you hit Puertocitos, had a little, little cantina and hot Springs, and then you'd go up through the seven sisters. If you've been down there over the mountains, down into Gonzaga Bay, Oh, Alfonsinas, was down there, but that was a blast. And we used to ride the motorcycles down there. At least every summer we'd go on a two-week trip. I go down there, but I was really into motorcycles, but then I got my license and I decided

Phil Howell: I needed a vehicle. My dad had an old 1961 Chevy. Well, it wasn't that old then, but 1961 Chevy Apache 20, two-wheel drive pickup with a six cylinder. And it had been a shop truck. So it didn't run. He was going to just get rid of it. And I go, dad, I was 15 and I go, dad, could I buy your truck from you And then I'll build it over my 15th year. And when I get my license at 16, I'll have a vehicle. He goes, yeah. So he sold it to me. I proceeded to build this truck back and I, it had the six cylinder. I found an old three 48 Chevy V8 would try power with the three carbs on it. Now three 48 was a smaller same block, but a smaller version of the four Oh nine. You know, she's real fine. 

Phil Howell: My four Oh nine. Oh yes. She was real great. My three 48, but I stuck that thing. And I didn't know anything about vehicle work. I mean, I really didn't know what I was getting into. And it took me most of that year. And I finally got it in and I had had three on the tree and the shifting forks were worn out. It was right on the firewall where they're shifting for work. So I remember going on one of my very first dates in my truck. I was so proud. We get on Euclid Avenue, which is a four lane with a great big center divider. And Foothill switch was highway 66, which was another four lane I'm turning left. I get diagonally in the middle of it. And the shifting forks freeze up. it had a little bushings. It wore out in it. 

Phil Howell: And if they got out of alignment, it freeze up. So we're stopped in the middle, blocking all directions. I had to get out. I opened the hood. I knew what the problem was. I yank up on the forks and get, get it to shift, get back in and we'd go down. So I turned to the girl that I was with. I said, so what do you want to do She goes, go home. I had grease on my hands and the old truck. So that was my first experience with girls and trucks. But, but I had this two wheel drive. And as I said, I'd go and I'd explore. I'd explore magazines and, and books about where to go exploring. So now this is a two wheel drive and I'd be out in the desert. Well, what I did was I bought snow chains and I put them on the rear drive wheels of this truck and believe it or not, that work, I'd get through deep sand. And I drive till I got stuck and then I dig it out, jacket up, but put the chains on it. And then off, I'd go again with the chains.

Phil Howell: Pretty Low rent. Then I got a Jeep, a 1972, CJ five. It had a three Oh four in it. And, boy, I thought that thing was cool. And those, those Jeeps weren't the best. You know, I mean, it was pretty nice to have a Jeep, but didn't have a fuse block, it had all Inline fuses, the brake lines were routed in the front, underneath the grill and it had a single body Mount in the front. And so if you hit a bump wrong, the body would flex onto this hard steel brake line and break it. And so you lose your brakes. The clutch had a rod. You may know about the CJ clutch rod. When it wore it drop out, you'd be up. I've had a number of these Jeeps and this one, it didn't do it. Cause it was still fairly new. It was a used Jeep, but it was fairly new. 

Phil Howell: It was still 1972. And but I, I had, I was a musician. I played play the stupid clarinet from the time I was in second grade. I hated it. Nobody cool played a clarinet. I wanted to play a guitar, but they made me do it. And they made me practice every day. Well they, my dad made me practice every day for an hour, by the time I was in high school, I got pretty good and I got to switch to saxophone. So I didn't out that. There's a cool instrument. Yeah. I played E-flat Alto. I played tenor. I was in Cal state honor band for, I don't know, four years and all Southern California honor band for three years. And in those, I always played something different. I played contra bass, clarinet Alto clarinet. The only thing I never quite got was the flute. I was never good at playing a flute that, Oh well, but anyway, so I, I had music scholarships too, San Diego state and USC university of Southern California, but they were too close to home and I wanted to get out. 

Phil Howell: And I'm a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, Mormons, you know, and BYU in Provo. I had no scholarship to BYU, but my parents were always worried about my rebellious nature. I wasn't that bad, but I don't know. I was kind of rebellious. They thought it was great. I would rather go to a church school up North. Well, BYU didn't accept me because my grades were too low. I, I, I found out about fifth grade that I didn't have to try at all to get C's. So I quit trying. And if you're younger and watching this, don't do that or regret it anyway. so I, my grades weren't high enough and they didn't care about my music. So my Bishop of my ward in our church and my dad went up to Provo and talk to Dallin Oaks who was the president of the, of the college and talked him into interviewing me. 

Phil Howell: So then they had me come up and I interviewed with him and he said, fine, you're in. So I got in, I went to BYU. Well now from Southern Cal to Provo is what 600 miles. I don't know. I think I drove about 600 miles, maybe less, but it was a long ways. 600 miles and a whole different world. Yes. Highway 91. And you were here, you lived here highway 91 was the highway. There was a stretch of freeway from st. George to summit, right past Cedar. Then it turned into two lane all the way to Beaver. And then you had a little stretch from Beaver to Clear`field. And then it was two lane all the way up Santaquin, which is South of Provo. And you went through all these little towns you had gotten with semis in front of you. You know, it was something. 

Phil Howell: And I had a CJ with a crappy, soft top and a V8 with gas. It was way expensive. It was 32 cents a gallon, but you know what I couldn't figure I was gone. Well, I couldn't, I afford to buy gas when gas was 32 and I have it on inflation calculator and I looked it up and 32 cents. Then it was like almost $3 as a gallon today. So no wonder I couldn't afford it. And it was uncomfortable, it didn't go fast. so I traded it in on a 1972 Opel, manta rally, a car and I put CBA driving lights on it. And it was orange with a black hood. And I got my SCCA competition permit. I joined the sports car club at BYU and I got my SCCA competition permit and race that car and showroom stock, which was an SCCA. it they'd started that in late 71, early 72. 

Phil Howell: And what you did was you brought your car, you had a roll cage in it and a fire extinguisher. That's all you had to have. You couldn't go out, you could go down one size in tire if you wanted to improve your gear ratio. But I didn't, I just, I mean, I didn't have the money anyway, but I raced this thing and I, wasn't a very good driver and I'd win,I'd win, win, and win. And so what everybody else who had Opal mantas, the car was so good and so neutral. That didn't much matter who was behind the wheel. It just, it worked. And so they disqualified the car. They finally said that that car could no longer be racing in showroom stock. If you do a search for not for Opel manta and SCCA, you'll see the story about how it was too competitive. 

Phil Howell: So they knocked it out of the class, other cars in the class where the Datsun, five tens. It was before that. Oh, five, 10. Yeah, yeah. You're right. Yeah. Five, 10 BMW, 2002's and then, Volkswagen something. And it was those kinds of cars, the little, little compact car. I love that thing. And I drive it back and forth and I did not drive in snow. And so I finally got snow tires on the rear and I would put all my books in the trunk. And after that, I was able to go, I'd come home one weekend, at least a month, maybe two from Utah to California. I'd come home on Friday night after going out on a date, I'd get home Saturday morning. I drove through the night, be there the weekend. And I go home Sunday night and get there Monday morning in time for school. 

Phil Howell: I don't know how I stayed awake, but I did. So anyway, I had that car. And then when they disqualified it, I was getting the urge to go out, go four wheeling again. Anyway, I traded that car in on a Toyota Hilux, our high Lux. We like to call it here, pick up. Now they didn't make a four wheel drive then. So once again, here I am with the snow chains on the back, exploring around and that truck, I kept it for quite a while, especially for me before I got rid of it, I would have to take a paper plate, take the air, filter off. I had a hole poked in the paper plate and I'd stick it over the carb and then start the truck. And it acted as a choke. Then I pull it off. And my current wife said, I will never go out with you again, if you bring that truck. 

Phil Howell: So it was kind of beat by the time I finished. I bought then after that I bought another a, I bought a 74 CJ five and then drove out a while and sold that bought a 75 CJ five by now it's 1978. I bought a full-size Oh, I had found a Mustang, a 69 Mustang convertible and an old lady in a trailer park owned it. And it had 30,000 original miles at a three 51 Cleveland in it from the factory. It had air conditioning, which was also strange for a convertible. I bought that, owned it like three weeks and said, what am I doing with a car And, I talked to Brian to chewing Brian's on. He was one of the very first, he was the mover, one of the movers and shakers who started the Baja 1000 and famous racer. And then he had an accident and hurt his head, and he kind of quit. 

Phil Howell: Well, he did quit racing, although he stayed in our world. In fact, he's the guy who designed the Jeep scrambler. His idea was what brought the scrambler to fruition. But anyway, Brian owned a big Jeep dealership in Southern Cal called to chew a Jeep, believe it or not. Anyway. So I was talking to Brian about this Mustang and that I was stupid. Again, I want to get another four wheel drive. And he says, well, why don't you trade me that Mustang for a new full-size, you know, grand Cherokee Chief that he had sitting there, a brand new one in 1978, it was white had that Indian blanket seating in it. I mean, this thing was awesome. Had the wide track, Dana 44's came with a, probably a power power. what do they call those The power lock, you know, limited slip in the back Dana's whatever it was or it came with that. 

Phil Howell: I go, yeah, I'll trade ya. So I traded him and own that for a year and I really liked it. And I still kick myself course now to be rusted away to nothing. But I, I looked back, you know, you have those cars that you wish you didn't get rid of. Oh yeah. Well, I had a three 60 and AMC three 60 that I think put out probably 140 horsepower, but, but it was great. I love that full-size Jeep. And then I would go out exploring now I'm back in California now. And, working what happened was my dad. There's a number of side stories. You want to hear any of them here And of course my dad owned a tool and die business that became a mold making business. And he made all of the, the injection molds and dyes for general electric iron division, which used to be in Ontario, California. 

Phil Howell: And dad always wanted me to come in with him in the business. Well, my dad and I had a Rocky relationship in my teenage years, dad was the same personality as me. So we butted heads. Yup. Yeah. And I hated, I hated working there, but he put me through the mold makers apprentice program. So every summer, and sometimes during school, in my junior high and high school years, I was apprenticing at the shop. In fact, you know, that little button, if you've seen it on the black and Decker irons that say up for steam. Yeah. I, that was my apprentice project. I had to design the button, draw the blueprints and build the mold, the very first mold with a cavity cavities in it. And, that was mine. And I still, once in a while, I'll see an iron for sale at home Depot or Lowe's or something. 

Phil Howell: And it'll have my little buttons still on there. GE of course took it and took the blueprints and built many more molds and then sold it to black and Decker who then took it overseas. But, anyway, I was doing that and you know, the mighty vac, the mighty vac brake bleeder, the little, yeah, that was a guy named Ted newer design that Ted worked for my dad. And he designed this thing on his own time. And of course it immediately took off and Ted got big, fast, and he opened his own shop over on Archibald Avenue in Cucamonga. And he offered to my dad cause he knew how much I hated. There he goes, I'll take your son, let him finish his apprenticeship. You know, he can be a mold maker. And so dad asked if I wanted to. No, cause I wanted out of the whole thing. 

Phil Howell: Plus by then I was going to college too. And I, I had other plans now I got drafted in 1972. I got my letter, there were taken the first hundred, you know, you received a number, right. And they're taking the first hundred and my number was 11. Oh. So I get this letter greetings report to your nearest recruiter. So I went to the ROTC building and the college and we had air force and army and air force had these girls that were really pretty they're called angel flight. You know, I go, I want there. So I signed up for ROTC and because I also was interested in flying kind of like everything and saying, I already knew how to fly. I had gotten a private pilot's license earlier and a little, nothing airplanes, and I never had enough money to fly. So, but I knew how. 

Phil Howell: And so I thought air force was a good fit. I went through college, I majored in communications and broadcasting. I originally wanted to be a forest ranger, but that was when the beginning of the green movement really got going. And it seemed like the USDA forest service was kind of the, one of the epicenters of keep us off the land, you know, protect the forest from the evil people. And I didn't want to be one of those guys. So I was playing in a band and to help make money playing saxophone, top 40 band, and we'd have gigs on the weekends. And, I would, do my air force thing, do the college thing barely. I mean, once again, barely eeked through. I flunked English, by the way, every time I graduate, this is 1976. Okay. Vietnam is now over. Everybody hates the military including Congress. 

Phil Howell: So there's hardly any funding now for pilots or anything. And me being me with my mouth made lots of friends in the command structure, ROTC, which means I had none. They really didn't like me, which is not their fault. Believe me all my life. I've had to have never learned to have a, put a break on the mouth. But, but anyway, my dad always said, he'd been in the Navy in world war II. And he always said, take care of your NCO. They're the guys who were running the place. And so whenever, you know, Utah had 3.2 beer and at BYU, the ROTC detachment, the officers were the professors there, the aerospace officers. And they were all members of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. I guess that's the air force thought it was good to assign them. But at the NCO's that was just there. 

Phil Howell: It was just their assignment and they weren't Mormon at all. So whenever I'd go home to California, I'd bring back. Even though I didn't drink it, I'd bring back real beer to 12 packs, whatever cases, you know, I, for the NCOs well, when it came time for assignments, when we graduated, I was the only one in the whole detachment that got orders to go to flight school. None. Yeah. And I think that was because the, I took care of the sergeants there. They were good guys, but anyway, so I went to Williams air force base in Arizona and which is now gone, it's you know, decommissioned and, but went there for pilot training and halfway through in those days, they'd see how you did. And then you got to choose. If you were in about the top quarter of the class, you got to choose where your training was going to go, you know, and I was there. 

Phil Howell: And so they said you could choose rotary wing helicopters, transports, or bombers or fighters. Well, I wanted fighters. Heck of course not gonna fly one of those other things afterwards. I kinda think back on that though, would have been nice to learn how to fly a big jet or helicopters. I could have used it later. So I went to fighters and finished up, well, now it's 1977 in the air force is re well, none of the branches are getting funding and they came up with a furlough system, for, especially for lieutenants, but there were too many of us and too many pilots. So they said, if you, I had a six year commitment and after, after, being commissioned and they said, if you want to get out, go inactive reserve. We'll let you do that. And you won't have to be in the air. 

Phil Howell: I mean, you'll be in the Air Force. I still have my commission, but you don't have to participate, be active. Well, I wanted to fly, but I could see that even that they were limiting us, you know, fuel and hours, unless they needed you to do it. You had a hard time getting hours. And I could see the writing on the wall. So I said, okay, I'll take this furlough. So I got out when I have a degree in broadcasting. So I become a DJ at a radio station and playing in the band too. Again, while I'm CNM, we're playing in nightclubs now in band and we're splitting our money. There were eight people in the band and I'm going, you know, this disco thing is gone. Now it's coming up Saturday night fever wasn't out yet, but disco is hot. And I go on, I know how to be a DJ. 

Phil Howell: Why am I splitting eight ways When I could be the guy I could be working all by myself. So I was still working at the radio station, but I quit the band, bought DJ equipment and started doing dances and parties. And didn't know how to mix, you know, beat mix where one's gone and the next one comes in and you can't even tell, I was just a DJ, Hey, y'all right now, we're going to, you know, it was stupid. I look back now and cringe, but I didn't know any better. So I was this DJ and then I got a job at a disco and in Provo, Utah, and, the other DJ was from New York and he knew how to beat mix. And he goes, Hey man, this talk and isn't where it's at. And he taught me a couple of songs and just, I mean, just showing me what to do. 

Phil Howell: And then he quit. And so I perfected doing that. And and then the mobile stuff, just, I sold the equipment. Cause now I was working at clubs, clubs paid way better. And it was, it was steady. I moved at California and moved back to California and started working in some clubs, worked in one in Ontario, California, and then got a better job. Do you remember the drag racer named gas Rhonda Yes. Yeah, he was, he owned a club in West Covina, California. He had started this really great club and he hired me and I worked there and I got into Southern California DJ association in Hollywood. And you've got all your records. They gave you records every week. I mean, you didn't never bought any records. You know, that 12 inch dance mixes and all, and then just kept getting better jobs. And then I started winning competitions. 

Phil Howell: I got a job at Carlos'n Charlie's El provato on the strip and a sunset strip, sunset Boulevard. And I met, I mean, everybody came there, every star. I did parties for them. Alice Cooper was one of the partners in that club, but I did parties for Donna summer. And I mean, you name it, Prince I Prince came in all the time and would sit there and just talk to me and he didn't drink. He was a great guy. He just was quiet, nothing like the Prince you saw, you know, but I got in a comp competition spinoff and this guy came out from New York who had won the year before, won best DJ and with billboard magazine and we did a spinoff and I beat him. Next thing I know I was voted best DJ in the United States by Billboard magazine. And they had a party for me at Capitol records, the round building up in the penthouse and all, and it was kind of cool. But after that it was downhill. I'd already reached what was kind of the pinnacle. You know, it wasn't that much fun anymore. So 

Phil Howell: We'll Pause and go back to the middle of this period. Deejaying air force gets in touch with me again. We don't have enough pilots now, you know, the military, feast or famine, if you will come back to, reserves, we'll promote you to captain. And I go, okay. Cause I was missing that I would like to fly, but since I was a reserve, I got f-4's which were being phased out at F-4 Phantoms and, foreign powers were buying them for instance, Germany. And then my buddy, who was in the air force Academy, he went and got F fifteens in that would have been better, but still it was okay. So I was in the air force reserves and then flew F-4 Phantoms, mainly teaching the Lufassa how to fly RF fours. And so I did that and got promoted to major. And this is all through the rest of this period. 

Phil Howell: Even. I mean, up into the mid eighties, I was in the air force. And then I went to a physical checkup. You have to get a checkup with a flight surgeon to make sure you're not dying. Well, she said, I was, she said that I had mild right. Ventricular fibrillation and they couldn't in my heart and they couldn't allow me to fly. And so then they offered me a desk job and I said, no, no, but I get to come in the reserves and do it once in a while and sit at a desk. So I got out and I haven't died yet. But anyway, so now I'm a DJ and, and I'm, I'm really tired of being a DJ. I'm working at these big clubs. I had one night, I was working at a club called studio one in Hollywood and it went, it stretched a block and a half. 

Phil Howell: It was one big warehouse building. And, I'm a, I'm the DJ hung from the ceiling and I'm up there playing, I'm doing a mix and you're concentrating. It's just like playing golf. I mean, you're concentrating on that shot. Someone taps me on the shoulder. I go get out and I'm still mixing. And he taps me on the shoulder and I go, I'm still, I'm holding this long beat mix on it. You're having to drag your finger. This was before the techniques, 1200 Mark two came out with a pitch control that you could, you had to drag and speed up the record yourself. So I'm working this thing and this guy keeps bugging me. Finally, I get down to the mix and I turn around I what, Oh, it's rod Stewart standing there. And he goes, I just cut this acetate, which was what they used to do in vinyl records. 

Phil Howell: They do a pressing, on acetate it to see how it would sound, et cetera. And he goes, I just did this song. Could you put it on And we can see how the crowd responds and I don't know, 2000 people, I mean, it was wall to wall dancers. And I go, I don't know, let me listen. And I, it was 120 beats a minute, which is where I was. So I go, yeah, I'll put it on. So I mixed into it and the people didn't leave the floor. Huh. Which is a good sign. And I, I mixed out of it. I go, yeah, that's, that's pretty good rod. And he goes, thank you. And he took it and walked off. It was Do you Think I'm sexy that song. But that happened a lot in the DJ days, but it was, it was fun then, but then it got tiring and I wanted to do something else. 

Phil Howell: So I'd always look for something. Since I worked at night, I could do stuff in the day. I became partners in a photo studio in LA Quinta, California down by Palm Springs and our, our agency. I mean, our, our business had an agency contact with a cliff Brown agency who had all the politicians. They had four Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan. They had Walter Annenberg, the rich guy, they had the Bob hope, Frank Sinatra. So I would get assigned to go out and shoot these guys with a camera and, I'd go out. And, Oh, we have the PGA and, PGA West was just getting started down there. But I'm real fast. I know we're supposed to be four wheeling here. It's very intriguing. Keep going. That's great. Well, we're Ronald Reagan. The very first time I was assigned to take pictures of him. He was speaking at the Eisenhower medical center, which had a small auditorium and this was in Palm desert rock. 

Phil Howell: Ron and Nancy would always come down and stay with the Annenbergs, which had, who had a giant estate. He had his own golf course and everything. Well anyway, so I go in, I have my bag. I have Hasselblad . There are no digital in those days. I have a Hasselblad camera and I have the Hasselblad in my hand. And I have my bag in the other hand, my camera bag and Ronald Reagan speaking from this little podium and it had about a two foot drop to what would be the orchestra. It, but it wasn't, it was just a concrete, flat floor up to where the seats started. This was a little auditorium. I come walk in in the secret service guy sitting there. He goes, Hey, can I go Yeah, hi. I'm going to take pictures. He goes, okay, got it. Check your bag. 

Phil Howell: Yeah. Right. I know I'm not a bomber. I know there's nothing there. And I didn't, I, it didn't cross my mind that they were serious. So I go walking out in front of Reagan, kind of bending over. And it was the next thing I know I'm tackled. And the camera goes scooting across the floor, the bag goes the other direction. Ronald Reagan stops his talk and he goes, are you okay I go, yes, mr. President, I retrieved the camera. Luckily it wasn't broken. And I did my assignment and I became friends with his secret service contingent after that, although they always check the bag, but I was friends with those guys after that. But it was, it was funny. It was funny looking back on it at the time, it was pretty embarrassed, but great experiences that you've gotten up to that point. It's awesome. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. 

Phil Howell: And it was fun to meet these people all during the day, this time I'm four-wheeling and I'm a member of a club called Suria Al Jamal Jeep club, which is the fast camels. Okay. Fast camels. Yeah. And the fast camels had started a Jeep run shortly after world war two. all these guys came back from the war. They bought old flat fenders and Earl Stanley Gardner who wrote Perry, Mason. He was in the club. I mean, all of these guys, it was really cool by the time I joined it, Earl Stanley Gardner was dead and, and most of the men in the club were headedthere. They were very old. A lot of them, their kids, some of their kids were in it. And most of them weren't that interested. My friend was a guy named Steve slackard. He owned, Indio. His dad owned Indio, a lot of Indio speedometer and, and his dad and Steve had a falling out. 

Phil Howell: So Steve went, started his own business called Indio automotive and electric. Steve knew his stuff. He was very good and a very good four Wheeler Jeeper. He had a CJ. We all have CJ's. I mean, then it was there wasn't much else. There was, well, there was Scouts, but early Broncos, very few. We'd see an F in the club. We had one guy with an F150 short bed and he was an excellent driver, but that thing was beat. Cause we'd go through these narrow canyons and all, and he just pushed through, or he wouldn't make it and have to go around. But the rest of his had CJ's. Steve was a great driver and his shop was a great place. He used to let me go down and, and Mount tires and balance and mount my tires, and balance on myself. And I really liked it. 

Phil Howell: But Steve then later on committed suicide. So that's sad. I had lost touch with him over the years. And then someone just told me that he's no longer around. It's very sad. He was a good guy. And he was a big mover and shaker in our, our world down there in the seventies and early eighties. So anyway, I'm in the club now, also during the seventies, I'd gone out and gone. Four-wheeling, I'd gotten involved with a little group, not club, Dixie Peck, the Shooks gene shoot. We have, Tom Smith, you know, we have, which is, C Peck, Rancho suspension, and Smittybilt. And they went out four wheeling in the desert. I went with them a few times now. I wasn't like a major member of this group. I just was able to somehow four wheel with them sometimes, but I knew him and I got to know the industry a little bit. 

Phil Howell: So I I'm still four-wheeling. I, I become president of the fast camel Jeep club. The run is still going on every year. It happened right after, TDS, you know, Tierra Del Sol. Right. And we would, we made these, these old guys from the forties had built trails out there over the mountains in the aura Copia mountains, which is in between Indio, California and Blythe, California. And there's a little place called Shuraako summit, which was a base for Patton in world war II when they did the California training center. Right Well, these guys went South of there and they had put in these trails, they've taken some of the old military roads that were there and then added to them up through the mountains, great trails. And so we would pick every year, which ones to use and we'd have to bring the BLM Rangers out and they approve it. 

Phil Howell: It was a lot of fun, but it got more and more political. As you know, through the eighties. Then the year they were going to pass the California desert protection act, the BLM came and asked the club to GPS, all the trail coordinates. You know, first of all, hardly anybody had a GPS. GPS had just come out. barely had just come out. No, excuse me. They didn't even want GPS. Hadn't really kind. It was on its way, but they had, they wanted it, sorry, I'm old. but we had Topo maps. They gave us, and they said, we want you to go out and Mark the routes on all these Topo maps. Because when this protection act comes out, we want to make sure your trails are open. Well, I am believe them. And I said, I don't think we should work with them on this. 

Phil Howell: And of course the rest of the club voted me down. They assigned the rest of the club, even though I was president big deal, they go, well, Phil, you built that trail. We called it the number two trail. And it was in another group of mountains. They go, you give them the map for that. And we'll go out and do our number one trail, which was really a cool trail. I go, don't do it. And they go, no, we're going to, and you need to too. We don't want to make them mad at us. Well, they did. And I didn't. And so when the protection act came out, they took every section of land that that trail went through. Even if it was just a corner and they closed it. Now, my mountains were still open because I didn't give them anything. And it's still open to this day out there. 

Phil Howell: I, I so much want to go out there and rerun that I've looked at it on Google earth and can't hardly find only the climbs up the Hills where they've eroded are still there. You can't see the trail. But anyway, so led the last fast camel was 1990 and I led that. And, that was right before the protection act happened. I don't know when exactly, but it was in those years, we ran the fast camel cruise. We had a ton of people from all over. And then that was the last one. The club died out. The men, the older men, all, all passed away. And the kids of those guys weren't interested anymore pretty much. But the club include, you know, bill Bryan, he's in the off-road motor sports hall of fame. He was an old racer. There was a lot of guys in that. 

Phil Howell: And I, I counted a privilege to know them and to pick up tips while I was learning how to drive off road. Well, from these old guys, I remember I had a Detroit locker in the back and one of my seventies, jeez, a Detroit locker and a power lock in the front. Cause you who'd put it right in the front. You couldn't steer. I was told. So then all these old men would like get out and they'd crawl. These Hills are our big thing was how elegant you could climb Hills and how slow you could go without spinning tires. And they, they crawl. I, I think I do pretty well, but my front would, would, you know, spin. And these guys would just crawl up and I, Oh, how are you doing it They go, we have Detroit's front and rare. I Oh, you can't steer. 

Phil Howell: And they go, yes, it can. And so I started putting Detroit's front rear in my vehicles and sure enough, yes, you could steer. And it was great fact. You could learn a little throttle to this day. I can't tell you how to do it. But throttle, feathering, where the Detroit, when you crank the wheel, it'll actually pull you around. I don't, I can't explain how it is. It's just seated the pants type thing, but all this stuff you learn from these old guys, I did, I learned, I had become director of entertainment for Marriott hotels for the region. I hired the DJs and the bands really didn't like it, except it left me free to go four wheeling at times, which I like I quit there and started a Jeep tour company in Palm Springs. Only. It was, I was using her 88 Broncos, 1988. 

Phil Howell: I had borrowed the money and bought, I don't know, five or six Broncos. And we built seats in the back and a roll cage took that back half off of the top. And then these company, we, we do the destination management people. They have conventions and they'd hire us. They go, we'd need 104 seats. And then they pay us for that. So I didn't have enough seats. So I bought a couple Jeep scramblers and put them, put seats in them. And then my, my manager called me one day. So we had a fist fight. What he goes. Yeah. People were fighting to get in one of those. Scramblers no one wanted in the Bronco. So I had, I had my drivers poll everybody, and they all wanted to ride a Jeep, forget the Broncos, even though the Broncos were more comfortable. So I sold them, all bought a bunch of scramblers. 

Phil Howell: We worked for about a year. And then I sold out to my competition because you had to rely on the BLM every year for your permitting. And you never knew if you were going to be working next year or not. And I didn't like that. So I sold it to, to my competition and was doing nothing. Well, I'd been friends with John Curry was one of my buddies we'd met in their early eighties, maybe 83, 84. And he was my four wheeling buddy, John. And I would go out, we'd go out in the desert, we'd meet and go four wheeling. And he had a number of different vehicles. one of my favorites, he had built a CJ seven with a four 50 Ford Chevy in it. And Oh, that thing was clean and nice. And we were running 30 threes and thought that was pretty cool. 

Phil Howell: Cause you know, back earlier we were running like 10, 15 Armstrong, true tracks. And, and before that it farm implement tires that were smooth with the grooves in them. But boy I'm on 30 threes came out and we were, that was nice big tires. And one time we were going to do a run out at Shrinko summit and John come meets us out there and walks in the cafe. We were on breakfast and you go look what I did to my Jeep. And it was this four 54 CJ and it's probably 87. Cause the YJ had come out. I go out and I go, Whoa, what size are those tires And they have 30 fives. You had 35 and BMG mud terrains. I go, how did you fit those on He goes, Oh, that new YJ Wrangler came out with a flares that have room that trim in the back and he put those on and trimmed it. 

Phil Howell: So I immediately went home, got some YJ flares and put 30 fives on my CJ. And then we were, that was something after 30 fives, we were four wheeling all the time. And during my, as Jeep, when I had the Jeep tour company, I had bought a salvage, CJ seven, I had got Curry nine inches front and rear. Now I wasn't at the magazine or anything. And so all this stuff was paid for with actual money. I drove that Jeep to Moab. Now I was also in the red rock four wheelers. I'd gone up in about 82 and met Dan Mick who was, had just moved there like I think in 79, 80. And he was the president of the red rocks. Now they hadn't done anything from like the late sixties. They kind of had a town run on Easter, but it really, the club wasn't that active until George Schultz. 

Phil Howell: the senior and Dan had gotten together and they got the club going again. And in fact, Dan got hold of George's CJ seven and painted it up. And that was Dan's Jeep. At the time I met him, excuse me No, he had an early AA. He had a, a K five blazer. when I first met him, well that wasn't locked up. And you know, here I come from the California desert with all these guys and he took me over to potato salad Hill and she was going to show me hell's revenge. I'd never seen it, never been to it. He goes, go up that. And I look and I go, okay, a potato salad Hill. He goes, well, I'm going to go around and sit on top. I want to get some pictures. So he goes around and I get tired of waiting for him. 

Phil Howell: So I drive up the Hill, no big deal. I have lockers front and rear and I get to the top. Dan goes, you damn guys with lockers, but anyway, I've been coming off and on the Moab, since 72, when we went down there to get Christmas trees for a thing I was in, in college, up at the Y we had gone down to cut Christmas trees to sell them and discovered that. So I've been going there to, and off and on, but I didn't know any of these trails that the club had. So Dan took me out, showed me these different trails about 80, you know, I don't know what year I started leading the behind the rocks trail, but I did in the mid eighties and led it up until about 1990 or so Phil Smith, the doctor in Cedar city was my tail gunner for all those years. 

Phil Howell: And he took it over when I quit and led behind the rocks. After that for a number of years, I really enjoyed it in those days. I mean, Easter Jeep, Safari, no corporate presence at all. It was a bunch of guys, four wheel. And, we had where Eddie, Mick stiffs is in Moab. That was a barn. You know, we used to just meet at the barn and say, okay, I'm going to go to Moab Rim or I'm going to go to hell's revenge and who wants to go And you raise your hand, the people would raise hands and then we'd take them out and lead them only big Saturday. You would sign up for it. But the rest of the week you just went and it was fun. Then it got, the barn got sold. Moab started getting popular, and this is an eighties. 

Phil Howell: Now the magazines weren't paying a lot of attention to us, to, our, our four wheeling, our exploring family club, back country type stuff. It was getting more Chrome shocks, bikini girls standing in the back of pickups. off-road Rick Simons, you know, he was still doing real four wheeling and the off-road magazine, but by and large, nobody else was so we weren't getting any coverage and it didn't matter to us. We didn't know we needed coverage. It was a lot of fun, four wheeling in those days. Well, it gets to be 1990. I go in to the drivers meeting on Easter Jeep Safari. I'm leading behind the rocks, which by the way, Gary Moulton, a member of the club who lived in Moab that first year I did behind the rocks. I go, Hey, Gary, you know, I'm not sure I know every turn. 

Phil Howell: Can we go up Can you take me out there And I'll just put little, surveyors tape at the turns so I can lead people. He goes, yeah. So he took me out there and we went out, ran behind the rocks. We get to potato salad or, Oh, for heaven sakes, the big, main obstacle on behind the rocks, white knuckle by knuckle Hill. We'd go down it, come back up, you know, fool around. And then he goes, now the trail goes out here to the County road and then we go over to Pritchett and go down Pritchett. I go, okay. He goes, but there's another way I can show you. And it's we turn right at the bottom of the Hill. So I go, yeah, let's look at that. It was down Hunter Canyon. Now there wasn't even a road down a Hunter Canyon. 

Phil Howell: We just kind of trail broke through the reeds. And the ruts is through the Canyon, up on a little shelf, under an overhang and got that. And then I thought it was nice. And, and so I added that in to the, behind the rocks trail. I just started leading the trail that way. And it always cracked me up that years later, I was coming up Pritchett and I get to the top and here's a sign Hunter Canyon behind the rocks trail. And I go, all right. But, but anyway, 90 came around, had the driver's meeting. There was some people that were really tree huggers. They were jeepers, but you know, very environmentally conscious. And I wasn't then, you know, I am more now, but I still don't think they were right. They wanted to keep us off everything while they had the drivers meeting. 

Phil Howell: And they said, okay, now you have to take this port-a-potty with bags. And if anybody has to go, you let them go on this. And then you carry the bags out. I go, what Don't let them carry the bag. Oh no, we have to make sure the bags don't get put anywhere. You have to carry them out. And I said, all right. And then, and then they have another guy get up the land use guy. And he says, okay, now the, our trails are in the dirt road. Sections are getting wider and wider. So we don't only, we not only want you to stay on the trails, but we need you to stay in the center of the trails. And if you see anybody pulling to the side of a trail, you have to run up and tell them to move back. Well, that was the straw that broke the camel's back. 

Phil Howell: And I just said, I'm not doing it. So Phil was sitting up a few rows ahead of me, Phil Smith. And I walked up, I go, do you want to lead this thing instead of me You go with, well, yeah. So I go, okay, goodbye. And I quit. And I quit the club. And now that is not the red rock four wheelers of today. They are great. And the people are involved in there, they're into the sport. And so this was just a few people in leadership back at that one little period. So please don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-redrock. So now I just come into Moab and it gets well. In fact, we went to that year. I was at Safari and Warn had a run warn, winch, not like they do now, but this one was just some friends they'd put together. 

Phil Howell: And Tom McMullin, who was McMullan publishing, who had some magazines and his wife, Deanna were there. And they were really good friends with Frank Curry. So I, I knew Tom from the eighties and, Tom comes up , Hey Phil, you going to go on this Warn run. I go, yeah, got an extra seat. And I said, yeah, by myself, he said, well, we had take Deanna. I go, yeah. He goes, yeah. I want to take some important people from Warren. So I go, okay. So Deanna gets in, we run Hells revenge. And she's questioning me about my wife, my family, about my life. And I go, wow, stop. What do you care And then, but I, I answered her and then that was it. It was fun. We had our, you know, the run and went home two weeks later, Tom calls, Hey, how would you like to be the editor of my, of a four-wheel drive magazine 

Phil Howell: I go, Tom, I don't know. I flunked English. Every time I took it, I flunked it. Cause I didn't listen. He goes, Oh, we don't care about that. We want enthusiasts. We find, we hired journalists, majors, English, majors. They don't know anything about it that the enthusiasts can see right through that. He goes, you had that photo studio. I know you can take pictures. We can fix your writing. Do you want to try it I go, well, I would like to, but I'm scared. And he goes, listen, we have a magazine we're killing. So if you don't do well, it's going to get killed anyway. and I go, okay, I'll try it. And then a word on that. What happened was, as I said, most of the magazines except off road. And I believe by then Rick Simons was gone. So all of the magazines were doing Chrome roll bars, flags in the back, bikini girls standing in there. 

Phil Howell: And McMullen had a magazine called four-wheel drive action. And it had started out pretty good. And then he started telling the editor what they had to run the editors. And he went through a number of different editors. And Tom liked women in his magazine. He loved them. In fact, right before I started, they had a picture of two girls in bikinis, all soaped up with a tool chest in a, in a Jeep and they were washing it. No one cared about the Jeep. It was just the girls and they were, they didn't have any advertising anymore. In fact, the only advertising in the magazine were carry overs. Like they set a few by this 12 month, full page, four color ad in truck magazine, we'll put you for free in four-wheel drive action. I think they changed it by the end of four wheel drive SUV or something. 

Phil Howell: And so there was no advertising and they were going to kill it. And so I came in and I said, well, Tom, if you want me to be the editor, these bikini girls have got to go, no, I go, yeah, Tom, we're going to do a real four wheeling in this magazine. Well, I don't know. Well, Ken Yeet, who is Tom's partner calls me up and he goes, Phil, yeah, you got to understand the girls, a wonderful, they 5,000 more readers. Every time girl on cover, Ken was from China or Hong Kong or Taiwan or somewhere. And he was a good guy and he was a smart guy too, but I didn't agree with him on this. I go, I don't care. I, if you want me to be the editor, I don't want these unless they're driving the Jeep. You know, I don't want them just gratuitously this. 

Phil Howell: Isn't, you know, put on the cover. This is, it's not sports illustrated. It's certainly not Penthouse. And they, and then Tom talked him in, can in the left and didn't happened. And I started out and I wrote my first editorial that said we were changing the focus of the magazine to real four wheeling to family club and just back country exploring. And that probably wouldn't be gone to events because everybody else would cover events. And we just want to give you trail riding and, and rock crawling and whatever, which was not rock crawling that with 10 years later, the very first, well, it came out the first issue and Oh, I changed the name to four wheel drive and sport utility magazine. Tom said there had to be a Sport utility in there because they were so big. I changed the logo. I did the logo, I designed it. 

Phil Howell: The very first magazine came out and the ads start coming in. The marketing girl for Warn was a woman. And she said, I was so glad to see this, that you're going to support women as long as they're doing what you're doing. But she goes, I refuse to do it with that with bikini girls and things. So they bought full page ad. All these other people came in and said, wow, no one's doing this well, Tom told me that it probably take a year to be profitable. And for any man and he'd started many magazine, well, we were profitable within six months and we were never giant like four wheel an off-road or four Wheeler. But we were a good niche publication for that family club and back country for wheelie. So that's what we covered. I had some good guys kind of first. It was only me. 

Phil Howell: And there's a number of names like Alan Phillips wrote for me. Well, my name is Phillip Alan Howell. So Alan Phillips was me and a, there's a number of different, nom de plume. You know that when it was really only me, I didn't have a buyout for freelancing. Once in a while, David Freiberger would write for me, he was not at the magazines yet, but he was a freelancer. Everything. David does turns to gold. I mean, he's, he's awesome. But, but really hardly anybody wrote no, no one wrote for me. And then they gave me a buyout as things got better. And I hired Mark work Meister. I don't know if you remember him, Jay ski. all good guys. Then they let me hire Trent Trent riddle. Now Trent had a, had a cup. He was building a dual battery system and I had done a story on his dual battery system and, got to talk and with him and I got this guy, it'd be good, you know, for hiring to be an associate editor. 

Phil Howell: And they finally gave the okay. And I did. And of course Trent was great. And later on, Kevin McNolty came on board and he was great. it, you know, people like to say that we had competition, we weren't all the same company back then. in fact, John Stewart, who was the editor of four Wheeler at the time. Now he's a vice president at SEMA, but, he came up to me at this at the first SEMA, after our issues, it started coming out and he came up to me and said, Phil, we applaud what you're doing, but you'll never make it. No one will advertise in this magazine. You have to do cards in stalls. You have to, you have to show stuff that you've quit showing the Chrome and the people like it. He goes, but it won't happen. But we do applaud your efforts. 

Phil Howell: Two years later, he came up to me and said, wow, I have to eat my words. Because by then they had started doing trail riding and all, and of course, Pewe, wasn't there then at, four wheel and well, or at JP, remember when he first got hired, they hired him for JP. And none of those guys were there. Rick, Rick hit was, I think he owned a business called Republic off-road in Phoenix, if he didn't own it, he was, he managed it. But all of us it's like we got along, even though we were competitors, people would say, Oh yeah, those guys said this or that. And no, they didn't. You know, we all PR I can't think of anybody in our industry that while I worked there, who was bad, who was a jerk, every one of them had their own area of expertise. 

Phil Howell: Rick, you give them a flat fender in pieces. Every single piece he'd have it built probably within a week. Maybe not. But I mean, he, he liked one time we were four wheeling and Rick turned around and I go, what happened Oh, it was, Helldorado . Yeah. And, I, what happened, Rick The trail get too hard fry. He goes, no, my frame broke in half, which it did on his flat fender. It broke in half and Ned bacon in him had gone back to town. they somehow got him back to town, but I asked him cause he was quite happy about the whole thing. I go, do you like working on this stuff more than you like driving up these trails And he goes, well, you said it, not me, but I think he enjoys working on things like that. Me I'd rather be driving. 

Phil Howell: I can work on it, but all through most of my tenure at the magazine, I would get a shop to like John Bundurant at all, pro for the Toyotas, a number of different Jeep places. Well, of course Curry. It was funny. And when the YJ came out though, fuel injected YJ in 91. that four liter was nice, but I wanted to put a Chevy Corvette engine in the YJ an LT one. I asked John Curry, if we could use Curry enterprises. Cause they had hoists and nice shop and he goes, no, I go really He goes, yeah, if you want to get me an LT one also, and I can build my YJ. He goes, I'll let you use the shop. So I said, I don't know, I'll ask GM. So I called up the GM and they said, yeah, we'll do that. We'll give you a two complete drive trains. 

Phil Howell: The, the LT one and a four L I think it was a four L 60 back then automatic. They sent one of their engineers, Mark McPhail out to oversee the project. So John did two thirds of the work on my Jeep first while I took pictures and wrote about it. I did some of the work, but John was two thirds. Mark McPhail was probably another quarter of a, you know, maybe I don't know. And I was the rest that Jeep turned out perfect. I mean, and it was like GM did it. And then John got his done with Mark McPhail, his help now remember GM engineer, he got everything working and including the vats and you know, the vehicle anti-theft system wouldn't let it run. So he per reprogrammed it, it was just like a Corvette, you know, only it was in a Jeep. So I took it to the California air resources, board referee. 

Phil Howell: And now I had already called them before we started the project to make sure that it would be okay to do this. And they said, Oh yeah, long as you have all the smog equipment on it. Okay. So we take you, the referee comes out, he goes, your Jeep put out one 10th. What we allow, he goes out is a clean Jeep. I go, fantastic. He goes, but we can't approve it. I go what He goes, no, this year Corvette engine, Chevy brought the Corvette LT one into California on a waiver. And because they did that, we can't allow that engine to go into anything else in California. I have this expensive Jeep. Now I can't register it. So John goes, I'll try it. So John takes his into the referee, another referee and same thing. And then we get called by California and say, okay, now there are two Jeeps here that looked identical, different VIN numbers. 

Phil Howell: But we want you to know they're in our system. And if you try to register them again in California, we will impound them. And, I, okay. So I put mine up for sale and I sell it to a good guy, comes from Fresno, California. And I tell him, I go, you can't register this. He goes, that's okay. I have a home in Reno too. I go, okay, registered in Nevada, not California. About a month later here comes a knock on my front door. I opened the door. Here is a highway patrolman. And he's with a guy with a w another highway patrolman, but in a jumpsuit, a blue jumpsuit. And I look outside and there's a truck with a trailer on it. And I go, hello He goes, he didn't ask who I was. And we told him, he goes, yes. Okay. You tried to register your vehicle again a 1991, Y J Jeep Wrangler. 

Phil Howell: And, we're here to impound that vehicle. I go, Oh, I sold that vehicle. I showed him the bill. I had a copy of the paperwork and I go, but the guy said he was in Nevada. He lived in Nevada. He goes, well, it was, the attempt was made. Let's see, in central California, I go, well, it wasn't me. And can you give me the guy's information there Well, I couldn't tell him I didn't have it cause I just showed him. So I gave him the information. Then I got ahold of the guy go, you better get that Jeep out of the state. Why did you try to register it He goes, well, I was pretty sure that I'm in central California. You were in Southern. So while they're coming to get it so off, he goes and they never did catch him. He did finally register it in some of these air resources, board things. 

Phil Howell: Utah's a lot better on that. Anyway, then rock crawling. We get up through the years at the magazine and in 1992, I was talking to Bob Hazel. Now Bob Hazel at a company called sports in the rough. I know, you know, Bob, right And they did all kinds of different adventure stuff with four wheel drives and other things and iron man stuff. And, and I was telling Bob about this idea. I had on a trials for four by fours and, and he's wow, that's cool. And this is 92. We were, I believe we were in Moab and I was talking to him at a carwash. But anyway, so that was it. Well, 1997 rolls around 98. Bob calls me, he goes, remember that thing you were talking to me about, about that motor or the motorcycle Tron, the four by four trials. I go, yeah, he goes, you want to do that 

Phil Howell: And I go, yeah. He goes, yeah, I'll use sports in the rough. And you know, cause I already have the company, he goes and we'll do this we'll partner. So I, okay. So Bob didn't have much idea on how to do it. So I got to think, and then worked out a scoring system and how it would work and all, and we decided Bob lived in the Carolinas somewhere and I lived in California. So let's, let's do it in Las Cruces, New Mexico, that's in the center. So we went there and the club there was very helpful and showed us a couple of canyons. And I chose this Canyon to run and me and the curries went out and we set up the course and Bob, Bob did kind of paperwork with the sponsors and all, he was doing that. I was doing the course layout and then we had a great turnout that first year. 

Phil Howell: Were you there I think, you know, I didn't, I didn't, I made it to the, the one in Johnson Valley was the first rock crawl I went to, that was the second one. I'll tell you about that a minute. So we had that. It worked great, you know Yeah. Everything worked well, except one thing, Bob thought that although all the participants should not have any stickers on their vehicles that we had to require all the vehicles, all the participants to use the PR the event sponsors stickers on the vehicles. I told him why I don't agree with this because these guys, lot of them have got parts for the exposure. And I'm like, you know, ARB, isn't going to get much exposure. If they're in somebody's dif you know, they need to have it on the vehicle. That's why they gave the parts to these guys in exchange for the marketing exposure. 

Phil Howell: No, no. And we talked about it and Bob Bob said, okay, we'll go ahead and not, not require them to take their stickers off. Well, at the event at registration, they were required to take off their stickers. I didn't agree with Bob on that. And after the event, we had decided to go to Johnson Valley for the next one, which was right by where I lived and I got the permit and had the permit in hand. And then I talked about now, Bob, what about this sponsorship deal We still need to get by that. And he goes, I really feel strongly. I need to support the event sponsors, which is, was it true thing I go, well, yeah, but we need to let them have it, you know, their own stickers on there to the competitors. And he said, no, because what if they compete against our event 

Phil Howell: Sponsors, for instance, BF Goodrich was a sponsor. You know, the main sponsor and somebody who's running Toyo, you know, Bob didn't feel like it was right for them to have the stickers on. So I go, well, we need to agree to disagree and we'll split up. Well, Bob got quite angry at me as did all his buddies in the industry. And, and I felt kind of bad. I mean, this was just two different opinions. It wasn't that one guy was bad and the other guy was good. You know, it was two different opinions. So I told Bob, listen, you can have Johnson Valley, I'll give you the permit and you can just continue with that. And I will go somewhere else. Well, I had friends in Farmington. We'd been four-wheel in there forever. And Jim Peterson and Phil collard. So I go over there and I talked to Phil and I go, you want to help me lay out a rock crawl competition here 

Phil Howell: Yeah, sure. So we did, we laid out the comp Tish and there together Phil is great. And then I found out from a friend that there were a couple other friends of mine who were thinking of starting another, competitive rock crawling series. Now I had been just breaking even on this thing. And I had Goodyear had said they were going to be the name sponsor, but they never sent the check. And so I was like, Oh, I'd rather be four wheeling. And then running this competition. So I called up ranch Pratt who, who was starting the, the was thinking about starting another event. And I asked if he was interested in just taking mine over. And he said, yeah. So that happened. That became our, the ARCA series. you know, the rest is history on that. And Phil, I think, stayed with them and helped them lay out courses all throughout the West. And I kind of backed out of it. Then I see that my scoring system it's still used in places, but, 

Big Rich Klein: The only place it's really, I mean, besides Jesse Haines, putting on Supercrawl now, I'm the only one really doing, you know, a national series and I'm still doing an east-west and, and a national championship event. And then there's a small series up in the Northeast. And then once in a while there, the Idaho X rocks does a series, but otherwise it's, we rock is the only one that's still still going. 

Phil Howell: Well, it was exciting. But I went back to my roots of four-wheeling and right. And I mean, it's still in the magazine, you know, we're doing four wheel drive. And then at, at, in 2004, they came to me and said, we want you to leave four wheel drive and go to off-road magazine. Cause, and see if you can bring off off-road off-road, wasn't doing bad. It wasn't dirt sports yet, but it just was kind of level. And they wanted to see the numbers come up. I went there and I didn't do any better than any other editor who was there. It didn't go down. It didn't go up. But I had kind of turned it from racing. I went back to trail riding with trucks and Jeeps and whatever. And I remember at SEMA in 2006, I went and ran into some industry people and Hey, Phil, what are you doing now 

Phil Howell: I go, I'm the editor of off road magazine. Oh, wow. Oh, we don't read that one. Thanks. So anyway, but it didn't work out. And but I was still there and then they called me and said, we'd like you to go back to four-wheel drive in sport utility. And if you don't want to you're fired. And I went, no, I want to, I want to go back there. So, and they put, was it Mike Finnegan I, I can't remember who they put in as Jared Jones. I think they put him in his editor there and of course did a great job. Went back to the racing and, and, and other things that they covered him in. When they bought dirt sports, they rolled it together. And of course it's whatever happened to it after the big bloodletting, I don't know that those guys did a great job, but I'm back at four wheel drive and was there until 2014. 

Phil Howell: And I did lots of projects. I can't even remember all the project vehicles I've owned. And that was one thing when we first started doing this and I'm not rich and you are only in name and personality, but, but anyway, I couldn't afford to buy these vehicles, without the money from the vehicle before. And my magazine wasn't big enough. You know, a lot of the bigger magazines would get dollar vehicles from Ford or Jeep or Chevy, whatever Toyota they'd give them dollar vehicles to build up. And then they had to write about them for a period of time in the magazine. I didn't get any of those. So I would get these projects done and then to do the next one, I'd sell them. And I remember John came to me, John Curry goes, you know, we supply your axles a lot that were kind of mad. 

Phil Howell: You, you sell these vehicles the minute you get them done. I go, yeah. And I explained, I can't afford to do the next one. And the magazine doesn't buy the projects it's me. Oh, okay. And they were okay with that. And then I remember Tom wood came to me, Tom woods, custom drive shop. And he had worked for six dates. He was working for six States here in Utah doing the same thing, building dried shots. And Tom was trying to figure out whether he should go on his own, but it's hard to give up a paycheck and benefits. And I told him, if you go on your own, I will write about you all the time, because I loved his drive shafts. I'm he, he had participated and he did. And of course, that's history too. We wrote about him and he, he became giant. 

Phil Howell: And, but Tom once came to me, he goes, you know what about this I build your drive shafts. And then you sell the vehicle. And after we get the magazine coverage and I go, well, here's the deal. Tom told him I couldn't afford to do the next one without Sona. And I go, so here's what I can do. You can build me one set of drive shafts, and I'll promise you, I won't sell this vehicle, but you'll get no more press for any more projects because I can't afford it or I can build it, sell it and then get the next one. And we'll do it again. Yeah. That's what I'd rather have. So that's why I always had so many different vehicles. I was always trying to finance the next project. Although now that I'm, semi-retired things haven't changed that much. I have a new Ford ranger right now that I'm building a, to appear in for waiter magazine. Yeah, it is. It's fun. But I've gone back to kind of exploring. I love to go out. And where does that road go and, and go on it and see where it goes. Find a ghost town, find, you know, ruins, find beautiful scenery. I mean, that's what drives me now. And I like to write about it still. Although the venues are less, you know, there isn't as many places now, but, to write about that stuff, especially in print. Yeah. In print, excuse me. Yeah. 

Big Rich Klein: And there, there is still, there is still a market for print crawl magazine, our magazine for low they're, more niche magazines, you might say, but they don't have all that corporate overhead that killed the other magazines over 

Phil Howell: Overhead is a nice word for it. And since it's a family show, we won't say that corporate, what it really is. They killed them. I mean, they killed the magazines. You look at what John Herrick has done with crawl and wood trail, and you've done for low and all. And they're fantastic looking. They have good paper, good photography, good writing. It really is good. And people still want them, but like my company just kept cutting it. And they were the manage. The upper management knew nothing about what we were doing and they themselves thought print was dead. they started making the paper so thin that the four-page full color ads when they printed it, the paper would crinkle. Cause it would get wet from the ink. It was so thin, you know, discovering media bought them, but the company, they kept four Wheeler and hot rod. And what one other hot rod, four Wheeler and Oh, for motor trend. Of course. When you think it's the motor trend group, but, and Ken Brewbaker is still at four Wheeler, still doing a good job. They need better paper. I found a four Wheeler on the stand. I have a story in the latest four Wheeler on a Jeep I built and I went to find one barely. It's so thin your guys, yours and John's magazines look so good. And I want to thank you for that too, for keeping that 

Big Rich Klein: I appreciate it. I really appreciate that when we decided to purchase for lo it was, it was a new magazine. It was an issue. 17 was a combined with the old owner and us, but he had only started printing, I think with issue 13, but it was such a small print run that he had really no marketing, no magazine, no, you know, no advertisers, not very many subscribers, I think a hundred or less. We took it. And, and I knew what I wanted. And luckily my wife is a, Shelley's a great editor. And my background in college was commercial photography. So we just kind of combined our skills, but being in the industry so long as an event promoter and being all over the place, you know, so many people have just jumped on board and become contributors that it's allowed us to grow the magazine slowly, but still put out a quality product and not have any overhead. You know, I mean the only overhead is the printing and the distribution and the distribution is all, you know, by subscription or we hand them out free. Yeah. The marketing partners are still getting, you know, our advertisers are still getting the magazine run out that they want, you know, the coverage. So it's a, it's a, it's guerrilla marketing at its finest. Yeah. 

Phil Howell: Yeah. No, that's fantastic. I guess that's about, about it. Well, God, you know, we're way over time. 

Big Rich Klein: No, we're not overtime. There is nothing called overtime. 

Phil Howell: Okay. It's funny. I like to think I was kind of a mover and shaker in the industry. I, I feel like I brought trail riding back to the, to the foe in the magazines and, and course, everybody else jumped on it and some did it better after me, but, but you know, I felt like I at least steered the ship. So it was heading back that way. And then the rock crawling thing and which very few people remember, you know, who lie. I read a lot of articles about rock crawling and they talk about this guy started it. This guy started it. Well, I didn't see any of them around. I'm the one that knew that's right. You are the one you, you, you always mentioned that. And I appreciate it. But, there's so many others. I mean, so many other unsung people or people who are not known as well. 

Phil Howell: I mean, Frank Curry, Holy cow. I mean what an awesome man. And, and he did so much behind the scenes to help the sport come forward. And then his boys, I didn't know, you know, we all have to learn stuff as we go along that one, CJ seven, I built and drove it to Moab from California and back without a top on, I loved that trip. And, but it wandered all over the road. And I knew enough. I knew how to undo the lock nut on the Saginaw box and adjusted a little tighter. And I did that and it got worse and longer and all over in South of Vegas, the semis had put ruts in the road and the highway and I hit those ruts and me, 

Phil Howell: Don't know what's wrong with this thing. It's wandering. And I drove it back down to Curry's one day for lunch and Ray Curry looks onto the vehicle and goes, man, this thing must wander all over the place. I know it does. How do you know He goes, look at a caster and it turned out I didn't have any, positive Chester in it. And of course those were leaf spring days. So actually I paid Curry to cut the, the seas off and rotate them back. And I got a little cast or, but, and it was cared. And then I knew about caster after that. But it's funny how in our earlier days how we had to learn this stuff, but Ray took one, look when I just sweated over it and just hated it. You know why this thing must wander all over the place. 

Phil Howell: And then John, of course John Curry, he, he is a wonderful driver. We competed against each other, you know, just friendly when we're out on runs all the time. We like to crawl the obstacles and then we'd like to race as fast as we could go in between. and you know, he's such a good driver, Gerald Lee, you know, Gerald, Oh, yet I in Gerald, what a great guy, all these industry guys, Tony, Jenn, right I remember he called me. I was living in hurricane and he called me up and he said, Hey, Phil. And he introduced himself. He goes, I have this gas tank that I'm making for Jeeps. He goes, and I can't get anybody to talk to me at any of the magazines and I'm coming through and I have, can I stop by your house and show you this tank 

Phil Howell: Yeah, sure. Wow. What can it hurt Well, he brought this beautiful stainless tank. It was, he was con at the ext, extended range tank and it was beautiful and it would bolt right in. And so I go, I have to take pictures of this. So I took pictures and did a little product review on it and the magazine, but he said he couldn't get anybody else to listen to him. So I called the guys at the other magazines and said, you got to look at this thing. This is great. It was wonderful to be able to help him get going. You know, John ran it all pro what a great guy. And he got in with Nelson and they built tiny. And, that was, that was what an awesome buggy, that thing. I still think it is. I mean, 

Big Rich Klein: I see it every year. It comes up and competes in Texas. 

Phil Howell: Oh, does it Okay. In Mexico, 

Big Rich Klein: He comes up from Mexico, from Toledo. However they say it and they come up and compete with us every March. 

Phil Howell: Cool. And then, I mean, you know, the problem with naming names is you forget someone and they get upset, but I can't think of one guy or girl in the sport that I can't think anything negative about them. Even the guys who we had our differences, you know, I just, I can't think of anything bad about, and they were great in their own way. And they've, they helped our sports so much, rod hall, which I can't say anything bad about it all. But do you remember that I had gotten in with M general, back in the early nineties, when they first brought the H one out the Hummer, they came to Moab and I was still leading behind the rocks, not on big Saturday, cause fill it, taken that, but I was leading it during the week and I took these H ones out with Jim armor, the president, he was trying to get up some Hills and Jim was pretty good driver and he would do it and then he'd have his corporate driver try it and he'd spin out and not do it. 

Phil Howell: And so he goes, Phil, do you want to try it And I go, yeah. And I lucked out, went right up white knuckle Hill then without even trying, he goes, Oh, I want you to be driving me one of these. So they started giving me a Hummer every year. I get it for a year and then they replace it with another one. But when they were recording rod hall, the race forum, I got a concept. Phil, would you like to come with us to Baja with Ron hall He wants to go and try out the, each ones down there. Yeah. So down we went and I had gotten pretty cocky by then. I thought I was pretty hot. I was a good driver. I mean, John Curry was a good driver and me and him were 50 50. You know, I was good. And I said, if I got the same vehicle as these racers, they don't have a chance. 

Phil Howell: You know Well, we'd go down there and they give me an H one, Rodan H one, and then they had some engineers and their drivers and a couple other ones, you know, we, we take off on the Baja 500 race course for that year. And within minutes we've left the am general guys. I mean, they're way back, but rod is in front of me and I'm driving now. I'm driving as hard as I can using all this skill. Now these Hummers weren't very fast at 6.2 diesel's, but I'm driving as hard as I can. And there's rods dust within 10 minutes. All I can see is his dust. And I'm driving as hard as I can edit. I had on me. And so in 20 minutes we had a little radios he's out of radio range. I'm driving as hard as I can. So all of a sudden, I go, you have to rethink your abilities, Phil. 

Phil Howell: I wasn't as hot as I thought I was, but we get to right before Mike sky ranch on the East side, you know, it's all Rocky and kind of to climb up to the last climb there to the ranch. Here's rod, Beatled on rock. He had high centered and in his, every time he'd stick it in gear and go forward. He turn one way and he put it in reverse and he pivot the other way. So I, now I kind of knew rock crawling. All right. You know, so I just crawl right by him and get to Mike sky ranch before he did now. Remember he had been so far away from me so far ahead of me that he was out of radio range. So just cause I kinda knew how to pick a line, maybe a little better in that one section. Well, they come up to me at lumps said, Phil, we can't have you drive that Hummer. 

Phil Howell: How, what, you know know, Rod's really mad that you came into Mike sky ranch before him and I go, he was killing me. He was miles ahead of me getting hung up a little bit. Doesn't count. He is way better driver. He has no reason to be mad and they go, well, he's a little upset. So we're going to have you get in the passenger seat. We're going to have, one of our drivers drive you afterwards after lunch. No. Okay. So we get in the Hummers after lunch and rode down to Oh anyway, from Mike sky ranch down to the Pacific side, there's a little town down there. I can't remember its name, but it's graded. It's really nice. But it's cut into the side of the mountain and there's cliffs. So rod takes off as usual. Well, this guy that corporate driver thinks he's like me. 

Phil Howell: He thought he was as good as rod all, which was not true for in either of our cases, but he's trying to keep up with rod. Well, once again, Rod's gone. I mean, we come around a few corners and you can't even see his desk anymore on the road. He's so far ahead, but this guy's trying to keep up and I'm getting a little worried because there's a big cliff on the side of the road and this guy's going as fast as he can. And then I think, well, don't worry about it. He doesn't want to die either. But then we get to this one big sweeping corner and the Hummer

Phil Howell: Starts to slide and broad drift. And I go, no. So I, he floors it, but it's a 6.2 liter diesel with no horsepower. So he doesn't have anything to pull out. So I go, this thing's going over and this Toad's gonna heavy tugs get crushes in here. So I put my hands under my legs and I laid on the center that giant motor covered center console. And I laid down on that and sure enough, we go off and the first about 10 feet is vertical and then it hits a Hill. That's probably about like this. I mean, so we fly off. When we hit that Hill park starts to roll. You know, we roll and roll and we roll to the bottom of the Hill. And we had a cooler in the, in ours that had rod like to drink milk. And he had a half gallon of milk in this cooler and the cooler came open and the container bounced off my head and knocked me at hot and broke on my head. 

Phil Howell: So I'm covered with mil. I'm just coming to at the bottom of the Hill Hummer sitting there, it hadn't caved in. Believe it or not. The roll cage that was in, it had been designed by one of the engineers and one of the other vehicles he came up and said, wow, I'm glad it worked on me too. But anyway, all four tires were flat and the windshield was broken. The driver goes out, let's see if we can get the central tire inflation up, pump him up again. Well, sure enough. He was able to pump up the tires. We drive down the wash to where there's a little less of a Hill and we were able to get back up on the road. Next thing we know here comes rod about a hundred miles an hour, back up the road. What happened to you guys And, and they go out, we went off trying to chase. He goes out and he looks, he goes, Oh, that's where Walker went off. The last race let's go. And he turned around and just takes off again. And, but that was a lesson to me, that rod hall is a good driver, was a good driver. So as Walker Evans Walker, and I have a few interesting times, in fact, he called me and said, you want to go

Phil Howell: Out to Johnson Valley with me And I go, sure, what for He goes, I'm getting interested in this rock crawling thing. And I know you kind of had something to do with it. And I go, yeah, I'm not in it, you know, but he goes, well, take me out there, show what's up. So we went up, sledgehammer was done and Jack hammer was only half finished. Didn't have the second calf. It only came in at the mailbox there, but took them out there. Randy came along, and Walker and Randy just followed us and it was great. It was so much fun to four-wheel with him and watch him decide whether he wanted to rock crawl or not. That was fun. Walker. I mean wish happy birthday. And he wishes me a happy birthday. That's about it. We, since I've moved up to Utah and I mean up to central, Northern Utah, you know, kind of lost touch, but Walker is great. 

Phil Howell: And Oh, rod, on that later on that Hummer, adventure in Mexico, I can never sleep. I've never slept well. So I'm, I'm awake half the time that night. And I hear noises out by the vehicle. So I go out there and I'm looking in the vehicles and here's someone in rods in the vehicle rod was driving and I pound on the window cause it it's guys kind of laying in there. And I thought it was somebody in there working on something that's unbolted or something. I pound on the window and the guy turns around and I shined my flashlight and it's rod. I go, what are you doing And he goes, I don't know. I like to get to be one with the vehicles that I'm thinking of driving. So I just thought I'd come out here and sleep in it all night long. Okay. See ya. 

Phil Howell: And he is a character. And every once in a while I get a message on LinkedIn from rod and it would just be how's Phil and I'd answer them all. I'm fine. Doing good. How are you He wouldn't answer back. But every once I can just send a message. It was an interesting relationship, but what great guys, all those guys are in were absolutely. Anyway. And then also before I go, I'd like to mention the guys who I know that like, who helped with our projects guys, like John Bon grant and, who was the Toyota guru still is, but I guess he's not involved with all pro anymore. I don't know. No he's told he sold it. Yeah. Okay. And then, up here we have of course milk Thompson. Who's like the guru of being able to fix anything with anything. If you break and out in the middle of nowhere and you're with milk you're okay. 

Phil Howell: Cause he can fabricate and make up stuff. And I mean, he's great. And then of course there's a John Williams impulse off and he he's fantastic. He knows the vehicles inside and out specially Jeeps and Fords and his brother Nate, one of the finest fabricators I've ever seen as is Jeremy Thompson, Milt son. Do you know Jeremy Yes. Yeah. He now runs eminence off-road is his own business. He split off from his family and, and if you can get in with Jeremy, you've done well, you you'll know your vehicles going to be good. The trouble with him is he's one guy. And he has so many people around the country that, that want to use him that he's, you know, busy. Absolutely. Then there's Johnny Roca down in Southern Cal. I mean all these guys and so many others. I mean, Jason Pauley, Shannon Campbell, you know, it's just net bake and guys I'm so sorry that I haven't mentioned you, you know, other ones, I mean our club, we were in our club. 

Phil Howell: Did you met, do you remember our club Oh yes. Letter R. That was we, we started a club and it was a Walker was in it Harold off packer million, Joel Randall cars had, Morris Hanson. John Curry was in it. the guys from Nebraska, like rich Hudson, they were all friends. Joel. And, and do you know Morris Morris Anson Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They they're all buddies in Nebraska. They're all the Nebraska guys rookie came in later. I mean, once they started competing Jeff, I mean what a natural driver, he, he is and was Chris Durham, you know, Chris and I didn't interact that much. He was in different circles that as was I, and we'd see each other once in a while. And I was spotting people up Pritchard one day and here comes Chris and, and they go, Hey, get this. 

Phil Howell: Whoever was down, you know, helping people up to the point where I was said, Hey, help this guy get up there I go. Now I go, that's Chris Durham. He doesn't need any help from me. And then he leaned out, he goes, yeah, you can help. So I helped spot him, but I still don't think he needed anything. But you know, his low center of gravity Jeeps, we were all building them. They seem to get higher and higher as we wanted more clearance. And then Chris built these ones with no lift at all that work. Great. And inspired me to build a couple of LCG Jeeps. My trouble was as I like to go fast too. There was no up travel. At least in the ones I built. Maybe Chris had better engineering, but mine, what bought what top would bottom out, excuse me, right away. 

Phil Howell: As soon as you hit stuff going fast, I went back to kind of happy, medium, just a little bit of lift, but Chris really influenced the industry with a lot of his designs, his, his hood and his, well know that he came out with a hood and no fenders thing. And then Shannon Campbell built that. And I don't know if Chris and Shannon talked or anything, but Shannon had that great. Remember the hood and the fenders The high-fat lines. Yep. Yeah. High lines. these guys I'd like to go four wheeling with them again, the ones who are still alive. So guys, if any of you watching this, you've probably tuned out long before because of my mouth. Let's get together and go four wheel. And again, I say meet it at Danny Grimes during Easter Jeep next year, if they allow us to absolutely Danny, I mean, he's not only a great dryer. 

Phil Howell: He's a crack-up to be with, you know, I mean, I think it was Danny that one year we were at the bottom of white knuckle and it was just a bunch of friends. So it wasn't a run. I think it was Danny and it might not have been, but I'm pretty sure it was him. He gets up to the bottom of the, the big vertical part. And so he gets up and he's off and then he floors it and that Jeep leaked it. It was like a Harrier jet it leap vertically. And then just landed on the top of the ledge. He didn't touch the ledge. That was hilarious. And then he's just sitting there. Everybody's laughing. I think that was Danny. He might say that wasn't me, 

Phil Howell: But yeah, it was, it was fun. Phil caller, you know, you had a samurai at one time, I think didn't ya. Nope, not me. Not you. I went through a period, had a couple and we built them, Ken Francisco Zuke and I put them together. Dan, Nick had a, had a samurai and then Phil, Dean Bullock. I remember he had a stretched one. That was pretty cool, but there was a little period there in the mid nineties when I had the samurai and three of us Zuke and me and Dan went down to Farmington to just wheel with Phil and, and Jim Peterson and Harold off those guys. And they have an obstacle on one of the trails called riff Raff. And they called it that because they said, Oh, it's too hard. It keeps the riff Raff off the trail. So we're at the end of the line. They put us at the end cause the cheesy samurais and all three of us get up there and feel comes down and Phil collard and says, well, we got to change the name. Now the riff Raff got up. The truth, but I got

Phil Howell: Him back cause a little further up. He, he got stuck and couldn't go back or come forward up a Hill. So I pulled him up there with my samurai and got picture people got pictures of it on the strap. 

Big Rich Klein: And I've always 

Phil Howell: Threatened him with those pictures. I mean, I haven't talked to him for years now, but I always straight in one of these days, I'm going to publish that. He goes, fuck me, pushing you with my strap. But, but it was, it was fun, man. It was a great story for wheeling has always been a lot of fun and it still is absolutely well, so, 

Big Rich Klein: Well, thank you so much for spending the time with us and sharing your history and your experiences and, and everything that you've done in the industry to get us to where we're at nowadays, you know, we're going to have to pick up the conversation again, down the road and do this maybe in person. I hope that, we can make that happen. 

Phil Howell: I'd be happy to do it. And I apologize. My mouth runs. 

Big Rich Klein: No, don't worry about it. You are a great interview. 

Phil Howell: Yeah. Okay. Well thanks. And, and for everybody I didn't mention, well, you'll edit this, but I do feel bad because I know there's a ton of other people that I haven't mentioned that deserve to be mentioned. 

Big Rich Klein: A lot of them will end up on conversations with big rich in the future. 

Phil Howell: Well, good. And they'll forget to mention me. So then I don't know. 

Big Rich Klein: It all wash out in the end. Yeah. 

Phil Howell: Yeah. All right. Well thanks rich. And really, if you get down here, like if you're headed down to see your son in Southern Utah, just live in Eagle mountain now. Okay. And so maybe give me a call. Maybe we get together for lunch or dinner or something or stop by or whatever 

Big Rich Klein: Sounds great. All right. All right, Phil. Thank you very much. 

Phil Howell: Yep. You too. Okay. 

Big Rich Klein: If you enjoy these podcasts, please give us a rating. Share some feedback with us via Facebook or Instagram and share our link among your friends who might be like-minded. Well, that brings this episode to an end book. You enjoyed it. We'll catch you next week with conversations with big rich. Thank you very much.